Safe Second (Octopus Reg) - Left or Right Side?
renwic...@ic.gc.ca
As a PADI OW diver, I am used to having my safe second (octopus reg)
placed on the right side for buddy breathing, etc., but while taking a
NASDS advanced course, I see that their approach is to have it on the
left side so that the reg and hose are in proper form. I've been told
that NASDS has always done this and it is a safer method for low or out
of air situations. After trying it for a while, it makes sense, but is
there a move at large to standardize this one way or another among all
agencies?
Perry West
renwic...@ic.gc.ca wrote:
: As a PADI OW diver, I am used to having my safe second (octopus reg)
IMHO, an out-of-air buddy will not care which side your octo is on. They
will care 1) that they can readily get to it if you are distracted (e.g.,
it is in plain view and preferably a contrasting color), and 2) that you
know where it is by reflex action.
Certainly, with the octo on the left side, the supply hose does not need
to bend in a 'U', which makes the octo easier and more comfortable to
use. OTOH, in ascending, both of you will have your left hand on your
inflator hoses to vent. This means, as I was taught, each of you will be
holding the other's right hand BC strap with your right hand. In this
situation, the octo hose will wrap around you. I guess you could go up
with right hands on the partner's left BC strap; that just might work.
Thanks for questioning old habits.
Regards,
Perry
Dillon Pyron
renwic...@ic.gc.ca wrote:
>As a PADI OW diver, I am used to having my safe second (octopus reg)
>placed on the right side for buddy breathing, etc., but while taking a
>NASDS advanced course, I see that their approach is to have it on the
>left side so that the reg and hose are in proper form. I've been told
>that NASDS has always done this and it is a safer method for low or out
>of air situations. After trying it for a while, it makes sense, but is
>there a move at large to standardize this one way or another among all
>agencies?
>
Most people put it on their right side. This seems to make it the de facto
standard.
Best is another issue.
--
dillon
dillon...@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA A-26031
Mark Juenemann
On the other hand, I have heard that a true PANICKED out-of-air diver
is "taking" your primary because:
they KNOW it works
and they can SEE it more readily
- and then YOU grab your own octopus:
you KNOW where it is better than anyone
and if it's on the right, it will be oriented right for you
I think if the above is true, we better be willing to quickly give up
our primary, therby solving the problem ASAP and maybe saving two
lives...
Does anyone have any personal experience with this?
Mark Juenemann
Tim Tyler
In article <perryDw...@netcom.com>, Perry West <pe...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>IMHO, an out-of-air buddy will not care which side your octo is on. They
>will care 1) that they can readily get to it if you are distracted (e.g.,
>it is in plain view and preferably a contrasting color), and 2) that you
>know where it is by reflex action.
The out-of-air buddy won't give a damn about the octo, because the
out-of-air buddy is gonna yank your primary out of your mouth! The
'nice' thing about that method is that anyone who is familiar with human
anaotomy will know where the mouth is, and the 'donor' (ha!) has the
regulator in their mouth, without any other hoses or equipment impeding
access by the distressed dive-buddy.
I agree that it is important for each individual diver to be able to
react instinctively & grab their octopus/safe-second, but I think (based
on a few experiences, unfortunately) that it is pretty unrealistic to
expect an out-of-air dive buddy to grab the octopus. This is also based
on the distances that most (IMHO...) 'buddy teams' actually keep from
eachother during recreational dives, especially if the environment offers
good visibility. By the time someone comes up to you for air, they've
probably spent a few seconds wondering why the regulator is breathing
heavy, then checking their gage, then getting no air (& subsequently
having the timeframe compounded by panic as well as the physical need for
air), then somehow deciding whether to bolt to the surface or bolt to you.
So by the time they get to you, they've probably been out of air (or
whatever gas) for 5 or 10 seconds, which is compounded by whatever degree
of anxiety/panic they're in. It is kinda doubtful they're going to be
looking for your octopus even if you did the nice little pre-dive
buddy check because the mindset is "HE'S GOT AIR!" and not
"Hmm, if he's PADI-trained, his octopus will be on the left -- unless
he's using an AIR-II. If he's NASDS-trained, his octo should be on the
left side of his torso..."
I'm not advocating any particular side to put the safe-second on, and
I'm certainly not indicating it shouldn't be a bright color in the
triangle between someone's pectorals & their navel, but I think that the
reality is that an out-of-air diver who is targetting you (actually not
you, but your air supply!) will be focused on that regulator he/she sees
in your mouth, which is spewing out those pretty bubbles. So if you have
the luxury of seeing them coming, by all means, grab that octopus & hold
it out to them as you swim towards them, but otherwise, prepare to use
that octopus for yourself, even if it is on a longer, bright hose & all
that good stuff. If you're lucky, once the formerly O-O-A diver calms
down, *maybe* they'll be willing to trade regulators with you.
A 'low-on-air' diver is a different story, but it is the out-of-air
diver that you need to be ready for.
>Thanks for questioning old habits.
Amen!
>Perry
Tim
--
Tim Tyler Internet: t...@umcc.umich.edu C$erve: Hooligan AOL: Hooligan
P.O. Box 443 Amateur Radio: KA8VIR @WB8ZPN.#SEMI.MI.USA.NOAM
Ypsilanti, MI
48197-0443 In cyberspace, no one can hear you scream.
Joe Koontz
Guilty.
When Gladys & I dive I usually run point and end up either hanging by one
hand on the tag line or being the first one on the hang bottle. That our
instructor set-up with the valve off and the yoke locked down over it so
the valve wouldn't twist - but he put enough air in the line so it purged
once - inhaling salt water sucks! She is hanging onto me, my reg is
hanging over my shoulder in the current so I get to her after she inhales
and take her reg, she switches to her Sherwood Shadow + which amounts to
a head turn and an exhale to purge and we are back in business. 2nd time
I was backing out of a wreck @ 77fsw and hit my yoke knob on the boat and
it de-seated enough to blow 1200psi (stopped @ 300). We switched she went
to her alt and I held her tank to my chest and we swam up the reef to
shore w/5min safety stop. Lotta ribbing, looked kinda like I was humping
her but it works better in a horizontal swim for us to be one above the
other rather than side by side (hose just isn't long enough).
And we have had students from classes we have been diving with, they go
for your reg on the first water in the lungs. You have enough time to
see them coming and switch to your alt when it happens.
Joe & Gladys
we finally made it to MSD in under a yr!
br
renwic...@ic.gc.ca wrote:
>
> As a PADI OW diver, I am used to having my safe second (octopus reg)
> placed on the right side for buddy breathing, etc., but while taking a
> NASDS advanced course, I see that their approach is to have it on the
> left side so that the reg and hose are in proper form. I've been told
> that NASDS has always done this and it is a safer method for low or out
> of air situations. After trying it for a while, it makes sense, but is
> there a move at large to standardize this one way or another among all
> agencies?
Typically most 'out of air' situations will evolve into the victim grabbing your
regulator out of your mouth thus forcing you to take the octi.
--
Ed Streeet, CNA
A.K.A. BlackNet Runner
<Power to the People>
Jackey van Melis
renwic...@ic.gc.ca wrote in article <4untuq$r...@crc-news.doc.ca>...
> As a PADI OW diver, I am used to having my safe second (octopus reg)
> placed on the right side for buddy breathing, etc., but while taking a
> NASDS advanced course, I see that their approach is to have it on the
> left side so that the reg and hose are in proper form. I've been told
> that NASDS has always done this and it is a safer method for low or out
> of air situations. After trying it for a while, it makes sense, but is
> there a move at large to standardize this one way or another among all
> agencies?
I find that it makes not much difference if you place it left or right for
a receiver, you have to twist the hose either way. If you want to have the
hose in a proper form you should mount it upside-down (please don't).
My considerations are more selfcentered ;-)
I put my octopus on the side of my 2nd stage for the next reasons:
- it is the only hose I would like on one side with my 2nd stage, when
reaching back for a regulator it doesn't matter what hose you grab
- if I would put it on the other side, in my case I would have 4 hoses on
one side (HP, BCD, Drysuit, Octopus) to much.
John Strohm
Joe Koontz wrote:
>When Gladys & I dive I usually run point and end up either hanging by one
>hand on the tag line or being the first one on the hang bottle. That our
>instructor set-up with the valve off and the yoke locked down over it so
>the valve wouldn't twist - but he put enough air in the line so it purged
>once - inhaling salt water sucks!
You DID punch the instroketor out afterwards, didn't you? Or did you
settle for reaming him a new asshole in front of EVERYONE on the boat about
testing the hang bottle setup after rigging it, before dropping it in the
water?
> She is hanging onto me, my reg is
>hanging over my shoulder in the current so I get to her after she inhales
>and take her reg, she switches to her Sherwood Shadow + which amounts to
>a head turn and an exhale to purge and we are back in business. 2nd time
>I was backing out of a wreck @ 77fsw and hit my yoke knob on the boat and
>it de-seated enough to blow 1200psi (stopped @ 300). We switched she went
>to her alt and I held her tank to my chest and we swam up the reef to
>shore w/5min safety stop. Lotta ribbing, looked kinda like I was humping
>her but it works better in a horizontal swim for us to be one above the
>other rather than side by side (hose just isn't long enough).
For overhead environments, you want a 7' hose. I like the Hogarthian cave
rig, which puts the long hose on the primary (which you breathe), and puts
the short-hose backup regulator on a neck strap. That way, you ALWAYS hand
off a known-working regulator and you ALWAYS know where your backup is and
don't need your hands to get to it.
The neck strap can create a free-flow problem at the surface; the easy fix
is to use a fully-diver-adjustable second stage and dial the cracking
resistance all the way up, to where it WON'T crack until you put a real
serious suction on it. Most non-adjustable second stages are set to crack
at about 1" water column, and you will get that and more just by hanging it
from the strap, when you first get in the water. (The inside is
air-filled, and exposed to air via the mouthpiece; the diaphragm and valve
actuator may be as much as 2" underwater while the mouthpiece is still
above the surface; there is your 1" water column, with spare change.)
Lee Bell
Perry West wrote:
> IMHO, an out-of-air buddy will not care which side your octo is on. They
> will care 1) that they can readily get to it if you are distracted (e.g.,
> it is in plain view and preferably a contrasting color), and 2) that you
> know where it is by reflex action.
I learned with my octo on my right side. If I still used a conventional octopus, I'd still have
it there. My reasoning is that I want both my regulators in a position that allows me to use
them most easily. In assisting an OOA diver, I never knew which regulator I would wind up with.
There's a lot of truth to the statement that an OOA buddy may make the decision for you and when
he/she does, it's likely to be the regulator in your mouth which goes. In fact, a couple of
years ago, I modified my preferred technique to offer the regulator from my mouth, picking up the
Octo myself.
Since then, I've moved to a combination inflator/second. With this unit, at least on my BC,
there's no choice, the second is on the inflator hose which is on my left. My "give my primary"
preference has switched to a necessity. My second is impractical for another person to use, but
quite comfortable and adequate for my own use (Sea Quest Air Source which comes with an extended
inflator hose).
Personally, I'm not real big on dive planning. I and those I dive with are all quite qualified
and experienced. On most dives, the bottom dictates maximum depth (most of my diving is on
relatively shallow reefs). On a deep dive, we establish an approximate maximum depth. On some
dives we designate a leader, on others, we follow whoever wants to lead at the moment. The one
thing, however, we always do is share information on equipment. I ALWAYS advise those who don't
dive with me often that in case of a problem, they get my primary and I show them my setup and
why. Works for me.
Lee
Lee Bell
Mark Juenemann wrote:
>
> On the other hand, I have heard that a true PANICKED out-of-air diver
As a certified Water Safety Instructor with considerable experience in getting others out of
trouble (former lifeguard, senior lifesaving/swimming instructor), I can say that the only thing
you can be sure of in assisting someone who is in trouble is that there is nothing you can be
sure of. Some will act rationally and some won't. The best you can do is think about what you
will do if the situation occurs before it occurs and when/if it does, be alert to what's going
on, stay calm and deal with whatever the situation is. Using your head is even more important in
a crisis.
Lee
J Shepherd
Can we have a straw poll?
Returns on the following questions;
Were you taught to hand off the octopus or your 'primary'?
Were you taught that a diver is more likely to go for your
octopus or your primary?
*If* you have been in an OOA situation either as donor or
recipient, was it the primary or the secondary which was handed
off/taken?
IME this stuff about the reg from your gob going is bollocks.
Reasons to expect the octopus to be taken -
i) they can see it; from behind, beside, in front, where-ever
(assuming you colour your hoses).
ii) they know you will let them have it.
iii) they know it works - regs fail open 98/100, not closed.
Therefore if it isn't blowing it works.
If you do hand off the reg in your mouth, for a short while,
both of you are without regs. A lot can happen in a short while. Removal
of a regulator at a time of stress is not to be recommended.
The primary hand off is a hand-me-down from mix diving where you
take the GAS MIXTURE which you know is safe at that depth, not one of
the other regs.
Yet *another* piece of techdiving shit which has no place in the
recreational world.
The story about 1' handoffs has been given scientific 'evidence'
by those who started some years ago to sell AirIIs and Octopluses. No
mention of it before then (according to several conversations with
oldies in the UK - it may have been discussed elsewhere).
And as I say IM*E* it doesn't happen.
back to the octpus side - what sort of regs have you got? It
makes sense to mount it on the right unless you want to spend 5mins
waiting for the shop tech to switch the second stage round. *Or* you can
get a sidemount diaphragm and play once you get home. No need for U
turns unless you reg is seriously lacking iin LP ports, most will take
D/S, BC, 1', 2' and have an LP free! Just shuffle.
In terms of behaviour of the system, it all depends on you; when
your octopus is taken, you will have the option of controlling the
ascent; you choose side by side, face to face or 'victorian love seat'.
You rig your kit to deliver. The casualties role is to avoid panic.
It makes very little difference where the octo is as long as;
i) it's highly visible,
ii) it's freely available
iii) *you* can reach it easily
Priorities, people.
Jason
j...@thecore.com
renwic...@ic.gc.ca wrote:
>As a PADI OW diver, I am used to having my safe second (octopus reg)
>placed on the right side for buddy breathing, etc., but while taking a
>NASDS advanced course, I see that their approach is to have it on the
>left side so that the reg and hose are in proper form. I've been told
>that NASDS has always done this and it is a safer method for low or out
>of air situations. After trying it for a while, it makes sense, but is
>there a move at large to standardize this one way or another among all
>agencies?
your some what correct but the real reason for slinging the second under the
left arm is so two divers can swim side by side while the diver giving the air
can retain the primary 2nd stage . how ever should YOU have a primary 2nd stage
faliure you then need to know how to clear an upside down safe second or octo
this requires more time in the basic open water class to teach and god knows at
$99 and less we just can't aford the time to teach it
jb[\]
das...@uwoadmin.uwo.ca
>Typically most 'out of air' situations will evolve into the victim grabbing your
>regulator out of your mouth thus forcing you to take the octi.
>--
>Ed Streeet, CNA
> A.K.A. BlackNet Runner
><Power to the People>
If you are going to work on the premise that the victom will grb your
regulator - put a long hose on your primary instead of your octapus.
There are several advantages to having the octopus on the left
1. It fits into the victoms mouth properly, exhaust ports down, no kinks in
the hoses while maintaining a "strong grip" on the reg. (fingers over the hose
and thumb on the purge button so both you and the victom can work the button)
2. It leaves your right hand free to hold the victom's left BC Strap AND
control their BC inflator without removing your had controlling the octopus
3. The victoms face is dead straight infront of yours, not off to theside, so
you maintain eye contact with them.
Apparently there are octopus regs made for the right side that have th eports
facing the right direction
Lee Bell
In <dasjwm.17...@uwoadmin.uwo.ca> das...@uwoadmin.uwo.ca writes:
>Typically most 'out of air' situations will evolve into the victim
>grabbing your . . .
No flame intended, but there is nothing "Typical" about out of air
situations. Every one is unexpected, unique and poses its own set of
problems and risks. There are things you can do to prepare to help or
be helped on one, but in any OOA situation, your best tool for survival
is a calm, working mind.
Lee
Lee Bell
In <4uva7o$j...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> j...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (J Shepherd)
writes:
>
> Can we have a straw poll?
>
>
> Returns on the following questions;
>
> Were you taught to hand off the octopus or your 'primary'?
>
> Were you taught that a diver is more likely to go for your
>octopus or your primary?
>
> *If* you have been in an OOA situation either as donor or
>recipient, was it the primary or the secondary which was handed
>off/taken?
Like every poll, someone will throw a wrench into the results. This
time it's me. I wasn't taught to use an octopus, they hadn't been
tought of when I was taught. When I learned to use one, it was on the
right side, where it remained until I switched to a combination unit
which is, by necessity, on my left.
I've been in OOA situations (the other guy, not me). In the early
ones, we buddy breathed and I controlled the regulator at all times.
You'd be surprised how cooperative someone gets when you have a firm
grip on the only source of air. In my octopus years, the OOA diver got
the octopus because I saw him/her coming and had it waiting. It was
only recently that I even learned the OOA signal. Trust me, when your
buddy is OOA, you don't need a hand sign to know (although it helps).
His/her need is quite obvious. Most recently, since changing to my
combination unit, the buddy gets my primary. My secondary is not long
enough to give to someone else safely and, being my source of buoyancy
control as well, it's safer, by far, for me to retain control of it.
Lee
Tom
> In <4uva7o$j...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk> j...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (J Shepherd)
> writes:
> >
> > Can we have a straw poll?
Apparently we can.
> >
> > Were you taught to hand off the octopus or your 'primary'?
Octopus, if I'm able to choose (see next answer).
> >
> > Were you taught that a diver is more likely to go for your
> >octopus or your primary?
I was taught that a diver is more likely to go for my primary, but I've
been drilled for both panicked victims and um, not so panicked victims.
> >
> > *If* you have been in an OOA situation either as donor or
> >recipient, was it the primary or the secondary which was handed
> >off/taken?
>
Never been there, never done that. The one time I witnessed an OOA
situation, the Donor handed the Dummy his secondary. The OOA diver was
pretty calm, maybe because the conditions were benign (25' deep, warm
water, good vis, no current, etc.) and there were lots of other divers
around.
Phillip Finch
j...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (J Shepherd) wrote:
> IME this stuff about the reg from your gob going is bollocks.
> Reasons to expect the octopus to be taken -
> i) they can see it; from behind, beside, in front, where-ever
>(assuming you colour your hoses).
He can also see you expelling bubbles from the second stage in your
mouth. In fact, he's likely to be fixated on it. He *knows* he can
find what he wants there. Even a novice diver reflexively expects to
find air around his mouth--or in somebody else's--not down around the
waist, or wherever else you hang your octo.
> ii) they know you will let them have it.
To the extent that somebody in a pure panic stops to figure things
out. In many cases that extent will be almost nil.
Just as likely, the decision-making process devolves to "I'm grabbing
the first reg I can get my hands on." That turns it into a coin flip.
Heads, he plays by the rules and takes the octo--congratulations, you
win the sweepstakes. Tails, you have a thrashing diver all over you,
trying to pull the reg from your mouth.
In the immortal words of Dirty Harry Callahan: "Do you feel lucky
today?"
> iii) they know it works - regs fail open 98/100, not closed.
>Therefore if it isn't blowing it works.
Do you really, honestly, expect an OOA diver to make this kind of
analysis? Somehow, I don't think so. In a panic, the statement that
"if it isn't blowing, it must be the one I want" is not likely to be
uppermost in most divers' minds.
(Besides, this analysis assumes that the octopus was checked and
functioning well when the owner took it down. Probably so, but who
knows for sure at that instant? If I really need a breath, and I have
two regulators within arm's length, I'm going to reach for the one
that was blowing bubbles five seconds ago).
The fact is, though, that a panicking diver isn't going to stop and
think things through in this manner. He's going to grab the first
mouthpiece that looks like it might have a breath of air in it for
him. And the odds are at least 50-50 that the one he tries to grab is
the one in your mouth.
> If you do hand off the reg in your mouth, for a short while,
>both of you are without regs. A lot can happen in a short while. Removal
>of a regulator at a time of stress is not to be recommended.
True. The unexpected, forcible removal of that regulator, by a
panicked diver who is climbing all over you, is even worse. Much
worse.
Switching to an octopus is no big deal if you're expecting to do it.
Doing it under pressure, in the middle of a struggle, is another
matter. And that's a situation which can be avoided if you immediately
hand off the reg in your mouth.
> The primary hand off is a hand-me-down from mix diving where you
>take the GAS MIXTURE which you know is safe at that depth, not one of
>the other regs.
> Yet *another* piece of techdiving shit which has no place in the
>recreational world.
I wouldn't mention this, but I note that you invoke WKPP somewhat
favorably in another thread on buddy/solo diving. So here goes: Unless
I'm badly mistaken, the standard WKPP rig is to breathe the long hose,
and give it up in an OOA situation. (The backup reg hangs around the
neck, close to the mouth).
Before you dismiss this as just another piece of tech voodoo, consider
the reasons *why* WKPP does it this way. (It doesn't have anything to
do with mixed gas diving per se).
Bill Gavin, one of the original WKPP honchos, has a great chapter in
"The Art of Safe Cave Diving" that explains it, and he blows away all
the arguments for the alternative method. What it boils down to is
that the WKPP expects its divers, in an OOA situation, to grab for
the obviously functioning reg. To keep a bad situation from getting
worse, you give it to him, and pop in your backup.
I'm not a tekkie, but I like the WKPP approach of anticipating the
worst and preparing to deal with it in the most efficient way.
Recreation diving could use a lot more of that shit. This practice, in
particular, makes sense to me. I can't think of a better way to calm
a diver in an OOA panic than to place a working regulator, belching
air, a few inches in front of his face.
I know where that reg is (and so does he): it's the one in my mouth.
> It makes very little difference where the octo is as long as;
> i) it's highly visible,
> ii) it's freely available
> iii) *you* can reach it easily
The reg in the mouth fulfills each of these requirements at least as
well as an octopus.
i) Visible? What's more visible to an OOA diver than a regulator that
is already blowing bubbles? Besides, everybody knows where it is,
without looking. (Close your eyes. Find a reg on your rig. Now find
the reg on the other guy's rig...)
ii)Available? I open my mouth, there it is. If I wear my backup the
right way, I don't skip a breath. And, even better, I get to put it in
without a thrashing diver hung all over me.
iii) Easy to reach? When you really need it, the reg between your
teeth is *the* easiest to find and reach and hand off.
Breathe the long hose, and be prepared to give it up.
Scott Unser
Your Instructor isn't from Arizona by any chance is he?
(Long and pathetic story, email if you want it.)
Jason Rogers
I wasn't taught either as such, as I learnt before occies came about.
I've been the out of air dope, and I made a couple of vauge wavy motions
with my hands (as my brother tells it. I remembered making a very
clear "I need to buddy breathe" signal), then ripped the reg right
out of my brother's mouth.
Cheers Jason =:)
j...@thecore.com
j...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (J Shepherd) wrote:
> It makes very little difference where the octo is as long as;
> i) it's highly visible,
> ii) it's freely available
> iii) *you* can reach it easily
> Priorities, people.
> Jason
this is true for open water however jason the octo config does make a diferince
in a over head enviorment as an example, cavern diving no direct acent divers
MUST swim out - one thing to point out is that with the octo under the rite arm
the recieving diver must place it in there mouth upside down to swim side by
side with the donating diver .how many divers do you know that have been trained
to clear an upside down unit? not many . now with it under the left arm there is
no problem handing the octo off and also having enough space between two divers
to swim side by side , the only thing is the donating diver needs to be
trained how to clear an upside down unit ,should he ever have to go to his octo.
btw my units have NO octo's I ALWAYS carry a 30cu pony with a 7foot yellow hose
either tank mounted or[ cross chest mounted w\releases depending on how my back
feels b-4 i dive!!!!!!!!!!]
J Shepherd
David Kipling <dav...@hgu.mrc.ac.uk> writes:
>Hi Jason
> Dive with me and you probably wouldn't go for my primary. I
>spend quite a lot of my time close to the substratum looking at things,
>peering into holes etc [the only way to see things in low viz]. If
>you're my buddy you might be lucky and catch me mid-water or when I look
>round at you, but most of the time the chances are what you'll see of me
>is a shot of the back or side of my head.
Yup!
> What you *do* see is a yellow hose snaking over one shoulder and
>if you're bright you'll follow the hose down (if you're behind to to my
>RHS) as you know there is an octo on the end of it, as opposed to
>reaching round my head and ripping the primary out of my mouth :-)
Wouldn't dream of it dear boy.
> In contrast, in he confined quarters of a cave I can imagine
>there being plenty of times when you could reach the primary (on his
>head) as opposed to scrabbling underneath for an octo. Maybe this is a
>driving force for the 7' hose?
No - the driver force for the 7' hose is that to get through
restrictions which only allow one diver at a time, you have to travel
line-astern, and the hose passes to the diver 'beneath' your feet.
The primary is for mix reasons.
A 7' hose in open water has to be properly stowed (down side,
under light or in belt on right, across chest, around the back of the
neck and into the mouth).
When deployed, you have 7' of rubber to worry about. *If* you
are following rule no.1, you signal and start leaving. If not, you have
a firm grip of your buddy anyway, so what is the point?
In OW, lose contact and someone dies.
>David
>Edinburgh
>Last dive: yesterday, 22m on the Rhondo followed by similar on Heather
>Island (Oban). 13oC, 6m viz, great fun.
:-) There are a couple of swim-throughs under the hull, one at
25m, I can't remember where the other is (they're easy to find; just go
to the bottom and lok for them as you come up) did you find either of
them?
Jason
Last dive; the Yetts. 65', 13.6m. Next time, I do this at slack.
J Shepherd
reply to Phillip Finch;
I replied in private since I checked my mail before reading
this; Philip feel free to repost the reply publically if you want;
My summary;
Divers take i) what they're given, ii) what they were taught,
iii) the nearest reg depending on panic. My point is that the primary is
rarely nearest reg. All this about handoffs is nuts; if you have time ot
hand off, you can choose which they get. If you don't, and they've taken
it, the first you know is either they're tapping on your shoulder to
tell you they've taken it, or you're hunting for your reg!
The only reason so many go for the primary is that that is what
they've been taught. Self fulfilling prophecy.
Jason
Jeff Bell
j...@thecore.com wrote:
>this is true for open water however jason the octo config does make a diferince
>in a over head enviorment as an example, cavern diving no direct acent divers
>MUST swim out - one thing to point out is that with the octo under the rite arm
>the recieving diver must place it in there mouth upside down to swim side by
>side with the donating diver .how many divers do you know that have been trained
>to clear an upside down unit? not many . now with it under the left arm there is
>no problem handing the octo off and also having enough space between two divers
>to swim side by side , the only thing is the donating diver needs to be
>trained how to clear an upside down unit ,should he ever have to go to his octo.
>btw my units have NO octo's I ALWAYS carry a 30cu pony with a 7foot yellow hose
>either tank mounted or[ cross chest mounted w\releases depending on how my back
>feels b-4 i dive!!!!!!!!!!]
Couple of points to add.
(1) Requirements of an overhead environment dictate a minimum 5 foot
octopus hose to solve the issue you raised. I personally use a 9 foot
hose in caves since I am 6'1" and have a good 2' of fin behind me. If
going thru a restriction where single file would be required, I am now
an 8 foot long donor, the extra foot helps keep my buddy from jetting
kicked (in theory)
(2) The first rule in Rescue. Never put the Rescuer's life in
jeopardy. If you help an OOA diver great, but you don't put your life
at risk to do so. *I think we can all agree that any form of rescue
will involve SOME risk. but the point is not to do anything that will
increase this risk* The idea here is the premis that your rig should
be set up for your use. If in an overhead environment this point is
even more dramatic. Cave teaches self rescue, you have to be able to
solve your own problems. your buddy is the ultimate backup. Anyone
going in has assumed their own risk. My cave rig is set up for my
convenience, not someone elses.
Just my $.02
Jeff