Tribe of Mic-O-Say
Daniel Engle
Tribe of Mic-O-Say. I'm really curious as to how many people actually
like/dislike the program nationally. In the Heart of America Council of BSA,
the Tribe is one of the strongest and most positive motivators that a scount
can get as he travels up and beyond the rank of Eagle. Just to let you guys
know that I'm not trying to start a fight but a real, intelligent discussion,
I am very familiar with both. I am a Keeper of the Sacred Bundle in the
Tribe, and a Brotherhood member of the Tamegonit Lodge, WWW.
In my personal opinion, I have felt that the Tribe has served me better and
has brought out many of the qualities I possess as a leader and as a
counselor at the H. Roe Barle Scout Reservation. I entered Order of the
Arrow AFTER I attained my Eagle Scout rank at 15, and I attribute this mainly
because of the way OA induction is handled (via elections within the troop).
It didn't teach me anything new, and it didn't help me develop nearly as much
as the Tribe did. I don't know how much of this I can attribute to mere timing.
I hope to find an active but a flame-free discussion. I am also VERY curious
to see if anyone feels the same/opposite that as I do...
Sincerely,
Dan Engle
Eagle Scout, Troop 247, Heart of America Council
Keeper of the Sacred Bundle Little Screaming Iron Horse in
the Tribe of Mic-O-Say at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation,
Osceola, MO
Brotherhood member of Tamegonit Lodge 147,
in the Order of the Arrow at the Theodore Naish Scout Reservation,
Bonner Springs, KS
Mike Young
>A couple of posts back I saw someone putting in a cheap shot against the
>Tribe of Mic-O-Say. I'm really curious as to how many people actually
>like/dislike the program nationally. In the Heart of America Council of BSA,
>can get as he travels up and beyond the rank of Eagle.
Hi, Dan, and thanks for your posting. After having moved to Indiana
after growing up in KC, I miss Mic-O-Say and the Bartle Scout Reservation. I
share some of the same feelings; becoming a member in the Tribe was a great
motivator. I'm very sure it was and is instrumental in the maturation of many
a young man. I am now a Scoutmaster, and am slowly becoming familiar with OA
as it exists in this area. I don't know enough about it to compare the
programs, however.
I also read the post that Dan refers to. I'm not sure I'd call it
a 'cheap shot', as least not from my perspective. Sure, people were pushed
around a bit. It kinda got your attention. And it's not like it was a
surprise to anyone - everybody in the council ring *knew* what to expect
at this point in the ceremony. There was the occasional scraped knee or
elbow I suppose, but measures were taken by the ceremony staff to eliminate
the obvious hazards (sharp objects, etc.) before the ceremony began. It was
a very professional undertaking, and (at least when I was active) it was
* consistent with the prevailing social attitudes and mores * of the parents
and Scouters. But I can't help but think that these attutudes and social
standards have changed a lot since then, as evidenced by other postings in
this group...
(further comments deleted for brevity)
>
>I hope to find an active but a flame-free discussion. I am also VERY curious
>to see if anyone feels the same/opposite that as I do...
I second the motion. Contributors to this newsgroup have shown
that thoughtful, constructive discussion can ensue without degenerating
into the flamefests that so often characterize other newsgroups. I'd also
like to hear from other Tribesmen with opinions on this topic.
>Dan Engle
>Eagle Scout, Troop 247, Heart of America Council
>Keeper of the Sacred Bundle Little Screaming Iron Horse in
> the Tribe of Mic-O-Say at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation,
> Osceola, MO
>Brotherhood member of Tamegonit Lodge 147,
> in the Order of the Arrow at the Theodore Naish Scout Reservation,
> Bonner Springs, KS
>
| Mike Young KA9HZE | yo...@ecn.purdue.edu |
| Purdue University EE Dept. | Tom-Tom Beater Tiny Brown Falling |
| W. Lafayette, IN 47907 | Acorn, Tribe of Mic-O-Say |
_____________________________________________________________________
--
| Mike Young KA9HZE | yo...@ecn.purdue.edu |
| Purdue University EE Dept. | ...!pur-ee!young |
| W. Lafayette, IN 47907 | |
_____________________________________________________________________
William J Turner
writes:
> A couple of posts back I saw someone putting in a cheap shot against the
Well, I guess you mean me. I am sorry, I did not mean for it be come off that
way. I was trying to explain to someone why the OA cannot do "tap-outs"
anymore. The only experience I have with the Tribe of Mic-O-Say is a few scouts
I know who are members, or who were just campers at Bartel at one time or
another. From what they have told me, I understood your "tap-out" ceremony to
be more violent than our lodge's current call-out. One Program Director I
worked under at Mitigwa Scout Reservation was a member of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say
and had some scars from when he was dragged by some members at the tap-out (or
whatever you call it).
That is the extent of my knowledge, but I would love to learn more.
Once again, I am sorry if my comment sounded like a cheap shot.
Yours in Scouting (and Brotherhood),
Will Turner
ASM, Troop 182, Ankeny, Iowa, Mid-Iowa Council
Eagle Scout Class of 1987
Vigil Honor (1991), Mitigwa Lodge #450, Order of the Arrow, W.W.W.
Weuchsowagan--One Who Has Knowledge
Daniel Engle
>In article <1993Apr25.2...@umr.edu>, den...@cs.umr.edu (Daniel Engle)
>writes:
>> A couple of posts back I saw someone putting in a cheap shot against the
>> Tribe of Mic-O-Say. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[explanations and stuff deleted]
>That is the extent of my knowledge, but I would love to learn more.
Terrific! I've posted the address on here for Camping Services, just write
to them...
The "violence" you referred to is merely (now at least) a show...to SHOW that
you are worthy...if there are accidents, the participants are severely
reprimanded...the first accident constitutes a removal of that participant
from the night's activities. That way, there IS no second accident.
>Once again, I am sorry if my comment sounded like a cheap shot.
I'll admit I overread it...but concerning my background I hope you understand.
The Tribe is an extremely positive program, and the ceremonies are designed
to show that the scout is ready to take on life and that he is no mere boy
anymore.
Find out about it! IMHO, The Tribe of Mic-O-Say is an outstanding program,
and maybe OA can learn something from it, and vice versa.
>Yours in Scouting (and Brotherhood),
>Will Turner
>ASM, Troop 182, Ankeny, Iowa, Mid-Iowa Council
>Eagle Scout Class of 1987
>Vigil Honor (1991), Mitigwa Lodge #450, Order of the Arrow, W.W.W.
>Weuchsowagan--One Who Has Knowledge
Grats on the Vigil! *smile*
Bryan L. See
>the Tribe is one of the strongest and most positive motivators that a scount
>can get as he travels up and beyond the rank of Eagle. Just to let you guys
I am Runner Proud Hunting Timberwolf of The Tribe of M-O-Say. In my troops,
I also found this to be the case. My last troop participated in both, for
a while alternating seasons between the ocamps. Scouts seemed
to view OA as a popularity contest and so held less reverence for the honor.
Camp attendance was higher at H. Roe Bartle. Tribesmen seemed to be sought
out for advice and assistance.
I also am a Brotherhood member of OA. I attended a few meetings and functions
and felt no desire to continue. The Tribe has always ment much more to me.
I too, would be curious as to what outsiders feel.
Bruce_Young
a Scout (Eagle class of '74), Scoutmaster and now Cub Committee chairman
(my own boys are now entering Cubs) but I have never heard of the Tribe of
Mic-O-Say! I am an OA member and have been involved to various degrees in
Iowa, Colorado, California and Oregon. Have I just been asleep or is the
Tribe something new? Could someone post a description of the Tribe, its
membership qualifications, activities and goals of the organization?
Thanks.
Yours in Scouting,
Bruce Young
Bryan L. See
based on last experiences a few years old. The entire experience has changed
for Tribesmem and new Tribesmen. There have always been minor changed in the
program from year to year, but several major ones have been instuted in the last
several years. These are changes in the psychological as well as the physical
experience. I think things have managed to calm down without losing the
effectiveness of the program. As compaired to the OA, the experience may
still seem harsh.
William J Turner
writes:
> The "violence" you referred to is merely (now at least) a show...to SHOW that
> you are worthy...if there are accidents, the participants are severely
> reprimanded...the first accident constitutes a removal of that participant
> from the night's activities. That way, there IS no second accident.
I guess some of my information *was* pretty old. :)
> I'll admit I overread it...but concerning my background I hope you
understand.
> The Tribe is an extremely positive program, and the ceremonies are designed
> to show that the scout is ready to take on life and that he is no mere boy
> anymore.
>
> Find out about it! IMHO, The Tribe of Mic-O-Say is an outstanding program,
> and maybe OA can learn something from it, and vice versa.
I understand. If someone said something horrible about the OA, and if I was in
a hurr, or a bad mood that day, or something, then I would probably react the
samde way you did. By the way, I agree completely with the statement about the
two groups learning from each other. Even if neither group outwardly changes
their program at all, it is always valuable to learn how others do things.
That's why I always *try* to learn as much as I can about other programs.
> >Yours in Scouting (and Brotherhood),
>
> >Will Turner
> >ASM, Troop 182, Ankeny, Iowa, Mid-Iowa Council
> >Eagle Scout Class of 1987
> >Vigil Honor (1991), Mitigwa Lodge #450, Order of the Arrow, W.W.W.
> >Weuchsowagan--One Who Has Knowledge
>
> Grats on the Vigil! *smile*
>
Thanks!!!
William J Turner
As an outsider, I can say I am very mystified with the Tribe of Mic-O-Say. I
have seen just enough of it to want to know more. I have some friends in a
troop that used to alternate, and I know some of the scouts *loved* the Tribe,
and reacted the same way you did to OA, but I also know quite a few that did not
like the Tribe's (at least perceived) attitude toward the OA and are now *very*
active in the Mitigwa Lodge of the OA. One in particular is a new Vigil Honor
member and the First Vice Chief of the lodge.
I agree that OA can be a popularity contest, but it isn't supposed to be so.
Part of it stems from the fact that non-members elect the new members of the
Order. I think this is a very good (at least in theory) way to select the
candidates, but I admit it does have some problems.
Any way, I gotta go. I'll be glad to share more points of view on OA and
Mic-O-Say if you want.
Yours in Wimachtendienk,
Will Turner
ASM, Troop 182, Ankeny, Iowa, Mid-Iowa Council
Eagle Scout class of 1987
Vigil Honor member (1991), Mitigwa Lodge #450, Order of the Arrow, W.W.W.
Weuchsowagan--One Who Has Knowledge
Daniel Engle
To my knowledge, which is current of last summer:
The Tribe of Mic-O-Say is active in name in the Pony Express Council, St.
Joseph, MO, where it started, and in the Heart of America Council, which
encompasses Kansas City, its metropolitan area, and some counties to the east
and south of Kansas City.
Camp Geiger, the "source" of Mic-O-Say in the Pony Express Council, uses "lodge
flaps" where OA flaps normally go.
I have no information on the "Tamahawk" Lodge in Iowa. Sounds like an
interesting hybrid to take a look at. :)
Now, concerning entrance requirements: there are some discrepancies between
the Bartle and the Geiger programs. I don't know the Geiger program in depth,
so I'll just give you the Bartle reqs.
Foxman: This is the "pre-Tribesman" level of Mic-O-Say. They were a four
color "medicine stick" and an orange bead to signify that they are
being considered by the Tribal Council for induction into the Tribe.
Requirements include Star rank and 13 years of age.
Brave: The first of two "ranks" in Mic-O-Say, a scout with this designation
wears around his neck a single claw and a medicine pouch, the contents
of which are known only to him and "God almighty". To become a Brave,
a scout must achieve Life rank and be 14 years of age. There is a
rule concerning grade also, but I am not quite sure on the sematics
of it. Note that this is only the prerequisites to be even considered
for the tests required for him to "prove his worth" to the Tribe.
Warrior: A full fledged Tribesman of Mic-O-Say, he is entitled to wear the
double claws. If the Tribesman earned his Brave (which he can only
earn as a scout and not a scouter), then he is known as a "Hardway
Warrior" and may wear his claws back to back. "Honorary Warriors"
and "Honored Women" (who enter the tribe after 18) wear their double
claws in the shape of the full moon. Both "warriors" are eligible
to sit on the Tribal Council as a reward for a number of years
"service" to the Tribe. Hardway Warriors, on the other hand, may be
given responsiblities outside the Tribal Council (firebuilding,
tom-tom beating, etc.), and this is how a hierarchy is established
even though most warriors have already attained Eagle by this time.
This is most of the information that I know that is allowed to be known by
"outsiders" :) If you must ask about the program itself, then I suggest
you write to Camping Services, 10210 Holmes Road, Kansas City, MO 64131.
Hope this has been helpful!
Da Man
Okay, Will then how could voting for the Order of The Arrow change so as not to make it a poplarity contest. I know that in the troops I am helping while in college they say at the elections it is not a poplularity compition but it always turns out to be one. How could we change this so as to get the best people in and not just the most popular.
Also could someone please send me more information via email on The Tribe of M-O-say I missed the original posts on what it is all about.
Thanks
Daniel Peterik
ASM Troop 188 Ankeny , Iowa
ASM Troop 230 Ames, Iowa
Eagle Scout class of 1989
Dave
>>That is the extent of my knowledge, but I would love to learn more.
>Terrific! I've posted the address on here for Camping Services, just write
>to them...
Is 'Tribe of Mic-O-Say' another group of people which has an entry requirement
which seems to be 'suffer physical pain by being beaten up by current members
of the tribe'. I am sure (hope) I'm wrong here so please Daniel tell me that
I am wrong in my perception of the 'Tribe of Mic-O-Say'/OA.
>I'll admit I overread it...but concerning my background I hope you understand.
>The Tribe is an extremely positive program, and the ceremonies are designed
>to show that the scout is ready to take on life and that he is no mere boy
>anymore.
The best way to do that is to leave your parental home (didn't I learn
somthing!). What is the M-o-S programme? I hope it is a bit more than a ceremony
to say that you are 'no longer a mere boy'.
Sorry if I give the impression that I know very little about OA/ToM-o-S. As
I am afraid I know very little about these organisations and what I read about
them (re initiation ceremonies) does not make very good reading.
>>Yours in Scouting (and Brotherhood),
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave cmh...@cck.cov.ac.uk
'What is wrong with my life that I must get drunk every night' (FYC)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Daniel Engle
>In article <1993Apr26....@umr.edu> den...@cs.umr.edu (Daniel Engle) writes:
>>>That is the extent of my knowledge, but I would love to learn more.
>>Terrific! I've posted the address on here for Camping Services, just write
>>to them...
>
>Is 'Tribe of Mic-O-Say' another group of people which has an entry requirement
>which seems to be 'suffer physical pain by being beaten up by current members
>of the tribe'. I am sure (hope) I'm wrong here so please Daniel tell me that
>I am wrong in my perception of the 'Tribe of Mic-O-Say'/OA.
I'll be happy to. You're wrong. :)
Beating people up is no organization's means of instilling maturity. Period.
At least not one that's active with the Boy Scouts of America.
It doesn't happen in the Tribe, and not in my OA Lodge, either.
>The best way to do that is to leave your parental home (didn't I learn
Do most kids leave their home at EIGHT?!?!?!? That's when Scouting has
its earliest influence.
>Sorry if I give the impression that I know very little about OA/ToM-o-S. As
>I am afraid I know very little about these organisations and what I read about
>them (re initiation ceremonies) does not make very good reading.
My suggestion is that you find out on your own, and not base anything on
heresy. I suggest that you spend 10 days at Bartle. The scenery is awesome,
and so is the program.
William J Turner
> Okay, Will then how could voting for the Order of The Arrow change so as not
to make it a poplarity contest. I know that in the troops I am helping while in
college they say at the elections it is not a poplularity compition but it
always turns out to be> one. How could we change this so as to get the best
people in and not just the most popular.
>
> Also could someone please send me more information via email on The Tribe of
M-O-say I missed the original posts on what it is all about.
>
> Thanks
>
> Daniel Peterik
> ASM Troop 188 Ankeny , Iowa
> ASM Troop 230 Ames, Iowa
> Eagle Scout class of 1989
Hi, Dan.
I don't know how to change the elections. As I said, I think it is important
that the nonmembers elect the members of OA. Mostly because then it won't
become a matter of "I'm in the group, and I don't want him (or her) to be in it
and therefore associated with me." I think the only thing that can really be
done at this moment is to stress to the scouts during the elections *not* to
vote for someone just because they are your friend, but because of what they
have done, and can do in the future, for the unit and scouting.
BTW--Troop 182 is *definitely* better than 188. :)
Dan Kary
> to make it a poplarity contest.
Our lodge conducts what I think are standard elections. An election team from
the lodge sets up a date with the Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster provides a
list of Scouts qualified for election. The election team describes OA and the
election process reading from a script. The boys vote. Typically we have 12
boys qualified for election and 3 are elected.
Many of the boys who are not elected and sometimes their parents feel it is
a popularity contest. The same is true for Troop elections for SPL, etc. I
disagree with them. I think the boys in our troop make their decisions based
on who they think matches the description given by the OA team. The boys
who are elected to OA are popular to some degree, of course. The election
criteria are Scouts who are helpful to younger Scouts on campouts etc. When
an older Scout takes time to help out younger Scouts, he will of course be
popular with them. Boys who are popular with their age peers because of charsima
or whatever are not elected in our troop. I think it is because the younger
scouts don't vote for them unless they also provide service as described by
the OA team. We prepare our Troop for elections by discussing the upcoming
elections and the OA and the importance of service to others. The boys
understand they are voting for Scouts based on service.
We let the boys run everything they are inclined to in the Troop. The boys
learn very soon that SPL, etc. dramatically affect the quality of their
program. I believe they select their leaders based on performance and not
just popularity (again, boys who do a good job tend also to be popular, but
it is not merely popularity that got them elected, it is job performance).
I've seen my own sons passed up in elections. They were disappointed. They
grew. They were elected at apropriate times.
Dan Kary
--
"And that, my leige, is how we know the earth to be banana shaped."
William J Turner
I believe Mic-O-Say is mostly just in a few councils, one of which (and where it
started?) is the Heart of America Council around Kansas City. In Iowa, I know a
number of scouts (Ok, maybe a dozen) who are members of the Tribe. I also know
of at least one OA lodge that mixes the two groups. I believe it is the Silver
Tamahawk Lodge, or something like that???, in southeastern Iowa. I have only
heard of it a few times, and I have only seen one of their lodge flaps, but I
think they even have the Mic-O-Say claws on the patch. For more info, since I
am not a member of the Tribe, you can check back a few posts, there was one
discription of the Tribe, and I am sure others on the net will be glad to help
out.
As for qualifications, I have only heard these a few times, but I *think* that
once a scout makes Star (???) that he will wear a bead of some type (I don't
know how to desribe it, but I've seen one.) to let the members know they can be
considered for membership. Then I think once they are Life Scouts, they can
selected by the Tribe for membership.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I just wanted to give Bruce here a little
info.
Yours in Scouting,
Will Turner
ASM, Troop 182, Ankeny, IA--Mid-Iowa Council