with sadness...
Greg Ryan
while cave diving on Friday last week. I only knew Bill over the net,
and we had been regular correspondents on cave diving. Ironically
we first made contact when he supplied me with information about the
death of one of my friends in a Florida cave diving accident.
I, for one, will sadly miss him.
If anyone knows of any more details regarding this accident, could you
please forward them to me. I would be particularly interested in any
reports from the NSS or NACD.
Greg Ryan gr...@cs.su.oz.au
I've included below a newspaper report which Joe Clark <jcl...@mailer.fsu.edu>
posted to bit.listserv.scuba-l:
-------------------------------
The following is reprinted without permission from the Tallahassee Democrat,
7/19, B1:
The bodies of two cave divers were recovered Sunday afternoon,
ending two days of searching at a sinkhole in Wakulla County....
According to (the Sheriff's Dept.), one of the bodies at Clearcut
Sink was identified as Bill Mayne, 39, of Tallahassee....the (second)
unidentified victim was a 29-year-old student at Florida State University.
"We're still investigating the case, and the divers' equipment will
be examined. We're also waiting on autopsies," (a spokesman) said. "When
we find out further information, we will be able to comment more."
Autopsies are scheduled for this morning at Tallahassee Memorial
Regional Medical Center.
Officials said both victims at Clearcut Sink had recently received
their certification as cave divers. They had been expected to return from a
diving expedition at 10:30 pm on Friday.
When neither of the divers returned Friday night, a relative
of Mayne's called the Leon County Sheriff's Dept....
Teams of divers, including volunteers, began searching for the two
victims at Clearcut Sink at 10:30 am Saturday and continued until 8 pm.
Springs last year....
Greg Ryan, g10b, xtn 4809
> I've included below a newspaper report which Joe Clark <jcl...@mailer.fsu.edu>
> posted to bit.listserv.scuba-l:
> -------------------------------
I stuffed up with the inclusion of this report in my last posting.
Below is the complete report.
Greg Ryan gr...@cs.su.oz.au
-----------------------------------
The following is reprinted without permission from the Tallahassee Democrat,
7/19, B1:
The bodies of two cave divers were recovered Sunday afternoon,
ending two days of searching at a sinkhole in Wakulla County....
According to (the Sheriff's Dept.), one of the bodies at Clearcut
Sink was identified as Bill Mayne, 39, of Tallahassee....the (second)
unidentified victim was a 29-year-old student at Florida State University.
"We're still investigating the case, and the divers' equipment will
be examined. We're also waiting on autopsies," (a spokesman) said. "When
we find out further information, we will be able to comment more."
Autopsies are scheduled for this morning at Tallahassee Memorial
Regional Medical Center.
Officials said both victims at Clearcut Sink had recently received
their certification as cave divers. They had been expected to return from a
diving expedition at 10:30 pm on Friday.
When neither of the divers returned Friday night, a relative
of Mayne's called the Leon County Sheriff's Dept....
Teams of divers, including volunteers, began searching for the two
victims at Clearcut Sink at 10:30 am Saturday and continued until 8 pm.
The search resumed at 9 am Sunday, and divers first located Mayne's
body downstream, at a depth of 90 feet, and 550 feet inside a cave. (The
spokesman) said divers did not bring Mayne's body to the surface until 5:30
pm, in order to avoid stirring up sediment on the bottom of the cave, which
would have impeded the search for the unidentified victim.
The unidentified FSU student was located 50 feet from a cave opening
at Venture Sink, which connects with Clearcut Sink, at 5:30 pm. His body
was removed from the water upon recovery.
Officials said these were the first sinkhole deaths in the area
since Parker Turner, a world record-setting cave diver, died at Indian
Springs last year....
Eric Marsh
> I just read on the bit.listserv.scuba-l group that Bill Mayne died
> while cave diving on Friday last week. I only knew Bill over the net,
> and we had been regular correspondents on cave diving. Ironically
> we first made contact when he supplied me with information about the
> death of one of my friends in a Florida cave diving accident.
Shit!
> I, for one, will sadly miss him.
I will too.
Anyone have any thoughts about sending something to his family?
eric
Greg Ryan, g10b, xtn 4809
> Anyone have any thoughts about sending something to his family?
The obituary from the Tallahassee Democrat suggested that memorial contributions
could be made to Big Bend Cares, 1341 Cross Creek Way, Tallahassee, FL 32301.
Events like this make the net feel like a very small place. I've already written
to Bill's family, but if you'd like a card or note sent from this group, I'll
coordinate it. If you want to add your name, then mail me as soon as you can.
Include in your mail anything you'd like said, your name/address/etc and I'll put
something together and send it off as soon as possible.
Greg Ryan gr...@cs.su.oz.au
Kris Eckols
> ending two days of searching at a sinkhole in Wakulla County....
> According to (the Sheriff's Dept.), one of the bodies at Clearcut
> Sink was identified as Bill Mayne, 39, of Tallahassee....the (second)
> unidentified victim was a 29-year-old student at Florida State University.
Has the identity of the second diver been released yet? Our club
chairperson is a active cave diver with numerous dives in Florida.
She had met Bill.
--
Ke...@Lilly.Com _
Kris Eckols _| ~-. A Displaced
Lilly Research Labs \, _} Texan.
Indianapolis,IN \(
Joe Clark
I don't have the paper with me now; it was Ariel something--sorry, I will
double-check. Autopsies confirmed death as cause of drowning. Bill's wife
was quoted in the paper as saying he had 150 cave dives under his belt and
was a careful planner. Friends are exploring the area after the memorial
service to try to come up with clues as to what went wrong. The equipment
will be checked. Newspaper didn't say if they had run out of air or what.
Someone was quoted as speculating (based not on incident details but
Bill's personality, I think) that Bill may have been trying to help Ariel.
The paper described their locations independently, and did not say how far
apart they were. Other posters have mentioned the address to which
expressions of condolence might be sent.
His wife said something to this effect: "Bill was not afraid of dying. I'm
so proud of him. I'm sure he went right into the arms of the Lord." (I
will recheck the article and amend this statement if it's seriously
misquoted.)
I also think his family might be warmed by seeing copies of all the messages
on this thread. Looks like Bill was well-liked around the globe.
Joe
---
The REAL Joe Clark NOT: 1. Former Canadian Prime Minister
Florida State University 2. Bat-wielding High-school Disciplinarian
jcl...@mailer.fsu.edu 3. Late Senator from Pennsylvania
904-644-0830 FAX: -6257 4. Subject of "Fare Thee Well" Song
Joe Clark
>double-check. Autopsies confirmed death as cause of drowning. Bill's wife
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^duh
Invert that, wouldja?
Kevin Grover
)
) I also think his family might be warmed by seeing copies of all the messages
) on this thread. Looks like Bill was well-liked around the globe.
)
I was thinking along the same lines. Maybe the person who volunteered
to included peoples name's in a mailing could simply collect and send
the various articles in these threads.
As with most of the people on the net (replying to this tragic news),
I had never met Bill. However, he was very helpful to a query I
posted a year or so ago about a (handicapped) friend who wanted to get
certified.
His presence (in this group at least) will be sorely missed.
- kev
----
Kevin O. Grover | UNLV-ISRI - Information Science Research Institute
gro...@isri.unlv.edu | 4505 S. Maryland Parkway, Las Vegas NV 89154-1017
| (702) 895-4372
John Nall
>> ending two days of searching at a sinkhole in Wakulla County....
>> According to (the Sheriff's Dept.), one of the bodies at Clearcut
>> Sink was identified as Bill Mayne, 39, of Tallahassee....the (second)
>> unidentified victim was a 29-year-old student at Florida State University.
>
>Has the identity of the second diver been released yet? Our club
>chairperson is a active cave diver with numerous dives in Florida.
>She had met Bill.
The second diver was Ariel Goldberg - an FSU student.
An interesting personal follow-up on this, by the way, is that the speculation
is that something happened with Goldberg, and that Bill went to his rescue. It
will probably never be known for sure what happened, I suppose, but I have
previously dove with Goldberg as my "buddy" when we were both taking a Rescue
Diver course. He was a fine person, but, in my judgement, should never have
been certified as a diver. He could just never seem to get it together, and
I told the instructor that I didn't think he should be certified as a Rescue
Diver. The instructor told me later that he didn't in fact, certify him for
that course. Ariel didn't even seem to LIKE diving - it seemed to me more that
he was trying to prove something to someone; perhaps to himself.
Anyway, it raises an interesting question for me - if you're going to go diving
with someone, how far should you go in knowing what sort of diver they are?!!
John
Eric W. Mitchell
: The second diver was Ariel Goldberg - an FSU student.
: An interesting personal follow-up on this, by the way, is that the speculation
: is that something happened with Goldberg, and that Bill went to his rescue.
Is there ANY substance to this speculation? Any facts at all from the
site that support this idea? Somebody's guess is often asserted as a
accepted fact after being passed through two or three people.
: It will probably never be known for sure what happened, I suppose, but I have
: previously dove with Goldberg as my "buddy" when we were both taking a Rescue
: Diver course. He was a fine person, but, in my judgement, should never have
: been certified as a diver. He could just never seem to get it together, and
: I told the instructor that I didn't think he should be certified as a Rescue
: Diver. The instructor told me later that he didn't in fact, certify him for
: that course. Ariel didn't even seem to LIKE diving - it seemed to me more
: that he was trying to prove something to someone; perhaps to himself.
The above anecdotes strongly imply that Ariel Goldberg "must have
been" responsible for the trajedy. This may indeed be the case, but I
can't help but think that is is very prejudicial and somewhat
inappropriate to make such statements in this context without more
information on what happened. What ever happened to "innocent until
proven guilty"?
Who knows, maybe Bill was at fault, maybe they were equally at fault,
or maybe it was just a blameless accident.
I've heard that Ariel was much closer to the exit than Bill was. This
could mean that they got seperated and lost, or that Bill had a
major failure and Ariel couldn't find his way out alone. But who knows?
I would encourage people to refrain from this kind of speculation.
Until more information is revealed (if ever), we really have NO IDEA
what happened.
BTW, I don't want to get into an argument about Ariel's skills with
anyone. As far as I'm concerned, this is simply an exercise in
pointing fingers.
Eric
--
==============================================================================
# Eric Mitchell | If HAL ran Usenet: "I'm sorry Dave. #
# | I'm afraid I can't post that." #
# MacDonald Dettwiler & Assoc. |--------------------------------------------#
# Email: e...@mda.ca | Standard disclaimers apply. #
==============================================================================
John Nall
>John Nall (na...@mu.cs.fsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: The second diver was Ariel Goldberg - an FSU student.
>
>: An interesting personal follow-up on this, by the way, is that the speculation
>: is that something happened with Goldberg, and that Bill went to his rescue.
>
>Is there ANY substance to this speculation? Any facts at all from the
>site that support this idea? Somebody's guess is often asserted as a
>accepted fact after being passed through two or three people.
The speculation was stated in the news story about the incident. As to
where the reporter got the idea, I have not the slightest notion. My
recollection is that the story stated something along the lines of "local
divers speculate that ... "
>: It will probably never be known for sure what happened, I suppose, but I have
>: previously dove with Goldberg as my "buddy" when we were both taking a Rescue
>: Diver course. He was a fine person, but, in my judgement, should never have
>: been certified as a diver. He could just never seem to get it together, and
>: I told the instructor that I didn't think he should be certified as a Rescue
>: Diver. The instructor told me later that he didn't in fact, certify him for
>: that course. Ariel didn't even seem to LIKE diving - it seemed to me more
>: that he was trying to prove something to someone; perhaps to himself.
>
>The above anecdotes strongly imply that Ariel Goldberg "must have
>been" responsible for the trajedy. This may indeed be the case, but I
>can't help but think that is is very prejudicial and somewhat
>inappropriate to make such statements in this context without more
>information on what happened. What ever happened to "innocent until
>proven guilty"?
The above "anecdote" is not speculation - it is fact. One can draw his or
her own conclusions from it.
>I would encourage people to refrain from this kind of speculation.
>Until more information is revealed (if ever), we really have NO IDEA
>what happened.
As previously stated, what I said about Ariel's diving skills came from personal
observation over the period of a fairly rigorous course, during which I had the
opportunity to not only observe, but team up with him. I stand by my conclusions.
Now, as to the value of speculation: idle speculation, with no facts, as to the
cause of tragedy can indeed be not only a waste of time, but harmful. On the
other hand, intelligent speculation as to what caused something, using the known
facts, can often help in keeping someone else from having a similar tragedy. A
good example is the fairly recent thread on the shark incident at Cozumel (I think
that was where it was). Personally, I got some valuable tips from the various
informed guesses (using known data, such as the diver being near the wall, a light
apparently being dropped, etc, etc) as to what happened.
So - if I offended anyone, I apologise (but don't retract).
John
is...@ricevm1.rice.edu
na...@mu.cs.fsu.edu (John Nall) writes:
>
>The second diver was Ariel Goldberg - an FSU student.
>
>An interesting personal follow-up on this, by the way, is that the speculation
>is that something happened with Goldberg, and that Bill went to his rescue. It
>will probably never be known for sure what happened, I suppose, but I have
>previously dove with Goldberg as my "buddy" when we were both taking a Rescue
>Diver course. He was a fine person, but, in my judgement, should never have
>been certified as a diver. He could just never seem to get it together, and
>I told the instructor that I didn't think he should be certified as a Rescue
>Diver. The instructor told me later that he didn't in fact, certify him for
>that course. Ariel didn't even seem to LIKE diving - it seemed to me more that
>he was trying to prove something to someone; perhaps to himself.
>
>Anyway, it raises an interesting question for me - if you're going to go diving
>with someone, how far should you go in knowing what sort of diver they are?!!
>
I will use a personal experience with a friend of mine. Before I became certi-
fied and knew something about diving, this friend once told me that she has had
THREE near-fatal diving mishaps. Since I knew that she did not dive regularly,
and that I have yet to go through a diving class, this did concern me about
whether I really wanted to learn how to dive or not. I still went ahead and
signed up for the class. My instructor had been diving for over 15 years with
some 10,000 dives in all conditions WITHOUT any problems. After completing
the class and getting my C-card, I began to question why my friend could have
such problems.
I did find out about the first mishap. Without going into details, it occured
BEFORE she was certified when her brother let her put gear on and jump into
the water when they were in Cozumel. The problem was that her brother forgot to
tell her about equalization, continuous breathing, etc not that he should have
let her go down in the first place. The other two, I do not know about except
that they occured AFTER she was 'certified'. I know this much, I will NOT dive
with her unless she decides to clean the slate and retake the Open Water 1
class. And I told her that.
Personally, when I know that my life may depend on the competence of my dive
partner, if my gut feeling tells me not to dive with this person, then I do
not dive with them. If it hurts their feelings, so be it. Putting my life at
risk is NOT worth it to me.
Just my own personal thoughts.
-Mitch-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitchell Istre, Programmer/Analyst *
Computing/Information Systems, * IS...@RUSIS.RICE.EDU
Rice University, *
Houston, Texas *
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dillon Pyron
In article <CAKv0...@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, na...@mu.cs.fsu.edu (John Nall) writes:
>The second diver was Ariel Goldberg - an FSU student.
>
>An interesting personal follow-up on this, by the way, is that the speculation
>is that something happened with Goldberg, and that Bill went to his rescue. It
>will probably never be known for sure what happened, I suppose, but I have
>previously dove with Goldberg as my "buddy" when we were both taking a Rescue
>Diver course. He was a fine person, but, in my judgement, should never have
>been certified as a diver. He could just never seem to get it together, and
>I told the instructor that I didn't think he should be certified as a Rescue
>Diver. The instructor told me later that he didn't in fact, certify him for
>that course. Ariel didn't even seem to LIKE diving - it seemed to me more that
>he was trying to prove something to someone; perhaps to himself.
I changed my mind, I am going to flame.
This is ignorant speculation with no basis in fact. I don't care if he was a
Bozo with two left left feet, this kind of crap does nothing to help. Two
divers are dead, and ragging on one will not bring the other back. The only
question I want answered is "how can we learn from these deaths"?
As an aside, the statements you made, were Areil alive, would be slander. I
personally wouldn't feel comfortable with that.
>
>Anyway, it raises an interesting question for me - if you're going to go diving
>with someone, how far should you go in knowing what sort of diver they are?!!
Bill never struck me as the kind of person who took dumb risks. Calculated
risks, yes, but not bad ones.
--
Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here) |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |The eyes are windows to the soul, but the
py...@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |lips and nailbeds are windows to the
PADI AI-54909 |circulatory system.
Dan Kell
requirements.
1. I want to see a C-card.
2. I like to look at their log. This isn't mandatory but makes me wander
why someone wouldn't have their log with them.
3. I ask the following questions:
A. How many total dive do you have?
B. How many dives in the last six months? last month?
C. Where did you dive last?
D. When did you last dive in conditions like todays?
E. When did you last dive in an environment like todays?
Questions A and B give you some idea of the person experience level and
current level of competency. Some body with 10,000 dives who hasn't been
diving in two years may not be up to speed. On the other hand somebody
with 50 dives and 10 in the last month might not either. But their more
likely to be.
Question C is real important to diving in the Monterey area. Beach entries
and exit in a full 1/4" wetsuit are not to be taken lightly. Some one who
has only dove in warm water or even cold water without a surf entry may
not be the best person to take to an advanced dive site for their first
dive with you.
Questions D and E give you an idea of a person capabilities to dive the sites
you wish to dive. Some one who is used to diving out of a boat all the time
might not be up to Monastary on a marginal day. Even though that person is
a cold water diver.
I found out the hard way about diving with strangers. No one got hurt but
I missed out on some great diving because I made assumptions about my
buddys abilities based on what he had said. Not on what really mattered.
I try very hard not to brag about my abilities and tend to err on the
conservative side when I talk about what I can do. I'd rather dive at
an easy site with someone than not dive at all. Or get someone, self included,
hurt. I'd be willing to answer the same questions or show my log and card
to anyone who wishes to dive with me. Its a courtesy.
--
Dan Kell
email to d...@resonex.com
If you can distinguish between good advice and bad advice, you probably don't
need any advice at all.
Alan Wright
|>
|> >Anyway, it raises an interesting question for me - if you're going to go diving
|> >with someone, how far should you go in knowing what sort of diver they are?!!
|>
|> Bill never struck me as the kind of person who took dumb risks. Calculated
|> risks, yes, but not bad ones.
|> --
|> Dillon Pyron
However, regardless of who was initially at fault, both divers must have made
mistakes - assuming no equipment failures. I am especially keen to hear about
any equipment analsys.
Whoever got into trouble made a mistake (possibly both). If only one got into
trouble and the other tried to rescue him, then the rescuer made a mistake in
judging his air supply. If they were operating to "thirds" then at the depths
reported there should have been plenty of air to attempt a rescue and still
get out. It must be incredibly difficult to just swim away and leave a friend
to die and I would not presume to comment on that. However, assuming he was not
sacrificing himself, he made a mistake, calculated risk or not.
I feel we are woefully short of information. I would be interested in the
following information. Is anyone following this up?
1. What was the dive plan.
2. How far apart were the bodies. From the report it would seem that Bill
was making his way out, so Ariel's location may indicate at least
a minimum penetration distance.
3. Did they have all their knives.
4. Were any of the torches off and did they still have power available.
5. Was anything written on either diver's slate.
6. What equipment were they carrying; tanks and capacities. This may give
an indication of how much time they had to correct whatever went wrong.
By time, I mean relative to the dive duration, not necessarily minutes.
7. What is Clearcut like inside. It took quite a while to locate Bill even
though he was near the exit. Does this indicate that the cave is a "maze
of twisty little passages".
8. Had either diver used their emergency reels.
I know of at least two incidents which illustrate the different characters
and risks which divers will go to. One involved Martin Farr and a partner
whose name I can't remember. The other involved Sheck Exley and Ken Fulghum
(sp?).
In the Farr incident the buddy was left behind and he died. I think Farr
later dived to recover the body. In the Exley incident, Fulghum lost most
of his air due to a regulator failure at the furthest extent of their
penetration. They turned back and twice they ran out of air completely before
reaching their stage bottles, and twice they had to breath-hold to reach
them. When they reached the exit they didn't have enough air to complete
decompression so Fulghum surfaced briefly to shout for more air. Both divers
exited safely, but Exley put his life in extreme danger to help his buddy.
That dive, in the Atlantida Cave (Lanzarote) set a new penetration world
record.
The full stories are in the book:
The Darkness Beckons by Martin Farr.
Diadem Books, 1991, 2nd ed.
ISBN 0-906371-87-2
This is a really good read with some excellent photos and a fair history
of world cave diving development. I would recommend it to anyone interested
in cave diving. I can give a more full account if anyone wishes.
-- Alan
--------------------------------------------
awr...@gssec.bt.co.uk (Alan Wright)
BT, Software Engineering Centre, Glasgow, UK
--------------------------------------------
mdchachi
>John Nall (na...@mu.cs.fsu.edu) wrote:
>: It will probably never be known for sure what happened, I suppose, but I have
>: previously dove with Goldberg as my "buddy" when we were both taking a Rescue
>: Diver course. He was a fine person, but, in my judgement, should never have
>: been certified as a diver. He could just never seem to get it together, and
>: I told the instructor that I didn't think he should be certified as a Rescue
>: Diver. The instructor told me later that he didn't in fact, certify him for
>: that course. Ariel didn't even seem to LIKE diving - it seemed to me more
>: that he was trying to prove something to someone; perhaps to himself.
>The above anecdotes strongly imply that Ariel Goldberg "must have
>been" responsible for the trajedy. This may indeed be the case, but I
>can't help but think that is is very prejudicial and somewhat
>inappropriate to make such statements in this context without more
>information on what happened. What ever happened to "innocent until
>proven guilty"?
I disagree. The key statement above are the words "in my judgment."
As a person who has previously dove with Goldberg, Mr. Nall is much more
capable of forming any kind intelligent OPINION (not fact) as most
of the rest of us, and he was just being kind enough to inform the
rest of us about his personal experiences and impressions.
As a forum for relating personal experiences as well as any opinions
which may subsequently form as a result of said experiences, I believe
that the post was entirely justified.
But, hey, that's just MY OPINION...
--
******************************************************
Mike Chachich -------> mdch...@vela.acs.oakland.edu
is...@ricevm1.rice.edu
py...@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron) writes:
>
>This is ignorant speculation with no basis in fact. I don't care if he was a
>Bozo with two left left feet, this kind of crap does nothing to help. Two
>divers are dead, and ragging on one will not bring the other back. The only
>question I want answered is "how can we learn from these deaths"?
I say AMEN to that. Reading the posts about this incident has reminded me of
the posts after the Cozumel shark incident. It started out as a discussion
on what may have been the cause of the deaths involved and somehow turned into
a flame war. Lost somewhere in the hoopla was the fact that someone died. In
this case, one of the people was someone who struck all of us (or least, my-
self) as a very careful diver with some 150 dives in caves no less. This man
had my respect. As in the Cozumel incident, we need to find out how and what
happened so WE do not end up joining Bill, Ariel, and Mary ourselves. I am
certain that the reef where they are now diving tops anything we will ever
see here on Earth, but I do not wish to dive that reef just yet.
Alan Wright
|> ... I will NOT dive
|> with her unless she decides to clean the slate and retake the Open Water 1
|> class. And I told her that.
|>
|> Personally, when I know that my life may depend on the competence of my dive
|> partner, if my gut feeling tells me not to dive with this person, then I do
|> not dive with them. If it hurts their feelings, so be it. Putting my life at
|> risk is NOT worth it to me.
|>
|> -Mitch-
In cave diving the emphasis is a little different. Every cave/wreck diver
should consider himself self-sufficient. There is no real buddy system in
caves except by agreement between the divers concerned. You should not rely
on the competence of another diver if you get into trouble. If your buddy
saves you then that is very nice of him but it should not be the expected
thing. In the event of an incident each diver is responsible for himself
first.
I was on a wreck dive with a Spanish diver. We were getting near the end of
the dive and my computer showed 10 mins decompression at 3m. We were at 40m
(~130ft). I checked his contents gauge just before ascent - he had
20 Bar (~300 psi) left. I couldn't believe he hadn't told me, but it was
his problem, there was no way I was going to break deco because he was an
idiot. As it happened I still had 80 Bar (~1000 psi) left so there was no
problem. We started with 12L tanks with 220 Bar so I was within thirds.
I don't know what the hell he was doing with his air - feeding it to the
fish no doubt.
But had he gotten trapped on the wreck and I had to surface for help I am
not sure if I would have risked breaking deco for him.
-- Alan.
David T. Truslow
Bill's death affected many of us and like most survivors, I'd like to know
what happened. Will there we an inquest? What's the next step in the accident
investigation and when will the findings be available?
PAX
Dave
John Nall
>In cave diving the emphasis is a little different. Every cave/wreck diver
>should consider himself self-sufficient. There is no real buddy system in
>caves except by agreement between the divers concerned. You should not rely
>on the competence of another diver if you get into trouble. If your buddy
>saves you then that is very nice of him but it should not be the expected
>thing. In the event of an incident each diver is responsible for himself
>first.
I'm glad you pointed that out. All of the sloppy sentimentality is beginning
to get a little deep around here. "That great reef in the sky!" Ugh.
A corollary, IMHO, is to never dive with a family member. Better for one
to die than both, but with a family member you're probably gonna give it
a try anyway.
JN
(p.s. No - I didn't forget the smileys. There aren't any).
--
John W. Nall | Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
na...@mailer.scri.fsu.edu | Florida State University, Tallahassee, Florida
"It's north you may run to the rime-ringed sun,
or south to the blind Horn's hate...."
Craig Campbell
One persons evaluation of Gabriel's past skills deleted....
>I changed my mind, I am going to flame.
Please don't.
One person posted a personal evaluation of Ariel's skills. Let that stand
alone unless there is another equally valid evaluation/opinion out there.
I would like to hear facts and details of the incident, as well as results
of investigations. Pointless bickering about what might have happened,
based on virtually no evidence is only harmful.
A summary of what is known, as best I can recall:
1) Two divers are dead. (Cause of death, drowning.)
2) The bodies were found in relatively shallow water (They were in the
shallow side of the cave system. They would have had to pass the
entrance to get from the deep side to the side they were discovered on
-- Source: John Reekie and his recollections of that site).
3) The locations of the bodies were given relative to different entrances,
leading one to suspect (Perhaps incorrectly) that the divers were
separated by a signifcant distance.
4) Bill was an experienced cave diver and knew this system quite well.
5) One person has stated that at one time in the past Gabriel was not the
worlds strongest diver. Since that time, one can assume that Gabriel
took and received Full Cave certification. Full Cave means that you
have the skills to cave dive. Ergo, Gabriel's is as unknown, but we
must assume he knew what he was doing.
6) There has been no indication yet as to any problems on the dive, or
anything that may have contributed to the deaths.
7) There was one report that one of Gabriels reels was attached in an odd
way. Gabriel may have placed it there prior to getting into his gear,
and never needed it during the dive. Conclusion: There is no reason to
consider this a signifcant observation.
>As an aside, the statements you made, were Areil alive, would be slander. I
>personally wouldn't feel comfortable with that.
"slander - false report maliciously report to person's injury; uttering of such
reports, calumny; (Law) false oral defamation (cf. LIBEL)"
I'm no judge, but I don't think that there was any slander, just an
unflattering opinion.
>Bill never struck me as the kind of person who took dumb risks. Calculated
>risks, yes, but not bad ones.
But Bill was human, and subject to narcosis, bad decisions, and mistakes.
Perhaps this combination was his undoing. Or perhaps it was Gabriels'. Or,
perhaps they both made a decision due to some incident during the dive, that
in the end, neither of them could live with.
>Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
craig
--
Craig Campbell | These opinions are entirely the result of a
Systems Engineer | small butterfly crashing into the far side
NCR Canada, | of the planet. Chaos Rules.
an AT&T Company | I speak for no one, except, possibly, myself.