Can you fail ANY courses???
Randy Benoit
doing my Rescue and Medic ...... and continuing on to Dive Master. I've
had a change of heart after my experience during my advanced training. I
dive alone (in my family), my husband does not dive, thus I am always on a
constant look out for dive buddies. In my Advanced course I was paired up
with a woman, who was in the course because her husband booked them on a
dive trip that required Advanced OW certification. She didn't want to be
there. Our first dive was a Drysuit dive.... no problems. Our second
dive was a navigation dive..... Silt was very heavy and visibility
sucked. My buddy freaked when visibility was almost 0 inches. She went
straight to the top. I followed and she told me how uncomfortable she was
and could we do our navigating on the surface. We did , we told our
instructors, and they agreed it was hard to see, and asked did we pretty
much get the hang of navigating when we were on the surface? When we said
yes, they said that it wasn't an issue. Next dive was a Night dive....
she freaked again, we lost our instuctors during our tour, she grabbed me,
her eyes were wide open , I tried to get her to look at me but to no
avail, she went straight up again. We met at the top and she said she was
just too scared, we had a 1hr surface swim. This really upset me, I loved
the night dive, and it pissed me off that it was cut off, so quickly. The
next day I had one on one talk with my instructor, I explained my
concerns. They buddied up a DM with us for the next two dives. The deep
water dive.... the DM had to calm her down ( probably due to nitrogen
narcosis), at least that is what they thought. The last dive , a Wreck
dive. We had to go down a port hole, and down a completely dark
corridor. This time the DM followed my buddy and I followed the DM. My
dive buddy freaked, tried to go back up, hit the DM continued swimming
ended up hitting me, by this time the DM had grabbed her leg and was
slowing her down. He managed to calm her once they got out of the
porthole. I got a nice goose egg on my head from that experience. Then
the time came for us to receive our temporary card. I was curious what
would happen with my dive buddy......... well they shook her hand,
congratulated her and gave her the temporary card. I was shocked. It
scared me that maybe some day in the future I may be buddied up with
someone like her. My instructor phoned me to ask if I wanted to be in the
January Dive Master course, I said I needed to think about it.
Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
more training before they got their card? I don't know if I want to work
in a business, that someone could be killed because of my lack of training
them. Would I have control of whether I pass or fail them? ( as an
instructor, I know the DM doesn't make the decision) Does anyone who
shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
such a long thread.
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Randy & Lisa Benoit _/
_/ ben...@cadvision.com _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Jim Kearns
the navigation dives. Simply put, I was awful. The instructor had an
approach that was summed up as "well, you're a certified diver, you've
read the book...go do it." He stayed on shore and offered no advice.
A touchy situation that got very frustrating when he hinted that he
was not satisfied enought to sign off on the dive. I told him that I
wanted to relaxe a bit and work on the skills again during day 2.
The next day I still sucked, but demonstrated enough skills that he
and I felt that signing the temp card would not be a lie. As I drove
home that day I became a bit concerned about the process. Returning
to the shop the next day, I pulled the Course Development Director
asid and had a heart-to-heart chat about the whole thing. I said I
found the instructor's attitude inappropriate, frustrating and even
dangerous. I also acknowledged that my performance was not very good
either. The shop - much to their credit - offered to allow me to
atten their next AOW trip and re-do the work. I accepted, and while
I'm still not great with the compass, I'm not at least competent. (A
different instructor with a very different approach helped.)
How does this relate to your question?
1) It was implied that I could fail the course if the instructor felt
I failed to meet the requirements.
2) Maybe, and hopefully, the instructor approached the student after
the weekend was over and offered to provide additional training.
As an aside, obviously I now have a dive shop where I'll take
additional classes and will really have to work to lose my equipment
purchases. I do love when a business understands the concept of
customer service and acts on it.
Happy Bubbles,
Jim
"Diver8"
Mike Berke
ben...@huey.cadvision.com (Randy Benoit) writes:
>she freaked again, we lost our instuctors during our tour, she grabbed
Randy,
I usually dive alone, but based on your posting, I would be
comfortable & proud to have you as a dive buddy.
Advanced diving is not for yuppies punching their ticket. I hope
that:
a) The doofus lady that graduated from your class never comes near me
in the water
b) The dive instructors that graduated her read this newsgroup
c) You get your advanced cert.
Good luck, and good diving. Find a better group of instructors.
-Mike Berke
(I wish I lived near warm water!!)
Thomas Brettinger
>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>more training before they got their card?
When I did my Open Water, two people of an earlier course and one of my
course where asked to do some more training. They finally got their cards,
after having that extra training.
Thomas
--
E-Mail: tho...@marian.RoBIN.de "Es kommt die Zeit, in der das Wünschen
IRC Nick: Wish wieder hilft." -- Die Toten Hosen
Rick Williams
>
Has anyone heard of a
> diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
> in a business, that someone could be killed because of my lack of training
> them. Would I have control of whether I pass or fail them? ( as an
> instructor, I know the DM doesn't make the decision) Does anyone who
> shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
> can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
> such a long thread.
Hi:
For what it is worth I've failed aproximately 16 students over 15 years and
had many many attend additional dives and or classroom work.
I have seen exactly the same situation you described many times. Despite
what the instructors involved say, it's lazyness on their part that causes
it. Over the years, I've only had a couple of students who requested
certification so the common arguement that it would cause problems to make
a student do additional work isn't in my opinion a valid one. It's just
a matter that the instructor doesn't want to put in the additional time and
effort to produce a quality diver!
If you want a worse example, I was recently told of an instructor who was
certifying wreck divers in a stripper pit after they dived on a 24 foot
boat and an 18' school bus in 19 feet of water!
As far as being in the water during advanced class navigation runs, here
is my opinion on that. First, how do students get out of a basic program
and not have compass skills to begin with? I consider the advanced Nav
class to be just that... advanced! Now if a student is having obvious
problems, then on a second dive or whenever the problem becomes apparent,
I'll get in the water and see what is going on. But, you are certified,
and a properly layed out course can be followed from the surface.
Regarding the DM program. In most cases the DM program is considered the
entry level professional course and therefore the standards are much
stricter. However, based on your experiences with this shop, I'd suggest
taking a DM course somewhere else. I can only speak on how my DM courses
are conducted and they tend to be a real bear to get through. If you are
in a DM program and they let standards get passed over, get your money back
and run!
Best
Rick Williams, DCSI #625
Thomas Scott
>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>more training before they got their card? I don't know if I want to work
>in a business, that someone could be killed because of my lack of training
>them. Would I have control of whether I pass or fail them? ( as an
>instructor, I know the DM doesn't make the decision) Does anyone who
>shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
>can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
>such a long thread.
>
>--
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/ Randy & Lisa Benoit _/
> _/ ben...@cadvision.com _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Yes, its possible to fail Rescue. Rare, but possible.
Capt. Tom Scott
SHIPWRECK EXPLORATIONS & DOCUMENTATIONS
Key Largo, Florida U.S.A.
Photog
In an ideal situation, the diver doesn't get into the water unless they
want to. It sounds like the diver was lukewarm, at best, about taking the
AOW class. Some jitters go away after a bit of time back in the water, but
others accellerate. IMHO, the DM or instructor should've 'screened' this
woman a bit better. The folks in my dive club are pretty tight on who
they let on the boat...almost more scrutiny than we gave our spouses
before going to the chapel. And even after we leave the dock, if someone
seems nervous, unfocused, or is trying to mask an illness, they're either
urged to sit it out or tied to the wheelhouse. I'm not sure why this sort
of scrutiny wasn't enforced at the training level. It's just as much a
part of the safety check as is making sure you're tank valve is turned on.
I would have a heart-to-heart chat with your instructor and shop (if
applicable) and perhaps consider changing outfits. And, if you get a
chance, I'd seek out that woman and let her know that it's OK to say no
to a dive...or dive trip. Sometimes a buddy really needs to hear that
sort of reinforcment.
A certain percentage of the population is made up of bozos. Don't let it
change your direction. You'll be better equipped to make decisions that
deal with certifying individuals that are borderline or worse, and you
may turn out to be the one who puts the brakes on a facility's attempts
to certify a diver who either needs more supervised time OR needs to take
up another hobby.
hang in there,
Victoria
Mike Johnson
ben...@huey.cadvision.comº says...
It sounds like the instructor you had should have their C-card pulled.
I think I have been on dive trips that had some of their students.
If a student gets a C-card and doesn't know what they are doing they
not only indanger their life but evey diver around that tries to help
them. My advice to you is find a different class to continue your
SCUBA education. One that is not so concerned about the money they as
they are concerned as to the training.
Have a safe dive!!
cooldu2@undefined
>>would happen with my dive buddy......... well they shook her hand,
>>congratulated her and gave her the temporary card. I was shocked. It
>>scared me that maybe some day in the future I may be buddied up with
>>someone like her. My instructor phoned me to ask if I wanted to be in the
>>January Dive Master course, I said I needed to think about it.
You deserve to be scared. I wouldn't want to buddy up with someone who's
not properly certified. Instructors like those should be avoided at all cost. The
nerve to even ask you!
>>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>>more training before they got their card?
Yes to both questions. One of our batch mates had to go back and do additional
open water dives with our instructor. He also had to pass the written exam. Another
one just couldn't hack it, missed a lot of the lectures and pool sessions. Our
instructor thought that this student would put himself and others in danger, and so he
had to withhold his card.
>>I don't know if I want to work in a business, that someone could be killed because of my
>>lack of training them. Would I have control of whether I pass or fail them? ( as an
>>instructor, I know the DM doesn't make the decision) Does anyone who
>>shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
>>can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
>>such a long thread.
I am blessed to have had a dive instructor who doesn't make a living by teaching scuba
diving. Independently well off, teaching is just fun for him. He taught over a dozen of
us for free! Anyone he felt needed more time in the water had to spend that time with him.
Anyone who couldn't meet the minimum standards and could put himself and others in
danger flunked. All of us had to pass the written exam--no exemptions. He had the
correct attitude--he didn't want a student's death pinned on him. He thought of us as
his kids. Now if all dive instructors were like him, we'd see less diving accidents.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool Dude II
coo...@ibm.net
"Nakalimutan sa sarap, sa huli ang hirap."
- Famous Filipino saying
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rolf M. Koksvik
to repeat until he is satisfied though, and then he will give them their
certification. If, and only if he is satisfied with their performance.
This summer I saw him fail a Divemaster for inadequate navigation during
a Night Diver Specialty course. But I also know the type of instructors you
refer to, and I think there are too many of them. Stick in there and you
might be able to influence the system.
-------
Rolf M. Koksvik, ESA/ESTEC, Noordwijk, The Netherlands
rkok...@vmprofs.estec.esa.nl
Martin T Seitzinger
>ben...@huey.cadvision.com (Randy Benoit) writes:
>
>>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>>more training before they got their card?
>
>course where asked to do some more training. They finally got their cards,
>after having that extra training.
>
>Thomas
>--
> E-Mail: tho...@marian.RoBIN.de "Es kommt die Zeit, in der das Wünschen
> IRC Nick: Wish wieder hilft." -- Die Toten Hosen
When we took our course at the YMCA, one of the students was taking the
class over because the instructors felt that her skills were not good
enough to give her a C-card. I believe that she didn't even get to the
checkout dive before they told her that she would have to redo the
course (no charge).
Marty
--
Ian Geraint Jones
>>shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
>>can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
>>such a long thread.
>>
>> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>> _/ Randy & Lisa Benoit _/
>> _/ ben...@cadvision.com _/
>> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>
>It sounds like the instructor you had should have their C-card pulled.
>I think I have been on dive trips that had some of their students.
>If a student gets a C-card and doesn't know what they are doing they
>not only indanger their life but evey diver around that tries to help
>them. My advice to you is find a different class to continue your
>SCUBA education. One that is not so concerned about the money they as
>they are concerned as to the training.
>
>Have a safe dive!!
>
This is one of the cool things about the BSAC system (British Sub Aqua Club)
and many other CMAS bodies, is that you are normally taught through a club
(whose instructors are nationally qualified) when you cannot do something you
have all the time in the world to get it right. They will fail you and say
don't worry we wll go over this again, do some practice and you can try next
week, by next week you'll be doing it blindfold , e.g. my recent Dive Leader
rescue test, 1/2 was right but I failed due to my surface towing & AV having
picked up some bad habits, my instructor was not going to pass me until its
100% I'll get to do it again soon.
However I realise in US most training is PADI system and you don't have such a
clb system its all far more commercialised, a friend of mine who is a PADI DM
andworked over the summer in a Dive School in Cornwall said they failed several
people. Apparently when you fail something with PADI you should be issued with
a referal which will tell whatever school you go to next what you have left to
do.
Your dive centre should have given the other diver a referal I believe. All I
cansay is I don't want to dive with the Lady you described its people like her
or rather her instructors that give PADI a bad name.
Ian Geraint Jones
BSAC Sports Diver
IANTD Basic Nitrox
______________________________________________________________________________
Ian Geraint Jones ----------------------------------
Alias Taffy or E (for Ian) | /\/\ White |
| O---O \ ____ __ |
EMAIL - em9...@brunel.ac.uk | >__ |____ | // __|//\\__\ |
TEL - 0181 573 3367 | \ \ / | | // \\//--/ |
01792 201464 (Home) |----\ \____| \/ /____//-------|
80 Gabalfa Rd.,Sketty, |. . .-----\ Red Dragon / . . .|
Swansea, SA2 8NA |. . . . . / /________/ /\ . . . |
|. . . . / / . . . / /\ \ . . .|
WEB PAGE | . . .>_/__/ . . .>_/__/ >\_\Green|
Here you can find diving info |__________________________________|
personal info & Wales info CYMRU - WALES
http://http1.brunel.ac.uk:8080/~em93igj/ Welsh Flag
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Gregory
>>==========Randy Benoit, 11/4/95==========
>> <snip>
>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>>more training before they got their card?
Randy,
Yes, students do fail and yes some students are required to return for more
training. I've been a Y instructor for 18 years and have had to do both for
al levels of training. As has been stated before here many times, "it depends
on the instructor". When a student does not complete the requirments for the
course, I always offer to help them with further training and dives. It's only
the ones who do not accept that "fail". I won't issue a card unless they can
do the work and I help them any way that I can to accomplish the tasks. Some
continue and get certified, some elect not to, and some elect to find an
instructor who will pass them under any circumstances ( or in some cases can
do a better job with that particular student and their needs than I can ).
HTH
Jim Gregory
YMCA instructor ( I don't get paid and I don't sell equipment )
Views and opinions expressed are mine and do not reflect
my empoyer's or client's.
Ian Geraint Jones
TLeeMay
ben...@huey.cadvision.com (Randy Benoit) writes:
<BIG SNIP>
>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>more training before they got their card? I don't know if I want to
work
>in a business, that someone could be killed because of my lack of
training
>them.
Randy...
Of course people fail AOW courses, and basic OW courses too. Read on...
another post...<LITTLE SNIP>
>I would have a heart-to-heart chat with your instructor and shop (if
>applicable) and perhaps consider changing outfits. And, if you get a
>chance, I'd seek out that woman and let her know that it's OK to say no
>to a dive...or dive trip. Sometimes a buddy really needs to hear that
>sort of reinforcment.
>
>Victoria
Damned good point Victoria...
The things experienced during the AOW core dives are not "normal",
especially for people who don't want to do them. Since she did not want to
be there in the first place (as stated earlier in Randy's post) , she
should not have been in the class. Just because her husband has booked a
trip on an advanced/experienced required excursion (probably a liveaboard
or something more adventurous) doesn't mean she should flyby an AOW course
and risk her or her buddy's safety and health.
My wife just completed training for her initial OW certification. It took
_US_ six months for her to decide whether or not she really wanted to try.
I did not force her to take the class beacause I may or may not have
booked at trip to Bonaire and want to take her along (actually, we're
going to Coz Thanksgiving week).
In my initial OW training, 8 of our 17 class members were either washed
out (for lack of a better term) or were asked to return and take the class
again... from the start! Of the eight people who had the aformendtioned
problem, I am pleased to say that 5 had re-taken the class are have since
become very good divers to the point I use three of them as buddies on a
regular basis today. The other 3 dropped out of the class and have not
been heard from since (at least not divingin our circles). The diver
trainning organization I have been associating myself with allows a
student to complete any OW or AOW course with a one year period from the
initial first classroom.
In my past AOW class, of the eleven people that took the class, only eight
completed the initial instruction. The greatest difficulty that two had
was that they were completely lost in their nav core (no pun intended) and
one was terrified of being underwater in the dark (no, he was male 38
years of age with 45+ dives at that time). After a few re-tries, the two
nav problem divers were required to take the nav core/module again. Later
they passed at another testing date in low vis (10') and moderate current
conditions. I am not sure if the reluctant night diver ever completed the
course.
Any agency that issues a certification card at any level without the diver
being properly trained, experienced, and tested is releasing a hazzard
into the diving community and is an accident (fatal or not) waiting to
happen. Here's the proof...
I was out yesterday with my buddy diving Farnsworth Banks on the backside
of Catalina Island (CA). Even though we were experienced, we had never
dove the spot before. We did ask for a DM to escort us. After the dive, I
discovered that the two guys next to us on the boat visiting from Japan
had never even dove the California Pacific, much less a potential advanced
location like Farnsworth Banks. We dove in group 1, they dove in group 3.
Both divers say (and their computers confirmed) they dove to 132', but one
shot up a foot out of the water w/BC inflated and 400 lbs of air while the
other made the boat mandatory 3 min/15' safety stop and sucked on the down
tank. His tank was down to 150 lbs.
Both divers were OK afte
NorCaDiver
>the time came for us to receive our temporary card. I was curious what
>would happen with my dive buddy......... well they shook her hand,
>congratulated her and gave her the temporary card. I was shocked. It
Yeah, the Advanced Course is dangerously named. Divers with little
experience coming out of Advanced Courses ARE NOT advanced divers.
Period. The course is little more than guided diving for the purpose of
gaining experience. Kinda hard to fail a course where the point is to
simply be in the course.
>scared me that maybe some day in the future I may be buddied up with
>someone like her. My instructor phoned me to ask if I wanted to be in
the
If you dive much, you can count on being buddied up with someone like her.
Guaranteed! Be forewarned and be prepared.
>January Dive Master course, I said I needed to think about it.
How could you be in the January Divemaster course? You still have Rescue
to complete
first.
>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>more training before they got their card? I don't know if I want to
work
The borderline students I've watched either complete the course through
additional work or the give up. To credit of most instructors, they'll
work with students having problems and rarely charge for this additional
investment of time and effort. Once the instructor and student are both
satisfied with their progress, the student is issued their card. Doesn't
mean they're qualified to crew on the Calypso, though.
>in a business, that someone could be killed because of my lack of
training
>them. Would I have control of whether I pass or fail them? ( as an
Depends on what you mean by control. If, in your judgement, the student
couldn't demonstrate performance of a required skill, you still have work
to do.
>instructor, I know the DM doesn't make the decision) Does anyone who
>shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
>can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
>such a long thread.
In terms of the Rescue course, I recommend it highly. Dive long enough,
the skills taught in that course will come in handy someday. If you don't
have those skills when you need them, you'll get to deal with the
psychological aftermath of being totally impotent in a life and death
situation. The emotional burden is more than enough even when you know
what to do and how to do it. Take the Rescue course and plan on
reviewing/repeating it bi-annually.
Concerning your fear of being teamed with an incompetent dive buddy, take
the Divemaster course for that. It is a course that is intended to
develop your ability to observe and read what's what with one or more
divers of unknown skills. It's far better, if you're teamed up with Bozo
the Diver, knowing that you're going down with a clown.
Rocky Daniels
NorCa...@aol.com
Joe Koontz
questions on the exam then it is the OW instructor that does most of the
failing. We were very lucky to have an OWSI and his wife for our open
water cert part. They gave a damn about people being prepared!
Now I only dive with my wife Gladys as my partner. We have been married
17 years & we both got our OW cert Aug 95. I started diving in the 60s
when there were no C cards. Back in those days I had moderately good
vision and a lot less body. When we did our OW she scared me to death!
(Part of that fear was due to -- I couldn't see beyond my nose without my
bifocals and I was afraid I would lose her). She fought her gear, she
got really pissed over little things. (Oh yes, she has PMS so bad they
wouldn't take her in a PMS study at the Med School I was attending).
Now after getting her C card and spending 8+ hours on the bottom of a
0vis sand pit working on bouyancy, compass nav, fish chasing, and
exploring old buses and boats that the police rescue teams use for
training she and I are working as a team. The repeated 0vis dunks are
her idea (I just like getting wet!). I also got a Seavision Rx mask so I
can see her.
I guess the bottom line is that we spent 15+ years as paramedics on an
active ambulance company in Houston. We learned to watch each others
behind, nobody else would! Now as she gets more comfortable with being
down she is focusing more on me and her surroundings and things are much
better. Oh yes we no longer look like a couple of breaching whales every
few minutes, her control is getting fantastic and she has dropped 12#s of
lead just by getting more confidence/experience.
We will be doing our AOW in the Bahammas over thanksgiving and Nitrox the
1st week in Dec. I no longer worry about her getting in trouble and I
trust her in case I have a problem. If your buddies significant other
had cared enough he would have been there for her and might have made it
easier on you and the instructors. Gladys & I have gotten to the point
where it only takes one no vote to cancel a dive and it doesn't bother
either of us. We can always find soemthing else to do --- know what I
mean --- know what I mean --- know what I mean (from Monty Pythons Life
of Bryan)!
Diving is supposed to be relaxing,
joe
Anthony Peacock
<SNIP>
>>>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>>>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>>>more training before they got their card?
Nearly! When I did my PADI Open Water, there was a lady on the course who was
obviously having problems with the in-water skills (the theory was a breaze).
Our instructor took her to one side after the first day of open water dives
and had a chat with her. Basically he asked her if she really wanted to learn
to dive, she said yes. The next day our instructor spent a lot of extra time
with this lady until she was really comfortable with the skills. I wouldn't
say that she was the best diver in the group, but she was competent and safe,
when he finally passed her. The instructor was very clear that if, on the
second day of open water dives she didn't improve, he would have failed her.
---
Fare Thee Well
Anthony Peacock (E-Mail: pea...@chime.ucl.ac.uk)
CHIME, UCL Medical School
(All opinions expressed are mine, and are not neccessarily those
of my employer)
Ian Geraint Jones
>I am blessed to have had a dive instructor who doesn't make a living by teaching scuba
>diving. Independently well off, teaching is just fun for him. He taught over a dozen of
>us for free! Anyone he felt needed more time in the water had to spend that time with him.
>Anyone who couldn't meet the minimum standards and could put himself and others in
>danger flunked. All of us had to pass the written exam--no exemptions. He had the
>correct attitude--he didn't want a student's death pinned on him. He thought of us as
>his kids. Now if all dive instructors were like him, we'd see less diving accidents.
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Cool Dude II
>coo...@ibm.net
>"Nakalimutan sa sarap, sa huli ang hirap."
> - Famous Filipino saying
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
--
This is how the British Sub Aqua CLub (BSAC) and SAA Sub Aqua Association work.
Our instructors are all amateurs but of proffesional standard (certainly higher
than some of those who pass anyone). To become an instructor under the BSAC
system you have to take courses at National Level from National Instructors,
these courses cost only #50 (UKP about $75) to do as they are put on by the
instructors in their own time and get only expenses. There are many other
coursesrun by the regional coaching scheme (of which national instructors are
coaches) which only cost expenses e.g. Oxy Admin, Additional Rescue Training
(on tp of BSAC rescue that is part of each syllabus making for some of the
safest divers in the world (SAA is simular but smaller)) Boat Handling,
archeology underwater, etc.etc.etc.
Incidenetally some of the padi add ons e.g. Boat Diver, Wreck Diver, Rescue
Diveretc. we find particularly funny as these are all taught within our scheme
from early on for free. 90% of diving is from boats so you should know how to
div from a boat not that there's much to learn, most dives here are on wrecks
whypay to learn stuff that you be taught anyway.
I am an assitant instructor and I want to finish my course and do some
instructing to put back into the sport what I got out of it this is the
prevalent attitude over here. My friend who is an instructor his motivation is
he loves taking novices on their first dive and seeing the joy in someone else.
I reckon this is the way scuba should be, like the internet not commercialised.
CU
Ian
BTW There are many BSAC clubs, branches and Schools in the USA this is often a
good way to traing in US especially as BSAC is CMAS (founder member) so
wherever yu go your qualification is recognised. If interested give me a ring
I'll find BSC address or look under training orgs in Mike Salmon's UK Diving
Pages
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/ukdiving/
Ian Geraint Jones
James Mellema
Depending on the instructor and certification agency standards a number
of options are available when a diver is not able to satisfactorily
complete the performance requirements of the course. No agency that I
know of condones issueing cards to divers who did not complete the skills
required.
I think you should reconsider doing advanced education with an
organization, shop, or instructor who would issue a performance based
certification to anyone who didn't meet the requirements. Find an
instructor who has the integrity and interest in training competent
divers, and continue your education. Many of us involved in dive
training would be happy to help you. The leadership level training will
make you a more competent diver, as well as giving you the skills to help
others who are having problems
Keep learning and stay wet.
Jim Mellema
OWSI
Stephen M Dodd
>would happen with my dive buddy......... well they shook her hand,
>congratulated her and gave her the temporary card. I was shocked. It
>someone like her. My instructor phoned me to ask if I wanted to be in the
>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>them. Would I have control of whether I pass or fail them? ( as an
>shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
>can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
>such a long thread.
>
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/ Randy & Lisa Benoit _/
> _/ ben...@cadvision.com _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
A SCUBA student can fail. More often they simply do not finish. I
know of many cases where students didn't complete the requirements.
But I know of no courses where the student completed the requirements
but didn't get certified.
Steve
--
- Stephen M. Dodd, Computer Systems Coordinator ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oregon State University Extension Service
sd...@oes.orst.edu Internet Oregon State University
Voice 503-737-3550 FAX 503-737-4423 Corvallis, OR 97331
da...@ibm.net
>
> Yes, its possible to fail Rescue. Rare, but possible.
> Capt. Tom Scott
> SHIPWRECK EXPLORATIONS & DOCUMENTATIONS
> Key Largo, Florida U.S.A.
>
Rare? If someone cannot fulfill the rescue skills, they fail. Period. People
fail the Rescue with me, but only if they fail to complete the skills
satisfactorily, of course.
Passing everybody, even if they fail to fulfill the requirements, as I have
pointed out before, damages the credibility of the instructor, the dive shop (
or school), and the organization, to say nothing of the diver him- or herself...
See ya!
Dani Schwarz PADI OWSI #905451
Steve Breland
>..... My buddy freaked when visibility was almost 0 inches. She went
>straight to the top..... I was curious what
>would happen with my dive buddy......... well they shook her hand,
>congratulated her and gave her the temporary card.
Saw a similar thing happen during my AOW course. Probably doesn't
matter if the diver in question only does shallow reef dives. Where
the danger is is when the new graduate does a 110 ft wreck dive 20
miles off shore with 4 ft seas and a current. Or any one of the
above ;-) I have decided the only way to think of the AOW class (or
Wreck Diver, or whatever) is as an intructional level, not an ability
level. In other words, the card doesn't really mean much. I took the
AOW course because one of the shops on the Carolina coast said they
required it for certain charters. Was a waste of time and money.
-Steve
email: Steve....@rmh.edu
Multimedia Design
> In article <309CF6...@evansville.net> you write:
> >As far as being in the water during advanced class navigation runs, here
> >is my opinion on that. First, how do students get out of a basic program
> >and not have compass skills to begin with? I consider the advanced Nav
> >class to be just that... advanced! Now if a student is having obvious ...
> >Rick Williams, DCSI #625
On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Castelli Massimo wrote:
>
> Now I don't want to resurrect the old thread PADI vs others but when I
> certified the compass navigation was _not_ in the open water book, that
> was considered "advanced". Still I tend to agree with you, using my own
> gift for underwater orientation w/o proper (or minimal whatsoever) training
> sucks.
>
> Max Castelli, PADIOW
>
Hmm, I wasn't aware of that, but if I'm not mistaking, and I could be (it
happens all the time), the RTSC standards call for compass training in
the into level of training. Even if it doesn't, being able to do a basic
out and back compass run is really a basic survival skill and typically
one that is pretty easy to teach "if" the students have their bouyancy
skills together and are generally with it in the water.
On the other hand, and I suspect this might be the problem with some
instructors, if a student doesn't have good control in the water, teaching
them to do a compass run is an exercise in frustration because they can
never stay on the compass! It's constant stop-go, fidget, sink...rise,
speed up slow.. down and the compass needle dances all over the place. A
student has to be able to concentrate on the itty bitty needle and not
chasing their bouyancy in order to do a good compass run.
If you think about it, scuba classes and skills are taught on on top of
the other, like a house foundation. If you pour a cruddy footer, then
the whole thing comes crashing down sooner or later. That is the real
crime with instructors and stores which short change their students in
the intro classes. Problems start cropping up later in their ability to
do advanced exercises and if you get down to it, the students ability to
really ever enjoy the sport.
Best
Rick
Paul Case
>From: ben...@huey.cadvision.com (Randy Benoit)
>Subject: Can you fail ANY courses???
>Date: Sat, 04 Nov 1995 15:12:38 -0600
I just got back from a trip to the Caymans. Several quite humorous things
happened and several funny things were said. By far the funniest however
was after our first dive to 100' when back on the boat my buddy turned to me
and said "After all that training, I'm still completly clueless as how to read
this thing"
He was pointing at his depth gauge!
Tim J. Patterson
>Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
>diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
>more training before they got their card? I don't know if I want to work
>in a business, that someone could be killed because of my lack of training
>them. Would I have control of whether I pass or fail them? ( as an
>instructor, I know the DM doesn't make the decision) Does anyone who
>shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
>can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
>such a long thread.
I had the good fortune to take my open water class from a very
rigorous instructor. We did a lot of rescue work both in the pool and
in the ocean. Spent the last couple of pool sessions doing complete
doff and don exercises. Many of my friends in other classes, did not
do/learn nearly as much. With that as an intro, in our class, there
were 2 people who
were told that the class wasn't for them at the beginning of the class
and that they should take swimming lessons to become more comfortable
in the water first. One person flunked the written exam and missed
the open water dives. Two others who passed the exam were told that
they were not yet ready for the open water and invited to attend the
next set of pool sessions at no cost until they were ready.
Tim
dia...@aloha.net
>> Of course very few fail....This is a for profit business...can't generate
>> money by failing people \
>Hmm! Slight logical flaw, I think. If someone fails my Open Water course, they
>do not get their money back. They paid for the course - they got the course =
>they got what they paid for. They didn't buy the certification (otherwise we
>could forget about the course and just sell certifications, no?). They have to
>earn the certification. Ergo, if someone fails my course, they have already
>paid, and I don't lose any money on that course.
In fact, most of the time the *shop* actually earns money. Every shop
that I have taught for has paid me only after the student was
certified. No certification - no pay. So, in fact, there's an
incentive for the shops to have the students fail.
Aloha, Diane
dia...@aloha.net
http://www.aloha.net./~dianeb
Bruce J. Belschner
out of courses or asked to take them over. This become more
previlant as the courses become more technical and task oriented.
thus creating task loaded divers who may be comfortable on a reef
at 45' in the bahamas, but not on a nj wreck dive. Instructor
should do more to weed out bad candidates for courses.
IMHO
B2
===============================================================
Bruce J. Belschner
71301...@compuserve.com
"The quality of one's cave dive is directly proportional to the
wattage of their light"
===============================================================
Andy Foggo
>In article <47haan$g...@tofu.alt.net> cap...@bridge.net (Thomas Scott) writes:
>
> >Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
> >diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
> >more training before they got their card? I don't know if I want to work
> >in a business, that someone could be killed because of my lack of training
> >them. Would I have control of whether I pass or fail them? ( as an
> >instructor, I know the DM doesn't make the decision) Does anyone who
> >shows up, get a certification? I would like to get as much feedback as I
> >can regarding this matter, so I can make an informed decision. Sorry for
> >such a long thread.
Interesting point this,
I've had a mixed bag of experience with training. At Master
Diver on Ko Tao, Thailand where I first qualified, the
instructors would spend as long with a student as it took that
student to achieve a satisfactory level of performance in a
skill or area of knowledge. With this kind of attention, one
girl had spent 7 days on becoming confident in mask clearing.
The instructor was aware that this was simply a confidence
issue and could be overcome, otherwise he told me that he would
have sent her away and refunded part of her course fee. By
contrast my recent advanced course was conducted on the "you're
obvisouly safe and confident let's have fun" principle. The
first school were very careful and rigorous with the tests and
schooling, the second just sent me home with the test and
course book, I could have cheated if I felt inclined.
So given the nature of most training courses for divers, it
seems unlikely that people should be failing to get
certification. Look at the PADI system, most of the exams have
a section at the bottom that states that you have "had the bits
you got wrong explained to you". Perhaps these tests need to be
tightened up, but then again the real problems are likely to
occur not with people who have information fresh in their minds
but with those who return to diving after a layoff and have
forgotten vital details. It would be good to have a system
where anyone who has not logged a dive in say, 3 months, has to
complete AND PASS a "knowledge revue" before being taken on for
a dive by an operator. I'd also like to see operators run a
system where divers sign a waiver that they accept all
financial responsibility in the event that a DM deems them
unsafe to continue a dive. In otherwords, if some clown is
bobbing up and down, colliding with the bottom and other
divers, and/or behaving irreponsibly whilst on a dive, the DM
should be able to order that person to the surface at the first
safe opportunity.
As a university teacher I'd like to think that what I teach
people now will be of value to them for a longer period of time
than that which it takes them to graduate. Diving should be the
same. If a graduate of a university loses their skills in this
world they flounder and fail, become unemployed or have to
change careers. Diving should be similarly ability oriented,
however well qualified or experienced, divers should always be
monitored to ensure that they are safe and competent. The level
that this would work at primarily is that of the DM or
instructor taking people aside and recommending that they brush
up on something or they won't be welcome to dive in the same
company again. Similarly certification should be regularly
monitored and renewals placed under some kind of review
system to improve safety.
That should get the flames roaring!
Dive safe
AF
J Shepherd
On the same thread as AF was following;
My parents are both teachers, and have the very strong opinion
that when a child or young person is 'being taught' then they should not
be entered for a final exam until it is known they will pass. Now the
state of education here is still, despite the gov'n message, in turmoil,
and that is just not possible; but it is still the ideal.
With a paid course, there is a difference; or at least room for
one. When I joined my first club, I paid to become a diver, and that's
what they did to me - patiently and with care, and the odd strong word
at times 'cos I was always a bit of a plonker.
I did *not* pay for information to take away (that's free, until
you get to techdiving which appears to be so full of lawyers that no-one
will tell you anything for free). I did *not* pay for a C-card. I did,
eventually, become something of a diver.
Now if you go to a shop (PADI shop or BSAC shop) and you hand
over your money, *what exactly are you buying*?
A c-card?
Information?
Diving experience?
Implying that you can fail the test means that you're selling
information. Selling a c-card is obviously wrong. Selling diving
experience? Could be! But what do c-cards have to do with diving
experience?
In an ideal world there would be two sets of 'shops'. Those
selling diving courses and those testing them. So I go to EDC and I buy
four dives, five hours of lectures and some kit. A few weeks later I go
over to Glasgow and attend a testing session; where I pass or fail in an
independantly assessed situation. No reason why it couldn't be set up -
its what's done for driving licences.
In the meantime, we still have these differences between
learning to dive and getting qualifications. Different shops will do
different things, and whilst its all clear in the heads of the
individual instructors, its clear as shite to the rest of us.
Join a club; no worries there. You might even get some diving
done!
Jason
da...@ibm.net
> Now if you go to a shop (PADI shop or BSAC shop) and you hand
> over your money, *what exactly are you buying*?
>
> A c-card?
> Information?
> Diving experience?
>
> Implying that you can fail the test means that you're selling
> information. Selling a c-card is obviously wrong. Selling diving
> experience? Could be! But what do c-cards have to do with diving
> experience?
>
> In an ideal world there would be two sets of 'shops'. Those
> selling diving courses and those testing them. So I go to EDC and I buy
> four dives, five hours of lectures and some kit. A few weeks later I go
> over to Glasgow and attend a testing session; where I pass or fail in an
> independantly assessed situation. No reason why it couldn't be set up -
> its what's done for driving licences.
>
> In the meantime, we still have these differences between
> learning to dive and getting qualifications. Different shops will do
> different things, and whilst its all clear in the heads of the
> individual instructors, its clear as shite to the rest of us.
>
> Join a club; no worries there. You might even get some diving
> done!
>
> Jason
Hi Jason!
Just my two Swiss centimes worth - although I have written this before:
When someone takes a course with me, they pay for the *course* but have to
*earn* the certification.
The course includes information (=theory) and enough practical training that
the students can dive safely in conditions similar to, or better than, the
conditions in which they took the course. AND... these skills are trained until
they reach a level of proficiency which enables the students to practise these
skills without supervision, in oreder to perfect them.
Everybody will be able to clear their mask after basic training, for instance,
but it takes a little more practice (which can easily be acquired outside of
formal training) to remove their mask and put it back on again with one hand,
heavy winter gloves, and a thick neoprene thingy on your head.
What I am saying, is that the function of the course CANNOT be to turn out
perfect divers, but to turn out divers who
a) are capable of diving in a responsible way, without endangering themselves
or others,
b) have working diving skills which will be honed during the rest of their
diving life,
c) have the diving skills and knowledge to enable them to enjoy diving and
avoid patently dangerous situations or situations for which they do not feel
ready.
IMHO:
A COURSE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR EXPERIENCE, but the skills and knowledge gained
during the course are essential and form the basis for practical experience.
richard soderberg
> In article <benoitr-0411...@cad165.cadvision.com>,
> Randy Benoit <ben...@huey.cadvision.com> wrote:
(shocking story deleted)
> >Now my question to all you experienced Divers. Has anyone heard of a
> >diver failing a course? Or has anyone ever been asked to come back for
> >more training before they got their card? I don't know if I want to work
At the PADI Dive center where I sometimes work an instructor refused to
certify a pair of AOW buddies/students because the would not stick
together. The same guy made me rewrite my divemaster dive site plan a few
times before he was satisfied. Makes you cherish your certificates a
little more, doesnt it?
/RS
+------------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
| Richard Soderberg, MD, PADI DM | The Karolinska Institute |
| Systems analyst | MIC-KIBIC |
| Voice#: +46 8 728 80 00 | Library and |
| Fax# : +46 8 33 04 81 | Medical Information Center |
| Snail : PO Box 200 | Doktorsringen 21 C, |
| S-177 77 Stockholm | S-104 01 Stockholm |
| Email :richard....@mic.ki.se | SWEDEN |
+------------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
Matthew Cobby
Hi Jason,
We're running a school that trains BSAC, SAA, SSAC and shortly PADI in
the west of Scotland so heres what I think.
>> Now if you go to a shop (PADI shop or BSAC shop) and you hand
>> over your money, *what exactly are you buying*?
>>
>> A c-card?
>> Information?
>> Diving experience?
>>
>> Implying that you can fail the test means that you're selling
>> information. Selling a c-card is obviously wrong. Selling diving
>> experience? Could be! But what do c-cards have to do with diving
>> experience?
When students train with us they are buying a course where they can
gain information and the opportunity to gain experience. we DONT sell
a qualification. If somebody isnt up to the required standard then
we will fail them (and we have done before now). What we will do is over
them one more free day for training and the test. If they still
cant pass then any further training will have to be paid for.
We will NOT let pass if they are a danger to themselves or more importantly
to another diver.
>>
>> In an ideal world there would be two sets of 'shops'. Those
>> selling diving courses and those testing them. So I go to EDC and I buy
>> four dives, five hours of lectures and some kit. A few weeks later I go
>> over to Glasgow and attend a testing session; where I pass or fail in an
>> independantly assessed situation. No reason why it couldn't be set up -
>> its what's done for driving licences.
Thats the last thing we need. We have enough paper work to deal with
from Health and Safety. Anyway in real life thats what happens if you
train with a school and go to join a club, they often ask you to go
through an assesment to make sure they are ok. After all would you dive with
somebody you know nothing about?
>>
>> In the meantime, we still have these differences between
>> learning to dive and getting qualifications. Different shops will do
>> different things, and whilst its all clear in the heads of the
>> individual instructors, its clear as shite to the rest of us.
Well I hope that helps explain it a bit and if you came to us
we would explain it to you.
>>
>> Join a club; no worries there. You might even get some diving
>> done!
And maybe after a year or two you might finally be qualified! (ok, ok you will
have more general experience than a school trained person who has
only had 9 days diving but they learn fast and are generally more
open to new ways)
>From: da...@ibm.net
>When someone takes a course with me, they pay for the *course* but have to
>*earn* the certification.
>The course includes information (=theory) and enough practical training that
>the students can dive safely in conditions similar to, or better than, the
>conditions in which they took the course. AND... these skills are trained until
>they reach a level of proficiency which enables the students to practise these
>skills without supervision, in oreder to perfect them.
This guy knows what he's talking about.
>Everybody will be able to clear their mask after basic training, for instance,
>but it takes a little more practice (which can easily be acquired outside of
>formal training) to remove their mask and put it back on again with one hand,
>heavy winter gloves, and a thick neoprene thingy on your head.
We train in the sea with semi dry suits and winter gloves as quickly as
possible so they pick it up kinda fast!
>IMHO:
>
>A COURSE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR EXPERIENCE, but the skills and knowledge gained
>during the course are essential and form the basis for practical experience.
Couldnt have said it better myself
Matt
Can Do Diving
--
_\\///_
(' O-O ')
--------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-----------------
-> Matthew Cobby e-mail: m.p....@strath.ac.uk <-
-> Signal Processing Division Phone: +44 141-552-4400 X2946 / X2686 <-
-> Royal College Fax: +44 141-552-2487 <-
-> University of Strathclyde World Wide Web <-
-> Glasgow, G1 1XW http://www.spd.eee.strath.ac.uk/~matthew <-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug Taylor
<mat...@spd.eee.strath.ac.uk> writes
>Hi Jason,
>
>We're running a school that trains BSAC, SAA, SSAC and shortly PADI in
>the west of Scotland so heres what I think.
>
then Jason writes:]
>>> Join a club; no worries there. You might even get some diving
>>> done!
>
>And maybe after a year or two you might finally be qualified! (ok, ok you will
>have more general experience than a school trained person who has
>only had 9 days diving but they learn fast and are generally more
>open to new ways)
>
I must say I have a great deal of sympathy with your approach to
teaching via the school system, but I hope you don't mind me observing
that you might be a little harsh on clubs. Although I have heard the odd
horror story, most clubs that I know manage to complete the basic
training in about 3 months, working one evening per week. That includes
all of the basic snorkel training as well, so for people who prefer that
pace/price it's not such a terrible thing.
(BTW, how are you managing to get SAA qualifications via a school? - I
thought I'd only just finished writing up the recommendations for SAA
Schools!! :-)
Safe Diving,
Doug Taylor do...@ivydene1.demon.co.uk
Sub-Aqua Association UK - 'The Friendliest Divers in the World'
Nick Simon
>
<<Big Snip>>
>
> Now if you go to a shop (PADI shop or BSAC shop) and you hand
> over your money, *what exactly are you buying*?
>
> A c-card?
> Information?
> Diving experience?
>
IMHO, you should be paying for being taught. The information is freely (ish) available, the
certification has to be deserved. You pay for diving experience too, but that's tied in with
the teaching.
(Yes, in PADI one pays for the card... but thats PADI for you!)
<<Another Big Snip>>
>
> Join a club; no worries there. You might even get some diving
> done!
>
Well.... I went the school route for a number of reasons. In a school, you pays your money, in
a club you pay with loyalty and commitment. Nothing against that, but my lifestyle (which
includes a career and family commitments) doesn't really leave room: I had the choice of -
Not diving (which I'd wanted to do since I was 3 or 4), or
Neglecting my family, or
Using a school.
So I found a school run by an instructor I liked & felt I could trust, and have no regrets about
it. I have NO doubt that he would have failed me if necessary - but I also know he would have
spent a deal of extra time on me before conceding defeat.
<<Start Flamebait Block>>
IMHO, a problem with clubs is that SOME of them are run by people with ego problems - this is my
experience of clubs generally, rather than diving. I'm sure JMS' club is ace, and I'd be
honoured to meet them all - but all clubs are not equal.
<<End Flamebait Block>>
Ta ta,
--
************************************************************************
* Nick Simon, the | ..the real barriers are not technical, *
* thinking man's | they are in the mind. *
* fruitcake. | - Jack Schofield, Computer Weekly *
************************************************************************
Wolfgang Phoenix
Cool comment, have you dived in South Africa?
Wolfgang Phoenix
================================================================================
PHOENIX.I...@PIXIE.CO.ZA If all you have is a hammer,
W...@PIXIE.CO.ZA everything looks like a nail
================================================================================
J Shepherd
Some very good comments from school based instructors (i.e.
professionals) who obviously have a very careful attitude to who
they're passing out. The students pay to have the oppertunity to be
presented with the material, to be coached in an understanding of it, if
neccessary (can anyone give me spelling lessons), and to be assisted in
their initial in-water experience. That's if my reading of the replies
was accurate. During and after the course, there is both an informal and
formal assessing procedure, and students not deemed up to scratch don't
pass. I'm impressed by our Glaswegian friends offer of an extra day free
to catch up if required (which shop are you at?).
That clarifies to *my* mind what I'd expect, say, my sister to
be paying for at a school. From the number of times this issue arises I
wonder if we aren't just seeing the odd bad experience on a bad day, or
worse a few bad schools, but a real incomprehension of what the teaching
process is; as perceived by the students. It is amazing what goes on in
the minds of trainee divers, as the rumours and legends get replaced by
hard facts and reality.
Anyway, thanks for the replies... onto clubs!
Fear not; no flames here - any criticisms will probably be met
with the old 'yes we've thought of that but....' ploy.
I think the biggest difference in club based diving is the
ability to build up a diving team on a regular basis, and that's a
question of attitude, not of expressly shop vs club views. I used to
argue this point as PADI vs BSAC; PADI divers turn up once in a blue
moon, buy a single dive day, get lead by the hand round a safe dive
site, and go home till the next vacation comes up, whilst BSAC divers go
out every weekend on the cheap and pull stops on air. Not true of
course! But a useful pigeon hole.
Then I made the same differentiation between shop and club
divers; and on the whole it's more accurate, but still *has* got
exceptions. Heck even in our club we have the odd 'skiing vacation'
diver. We also have the psycho 'you can't feel the waves at depth, who's
for the Halland?' brigade. It makes a nice mix, when they're talking to
each other. (Only when drunk enough not to recognise the other,
usually).
But I would still say, that for a diver who wants to get the
most out of diving, a club is the best way forward. As Doug said, most
clubs are putting their trainees into the water in a short space of
time, now. We have our first of this year going in as I type, the course
having started on the 12th October.
For the diver who is unable to make the commitment to a flat-out
diving career, a good local shop and a few contacts made over the years
will serve equally well, if more slowly and at greater financial outlay.
Also, as has been said, ego's cause a big problem in clubs; like
instructors, shop around till you find a good one. Here in Edinburgh
you've got BSAC 21, Divetek, Lothian Divers, and Sth Queensferry BSAC
branches (Plus the University, which isn't open to general membership
unfortunately because of the Spurts Union). Plus SAA and SSAC branches.
My ex had a bit of a problem with the Uni club so she joined Lothian
Divers, another very good club. Some people hang out with several clubs,
and Ian Morrison, the tart, does the rounds. :-) Kenny H is in Sth QFY I
believe. It makes for a rather rich resource of divers.
Add three (now four) shops, and I think you'll agree that we
need the clubs!
Worth remembering though, that egos cause a problem in shops
too, though less usually becuase you've already priced yourself into a
relationship. Particularly bad with techie shops, I gather.
Cheers
Jason
PS for a limited time whilst we get it set up, and keep it
quiet, but the EUSAC web page is being prepared by yours truely at
http://www.ed.ac.uk/~jms/index.html
Matthew Cobby
Doug Taylor <do...@ivydene1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I must say I have a great deal of sympathy with your approach to
>teaching via the school system, but I hope you don't mind me observing
>that you might be a little harsh on clubs. Although I have heard the odd
>horror story, most clubs that I know manage to complete the basic
>training in about 3 months, working one evening per week. That includes
>all of the basic snorkel training as well, so for people who prefer that
>pace/price it's not such a terrible thing.
True, its just my own personal bad experience with clubs and the
organisations that they side with.
>(BTW, how are you managing to get SAA qualifications via a school? - I
>thought I'd only just finished writing up the recommendations for SAA
>Schools!! :-)
Yeah, we've had some interesting conversations with the SAA :) What we
now have to do is train a person then submit them to a club for "testing"
and they do the actual qualifying. Its a naff system but its the best
that can be done when organisations dont see eye to eye on certain issues ;-)
>Safe Diving,
Always, Cheers.
>
>Doug Taylor do...@ivydene1.demon.co.uk
>Sub-Aqua Association UK - 'The Friendliest Divers in the World'
Even I have to agree there......
Scott Cherf
> da...@ibm.net wrote:
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> We're running a school that trains BSAC, SAA, SSAC and shortly PADI in
> the west of Scotland so heres what I think.
>
> >> Now if you go to a shop (PADI shop or BSAC shop) and you hand
> >> over your money, *what exactly are you buying*?
> >>
> >> A c-card?
> >> Information?
> >> Diving experience?
> >>
> >> Implying that you can fail the test means that you're selling
> >> information. Selling a c-card is obviously wrong. Selling diving
> >> experience? Could be! But what do c-cards have to do with diving
> >> experience?
>
> When students train with us they are buying a course where they can
> gain information and the opportunity to gain experience. we DONT sell
> a qualification. If somebody isnt up to the required standard then
> we will fail them (and we have done before now). What we will do is over
> them one more free day for training and the test. If they still
> cant pass then any further training will have to be paid for.
> We will NOT let pass if they are a danger to themselves or more importantly
> to another diver.
This is pretty much exactly how my IANTD instructor runs his course, and
no the c-card is not part of the fee. If you pass the class, you can buy a
c-card (it's optional) from the certifying agency, not from the instructor or
the instructor's shop. If you don't pass the class, the c-card isn't going to
do you any good since no one's going to dive with you anyway ;).
I think it's a pretty good system myself.
Scott.
Ted Norton
>ben...@huey.cadvision.com (Randy Benoit) wrote:
>It sounds to me like you just had a bad experience. I have been in a
>couple of classes where students were asked to take additional open
>water sessions and one where they just didn't issue a certification.
>So some instructors do have the right attitude. However, you
>underscored a very important point for all of us that occasionally
>look for last minute dive buddies. The diving skill of any diver
>CANNOT be determined by what cards they have. A log book is a little
>more of an indicator than most other things, but this is not a sure
>thing either. Unfortunately, only by diving with someone can you
>really tell how that person is.
>As to whether you should go on or not, you appear to be someone who
>knows what to do and not to do, and you stop, think, then act before
>just rocketing to the surface. The industry can ALWAYS use someone of
>your caliber to guide the new students and teach them correctly. Just
>think, someday someone else will be looking for a competent dive
>buddy, and you may have made the impression on the student than made
>them that way.
>Disaster Recipe:
>1) Macho ( or scared silly) ill-informed diver.
>2) Add water (any vis, any temp, any depth)
>3) Do nothing ( the first situation out of the ordinary will do the
>rest).
>Michael Morris
>PADI AOW, Deep Specialty
>NAUI Rescue Diver
>Michael Morris
>PADI AOW, Deep Specialty
>NAUI Rescue Diver
I don't know if you can fail any courses but, I had a course fail me.
I was being traind through the YMCA I was suposed to get 5 class and,
8 dives My instructor did 4 of the class 3 of the dives and, then
told my to dive with a non-instructor who had just finnished Open
Water One, in order to finish the class. I did however find another
instructor who was willing to finish the class for me. However to
this day I don't have a C card. I signed up August it's now December.
If you have an E-mail address for the YMCA I would like to have it.
Thank You,