How Big Should the Ideal Cub Scout Pack Be???
Mike Lake
drew from my son's school split into two packs because the leaders felt
it had gotten too big. The enrollment patterns are rather strange. Over
the last 6 years, every other year has been a big year for Scouting at
this school (the overall school enrollment follows this pattern as well).
Two years ago, between the two packs, we registered over 24 Tiger Cubs.
This was almost 2/3 of the boys in the first grade. The year before that
we registered a total of 7 Tigers and this year we registered a total of
7 as well. Both packs seem to average between 25 and 40 boys each. When
enrollment drops below 30 boys, getting enough parent volunteers to fill
just the basic positions can be fun. In fact, our sister pack will soon
be without a Cubmaster and there are no volunteers stepping forward.
On the other hand, there's the pack at another nearby school that has 80
boys in it. The Cubmaster for that pack is getting frustrated trying to
run the pack meetings with that many boys there. He is seriously
considering recommending they split into two packs like our school did.
As a Cubmaster and a member of our Disrict Cub Scout Roundtable Staff,
I'd be interested to hear from other who have faced this situation, what
they have found to be the ideal size for a Cub Scout Pack.
YIS
Mike Lake
FSK District
NCAC Council
Bruce A. Friend
I am just finishing up a two year stint as Cubmaster of a Pack that has never been
any smaller than 80 Cubs. Over the four years I have been involved with this pack, we have
averaged 100 boys and peaked at about 115. The key is to get parents to buy into the system.
Most of our dens are around 6-8 boys and the DLs are parents. We insisted on two deep
leadership for our dens and some had more. How do you get this buy in? Easy! When more
boys wanted to join we would fill any vacancies that may have developed in existing dens to bring
them to the 6-8 member mark. If we had no vacancies we would tell the boys and their parents
that we would put their names on our waiting list. When we had 6 names on the list we would
invite the parents and their boys to meet with us. We told them that we had enough boys to start
a new den but we needed two volunteers to be DLs. We told them we would train them and be
available to give them a hand getting started. Never failed to get leaders. They might have to
think about it a day or so but someone would take the plunge. Also we tried to make it clear that
this was not commit them to 4 years as a DL. Some moms did not want to be Webelos leaders,
while some dads didn't want to be Wolf/Bear DLs.
The other thing is that you have to have a strong commitee and make plans for everything to work.
We moved a lot of the awards down to the den level. If you don't do that the pack meeting gets
lost in a sea of awards. We gave out special awards as earned. Rank patches were awarded at
den meetings with the appropriate ceremony. We recognized their rank advancment at the Blue &
Gold by performing an advancement ceremony and giving them the mothers pins to wear until they
performed a good deed at which time they were to present it to their mother.
You have to keep the pack meetings organized with plenty of activities for the boys. If they
have nothing to do they will get rowdy. The Cubmaster and his assistants must be prepared to
do silly things. The boys love it when you lead them in a silly song or cheer. A number of these
can be used to fill in those times when someone is not quite ready with their skit or whatever.
Just remember it can be done and everyone including the adults can have fun doing it.
Bruce A. Friend
Cubmaster, Pack 768, Millersville, Md
Christian Jacobi
then I wouldn't know what it is.
Growth feels good for everybody and is also rewarded by the bureaucracy. I
am however afraid of too fast growth. Whatever your current size is, your
organization and leading style is probably influenced by that size. There
is only soo much you can change with limited resources. My pack grew from
41 to 49 within one year. A 20% growth rate has proven easy enough to handle,
but recruiting still scares me. I want long, continuing, and, slow growth, but
it comes in spurs and ignores my whishes. There is just no way that we can
control the recruiting success precise enough. (And, I would never ever turn a
boy down just for the numbers game). I have no idea whether we will continue
to grow at this rate, but I'm theoretically ready to split after the
organization proves to become difficult, without having a number in my mind.
Note the word "after". I have no experience with splitting, but it scares me
to think that I'll have only half as much adult help. Maybe it is easier to
recruit adults after a split because everybody excpects that the unit needs
additional leaders, but that is only speculation.
If you were asking for the ideal den size I could give you more definite
data. I believe a den with 5 boys is almost too small. You can't do certain
games with too small a number. A den with 12 boys is too large and you will
start having discipline problems. But split or not split decisions are
not quite that easy. You need a leader for each new den. You need to
convince the people involved about the split. The last den split
in my pack did cost about 2 months of turmoil for me. The den was too large
at least for a month until all the people involved agreed on it being to
large, and, the new dens did need a month to get their new identity. This
feels short after the fact, but it didn't feel short while it was happening.
Chris
Charley_Renn
In my opinion, 50 - 60 boys is the ideal size for a
pack. I base this opinion on 9 years of involvement in two
different packs. One pack started at 8 boys and grew to 62
at its peak. The other pack was 80 boys when I joined it
and is currently at 72.
I expect a pack to provide two basic functions that
get difficult in a pack larger than 60 boys-- 1) Intimacy:
boys need to belong, and while a den gives a sense of family
and belonging, a pack gives a sense of establishment and
responsibilty that is just as important. A pack that is too
large for the boy to be recognised by most of the parents
looses that intimacy. 2) Recognition: In the large pack I
belong to, the awards are read off by den and handed to the
boys in a baggy.
"Johnny, Bobby, Billy, and Dan earned their
craftsman pin."
"Johnny, Billy, and Dan earned their forester."
"Billy and Dan earned their auquanaut."
"Good job, boys. Go sit down."
The program is designed to give each boy his 15 seconds in
the sun.
"Johnny earned the craftsman and forester pins.
Good job, Johnny. I know you worked hard for
these pins. Tell us what you did to earn your
craftsman pin..... I know I'll see you back up
here next month because you're almost finished
with another pin. Why don't you tell us what
you're working on now?"
I understand that it is difficult to get through the program
when the pack is large and there are a lot of awards to be
handed out. But, rather than moving the awards to the den
level (not the Cub Program), split the pack. The boys deserve
the BSA program-- the way it was designed.
Charley
David Bannon
> In my opinion, 50 - 60 boys is the ideal size for a
Out (not down) here in Australia the max aloowed pack size is 24
Note that this rule is sometimes broken but that is the rule.
David
Jaana A Antikainen
: > In my opinion, 50 - 60 boys is the ideal size for a
: >pack. .....
: Out (not down) here in Australia the max aloowed pack size is 24
: Note that this rule is sometimes broken but that is the rule.
In my opinion, ideal size for a cub aged group that meets together
weekly (called pack here in Finland) is 10-16. Twenty or so can work, or
6-8, but the latter is too small for some games and the former is too
big to get to work together easily. Ideal size for a group that is
divided into smaller groups for weekly meetings and has common campouts
or day trips or such (would be the wolf cub section of a troop here), is
anything between 20-60, depending on how may leaders you can get. I
have noticed that wolf cub girls (age 7-10) require about 1 leader for
5-10 girls on campouts to keep the program running smoothly and get the
leaders some rest too. The rule here is 1 for 10, and in my experience
that is enough if there are about 30 cubs or less, but if there are
more, more leaders than 1 for 10 cubs are needed.
--
Jaana Antikainen------------email: jant...@cc.helsinki.fi---
Iivisniemenkuja 4 F 70---------------------------------------
02260 Espoo----------------"Power corrupts, but we-----------
FINLAND---------------------still need electricity."---------
Dick Knight
jant...@cc.Helsinki.FI (Jaana A Antikainen) wrote:
>David Bannon (D.Ba...@latrobe.edu.au) wrote:
>
>: > In my opinion, 50 - 60 boys is the ideal size for a
>: >pack. .....
>
>: Out (not down) here in Australia the max aloowed pack size is 24
>: Note that this rule is sometimes broken but that is the rule.
>
>In my opinion, ideal size for a cub aged group that meets together
>weekly (called pack here in Finland) is 10-16. Twenty or so can work,
or
>6-8, but the latter is too small for some games and the former is too
>big to get to work together easily. Ideal size for a group that is
>divided into smaller groups for weekly meetings and has common campouts
>or day trips or such (would be the wolf cub section of a troop here),
is
>anything between 20-60, depending on how may leaders you can get. I
>have noticed that wolf cub girls (age 7-10) require about 1 leader for
>5-10 girls on campouts to keep the program running smoothly and get the
>leaders some rest too. The rule here is 1 for 10, and in my experience
>that is enough if there are about 30 cubs or less, but if there are
>more, more leaders than 1 for 10 cubs are needed.
>
This is an interesting thread. In the UK, I understand that the max.
pack size is 36 and that most leaders would say that 24 is ideal.
Our pack has gone through a period of wildly varying numbers over the
last 10 years. We got as low as 8 cubs and as high as 32.
It is my opinion that the ideal pack size is 8 cubs for each leader
up to the max. allowed by your associations rules.
This is not a rule to be obeyed, but a consequential rule. As you
gain committed leaders, they each bring something into the pack: their
own interests, their variation of pack games. This adds the variety to
the pack programme that spirals the recruitment figures upwards.
As leaders drop out, the Cub Scout Leader comes under increasing
pressure, is unable to maintain the variety and control at a pack
meeting and the pack numbers decline.
Campouts and numbers of leaders to cubs is a seperate issue. In UK we
have to have 1 adult for every 6 cubs - but not all the adults need to
be warrented leaders. Parents make great camp helpers, and if you get
them involved in the scouting activities, then you have made a first
step to recruiting your new leaders.
So - "How Big Should the Ideal Pack Be?" is not the right question to
ask. How can the leaders deliver a pack programme filled with variety
and interest that will attract a) more cubs and b) enable the
recruitment of more leaders to keep the pack spiralling upwards. When
you hit the maximum figure for your country, you can always split into
two.
OK Sorry if this is not quite what is expected, but I really feel that
we can all concentrate less on numerical measurements and get on with
delivering quality Scouting around the World.
---
Dick Knight, ACSL, 1st Earl Soham Scout Group
Jaana A Antikainen
: Campouts and numbers of leaders to cubs is a seperate issue. In UK we
: be warrented leaders. Parents make great camp helpers, and if you get
: them involved in the scouting activities, then you have made a first
: step to recruiting your new leaders.
Right, as we said the rule here is 1 for 10 (beginning ten, so you need
2 for 11), and the person can be other adult too, not necessarily a
leader. But since my troop has always had enough cub leaders and we try
to encourage the parents to let the girls to be independent, we have not
had many adult helpers for the last few years - some though, and they
have been an extremely good help. I have to admit that we do some
selecting though: pick a parent who we know or who is a parent of an
older scout helper, not a of a cub to prevent the mothers to stick to
the kids...:) As you probably realized the leaders of wolf cubs are not
typically parents (though this happens too sometimes) but former scouts
of the same unit.
Ian Ford
<every week> unlike BSA. Also the kids are divided into Sixes (dens) of
mixed ages, with an older Sixer (Denner) in charge. Typically there
would be two or three Leaders.
A British Cub Scout meeting would start with flag break (colors) and
inspection , then the program would be a mixture of games , maybe a short
period of instruction on an activity badge or working with Leaders and
helpers on award activities , then a closing.
Also the British program is designed so the Cubs can choose the
activities for their awards. There are also activity badges - a bit like
the Webelos activity pins but open to all ages. More than 36 kids would
be a logistical problem.
In my Pack we have Scouts come along to help with the instruction,
sometimes one or two parents, but mostly just two or three Leaders.
Ian Ford
Asst Group Scout Ldr., 25th Greenwich (Our Lady of Grace) Group
District Committee, Channel District/Transatlantic Council BSA
London UK
Glenn Chokola
>In article <3q56vn$p...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>,
> jant...@cc.Helsinki.FI (Jaana A Antikainen) wrote:
>>David Bannon (D.Ba...@latrobe.edu.au) wrote:
>>
>>: Out (not down) here in Australia the max aloowed pack size is 24
>This is an interesting thread. In the UK, I understand that the max.
>pack size is 36 and that most leaders would say that 24 is ideal.
>Dick Knight, ACSL, 1st Earl Soham Scout Group
This is interesting, our pack is well over 100. In fact next weekend
we are planning a family camping trip with over 150 people. Fun and
some headaches are with the masses.
****************************************************************************
* /\ Glenn Chokola Tiger Cub Coordinator
* / \ Pack 124, Monmouth Council,
* ( / Tinton Falls, New Jersey USA 07753
* \ \
* / *)--> Tinton Falls (Next to Asbury Park)
* / /
* \ /
* //
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