Den Chief Ropes (augelets)
Ksub
I'm confused on the Den Leader augelets/ropes. My understanding is there
is one kind of rope for Den Chiefs, it is Blue and Gold and worn only
while serving in that position. After they have served a year, and
complete the requirements in the back of the Den Chief book, they are earn
a Service award rope, red and white, that becomes a permanent part of
their unitform. However, tonight my Webelo Den Chief (in a weak moment I
volunteered for a den) pointed to a Webelo Den Chief rope in his handbook
that was next to a Den Chief rope. I didn't know there were 2 kinds and
of course the picture is not in color. The back of the book discusses the
service award. So whats the answer. Since there are 3 ropes (I think)
which is which? Thanks in advance.
Yours in Scouting,
Ken Williamson
Scoutmaster
Troop 6 Pawcatuck CT
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, ks...@aol.com (Ksub) says:
>Hi,
>
>I'm confused on the Den Leader augelets/ropes. My understanding is there
>
There are two different Den Chiefs augelets/ropes, the Blue and Gold
one is for Den Chiefs of Wolf and Bear Dens. The Webelos Den Chief
has Blue, Gold and Red augelets/ropes. He also takes on the additional role
of encouraging the Webelos to bridge to Boy Scouts.
Hope this helps,
-bill
--
Bill Nelson, Webelos Den Leader
Eagles Patrol, Pack 878
Tempe District, Grand Canyon Council
Phoenix, Arizona USA email: nel...@aztec.asu.edu
Farley F Fox
Chief, the red, blue and gold is Webelos Den Chief, and red white ad blue
is Den Chief service award(for both).
--
===============================================================================
df...@starbase.neosoft.com hmmmmmmm....let's see.....Nope!
Farley Fox The Tuna just doesn't taste the same
9328 Spring Branch Dr. without the Dolphin.
Houston, Texas 77080
==============================================================================
Settummanque, the blackeagle
>>I'm confused on the Den Leader augelets/ropes. My understanding is there
>>is one kind of rope for Den Chiefs, it is Blue and Gold and worn only
>>while serving in that position. After they have served a year, and
>>complete the requirements in the back of the Den Chief book, they are earn
>>a Service award rope, red and white, that becomes a permanent part of
>>their unitform. However, tonight my Webelo Den Chief (in a weak moment I
>>volunteered for a den) pointed to a Webelo Den Chief rope in his handbook
>>that was next to a Den Chief rope. I didn't know there were 2 kinds and
>>of course the picture is not in color. The back of the book discusses the
>>service award. So whats the answer. Since there are 3 ropes (I think)
>>which is which? Thanks in advance.
df...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Farley F Fox) writes:
> Let's see, if memory serves me correctly, the gold and blue is for Den
> Chief, the red, blue and gold is Webelos Den Chief, and red white ad blue
> is Den Chief service award(for both).
Okay guys...here it is:
First, Ken, there are FIVE ropes out there and NONE of them are for
the Den LEADER.....
A boy elected or appointed to serve as DENNER (boy leader of the Den),
gets to wear a double GOLD rope, which is worn under the left epulet
and encircling the left shoulder, during his tenure of office, which
should be at least three months but no more than one year.
His ASSISTANT DENNER wears one GOLD rope, in the same manner and in
the same location as the Denner cord is worn for the same period of
time.
The idea is to give as much exposure to leadership among ALL of the
boys in the Den, and not just one or two boys. Each boy should serve
as Denner and as Assistant Denner once during his Cub Scouting years
(Wolf and Bear) and at least once during his WEBELOS Den years
(WEBELOS one and two).
(*personal note: In a WEBELOS DEN, many Den Leaders mistakenly give
the Denner and Assistant Denner "Patrol Leader patches". They ARE NOT
PATROL LEADERS AND ASSISTANTS....even if you call the Den a "patrol".
They are still considered a DEN, and they should wear the Denner and
Assistant Denner cords...and NOT the patches. There exists no Denner
and Assistant Denner patches right now, but read onward...the plot
thickens!*)
Because not many Cub Scout Packs are using Denners and Assistant
Denners, the Cub Scout Program Division has been working with the
Uniform and Insignia Committee and the Supply Division on new Denner
and Assistant Denner patches, which would be available with the start
of the 1995 program year (September). The rationale that was given
was the same as the rationale for the "removal of the WEBELOS colors"
and placing them on the hat....the cords get ripped during play, which
may cause some damage to Cub Scout or WEBELOS Cub Scout's uniforms;
and besides, nobody out there seems to be using the program.
The proposed patch would look like all other Cub Scout leader badges
of office except that the border color would be white and lettering
"Denner" and "Assistant Denner" would also be in white.
Boy Scouts that are appointed by the Senior Patrol Leader, Varsity
Scouts appointed by the Team Captain, and Explorers appointed by the
President or Boatswain, may serve as Den Chiefs for a regular Cub Den
or for a WEBELOS Den for a specified period of time, normally at least
6 months and no more than one year at a time. Those Scouts and
Explorers that serve as Den Chiefs receive a "commission" certificate
from the Pack, attesting to their acceptance; and a badge of office
from the Troop, attesting their appointment. Either at the first Pack
meeting (or more frequently, many local Councils do this after the Den
Chief Training course completion), the Scout or Explorer receives a
Den Chief Cord to be worn during the tenure.
Cub Scout Den Chief cords are blue and gold braided strands worn in a
similar manner as the Denner and Assistant Denner cords, that is...on
the left shoulder, under the epulet and under the armpit of the Scout
or Explorer. WEBELOS Den Chief cords are red, green and yellow, and
are worn in a similar manner.
During the period of first training, the Den Chief starts work toward
the Den Chief Service Award. The requirements include attending Pack
and District Cub leader training events, performing well as a Den
Chief and continued advancement in his Troop or Team or service with
his Post or Ship. When all requirements are completed, the Den Chief
receives the Den Chief Service Award, which is a nice certificate and
a red, white and blue braided cord which is worn AT THE SAME TIME as
the Den Chief cord during the tenure of office.
After the tenure is completed, the Den Chief removes his Den Chief
cord (and in the Pack where I help out with, presents it to the new
Den Chief (he gets another one after the ceremony to keep as a
memento) as the "support to Cub Scouting continues". (I wrote that
ceremony, by the way) and he may continue to wear the Den Chief
Service award until he turns 18 years of age.
(* personal note: there used to be service stars which you can attach
to the old cords to denote years of service as a Den Chief. That
option still exists, but the folks I talked with at National say that
not many Den Chiefs stick around longer than a year, so they have
quietly downplayed that part of the program.*)
So there are FIVE cords, out there, guys:
GOLD cords for the Denner (two) and Assistant Denner (one) in each
Den.
GOLD and BLUE cords for each regular Den Chief in addition to the
position patch
GOLD, RED and GREEN cords for each WEBELOS Den Chief in addition to
the position patch
RED, WHITE AND BLUE cords for each Den Chief that have earned the Den
Chief Service Award, and this is the ONLY cord that may be worn
"permanently" by a Scout until his Scouting youth days are over. All
of the other cords are worn for a temporary period as all Den Chief
positions are APPOINTED (not elected) and all Denner positions are
either ELECTED (preferred) or APPOINTED by the Den Leader.
(the reference for all of this is the current Cub Scout Leader Book,
as well as the Den Chief Handbook).
Hope that gets rid of the confusion...you both were on the right
track, you just didn't take it down far enough!!! *hehehehe*
Settummanque
--
Settummanque, the blackeagle... (MAJ) Mike L. Walton (
co-Owner, Blackeagle Services ___)_
(h) 502-782-7992 (f) 502-781-7279 (w) 502-782-7467 |-=-|]
5350 Louisville Road, #52, Bowling Green, KY 42101-7211 -=====-
Internet: WAL...@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU/America OnLine: KYBLK...@AOL.COM
Windoze Wobbles?? We use GeoPublish (shareware) & Ensemble (commercial)!
Fast & easy & *full* GUI. Try it! ftp://130.219.44.141/pub/geos/publish
Blackeagle Services is NOT affiliated with & does not speak for Western
Kentucky University but is the home to Leaders Online! Ask us about it!
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, wal...@wkuvx1.wku.edu (Settummanque, the blackeagle) says:
[A>
>Because not many Cub Scout Packs are using Denners and Assistant
>Denners, the Cub Scout Program Division has been working with the
>Uniform and Insignia Committee and the Supply Division on new Denner
>and Assistant Denner patches, which would be available with the start
>of the 1995 program year (September). The rationale that was given
>was the same as the rationale for the "removal of the WEBELOS colors"
>and placing them on the hat....the cords get ripped during play, which
>may cause some damage to Cub Scout or WEBELOS Cub Scout's uniforms;
>and besides, nobody out there seems to be using the program.
>
>The proposed patch would look like all other Cub Scout leader badges
>of office except that the border color would be white and lettering
>"Denner" and "Assistant Denner" would also be in white.
>
Did they ask any leaders how they are utilizing the program before
doing this? I know a lot of Den leaders who have the denner office
rotate through the den, each cub taking 1 month. In that way
all the boys get a chance and we don't have to go through the
humiliating election process with 8 and 9 year olds. Now
what are we suppose to do.
I predict that this patch will have about the same fate as
the edict of banning the colors. It won't be used.
It sure would be nice if someone asked the leaders what we
would like to see changed, before things are changed. For
example, they could make the Webelos program a three year
program and have the kids enter scouts at 12, when they
are more mature and ready to handle the independence.
YiS,
bill
--
Bill Nelson, Webelos Den Leader
Eagles Den, Pack 878
Ian Ford
valid - however, I think that the general theme about WEBELOS being to
much like Boy Scouts needs further discussion.
I help with a British Cub Scout pack. The Sixers (Denners) get real
responsibility -e.g. they help the Leaders to plan the program , they
look after their Sixes (dens) on camp , and generally have a positive
leadership experience. We have twenty two boys ( just transferred ten to
Scouts , otherwise our number is around thirty) and three adults - so boy
leadership is imperative. I will be running a Sixer training Course in
March to orient the new Sixers.
British Cub Scouts get anything up to fifteen / twenty nights camping in
the two and a half years they are in the pack , i.e. age eight to ten and
a half. BUT that is Scout camping. From what I've seen of Webelos it is
father and son camping and the kids get to do very little. My eight year
olds put up their own tents under supervision of the ten year-olds. They
cook their own meals. They keep their tents tidy because the ten year-old
Sixer tells them what to do. We have tent inspections with full kit
layout and points for the Six and Cub of the Camp.
The advantage is then when a Cub becomes a Scout at ten and a half he
already has some basic skills. I had a kid who had been a Cub Scout in a
UK pack join Troop 401 and he made Tenderfoot in about two months - the
limiiting factor being the thirty day fitness requirement. Why ? Because
he had already learnt most of the skills as a Cub Scout.
I was First year Program Director at the BSA Summer Camp in England two
years ago , and I was shocked at how little Scouting skill some of the
Webelos had acquired to prepare them for the troop. It was clear that some
packs/dens had been running a good outdoor program , but some clearly had
not..
My experience is that kids who have been through a good , boy led ,
Scouting orientated Cub Scout program go on to become Scouts. My British
pack transferred twelve out of thirteen eligible Cubs , and after six
months ten are still in the troop. Our Cubs have Scouts as helpers on
Cub Camp. As it happened , our last camp clashed with a troop event , so
I had three BSA Scouts from T401 as helpers.
I'm editing this on line with a new editor and it's driving me crazy -
apologies for the typos but there is a lag and I can't see what I have
typeed. Yeek ... there it goes again.
But don't worry about giving Cub Scouts outdoor activities - you won't
"spooil" them for the Scouts <provided> the troop has a good outdoor program
with adventurous activities.
Just look at what the Scouts can do - shooting , caving , canoeing ,
sailing , rock-climbing, back-packing , cycle camping ... If troops were
forced to develop a better and more creative program for the elen and
twelve year olds it might help the retention rate.
Of course , BSA restricts some of the activities which older Scouts get
to do here in UK , e.g. para-gliding and go-karting , because of
insurance etc. But there are still loads of activities that Scouts can do.
I have found that often the leaders who complain about the Cubs doing too
much outdoor Scouting are the ones whose own troop programs are poor and
lacking in imagination. I used to run an Air Scout Troop in London -
most months we would be camping , but the program would include helping
at air shows , flying , model flying etc. - not just sitting around in a
field waiting to cook the next meal. That's why we had the biggest troop
in the district, and why kids came to <join> at fourteen plus. The
British troop for which I am currently AGSL has forty Scouts , male and
female , and excellent training record and a very good retention rate. We
have over forty Scouts in the troop. The SL lets the youth run the troop,
and it works very well indeed. There is <no> problem in having Cub
Scouts who join the troop able to read a map , put up a tent, light a
fire etc. Indeed, since we don't operate " new Scout patrols " the new
boys integrate into existing patrols and have the skills to fit in
straight away.
Just another perspective ... your mileage may differ.
Ian N Ford
Asst Group Scout Leader, 25th Greenwich
ASM, BSA Troop 401, American School in London
London UK
Settummanque, the blackeagle
> In a previous article (Settummanque, the blackeagle) said:
>>Because not many Cub Scout Packs are using Denners and Assistant
>>Denners, the Cub Scout Program Division has been working with the
>>Uniform and Insignia Committee and the Supply Division on new Denner
>>and Assistant Denner patches, which would be available with the start
>>of the 1995 program year (September). The rationale that was given
>>was the same as the rationale for the "removal of the WEBELOS colors"
>>and placing them on the hat....the cords get ripped during play, which
>>may cause some damage to Cub Scout or WEBELOS Cub Scout's uniforms;
>>and besides, nobody out there seems to be using the program.
>>
>>The proposed patch would look like all other Cub Scout leader badges
>>of office except that the border color would be white and lettering
>>"Denner" and "Assistant Denner" would also be in white.
> Now national has come up with a denner patch???!!!
>
> Did they ask any leaders how they are utilizing the program before
> doing this?
Yep. They asked their "quality Councils" and "Quality Region" how they
are using Denners and Assistant Denners, and the response they got
back was that most Packs weren't using Denners and Assistant Denners.
Those Packs that were using them, were about a three-way split between
rotating it amoung all boys (which is how your Pack does it) monthly,
rotating it quarterly and holding elections quarterly. I've talked
with the Associate Director of Cub Scouting about this a while back,
and he was the one that told me that "we're working on a new patch to
take the place of the cords, because we've discovered that many kids
either get their shirts torn or caught on something as a result of
child play with the cords hanging" (nevermind, if the cords were worn
properly, that would be less of a problem. They are supposed to be
worn UNDER the armpits, NOT "hanging off of the shoulder" like a
military honor).
>I know a lot of Den leaders who have the denner office
> rotate through the den, each cub taking 1 month. In that way
> all the boys get a chance and we don't have to go through the
> humiliating election process with 8 and 9 year olds. Now
> what are we suppose to do.
Tell National to keep the shoulder ropes and to insert in the Cub
Handbooks (Wolf, Bear and WEBELOS) how the Denner/Assistant Denner
cords are to be worn. Believe it or not, the part of the Cub program
gets SELDOM play during Cub Leader Basic courses....
...for that matter, very little is said about Den Chiefs too.
> I predict that this patch will have about the same fate as
> the edict of banning the colors. It won't be used.
I agree with you and I was one of those that lobbied National to bring
back the WEBELOS colors. Somehow seeing advancement being displayed
on the blue section of a hat didn't really thrill me...nor make me
feel like the kid really appreciated what it is he earned.
> It sure would be nice if someone asked the leaders what we
> would like to see changed, before things are changed.
They do, but somehow they never ask US. Instead they ask units that
are highly successful, within local Councils which are highly
successful within a Region which has experienced exceptional growth.
I'll have to explain that in detail again someday, Bill.
> For
> example, they could make the Webelos program a three year
> program and have the kids enter scouts at 12, when they
> are more mature and ready to handle the independence.
NOT! I am a strong opponent of this two-year WEBELOS program, even
though I do support it in my training visits. Why? Because the two
year program only serves to placate WEBELOS until they are "old
enough" for Scouts. The kids in those Dens/Patrols spend too much
time doing "Scouting things" and by the time they have graduated from
Cubs to Scouts, they have spent anywhere from 10 to 20 days of
camping already! What can we show, teach or allow them to do in
Scouting that they've HAVEN'T done already in the two years of
"palling around with a Troop" and going to a ONE-WEEK "WEBELOS camp"?
(sounds like junior Summer camp to me!)
[note to those from OUTSIDE THE BSA: The two-year WEBELOS program is
designed to allow WEBELOS Cub Scouts the opportunity to try out and
get aquainted with a Boy Scout Troop and it's operation. It is two
years long because of the fact that our schools are teaching skills to
younger boys, and the BSA felt that an expanded WEBELOS program would
tend to entice more kids to graduate from Cubs to Scouts, would tend
to keep them in the program, and would give them "what they've been
wanting to do since becoming a Cub Scout: camp, hike and cook with the
"big boys".
WEBELOS is an acynomn, meaning "WE'll BE LOyal Scouts". During the
two year period, those Cub Scouts are assigned to special Dens which
may on their option, wear the Boy Scout uniform (with dark blue
shoulder loops and the WEBELOS Scout neckerchiefs and slide), create
Patrols (complete with Patrol name, emblem and flag) and work closely
with one particular or several Boy Scout Troops. In most locations,
the Den/Patrol works together on skills which merits each boy a
metallic pin to be placed on either their hats or on special colors
which are worn on left shoulder; earn the WEBELOS Badge, the fourth of
a series of patches to be worn; and when they complete individual
requirements, they earn the Arrow of Light, which is Cub Scouting's
highest award. The Den/Patrol in most locations graduates together,
and move into a Troop together as a "new patrol". The Den Leader
(adult) most frequently becomes an Assistant Scoutmaster-New Boys
Patrol and the receiving Troop appoints a boy to serve as Patrol
Guide, to give guidance to the new-boys Patrol leader. ]
I do agree with the premise. I don't agree with the implementation.
I think that part of the "desire for graduation" is the idea of
wondering what is on the other side of the bridge, what NEW things can
I be taught and what NEW friends can I meet in Scouting that I don't
have here with my WEB budds. By grouping everyone together into one
"graduation group" and then moving the entire Den/Patrol to serve as a
"ka-wan-a-be" Patrol (I got that name from someone on Scouts-L...I
love it and am using it at training courses this spring, hoping that
it will rub off onto others)....I just don't see it as a bonding
experience with the TROOP.
What I see is a huddled group of kids, led by a Denner/Patrol Leader,
advised by an adult Den Leader/Assistant Scoutmaster that wants to
keep them all together no matter what, and some kid called a "Patrol
Guide" that is supposed to explain how the Troop does things and
somehow to coach the Patrol Leader (which doesn't happen, because you
have an adult telling him "remember in WEBELOS how we did this?", as
opposed to the Scout telling him "Hey...this is how we do this..")
Who will he listen to? Not the Patrol Guide.
Oh well....I just had to spout out my *personal opinion*. I do think
that if all parties get trained and use the program the way it is
intended, that somehow those kids WILL make it through the first year
and they all will become First Class Scouts and they will move onward
to other Patrols to serve as Scouts later.
But not many Packs and Troops will take the time and TOGETHER work
things out the way they are intended to work. That's why this program
isn't working the way it was engineered to.
But we'll keep on trying.
Settummanque!
Jim Miller, Jr.
stated that when his Cubs get to Scouts, they already have most of their basic
camping skills. This is a part of the problem. A big part of the program is
taken away from the Scouts by doing this. The older Scouts have lost the
opportunity to teach the new Scouts those skills. This teaching of younger
boys by older boys is a major and important part of the Boy Scout program and
Cubs who already know their knots, how to pick a spot and pitch a tent, etc.
don't need the older Scouts to teach them.
Any Troop I have ever worked with has always used the teaching of these skills
as a huge part of the program. New boys who were not Cubs will enjoy this
part of the program and learn from it. Cubs who already know these skills
will become bored by sitting through lessons on things that they already know.
If they're bored, they may leave the program. If they leave the program, we
have all failed at our jobs. This is why I object to Cubs learning "Scout
skills" at all. While it may help the Cubs who learn the skills, it inherently
damages the program of the Troop they will go to.
|Jim Miller, Jr. <jmil...@lsfcu.org> Eagle Scout - '88|
|Systems Administator Vigil Honor - '94|
|Liberty Savings Federal Credit Union Meechgalhukquot-|
|Jersey City, NJ "Redheaded One"|
|Advisor, Explorer Post 348 Hudson Liberty Council, BSA|
| "On my honor I will do my best..." |
If we weren't meant to eat meat, cows would move a heck of a lot faster
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, jmil...@lsfcu.org (Jim Miller, Jr.) says:
>Ian made some good comments, but I do have a problem with part of it. He
>stated that when his Cubs get to Scouts, they already have most of their basic
>camping skills. This is a part of the problem. A big part of the program is
>taken away from the Scouts by doing this. The older Scouts have lost the
>opportunity to teach the new Scouts those skills. This teaching of younger
>boys by older boys is a major and important part of the Boy Scout program and
>Cubs who already know their knots, how to pick a spot and pitch a tent, etc.
>don't need the older Scouts to teach them.
I don't know what other Webelos patrols do (or other 9-10 yr scouts do),
but we only teach the rudaments of camping. I would NOT describe it
as BASIC CAMPING SKILLS. For example:
All camping is tailgate camping, with parents. We do not backpack.
Most of the cooking (98%) is done by parents, what is done by the
boys is heavily directed by the parents.
The boys do NOT start fires by themselves.
Any hiking we do is kept short.
I really think what we are doing is giving the boys a 'taste' of
what it is like to be a Boy Scout. I really don't think SPL and SM
need to worry about us stealing their program. Remember, we are
dealing with 9 and 10 year old boys here.
What we are doing is getting them out of the home setting and
showing them that there is a great outdoor playground that they
will be able to master when they are scouts.
-bill
--
Bill Nelson, Webelos Den Leader
Eagles Patrol, Pack 878
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, ian...@tdc.dircon.co.uk (Ian Ford) says:
>
>But don't worry about giving Cub Scouts outdoor activities - you won't
>"spooil" them for the Scouts <provided> the troop has a good outdoor program
>with adventurous activities.
>
>Just look at what the Scouts can do - shooting , caving , canoeing ,
>sailing , rock-climbing, back-packing , cycle camping ... If troops were
>forced to develop a better and more creative program for the elen and
>twelve year olds it might help the retention rate.
>
I agree with Ian on this. The Troops in our area are very active and
have encouraged our activities.
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, wal...@wkuvx1.wku.edu (Settummanque, the blackeagle) says:
>nel...@aztec.inre.asu.edu (BILL NELSON) writes:
>
>> In a previous article (Settummanque, the blackeagle) said:
>
>
>Yep. They asked their "quality Councils" and "Quality Region" how they
>are using Denners and Assistant Denners, and the response they got
>back was that most Packs weren't using Denners and Assistant Denners.
Did the Packs really ask for a Denner PATCH that mothers have
to sew on and then take off in 6 months?
>
>Tell National to keep the shoulder ropes and to insert in the Cub
>Handbooks (Wolf, Bear and WEBELOS) how the Denner/Assistant Denner
>cords are to be worn. Believe it or not, the part of the Cub program
>gets SELDOM play during Cub Leader Basic courses....
>
I would think that would be the normal problem resolution to
a problem rooted in lack of information.
>...for that matter, very little is said about Den Chiefs too.
I really like the Den Chief program. Our Den Chief is very
active and great with the scouts. More could be said about
how a leader should guide the Den Chief, though.
>
>I agree with you and I was one of those that lobbied National to bring
>back the WEBELOS colors. Somehow seeing advancement being displayed
>on the blue section of a hat didn't really thrill me...nor make me
>feel like the kid really appreciated what it is he earned.
>
The Webelos LOVE their colors. In fact, I have asked them a number
of times not to wear them at activities, and they refuse to take
them off! So the colors stay on.
>
>They do, but somehow they never ask US. Instead they ask units that
>are highly successful, within local Councils which are highly
>successful within a Region which has experienced exceptional growth.
>
In other words, where they don't need any help... Don't get me wrong
we are in a very active and successful district. I just belong to
a pack that is only 3 years old.
>camping already! What can we show, teach or allow them to do in
>Scouting that they've HAVEN'T done already in the two years of
>"palling around with a Troop" and going to a ONE-WEEK "WEBELOS camp"?
>(sounds like junior Summer camp to me!)
>
You can teach them TONS! We don't do 20 days of camping. Maybe
if they participate in all the campouts (and that is a minority of scouts)
they will get 12 days of camping in before bridging. But this is
tailgate camping. Not backpacking. They don't really learn first aid.
They don't really learn how to handle fire. They don't do any caving,
climbing, etc. They don't camp in the snow (at least we don't). etc.
>
>What I see is a huddled group of kids, led by a Denner/Patrol Leader,
>advised by an adult Den Leader/Assistant Scoutmaster that wants to
>keep them all together no matter what, and some kid called a "Patrol
>Guide"
Not me! I actually would like to see them assimilate into already
existing patrols where older scouts can truely 'lead' them.
>
>But not many Packs and Troops will take the time and TOGETHER work
>things out the way they are intended to work. That's why this program
>isn't working the way it was engineered to.
Here is the key. Troops need to be taught that it is their responsibility
to work with the Packs to develop cubs into scouts. Instead I have heard
many Cub leaders say that they have approached troops and not had any
one return their calls for help.
>
>But we'll keep on trying.
>
Amen!
Settummanque, the blackeagle
>>> In a previous article (Settummanque, the blackeagle) said:
>>Yep. They asked their "quality Councils" and "Quality Region" how they
>>are using Denners and Assistant Denners, and the response they got
>>back was that most Packs weren't using Denners and Assistant Denners.
> Did the Packs really ask for a Denner PATCH that mothers have
> to sew on and then take off in 6 months?
Bill, Patrol Leaders only serve a 6 month term normally and other
Troop officer serve a 6 month term normally as well (perhaps this may
lead us into a new string: how long does YOUR Troop leaders stay in
office?). After their term of office is over, they have to take off
(or should take off) their Patrol Leader's (or other office's) patch.
The way I understand it, one of the recommendations was for a Denner
and Assistant Denner Patch, similar to the ones which were used for
the Denner and Assistant Denner from 1952 to 1973 (one gold bar on a
blue background for the Assistant Denner; the Denner wore two gold
bars). And yes, they DID rotate the office around back in those days.
>>Tell National to keep the shoulder ropes and to insert in the Cub
>>Handbooks (Wolf, Bear and WEBELOS) how the Denner/Assistant Denner
>>cords are to be worn. Believe it or not, the part of the Cub program
>>gets SELDOM play during Cub Leader Basic courses....
>>
> I would think that would be the normal problem resolution to
> a problem rooted in lack of information.
Not if the BSA does it, Bill...please note how the BSA has handled
many issues before in our past...instead of more and clearer
communications, we got more patches and more "new things to be
concerned about".
>>camping already! What can we show, teach or allow them to do in
>>Scouting that they've HAVEN'T done already in the two years of
>>"palling around with a Troop" and going to a ONE-WEEK "WEBELOS camp"?
>>(sounds like junior Summer camp to me!)
> You can teach them TONS! We don't do 20 days of camping. Maybe
> if they participate in all the campouts (and that is a minority of scouts)
> they will get 12 days of camping in before bridging. But this is
> tailgate camping. Not backpacking. They don't really learn first aid.
> They don't really learn how to handle fire. They don't do any caving,
> climbing, etc. They don't camp in the snow (at least we don't). etc.
Your Pack is the EXCEPTION and not the general rule, Bill. Many
WEBELOS Dens have taken it upon themselves to "do everything that Boy
Scouts do", so that when they become Boy Scouts, and the entire Den
moves to become the "new Patrol", they won't "look like dunces when
they go on their first campout and they can hold their own against all
of the other patrols in the Troop".
What they've done is to take out the ability of the older boys in that
Troop to impart knowledge and teach those Scouts the skills they need
to know to survive in the Troop. The position called "Instructor" is
about non-existant in most if not all Troops. These were boys
appointed by the Scoutmaster and Senior Patrol Leader to do just that:
instruct Scouts on basic Scouting skills. It was considered an HONOR
to serve as an Instructor....some Councils held special "Instructor
Training courses" just for the Troop Instructors, many of which were
15-17 year old boys that the younger ones looked up to anyway.
>>What I see is a huddled group of kids, led by a Denner/Patrol Leader,
>>advised by an adult Den Leader/Assistant Scoutmaster that wants to
>>keep them all together no matter what, and some kid called a "Patrol
>>Guide"
>
> Not me! I actually would like to see them assimilate into already
> existing patrols where older scouts can truely 'lead' them.
It doesn't happen in many Packs, and in very few Troops, which
explains why the BSA has been reworking and relooking the entire
program again and again. Expect to see some MORE changes to the
program in the coming program year.
>>But not many Packs and Troops will take the time and TOGETHER work
>>things out the way they are intended to work. That's why this program
>>isn't working the way it was engineered to.
>
> Here is the key. Troops need to be taught that it is their responsibility
> to work with the Packs to develop cubs into scouts. Instead I have heard
> many Cub leaders say that they have approached troops and not had any
> one return their calls for help.
Because many Scoutmasters have already "caught on" to the deal: for an
increase in 10-20 boys over a two year period, you get another
Assistant Scoutmaster, that basically serves as "patrol leader", you
get kids that at first are excited about being Boy Scouts; and then,
after a couple of months, tire of "going to the same places over and
over....we've been there as WEBELOS, we've done it as WEBELOS, we've
seen it as WEBELOS...". How can a Scoutmaster deal with that? He
can't send the entire Troop to a new location, because there are OTHER
kids that still have never been there (or because the local Council
has placed a "stopper" on out-of-Council Camping). You also get
another Troop leadership position to dole out, called a "Troop Guide"
He don't really get to "Guide" the Patrol Leader...the Assistant
Scoutmaster-New Guys Patrol does that job too.
So in essense, the Scoutmaster is running THREE programs: one for the
older boys of the Troop; another for the youngest boys in the Troop;
and the "regular program" for everyone else!
So why *would* they? (they SHOULD return the calls, though. That's
not right!)
Settummanque!