camping merit badge - 20 nights requirement
Armin Doerry
merit badge requirement 9.a. which I copy here as
------
9.a. Camp out a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. (You may use a
week of long-term camp toward this requirement.) Sleep each night under the
sky or in a tent you have pitched.
------
Some questions were raised that seem to not have a clear answer, and no
uniform response from several councilors that were polled. Specifically
1. What exactly is a "long-term camp?" The general consensus of the small
group polled is that a summer camp where the boys live in the same tent for
a week does qualify, but Philmont does not, since the campsite moves. Is
the general consensus nationwide?
2. Does one have to actually pitch the tent used in the "long-term camp?"
or does sleeping in the semi-permanent tents already erected at summer camp
somehow still satisfy this requirement?
3. Suppose you already have a summer camp behind you. Now suppose you live
in a tent for two nights some fall weekend. Presumably this counts as two
more nights for the merit badge (everybody seems to agree). Now presume you
extend the stay to 7 nights. Is this now a "long-term camp" for which no
nights apply to the merit badge?
4. Can a boy count any portion of a second summer camp towards this
requirement?
So, what do you guys (& gals) think? How do you MB councilors out there
handle this?
Thanks in advance for any discussion and/or recommendations.
AD
--
Armin Doerry
ado...@yahoo.com
Victor Radin
Hi Armin,
In our for Camping MB and OA tenting requirements we take that as ONE
week of SCOUT long-term camp. In our council that goes from Sunday to
Saturday, so there's 6 days there. The scouts do not have to pitch the
wall tents, but are required to maintain them (re-rope & tie corrrect
knots). In OUR opinion, Philmont qualifies as a long-term camp, even it
it moves each day, For trips like a week-long to places like boundary
waters, we count each day, up to SIX days. The balance is made of
weekend trips.
Your question in 3 above about extending a campout from 2 days to seven
is a grey area- I'm not sure how we would handle that other than it's
not really likely that we would stay that long without PRIOR planning,
and as such it would then be a long-term trip, altho not always a
long-term camp.
In my troops case, we limit any camping time to ONE week of scout summer
camp. If we go for two weeks, then only the first counts for OA or
Camping MB. If a scout goes for two weeks each year for multiple years,
and NEVER goes on any other troop outings then he CANNOT and DOES NOT
qualify for the camping requirements.
We also STRONGLY suggest (but cannot require) that all camping be done
with the troop or patrol. This is to prevent those boys who have
families that camp from spending time in the big family palace playing
on the gameboy or having a 'junior camper tent' pitched next to the
family winnebago (Please don't laugh, I've HAD that argument this week).
Hope this helps some, or at least doesn't muddy the waters any further.
Vic Radin
Scoutmaster
Troop 12, Evanston, IL
Stephen M. Henning
------
9.a. Camp out a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. (You may use a
week of long-term camp toward this requirement.) Sleep each night under
the sky or in a tent you have pitched.
------
> 1. What exactly is a "long-term camp?" The general consensus of the small
> group polled is that a summer camp where the boys live in the same tent for
> a week does qualify, but Philmont does not, since the campsite moves. Is
> the general consensus nationwide?
Long-Term camp is the council's week long summer camp where the boys do
not set up their own tent. All nights on the trail at Philmont count
since they set up their own tents or sleep under the stars.
> 2. Does one have to actually pitch the tent used in the "long-term camp?"
> or does sleeping in the semi-permanent tents already erected at summer camp
> somehow still satisfy this requirement?
No. That is why there is a limit of only counting one week of it.
> 3. Suppose you already have a summer camp behind you. Now suppose you live
> in a tent for two nights some fall weekend. Presumably this counts as two
> more nights for the merit badge (everybody seems to agree). Now presume you
> extend the stay to 7 nights. Is this now a "long-term camp" for which no
> nights apply to the merit badge?
If you set up the tent, then it counts. You can only count one week of
long-term camp where you don't set up the tent. I think that he should
treat the 7 nights as a collection of several weekend camps so he should
take down and set up the tent every couple days. That should prevent
the long term exclusion from kicking in.
> 4. Can a boy count any portion of a second summer camp towards this
> requirement?
Only if he sleeps in a tent that he repeatedly sets up himself every
couple days. We permit Scouts to have additional tents in their sites
at our camp.
Remember, this is my interpretation of the rules. The Merit Badge
Counselor has final say. He may neither add or delete requirements.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to shen...@fast.net
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning
Hobdbcgv
>week of long-term camp toward this requirement.) Sleep each night under the
>sky or in a tent you have pitched.
Since "long-term camp" can vary widely by area and person, the interpretation
is left to, and is thus, the sole call of the assigned merit badge counselor.
The scout needs to get his MB counselor's requirement for 9a.
1. The MB counselor's role:
You all can decide what you would do, as an intellectual excercise, but it's
the MB counselor's call for that particular scout - only.
Why not hard and fast definitions? First, we are trying to grow leaders,
which are different than managers. One lives by making rules, the other by
making spirit. Very hard to grow leaders if the focus is on following set upon
set upon set of rules.
Second, since there are some parents and leaders who encourage "doing the
minimum for the patch" and "checking the rules" to see what one can get with
the least work, and because trying to "get" a badge by doing the absolute
minimum does not fit the intent or spirit of scouts or the MB system, trying to
hold a counselors feet to the fire over rules interpretations is made
difficult.
The counselor alone is to determine that the scout has satisfactorily"
completed each requirement - while he may not add more requirements, the MB
counselor does get to determine a scout's competency/expertise of the listed
requirements.
2. Re this MB:
Particularely note the requirement is to "camp out", and not merely to sleep
in a tent you pitched. There is a large difference. To fit the requirement's
definition of "camp out", you definitely need to sleep under the stars.....etc.
But if you just sleep in a tent in the backyard, that probably would not be
considered as having camped out, by most counselors I know.
3. That said, in my experience the general rule is that most "long term camps"
are considered to be the council summer camps or like dedicated site, but only
where the tent is left in situ in one campsite for that stay, and potentially
modified by the food/facilities available.
(e.g, if the tent is moved to different campsites -not tentsite- every two
days, and the week is not in a structured camp area, it is not "long term" even
though it is at a council summer camp for a week. But if the tent is moved a
mile every day regularly and every meal is eaten at the mess hall for a week
and the scout follows the camp regimin, it likely will be long term camping
because of the regimin, and if the maid/house-mouse changes sheets daily and
fluffs the 12v airbed, even a daily tent-site change at a council summer camp
would not be called "camping out" at all by others)
>2. Does one have to actually pitch the tent used in the "long-term camp?"
>or does sleeping in the semi-permanent tents already erected at summer camp
>somehow still satisfy this requirement?
MB counselor's call
>Now presume you
>extend the stay to 7 nights. Is this now a "long-term camp" for which no
>nights apply to the merit badge?
Maybe, maybe not - MB counselor's call. Remember that "long-term camp" implies
some camping experiences are missing - mess hall vs outdoor cooking, etc. A
week of open fire cooking and field latrine and boiling water for
drinking/cooking and unstructured time and self-lashed chairs is not likely to
be considered a long term camp, while a week at council summer camp with a mess
hall and structured time and activities, or having the leaders drive up every
other day with cooked food and fresh batteries, probably would
>4. Can a boy count any portion of a second summer camp towards this
>requirement?
Usually not - but if they pitch their own tents and teardown, in some
situations he may get a day and a night.
Depends on the situation. MB counselor's call
IMHO
Brian Elfert
>1. What exactly is a "long-term camp?" The general consensus of the small
>group polled is that a summer camp where the boys live in the same tent for
>a week does qualify, but Philmont does not, since the campsite moves. Is
>the general consensus nationwide?
I would sure hope that a scout has enough camping nights for Camping merit badge before
going to Philmont. Don't most troops require a scout to be 13 and First Class before going
on a high adventure trip?
Brian Elfert
j...@ti.com
Right on Hob.
John "Doc" Holladay
SM T1000
Plano, Tx
j...@ti.com
sure would not take anyone to Philmont who doesn't have sufficient camping
experience.
Most Scouts should have the Camping MB requirements done in the first full
year.
John "Doc" Holladay
SM T1000
Plano, tx
Dave Wakely
First and foremost, this is scouts not a court room. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Second, I'm pretty sure you know if a youth has done enough camping, if not ask them. If you
instill in them the value of accomplishments it will be about the experience not the badge.
Dave Wakely
"I Don't give a fig whether or not a boy wears the uniform as long as his heart is in the right
place"
--BP
Armin Doerry
"Brian Elfert" <bel...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:jqY08.2075$Wf1.6...@ruti.visi.com...
Perhaps, but many councilors insist that camping nights only count 'after'
beginning the MB, regardless of prior camping experience. Consequently it
is conceivable that the first camping nights that count towards the merit
badge are those at Philmont for some scouts.
Armin Doerry
But while it is sensibly the MB councilor's call, it would still seem to be
desirable for a certain level of consistency between MB councilors.....
AD
--
Armin Doerry
ado...@yahoo.com
======================
"Hobdbcgv" <hobd...@aol.comnono> wrote in message
news:20020115102631...@mb-bd.aol.com...
Stephen M. Henning
> Perhaps, but many councilors insist that camping nights only count 'after'
> beginning the MB, regardless of prior camping experience. Consequently it
> is conceivable that the first camping nights that count towards the merit
> badge are those at Philmont for some scouts.
That is adding a requirement and is not permitted. The requirement does
not mention planning and going, just having gone. If a Scoutmaster
insists on sending Scouts to such a MB counselor he is enabling a
problem to occur. We encourage Scoutmasters to be Camping MB
counselors. Then they are counseling the boys from the first minute
they join the Troop. They also have the records to back up the progress
of the Scout.
Brian Elfert
>Perhaps, but many councilors insist that camping nights only count 'after'
>beginning the MB, regardless of prior camping experience. Consequently it
>is conceivable that the first camping nights that count towards the merit
>badge are those at Philmont for some scouts.
Wouldn't this be considered adding to or changing the requirements? I don't see anything in
the requirements that says the camping nights have to be after the merit badge is started.
Heck, the requirements don't even say the camping has to be done with a scout group. When
our scouts do camping merit badge at summer camp, the counselor simply requires a written
note from the Scoutmaster as to the 20 nights requirement.
We had a first year scout who earned the camping merit badge after he was in our troop for
less than 6 months. He went to the counselor on his own, and the counselor counted his
camping wiht his family to meet the 20 nights requirement. Our Scoutmaster was not happy at
all, but there was nothing he could do. The scout had a signed merit badge card.
Brian Elfert
Dan Putman
the form still requires the Scoutmasters signature prior to starting the
Merit Badge.
--
Dan P.
Livonia, MI
Pardon my spam deterrent
"Brian Elfert" <bel...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:TRg18.3084$Wf1.7...@ruti.visi.com...
Armin Doerry
the bigger problem..... (With hundreds of counselors in our council I'm
pretty sure no single person knows the peculiarities of each and every one,
or even met them all)....
There is a somewhat common (apparent) misconception among a number of
counselors (and others) I have spoken to on a variety of merit badges that
work on the merit badge commence 'after' the initial contact with a
counselor. I confess that I was under this delusion myself, although the
issue never came up for me, at least before now. Although, as a result of
the discussion in this newsgroup I fished out my own Merit Badge Counseling
booklet published by BSA and with a quick read-through can't find any
validation of this viewpoint. Being acquainted with the counselors I have
talked to, I'm sure that this viewpoint is mere misconception rather than as
a result of any arrogance or wanting to toughen the requirements beyond
those stated. To my knowledge, these are all good people wanting to do the
right thing, and were likely told wrong themselves.
Unless I find out different (perhaps as a result of more newsgroup
postings), I do intend to go back to the several individuals with whom I
talked earlier and share what I have learned on this point.
I do appreciate the discussion on this point....
AD
"whadaya know, ya learn sumpin new evry day....."
--
Armin Doerry
ado...@yahoo.com
=======================================================
"Dan Putman" <dpu...@twmi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:p0o18.45230$zk4.7...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
br...@iquest.net
<PLq18.200927$IR4.74...@news1.denver1.co.home.com>:
>The short answer is 'yes' but (no disrespect intended) I don't think
>this is the bigger problem..... (With hundreds of counselors in our
>council I'm pretty sure no single person knows the peculiarities of each
>and every one, or even met them all)....
I've been a Camping Merit Badge counselor for over 10 years. I have never
made the boy start over on his 20 nights. I do however ask for
documentation to verify the 20 nights he claims.
Armin Doerry
news:9198E58F9br...@209.43.4.41...
This in fact seems quite reasonable to me.....
--
Armin Doerry
ado...@yahoo.com
j...@ti.com
is Trustworthy? Most of our guys know they don't lie to this old man more than
once - and the third time, I don't sign anything any more for them.
Yea, I know and if there is any doubt I help the Scout remember - some can't
count that high or remember what they did yesterday.
Without integrity nothing else can be trusted.
In our case (only have a troop of only 75 actives) it is pretty easy to know
off of the top of my head who has twenty nights and who doesn't - and then we
do have TroopMaster when old-timers desease creeps in (daily).
I'm being cynical this morning cause I think folks are making a mountain out of
a mole hill.
John "Doc" HOlladay
SM T1000
Plano, Tx
Lyle and Denise McDonald
beginning working on it, how is this adding a requirement? Not being smart,
just asking for clarification.
"Stephen M. Henning" <pig...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:pighash-6F876D...@news7.fast.net...
Stephen M. Henning
> Since the Scout book tells the Scouts that they must get a blue card before
> beginning working on it, how is this adding a requirement? Not being smart,
> just asking for clarification.
The Boy Scout Requirements book states:
The Scout needs a blue card signed by the Scoutmaster before the Scout
sees the merit badge counselor whose name is on the card, nothing more.
The Merit Badge Counselor determines if the Scout "meets the
requirements", nothing more. The counselor ask the Scout to show he
"has done or can do" the things required, nothing more.
Article X of the Rules and Regulations states in part:
"In Boy Scouting, recognition is gained through leadership in the troop,
attending and participating in its activities, living the ideals of
Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful
skills, and career exploration."
It does NOT say to do these things after you get a blue card. The
counselor's job is only to determine that the requirements have been
done or the Scout can do them.
The one caveat that I believe is true is that the requirements must have
been done after the Boy became a Scout, but not just after the blue car
was signed.
I hope this helps.
Bill Lentz
<pig...@aol.com> wrote:
snip
>
>The Boy Scout Requirements book states:
>
>The Scout needs a blue card signed by the Scoutmaster before the Scout
>sees the merit badge counselor whose name is on the card, nothing more.
snip
Hi Steve;
I think I need clarification on this also. Are you saying that if a
scout comes to me with a blue card for personal fitness, and
documentation that he did the exercise program 2 years ago (say as a
part of school P.E. classes or soccer conditioning, etc.), that would
qualify. (i.e. he didn't have to get the blue card before starting
to work on the requirements.)
Thanks
Paul S. Wolf
There's a SPECIFIC rule for Personal Fitness.
Requirement 7 says, in part, "Before beginning your exercises, have the
program approved by your counselor and parents."
So, Unless the PE teacher is the MB Counselor, it might not be
acceptable.
--
Paul S. Wolf, P.E. mailto:pw...@usscouts.org
Advancement/Safety/Awards Webmaster US Scouting Service Project, Inc.
**********************************************************************
U.S. Scouting Service Project, Inc. http://www.usscouts.org
(C) 2001 All Rights Reserved
**********************************************************************
j...@ti.com
requirement and do what it says, wow. No hidden agendas - just straight
forward.
I tell ALL my ASMs and our MB counselors to read the requirement as they test
or just before. Don't depend on what YOU think the requirement is.
Life isn't near as hard when you read the rules and then follow 'em. Not near
as confusing when you don't try to read between the lines.
John "Doc" Holladay
SM T1000
Plano, Tx
Mark
> We had a first year scout who earned the camping merit badge after he was in our troop for
> less than 6 months. He went to the counselor on his own, and the counselor counted his
> camping wiht his family to meet the 20 nights requirement. Our Scoutmaster was not happy at
> all, but there was nothing he could do. The scout had a signed merit badge card.
My son met the camping mb requirements in part by using backpacking
trips that he had done with our family. He had followed the
requirements shown in the book. Why wouldn't this be acceptable?
Mark
Victor Radin
Mark,
I can give you an idea of what is required in my troop, mostly because
as Scoutmaster I'm the one who is asked to provide camping records for
the mb counselors... We **TYPICALLY** do not count family camping
experiences towards any of the scout requirements. Scout requirements
are met with Scout camping experiences. The first and most basic reason
is this: When do you begin counting camping nights with family? My son
has been camping since he was 5 months old- do we count that as tent
nights? If we do not, then when does family camping start to count- by
age? by trip type? how can we determine this fairly across the board?
When one family spends a week backpacking thru Glacier and another sets
up a tent for a week at Jellystone Park- The simple answer is that we
cannot FAIRLY and EQUITABLY give the scouts credits for family trips.
Note that this doesn't mean that it's a 100% rigid and inflexable stand-
The notable exception is one ACTIVE scout that was short a night or two
on Scout trips, and had an **equivilent** family trip (WHILE A MEMBER OF
THE TROOP) then with THAT noted on the message, the time is credited and
the mb counselor is informed of camping nights. It then becomes the
counselor's decision whether to accept or reject the time.
As far as troop records are concerned, if the Scout's activities are not
credited in Troopmaster, it don't count.
Hope this clears up at least some of the "why"
YiS,
Vic Radin,
Scoutmaster Troop 12
Evanston, Illinois
Mark
>
>
> Note that this doesn't mean that it's a 100% rigid and inflexable stand-
> The notable exception is one ACTIVE scout that was short a night or two
> on Scout trips, and had an **equivilent** family trip (WHILE A MEMBER OF
> THE TROOP) then with THAT noted on the message, the time is credited and
> the mb counselor is informed of camping nights. It then becomes the
> counselor's decision whether to accept or reject the time.
>
My son's camping with our family that was credited happened while he was
working on the MB with the troop; it wouldn't have occurred to me to use
nights camping before then. He slept each night in a tent that he
pitched (and carried, since we were on a backpacking trip of 25 miles or
so). Sounds like his case was almost identical to your noted exception.
Thanks for the response,
Mark
Larry__Weiss
> The one caveat that I believe is true is that the requirements must have
> been done after the Boy became a Scout, but not just after the blue car
> was signed.
>
http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/mb/mb001.html
has some interesting commentary about a typo in the "2001 Requirements Book"
that make a substantive difference in the requirements in section 9. Here
is what that webpage says:
Requirement 9(b)6 below, was listed as 9(c) in the 2001 Requirements Book.
The BSA Director of Boy Scout Advancement has indicated that the change
was a typographical error.
Also there is a clarification noted at that webpage about section 6:
A footnote to Requirement 7, reading "May be part of a Troop trip" was in
earlier editions of the Requirements Book, but does not appear in the 2000
edition. However, although not specifically stated in the requirements,
if the troop goes on a trip, and the Patrol method is used (or if there is
only one patrol) that campout can be used to meet requirement 7.
Comments? Or is this "old news" ?
- Larry Weiss, Troop 580, Garland TX
Paul S. Wolf
>
> "Stephen M. Henning" wrote:
> > The one caveat that I believe is true is that the requirements must
> > have been done after the Boy became a Scout, but not just after the
> >
>
> http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/mb/mb001.html
>
> has some interesting commentary about a typo in the "2001 Requirements
> Book" that make a substantive difference in the requirements in
> section 9. Here is what that webpage says:
>
> Requirement 9(b)6 below, was listed as 9(c) in the 2001
> Requirements Book. The BSA Director of Boy Scout Advancement has
> indicated that the change was a typographical error.
>
> Also there is a clarification noted at that webpage about section 6:
>
> A footnote to Requirement 7, reading "May be part of a Troop trip"
> was in earlier editions of the Requirements Book, but does not appear
> in the 2000 edition. However, although not specifically stated in the
> requirements, if the troop goes on a trip, and the Patrol method is
> used (or if there is only one patrol) that campout can be used to meet
> requirement 7.
>
> Comments? Or is this "old news" ?
>
> - Larry Weiss, Troop 580, Garland TX
Those are MY comments, based on conversations I had with (or e-mails
from) the National Director of Boy Scout Advancement. (That's why they
are in a different color font.)
The note about Patrol camping just clarifies the intent of the actual
requirement. The requirement starts "Prepare for an overnight campout
with your patrol ..." A troop campout where the patrol method is used
obviously meets the intent of the requirement.
--
Yours in Scouting,
Paul S. Wolf, PE mailto:PW...@usscouts.org
Advancement/Safety Webmaster http://usscouts.org
***********************************
U.S. Scouting Service Project, Inc.
© 2001 All Rights Reserved
***********************************
Hobdbcgv
>trips that he had done with our family. He had followed the
>requirements shown in the book. Why wouldn't this be acceptable?
The requirement is to show experience in camping by doing several listed items,
one of which is camping 20 days and nights.
There is no requirement that the camping be done with Scouts
- a MB counselor who requires a scout to do the 20 nights only with scouts is
adding a requirment, while the counselor who accepts 20 days of tenting that
does not show/develop experience in camping (e.g., sleeping in backyard tent
with nintendo and eating inside after waking, or going on 20 scout outings
watching adults do the planning, adults selecting cold cooking, adul;td
planning waking hour activities, etc.), is removing a requirement
IMHO.
j...@ti.com
John "Doc" Holladay
SM T1000
Plano, Tx
Larry__Weiss
> Larry__Weiss wrote:
> > has some interesting commentary about a typo in the "2001 Requirements
> > Book" that make a substantive difference in the requirements in
> > section 9. Here is what that webpage says:
> >
> > Requirement 9(b)6 below, was listed as 9(c) in the 2001
> > Requirements Book. The BSA Director of Boy Scout Advancement has
> > indicated that the change was a typographical error.
> >
> from) the National Director of Boy Scout Advancement. (That's why they
> are in a different color font.)
>
Thanks! Your website is excellent...
- Larry Weiss
Larry__Weiss
One that comes to my mind is the weeklong wilderness canoeing
trip that we do each summer. The logistics of having each
patrol manage their food and water individually for that long
a period would be staggering. It definitely is an outing where
it pays to get all patrols to cooperate in a combined effort as a
Troop. All the gear and food goes into the canoes on one
day and it's many days later that we get back out without
any opportunity to add supplies mid-stream.
- Larry Weiss
j...@ti.com
Yes, maybe sometimes we have troop cook but we function by patrols, troop
formations with patrol lines, camp by patrols, and management/leadership is
from the SPL to the PLs.
John "Doc" Holladay
SM T1000
Plano, Tx
Larry__Weiss
> We have complex outings also but the Patrol Method is a must do.
> Yes, maybe sometimes we have troop cook but we function by patrols, troop
> formations with patrol lines, camp by patrols, and management/leadership is
> from the SPL to the PLs.
>
Yes, I understand now. AdultLeaders<--SPL<--PL<--scouts is the chain of
leadership...always.
- Larry Weiss
Dean Ford
in a tent you pitch for 20 night nights you qualify! You can apply 1 week
of summer camp to the total but no more (probably BECAUSE you don't pitch
the tent). Don't try to fudge with repeat summer camp stays because you are
missing the point of the tent pitching experience. Scouting is a skills
building program and setting up and breaking down camp is part of that.
Philmont might not qualify as a "long term camp" but would apply to the
total 20 because you are constantly moving so if you spend 10 nights moving
camp at Philmont, count ten nights. Any other high adventure base you
attend would apply if you are pitching your tent but not if you sleep in
pre-pitched camp tents (beyond the 1 week allowance). If weather permits
you don't need the tent to qualify. I know scouts that prefer hammocks in
summer and that fine. For that matter, camping in survival shelters built
by scouts, snow caves or any type of "scout built" shelter counts because it
is camping where the scout builds/erects his own shelter.
I believe there is latitude in the program for the scout leader to interpret
what qualifies for activities as not everything is available everywhere but
maintain the spirit and you can always find opportunities to fulfill
requirements.
Anybody disagree with this philosophy?
Dean Ford
Venturing Crew 444/Cub Pack 530
Great Smokey Mountain Council
"Armin Doerry" <ado...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d9P08.200924$IR4.74...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...
> There has been some discussion in our troop recently concerning the
camping
> merit badge requirement 9.a. which I copy here as
>
> ------
> 9.a. Camp out a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. (You may use a
> week of long-term camp toward this requirement.) Sleep each night under
the
> sky or in a tent you have pitched.
> ------
>
> Some questions were raised that seem to not have a clear answer, and no
> uniform response from several councilors that were polled. Specifically
>
> 1. What exactly is a "long-term camp?" The general consensus of the
small
> group polled is that a summer camp where the boys live in the same tent
for
> a week does qualify, but Philmont does not, since the campsite moves. Is
> the general consensus nationwide?
>
> 2. Does one have to actually pitch the tent used in the "long-term camp?"
> or does sleeping in the semi-permanent tents already erected at summer
camp
> somehow still satisfy this requirement?
>
> 3. Suppose you already have a summer camp behind you. Now suppose you
live
> in a tent for two nights some fall weekend. Presumably this counts as two
> more nights for the merit badge (everybody seems to agree). Now presume
you
> extend the stay to 7 nights. Is this now a "long-term camp" for which no
> nights apply to the merit badge?
>
> 4. Can a boy count any portion of a second summer camp towards this
> requirement?
>
> So, what do you guys (& gals) think? How do you MB councilors out there
> handle this?
>
> Thanks in advance for any discussion and/or recommendations.
Vic Radin
>
<<<snippage>>>
>
> I believe there is latitude in the program for the scout leader to interpret
> what qualifies for activities as not everything is available everywhere but
> maintain the spirit and you can always find opportunities to fulfill
> requirements.
>
> Anybody disagree with this philosophy?
>
> Dean Ford
Actually, the only thing I would expand on is that for the purposes of
the merit badge (or OA election), the camping be done as Scout
functions. No nights in the backyard, no state parks with mom & dad,
Troop recognized activities only. We track camping nights using
Troopmaster, and that is the final arbiter of time served or nights out.
For each scout wanting a blue card for camping merit badge, we print out
a camping history. Special situations are noted, such as cabin nights,
wilderness shelters, long-term, and left for the interpretation of the
MB counselor.
We have scouts that use hammocks, bivvies, etc... still counts no matter
what the shelter or lack thereof- if it's a scout-pitched or scout-made
shelter, it works.
I do agree that 'not everything is available everywhere'... I wish I
could require a couple of nights in the mountains- just ain't gonna
happen for a weekend trip in northern Illinois. But we do get the
council-sponsored trips out of summer camp to places like the Porupines,
or Flambeau, and even tho it's a 'part' of the overall summer camp time,
it's not a long-term camp as it moves every night.
Vic Radin
Scoutmaster, Troop 12
Northeast Illinois Council
Robert L. Haar
"Vic Radin" <vra...@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:3C81901C...@ameritech.net...
> Dean Ford wrote:
> >
> > I believe there is latitude in the program for the scout leader to interpret
> > what qualifies for activities as not everything is available everywhere but
> > maintain the spirit and you can always find opportunities to fulfill
> > requirements.
> >
> > Anybody disagree with this philosophy?
>
> the merit badge (or OA election), the camping be done as Scout
> functions. No nights in the backyard, no state parks with mom & dad,
> Troop recognized activities only.
Vic,
I believe that you are adding requirements when you insist that the 20
nights of camping be done at "Scout functions." The actual wording in
the 2002 Requirements book is:
"Show experience in camping by doing the following:
(a) Camp a total of at least 20 days and nights. ..."
Other requirements specific patrol activities, but this one does not.
From this, I understand the requirement to focus on the skill development
that comes from actual doing the camping. Whether or not this is done
at a formal patrol or troop event is irrelevant.
However, if a scout wants to count family camping, as the merit badge
counselor, I do insist on details that convince me that he did pitch the
tent or erect the shelter that was used and that he had a 'real' camping
experience. Staying in a lodge at a National Park is not sufficient, not
is watching Dad put up the tent. It is the scouts responsibility to convince
me that his camping experience is adequate.
In my opinion, as long as the scout meets the letter of the requirements and
has learned the specified skills, he has earned the merit badge.
--
Bob Haar email: rlh...@comcast.net
ASM, BSA Troop 188, Rochester Hills, Michigan
Objiwa District Advancement Committee
Clinton Valley Council
J. Hugh Sullivan
wrote:
>Here is my interpretation of this rule. If you camp out 20 days and sleep
>in a tent you pitch for 20 night nights you qualify! You can apply 1 week
>of summer camp to the total but no more (probably BECAUSE you don't pitch
>the tent). Don't try to fudge with repeat summer camp stays because you are
>missing the point of the tent pitching experience. Scouting is a skills
>building program and setting up and breaking down camp is part of that.
>Philmont might not qualify as a "long term camp" but would apply to the
>total 20 because you are constantly moving so if you spend 10 nights moving
>camp at Philmont, count ten nights. Any other high adventure base you
>attend would apply if you are pitching your tent but not if you sleep in
>pre-pitched camp tents (beyond the 1 week allowance). If weather permits
>you don't need the tent to qualify. I know scouts that prefer hammocks in
>summer and that fine. For that matter, camping in survival shelters built
>by scouts, snow caves or any type of "scout built" shelter counts because it
>is camping where the scout builds/erects his own shelter.
>
>I believe there is latitude in the program for the scout leader to interpret
>what qualifies for activities as not everything is available everywhere but
>maintain the spirit and you can always find opportunities to fulfill
>requirements.
>
>Anybody disagree with this philosophy?
I would except I don't have my guide books here. I agree with the last
paragraph except, one can not ADD to the requirements which, as well
as I remember, you have done.
The requirements might have changed, in which case Paul or Steve will
correct me, but I don't recall that a tent always has to be pitched or
a shelter always built. I don't recall that any of the nights have to
be Scout related. Does it say "long-term SCOUT camp" for example?
OTOH summer Scout camp and the monthly troop campout make it almost
impossible NOT to accumulate 20 nights in less than a year.
Sixty years ago 10 of the nights had to be WITHOUT an "erector set".
We hiked a couple of miles to a grassy area and camped. I think we had
a hatchet, knife, canteen and flashlight on our belts. I think the
dirt has hardened since then because natural beds are not nearly so
soft now.
Hugh
E. Randy Spradling
Interesting question, the definition of a "long-term camp." Went to the 2000
edition of The Scoutmaster Handbook (the one you need to put in your own 3-ring
binder). Not much direct help there, but it does define a "short-term camp:"
Short-term camping includes any Scout camping of less than five nights and six
days.
Camping MB Requirement 9a has stayed fairly consistent throughout Scouting, and
is intended to force the Troop program outdoors whether the leaders like to or
not (whole other issue that points toward proper programming and advancement -
if you are not willing to get with the program then there's the door).
Based on my past history (Eagle Scout when Camping MB was required) I would
interpret long-term camping as follows:
Any camping trip that exceeds five nights and six days conducted as a Troop or
Patrol trip, whether the unit camps at a stationary base camp (typical summer
camp or Jamboree experience), or whether they strike camp and relocate (e.g.,
Philmont or other backpacking trip) would qualify as a "long-term camp" for
purposes of both OA qualification and the Camping merit badge requirements.
This does not mean camping in cabins or the backs of station wagons. I know
that some folks' idea of "roughing it" means the motel doesn't have HBO, but we
are supposed to be an outdoor group.
Although 9a says that the Scout is supposed to "sleep each night under the sky
or in a tent you have pitched," I believe the interpretation should give the
benefit to the Scout and give him credit for the long-term camp whether he
pitched the tent himself or the tent in which he is sleeping is in one of those
semi-permanent set-ups like at many camps.
Of course, I have also been to summer camps where the Scouts had to set up the
tents on Sunday and strike them on Saturday just to shut up those who would be
overzealous in the interpretation of the Camping MB requirements. We did this
when I took Wood Badge in the mid-1990's.
If the Scoutmaster knows 9a is such a universal issue with Camping MB
counselors, he could suggest to the SPL that the tents should be struck as soon
as they hit camp, and re-pitched.
Another thing to keep in mind with high adventure caqmping trips like Philmont,
the Scout is supposed to have mastered his Scoutcraft skills before going. The
Scout must be at least 14 yrs old, and IIRC First Class. I could be wrong - my
literature didn't have that information in a convenient location.
Point is, before a Scout can go to Philmont, he will have had:
One overnight to satisfy Tenderfoot requirements 2 and 3;
At least two separate overnight camping trips to satisfy all parts of Second
Class requirement 2; and
At least three more separate overnight camping trips to satisfy requirements 3
and parts of 4 for First Class.
Now, some may say that some overlap may be allowed. Even with that, most
shor-term camping trips last two nights (typically Friday and Saturday night)
because a one-nighter just doesn't give time for either the troop leadership to
teach or to allow the Scout to properly demonstrate his Scoutcraft skills That
would be a bare minimum of six nights right there.
Since many troops that have an active outdoor program have about 8 camping
trips each year, that would mean the Scout will likely satisfy Camping MB 9a by
the time he reaches First Class, and will have both the short- and long-term
experience needed to satisfy the OA camping requirements.
A properly run Troop program will make sure that the Scout gets out to the
weekend troop camping trips so that the question of whether to allow the second
long-term camp to be counted is moot. If all goes well, the 20 days will
likely be met well before the second camp.
I know that was a long hike to the destination I wish to offer, but here it is:
IMHBCO the two qualifiers are duration of the trip and whether the Scouts
slept "outdoors" and not in a cabin or car. All else is adult quibbling that
does not serve the spirit of 9a and is not beneficial to the Scout. This ain't
the military - it's Scouting!
Randy Spradling
Unit Commissioner
Dan Beard Council
E. Randy Spradling
<SNIP>
>OTOH summer Scout camp and the monthly troop campout make it almost
>impossible NOT to accumulate 20 nights in less than a year.
>
campaign hat is off to you!
I also agree with what you said earlier that a MB counselor can't ADD to the
requirements.
>Sixty years ago 10 of the nights had to be WITHOUT an "erector set".
>We hiked a couple of miles to a grassy area and camped. I think we had
>a hatchet, knife, canteen and flashlight on our belts. I think the
>dirt has hardened since then because natural beds are not nearly so
>soft now.
>
Yeah, and we had to lug those Ten Ton Tessies made out of canvas if we didn't
want to sleep under the open sky, too. You forgot to mention that the ground
seems to have more tree roots in it than when we were Scouts. The trail also
went uphill both ways, but we didn't care about that back then, did we? :)
Sounds like your and my Scouting experiences are similar, despite there being
about 30 years between them. I saw the first major program change in years
back in 1973 toward the end of my youth career in Scouting. I thought it would
be "the end of Scouting," but the program survived with some reversions to the
old ways with a few modern twists. I'm glad my son is going through the
program at this stage of life, rather than back in the 1970s or 80s.
Vic Radin
Bob,
I agree with you, in principle (and mostly in practice). I merely
provide the blue card when the scout asks, and a printout of his troop
camping time, wheteher it's 10, 15, or 50 nights. As relates to Camping
MB, I will not issue a blue card for any scout that has NOT camped with
the troop at all (yes, I've been asked). If the scout can convince the
counselor that family camping experiences are adequate and appropriate,
then that's the counselor's decision.
The unfortunate part in this is that I've seen too many abuses of
'camping nights' in my area, with some sign-offs on scouts that use
cabin nights (it still says tent or stars, right?), the family's luxury
land yacht at jellystone park, and even backyard nights (we're in a
CITY, let's at least TRY to keep it real).
Sorry about the little rant- I do agree with you, when the scout meets
the requirements, has learned the skills and has demonstrated them, then
he gets the badge. As I said, a counselor's decision- and as Scoutmaster
I depend on counselors like you, who may want convincing of those
"family camp nights" to maintain a standard of skills learned.
YiS,
J. Hugh Sullivan
wrote:
I'm certainly not averse to sophisticated changes. Where we had lots
of space close by, lots of firewood and minimal equipment, the same
abilities can be learned with light-weight tents and motoring to a
site. Tents with floors are better than trusting a trench around the
army surplus tent halves to drain rain water. And mummy sleeping bags
are more comfortable in 15 degree weather than layers of heavy
clothing and lots of blankets. But mosquitos and most bugs are on
steroids now.
The program can't be quite the same for the kid in Harlem as the kid
who lives in a rural Southern area where the population of the entire
county is less than 20,000. It can't be the same for the kid whose dad
works for Bill Gates as the one who lives with his divorced or widowed
mom who clerks at Wal-Mart to eke out a living.
Where our longest trip was 78 miles to summer camp, one grandson has
Scouted in more than 20 states and Canada. I didn't know what a
Philmont was until I earned my arrowhead at age 50 - our two oldest
grandsons hiked the trail at minimum age. They learned to swim at the
Y and I learned to swim upstream of the outhouse at my grandmother's.
Some troops allow CDs at campouts - we popped bubble gum and yelled
My grandsons are/were in troops of the late 90s to date, my sons in
the 70s and me in the early 40s. Except for individual talents I see
little difference in our abilities to cope with the world in which we
live. However, we spend more for Scouting on one grandson in 1 year
than I cost my parents for my entire career as a Scout.
When you come right down to it, I expect peer pressure Scouts feel
nowadays is much tougher than walking 1 mile to and from school,
"uphill" both ways as I did. It's easier for most people to be
physically tough than mentally tough.
The "good old days" are happening right now for our kids.
Hugh
Dean Ford
does not have to be "built" hence the reference to the hammocks. Although
I reference scout camps by no means do you have to use scout "camps" for
activities. If you want to take a group of scouts out and hike the
Appalachain Trial feel free to do so. I intentionally did not touch the
subject of using family camping as this is up to the individual leader.
Some family camping expeditions are probably at least as rigorous a camping
experience as any scout organized function but some aren't so that is where
the latitude of the scout leader comes into play. I think we all agree that
20 nights at the Holiday Inn does not qualify one for a camping MB.
I have not seen any of the guide books you mention but I will look around
for them as they sound interesting. In the mean time I will continue to
camp with scouts and pass on whatever skills are necessary to do so. By
"erector set" I assume you mean the new framed tents which are standard
camping gear now. Yes, scouts need to know how to erect and anchor them as
well. Technology is changing and we have to keep kids up-to-date with it.
Compasses are the standard in orienteering but it's becoming more important
to undersand how to read a GPS too. There is room for both. By the fact
you are reading this news group I assume you are still a scout leader (one
of those with the latitude) so go on teaching all those skills you value in
scouting and exercise your authority to decide what YOUR scouts need to do
to qualify for MBs.
Dean
"J. Hugh Sullivan" <su...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:3c823c23...@news.cis.dfn.de...
J. Hugh Sullivan
wrote:
>I dont' think we are that far apart on this one, Hugh. I agree a shelter
>does not have to be "built" hence the reference to the hammocks.
I'll buy that.
>I have not seen any of the guide books you mention but I will look around
>for them as they sound interesting. In the mean time I will continue to
>camp with scouts and pass on whatever skills are necessary to do so.
I suggest we pass them based on the precise requirements but teach
them everything they need to know. I believe that is your point. The
requirements are often minimal and it's up to us to make good Scouts
outstanding.
>By "erector set" I assume you mean the new framed tents which are standard
>camping gear now. Yes, scouts need to know how to erect and anchor them as
>well. Technology is changing and we have to keep kids up-to-date with it.
>Compasses are the standard in orienteering but it's becoming more important
>to undersand how to read a GPS too. There is room for both. By the fact
>you are reading this news group I assume you are still a scout leader (one
>of those with the latitude) so go on teaching all those skills you value in
>scouting and exercise your authority to decide what YOUR scouts need to do
>to qualify for MBs.
>Dean
Oh yes - I'm registered. However that is obviously not a prerequisite
to participate.
Hugh