Geroge Irvine
Carlos Ricoarango
I am relatively new to this ng as well as diving. I was certified
in 94' and after 270 dives I hold a decompressions procedures
certification from TDI. I had a womderful istructor (Mr. Peter Schultz)
Who was extremely patient and safety a primary cocern.
In a recent issue of Deep Tech, fully on quater of the magazine
was dedicated to what an asshole and dangerous man George is. As an
infrequent reader of this journal and not personaly knowing Mr. Irvine
I thought, what an unfair character assasination of someone who does not
have the resources at their disposal as Deep Tech has. And oh by the way
what a shity first impresion of a magazine. Mr.Volker's assesment of
inept instructors in the recent loss of a diver in Florida mirror my
sentiments, since I've been looking to do my Cavern cert. and looking
for the right individual.
All I know is that Mr. Irvine came to Pomapno Fl. and found one of our
divers and no doubt has the same sentiments as Mr. Volker as do I.
Soooooo, Deep Tech keep your personal shit out of the public or offer
Mr. Irvine unedited access to your rag in the same voluminous way you
did. Your assesment of his opinion on what tech instructors are doing
wrong seems to underscore what he has been saying all along given this
recent tragedy. I know that I speak for all S.Fl. divers in expresing
our deepest sympathy for her loss.
Respectfuly
C. Rico
Carlos Ricoarango
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote:
>
> Carlos Ricoarango <cuba...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> Message-ID: <6il2a9$5...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
>
> >In a recent issue of Deep Tech, fully on quater of the magazine
> >was dedicated to what an asshole and dangerous man George is.
>
> follow-up as I'll be spending all but 3 days of the next 6 weeks
> diving in the Caribbean. But I am compelled to respond to Carlos'
> post, for reasons you'll see.
>
> Carlos, you are quite wrong in calling the articles there "an
> unfair character assasination" of George.
>
> I thought Bret Gilliam did an excellent job documenting George's
> character by amply quoting what George posted in the Caver's list.
> Those passenges mirror George Irvine's character perfectly even
> without any commentary. Bret's article can be seen in full in
>
> http://www.tdiusa.com/articles/fear.html
>
> One passage in Bret's article on George's behavior in the tragic
> death of another caver, Rob Palmer, reminded me of a less tragic
> incident (in which I played the role of a messager to the Caver
> community, though I was/am neither a techdiver nor a caver) and
> George acted EXACTLY the same, senseless way. This was what
> Bret wrote about George regarding Rob's death,
>
> >Because the news was already on the Internet and several pompous
> >self-righteous morons couldn't wait to be the first to sound off with an
> >opinion. Never mind that they had no facts or any sensitivity for his
> >widow. But they couldn't wait to log on and flame away. One of the first
> >was George Irvine who took the opportunity to call Rob a "dumb fuck"
> >who deserved to die.
>
> In June 1996, my friend Chuck Jones sent me an advisory concerning the
> unjust arrest and jailing (including Chuck himself, as the result of
> some dirty politics in Mexico) of a team of six divers in the recovery
> of artifacts from the Cenote Chuu Ha under the supervision of an
> archaeologist of the federal agency INAH (The National Institute of
> Anthropology and History).
>
> Since I subscribe to neither Techdiver nor the Caver's list, I asked
> Carl Heinzl to post for me, on behalf of Chuck Jones, his piece of
> advisory, to those lists.
>
> George Irvine had NO FACTS whatsoever, but wasted no time to post this:
>
> >Subject: Re: Message from Chuck Jones - Cozumel
> >To: Carl Heinzl <c...@martigny.ai.mit.edu>, tech...@terra.net
> >Cc: cav...@geek.com
> >
> > Carl, tell this worthless asshole to get the proper permits before he goes
> >pillaging sites that are sacred to Mayans. This guy is a clown, and he needs to
> >be in jail along with the bonesmuggelers he dives with. Did he have the
> >Transformer with him on this trip, or just Diver Dave, Leave 'Em Dead In The
> >Cave, Millhollin?
> >
> > Mexico is a very easy place to do things if you do them right, a concept
> >that is totally foreign to guys like Jones. I'd like to see them just go ahead
> >and shoot this parasite, rather than take up jail space.
> >
> > Jones is a hugely officious weenie who would not spend five cents to do
> >what it takes to satisfy the Mexican officials. He is donw there strutting
> >around like the godfather of cave diving in the worst weenieland of them all
>
> Of course George was proven within a week that he was TOTALLY wrong
> about his speculations, but it struck me as "odd" at the time, to
> put it mildly, that one caver could treat other "fellow' cavers' plight
> the way George Irvine did it, with complete prejudice and ignorance and
> utter disregard of fair play and human decency.
>
> That was promptly followed by George's follow-up to my reply:
>
> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:16:44 -0700
> From: "G. M. I. III" <gmi...@interserv.com>
> Subject: Re: 2nd Message from Chuck Jones
>
> The fact is that you are "clueless" . We could care less if this
> parasite got
> jailed - he needs it. He probably liked it , too. I know his pal Diver
> Dave
> would, and the Transfromer probably didn't want to leave.
>
> On Wed, 26 Jun 96, Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
> <RF...@CLEMSON.EDU>
> wrote:
> >I was the one who forwarded the news about Chuck Jones for Carl Heinzl
> >to post for me on the Caver's List and Techdiver.
> >
> >I was quite disturbed by the fact that instead of giving their fellow
> >cavers MORAL SUPPORT (if nothing else) in their difficult times, two
> >readers on these lists IMMEDIATELY FLAMED Chuck BEFORE any facts were
> >known to them about the case other than what was posted (and certainly
> >NOT the guilt or innocence of the 6 divers charged). I had privately
> >told Carl that those posters were CLUELESS about Mexican Law or politics
> >nor cenote diving in Cozumel, and told Carl WHY! But I wanted to wait
> >till I hear from Chuck himself before posting.
> >
> >I just received this GOOD NEWS from Chuck Jones:
> >
> >> Date: 26 Jun 96 15:32:17 EDT
> >>
> >> Bob,
> >>
> >> Thanks for your support.
> >>
> >> We are all free now and all charges are dropped. We have been
> >> offiicially cleared of any wrongdoing or intent Our gear and cars have
> >> been released back to us and we are checking for damage.
> >>
> >> I will give you more details soon,
> >>
> >> Chuck
> >
> >I'll continue to update you on this case.
> >
> >Remember folks, Chuck's original message was to WARN fellow divers (in
> >his "W Y A" (Watch Your Ass) advice that
> >
> >in Mexican Law, if charged, you are GUILTY UNTIL proven INNOCENT.
> >
> >In Western Law, if charged, you are INNOCENT UNTIL proven GUILTY.
> >
> >If was supreme irony that the two posters (you know who they are!)
> >declared Chuck GUILTY, speculated on WHY, flamed Chuck based on their
> >speculations, BEFORE they had any FACTS for their unsubstantiated opinion!
> >And they are in the United States, and cavers! Sheesh!
> >
> >Chuck Jones et al HAVE PROVEN (according to Mexican Law) their INNOCENCE!
> >*************************************************************************
> >
> >-- Bob.
> >--
> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `tech...@terra.net'.
> >Send subscription/archive requests to `techdive...@terra.net'.
>
> What did George Irvine have to say about "shooting Chuck" and all
> his false speculations (not getting permits, etc.) that had been
> proven false? He said they STILL should have shot Chuck!
>
> What was it that gave George such animosity toward Chuck? I verified
> it (independently from George and Chuck) that about 5 years before,
> Chuck had injudiciously asked George to show his C-card (when G wanted
> to rent some cave equipment in Cozumel, and Chuck didn't know George
> was God at the time).
>
> Before then, I had more or less overlooked George Irvine's antics as
> a way of getting attention to get his message across, regarding
> cave-diving techniques, of which he is clearly knowledgeable. I've
> been around NGs and lists long enough to know how to cut through the
> noise to extract whatever bits of some signals.
>
> But the Chuck Jones incident left no doubt whatsoever in my mind about
> the PETTINESS of George Irvine, his complete LACK of sense of MORALITY
> and FAIR PLAY, and his low-level mentality as a human being. My
> assessment of George Irvine's character coincided with that of Bret
> Gilliam, expressed in his Deep Tech article.
>
> Carlos Ricoarango, get your sympathy from the WKPP group and take your
> whining about how George has been unfairly treated back to the CAVER'S
> list.
>
> -- Bob.
I was reading your post with intrest until the end where you suggest
I was "whining". I have very little use for verbal attacks.
The purpose of the post, and still is, is the opportunity of equal
response particularly after such attack
RICO
Carlos Ricoarango
John Brett wrote:
>
> On Mon, 04 May 1998 00:10:03 -0700, Carlos Ricoarango
> <cuba...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >In a recent issue of Deep Tech, fully on quater of the magazine
> George Irvine has frequently and publicly attacked TDI's policy of
> teaching deep air.
>
> TDI is owned by Bret Gilliam.
> DeepTech is owned by Bret Gilliam.
>
> You've already worked out the answer, now you know the reason.
>
> As Reef Fish points out, GMIII is rarely diplomatic, quick to condem,
> and harsh in his judgements. Given the number of bodies of friends &
> 'technical diving' students he's recovered, I no longer find his
> attitude surprising.
>
> His motives, however, have always been to improve the safety of the
> technical side of diving, and I've always found him very willing to
> help. Look at the message, not the delivery.
>
> John Brett
Sir;
You also left out some other equipment mfg. intrests.
Mr. Gilliam's accomplishments are many and his diving ability way beyond
that of 99.99% of the diving community. However, Mr. Gilliam was not my
intructor and I do not subscribe to deep air. I remember reading
about Mr. Gilliam's 200+fsw dive on reck wings and and aluminum 80
As for TDI, My current c-card acknowledges my ability to use
"NITOX"
nuf said
Rico
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
Carlos Ricoarango <cuba...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
Message-ID: <6il2a9$5...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
>In a recent issue of Deep Tech, fully on quater of the magazine
John Brett
<snip>
>In a recent issue of Deep Tech, fully on quater of the magazine
Dan Volker
John Brett wrote in article <354ed837...@nnrp.news.uk.psi.net>...
In the last 10 years since I started diving with George, he has always
looked for better and safer ways to tech dive. This is what originally got
him in to cave diving----it was a way to obtain a higher order of skills,
which would make the deep ocean diving safer. This desire pushed George into
working together with Dr. Bill Hamilton on experimental trimix and O2 deco
tables, back in the early 90's, which led to the WKPP's dramatically better
system of gas utilization ( far better than "posers" like Mount and IANTD,
who never really understood what is was they should be trying to
accomplish). When George became director of the WKPP around '94, he
instituted what they now call the "Doing it Right" philosophy, which ALL
team members had to follow if they wanted to be in the water. With
implementation of this system, accidents stopped happening, even though
going over a mile into a cave is far more dangerous than any deep ocean dive
on 300 reefs or wreck will ever be. One of the "MAJOR" elements in George's
philosophy was the way the "Buddy system" is used. George liked what PADI
and NAUI had started with buddy systems, and was appalled at the stupidity
that came out of guys like Tom Mount and Brett Gilliam, (IANTD, TDI) where
they created an entirely different conception of buddy system
interaction----these guys pushed the idea that each diver needed to be
totally self sufficient, and buddies were there, but not really there for
"you"---they were not to be counted on, and the only person you were
responsible for was yourself. This"enlightened Self Interest" sickened
George, and his Doing it Right philosophy would dramatically differ from the
"tech agency" stupidity. George had all his people dive EXACTLY the same
gear configuration, and dive EXACTLY the same procedures. Anyone they would
dive with, would dive just like them, and solve problems essentially the
same way----and your choice of buddies one considered one of your very most
essential gear choices. Your buddy was your redundant backup, and you are
his redundant backup. If your buddy runs out of gas, its as much YOUR FAULT
as it is his, since you should know your buddies gas supply at all times, as
he should know yours. While this is just one small part of the Doing it
right system, it immediately began saving lives. This is also the reason
that George was so upset over the recent death of the girl in Pompano Beach.
This poor girl was "buddied" to an instructor----her instructor. She ,
according to this Dereck guy ( her instructor) signaled to him she was out
of deco gas after they had returned from the bottom and worked their way up
to the 40 foot stop. Dereck should have been monitoring her gas usage, and
should have known exactly how she was doing. In fact, she had plenty of gas
left in her deco tank---we all saw this when we got her body on the
boat----yet Derek thought she was out of deco from the signal she gave him,
and chose to signal her to go up to the 30 foot stop by herself, and breathe
her oxygen mix ( 80/20) .....He SHOULD have been glued to her at this
time----an emergency was in progress, since after a 5 to 13 minute bottom
time, no where near enough deco gas could have been used to have emptied her
deco bottle. Yet Derek ignored this, as well as his responsibility to air
share with his buddy---and he sent her up by herself. When she blacked out a
few moments later, and Dereck was not watching his buddy, his student, she
fell toward the bottom. Dereck saw her falling first 20 feet below him, then
50 feet below, and then out of sight. He said on TV last night he could not
go after his student ( who had put her life in his hands) because he was
down to 1500psi in his back tanks----but these were low pressure 100's, and
he had only used up about a third of his total gas.
Derek may have learned a terrible lesson from IANTD----that a diver is on
his/her own if tech diving with other divers, and even with the buddy. If
IANTD ( Tom MOUNT ) had listened to George about proper use of the buddy
system, or about proper gear configurations, or about how much time you
really need on deco, then this girl Jane would be far more likely to be
alive today.
George has been warning Mount and Gilliam about this type of thing for
years. After seeing many deaths occur due to these guys ignoring his
warnings, George started insulting these guys and their instructors, on the
tech list and cavers, since he felt they were murdering fools, and he could
not sugar coat this, or suck up to their massive egos.
When we brought Jane up on Sunday, George sat by himself afterward for close
to 40 minutes, and would not talk to anyone. It soon became apparent he was
visibly upset, and just trying to contain it. He knew the girl's death was
caused by the failure of his warnings to be heeded.
This is NOT a rivalry between George/WKPP and IANTD. One is a scientific
team of divers. Non profit. They have made repeated safety warnings for over
5 years, with no commercial benefit. IANTD is a commercial entity that makes
huge money training people, in a manner that we see as blatantly unsafe.
IANTD has more accidents and deaths than you can count, while WKPP has the
most spotless safety record in diving. who do you want to listen to???
From what I have just experienced, I do not think George has been harsh
enough with Mount or Gilliam. They have contributed to the deaths of too
many divers, and they are creating an image in the general public's mind, of
diving as an "unsafe" sport----while the only thing that is really unsafe is
their teaching and training methods. It has to stop. We cannot let these
fools keep killing people.
Dan Volker
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
John Brett wrote:
>
> As Reef Fish points out, GMIII is rarely diplomatic, quick to condem,
> and harsh in his judgements. Given the number of bodies of friends &
> 'technical diving' students he's recovered, I no longer find his
> attitude surprising.
I've always given George the benefit of the doubt as to whether his
primary concern is cave-diving safety or is he driven by the dark
side of his persona, on matters quite unrelated to dive safety, or
diving, for that matter.
IMHO, the saddest part of George's behavior is that even under the
assumption of the purest and most noble motives on his part, his
tactics and antics did little to improve the safety in 'technical
diving', beyond some useful TECHNIQUES he has added and disseminated
to the technical diving community at large.
> His motives, however, have always been to improve the safety of the
> technical side of diving, and I've always found him very willing to
> help. Look at the message, not the delivery.
>
> John Brett
Yes, John. There is SOME truth to that. But look at the case I
posted about Chuck Jones. There was NEVER any issue of "improving
the safety of the technical side of diving". It was an archeological
expedition in which "dive safety" was not the issue of concern,
before, during, or after the incident. Nevertheless, George Irvine
plunged in with his gratuitous attack that was based on nothing but
his own prejudice and ignorance about the case.
In fact, it was THAT incident that had shattered the "benefit of the
doubt" I had given George in my own mind until then. It had proven
to ME, beyond a shadow of doubt, that it was just George. He has
many ulterior motives, and his acts are driven by demons in his persona
that cannot be written off simply or simplistically as merely a matter
of "dive safety" concerns.
-- Bob.
Scott
Dan,
Thanks. The buddie system is often misunderstood and improperly used. I am
a proponent of the "You are responsible for your own safety" in the context
of not allowing a new "buddie" to get you or him into a situation that is
wrong. I have had many dives over the past few years that I chose to abort,
because my "buddie" was doing things I wasn't comfortable with, or that I
felt we needed to clarify, on the surface. I ALWAYS check my buddies air,
and show him mine. I have had people take offense to this! This ladies
death is so horribly tragic to be beyond words. While we need to be
attendant and aware of our "buddie", no one is bound by any obligation to
dive with an unsafe egomaniac. I believe that self sufficiency is a great
concept, applied properly. How many time have we dove with an individual
and asking and getting the OK when there was obvious stress and discomfort?
How many times during a dive do we look around, only to find our "buddie"
no where in sight? Diving is a macho kind of sport, and it is full of macho
divers, this is not gender specific. I will follow this closely, and share
with people who are not hip to the NG. Please let us know how to help when
it hits the fan, and it does definitely need to hit the fan. Again,
condolences are not enough in this case, the responsible parties must be
held accountable to all divers. Saying this was a tragedy is probably the
understatement of the decade.
Best Regards
Scott
Barney
Dan Volker wrote:
Not you again ASSHOLE, I thought I chased you off once
Begone fag boy
--
Barnacle Barney
Life is a tragedy for those who feel
and a comedy for those who think
'Chinese fortune cookie'
Barney
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote:
> John Brett wrote:
> >
> > As Reef Fish points out, GMIII is rarely diplomatic, quick to condem,
> > and harsh in his judgements. Given the number of bodies of friends &
> > 'technical diving' students he's recovered, I no longer find his
> > attitude surprising.
>
> I've always given George the benefit of the doubt as to whether his
> primary concern is cave-diving safety or is he driven by the dark
> side of his persona, on matters quite unrelated to dive safety, or
> diving, for that matter.
>
> IMHO, the saddest part of George's behavior is that even under the
> assumption of the purest and most noble motives on his part, his
> tactics and antics did little to improve the safety in 'technical
> diving', beyond some useful TECHNIQUES he has added and disseminated
> to the technical diving community at large.
>
>
> > His motives, however, have always been to improve the safety of the
> > technical side of diving, and I've always found him very willing to
> > help. Look at the message, not the delivery.
> >
> > John Brett
>
> Yes, John. There is SOME truth to that. But look at the case I
> posted about Chuck Jones. There was NEVER any issue of "improving
> the safety of the technical side of diving". It was an archeological
> expedition in which "dive safety" was not the issue of concern,
> before, during, or after the incident. Nevertheless, George Irvine
> plunged in with his gratuitous attack that was based on nothing but
> his own prejudice and ignorance about the case.
>
> In fact, it was THAT incident that had shattered the "benefit of the
> doubt" I had given George in my own mind until then. It had proven
> to ME, beyond a shadow of doubt, that it was just George. He has
> many ulterior motives, and his acts are driven by demons in his persona
> that cannot be written off simply or simplistically as merely a matter
> of "dive safety" concerns.
>
> -- Bob.
--
Dan Volker
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote in article
<354F0F...@clemson.edu>...
Bob,
I understand how it may "sound " like this to you. But you have not been
close to the background of tech diving long enough to see the whole
pattern......George was one of the very first---he did trimix
experimentation long before mount and giliam, and perfected it, while they
still fail miserably at it, and train people dangerously with their
misinformation. George used to try to explain in detail to these people,
first on boats, then on private e-mail. The egos of Gilliam and Mount were
far too large for them to listen, so they insisted on doing things their own
ways. As they began killing people with their stupid, ego driven delusions
about how to approach decompression diving to 200 feet and greater, George
became exsaperated with them, and the MOUNT or Giliam "wannabes" . The
"slams" he became famous for were used because he felt it was NOT
appropriate to stroke the ego of foolish men who were murdering people with
their gross negligence. The attitudes of many, well represented in the
swaggering assurance of Divers Supply's IANTD instructor Andre Smith ( now
deceased along with the 2 divers he took with him), are sickening to
George-----he see's a man who pretends to the world to be the guy who "wrote
the book" on tech diving, yet breaks every rule of common sense, and
stupidly places the lives of his students in jeopardy. ( However, at least
Andre had the balls to try to save his student, while the lastest pretender
to tech greatness--Derek, choose to sit by, cowardly watching her drop from
view.) This species of IANTD instructor is like a cancer, spreading within
the agency. George has no tolerance for this cancer, and either do I.
Every good IANTD instructor I know is SICKENED by the latest event, and they
want IANTD action----they don't want to be associated with dangerous
instructors---they want Mount to start reviewing and pulling cards from the
bad seeds. This must happen immediately, before more people die, and before
the public begins to believe it is DIVING that is dangerous, instead of some
bad instructors and a bad agency that is dangerous. Like I said--- I know
some great IANTD instructors---hell, the best cave diving instructor in
America, Jarrod Jablonski, is a certified IANTD instructor, but this
affiliation has now become a severe liability to Jarrod, and I expect he
will make a DRASTIC change to this affiliation within the week---i.e., he
will terminate his IANTD affiliation, permanently....as will many other of
the better instructors, who can no longer tolerate being associated with Tom
Mount and his band of negligently murdering idiots.
Dan Volker
Jeff Bentley
So Bob,
What does Brett Gilliams dick taste like?
Jeff
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote:
>
snip
>
> Carlos, you are quite wrong in calling the articles there "an
> unfair character assasination" of George.
>
> I thought Bret Gilliam did an excellent job documenting George's
> character by amply quoting what George posted in the Caver's list.
> Those passenges mirror George Irvine's character perfectly even
> without any commentary. Bret's article can be seen in full in
>
snip
>
> -- Bob.
--
Jeff Bentley jben...@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~jbentley
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
Dan Volker wrote:
>
> Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote in article
> <354F0F...@clemson.edu>...
Dan,
I've read what you post here, supposedly in reply to my posting, in one
of your earlier postings on this thread already. You didn't address
MY POINT about the Chuck Jones archeological expedition incident:
> >> His motives, however, have always been to improve the safety of the
> >> technical side of diving, and I've always found him very willing to
> >> help. Look at the message, not the delivery.
> >>
> >> John Brett
> >
> >Yes, John. There is SOME truth to that. But look at the case I
> >posted about Chuck Jones. There was NEVER any issue of "improving
> >the safety of the technical side of diving". It was an archeological
> >expedition in which "dive safety" was not the issue of concern,
> >before, during, or after the incident. Nevertheless, George Irvine
> >plunged in with his gratuitous attack that was based on nothing but
> >his own prejudice and ignorance about the case.
> >
> >In fact, it was THAT incident that had shattered the "benefit of the
> >doubt" I had given George in my own mind until then. It had proven
> >to ME, beyond a shadow of doubt, that it was just George. He has
> >many ulterior motives, and his acts are driven by demons in his persona
> >that cannot be written off simply or simplistically as merely a matter
> >of "dive safety" concerns.
> >
> >-- Bob.
Dan, you went on to talk about
> experimentation long before mount and giliam, and perfected it, while they
< ... >
> swaggering assurance of Divers Supply's IANTD instructor Andre Smith ( now
< ... >
> to tech greatness--Derek, choose to sit by, cowardly watching her drop from
< ... >
> bad instructors and a bad agency that is dangerous. Like I said--- I know
< ... >
all of which were deja vu, to me, many many times, written by you.
But how does any of THAT relate to the Chuck Jones incident in question?
I for one would very much like to hear George Irvine's rationale in his
approach, why he posted what he did, and his complete absence of regret
nor apology, in the Cozumel archeological expedition incident.
I think I've posted MORE than I had intended to, and have covered ALL
the POINTS I have to make, and have already used up more time than I can
afford at this time.
For others who want to follow-up on the Chuck Jones incident in the
George Irvine thread and its relation/non-relation to DIVE SAFETY,
please read my THREE postings on the subject, this morning, my replies
to (1) Carlos Ricoarango, (2) John Brett, and(3) Dan Volker (here).
Safe Diving to all,
-- Bob.
Dan Volker
Barney wrote an insult in article <354F4301...@home.com>...
To the fake Barney:
Who ever this is---I really doubt its the real Barney.....
Anyone can make an insult on their computer---anyone can be a big man from
this protection. If you can't say this to my face in WPB, then why bother
sounding like your ready to take a stand, and pretend to be someone you are
not.....anything I said about Mount, Gilliam, or Dereck, I'll happily say to
their face. Can you say the same thing, and will you back this up with a
visit??? Then why say it if you won't back it up?
More importantly, what reason could you have for starting shit with me, when
all I am doing is trying to prevent more deaths, and increase the quality of
dive instruction----things the "Real Barney" would be squarely behind, from
every post I remember having read from him, prior to all the fake stuff. The
"Real Barney" liked to stir up trouble, but at least he always had the
private agenda of trying to make diving better. If you are the real
Barney, tell me what you posted to me by private e-mail when the Big Trouble
in rec. Scuba thread was a big part of Barney's NG activity. And do this by
private e-mail, because in any event, there is no reason to wage a non-scuba
related battle on rec.scuba.
Dan Volker
Michael Parker
In article <354EA3...@clemson.edu>, "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)"
<RF...@clemson.edu> wrote:
>
> I thought Bret Gilliam did an excellent job documenting George's
> character by amply quoting what George posted in the Caver's list.
> Those passenges mirror George Irvine's character perfectly even
> without any commentary. Bret's article can be seen in full in
>
> http://www.tdiusa.com/articles/fear.html
>
Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't Mr. Gilliam doing the exact
same thing as Mr. Irvine is doing, by publishing that article?
I really liked the quote from Mr. Gilliam to Mr. Irvine via an official TDI
Board of Directors Letter:
"I've yet to ever see you have the courage to confront anyone in person
with your tirades because you know they would probably beat you to a pulp.
It amazes me that Tom Mount and others haven't slapped you silly years
ago."
Remember what Thumper (Disney TM) told us?
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."
Sounds like the most of our diving communities (including rec.scuba) need
to follow Thumper's advice.
Parker
Jammer Six
In article <01bd782b$9e0386c0$64152299@default>, "Scott"
<sco...@internetcdsremovethis.com> wrote:
€> I ALWAYS check my buddies air, and show him mine. I have had people take
offense €> to this!
Yes, because looking at my guage is offensive, and demonstrates a
fundamental lack of understanding of the buddie system.
When you look at my guage, you learn how much gas I am carrying.
When you ASK me how much gas I am carrying, my answer tells you how much
gas I am carrying, whether or not I am capable of responding to signals,
whether or not I am watching you for signals, how much narcosis I am under,
whether or not I can locate, observe, and comprehend the information on my
guage, whether or not I am capable of signalling my gas clearly to you, and
whether I am in control of my bouyancy and emotions. It also provides a
moment of communication, which can be used for any purpose, emergency or
non emergency.
They weren't offended. They were afraid to dive with you.
------------
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you
want to live forever?"
-First Sergeant Dan Daly, 1918
------------
Scott
Dan Volker <d...@gate.net> wrote in article <6inf59$1jau$1...@news.gate.net>...
> Barney wrote an insult in article <354F4301...@home.com>...
>
> To the fake Barney:
<snip>
> More importantly, what reason could you have for starting shit with me,
when
> all I am doing is trying to prevent more deaths, and increase the quality
of
> dive instruction----
Dan,
The real or fake Barney doesnt matter in any way shape or form. I dont care
who is what, anything with Barney on it gets shitcanned immediately. He is
a waste of skin. There are plenty of us out here who realize and appreciate
what you are doing and trying to do. Dont waste another keystroke on
him/them (it). I would say fuck him, but he is not of the human
species......
The real Barney could easily post a PGP key, sign his posts, and anyone who
gives a damn could then tell who is who. Its not up to you or me to defend
his credibility. There is an obvious difference between the two, but I have
niether time nor desire to figure out who is what. The real Barney has got
a problem on his hands.
Scott
--
Here ya go:
webmaster@localhost
abuse@localhost
postmaster@localhost
u...@ftc.gov
Chairman Reed Hundt: rhu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner James Quello: jqu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner Susan Ness: sn...@fcc.gov
Commissioner Rachelle Chong: rch...@fcc.gov
Brian Nadwidny
> all I am doing is trying to prevent more deaths, and increase the quality of
Then why don't you and George start up a new agency? Put up or shut up.
C'mon, I have an open mind and respect the viewpoints of others (unlike
George). If you are so goddamn sure you guys have all the answers then
start a training program.
Brian
Scott
Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> wrote in article
<jammer-ya02408000...@news.oz.net>...
>
> Yes, because looking at my guage is offensive, and demonstrates a
> fundamental lack of understanding of the buddie system.
>
> When you look at my guage, you learn how much gas I am carrying.
>
> When you ASK me how much gas I am carrying, my answer tells you how much
> gas I am carrying, whether or not I am capable of responding to signals,
> whether or not I am watching you for signals, how much narcosis I am
under,
> whether or not I can locate, observe, and comprehend the information on
my
> guage, whether or not I am capable of signalling my gas clearly to you,
and
> whether I am in control of my bouyancy and emotions. It also provides a
> moment of communication, which can be used for any purpose, emergency or
> non emergency.
>
> They weren't offended. They were afraid to dive with you.
You know, its just amazing how you can read so much into so few words. I
didn't go into a blow by blow, move by move replay, because I didn't want
to take up the time and space. I am familiar with all these concepts. The
individuals I was referring to were acting offended, and took offense,
because they I was threatening their macho BS self image. I end up diving
alone a lot, or pairing up with marginal "buddies" quite often. And, for
the record, narcosis was not a factor, I limit my buddy dives to 60 fsw,
unless I know this person and their abilities well. Your response is
exactly typical of the "I know it all, you are dumb as shit" attitude that
is so repulsive, and potentially dangerous. I showed them mine because they
didn't ask at all, in any way!
And, in case you haven't noticed, not a lot of OW divers know or practice
their hand signals. How do I know this? Because two of my regular dive
buddies are instructors, and I often, when diving with the class (by
invitation), get paired up with new divers
If asking to see your gauge, and showing you mine makes you afraid to dive
with me, far out! See you on the surface where we both will be considerably
safer.
Scott
Dawn Nichole Kernagis
Brian,
1) There is a difference between keeping an open mind, and trying to
rationalize abject stupidity.
2)The reason George, and the rest of the project dive the way they do is
because it is proven to be the most effective under the conditions they
have to deal with.
3) Dive instruction is at a pathetic level right now - not that it was
any better 10 years ago, but with everyone "tech-diving", it is putting
already mindless idiots in more dangerous circumstances. SOMEBODY has to
make the diving public aware of what is _really_ going on out
there.........
4)Several WKPP members ARE in the process of developing a new training
agency (Global Underwater Explorers) that will bypass all of the
dangerous practices that are characteristic of the current tech training
agencies.
Dawn
Patrick Norris
Dan Volker wrote in message <6in0hj$1lp8$1...@news.gate.net>...
>From what I have just experienced, I do not think George has been harsh
>enough with Mount or Gilliam. They have contributed to the deaths of too
>many divers, and they are creating an image in the general public's mind,
of
>diving as an "unsafe" sport----while the only thing that is really unsafe
is
>their teaching and training methods. It has to stop. We cannot let these
>fools keep killing people.
>Dan Volker
So where does one go to get proper certification? If none of the agencies
"Do It Right" and George is unwilling to set up a certification agency that
does, sounds like we should all just give up, since we are all destined to
be "Strokes."
Patrick
Patrick
Ken Sallot
>Then why don't you and George start up a new agency? Put up or shut up.
>C'mon, I have an open mind and respect the viewpoints of others (unlike
>George). If you are so goddamn sure you guys have all the answers then
>start a training program.
>Brian
The WKPP has had their own internal training program for over 10 years now.
Everyone who is on the team now has been trained through this program.
Also, JJ is in the middle of starting up a training agency to coincide with
the WKPP training philosophy. It should be up and running by insurance renewal
time.
Ken
WKPP
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ken Sallot
Offering scuba instruction from Openwater through Trimix
http://grove.ufl.edu/~ken/classes.html
spam...@condor.circa.ufl.edu is not my email address, instead
it's ken at condor dot circa dot ufl dot edu.
Dan Volker
Brian Nadwidny wrote in article <35501B66...@shaw.wave.ca>...
>Dan Volker wrote:
>>
>> Barney wrote an insult in article <354F4301...@home.com>...
>>(MORE SNIPS)
>> More importantly, what reason could you have for starting shit with me,
when
>> all I am doing is trying to prevent more deaths, and increase the quality
of
>> dive instruction----(snips)
>
>Then why don't you and George start up a new agency? Put up or shut up.
>
>C'mon, I have an open mind and respect the viewpoints of others (unlike
>George). If you are so goddamn sure you guys have all the answers then
>start a training program.
Brian
I've been pushing Jarrod Jablonski to give us an agency version of the WKPP,
Doing it Right style ever since the triple death tragedy in WPB, as has
George, Robert, Bill Mee and Errol. While I'm happy to give advice, I do
NOT want to be an instructor---its just not my avocation. And I can just
hear George now , with a slow learner....:-) It would NOt be a pretty
sight :-)
In south florida you DO have Errol of Technical diving systems---he is
still "branded" with the IANTD badge of disgrace, but don't worry, he
teaches pure Doing it Right" style diving, regardless of the stupidities Tom
Mount would have his "blindly following" instructors teach, or the personal
preference negligence many other Mount certified instructors are allowed to
promote. . Get a hold of Errol at er...@gate.net he is one of the best
instructors in America.
Hopefully, Jarrad will come through for you guys, and he will start up
Global Underwater Explorers ( GUE) in the next week-----I do not think he
feels he can tolerate his association with IANTD any longer---a sentiment I
have had expressed to me privately by a very large number of good IANTD
instructors, recently.
From talking to Jarrad, there will be MASSIVE differences between GUE and
the other "tech agencies". For one, it will always be small, which means it
will never be easy for people outside of Florida to get certified----they
will have to do classes here for some time---but hell, the diving is good
here anyway....Also, any instructor who teaches for GUE will have "sworn an
oath" to be willing to give his own life if necessary to save a student in
his charge----this is a "Categorical Imperative". If you are aware of
elements of the Doing it Right system, then you are also aware this will
mean the Buddy system will be brought in, stronger than you have ever seen
it before. And gear choices will never be personal preference again----there
is the right gear, and the wrong gear, for the dives we do. The instructors
will insist you have the "right" gear. You will learn tech skills in
shallow water, not in 300 feet. By the time you get as deep as 200 feet, you
will feel like you have been diving doubles with stages for 10 years. You
will spend more to be certified in GUE, and you will get FAR MORE in return.
There will not be 8 billion mini specialties---learning to tech or cave
dive, or recreational dive will be taught, with no stupid marketing gimmicks
loading snippits of info into 8 different levels of certs---there will be NO
buying your blackbelt, even though you paid your money---if you can't
perform, in this class, you don't get a c-card. Instructors who want in
will be trained, but only the "BEST OF THE BEST" will be accepted. Students
will ALWAYS report on exactly what happened in their classes, to the agency
itself---each student will be an informer---each student will help the
instructors toe the line. Many stufdents will be turned down---"Never Evers"
will NOT be allowed in any GUE class. Tech and cave students will have to
pass VO2 max tests to show cardiovascular fitness , and all will need to
prove they have no PFO or other medical condition which could put them or
their buddy at risk.
For many divers, GUE will NOT be a solution, because it will be for people
who are serious, and are ready to train hard, and have a great deal of
innate ability. This will in NO WAY solve the problem of IANTD and TDI,
because it can not help everyone on this NG or the world at large. But it
will help some, and that's the the best we can offer at this time. They will
put out more WKPP training videos, as a non-profit service, to help the
world's divers to get on the right track, and have a shot at better safety
even if they can not get to GUE. More will come. George, Bill Mee, Robert
and I are NOT in diving for teaching, and we are NOT in diving to clean up
the disasters caused by IANTD or TDI. We don't want more people killed, so
we are doing what we can. Sorry if this is not enough, but at least we are
serious, and we are trying.
One last thing about this George thread. Everybody out there that has a bad
opinion of George due to his treatment of "fellow Cave divers" or his
general language-----this gets directed at people who dive deep air, and do
stupid things which will put their lives, and those of others , in jeopardy.
This is particularly true of the Rob Palmer incident, mentioned in one post.
If anyone out there with this bad opinion, ever is unfortunate to have to
perform a recovery, of a beautiful girl, who was killed by the stupidity of
an instructor or an agency, which had already recieved countless warnings by
WKPP members like George---- about the catastrophic results of their
behavior--- if you find yourself in this position, you will first grow
horribly sad, then you will get mad. You will want to take action against
the men that took this life by their reckless disregard for it. You've
heard me say some unkind things about Tom Mount in the last few days. I've
met Tom, I've dove on boats with him, and each time I had ever talked to
him, I enjoyed his colorful interpretations of his place in the universe.
In the past, I did not mind giving him a small blast once in a while, but I
never had wanted to hurt him. Now I feel this has changed. As nice as the
guy is---as someone to talk to---I liked the guy---- his actions have been
responsible for too many deaths ( this is my interpretation----you make your
own) I can no longer sit back and say, awwhhh, Tom's a good guy, he didn't
mean it. When I saw this girl on the bottom, stretched out like she was--
still trying to work out her tables and adjust her bouyancy, her hair
flowing in the water like she was still full of life, I felt a kick to my
chest---a kick to my heart, like I could never feel in a kick boxing ring.
The air was almost knocked out of me. The pain, as it welled up, turned
rapidly to an anger. If this guy Derick, the instructor that watched her
sink and die, was on the boat with me when I had surfaced, I can guarantee
you I would be behind bars right now, since no power on earth would have
stopped me from breaking every bone in his pathetic and cowardly
body---slowly and painfully. And I feel Tom Mount is an accomplice to this
horrible act of cowardice, which took the life of this beautiful girl. Damn
him. God Damn him. I will not let him get away with this. And this
Dereck--the one directly responsible---he will be made to pay. And this CAN
NOT be allowed to happen again. And if anyone wonders why George gets so
nasty when talking about other divers he clasifies the way I do "Derek or
Tom" , you ought to be able to figure out why he will not sugar coat his
comments about them. George has experienced far more body recoveries than he
wants to remember ---most would have been impossible if people had heeded
his advice. These are shoes you would not want to walk in.
Dan Volker
www.sfdj.com
Nanci LeVake
"Patrick Norris" <nospamp...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Dan Volker wrote in message <6in0hj$1lp8$1...@news.gate.net>...
>>From what I have just experienced, I do not think George has been harsh
>>enough with Mount or Gilliam. They have contributed to the deaths of too
>>many divers, and they are creating an image in the general public's mind,
>of
>>diving as an "unsafe" sport----while the only thing that is really unsafe
>is
>>their teaching and training methods. It has to stop. We cannot let these
>>fools keep killing people.
>>Dan Volker
>So where does one go to get proper certification? If none of the agencies
>"Do It Right" and George is unwilling to set up a certification agency that
>does, sounds like we should all just give up, since we are all destined to
>be "Strokes."
>Patrick
It's not very hard to educate yourself if you want to. You can go to
Jeff Bentley's web page,
http://www.crl.com/%7Ejbentley/cave.html
find the link to the "Good Guys", and pick an instructor that isn't
going to kill you, or _worse_, do nothing as he watches you sink out
of sight.
The particular agency an instructor is associated with, (at least
until GUE gets off the ground) doesn't mean crap. You have to pick an
instructor that knows what the hell he's doing. Maybe now people will
get on the clue bus and figure out that no matter how many years
someone's been diving, and how alive they are today, they _still_ may
be promoting dangerous instructional and diving practices.
It isn't up to George Irvine to start some miracle agency. The market
is consumer-driven, and apparently what they're hearing is all the BS
crap that the "tech" agencies teach is what divers want to pay for.
Jammer Six
In article <01bd78eb$fc0251a0$550e2299@default>, "Scott"
<sco...@internetcdsremovethis.com> wrote:
€> I end up diving
€> alone a lot, or pairing up with marginal "buddies" quite often. And, for
€> the record, narcosis was not a factor, I limit my buddy dives to 60 fsw,
€> And, in case you haven't noticed, not a lot of OW divers know or practice
€> their hand signals
Wow.
They're right. They really are.
Don't dive with strokes.
Anyone who thinks narcosis isn't a factor because of an artificial depth
limit, or that a diver who doesn't understand basic hand signals is safe,
or without the moral courage and intestinal fortitude to refuse a marginal
partner doesn't value his own life.
If he doesn't value that, how can he value mine?
John Brett
On Wed, 06 May 1998 14:36:47 GMT, "Patrick Norris"
<nospamp...@adelphia.net> wrote:
<snip>
>So where does one go to get proper certification? If none of the agencies
>"Do It Right"
Look and learn on the 'net. You can learn a great deal by asking
questions.
> and George is unwilling to set up a certification agency that
>does,
Well, JJ's setting up the agency, but ...
> sounds like we should all just give up, since we are all destined to
>be "Strokes."
A Stroke is someone who doesn't listen. Keep asking questions, keep an
open mind, and keep thinking about what you're doing.
John Brett
Dan Volker
--
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote in article
<354F39...@clemson.edu>...
>
>all of which were deja vu, to me, many many times, written by you.
>
>But how does any of THAT relate to the Chuck Jones incident in question?
>I for one would very much like to hear George Irvine's rationale in his
>approach, why he posted what he did, and his complete absence of regret
>nor apology, in the Cozumel archeological expedition incident.
>
>I think I've posted MORE than I had intended to, and have covered ALL
>the POINTS I have to make, and have already used up more time than I can
>afford at this time.
>
>For others who want to follow-up on the Chuck Jones incident in the
>George Irvine thread and its relation/non-relation to DIVE SAFETY,
>please read my THREE postings on the subject, this morning, my replies
>to (1) Carlos Ricoarango, (2) John Brett, and(3) Dan Volker (here).
>Bob
Bob,
I called George to ask him about this.
According to George, one of the guys on this "team" in Mexico, you were
referring to, a Milhulan or something, is quite famous for leaving his dead
buddies in caves. Another member of the the "team" you are defending, is
known as the "transformer"--- the transformer is a hideous, snaggle toothed
transexual, well known in South florida as having among the worst grasp of
tech diving knowledge and skill sets in the entire strokedom of IANTD or
TDI's "worst of the worst", bunch..I have seen this thing on boats, and will
personally attest to how unsafe this thing is in the water, and I could find
a half dozen dive boat captains that would be happy to explain why they will
not let this dangerously bad diver on their boats. If it wanted to get on a
boat I was about to dive on, I and several others would tell the boat
captain we can't dive with this accident waiting to happen on the boat with
us---and that we would have to cancel .
George said that in Mexico, you pay if you want anything, and that this
team was shoestring budgeting it---this immediately would piss off the
Mexican officials who are used to the status quo being covered---and the
limp wristed countenances of several of these team members ( particularly
Milhulan---from the description I heard) would not go over well with the
Mexican, " macho", cultural system they had to exist within-----i.e., the
Mexicans did not like these guys& (gays), so they tossed them in Jail. And
George said that this Chuck Jones is another one of the officious,
swaggering IANTD wonders, hugely impressed with himself, and one who lives
to exert his "power over others".
The story goes, Chuck called George up, and says, " I understand you are
Lamar English's dive buddy----I need some parts for my light......George
says, no problem, I'm coming down soon, and I need to rent a house and some
tanks from you while I'm there----Chuck says, " Oh, I don't know, I'll have
to check you out". ( knowing full well George MUST be a good diver if he
cave dives with Lamar, but Chuck wanted to act like the big shot...)....
George says, " the only checking out you're going to do is... ( unrepeatable
message in this forumn) .
So that's the back ground. George does not like cave divers that leave dead
buddies in caves, and he does not like the transformer, and he does not like
officious weenies like Chuck Jones.
George did not make this post on rec.scuba, he made it in the much closer,
clublike environment of the tech list and cavers, where tones like this are
commonplace---even expected. You can not take a tech or cavers post and lay
it out in rec.scuba, with out losing the context of the environment the post
was created for.
And Bob, George is NOT running for president of the United States, or even
of IANTD, or any other training agency---he does not need to worry about
whether anyone likes or dislikes his comments----he does not need anybodies
support. The fact is, he is one of the best divers in the world, if not the
best, and he has been willing to help make diving safer by sharing his
knowledge. You really don't need to like him. Popularity is not an issue.
The issue is, trying to save lives, and George is trying to do this right
now. Do you really want to bog down the process of getting safer dive
proceedures, safer gear configurations, safer deco practices, and safer
diving in general, by gumming up the works with a campaign about why you
don't like Irvine??
Instead, why not think about better ways to get GOOD info out of George, and
avoid the ways you are certainly familiar with, that get insults and slams,
and just get in the way of information development.
Regards,
Dan Volker
Rick Dusch
If you'd pull your head out of your ass for a minute you could learn everything
you need
right on these lists, any of the WKPP team and a bunch of others will answer any
question you have if you just ask and listen, plus there's many web pages that
explain
proper gear and diving technique, but then it's probably just easier to criticize
and
keep on doing things the way you've always done......RD
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
Dan Volker wrote:
>
Dan, perhaps you thought I was already gone so that I cannot respond to
this piece of warmed over GARBAGE you're posting here.
I received a copy of this via email from you, and I thought it was
PRIVATE,
and so I replied to it already. Below is my PRIVATE reply, in FULL:
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 22:41:29 -0400
To: "Dan Volker" <d...@gate.net>
From: "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)" <rf...@CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geroge Irvine
Dan,
Thanks for this follow-up which I assume is PRIVATE. I am very busy
with many things I have to do before leaving for my trip 4 am Sat.,
so I can only be brief in my response here.
At 07:47 PM 5/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote in article
><354F39...@clemson.edu>...
>>
>>all of which were deja vu, to me, many many times, written by you.
>>
>>But how does any of THAT relate to the Chuck Jones incident in question?
>>I for one would very much like to hear George Irvine's rationale in his
>>approach, why he posted what he did, and his complete absence of regret
>>nor apology, in the Cozumel archeological expedition incident.
>Bob,
>I called George to ask him about this.
>According to George, one of the guys on this "team" in Mexico, you were
>referring to, a Milhulan or something, is quite famous for leaving his dead
>buddies in caves. Another member of the the "team" you are defending, is
>known as the "transformer"--- the transformer is a hideous, snaggle toothed
>transexual, well known in South florida as having among the worst grasp of
>tech diving knowledge and skill sets in the entire strokedom of IANTD or
>TDI's "worst of the worst", bunch..I have seen this thing on boats, and will
>personally attest to how unsafe this thing is in the water, and I could find
>a half dozen dive boat captains that would be happy to explain why they will
>not let this dangerously bad diver on their boats. If it wanted to get on a
>boat I was about to dive on, I and several others would tell the boat
>captain we can't dive with this accident waiting to happen on the boat with
>us---and that we would have to cancel .
Dan,
You are a "journalist" aren't you? At least in your role in the
Florida Tech Journal and your reports in rec.scuba. You should check
your FACTS more carefully.
The advisory was posted in Techdiver and the Caver's list. All you
had to do was to look up the archives and see that what George wrote
was COMPLETE GARBAGE -- what I called his "speculations". The
portion below is the EXACT TEXT (of the relevant portion).
> Just in case some of you do not know, I was arrested
>along with five (5) others on Sunday afternoon of the 16th of June
>and charged with the "SACKING"of a historical monument.
>The local government is charging that myself along with
>others have robbed valuable artifacts from the country
>of Mexico solely for monetary gain. They arrested all 6 of the
>members of the recovery team,including the Mex. official from
>INHA who is also the archeologist in charge of the San Gervasio
>ruin here on the island. They held us all in jail for 3 days and seized
>our automobiles and all equipment for diving,and that of the photographers
>and videographers who were there to document this great multi
>cultural rescue of Mayan history. Local press had been invited to
>cover the event.
> The truth is this:
>
> The recovery of artifacts from the Cenote Chuu Ha was
>under the supervision of an archaeologist of the federal
>agency INAH ( The National Institute of Anthropology and
>History). The project was arranged with all local and
>federal agencies notified. All of the problems that now exist
>are due primarily to squabbling between government agencies.
> There were six people involved in the recovery. There were
>two Americans,myself being one of them, one Canadian, and
>three Mexicans.
NOTE THAT NO NAME WAS MENTIONED OTHER THAN CHUCK himself.
George's fantasized Milhollen was NOT EVEN IN COZUMEL at the time!
Dave's name never came up in any of the reports!
I think this should have been sufficient for YOU to judge George's
credibility. Don't you think?
As a matter of fact, I had several private correspondences with
George about the incident. Why are YOU the spokesman for George
now? You're just passing warmed over LIES by George, because he
had NO FACTS (that's what I posted in rec.scuba).
> George said that in Mexico, you pay if you want anything, and that this
>team was shoestring budgeting it---this immediately would piss off the
>Mexican officials who are used to the status quo being covered---and the
>limp wristed countenances of several of these team members ( particularly
>Milhulan---from the description I heard) would not go over well with the
>Mexican, " macho", cultural system they had to exist within-----i.e., the
>Mexicans did not like these guys& (gays), so they tossed them in Jail. And
>George said that this Chuck Jones is another one of the officious,
>swaggering IANTD wonders, hugely impressed with himself, and one who lives
>to exert his "power over others".
Dan, that's complete BULL! YOU have NO FACTS. All you are doing
is repeating the SAME FANTASY George dream up, which had been PROVEN
false.
>The story goes, Chuck called George up, and says, " I understand you are
>Lamar English's dive buddy----I need some parts for my light......George
>says, no problem, I'm coming down soon, and I need to rent a house and some
>tanks from you while I'm there----Chuck says, " Oh, I don't know, I'll have
>to check you out". ( knowing full well George MUST be a good diver if he
>cave dives with Lamar, but Chuck wanted to act like the big shot...)....
>George says, " the only checking out you're going to do is... ( unrepeatable
>message in this forumn) .
This was what happened FIVE YEARS prior to the archeological incident.
This is what explained George's PETTINESS and that he was flaming
Chuck 5 years later because of this "light" indident. THAT WAS
5 years BEFORE teh Cozumel incident. Did you get that from George?
>So that's the back ground. George does not like cave divers that leave dead
>buddies in caves, and he does not like the transformer, and he does not like
>officious weenies like Chuck Jones.
And I don't like IGNORANT, OFFICIOUS, FACTLESS big mouths like George,
and now YOU, Dan, because you know NOTHING about the incident other
than the garbage George fed you, and you acted as if you knew something!
>George did not make this post on rec.scuba, he made it in the much closer,
>clublike environment of the tech list and cavers, where tones like this are
>commonplace---even expected. You can not take a tech or cavers post and lay
>it out in rec.scuba, with out losing the context of the environment the post
>was created for.
It's not the LANGUAGE, but the ACT and the FALSE speculations and
FALSE accusations that I object to, strongly then, and strongly now.
You don't seem to understand because you're so blinded by your own
close association with George.
>And Bob, George is NOT running for president of the United States, or even
>of IANTD, or any other training agency---he does not need to worry about
>whether anyone likes or dislikes his comments----he does not need anybodies
>support. The fact is, he is one of the best divers in the world, if not the
>best, and he has been willing to help make diving safer by sharing his
>knowledge. You really don't need to like him. Popularity is not an issue.
>The issue is, trying to save lives, and George is trying to do this right
>now. Do you really want to bog down the process of getting safer dive
>proceedures, safer gear configurations, safer deco practices, and safer
>diving in general, by gumming up the works with a campaign about why you
>don't like Irvine??
Dan, all of this is IRRELEVANT to the Chuck Jones incident.
Go back and RE-READ my three postings in rec.scuba. And re-read this.
>Instead, why not think about better ways to get GOOD info out of George, and
>avoid the ways you are certainly familiar with, that get insults and slams,
>and just get in the way of information development.
>Regards,
>Dan Volker
I recognize all the good info George has given and disseminated, and I
even indicated in my rec.scuba postings -- if you READ THEM CAREFULLY.
None of that EXCUSES George for the way he behaved in the Chuck Jones
case. He had NO FACTS. He acted senselessly and irresponsibily.
He showed no regrets. He made no apology when he was COMPLETELY
WRONG.
That's George's CHARACTER that I am talking about. It has NOTHING
to do with whatever he does in cave diving, or anything else.
I hope THIS reply enlighted YOU somewhat about what your friend George
is REALLY LIKE. Check HIS story against the posted advisory! You
can do that as a journalist, can't you?
-- Bob.
------------ end FULL text of my email response to Dan -------------
I don't need to add anything to the above in this PUBLIC response, which
is precisely the same as I had responded to Dan when I thought it was a
private email to me, other than telling Dan he SHOULD have kept it
private, which would have saved this from being public.
Now you have not only revealed further George's LACK of character, but
your OWN ignorance and lack of credibility, and shoddiness as one who
REPORTS lies and speculations as if they were facts, and you were TOO
LAZY to check the facts first!
This is the 4th and FINAL posting I have on this thread. Yes, I am not
gone YET, but I am not going to waste anymore time on something that I
have already thoroughly documented here (the Chuck Jones incident and
HOW it relates to George's character, and that what George does CANNOT,
simply, or simplistically, be written off as "for dive safety" sakes!
For the late-comers to this sub-thread on Chuck Jones, please read ALL
FOUR postings of mine, THREE yesterday morning, and this ONE today.
-- Bob.
-- Bob.
-- Bob.
-- Bob.
kmyoung
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote:
>Dan, that's complete BULL! YOU have NO FACTS. All you are doing
>is repeating the SAME FANTASY George dream up, which had been PROVEN
>false.
Reef,
I don't know anything about the incident in Cozumel other than the
references contained within this thread. Normally I wouldn't even see any of
DV's stuff because I killfiled him. But, you seem to be making sense, the
facts appear to back you up, and what you're saying is making sense. All the
more reason that I'm not surprised that DV keeps coming back for more. He's
got a real problem, and the only way that I can explain it, or the only way
that it makes any sense to me at all is to realize that for him, the ends
justify the means. Even if the 'means' is distorting facts, relying on
information supplied to him by someone else, playing to the audience as the
savior of all that is good, resorting to vilifying individuals because they
disagree in practice or theory with his (George's) practices/theories, etc
etc. I am not at all surprised by some of his comments that seem so
vindictive and accusatory, and he exhibits the true signs of a narcissist
and/or a megalomaniac. It sounds like he mirrors George, and I think that
the group or anyone interested should remember that not all is as it seems
here. Thank you for documenting this so well.
>None of that EXCUSES George for the way he behaved in the Chuck Jones
>case. He had NO FACTS. He acted senselessly and irresponsibily.
>He showed no regrets. He made no apology when he was COMPLETELY
>WRONG.
I am not surprised that DV has exhibited the same lack of honor. I had the
same experience with him a while back. Again, classic signs...
>Now you have not only revealed further George's LACK of character, but
>your OWN ignorance and lack of credibility, and shoddiness as one who
>REPORTS lies and speculations as if they were facts, and you were TOO
>LAZY to check the facts first!
Even confronted with this, I have no doubt that DV will obfuscate the facts
and take the opportunity to do some more preaching about the only 'proper'
method to dive.
>For the late-comers to this sub-thread on Chuck Jones, please read ALL
>FOUR postings of mine, THREE yesterday morning, and this ONE today.
I did. Thank you. If everyone does, then maybe they would understand that
not all is as it appears or has been represented to appear --- and you can
apply that to the 'Divers Supply' threads and other ego-driven attempts at
character assassination that have been launched from south Florida. Right or
wrong, guilty or innocent, nobody deserves to be publicly convicted even
before the dust has settled or all of the facts have been collected.
Especially in a public forum such as rec.scuba.
>-- Bob.
--
Regards,
Michael
*Auto-replies will (hopefully) bounce
mr success
Maybe I missed something along the way in this thread but some things
have been said that I just couldn't let lie.
First let me go on the record as saying I know none of these people
mentioned so I have no personal axe to grind one way or the other but
I feel I hear a philosofy comeing out that I have a problem with.
That is of blameing instructors for all these deaths and accidents.
First my credentials: padi divemaster(not full time), TDI advanced
nitrox certified, 500 + dives, and padi master rateing Hays county
sherrifs office rescue and recovery team Texas EMT II, age 49, 20
years diving. I list this ONLY to show some level of experiance not to
brag or show off credentials.
Obviously I have known great instructors and poor instructors over
the years but I have never met one in my life that was not concerned
about safety and trying to teach it the right way. Some did much
better than others obviously.
The bottom line is YOU DIVE YOUR OWN DIVE. Nature is terribly
unforgiving of idiocy. Often you can get away with being stupid,
sometimes you don't. If you choose to dive deep or aggressivly after
having been off two years ( a common occurance), if you choose to dive
without having your equipment serviced regularly, if you choose to
push the tables and get bent, if you choose to do a dive that you know
darn well your not prepared for and don't feel comfortable with, if
you choose to not monitor your preasure or depth or any of the other
stupid things that far to many people do. Then don't blame anyone but
yourself for your stupidity. If you die or are injured I'll read the
report and shake my head. If I find your body underwater I'm going to
feel sorry as I watch your loved ones cry hystericly. But I am going
to blame nobody but you. Not your instructor, not the shop that sold
you your equipment (generaly) but YOU. The dead person. You who chose
to do a dive and ignored all the principles you were taught. You who
decided to push the limits, You who were neglagent and got yourself
killed.
Maybe I have gotten a little hard over the years but having done
nearly 100 recoverys both in Texas and California I am tired of seeing
wives, parents etc standing on the shore hopeing for anything. In all
those years I have only seen two, yes 2, incidents that were caused by
equipment failure. Even then it was old junk equipment being used for
dives it was never designed for.
So in this day and age when it's so popular to blame others for our
own stpidity, just stop and think a minute. Get real with yourself.
Reckognise your personal limits and capeabilitys. Don't blame your
instructor, your boat driver, your divemaster, etc. Think about your
wife or parents standing on shore when I have to give them the news
that we found your body at 100 feet. Then plan your dive accordingly.
YOU are RESPONSIBLE for your own life and well being. So grow up and
act like it.
kmyoung
mr success wrote in message <3551342a....@news.texas.net>...
>Maybe I missed something along the way in this thread but some things
>have been said that I just couldn't let lie.
> So in this day and age when it's so popular to blame others for our
>own stpidity, just stop and think a minute. Get real with yourself.
>Reckognise your personal limits and capeabilitys. Don't blame your
>instructor, your boat driver, your divemaster, etc. Think about your
>wife or parents standing on shore when I have to give them the news
>that we found your body at 100 feet. Then plan your dive accordingly.
>YOU are RESPONSIBLE for your own life and well being. So grow up and
>act like it.
Very well put. Thanks for the information. Some of the crap we're hearing
almost sounds like advertisements for a certifying agency that doesn't even
exist yet.
John Brett
On Thu, 07 May 1998 04:41:57 GMT, fun_...@hotmail.com (mr success)
wrote:
>Maybe I missed something along the way in this thread but some things
>have been said that I just couldn't let lie.
I think you have missed something. Perhaps you should start by reading
up on the Pompano incident last week. Then, perhaps, the WPB incident
back in January.
>First let me go on the record as saying I know none of these people
>mentioned so I have no personal axe to grind one way or the other but
>I feel I hear a philosofy comeing out that I have a problem with.
>That is of blameing instructors for all these deaths and accidents.
There are two parts to this. The first, the unforgiveable, is the
deaths that have occurred *whilst the student has been under
instruction*. The second, less obvious, is the growing trend for
wannabe tech divers being taught techniques and equipment
configurations that will get them killed.
>First my credentials: padi divemaster(not full time), TDI advanced
>nitrox certified, 500 + dives, and padi master rateing Hays county
>sherrifs office rescue and recovery team Texas EMT II, age 49, 20
>years diving. I list this ONLY to show some level of experiance not to
>brag or show off credentials.
Yawn.
> Obviously I have known great instructors and poor instructors over
>the years but I have never met one in my life that was not concerned
>about safety and trying to teach it the right way. Some did much
>better than others obviously.
> The bottom line is YOU DIVE YOUR OWN DIVE.
<snip the rest of the diatribe>
There is one HUGE GLARING EXCEPTION to this - the student under
instruction. Almost by definition, the student is there to learn about
things they are not previously capable of doing - they're exceding
their limits. This applies as much to the tmx diver as the OW diver
doing their first dive.
You said:
>"instructors <snip> concerned about safety"
How does this fit with an instructor watching his student drift past
him without making any effort to save her?
John Brett
Jammer Six
€> That should have read "dont" know or practice their hand signals. I fucked
€> up. I end up paired with marginal divers as a favor to one of my buds, an
€> instructor. I have been guerrilla diving for 18 years, and most of my
€> initial training came from some USMC buds. The rest I got on my own. Right,
€> wrong, or in between, thats the truth. I aint dead, and I have never
€> (knocking rapidly on wood table) had anything that I would call an
€> emergency. And I do abort a fair number of dives, in the sake of safety.
€> The biggest reason I have not pursued dive training past AOW, is that I
€> have yet to find a group or agency that I can agree with. I get turned off
€> by most dive shop types almost immediately.
€>
€> Listen, I apologize for the attack I made, and will post a public apology.
€> You seem to make a lot of attacks on people based on little bits of
€> information. I attacked back. You dont know me, or my abilities, and trying
€> to say "dont dive with strokes" aint real bright either. There was a point
€> in time when you could have been called a stroke also. Lighten up a little,
€> and try to help the "strokes" learn. Maybe then there wont be so many bad
€> situations. You seem to be knowledgeable, but your delivery really sucks. I
€> aint sayin you have to kiss anyones ass, but you might try not being so
€> abrasive.
€>
€> Scott Koplin
Scott, your apology is as full of shit as your original series of posts were.
Anybody, and I do mean ANYbody, who has any "USMC buds" would recognize the
name in my .sig instantly. Furthermore, they would have no questions about
the term "Jammer Six". Failing to recognize Top Daley's name means you were
never in the Corps. Failing to recognize Jammer Six means you were never in
any of the other services, either.
Anybody who has been diving for 18 years and never had a situation "they
would call an emergency" is either diving in a pool, and a shallow one, at
that, or was hopelessly oblivious as emergencies occurred around them.
So. Let me make sure I understand everything you've communicated.
-You're not an ex-Marine, or a Veteran of any kind, but you wish you were.
-You've been diving for 18 years, and, in spite of diving with poorly
trained, unexperianced divers who don't understand hand signals or basic
gas management, you've never been in an emergency.
-You haven't had any training beyond AOW, but you're perfectly willing to
answer questions here on nitrox.
-You check your buddies guages because you can't trust your buddy enough to
communicate his gas situation to you.
-You show your buddy your guage, because you dive with people who never ask
you about your gas situation.
-You are sure that I was a stroke at one time, when you obliviously have no
clue what that term means.
-You don't like my "delivery".
-You have alledged buddies who are instructors, who are stump-dumb enough
to "invite" you to help with their class- in spite of the fact that you are
wholly unqualified to even be in the water, and in spite of what that does
to their liability.
Scott, Scott, Scott.
You know, if any THREE of these issues were present in one of my friends,
I'd trade him in on a dog, and shoot the dog.
You're full of shit, Scott.
There are at least three outright lies in your posts, not to mention your
amazing ability to answer questions on subjects that you have no knowledge
of.
And then, GENIOUS that you are, you post to a group in front of people who
DO know, and who ARE qualified to talk about these subjects.
The mind boggles.
Blow it out your ass, Scott.
If you don't like me, my delivery, or my posts, I take that as a
compliment, and am relieved and content.
Kuty
fun_...@hotmail.com (mr success) wrote:
>Maybe I missed something along the way in this thread
Yes you did!
>if you choose to do a dive that you know
>darn well your not prepared for and don't feel comfortable with, if
>you choose to not monitor your preasure or depth or any of the other
>stupid things that far to many people do. Then don't blame anyone but
>yourself for your stupidity.
That is true with one exception that you missed, and was the subject
of this thread!
>But I am going
>to blame nobody but you. Not your instructor, not the shop that sold
>you your equipment (generaly) but YOU. The dead person.
This thread was about someone who got killed on a dive which was a
course dive. The instructor was teaching trimix and his student died.
The other incident that was referred to (Andre Smith's and his
students' death) was also a course dive. The difference between those
two incidents was that Andre Smith had the decency to die with his
student, trying to save him. This one (Derreck) did not (according to
Dan's post and other posts here).
There is no excuse for an instructor whose student dies in a training
dive (with only very few exceptions that I won't go into). This is
what this thread is about IMO.
I agree that once someone is certified, and WAS GIVEN THE RIGHT TOOLS
TO MAKE A SENSIBLE JUDGEMENT, he is the only one who is responsible
for his actions.
Regards,
Kuty
Kuty
jo...@pixel.co.uk (John Brett) wrote:
>There are two parts to this. The first, the unforgiveable, is the
>deaths that have occurred *whilst the student has been under
>instruction*.
Well said (of course, when someone else thinks the same way I do, I
like it :-) )
>You said (Mr. success):
>>"instructors <snip> concerned about safety"
>How does this fit with an instructor watching his student drift past
>him without making any effort to save her?
I would even go further and say that even if he made SOME effort it
was not enough. An instructor should never come up without his
student. The poor soul trusted the instructor with her life. The
instructor should either save him or at least bring the body up, or
die trying to do it.
As I said in my previous post here: The instructor in the WPB
incident did the right thing. He died, trying to rescue his student.
In this case, the instructor did not have the decency to do it. He
even did not have an excuse of having more than one student
descending, in which case he would have been forced to decide which
one to chase!
Regards,
Kuty
Scott
I know exactly who Top Daly was, and I was right, you are an asshole.
See ya around.
Barney
Carlos Ricoarango wrote:
> Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote:
> >
> > Carlos Ricoarango <cuba...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> > Message-ID: <6il2a9$5...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
> >
> > >In a recent issue of Deep Tech, fully on quater of the magazine
> > >was dedicated to what an asshole and dangerous man George is.
> >
> > I hate to get into this, especially when I won't be around to
> > follow-up as I'll be spending all but 3 days of the next 6 weeks
> > diving in the Caribbean. But I am compelled to respond to Carlos'
> > post, for reasons you'll see.
> >
> > Carlos, you are quite wrong in calling the articles there "an
> > unfair character assasination" of George.
> >
> > I thought Bret Gilliam did an excellent job documenting George's
> > character by amply quoting what George posted in the Caver's list.
> > Those passenges mirror George Irvine's character perfectly even
> > without any commentary. Bret's article can be seen in full in
> >
> > http://www.tdiusa.com/articles/fear.html
> >
> > One passage in Bret's article on George's behavior in the tragic
> > death of another caver, Rob Palmer, reminded me of a less tragic
> > incident (in which I played the role of a messager to the Caver
> > community, though I was/am neither a techdiver nor a caver) and
> > George acted EXACTLY the same, senseless way. This was what
> > Bret wrote about George regarding Rob's death,
> >
> > >Because the news was already on the Internet and several pompous
> > >self-righteous morons couldn't wait to be the first to sound off with an
> > >opinion. Never mind that they had no facts or any sensitivity for his
> > >widow. But they couldn't wait to log on and flame away. One of the first
> > >was George Irvine who took the opportunity to call Rob a "dumb fuck"
> > >who deserved to die.
> >
> > In June 1996, my friend Chuck Jones sent me an advisory concerning the
> > unjust arrest and jailing (including Chuck himself, as the result of
> > some dirty politics in Mexico) of a team of six divers in the recovery
> > of artifacts from the Cenote Chuu Ha under the supervision of an
> > archaeologist of the federal agency INAH (The National Institute of
> > Anthropology and History).
> >
> > Since I subscribe to neither Techdiver nor the Caver's list, I asked
> > Carl Heinzl to post for me, on behalf of Chuck Jones, his piece of
> > advisory, to those lists.
> >
> > George Irvine had NO FACTS whatsoever, but wasted no time to post this:
> >
> > >Subject: Re: Message from Chuck Jones - Cozumel
> > >To: Carl Heinzl <c...@martigny.ai.mit.edu>, tech...@terra.net
> > >Cc: cav...@geek.com
> > >
> > > Carl, tell this worthless asshole to get the proper permits before he goes
> > >pillaging sites that are sacred to Mayans. This guy is a clown, and he needs to
> > >be in jail along with the bonesmuggelers he dives with. Did he have the
> > >Transformer with him on this trip, or just Diver Dave, Leave 'Em Dead In The
> > >Cave, Millhollin?
> > >
> > > Mexico is a very easy place to do things if you do them right, a concept
> > >that is totally foreign to guys like Jones. I'd like to see them just go ahead
> > >and shoot this parasite, rather than take up jail space.
> > >
> > > Jones is a hugely officious weenie who would not spend five cents to do
> > >what it takes to satisfy the Mexican officials. He is donw there strutting
> > >around like the godfather of cave diving in the worst weenieland of them all
> >
> > Of course George was proven within a week that he was TOTALLY wrong
> > about his speculations, but it struck me as "odd" at the time, to
> > put it mildly, that one caver could treat other "fellow' cavers' plight
> > the way George Irvine did it, with complete prejudice and ignorance and
> > utter disregard of fair play and human decency.
> >
> > That was promptly followed by George's follow-up to my reply:
> >
> > Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:16:44 -0700
> > From: "G. M. I. III" <gmi...@interserv.com>
> > Subject: Re: 2nd Message from Chuck Jones
> >
> > The fact is that you are "clueless" . We could care less if this
> > parasite got
> > jailed - he needs it. He probably liked it , too. I know his pal Diver
> > Dave
> > would, and the Transfromer probably didn't want to leave.
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Jun 96, Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
> > <RF...@CLEMSON.EDU>
> > wrote:
> > >I was the one who forwarded the news about Chuck Jones for Carl Heinzl
> > >to post for me on the Caver's List and Techdiver.
> > >
> > >I was quite disturbed by the fact that instead of giving their fellow
> > >cavers MORAL SUPPORT (if nothing else) in their difficult times, two
> > >readers on these lists IMMEDIATELY FLAMED Chuck BEFORE any facts were
> > >known to them about the case other than what was posted (and certainly
> > >NOT the guilt or innocence of the 6 divers charged). I had privately
> > >told Carl that those posters were CLUELESS about Mexican Law or politics
> > >nor cenote diving in Cozumel, and told Carl WHY! But I wanted to wait
> > >till I hear from Chuck himself before posting.
> > >
> > >I just received this GOOD NEWS from Chuck Jones:
> > >
> > >> Date: 26 Jun 96 15:32:17 EDT
> > >>
> > >> Bob,
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for your support.
> > >>
> > >> We are all free now and all charges are dropped. We have been
> > >> offiicially cleared of any wrongdoing or intent Our gear and cars have
> > >> been released back to us and we are checking for damage.
> > >>
> > >> I will give you more details soon,
> > >>
> > >> Chuck
> > >
> > >I'll continue to update you on this case.
> > >
> > >Remember folks, Chuck's original message was to WARN fellow divers (in
> > >his "W Y A" (Watch Your Ass) advice that
> > >
> > >in Mexican Law, if charged, you are GUILTY UNTIL proven INNOCENT.
> > >
> > >In Western Law, if charged, you are INNOCENT UNTIL proven GUILTY.
> > >
> > >If was supreme irony that the two posters (you know who they are!)
> > >declared Chuck GUILTY, speculated on WHY, flamed Chuck based on their
> > >speculations, BEFORE they had any FACTS for their unsubstantiated opinion!
> > >And they are in the United States, and cavers! Sheesh!
> > >
> > >Chuck Jones et al HAVE PROVEN (according to Mexican Law) their INNOCENCE!
> > >*************************************************************************
> > >
> > >-- Bob.
> > >--
> > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `tech...@terra.net'.
> > >Send subscription/archive requests to `techdive...@terra.net'.
> >
> > What did George Irvine have to say about "shooting Chuck" and all
> > his false speculations (not getting permits, etc.) that had been
> > proven false? He said they STILL should have shot Chuck!
> >
> > What was it that gave George such animosity toward Chuck? I verified
> > it (independently from George and Chuck) that about 5 years before,
> > Chuck had injudiciously asked George to show his C-card (when G wanted
> > to rent some cave equipment in Cozumel, and Chuck didn't know George
> > was God at the time).
> >
> > Before then, I had more or less overlooked George Irvine's antics as
> > a way of getting attention to get his message across, regarding
> > cave-diving techniques, of which he is clearly knowledgeable. I've
> > been around NGs and lists long enough to know how to cut through the
> > noise to extract whatever bits of some signals.
> >
> > But the Chuck Jones incident left no doubt whatsoever in my mind about
> > the PETTINESS of George Irvine, his complete LACK of sense of MORALITY
> > and FAIR PLAY, and his low-level mentality as a human being. My
> > assessment of George Irvine's character coincided with that of Bret
> > Gilliam, expressed in his Deep Tech article.
> >
> > Carlos Ricoarango, get your sympathy from the WKPP group and take your
> > whining about how George has been unfairly treated back to the CAVER'S
> > list.
> >
> > -- Bob.
> I was reading your post with intrest until the end where you suggest
> I was "whining". I have very little use for verbal attacks.
> The purpose of the post, and still is, is the opportunity of equal
> response particularly after such attack
>
> RICO
--
Barnacle Barney
Life is a tragedy for those who feel
and a comedy for those who think
'Chinese fortune cookie'
MelCzar
I just don't understand something about this, how is it that all of these
people are dying and at risk at depth, but the people searching for them are
fine? Are the rescuers using different techniques? Is it just that they are
more experienced? Who is training the rescuers? My condolences to the family
and friends of "Jane". She was found at 245' (I think that was what someone
said). Who found her? Why were they safe at that depth and she was dead?
Just wondering...
Melissa
"Why be politically correct, when you can be right!"
Nanci LeVake
fun_...@hotmail.com (mr success) wrote:
>Maybe I missed something along the way in this thread
(Mr. Hotmail's crap snipped)
Yeah, you did. Jane Ornstein, student, trusted Derek McNulty,
instructor, with her life. He DID NOTHING to prevent her death. It
seems very obvious to me that, as an instructor, if you begin a dive
with a student, you bring the student back from that dive, end of
story. When Jane assessed the risks she would undertake to begin this
training, I'm sure she never in her wildest imagination believed an
instructor would stand by and watch her die.
Nanci
Art Greenberg
In article <199805071345...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
mel...@aol.com (MelCzar) wrote:
Divers are at risk at depth only if they choose to dive with the
objective of overcoming risk. Such things as diving deep on air
and taking along the entire dive shop strapped to your body are
behaviors that assume risk is there to be conquered.
The divers who performed this recovery dive with a completely
different attitude, one where the risk is minimized by being fit,
selecting the right equipment, properly configuring that equipment
and using the proper gasses. They include some of the most experienced
and successful extreme divers on the planet. George Irvine is one of a
very few who have been 15,000 feet back at 285 feet deep in a Florida
cave - that dive includes nearly 3 hours of bottom time (time at max
depth) and another 11 or so hours of decompression. He and the team
he works with make dives like that look like a walk in the park.
Information on the why and how of their methods is and has been
publicly available on-line. Do a DejaNews search in the rec.scuba.*
heirarchy using the keywords "Hogarthian" or "WKPP", that should
get you started. You may also wish to check the "techdiver" and
"cavers" mailing list archives at http://www.aquanaut.com.
Remove <nospam.> to reply:
Art Greenberg
nospa...@eclipse.net
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Rich Gibson
Rick,
I am curious about your post, and (really) about some of the attitudes of
George's fans.
I totally agree that killing divers through bad training is _very_ bad,
but the reality is that it is difficult to get past the 'fuck you all if
you don't know what I know' attitude of some of the WKPP community.
I totally appreciate Dan Volker's posts, and positions, and with that
said, I used to like them more when the ratio of invective to criticism
was tilted more towards the reasoned response.
Brett Gilliam writes well, and has done many things that a lot of us
(don't even!) dream about. His articles are designed to include and involve
his readers vicariously in the excitement of his experiences. These
articles create a bond between Brett and his readers.
People who feel that sort of bond are not going to be convinced that he
is wrong by bad manners of the sort exhibited by callng people names.
Rick Dusch (rdu...@erols.com) wrote:
: If you'd pull your head out of your ass for a minute...
Art Greenberg
In article <drahcirrE...@netcom.com>
drah...@netcom.com (Rich Gibson) wrote:
> Rick,
>
> I am curious about your post, and (really) about some of the attitudes of
> George's fans.
>
> I totally agree that killing divers through bad training is _very_ bad,
> but the reality is that it is difficult to get past the 'fuck you all if
> you don't know what I know' attitude of some of the WKPP community.
Rich,
I'm not a "fan" of George, I'm not in the WKPP and in no way will I ever
be qualified to even so some of the dives the team's support divers do
on a regular basis. However, I have learned a lot about diving from members
of the team. Even from George, who has patiently and politely answered
each question I have asked him. Virtually everything the WKPP has learned
through hard work and yes, in some cases trial and error, is available
to anyone who is interested.
It's not "fuck you if you don't know what I/we know". It's more like
"fuck you if you refuse to learn from my/our experience".
Nikki Taylor
Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> wrote in article
<jammer-ya02408000...@news.oz.net>...
> Scott, your apology is as full of shit as your original series of posts
were.
At least he was man enough to try and apologize. Cant say that for you. I
met Scott two weeks ago, and did my 6th thru 10th dives with him. When we
met, he was diving alone and surfaced to get some tools from his car, as
there was a wolf eel trapped in a stupid tank that someone threw into the
ocean. He asked us for help to hold the tank while he made a hole large
enough to stick his arm in and free the eel. Later, he loaned us a couple
of his dive lights, without even knowing our names. He is a knowledgeable
diver, and a true gentleman, more than can be said for you. I learned a lot
from diving with him, mostly just to be more confident. I dont know about
his service except to say that he has a large tatoo on his arm that says
"Fuck Communism." Only a marine would do that. Also, the seals he intoduced
me to last weekend didnt have any questions about his being a veteran or
not. They hugged and greeted him warmly. You sir, are a jerk. This is the
first and last post I will make to this newsgroup. The crowd here has just
a little too much testosterone flying around.
What I dont understand is why so many of you have to be so abusive. Its
really quite sad, and you should be ashamed.
Scubagator
>It's not "fuck you if you don't know what I/we know". It's more >like
>"fuck you if you refuse to learn from my/our experience".
George has had to clean up the messes that others have made lately...wouldn't
that piss _you_ off? He has a proven method of safe, extreme diving, has
offered his point of view to others with methods that have proven unsafe
compared to his. This is someone who can "walk the walk AND talk the talk".
None of the other agencies can say they have safety records, or records for
that matter that hold up to what has been done by the WKPP divers.
Yeah, he may come off as an asshole sometimes, but I guess after showing folks
a good way of doing things, having them get hurt and die doing it wrong way,
you get a bit pissed off.
Just my .02
SMC
John Brett
On 7 May 1998 13:45:27 GMT, mel...@aol.com (MelCzar) wrote:
>I just don't understand something about this, how is it that all of these
>people are dying and at risk at depth, but the people searching for them are
>fine?
The searchers were members of the WKPP.
> Are the rescuers using different techniques?
Yes, they are "Doing It Right" (tm)
> Is it just that they are more experienced?
That too.
> Who is training the rescuers?
Jarrod Jablonski &co
> My condolences to the family nd friends of "Jane". She was found at 245' (I think that was what someone
>said). Who found her?
George Irvine.
> Why were they safe at that depth and she was dead?
Still waiting on an autopsy. Probably toxed and/or drowned. Jane got
into difficulties at 40', and drifted down out of control. Depth (i.e.
the 240' in which her body was found) was not a primary factor in her
death.
John Brett
Mike Gray
Scubagator wrote:
>
> Yeah, he may come off as an asshole sometimes, but I guess after showing folks
> a good way of doing things, having them get hurt and die doing it wrong way,
> you get a bit pissed off.
I think DV is a bit off the deep end this time.
My IANTD training involved several dives noodling around at shallow
depths learning to manage too many tanks and a dozen regulators and
practicing deco from not much deeper than my armpits, something that
apparently was done neither in the WPB incident nor in the Pompano
incident. WKKP has some good ideas (standardization of equipment, e.g.)
but:
1) The vilification of IANTD is coming from a group that is in the
process of starting up a competing training agency, and
2) No agency, not even GUE, can control what its instructors actually
teach once they have the teaching credential.
Rogue instructors generally get caught in the major agencies before they
can do much damage. They will always be a problem in the smaller, and
especially in the tech, agencies and I am convinced that both of the
local incidents were instructor, not agency, errors.
Having been roundly flamed for my deep air, I find it ironic that we
have four recent deaths that were at least in part caused by loading up
a person with two tanks of each size made, a bushel of regulators, dry
suit, coms, and a partridge in a pear tree and taking off to see what
trimix is like at 240.
regards
m
Dan Volker
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote in article
>Dan Volker wrote:
>>
>Dan, perhaps you thought I was already gone so that I cannot respond to
>this piece of warmed over GARBAGE you're posting here.
>
>I received a copy of this via email from you, and I thought it was
>PRIVATE,
>and so I replied to it already. Below is my PRIVATE reply, in FULL:
>
>Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 22:41:29 -0400
>To: "Dan Volker" <d...@gate.net>
>From: "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)" <rf...@CLEMSON.EDU>
>
Bob,
Didn't you ask me to find out from George why he posted what he did??? Just
cause you don't like his answers, is no reason to shoot the messenger :-)
Well, the incident is not of any importance to me at this time, and has
nothing to do with dive safety, which is what most of us have been talking
about. I have more reason to trust George than you, since I have never met
you. I do know that George and you have had some flame wars, where you took
the painful end of the deal. Could this be an agenda---maybe George is not
the only one who holds petty grudges :-) And what's wrong with holding
grudges, anyway ? ;-)
>As a matter of fact, I had several private correspondences with
>George about the incident. Why are YOU the spokesman for George
>now? You're just passing warmed over LIES by George, because he
>had NO FACTS (that's what I posted in rec.scuba).
C'mon Bob, you wanted to know what George had to say about something, and I
was courteous enough to your wishes to go out of my way to answer you---and
I assure you, I'm at least as busy as you are. George does not post to
rec.scuba. You wanted to hear why, I asked, he told, you don't like the
answer......would you like a machine gun???
>
>
>
>> George said that in Mexico, you pay if you want anything, and that this
>>team was shoestring budgeting it---this immediately would piss off the
>>Mexican officials who are used to the status quo being covered---and the
>>limp wristed countenances of several of these team members ( particularly
>>Milhulan---from the description I heard) would not go over well with the
>>Mexican, " macho", cultural system they had to exist within-----i.e.,
the
>>Mexicans did not like these guys&-i.e (gays), so they tossed them in Jail.
And
>>George said that this Chuck Jones is another one of the officious,
>>swaggering IANTD wonders, hugely impressed with himself, and one who
lives
>>to exert his "power over others".
>
>Dan, that's complete BULL! YOU have NO FACTS. All you are doing
>is repeating the SAME FANTASY George dream up, which had been PROVEN
>false.
All I said I would do was ask George. If you want to go and research who
each team member was, and prove who was involved, go ahead. Its not a dive
issue, and I don't know any of the people involved----well, I have been on
boats that allowed the snagle toothed thing on, but if it was involved, I'd
have bet money it liked the idea of close quarters behind bars :-)
>>The story goes, Chuck called George up, and says, " I understand you are
>>Lamar English's dive buddy----I need some parts for my light......George
>>says, no problem, I'm coming down soon, and I need to rent a house and
some
>>tanks from you while I'm there----Chuck says, " Oh, I don't know, I'll
have
>>to check you out". ( knowing full well George MUST be a good diver if he
>>cave dives with Lamar, but Chuck wanted to act like the big shot...)....
>>George says, " the only checking out you're going to do is...
unrepeatable
>>message in this forumn) .
>
>This was what happened FIVE YEARS prior to the archeological incident.
>This is what explained George's PETTINESS and that he was flaming
>Chuck 5 years later because of this "light" indident. THAT WAS
>5 years BEFORE teh Cozumel incident. Did you get that from George?
Yes. Obviously. And how long has it been since George pissed you off with
the thread with the unkind e-mail name change for you ???
>
>>So that's the back ground. George does not like cave divers that leave
dead
>>buddies in caves, and he does not like the transformer, and he does not
like
>>officious weenies like Chuck Jones.
>
>
>
>>George did not make this post on rec.scuba, he made it in the much closer,
>>clublike environment of the tech list and cavers, where tones like this
are
>>commonplace---even expected. You can not take a tech or cavers post and
lay
>>it out in rec.scuba, with out losing the context of the environment the
post
>>was created for.
>
>It's not the LANGUAGE, but the ACT and the FALSE speculations and
>FALSE accusations that I object to, strongly then, and strongly now.
>You don't seem to understand because you're so blinded by your own
>close association with George.
>
What George had to say about some diver he did not like, a long time ago, is
not very important to me. I'm kind of shocked its so important to you, as
it has NOTHING to do with the present subjects.
>
>>And Bob, George is NOT running for president of the United States, or even
>>of IANTD, or any other training agency---he does not need to worry about
>>whether anyone likes or dislikes his comments----he does not need
anybodies
>>support. The fact is, he is one of the best divers in the world, if not
the
>>best, and he has been willing to help make diving safer by sharing his
>>knowledge. You really don't need to like him. Popularity is not an issue.
>>The issue is, trying to save lives, and George is trying to do this right
>>now. Do you really want to bog down the process of getting safer dive
>>proceedures, safer gear configurations, safer deco practices, and safer
>>diving in general, by gumming up the works with a campaign about why you
>>don't like Irvine??
>
>Dan, all of this is IRRELEVANT to the Chuck Jones incident.
Bob, the Chuck Jones incident is one of the most irrelevant topics this NG
has covered in the last 3 months---certainly the most irrelevant one I can
remember you posting about. If I did not have respect for your previous
posts on other topics, I would not have bothered to respond to this. How
about getting back to issues which most NG readers will benefit from. Even
if you want to make a post about the fake Barney, just about anything would
be more worthwhile than this incident.
Regards,
Dan
Jammer Six
In article <01bd79de$b7dc2340$e8152299@default>, "Nikki Taylor"
<nik...@msn.com> wrote:
€> Also, the seals he intoduced me to last weekend
€> didnt have any questions about his
€> being a veteran or
€> not. They hugged and greeted him warmly. You sir, are a jerk. This is the
€> first and last post I will make to this newsgroup. The crowd here has just
€> a little too much testosterone flying around.
€> What I dont understand is why so many of you have to be so abusive. Its
€> really quite sad, and you should be ashamed.
That's what I like about this newsgroup, as I've said before.
Everyone is an Ex-Seal, a Marine, or from Rambo's old unit.
Gee, why do you suppose I stopped believing them? Because there's more of
them here than ever served in any of those groups, maybe?
I'm not ashamed of anything.
Scott is a liar, a fool, and will post answers to questions he knows
nothing about.
Since you're willing to believe him, and follow him and his pet seals, the
fact that this was your last post here is a wise decision, and I commend
you for it.
When you get enough experiance to ask some of the questions that
mel...@aol.com is asking now, get on the web and look up "Bentley",
"Hogarthian", and "WKPP".
Until then, don't feed the seals, it makes them beg, and maintain your
silence here.
Jammer Six
€> He is a knowledgeable
€> diver, and a true gentleman, more than can be said for you.
Yup, he sure is, Nikki.
Here's his latest addition to our knowledge base:
€> Thanks, asshole, you swallowed just like the three dollar whore you are.
€> Your most recent rant won me a 10 dollar bet. I bet you were stupid enough
€> to swallow it all, but I didn't think you would take the pole and reel!
€> Best of all, it showed you for what you are, a ball-less bully. FTR, I
€> never once said anything about trimix diving, nor did I answer any post in
€> anyway concerned with the technical aspects of trimix diving. My diving
€> interests are recreational, not macho self aggrandizement. My concern was
€> with the death of the lady. But, hell, dont let me confuse you with the
€> facts, you are doing just fine in your own little world. Fuck you, fuck
€> your mother, kiss my ass! I wonder what this DD214 I have is? BTW, you are
€> the very definition of a stroke, fuckface. I dont have the need to prove
€> shit to you or anyone else. But, just for grins, Contact Ed Davenport, SEAL
€> Team 4, Little Creek Virginia. He is my cousin, and if you have any doubts,
€> he will be glad help set your stupid ass straight. My guess is that you
€> will do as always, and cower behind your keyboard. You are a piece of work.
€> No, belay that, a piece of shit. How dare YOU take a ride on Sgt. Daly!?!?
€> Putting it in your sig doesn't show me anything but what an egomaniacal,
€> little dick, cocksucker you are. But you showed that just fine all by
€> yourself. Thanks again!
He's an idiot.
Veterans call people like him "wannabes".
He's contradicting himself again, and he's lying again, and even his
swearing isn't very effective.
Next time you see him, tell him I thanked him for the compliment, the three
dollar whores get the extra dollar because they're the good looking ones.
Have fun. We'll be here.
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
Dan Volker wrote:
> Bob,
> Didn't you ask me to find out from George why he posted what he did??? Just
> cause you don't like his answers, is no reason to shoot the messenger :-)
Dan,
This is OFF the sub-thread of Chuck Jones in respond to this. I'll
make this ONE reply to YOUR continued obfuscation of MY discussion of
George Irvine's CHARACTER, prompted by Carlo's post who complained
that George was the subject of "character assination" by Bret Gilliam.
Dan, this reply is TO you, ABOUT you, and nothing but YOU.
To begin with, I didn't ask YOU to find out anything from George.
Since you were obfuscating about the CHARACTER issue in your follow-up
to my reply to John Brett, I was simply making a commentary that
George Irvine has NO EXPLANATION for his inexcusable act in the Chuck
Jones incident. I already heard what I called "garbage" (in what
you posted about what George said) from George himself. Why would I
need YOU as a messenger?
You were a self-appointed messenger, and I simply pointed out that
as such and as a REPORTER, you had no facts, and you were irresponsible
to relay what you heard as if they were factually true! That is
called YELLOW JOURNALISM, whichever way you may want to disguise or
obfuscate about it, Dan.
> Well, the incident is not of any importance to me at this time, and has
> nothing to do with dive safety, which is what most of us have been talking
> about.
Now you're finally HALF AWAKE. You're right. The Chuck Jones issue
had NOTHING to do with dive safety, and that was precisely MY POINT.
It had to do with George Irvine's LACK of character! And no one can
write it off as (or make EXCUSE for George) that it had something to
do with "dive safety".
Dan, you POST too much. You THINK too little. You have a one-track
mind about your own agenda.
You, Dan, simply cannot RECOGNIZE an issue, or FOCUS on an issue, as
I had pointed out in POSTING (3) in the series of four postings I made
about the Chuck Jones incident and the Irvine-character issue.
> I do know that George and you have had some flame wars, where you took
> the painful end of the deal.
WRONG again, Dan. It was a short flame war, the ONLY ONE I EVER had
with George, provoked by his senseless response to the Chuck Jones
Advisory. It's in the Techdiver archives. It was thoroughly exposed
HERE in this thread. George was COMPLETELY defenseless. His vulgar
language, his pre-occupation with his own sexual perversions, and his
completely wrong speculations did not win him any admirer except in
the minds of those who share his mentality. I've seen at least TWO of
them in this thread.
> Could this be an agenda---maybe George is not
> the only one who holds petty grudges :-) And what's wrong with holding
> grudges, anyway ? ;-)
Those smileys get you nowhere, Dan. I don't deal with George Irvine.
Why should I have a grudge againts him? I simply DISPISE his
CHARACTER,
based on his actions in the Chuck Jones incident. No more. No less.
Dan, I don't deal with YOU either. But based on the George Irvine
thread here alone, you've gone a LONG WAY in establishing yourself as
a meddler, in matters which had nothing to do with YOU, and matters
in which you're COMPLETELY IGNORANT, yet you want to use it as a
vehicle to voice YOUR OWN AGENDA, which have nothing to do with the
topic/issue of MY discussion.
You have lost much credibility in my mind (which I am sure you don't
care), but I believe you have lost much credibility in the minds of
many INTELLIGENT READERS who read this newsgroup.
> C'mon Bob, you wanted to know what George had to say about something, and I
> was courteous enough to your wishes to go out of my way to answer you---and
> I assure you, I'm at least as busy as you are.
I've already responded to this earlier. You were a self-appointed
messager/meddler in a topic in which you knew NOTHING.
> George does not post to
> rec.scuba. You wanted to hear why, I asked, he told, you don't like the
> answer......would you like a machine gun???
Very limp excuse for George. He could have had YOU post his reply for
him if he had ANYTHING of SUBSTANCE (other than his vulgar vocabulary
and sexual fantasies) to say about his role in the Chuck Jones incident.
> >Dan, that's complete BULL! YOU have NO FACTS. All you are doing
> >is repeating the SAME FANTASY George dream up, which had been PROVEN
> >false.
>
> All I said I would do was ask George. If you want to go and research who
> each team member was, and prove who was involved, go ahead. Its not a dive
> issue, and I don't know any of the people involved----well, I have been on
> boats that allowed the snagle toothed thing on, but if it was involved, I'd
> have bet money it liked the idea of close quarters behind bars :-)
Dan, you're sounding more and more like George now, but that's not
adding an iota of SUBSTANCE to you postings here, is it? I find it
rather interesting that SOME people in the WKPP camp always resort to
some impertinent and irrelevant sexual innuendos when words and logic
fail.
Yes, I could EASILY find out, from Chuck Jones NOW, who all six members
of the team were. But that was irrelevant to the ISSUE. All it
mattered was that they were members of a legitimate archeological
recovery team, and that NONE of the characters GEORGE IRVINE dreamed
up in his SEXUAL FANTASIES, and apparently YOURS too, were members
of the team, as George speculated, alleged, and acted upon it as if
it were fact!
Comprendo, my little self-proclaimed "reporter", "journalist",
with a little mind for comprehension of ISSUES?
> >>The story goes, Chuck called George up, and says, " I understand you are
> >>Lamar English's dive buddy----I need some parts for my light......George
> >>says, no problem, I'm coming down soon, and I need to rent a house and
> some
> >>tanks from you while I'm there----Chuck says, " Oh, I don't know, I'll
> have
> >>to check you out". ( knowing full well George MUST be a good diver if he
> >>cave dives with Lamar, but Chuck wanted to act like the big shot...)....
I think that incident speaks FOR Chuck. How does he know George is not
a "stroke" (in the language YOU can understand) just because he tags
along with Lamar English? Why SHOULDN'T he check George out first?
That could go into the discussion of a RESPONSIBLE dive instructor,
operator. The fact that George called Chuck an officious weenie for
doing the RIGHT THING doesn't make it right for George!
> >>George says, " the only checking out you're going to do is...
> unrepeatable
> >>message in this forumn) .
George had never been accused of having a small ego, and this example
serves as a good one for his pettiness!
> >This was what happened FIVE YEARS prior to the archeological incident.
> >This is what explained George's PETTINESS and that he was flaming
> >Chuck 5 years later because of this "light" indident. THAT WAS
> >5 years BEFORE teh Cozumel incident. Did you get that from George?
>
> Yes. Obviously. And how long has it been since George pissed you off with
> the thread with the unkind e-mail name change for you ???
June 1996. That's less than two years ago. He simply SHATTERED the
"benefit of the doubt" I had given him till that time, as I had already
posted in the series of postings here, and had PROVEN to me his LACK of
character -- which brings us back to the TOPIC of MY sub-thread in
which I responded to Carlo's post. To remind you, Dan, it was my
response to Carlo's accusation of "chararcter assination" by Bret
Gilliam. NOTICE the number of times I've used the KEYWORD "character"
there (That is POSTING (1) of mine in the Chuck Jones incident series):
> Carlos Ricoarango <cuba...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> Message-ID: <6il2a9$5...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
>
> >In a recent issue of Deep Tech, fully on quater of the magazine
> >was dedicated to what an asshole and dangerous man George is.
> Carlos, you are quite wrong in calling the articles there "an
> unfair character assasination" of George.
>
> I thought Bret Gilliam did an excellent job documenting George's
> character by amply quoting what George posted in the Caver's list.
> Those passenges mirror George Irvine's character perfectly even
> without any commentary. Bret's article can be seen in full in
>
> http://www.tdiusa.com/articles/fear.html
> What George had to say about some diver he did not like, a long time ago, is
> not very important to me. I'm kind of shocked its so important to you, as
> it has NOTHING to do with the present subjects.
That is because YOU don't seem to have a grasp of the meaning of MORAL
CHARACTER, RESPONSIBLE and ACCOUNTABLE acts, and all that goes with
what I call "decency" in a human being.
It's NOT about George's diving skill, Dan. It's NOT about what other
cavers do or don't so in their instruction, victim recovery, or other
technical diving issues.
It's about the CHARACTER in a MAN. Yes, it is important to me, as
IMHO, it SHOULD be important to EVERYONE. It is your perrogative if
you choose to ignore it, but don't try to come here and tell ME what
I should or shouldn't discuss simply because it's low on YOUR priority.
> Bob, the Chuck Jones incident is one of the most irrelevant topics this NG
> has covered in the last 3 months---certainly the most irrelevant one I can
> remember you posting about.
See the preceding paragraph.
Dan, I have even LESS time to respond to anything else. You had YOUR
say.
You have my reply. Anything I post further about YOU or your stance
about George will not add anything I have already said here, and in
the series of posting on the Chuck Jones incident sub-thread.
Dan, read THIS until you comprehend what I said. And read THIS again,
if want to further obfuscate. In the Chuck Jones incident thread, it
took THREE postings to clarify that some points made by John Brett and
you (specifically, about "dive safety") were impertinent to the issue
of George Irvine's CHARACTER, as exhibited in the Chuck Jones incident.
For YOU, there is nothing further to clarify or add beyond this ONE
reply.
Save Diving to all,
-- Bob.
John Brett
On Thu, 07 May 1998 16:10:20 -0400, Mike Gray
<omg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<snip>
>My IANTD training involved several dives noodling around at shallow
>depths learning to manage too many tanks and a dozen regulators and
<snip>
Good & bad instructors ... Like you, I have no problems with the IANTD
instructors I've trained with.
>1) The vilification of IANTD is coming from a group that is in the
>process of starting up a competing training agency, and
*Because* of their dissatisfaction of IANTD. Neither the WKPP nor JJ
actually need to start GUE in order to keep doing what they've been
doing for years. The WKPP already has internal training.
>2) No agency, not even GUE, can control what its instructors actually
>teach once they have the teaching credential.
There are procedures available to minimise this. There's the BOD, QA
procedures, student feedback &c.
>Rogue instructors generally get caught in the major agencies before they
>can do much damage. They will always be a problem in the smaller, and
>especially in the tech, agencies and I am convinced that both of the
>local incidents were instructor, not agency, errors.
There's no disagreement that it was the instructors, in both cases,
who screwed up. What Dan is hammering Tom Mount about (and therefore
IANTD), is their lack of effectiveness in spotting and pulling the bad
instructors.
It isn't easy to do, but that's the price of managing a large company.
Robert Carmichael made a general complaint to Tom about a number of
IANTD instructors, including Derek, straight after WPB. Nothing was
done.
>Having been roundly flamed for my deep air, I find it ironic that we
>have four recent deaths that were at least in part caused by loading up
>a person with two tanks of each size made, a bushel of regulators, dry
>suit, coms, and a partridge in a pear tree and taking off to see what
>trimix is like at 240.
There's a right and a wrong way of doing everything. Some people don't
yet understand that "more kit" does not equate to "safer".
With regard to your comment about deep air, you do have a point:
Deep air = bad
WPB = much, much worse. Andre Smith suddenly enemy #1
Pompano = worse still. much, much worse. Now, Andre is being held up
as a hero in comparison :-7
Deep air's still dumb, 'though :-)
>regards
>m
John Brett
Mike Zimmerman
In article <6irs4c$p29$1...@news.netvision.net.il>, Kuty <ku...@nite.org.il> wrote:
>fun_...@hotmail.com (mr success) wrote:
>There is no excuse for an instructor whose student dies in a training
>dive (with only very few exceptions that I won't go into).
Agreed.
>This is what this thread is about IMO.
Perhaps.
>I agree that once someone is certified, and WAS GIVEN THE RIGHT TOOLS
>TO MAKE A SENSIBLE JUDGEMENT, he is the only one who is responsible
>for his actions.
Here I beg to differ. The OW1 case is perhaps the most troubling,
but frankly after OW1 I think the student bears a great deal
of responsibility as well. It is the student that truly knows
what their abilities and limitations are. A student should never (IMO)
do a "trust me" dive, letting an instructor load them up with unfamiliar
gear and take them to significantly deeper depths, all in one fell swoop.
This is no different than a "trust me" cave dive which everyone
fully preaches against. For a course like mix, IMO the instructor
is (sbould be IMO) there, yes partially as a safety factor, but moreso as
someone to oversee that you have learned and are demonstrating the skills
you learned in the classroom portion.
To put it another way, I'll be damned if I would sign up for a mix
course that wanted me to use all kinds of new gear, upping my task
loading, and thought I should then do a significantly challenging
dive with that unfamiliar gear.
When I started cave I did not waltz in, buy doubles and go caving,
I did 20-30 quarry and ocean dives with them until they presented
negligible additional task loading, and ONLY then was I ready to
use them for the cave course. I also will have no problem seeking
out a mix course where there is a "wussy" dive to only ~100-140fsw,
I've been there plenty on air, never been to 200, no need to combine
a new breathing gas AND a new depth all in one dive. But its up
to ME to do the research and find the instructor who won't ram-rod me
thru. Hell I'm young, I've got plenty of time to learn this stuff,
even if it isn't all in one weekend.
Even in instruction (at least past OW1), IMO, if you have to go so far
as to emphasize that the student "trusted" the instructor, then something
is wrong. That sounds like a dive that pushed too far.
Sorry, these mob lynchings always get so one-sided and leave a bad
taste. I'm making no defense for the instructor here, just arguing
philosophically and generally for personal responsibility.
Regards,
Mike
--
Mike Zimmerman < zim...@aur.alcatel.com > Alcatel Network Sytems, Ral, NC
*My opinions, not Alcatel's* [\] NC Diving: http://users.vnet.com/scuba/
A is A. Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it.
Nikki Taylor
Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> wrote in article
<jammer-ya02408000...@news.oz.net>...
Wow, your stupidity has no bottom. Scott didn't post that, you did. He sent
it to you privately to keep this nastiness out of the NG. But, nastiness
seems to be your trade mark. When I see Scott next, I will give him a big
hug and a kiss, and the only discussion we will have concerning you is what
a jerk your are. Grow up. My Dad is a Vietnam veteran, a marine, and my
older brother is a reservist with the marines. Neither have any idea what
your net name is supposed to mean. Are they liars and "wannabees" too? You
must be a very sad, lonely little man. Please dont reply to me, no one
needs to be subjected to any more of your abuse.
Nikki
Ken Sallot
In article <35525B...@clemson.edu> "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)" <RF...@clemson.edu> writes:
<All useless and babbling bullshit snipped>
Oops there's nothing left.
Yawn,
Ken
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ken Sallot
Offering scuba instruction from Openwater through Trimix
http://grove.ufl.edu/~ken/classes.html
spam...@condor.circa.ufl.edu is not my email address, instead
it's ken at condor dot circa dot ufl dot edu.
Ken Sallot
In article <ZJr41.400$0A3.1...@news.itd.umich.edu> "Larry \"Harris\" Taylor, Ph.D." <l...@umich.edu> writes:
> I am just addressing a syntax point here ... and, incidentally, I too,
>have wondered about the supposed population of ex-SEAL, SF, etc claimed
>within the US recreational community ... of course, when you see a lot of
>these wannabes dive, you know they were not a SEAL ...'cause a real SEAL
>would long ago have nailed their ass and their tongue to a tree(g)
>Although I am from the academic community, it is my understanding that the
>term SEAL, when referring to a US Military unit should always be
>all-capitalized ... as a gesture of earned (and extreme) respect.
>, IMHO, a SEAL has earned the right to the name ... a seal is a pretender!
>-
>"Harris"
>Larry "Harris" Taylor, Ph.D.
>Scuba Instructor, U of MI
>l...@umich.edu
SEAL is also capitolized because it's an acronym, sort of like NASA. I think
it stands for "Sea Earth Air and Land", meaning the environments the SEALs can
kick butt in, but I may be wrong. However, I'm sure there at least 1,000
ex-SEAL's reading this newsgroup that can correct me (those of you that truly
are ex-SEAL's please take no offense, I'm referring to the pot bellied, pizza
stained "Doria" shirt wearing, "ex-SEAL's" that we so often find on dive boats
and in dive shops).
Nikki Taylor
Barney <Curr...@Home.com> wrote in article
<3552fcd1...@news.concentric.net>...
> In message <01bd79de$b7dc2340$e8152299@default>, Nikki Taylor, graced
Barney,
Thank you for your kind reply. I really dont have the energy to wade
through all the nonsense that some of the "men" here are posting, I prefer
to keep good thoughts and happy things in my life. Of all the stuff written
here, about 5% is actually useful or decent. I can do without all the
negativity.
Jammer Six has got a serious problem of some kind. I find it amazing that
all of you put up with his bullying. His attacks on Scott are nothing less
the acts of an overweight six year old. The men I met were indeed seals. My
father is a Vietnam veteran, and he knows these people personally. Its
really a very small world that you veterans share. I dont believe anyones
veteran status is subject to Jammer Six's approval. I think he is scary,
and I hope I never meet him, or have to dive with someone of his stature.
Scott doesn't claim to know everything, one of the first statements he made
to me. When we were diving, the visibility was awful, and he tied us
together with a piece of rope, for my comfort. He freely loaned his
equipment to others in need, and no one had to ask! He was able to see when
people were having problems, and offer help. Diving with him was fun, and I
will dive with him again soon. Thats another thing he said to me, "Diving
is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. If you dont feel comfortable, or you
are cold, or any little thing is bothering you, abort the dive. Some of
these guys are very macho, and will dive under any circumstances. Dont
think that you are obligated to dive at any time for any reason, except to
enjoy it and have fun. When it stops being fun, get out of the water." My
instructor and he traded some words when Scott came out of the water alone.
At first, he looked kind of scarey, he is a big man, with big arms and
tatoos, but he had a big, bright smile. After my Open Water class, I
offered to be his buddy, and I am glad I did. I made a good friend.
You seem like a very nice, intelligent man. Who is this other Barney? Is he
a little kid? He and Jammer Six should be buddies! Thanks again for your
kind words. I will lurk, occasionally, but this place makes me kind of
nervous. So I am getting out of the water.
Happy diving,
Nikki
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper) wrote:
Sorry! The posting was sent before I had completed the list and text.
Here's the amended version, with the omitted addenda.
> I didn't realize that this thread about George Irvine's CHARACTER, or
> I should say the LACK thereof, is turning into a parade of WKPP
> luminaries and wannabees.
>
> In reverse order of appearance:
Actually in approximate appear in DejaNews, ordered by suitable
titles and categories.
> Former Cave-list Owner, Most Educated and Polite-in-Language in
> the WKPP camp:
>
> Ken Sallot wrote:
> >
> > <All useless and babbling bullshit snipped>
>
> Journalist, Reporter, and Altarboy of the WKPP Church and boneyard:
Dan Volker wrote a-plenty about his Church experience, but
somehow never understood the terms "moral" and "character", wrote:
> the "transformer"--- the transformer is a hideous, snaggle
> toothed transexual
> I have been on boats that allowed the snagle toothed thing on
> Language and Specialty Cert Instructor for George Irvine:
>
> Jeff Bentley wrote:
> >
> > What does Brett Gilliams dick taste like?
Apparent WKPP foot soldiers and George Irvine worshippers, fluent
with the use of the Official Anatomical Language of that camp,
> "Scott" <sco...@internetcdsremovethis.com> says to Jammer,
> >
> > I know exactly who Top Daly was, and I was right, you are an
> asshole.
>
> Rick Dusch <rdu...@erols.com> says to Brian Nadwidny,
> >
> > If you'd pull your head out of your ass for a minute you could
> > learn everything <...> any of the WKPP team <...>
>
> Promising WKPP Wanabee -- solid opinion without facts,
>
> Carlos Ricoarango <cuba...@worldnet.att.net> wrote,
> >
> > I am relatively new to this ng as well as diving <...> As an
> > infrequent reader of this journal and not personaly knowing
> > Mr. Irvine <...> I thought, what an unfair character assasination
> > of someone <...> what a shity first impresion of a magazine.
Gentlemen, I was posting about George Irvine's LACK of moral character,
as evidenced by the Chuck Jones incident, which no one could write off
as George Irvine's noble motive of promoting "dive safety", because
dive safety was NEVER a matter at issue in that incident.
In the course of your defence of George on this issue of MORAL and
CHARACTER, each of you have in fact showed some absence thereof.
Yes, gentlemen. I have learned much about dive safety and morals from
your postings (evidenced by the above clips) about certain parts of the
human anatomy; some sexual acts and preferences to which I have not been
properly educated; and above all, what your views of what SCUBA diving
is all about.
Thank you, thank you very much.
I apologize for any omission of worthy luminaries, foot soldiers and
WKPP wannabees in the above listing. In less than 24 hours, I'll
already be in the Caribbean. I simply did not have the time to do
a more thorough research of your contributions in the past few days.
I wish you all again,
Safe Diving,
-- Bob.
Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)
I didn't realize that this thread about George Irvine's CHARACTER, or
I should say the LACK thereof, is turning into a parade of WKPP
luminaries and wannabees.
In reverse order of appearance:
Former Cave-list Owner, Most Educated and Polite-in-Language in
the WKPP camp:
Ken Sallot wrote:
>
> <All useless and babbling bullshit snipped>
Journalist, Reporter, and Altarboy of the WKPP Church and boneyard:
Language and Specialty Cert Instructor for George Irvine:
Jeff Bentley wrote:
>
> What does Brett Gilliams dick taste like?
Jammer Six
In article <355321...@clemson.edu>, "Reef Fish (Large Nassau Grouper)"
<RF...@clemson.edu> wrote:
€> Apparent WKPP foot soldiers and George Irvine worshippers, fluent
€> with the use of the Official Anatomical Language of that camp,
€>
€> > "Scott" <sco...@internetcdsremovethis.com> says to Jammer,
€> > >
€> > > I know exactly who Top Daly was, and I was right, you are an
€> > asshole.
Actually, no.
Scott is nowhere near qualified to dive with WKPP.
He epitomizes what WKPP fights, he is a Stroke, and would not be allowed
"in the gate" in Florida.
Jammer Six
In article <01bd7a86$db592220$1e0e2299@default>, "Nikki Taylor"
<nik...@msn.com> wrote:
€> Scott doesn't claim to know everything, one of the first statements he made
€> to me.
This is your mistake, Nikki.
Scott does indeed claim knowledge he doesn't have, and it is the reason for
my "attacks".
He'll answer questions that he doesn't have the training to answer, which
doesn't really bother me, but he answers questions with information that is
wrong, and that does.
If you don't believe me, ask him yourself what standard nitrox is.
€> I will lurk, occasionally, but this place makes me kind of
€> nervous. So I am getting out of the water.
Yes, you've said that before. Now, forgive me, but I don't believe you.
I don't care what you believe, Nikki. If you want to believe that Scott is
an ex-SEAL, who knows all about diving and nitrox, be my guest.
When it's my life, though, I look for people with real knowledge, and real
experiance.
Scott has neither.
Jammer Six
In article <01bd7a82$81027140$1e0e2299@default>, "Nikki Taylor"
<nik...@msn.com> wrote:
€> My Dad is a Vietnam veteran, a marine, and my
€> older brother is a reservist with the marines. Neither have any idea what
€> your net name is supposed to mean.
OK, Nikki, I'm wrong.
Maybe Marines wouldn't know. (Seems to be the common denominator between
the ones who don't...)
I wasn't a Marine.
€> Please dont reply to me, no one needs to be subjected to any more of
your abuse.
There IS a way to insure this, I'm sure you'll figure out what it is,
eventually. I thought you had it there, a couple of times.
Give Scotty a peck for me, too, kid. Now go away. Come back when you reach
Divemaster, bearing coffee.
Mike Gray
John Brett wrote:
>
> There's no disagreement that it was the instructors, in both cases,
> who screwed up. What Dan is hammering Tom Mount about (and therefore
> IANTD), is their lack of effectiveness in spotting and pulling the bad
> instructors.
Okely dokely, that may be the problem but it is pretty obscure in the
rhetoric..
> It isn't easy to do, but that's the price of managing a large company.
Disagree. A large company should have, and dedicate, the resources
necessary to keep a short leash on its instructors.
> Robert Carmichael made a general complaint to Tom about a number of
> IANTD instructors, including Derek, straight after WPB. Nothing was
> done.
If true, then Mount does have some explaining to do.
> Deep air's still dumb, 'though :-)
Everyone to his own taste, as the farmer said when he kissed the cow. I
don't do trimix mainly because I just don't like the gear overload.
But maybe the BIG problem here is, how do you control the instructors??
regards
m
Don Mason
You will have to explain this to me.First of all cows are ugly as hell and
they smell.
Why does doing a dive on mix create gear overload(task loading) vice a dive
on deep air??
Norm Morin
--
> SEAL is also capitolized because it's an acronym, sort of like NASA. I
think
> it stands for "Sea Earth Air and Land", meaning the environments the
SEALs can
> kick butt in
I'm a French Canadian, we're better known as FROGs :o). Something to do
with eating frog legs I think, but we are reputed to have webbed toes ( I
missed out on those dang it!). Canadian FROG's generally kick beer drinking
butt in any beer drinking environment.
regards,
Norm Morin
mmd_n...@evansville.net
On Sat, 09 May 1998 04:37:22 GMT, "Norm Morin" <xl2...@cyberbeach.net>
wrote:
>
>--
>
>
>> SEAL is also capitolized because it's an acronym, sort of like NASA. I
>think
>> it stands for "Sea Earth Air and Land", meaning the environments the
>SEALs can
>> kick butt in
Norm I know you didn't write this, but whoever did this is wrong.
SEAL stands for SE(A) A(air) L(and).
Rick Williams
WebMaster ScubaCentral.COM
http://scubacentral.com
Kuty
On 8 May 1998 12:22:32 GMT, zim...@aur.alcatel.com (Mike Zimmerman)
wrote:
(CUT the part that we agree on :-) )
>
>Here I beg to differ. The OW1 case is perhaps the most troubling,
>but frankly after OW1 I think the student bears a great deal
>of responsibility as well.
First, I have to say that I would put the significant "marker" after
AOW and not after OW1. I come from a system that used to train divers
to a much higher level than OW1 before it certified them to dive with
their equals (The Israeli Diving Federation). I agree that when a
diver gets the tools to assess the risk, he/she bears responsibility
too.
> It is the student that truly knows
>what their abilities and limitations are. A student should never (IMO)
>do a "trust me" dive, letting an instructor load them up with unfamiliar
>gear and take them to significantly deeper depths, all in one fell swoop.
I just think that when you go from regular dives to more complicated
dives like mixes, the instructor becomes responsible again. Even a
seasoned AOW diver can't imagine the new situation and therefore has
to trust his/her instructor. Not in a blind way but still, when
someone does the first trimix dive, he/she can't imagine what it will
be like.
> For a course like mix, IMO the instructor
>is (sbould be IMO) there, yes partially as a safety factor, but moreso as
>someone to oversee that you have learned and are demonstrating the skills
>you learned in the classroom portion.
There are two problems with this idea. The first one is how much
responsibility is on a buddy in an emergency. I myself think that the
buddy system (especially in complicated dives) is a fundamental
requirement. The instructor, in this case, was A BUDDY, first of all.
According to the reports he did not act like one. Then of course
there was the fact that it wasn't JUST a buddy, it was the instructor
of the course. He did take his student to her first trimix dive. I
would have expected him to do everything, AND I MEAN EVERYTHING, to
save her.
>To put it another way, I'll be damned if I would sign up for a mix
>course that wanted me to use all kinds of new gear, upping my task
>loading, and thought I should then do a significantly challenging
>dive with that unfamiliar gear.
O.k. That means that you think about advanced training as learning
something from a more experienced diver, not as being nursed by an
instructor. I think the same way but I know that not all divers do so
and therefore INSTRUCTORS are fully responsible to the lives of their
trainees on instructional dives! Any instructor who doesn't like the
responsibility should not be in the business.
>Sorry, these mob lynchings always get so one-sided and leave a bad
>taste. I'm making no defense for the instructor here, just arguing
>philosophically and generally for personal responsibility.
I really don't feel that I joined the mob lynching here. I just think
that if the reports are correct and the student signaled to the
instructor (her buddy) that she was out of her stage gas, and he
signaled her to ascend to the next stop, but stayed at the deeper
depth, and if he watched her sinking without trying very hard to help
her, two things should happen:
1. He should never be allowed to teach scuba (any aspect of it)
anymore.
2. No one should ever dive with him as a buddy. The buddy system
demands some kind of commitment. If one wants to be a part of it, one
MUST act like a responsible one.
Regards,
Kuty
Mike Gray
Don Mason wrote:
>
> You will have to explain this to me.First of all cows are ugly as hell and
> they smell.
> Why does doing a dive on mix create gear overload(task loading) vice a dive
> on deep air??
Deep air is done with a much simpler kit. Is this a trick question?
regards
m
Mike Zimmerman
In article <35544518...@news.netvision.net.il>,
Kuty <ku...@nite.org.il> wrote:
>> For a course like mix, IMO the instructor
>>is (sbould be IMO) there, yes partially as a safety factor, but moreso as
>>someone to oversee that you have learned and are demonstrating the skills
>>you learned in the classroom portion.
>
>There are two problems with this idea. The first one is how much
>responsibility is on a buddy in an emergency. I myself think that the
>buddy system (especially in complicated dives) is a fundamental
>requirement. The instructor, in this case, was A BUDDY, first of all.
>According to the reports he did not act like one. Then of course
>there was the fact that it wasn't JUST a buddy, it was the instructor
>of the course.
Ok, as you note below I guess (especially at this point), I don't
look at an instructor on the dive as MORE than a buddy (although
I know they may pull some, er, um, suprises on me, I guess it is
to say I want to rely on them as NO MORE THAN a buddy). To me
that seems prudent.
>O.k. That means that you think about advanced training as learning
>something from a more experienced diver, not as being nursed by an
>instructor.
Correct, I don't believe in nursing..
> Any instructor who doesn't like the
>responsibility should not be in the business.
Disagree there, I think someone could be a very excellent instructor
without accepting students that need nurse-maiding... but a minor point.
>I really don't feel that I joined the mob lynching here.
I didn't mean to imply so much that you did, that part was as much
replying to the whole topic in general.
Scott
Hey, dickhead. I never ONCE claimed to be an ex SEAL. Go back and read the
thread. As per your well known style, you go off half cocked, with wrong
info, and illustrate your insect like stupidity. Do you recall USMC
somewhere? I said the two of the guys at Hoodsport N' Dive were SEAL's.
Chris was with SEAL team 5, Curt was a SEAL instructor ( I dont give their
last names, if you need "proof" call or stop in or shut the fuck up). Ron
Ault is one of the few alive of the original's of Experimental Diving Unit
1. Unit 1, the first one. Every single one of you that breathes a breath of
Nitrox or ever dives trimix owes this man a great deal of thanks. He is one
of the people that the Navy bent, bloodied and bruised to get the knowledge
that people use to dive safely today. He has been to 325 on air, 1075 feet
on heliox. There is a plaque awarded him by the Navy hanging on the wall of
his shop, for all to see. BTW, Lyle, you aint as popular as you like to
think. Some people know exactly who and what you are. The rest of us are
learning. Nikki and I both got lots of e-mail concerning you and your habit
of bullying the ladies that post here. I wish I could get face to face with
you, I would hang your ass from the hat rack. You handled Nikki pretty
good, tough guy. Showed us all what a real man you are. Oh, and I know you
said ANYONE who has EVER served knows WTF "Jammer Six" is supposed to mean.
WRONG AGAIN. I have put it to over 20 vets in the last few days, and they
all kinda got the same idea I did, that you have some sort of weird
fixation on your six o'clock. Oh, and I changed my mind. I got a mailbox
full, mostly from ladies, telling me how you bullied them also. They urged
me not to stop posting. Nitrox 1 is (depending on whose designation system
you use, some call it EAN I) 32% 02. Now, go hump someone else's leg,
dickhead.
Best Regards,
Scott
Jammer Six
In article <01bd7ce0$bf0a8c60$2c152299@default>, "Scott"
<sco...@internetcdsremovethis.com> wrote:
€> Hey, dickhead. I never ONCE claimed to be an ex SEAL.
€> thread. As pe
€> info, and illustra
€> somewher
€> Chris was with SE
€> last names, if you ne
€> Ault is on
€> 1. Unit 1, the fir
€> Nitro
€> of th
€> that peop
€> on heli
€> his sho
€> thin
€> learnin
€> of bull
€> you, I w
€> goo
€> sai
€> W
€> all ki
€> fixatio
€> ful
€> m
€> yo
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know, you're all SEALs, and you all have the Medal.
Just like every dive boat I've been on.
I'm glad it impresses Nikki.
I'd like to join the folks urging you to continue posting, you're the most
entertaining, completely idiotic, wannabe we've had since that idiot B52
was here.
You don't get any of this, do you? You don't understand why this is
happening, and you don't understand its signifigance, do you?
You may wish to confine you efforts to impressing 25 year old girls. You
seem to have a knack for that.
John Brett
On Fri, 08 May 1998 17:04:02 -0400, Mike Gray
<omg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<snip>
>Okely dokely, that may be the problem but it is pretty obscure in the
>rhetoric..
Well, there's an art to reading techdiver & cavers.
>> It isn't easy to do, but that's the price of managing a large company.
>
>Disagree. A large company should have, and dedicate, the resources
>necessary to keep a short leash on its instructors.
Disagree that it isn't easy to do, or that its the price of ...?
The issue of student questionaires was specifically raised (PADI does
this, so why doesn't IANTD). Tom Mount is currently taking the
position that he cannot discuss anything to do with the Pompano
fatality - presumably there is litigation in progress.
OTOH, even the recreational agencies have difficulties maintaining
standards in the best resorts. Maybe there's something about the warm,
clear waters that makes instructors skip standards.
>> Robert Carmichael made a general complaint to Tom about a number of
>> IANTD instructors, including Derek, straight after WPB. Nothing was
>> done.
>
>If true, then Mount does have some explaining to do.
But is saying nothing (see above). I guess we'll have to wait until
after the lawyers have been through it to find out what's going to
change (if anything).
>> Deep air's still dumb, 'though :-)
>
>Everyone to his own taste, as the farmer said when he kissed the cow. I
>don't do trimix mainly because I just don't like the gear overload.
So are you a 200+fsw on a single Al-80 kinda guy, or a twinset + stage
to 165 deep air head? I.e. just how much more gear do you think you
need in order to use trimix safely?
>But maybe the BIG problem here is, how do you control the instructors??
Dan's pet solution at the moment is to send standards questionaires to
all the students after certification. Maybe some will lie, cover up
for bad instructors, or throw the questionaire in the bin, but the
threat of discovery should help check the standards skipping.
John Brett
Scott
Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> wrote in article
<jammer-ya02408000...@news.oz.net>...
> You may wish to confine you efforts to impressing 25 year old girls. You
> seem to have a knack for that.
Er, ah, that should read "your" efforts. And yes, I do impress 25 year old
ladies, and I really enjoy their company, whereas you only bully them. Why
is that Lyle? Why do you pick on young ladies? Jealousy? When I told the
pet SEAL's about you, their advice was "Dont give him the time of day." Its
16:09 here. Oh, you will be proud to know, we are going to call our dive
club "The Pet SEAL's." Thanks, its a great name! Kinda sings!
Rambo say's he still loves you, BTW, maybe you should call.
Scott
--
Here ya go:
webmaster@localhost
abuse@localhost
postmaster@localhost
u...@ftc.gov
Chairman Reed Hundt: rhu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner James Quello: jqu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner Susan Ness: sn...@fcc.gov
Commissioner Rachelle Chong: rch...@fcc.gov
Jammer Six
In article <01bd7d32$be8a1880$270a3fd1@pkoplin>, "Scott"
<sco...@REMOVEinternetcds.com> wrote:
€> Oh, you will be proud to know, we are going to call our dive
€> club "The Pet SEAL's." Thanks, its a great name! Kinda sings!
Yup, it's a good one.
Glad you like it.
There was a stupid movie out a couple years ago called Navy Seals, or some
such shit.
Their ad had some guy yelling "Navy SEALS! Huaahhh!" in it.
My Old Lady ran around the house for two weeks yelling "Baby SEALS! Huaahhh!".
The fucking Navy gets all the press...
Dave Roberts
John Brett wrote:
>
> Dan's pet solution at the moment is to send standards questionaires to
> all the students after certification. Maybe some will lie, cover up
> for bad instructors, or throw the questionaire in the bin, but the
> threat of discovery should help check the standards skipping.
Questionaires are good, but I think the students should send them
back to the training agency involved. If you have to give them
back to the instructor at the end of the course, some people may
feel a little intimidated, and not be completely truthful.
Sending away to an anonymous person in the post should make it
easier.
- Dave.
--
Dave Roberts Swap the @'s and .'s, remove blanks to reply:-
dave @ roberts . saaconsultants @ com
Mike Gray
John Brett wrote:
>
> Dan's pet solution at the moment is to send standards questionaires to
> all the students after certification. Maybe some will lie, cover up
> for bad instructors, or throw the questionaire in the bin, but the
> threat of discovery should help check the standards skipping.
Problem with this is that a newly cert'd diver is a pretty poor judge of
the course. ("Did your instructor do x for y minutes at z feet?" "I
think so, but I was concentrating on the barracuda.")
Maybe the answer is to have pro level divers anonymously take entry
level classes to spot check. An instructor that knows that any student
could be a plant from the agency would really pay atention.
regards
m
Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu
Regarding "George Irvine", jmj...@ms3.hinet.net wrote:
>
>Judging the course? Well, yes, you could tick off a list of exercises
>that were required & performed,
I do exactly that in my OW courses - no student goes on the checkout
dive without first signing a document that describes the confined
water skills that were performed and what dates they were done, plus
an "informed consent" type of document that states that they
understand the risks involved.
>biggest question to answer tho' is-Do you feel confidant and have
>you mastered the skills required for this level? ( not , did you do
>it -once ?)
Furthermore, no student of mine gets a C-card until they sign a
document stating that they DO, in fact, "feel competent to engage in
open water diving activities without direct leadership supervision".
If they are not willing to sign their name to that statement, then I
am not willing to give them a card.
>Anonymous spot checks, tho', there's no way instructors would stand for
>that . It's called spying. People dislike it.
I would stand for it. I do a quality job, teach to the standards of
my agency, and have nothing to hide. If that's what it takes to clean
up the industry, then I am willing to go along.
>Random spot checks might be better. Inspector rings up, asks when the
>next class is & says I'm gonna be there to have a look at what's going
>on.'
Not nearly as effective as the "blind" checks - I'd bet the almost
anybody could "suck it up" enough to do a creditable job for one class
or pool session. It's much more difficult to that for a whole course.
-JimG
--
Jim Greenlee (j...@cc.gatech.edu) INTER-OFFICE RULES OF THE ROAD:
Instructor, College of Computing Any person carrying a full mug
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 of coffee has the right of way.
Stranger
Hi, Jim! Let me get this straight, please.(I do not mean to start arguing
here, I am just trying to understand your position)
Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu wrote:
> I do exactly that in my OW courses - no student goes on the checkout
> dive without first signing a document that describes the confined
> water skills that were performed and what dates they were done, plus
> an "informed consent" type of document that states that they
> understand the risks involved.
It sounds mostly like taking care of liability issue, in plain English-
covering instructor's and agency's butt. It has really nothing to do with a
quality of teaching, in my opinion.
>Furthermore, no student of mine gets a C-card until they sign a
>document stating that they DO, in fact, "feel competent to engage in
>open water diving activities without direct leadership supervision".
Do you sincerely believe that all of those who sign it, in fact DO feel
quite competent? Did it ever occur to you that in desire to get a C-card
some of them just sign it even though they DO NOT feel this way? Or just
sign it so they would not feel embarrassed in front of the rest of the
group, being afraid to show their weaknesses to others? Of course, you are
going to say that your students should not feel this way, but they are
humans. And I believe every teacher should have at least basic understanding
of human psychology.
>If they are not willing to sign their name to that statement, then I
>am not willing to give them a card.
What do you mean? Would not you work with them longer until they indeed feel
comfortable with their skills and ready to sign it (not just to get you off
their backs) ?
Thank you.
BTW, it sounds like you are with SSI. Right?
John Mills
>
> regards
> m
Hi,
I don't know Mike, it's spelled out exactly what needs to be done in the
courses & during my dive courses I had no time or inclination to stray
from the matter/excercise at hand. It was all new & required all of my
attention.
I'll bet the other way, that most new to diving are pretty attentive
during their dives.
I wonder what percentage of newly certified divers get this
questionaire?
Judging the course? Well, yes, you could tick off a list of exercises
that were required & performed, biggest question to answer tho' is-Do
you feel confidant and have you mastered the skills required for this
level? ( not , did you do it -once ?)
Is that in the questionaire? I was told I'd get one but never did.
Anonymous spot checks, tho', there's no way instructors would stand for
that . It's called spying. People dislike it.
You'd have to train pro-level divers to have that spy/sneak mentality.
Had a bit of fun a few weeks back, a friend is studying for his
instructor cert and had to do some confined water stuff, we were
volunteered to be the fake newbies. Did we fake?The pre-dive brief was
exasperating - for him. (Budding instructors, don't seek good friends
for that confined session)
You know, "Could you help me with my BCD mate?" "Which one do I put in
my mouth?" (Reg or SPG) "What's this thing?" ( A F---ING shell)
We had heard that patience was one of the virtues the IDC was looking
for.
Random spot checks might be better. Inspector rings up, asks when the
next class is & says I'm gonna be there to have a look at what's going
on.'
If instructors know that an inspector could drop in , check out the
instructor, gear, students capabilities -"Just finished the mask
clearing have you? Care to give me a demo" that might cause people
(instructors) to be more diligent.
It works in other scenarios. Random breath tests to control drinking &
driving, truck weighing stations (I don't know how this works in the
States but in Oz weighing stations open randomly thru the week,
inspectors also visit roadhouses & truck stops to check for unsafe
loads)
'Course, this means that Dive organisations will need to train
inspectors. (Money)
Is that gonna happen?
George Irvine, well I don't know him but..........
I had to write the name in sticking with the thread.
Dive,the safer the better.
John.
Mike Gray
> >that . It's called spying. People dislike it.
>
> my agency, and have nothing to hide. If that's what it takes to clean
> up the industry, then I am willing to go along.
An instructor's ticket is a franchise, no different than a McDonalds
franchise. I think competent instructors would have no problem with
anonymous spot checks, and the franchisor (PADI/McDonalds) should have a
very strong interest in assuring that standards are met.
regards
m
John Brett
On Tue, 12 May 1998 11:05:13 GMT, Dave Roberts
<obscured_...@nospam.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>Questionaires are good, but I think the students should send them
>back to the training agency involved.
<snip>
This is the way PADI currently works, and, I believe, how the
suggestion was intended.
John Brett
John Mills
Hi Mike,
I think everyone should have a very strong interest in meeting high
standards.
The problem with anoynmous spot checks is that is reaks of mistrust.
You used Mcdonalds as an example , I'll continue by asking does Ronald
have inspectors going around checking that standards are maintained or
do they employ people to pretend they are hamburger chefs but are really
inspectors in disguise?
Correct me if I'm wrong but suspect it's the former.
If a company or organisation wants to succeed they need to be open,
communicative and honest with their employees and members.
John.
OnAirat500
With all of the different ideas for providing quality assurance by diving
agencies, I think a lot of people have forgotten the single most important
method. Not allowing someone to become an instructor in the first place until
they are more than ready. It's called preventitive medicine. Why wait to cure
a problem when you can go a long way to preventing the problem before it
exists. I think one of the greatest problems with the technical diving
community is the fact that instructorships are often acquired without a
formalized Instructor Examination.
With PADI, an instructor has to pass through several levels before the are even
authorized to take an IDC (Instructor Development Course). Once that has been
completed they are NOT instructors, they are simply elligable to take the
Instructor Exam. Now I will admit that there are some real beauties that
manage to pass through those requirements and still become instructors in spite
of the fact that they couldn't find thier asses without a road map. But for
the most part it is a fundamentally sound concept.
With the technical agencies you can become an "instructor" after taking a
course with an instructor trainer. There is no QA provided by the agency
itself. There aren't even formalized academic exams that are required to be
taken in order to get your instuctorship in a technical level. In my opinion
that is absolutely assinine. And because of it you wind up with instructors
who often aren't following a sound training method because none was taught to
them. I have seen these first hand. I am an instructor trainer all the way
through trimix and in all areas in between, and I have seen some of my
colleagues signing off on people who probably had no business teaching such a
high risk, equipment intensive sport.
I think that formalizing much of the advanced training down to a rigid system
wherein only the most dedicated, committed and responsible people who meet all
of the criteria both academically and practically receive instructor ratings.
anyway,
just my two cents worth.
Nathan H. Wheeler
TDI Instructor Trainer
Dave Roberts
John Brett wrote:
>
> >Questionaires are good, but I think the students should send them
> >back to the training agency involved.
> <snip>
> This is the way PADI currently works, and, I believe, how the
> suggestion was intended.
Must be a difference in either our countries, or the people
running the courses. The only questionaires I've filled in
are from and about the dive centre, I don't recall ever having
a PADI specific questionaire.
John Mills
Kenneth A. Smith
John Mills wrote:
> The problem with anoynmous spot checks is that is reaks of mistrust.
> You used Mcdonalds as an example , I'll continue by asking does Ronald
> have inspectors going around checking that standards are maintained or
> do they employ people to pretend they are hamburger chefs but are really
> inspectors in disguise?
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong but suspect it's the former.
> If a company or organisation wants to succeed they need to be open,
> communicative and honest with their employees and members.
With all due respect, you last comment in certain industries (like Mcd
and many service orgs) would be the kiss of death. In fact, if they want
to succeed, they MUST do it. It is not a matter of tust, it is an
understood policy of random inspections to ensure the highest level of
standards are met to the consumer. This type of testing cannot be done
with announced audits , in any business. It is like ISO9000- pure dog
and pony...."I know your coming" is tatamount to putting up the big top
for te next performance....
All of these types of business use both methods, but the most effective
are those that are concealed and the are most closely relate to what the
consumer will experience. From cars parkd just out of site with
reviewers with binoculars timing the drive up window, to timers and
inspectors standing in line as "consumers" Dont get me wrong, there are
the _insiide_ inspections as well......
Now take this approach on the Dive instruction industry and I know it
would clean up a lot of "bad" or marginal instructors. ... a loss or
ding on a shops rating system must have some impact as well...
....although thinking about it with the major agencies , all you would
get is better compliance to their own declining standards of
teaching.....
Ken
John Mills
>
> John Mills wrote:
>
> > The problem with anoynmous spot checks is that is reaks of mistrust.
> > You used Mcdonalds as an example , I'll continue by asking does Ronald
> > have inspectors going around checking that standards are maintained or
> > do they employ people to pretend they are hamburger chefs but are really
> > inspectors in disguise?
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong but suspect it's the former.
> > If a company or organisation wants to succeed they need to be open,
> > communicative and honest with their employees and members.
> Kenneth A. Smith wrote:
> With all due respect, you last comment in certain industries (like Mcd
> and many service orgs) would be the kiss of death. In fact, if they want
> to succeed, they MUST do it. It is not a matter of tust, it is an
> understood policy of random inspections to ensure ................
Hi Ken,
I think you've misunderstood my position on this.
My idea in this thread is that random inspections are a good idea,
having random inspections doesn't imply a lack of trust.
Standards need to be maintained & inspectors would be able to see if
things have slipped. Managers are aware of this & rather than resent the
idea of inspections they understand that it is good for their business
and they receive valuable feedback on how well they are keeping up their
side of the business. That's trust.
Knowing that you can be inspected at anytime is part of any business.
The boss checks on his secretary, the foreman his labourers. If there
are problems an eye must be kept on it until such time as the standards
are met. If the problems continue - a dive instructor does not comply
with his/her agency's request that he/she improve training methods- then
stronger action must be taken.
>"I know your coming" is tatamount to putting up the big top
for the next performance....
Well, no, it's not.
I have to ask an instuctor when the next class is so that I can attend (
how else would I know) but unless he sneaks in a midnight session his
students aren't going to improve overnight.
Ronald on the other hand let's all the little Macdonalds know that he
could arrive at anytime day or night. (Otherwise the troops might be
called in to clean up the kitchen)
Either case, there is no deception & no threat. An inspection is for
ironing out problems & weeding out repeat offenders NOT immediately
canning instructors/managers & it should be understood it's for the well
being of the industry/business not a process of punishment .
Where I disagreed with Mike was the idea that anonymous inspections (not
random inspections) would be a good idea.
With this I disagree.
You mentioned cars parked out of sight with binoculars timing food
lanes. I have heard of this being done to research and study businesses
in an effort to improve them and their marketability but not to single
out a store for lax performance.
Another method: Random test certified divers.
Rather than asked in a questionaire how the course was , random testing
of a percentage of newly certified divers could be done. If problems
arise further inspection is warranted.
a) The instructor knows that his students may be tested after a course &
does what he/she does best. b) Even if a student lets his instructor
know that he/she has accepted an invitation to be tested there is little
the instructor can do (except pray he did it right) c) It's an open &
honest way of quality control and the dive agency, the instructor and
the student know that this is good for business & standards are
maintained.
Anonymous testing of instructors will never work. It's too much of a
person to person arrangement. Signing up as an anonymous student is
pulling the wool over someones eyes. You'd have to stand up in the pool,
face the instructor eye to eye and tell that person you're a complete
novice.
There is touching, explaining, understanding, patience, camaraderie,
intimacy, and, for a new diver, perhaps most importantly, trust in an
alien (underwater) environment.
It's not Macdonalds.
" A fishburger, two fries, and a large coke to go, thanks."
John.
Claus Lisberg
On Thu, 07 May 1998 10:37:26 -0700, "Nikki Taylor" <nik...@msn.com>
wrote:
<snip>
>
> I dont know about
>his service except to say that he has a large tatoo on his arm that says
>"Fuck Communism."
Eh? If this is American patriotism then I do hope your god will help
you.
> Only a marine would do that.
I'd be inclined to say that a person who does that is either a bigoted
fool with no knowledge about the subject, or a burned of intellectual
idealist turned cynic. Been around both and one is more fun than the
other. (Playing Kill the Commie loses its attraction quite quickly).
>Also, the seals he intoduced
>me to last weekend didnt have any questions about his being a veteran or
>not. They hugged and greeted him warmly. You sir, are a jerk. This is the
>first and last post I will make to this newsgroup. The crowd here has just
>a little too much testosterone flying around.
>What I dont understand is why so many of you have to be so abusive. Its
>really quite sad, and you should be ashamed.
The words "so many" are a bit misleading. A minority of the posters
indulge in regular flame wars: most however either lurk or post posts
with no ad hominem attacks whatsoever.
My opinions and probably not worth the electrons needed to bring 'em
to you.
--
Claus Lisberg,
Founder of PSWEH (Poor Students With Expensive Hobbies)
Nirfur prophet #1
"A casual stroll through an asylum will show that faith proves nothing." - F. Nietzsche
Claus Lisberg
On Thu, 07 May 1998 23:47:05 GMT, "Larry \"Harris\" Taylor, Ph.D."
<l...@umich.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>, IMHO, a SEAL has earned the right to the name ... a seal is a pretender!
<sigh> *shaking head*
Larry, Larry Larry. All that time at the university and you still got
it wrong. A seal is a cute little cuddly animal that frequently gets
eaten by the big bad commie white shark. ;)
And I though the Pretenders were some band?
No, I am off to save the world from the tyrrany of [insert word here].
>"Harris"
>Larry "Harris" Taylor, Ph.D.
>Scuba Instructor, U of MI
>l...@umich.edu
BARNEY NUMBER 78
We all know about people. Some of us are 'good', and some of us are
not. Some folks we can get along with, and no matter how hard we try
... there are others we just can't seem to stomach. I know I have a
generally caustic, public nature (and I am by no means apologizing for
it).
I've offended some (many <grin>), but at a certain level, everyone
here knows 'they' deserved the bashing they took at my hands. There
are certainly a few folks who've said I was totally in the wrong.
There are others who wish I was even more abrasive.
I want to make it very clear to everyone that I am indeed Barney. I
have posted before as the Big Ol' Catfish, but there was a clear
transition both in and out of that character. I haven't tried to
'hide' behind any other identity, and I am not posting with an
alternate personality elsewhere on this group. I want to emphasize
this, so as to save anyone else here from unjust accusations.
I'm too old to try changing my personality, and I want to leave
everyone with this assurance: If I post to these groups, it will be
as Barney, at least.
--
Barnacle Barney
Life is a tragedy for those who feel
and a comedy for those who think
'Chinese fortune cookie'
Claus Lisberg
BARNEY NUMBER 78 wrote:
> We all know about people. Some of us are 'good', and some of us are
> not. Some folks we can get along with, and no matter how hard we try
> ... there are others we just can't seem to stomach. I know I have a
> generally caustic, public nature (and I am by no means apologizing for
> it).
>
> I've offended some (many <grin>), but at a certain level, everyone
> here knows 'they' deserved the bashing they took at my hands. There
> are certainly a few folks who've said I was totally in the wrong.
> There are others who wish I was even more abrasive.
>
> I want to make it very clear to everyone that I am indeed Barney. I
> have posted before as the Big Ol' Catfish, but there was a clear
> transition both in and out of that character. I haven't tried to
> 'hide' behind any other identity, and I am not posting with an
> alternate personality elsewhere on this group. I want to emphasize
> this, so as to save anyone else here from unjust accusations.
>
> I'm too old to try changing my personality, and I want to leave
> everyone with this assurance: If I post to these groups, it will be
> as Barney, at least.
> --
> Barnacle Barney
> Life is a tragedy for those who feel
> and a comedy for those who think
> 'Chinese fortune cookie'
>
But Barneym the word you should have inserted was NOT Barney. I prefer one of my favourite
religions, but they're all basically the same, so either none should feel offended or all
should.
:)
Scott
Claus Lisberg <clis...@post4.tele.dk.REMOVE.THIS> wrote in article
<356c7aa6...@news.inet.tele.dk>...
> I'd be inclined to say that a person who does that is either a bigoted
> fool with no knowledge about the subject, or a burned of intellectual
> idealist turned cynic. Been around both and one is more fun than the
> other. (Playing Kill the Commie loses its attraction quite quickly).
Actually Claus, my tat was the reaction of a 20 year old kid, scared to
death, with a shitty job to do. If you would like to tell me about all the
wonderful things that communism has brought the world in this century,
please do so by e-mail.
Communist's are people who have nothing, and are eager to share.
> The words "so many" are a bit misleading. A minority of the posters
> indulge in regular flame wars: most however either lurk or post posts
> with no ad hominem attacks whatsoever.
> My opinions and probably not worth the electrons needed to bring 'em
> to you.
Then why post em?
The whole reason for my mention of the Navy divers, and SEALS, was to
illustrate the fact that there is a wealth of diving information available
from the proprietors of the shop. Hundreds of hours under water, in
absolutely the worst and the best conditions. Some took it as some type of
insult or challenge, and the whole thing got out of hand.
Scott
Scott
mmd_n...@evansville.net wrote in article
<35544d25....@news.mytownonline.com>...
> >
> >> SEAL is also capitolized because it's an acronym, sort of like NASA. I
> >think
> >> it stands for "Sea Earth Air and Land", meaning the environments the
> >SEALs can
> >> kick butt in
>
> Norm I know you didn't write this, but whoever did this is wrong.
> SEAL stands for SE(A) A(air) L(and).
Jeez, thanks for stepping in. With the correct info! BTW, whoever was
selling the SEAL dive watches, my cousin, who is active duty SEAL, gave me
the dope on that scene: the SEAL dive watches are made by Casio, not Rolex.
This whole thing got so blown out of shape by guys who were threatened or
whatever. The fellows at the shop I mentioned have hundreds of hours
underwater. That was the reason for the post. Not to say they are badass's
or any of the other BS. Only a reflection of major amounts of experience.
Ron has stories to tell (unless you are an arrogant, know it all asshole)
that will curl your hair. How about being in a chamber, pressured up to
equivalent of 425 fsw, and having your prototype rebreather shit the bed,
and burn your skin and nose to the point of bleeding profusely! The top of
the chamber is filled with Helium. If you want the rest of the story (it is
unreal!), you will just have to go to Hoodsport and have a cup of coffee
with Ron. While you are there, you can get in some great diving. No need to
call me or them liars, just stop in and see for yourself. Its worth the
trip. Ron runs a dive shop because diving is what he loves. It is not a
major source of income for him, its what he lives for, no more, no less.
Thats the reason for the post. Not self aggrandizement, just trying to
share a great spot to practice our chosen sport.
Scott
grey
So where is Hoodsport?????????
Later,
Dave
Scott wrote in message <01bd82b4$e7079580$0d0a3fd1@pkoplin>...
Nathanael Henderson
: death, with a shitty job to do. If you would like to tell me about all the
: wonderful things that communism has brought the world in this century,
Uummm...Komunism and socialism have kept many of the world's
potentially formidible economies crippled, ensuring the prosperity and
power of the United States. :-) (So don't say it never did nothin' for
ya. ;-) In fact, I strongly believe the US should encourage other nations
to pursue communism and socialism--if successful we could own the whole
stinkin' planet in another hundred years.
'Than
Claus Lisberg
Scott wrote:
> Actually Claus, my tat was the reaction of a 20 year old kid, scared to
> death, with a shitty job to do.
I can certainly understand that, but I personally find it a bit ignorant to
dismiss something without knowing much about it.
Had you said "fuck Soviet speudo communism smokescreen for a dictatorship"
then I would agree. But then again, it'd be a huge tattoo. Good thing SEALs
have huge arms ;)
> If you would like to tell me about all the
> wonderful things that communism has brought the world in this century,
> please do so by e-mail.
> Communist's are people who have nothing, and are eager to share.
It's a bit more complicated than that but this isn't the proper newsgroup.
> > The words "so many" are a bit misleading. A minority of the posters
> > indulge in regular flame wars: most however either lurk or post posts
> > with no ad hominem attacks whatsoever.
>
> > My opinions and probably not worth the electrons needed to bring 'em
> > to you.
>
> Then why post em?
The operative word being "probably". One day I might get lucky and post
something useful.
> The whole reason for my mention of the Navy divers, and SEALS, was to
> illustrate the fact that there is a wealth of diving information available
> from the proprietors of the shop. Hundreds of hours under water, in
> absolutely the worst and the best conditions. Some took it as some type of
> insult or challenge, and the whole thing got out of hand.
Yep.
> Scott
--
Claus Lisberg,
Founder of PSWEH (Poor Students With Expensive Hobbies)
Nirfur prophet #1 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/clisberg/nirfur.html
Scott
grey <gr...@istar.ca> wrote in article
<LQ581.51$Am4.7...@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net>...
> So where is Hoodsport?????????
> Later,
> Dave
Dave,
Warning: the following is a shameless plug!
Hoodsport is on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State. Its on Hwy 101
north,
just above Shelton, WA. Rons shop is Hood Sport'N Dive, 360-877-6818. Right
out the back door is some great dive spots, easy access, very mild
currents, even during major tidal exchanges. Wolf eel, octopus, and all the
usual cold water critters are in abundance. You may also charter the Bat
Boat. The vis can vary from 50-60 feet to Braille. Ron has air, kayak
rentals, Zodiac rentals, camera rentals, sells OMS, Poseidon, Kirby Morgan,
etc. I have found the best days are during the week, as on the weekends,
the locals have him swamped. I have had the place all to myself on Fridays.
There is a terrific wall to dive, as well as Octopus Hole and Sund Rock.
Scott
Scott
Claus Lisberg <clis...@post4.tele.dk.REMOVE.THIS> wrote in article
<35616768...@post4.tele.dk.REMOVE.THIS>...
> I can certainly understand that, but I personally find it a bit ignorant
to
> dismiss something without knowing much about it.
I read the books. What I know about communism comes from direct observation
of its application by modern practitioners. I would say that it is a bit
arrogant to assess my level of knowledge on the subject based on a simple
post, and a stupid tattoo.
> Had you said "fuck Soviet speudo communism smokescreen for a
dictatorship"
> then I would agree. But then again, it'd be a huge tattoo. Good thing
SEALs
> have huge arms ;)
Again, I am not, was not a SEAL, and I don't consider myself as having
"huge arms",
I am not a little man, but I aint no weight lifter. This is all just for
clarity, lets move on to SCUBA diving, eh? 8-)
> > If you would like to tell me about all the
> > wonderful things that communism has brought the world in this century,
> > please do so by e-mail.
> > Communist's are people who have nothing, and are eager to share.
>
> It's a bit more complicated than that but this isn't the proper
newsgroup.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bingo. My point exactly. Hows the diving where you live?
Scott
Scott
Nathanael Henderson <ju...@pconline.com> wrote in article
<6jqvpe$jet$2...@bell.pconline.com>...
> Uummm...Komunism and socialism have kept many of the world's
> potentially formidible economies crippled, ensuring the prosperity and
> power of the United States. :-) (So don't say it never did nothin' for
> ya. ;-) In fact, I strongly believe the US should encourage other
nations
> to pursue communism and socialism--if successful we could own the whole
> stinkin' planet in another hundred years.
Interesting concept..... Problem is, our government not only pays our tax
dollars out to "stem the red tide", but to bail out the starving and
medically neglected people who live under communist rule. We pay either
way. Beside's, competition keeps the knife sharp. I think the US did pretty
well of its own accord, not so much because we were un-challenged. We do
have all the people who had enough balls to leave the shithole they were
in, and come here with their dreams and hopes on their backs. I dated a
Russian "lady" for a very short time, and the attitude seems to be
something like this:
We are free now, and we adopted your capitolism, so when do we get rich?
She didnt understand when I tried to explain that America didnt happen
overnight. There were well over 200 years of hard work, a civil war that
was damn nasty, 2 World wars, a bunch of nasty little clashes, and every
monarchy on the planet trying to stomp us back into submission. No one gave
us Americans anything. And we are giving Russia, right now, more than they
ever gave us, or ever will give us. She was a well to do, from a commie
family.
At least my tat is accurate now! ;-)
I believe in, and love, the right to be an individual. Perhaps people
(communism advocates) dont realize, under a communism, there would be no
NG's to "spread the word" on. No public access to the internet. No freedom
of speech. Only "the good of the state".
Now then, that should get the flame throwers lit!
Can we please drop this whole thread? It started off with the tragic,
sickening death of a young lady seeking knowledge. It has been perverted
and mutated into whatever it is now, and has nothing to do with SCUBA
diving, or the original post. IANTD has a few questions to ask themselves,
and answer to all of us for. Lets get back to that.
Scott