Patch placement
Earl & Emma Shelton
Earl & Emma Shelton
Paul Bartells
>
> Does anyone know what the official placement is for the Totin'Chip
> and Firem'n Chip Patches? They look as if they are designed for,
> and I have seen them, on t
I have never heard of patches for these areas. Are they new? Does
mis-handling of knives and/or fire result in loss of the patch, similar
to removing a corner of the cards?
BTW, the fire safety training award is the "Firem'n Chit" not chip. I
have no idea what a 'chit' is, I just know it's hard to say without
raising eyebrows.
YIS,
Paul Bartells
Darrell W. Bartels
>
>Does anyone know what the official placement is for the Totin'Chip and
Firem'n Chip Patches? They look as if they are designed for, and I have
seen them,
These are classified as temporary patches and are worn on the right
pocket. Most people sew them on jackets and vests for a more permanent
diplay.
Bart
Alan Houser
: Earl & Emma Shelton wrote:
: >
: > Does anyone know what the official placement is for the Totin'Chip
: > and Firem'n Chip Patches? They look as if they are designed for,
They may be worn on the right pocket (not the flap) or on the back of the
merit badge sash, or on any non-Scout item (including backpack, patch vest,
etc.). Our council has recently emphasized that these patches do NOT go
on the pocket flaps of the uniform, and I seem to recall a similar message
in Scouting magazine.
: I have never heard of patches for these areas. Are they new? Does
: mis-handling of knives and/or fire result in loss of the patch, similar
: to removing a corner of the cards?
I have seen them around for many years, and they appeared in the BSA
catalog last year, I believe. And yes, you could ask for the patch to
be returned and the Scout undergo retraining if he is demonstrating unsafe
use of fire/wood tools. I haven't done that, though I have taken control
of a knife once. In my experience, the cards generally don't survive the
first washing of the uniform after summer camp, so there aren't any
corners to remove.
: BTW, the fire safety training award is the "Firem'n Chit" not chip. I
: have no idea what a 'chit' is, I just know it's hard to say without
: raising eyebrows.
As I understand it, a chit is a marker or some other evidence of
proficiency or credit in a specified area. Haven't checked my
dictionary on it though, so it may be that I have simply modified its
meaning to my own usage. Comes from the military, I believe, so
perhaps someone with that background can shed some light.
Alan R. Houser ** Scoutmaster, Berkeley Troop 24 ** tro...@emf.net
** WWW page ** http://www.emf.net/~troop24/t24.html **
Jeff Menaker
: : I have never heard of patches for these areas. Are they new? Does
: : to removing a corner of the cards?
: I have seen them around for many years, and they appeared in the BSA
: catalog last year, I believe. And yes, you could ask for the patch to
: be returned and the Scout undergo retraining if he is demonstrating unsafe
: use of fire/wood tools. I haven't done that, though I have taken control
: of a knife once. In my experience, the cards generally don't survive the
: first washing of the uniform after summer camp, so there aren't any
: corners to remove.
As I've heard it, removing corners from a tot'n chip card is
a form of hazing which isn't allowed. I personally think this
is a bit extreme, more discipline (for lack of a better word),
but nonetheless have been told not to cut corners... asking
for/revoking a patch would seem to be much more so.
comments?
-jeff
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Michael Brown
Earl & Emma Shelton <eshe...@best.com> wrote:
>Does anyone know what the official placement is for the Totin'Chip and Firem'n
> Chip Patches? They look as if they are designed for, and I have seen them, on
> eshe...@best.com
The Insignia Guide does not mention them because these patches are not made
by national but by various scout councils. As you say, most are made in a
shape that suggests a pocket flap, so they are propably intended to be worn
there (usually on the right pocket flap). However, that's not an official
place for them, and once the scout joins the OA, that place would be taken up
by his lodge flap. A more appropriate place would be on the right pocket
itself
which is where all such 'temporary' insignia goes.
--
Michael Rogero Brown MOTOROLA Inc., LMPS
Unix Systems Support 8000 W Sunrise Blvd
Plantation FL 33322
Radio:(954) 474-2992, 104680 MailStop: 2410
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Tom Granvold
In article <4louqb$1j...@hearst.cac.psu.edu>,
Jeff Menaker <jxm...@wileypost.cac.psu.edu> wrote:
>As I've heard it, removing corners from a tot'n chip card is
>a form of hazing which isn't allowed. I personally think this
>is a bit extreme, more discipline (for lack of a better word),
>but nonetheless have been told not to cut corners...
I have not heard of this one. Can anyone confirm this?
Personally I don't consider cutting the corner's of a tot'n
chip card hazing.
YiS,
Tom Granvold <thomas....@eng.sun.com>
--
Tom Granvold <thomas....@eng.sun.com>
Kristine Miller
Jeff Menaker (jxm...@wileypost.cac.psu.edu) wrote:
: Alan Houser (tro...@emf.net) wrote:
: : : I have never heard of patches for these areas. Are they new? Does
: : : mis-handling of knives and/or fire result in loss of the patch, similar
: : : to removing a corner of the cards?
: : I have seen them around for many years, and they appeared in the BSA
: : catalog last year, I believe. And yes, you could ask for the patch to
: : be returned and the Scout undergo retraining if he is demonstrating unsafe
: : use of fire/wood tools. I haven't done that, though I have taken control
: : of a knife once. In my experience, the cards generally don't survive the
: : first washing of the uniform after summer camp, so there aren't any
: : corners to remove.
: As I've heard it, removing corners from a tot'n chip card is
: a form of hazing which isn't allowed. I personally think this
: is a bit extreme, more discipline (for lack of a better word),
: but nonetheless have been told not to cut corners... asking
George David Grosik Jr.
I once saw a picture in a magazine, posibly Newsweek, that
pictured a Scout wearing the Fire man chit and totin' chit
patches on his left pocket flap. I am not sure if that is
official, since it is not mentioned in the Insignia Guide.
Before I saw that picture, I was not aware that there were
patches for these achievements. I don't think that our
council carries them, and I have never seen them on any
other scouts. (I kept an eye out at our council's camporee.)
If anyone happens to know the BIN number that National
issued these patches, please email these to me. I would
like to get these for our boys who have earned them.
YiS,
George Grosik, Jr.
cy...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
--
George Grosik, Jr. cy...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
Den Chief: Troop 77 - Westlake, Ohio
Assistant Guide, Tinnerman Wilderness Canoe Base
Greater Cleveland Council Home: (216) 899-9130
Kim Hannemann
In article <4lockt$6...@emf.emf.net>, tro...@emf.net says...
>: > Does anyone know what the official placement is for the Totin'Chip
>: > and Firem'n Chip Patches? They look as if they are designed for,
>: > and I have seen them, on t
>
>They may be worn on the right pocket (not the flap) or on the back of the
>merit badge sash, or on any non-Scout item (including backpack, patch vest,
>etc.). Our council has recently emphasized that these patches do NOT go
>on the pocket flaps of the uniform, and I seem to recall a similar message
>in Scouting magazine.
>
>Alan R. Houser ** Scoutmaster, Berkeley Troop 24 ** tro...@emf.net
> ** WWW page ** http://www.emf.net/~troop24/t24.html **
Interesting. Then why are they (Totin' Chip at least - I've never seen a
Firem'n Chit patch, only the card) shaped like a pocket flap? I have only ever
seen the TC patch on the right pocket flap, unless/until the Scout is elected
to OA at which time it is replaced by the local OA flap (and presumably
relegated to the final resting place of old patches). Wish I had my official
sources here at the office.
Kim (KHann...@worldbank.org)
Derek Alexander Pillie
Dale & Lora Marshall (mars...@texas.net) wrote:
: You bet! Hazing? Give me a break. It's reemphasizing to the scout
: that his conduct with/use of woods tools, knives, and/or fire is unsafe.
: Loss of four corners results in the scout having to retake the
: course for whatever patch he lost.
I agree with alot of you here, it is a definate form of feedback to the
scouts that what they are doing is WRONG. I think it is important and
shouldn't be considered hazing.
: However, I would require that the adult leaders be the ones to remove
: corners and revoke patches. Leaving that power in the hands of
: *some* scouts is just asking for trouble.
Again I agree, I think that some scounts will not be able to handle the
situation responsibly.
: I suppose next they'll want to take away the notches on the OA stick
: for talking...
Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is considered hazing and is not
allowed by National. And this I also agree with. Taking a corner off of
a card isn't the same as notching an arrow with a knofe while it's around
a kid's head. That's just a fear tactic, which I believe is hazing
Awaiting the flames...
YIS,
Derek
---
Derek Alexander Pillie dpi...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
dpi...@aol.com 2100 Eye Street, NW
20 Derstine Road Adams Hall #608
Hatfield, PA 19440-3405 Washington, DC 20052
(215) 723-0759 (202) 676-2480
Paul S.Wolf
Earl & Emma Shelton wrote:
>
> and Firem'n Chip Patches? They look as if they are designed for,
> they really should go on a patch jacket. The official Insignia Guide
> does not mention these patches. eshe...@best.com
Neither of these patches is an OFFICIAL patch recognized by the BSA.
They have been designed and made by PRIVATE companies. When used, as
has been said, they should be worn as TEMPORARY patches (on the right
pocket (not the flap), even though they are sometimes shaped to resemble
pocket flaps.
The OFFICIAL Totin' Chip and Fireman's Chit are CARDS, issued by the
BSA, not patches.
--
Paul S. Wolf, P.E. aa...@Cleveland.Freenet.Edu
Traffic Engineer, Cuyahoga County Engineer's Office
SIGOP, The Scouting Center on the Ceveland Freenet
Honorary President, Great Lakes Region, Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs
Dale & Lora Marshall
Jeff Menaker wrote:
>
> Alan Houser (tro...@emf.net) wrote:
> : : I have never heard of patches for these areas. Are they new? Does
> : : mis-handling of knives and/or fire result in loss of the patch, similar
> : : to removing a corner of the cards?
>
> : I have seen them around for many years, and they appeared in the BSA
> : catalog last year, I believe. And yes, you could ask for the patch to
> : be returned and the Scout undergo retraining if he is demonstrating unsafe
> : use of fire/wood tools. I haven't done that, though I have taken control
> : of a knife once. In my experience, the cards generally don't survive the
> : first washing of the uniform after summer camp, so there aren't any
> : corners to remove.
>
> As I've heard it, removing corners from a tot'n chip card is
> a form of hazing which isn't allowed. I personally think this
> is a bit extreme, more discipline (for lack of a better word),
> but nonetheless have been told not to cut corners... asking
> for/revoking a patch would seem to be much more so.
>
> comments?
>
You bet! Hazing? Give me a break. It's reemphasizing to the scout
that his conduct with/use of woods tools, knives, and/or fire is unsafe.
Loss of four corners results in the scout having to retake the
course for whatever patch he lost.
However, I would require that the adult leaders be the ones to remove
corners and revoke patches. Leaving that power in the hands of
*some* scouts is just asking for trouble.
I suppose next they'll want to take away the notches on the OA stick
for talking...
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dale and Lora Marshall | "I wasn't born in Texas, but I got here |
| mars...@texas.net | as fast as I could!" |
| | - Bumper Sticker |
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| http://www.texas.net/~marshal1 |
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Dan Hicks
In <4lml4u$a...@nntp1.best.com>, Earl & Emma Shelton <eshe...@best.com> writes:
>Does anyone know what the official placement is for the Totin'Chip and
>Firem'n Chip Patches? They look as if they are designed for, and I
>have seen them, on the Scout pocket flaps, but I have heard that they
I've never seen these patches. Where did you get them?
Dan Hicks
http://www.millcomm.com/~danhicks/
Paul S.Wolf
Kim Hannemann wrote:
> >: > Does anyone know what the official placement is for the Totin'Chip
> >: > and Firem'n Chip Patches?
> >
> >They may be worn on the right pocket (not the flap) or on the back of the
> >merit badge sash, or on any non-Scout item (including backpack, patch vest,
> >etc.). Our council has recently emphasized that these patches do NOT go
> >on the pocket flaps of the uniform, and I seem to recall a similar message
> >in Scouting magazine.
> >
> >Alan R. Houser
>
> Interesting. Then why are they (Totin' Chip at least - I've never seen a
> Firem'n Chit patch, only the card) shaped like a pocket flap? I have only ever
> seen the TC patch on the right pocket flap,
>
> Kim (KHann...@worldbank.org)
Because the PRIVATE manufacturer made them that shape.
They are NOT official BSA patches, and as such are worn as Temporary patches only,in
the areas Alan mentioned.
The official Totin' Chip and Firem'n Chit are wallet cards only.
Esver Camacho
In article <4lrj0a$k...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>, dpi...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
(Derek Alexander Pillie) wrote:
> Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is considered hazing and is not
> allowed by National. And this I also agree with. Taking a corner off of
> a card isn't the same as notching an arrow with a knofe while it's around
> a kid's head. That's just a fear tactic, which I believe is hazing
This message regarding cutting the corners of the tote n' chip doesn't
jive with what I've been taught as a scout. It seems that if you've
broken one of the rules, the adults have good reason to penalize you.
Misusing a sharp object is serious enough to warrant, at the very least,
the cutting of a corner of the card (accompanied by a serious talk).
How sure are you that National doesn't condone this?
Incidentally, your driver's license gets point marked against it when you
break the rules of the road. Enough points will get your license suspended
or revoked. If the state does this, and doesn't consider it hazing, why
shouldn't we?
I will now come down from my soap box and allow you all to comment. :)
YiS,
Esver Camacho
Cub Scout Pack 710
http://www.icanect.net/~esver
joe ulrich
In Article<DqH1E...@rwd.goucher.edu>, <kmi...@rwd.goucher.edu> write:
> Newsgroups: rec.scouting,rec.scouting.usa
> Path: jjcd-newsserver!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!rwd!kmiller
> From: kmi...@rwd.goucher.edu (Kristine Miller)
> Subject: Re: Patch placement
> Message-ID: <DqH1E...@rwd.goucher.edu>
> Followup-To: rec.scouting,rec.scouting.usa
> Organization: Goucher College
> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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>
> Jeff Menaker (jxm...@wileypost.cac.psu.edu) wrote:
> : Alan Houser (tro...@emf.net) wrote:
> : : : I have never heard of patches for these areas. Are they new? Does
> : : : mis-handling of knives and/or fire result in loss of the patch,
similar
> : : : to removing a corner of the cards?
>
> : : I have seen them around for many years, and they appeared in the BSA
> : : catalog last year, I believe. And yes, you could ask for the patch to
> : : be returned and the Scout undergo retraining if he is demonstrating
unsafe
> : : use of fire/wood tools. I haven't done that, though I have taken
control
> : : of a knife once. In my experience, the cards generally don't survive
the
> : : first washing of the uniform after summer camp, so there aren't any
> : : corners to remove.
>
> : As I've heard it, removing corners from a tot'n chip card is
> : a form of hazing which isn't allowed. I personally think this
> : is a bit extreme, more discipline (for lack of a better word),
> : but nonetheless have been told not to cut corners... asking
> : for/revoking a patch would seem to be much more so.
>
> : comments?
Why is cutting corners from a tot'n chip considered hazing? I believe it to
be a direct consequence of a boys action.
Joe
Jeff Menaker
Esver Camacho (es...@icanect.net) wrote:
: (Derek Alexander Pillie) wrote:
:
: > Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is considered hazing and is not
: > allowed by National. And this I also agree with. Taking a corner off of
: > a card isn't the same as notching an arrow with a knofe while it's around
: > a kid's head. That's just a fear tactic, which I believe is hazing
: This message regarding cutting the corners of the tote n' chip doesn't
: jive with what I've been taught as a scout. It seems that if you've
: How sure are you that National doesn't condone this?
I believe you misread derek's post, he was stating that BSA
has specifically spoken against the notching of arrows during
an OA ordeal.
Ernie Wisdom
Diego Council summer camp 15 years ago was it was designed for younger
scouts not yet in the OA. I thought it kind of dumb, other leaders
thought it greatest thing since sliced bread. Don’t much care for sliced
bread either.
YiS
Ernie Wisdom
Chris Jacobi
>Neither of these patches is an OFFICIAL patch recognized by the BSA.
>They have been designed and made by PRIVATE companies.
But they are sold by trading posts run by official councils, even
with direction where it goes on the uniform...
Chris
Mike Walton (Settummanque, the blackeagle)
Chris Jacobi wrote:
(about the Tot'em Chip and Firem'n Chip patches)
A local Council, Chris, can authorize a patch or emblem to be worn
on the uniform consistant with National policies and programs.
The Totem/Firem'm Chip cards is part of the program of both Cub
Scouting and Boy Scouting, but there has been questions on whether
or not "cutting" or "chopping" off corners of this card consitute
"hazing". The BSA says it does, as part of it's Youth Protection
policies; therefore, instead of cutting off corners, now we are to
have the Scout to return the card to us or use other ways to inform
the Scout of the error in judgement.
What's wrong with telling the Scout that he cannot use a knife/axe/
saw??? It's the same effect as cutting all four corners of a card.
As far as the patches are concerned, many Councils have printed
instructions that the patches are TEMPORARY, and are NOT to be
worn in the location where the Order of the Arrow insignia are to
be worn, consistant with National policies. Some Councils, like the
Sunnyland Council in Florida, has steadfastly ignored this policy
and have issued their own "camper" patch to be placed there in
addition to allowing the Totem/Fire'm Chip patches (this is where the
patches originated from).
If the local Council allows it, and it is worn in accordance with
NATIONAL policies, I don't have a problem with it. My personal
concern is what do you do with a Scout that has "lost his rights"?
You can't take the patch away from him.
Settummanque!
(MAJ) Mike L. Walton (Settummanque, the blackeagle) (
co-Owner, Blackeagle Services of Kentucky (502.826.7046) __)_
174 Chapelwood Drive, Henderson, Kentucky 42420-5036 | *** | ]
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(WWW) http://scout.net/~cardinal/index.htm
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A PROUD member of the HTML Writers' Guild!
Chris Jacobi
>As I've heard it, removing corners from a tot'n chip card is
>a form of hazing which isn't allowed. I personally think this
>is a bit extreme, more discipline (for lack of a better word),
>but nonetheless have been told not to cut corners... asking
>for/revoking a patch would seem to be much more so.
>comments?
I'd say it depends on the circumstances and how it is done. I
absolutely hate it if camp staff cuts a whittling chip card. It
forces me think hard whether this was a rightfull act and the
staffer needs to be congratulated for being unpopular or
whether it is an instance of hazing and he needs a reprimand or
rarely, whether I should issue a new whittling chip to the cub.
The issue on what is the best experience for the cub and for the
staffer might be independent whether it was hazing or not. It is
also possible (most likely) that the staffer doesn't even know that
he might have crossed the line.
I think the easiest way to handle the case is if you are not in
charge then you don't cut corners.
As a cubmaster I'm frequently upset the other way to: Cubs go on a
council activity and get a whittling chip signed by person who is
not authorized to do so. For example sometimes those council
persons sign whittling chip cards for wolves (It is a bear activity;
most people on my pack's committee DO care about the age requirement
for whittling)
Chris