Wood Badge and Diversity
Rick Tyler
curriculum, and it was a wonderful experience. I recommend it to any
Scouter, and especially to unit leaders.
One of the presentations was on diversity in Scouting. The instructor
made the point that Scouting is still largely a white suburban/rural
activity. Even around here, which is a pretty racially diverse area,
nearly all the faces you see at camp or at other gatherings are white.
I agree that Scouting could do a better job at serving *all* the boys
in the country, and that it is a Good Thing that someone is working on
it.
We were instructed to include a ticket item focused on diversity, or
include something to do with enhancing diversity in Scouting within a
ticket item. I have three blind people in my family and so would have
included something about Scouting for disabled boys in my ticket
anyway, but I am curious why there is *so* much focus on it in the
Wood Badge class.
Anyone reading r.s.u. know about the genesis of this part of Wood
Badge want to comment about why this is the *only* specific item that
is called out in the requirements for the ticket? Teaching boys to
make ethical choices as adults is the number one goal of the BSA --
why isn't something like that included as a mandatory ticket element?
Why aren't any of the other important aims of Scouting included as
required elements?
(Incidentally, the use of "soccer mom" in a response to this post is
not welcome. You might as well say "the Nazis wanted it that way.")
Yours in Scouting,
Rick Tyler
ASM, Troop 571
Chief Seattle Council
Kelly Parker
I think if you look at the history of the BSA, there has always been
a lot of effort expended toward recruiting minority Scouts and leaders.
I don't think it has always been what we would view today as politically
correct, especially with the segregated troops and packs prior to the
1960's. I'm no expert--I think Col. Walton can really quote the chapter
and verse on the subject of Scouts and integration.
Howsomever, my thinking is that BSA can use all the help it can get
on how to get more urban, and more immigrant Scouts into the program. In
my area, the schools are 60% or more Hispanic and it is very difficult
to recruit. I've used fliers in Spanish, but it is hard to get across
what Cub Scouts is all about with just a flier. We contact so many
schools that individual room Boy Talks are out.
There are a lot of cultural differences, as well. Typically,
Hispanic involvement means that the mom and all siblings attend as well.
The boys who are Cubs will go be part of the Den meeting, and the rest
will run around playing. Camping for some families is rather an odd
idea--when you risked your life to come from a place that had dirt
floors, no sewer or running water, and so forth.
I would really appreciate suggestions and materials that have worked
for readers of this. I am in the process of rebuilding a Cub Pack, and
coudl use ideas.
YiS--
Kelly Parker COR, UC, Training Poohbah, and whatever else I volunteered
for
Phoenix, AZ Grand Canyon Council
John Gezelius
> I would really appreciate suggestions and materials that have worked
>for readers of this. I am in the process of rebuilding a Cub Pack, and
>coudl use ideas.
I can appreciate your efforts. Here in Orange County we have both a large
Hispanic and a large Vietnamese population. I'd approach the priests /
ministers att he appropriate churches, make an appointment, and then thell him
what you're trying to do. You'll gain access to the kids, which you may not
receive fromt he schools and you may also enlist his assistance in making the
pitch to the parents.
John Gezelius
Orange, California
I am he as you are he as we are altogether
wrote:
>(Incidentally, the use of "soccer mom" in a response to this post is
>not welcome. You might as well say "the Nazis wanted it that way.")
No, it isn't the soccer moms, it's the social Nazis who believe that
everyone is the same and that all things are for all people. Our
biologies may be similar but that's about all there is.
People tend to like to stick with people like them. How they define
"like them" varies from group to group but that's how we group.
Chinese immigrants don't find much in common with members of the DAR.
A black who went to prep school has more in common with white guys
named Biff than he does with brothers from the hood.
My troop and pack aren't very diverse because probably only 10% of the
local population is black and even less is Oriental. However in other
parts of my county there are Korean troops, Vietnamese troops, Chinese
troops, Jewish troops, and even Black troops. I don't know of any
predominately Latin units but I'm sure they exist.
Is this right? Is this wrong? It is neither, it simply is.
J. Hugh Sullivan
wrote:
>I just finished the second weekend of Wood Badge. I approve of the
>curriculum, and it was a wonderful experience. I recommend it to any
>Scouter, and especially to unit leaders.
>
>One of the presentations was on diversity in Scouting. The instructor
>made the point that Scouting is still largely a white suburban/rural
>activity.
I think there are several reasons we don't find much diversity in BSA.
1. The SM is usually a WASP (or Catholic) and runs his troop based on
his successful methods. That means youth should adapt to his methods
or choose to join another troop. And I see BSA in a number of areas,
mostly in the South.
2. In a volunteer group I think the tendency is for like-minded people
to band together - with the exception of sports teams. In a group of
multiple cultures the cultures tend to clique. Even those who drive
sporty cars don't "hang" with those who drive Broncos or pickemups. We
are most comfortable with people from our own "neighborhood".
If you are a WASP:
1. Does your son want to join a troop that is mostly Catholic, Jewish
or Mormon? Or, does he not make any distinction except he wants in the
troop with his friends - who happen to be WASPs also. And
vice-versa.....
2. When you walk into the cafeteria (break room) do you sit at the
table where the blacks are grouped together or with the whites who
also sit together?
If you are an executive, how often do you play golf at the Country
Club with the kid in the stockroom - probably not even in the company
golf league. We played bridge every noon before I retired - my partner
and I won consistently against all comers. I was never comfortable
when the CEO sat down to play against us. Maybe we SHOULD have lost a
time or two.
We had dinner at the Country Club about 10 days ago and an Oriental
family was sitting together. They didn't mix or speak to others who
didn't mix or speak with them. If a black plays golf it's usually with
other blacks.
Possibly what separates us most is our ideologies. It's probably best
if liberals and conservatives, gun control and NRA people, hunters and
members of PETA, abortionists and Catholics, even rebs and yankees
don't get together - unless they want to rumble. None of those have to
do with race and only the latter is about culture.
Even the government causes dissention in diverse groups. We pass
anti-discrimination legislation and then pass affirmative action
legislation which is about as discriminatory as it gets. How would all
you white people out there enjoy being told that you are too stupid to
compete with blacks unless you are given a handicap? We may not be
able to compete with the Asians.
Caremark in San Antonio gets almost half of our prescription orders
wrong. They send them to the wrong address, they note that my wife is
allergic to certain drugs and send them anyhow. I've reported them to
the Texas State Pharmacy Board 3 times and it doesn't get any better.
I think it's because their native language is not English. Guess what
conclusion I'm tempted to draw about all Mexicans.
Many of us don't have time to overcome these problems, many of us get
disgusted trying to overcome them, and some aren't going to try in the
first place. If you aren't one of those, rots o ruck. 8-)
You may argue the right and wrong of the above, but you can't ignore
the reality.
Hugh
cwg
"Rick Tyler" <rht...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:sk28fu4kker5qr8mr...@4ax.com...
> We were instructed to include a ticket item focused on diversity, or
> include something to do with enhancing diversity in Scouting within a
> Anyone reading r.s.u. know about the genesis of this part of Wood
> Badge want to comment about why this is the *only* specific item that
> is called out in the requirements for the ticket?
I don't know the origin of the diversity requirement. But, one way to
explore your question is to put on our cynic's glasses and ask: What does
BSA have to gain by presenting the public appearance of being a diverse
organization? And conversely: How is BSA hurt by being perceived as a
non-diverse organization?
I'm not saying BSA's motives are totally cynical, but it never hurts to
consider that angle when wondering why things are the way they are.
Amgine Neilson
J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
> Many of us don't have time to overcome these problems, many of us get
> disgusted trying to overcome them, and some aren't going to try in the
> first place. If you aren't one of those, rots o ruck. 8-)
>
> You may argue the right and wrong of the above, but you can't ignore
> the reality.
Mr. Sullivan,
In the break room I try to sit with a different group daily, to stretch
my (and their) comfort zones. Some times we eat in silence, but with a
growing number of "cliques" we joke and get pretty rowdy.
On group campouts, I circulate. I try to find something to ask about,
something I can learn or don't understand (which is all too easy....
*sigh*) And I usually make a bee-line to the quietest or most insular
part of the camp.
My reality is that radically "opposed" groups have a lot more in common
than in opposition. I take inspiration from a tea group in Portland. On
one side were the women organizers (and wives of organizers) of
petitions opposed to homosexuals. The other side were lesbian activists.
After a year, the petition organizers chose not to continue their
petition drive. And the activists did not push their legislative agenda.
And they're still meeting for tea, 8 years later. They do not agree, but
they are civil to each other because they could no longer demonize each
other; they know each other too well.
Will this kind of solo effort ever get over the deep divides in the BSA?
Probably not. But giving up without an effort is a terribly defeatist
viewpoint which I cannot sit with. And I learn a lot on campouts, too.
--
Amgine Neilson
Earth Scouts Forum Admin
http://paganinstitute.org/earthscouts/adults/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi
J. Hugh Sullivan
<JAmgine...@netscape.net> wrote:
>J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>
>> Many of us don't have time to overcome these problems, many of us get
>> disgusted trying to overcome them, and some aren't going to try in the
>> first place. If you aren't one of those, rots o ruck. 8-)
>>
>> You may argue the right and wrong of the above, but you can't ignore
>> the reality.
>
>Mr. Sullivan,
>
>In the break room I try to sit with a different group daily, to stretch
>my (and their) comfort zones. Some times we eat in silence, but with a
>growing number of "cliques" we joke and get pretty rowdy.
How can we tell whether you sit with a different group daily because
you choose to or because you are forced to? 8-)
I think it's fine for you to stretch your comfort zone. A lot of
people prefer to talk about common interests and NOT stretch their
comfort zone.
>My reality is that radically "opposed" groups have a lot more in common
>than in opposition. I take inspiration from a tea group in Portland. On
>one side were the women organizers (and wives of organizers) of
>petitions opposed to homosexuals.
I understand that could easily happen in Portland OR, Frisco or most
anywhere in the northeast.. It's not likely many places east of the MS
and south of the OH Rivers. And probably not in TX, LA and AR either.
It's much more peaceful if a liberal doesn't try to discuss politics,
sex or religion with me - football, fishing, golf, hobby collections,
military and a few other subjects are fine.
>Will this kind of solo effort ever get over the deep divides in the BSA?
I suspect it already has in some places. I suspect it never will in
others. I think your deep divides exist on news groups. I don't see
any divides in the several states I visit.
>Probably not. But giving up without an effort is a terribly defeatist
>viewpoint which I cannot sit with.
Being an activist for change is something many others will not live
with. I gather from your post that you plan to impose your philosophy
on anyone who will listen because you are convinced that your way is
the only way. I expect it's right for you - but that right ends where
another person's nose starts.
Some will be in your face about it and others will control your
strings like an unseen puppeteer and you'll just wonder why you never
get ahead.
Hugh
jim sammons
the confederate flag, encourage his "hired help" to work harder so they too
can own his mule and 40 acres someday..........as long as they "know their
place" that is.......cant get "uppity" ya know.......
hugh is an embarasment to true modern,well educated, southern
gentelmen...........and scouting as far as i am concerned.............
big jim
I am he as you are he as we are altogether
<sam...@machlink.com> wrote:
>big jim
It is a given that anyone who needs to apply the adjective "big" to
their moniker are small in more ways than one.
J. Hugh Sullivan
<sam...@machlink.com> wrote:
I find it most interesting that I never hear any of my peers say that
- only society's misfits and jokes.
I accept the charge of not being "modern" - in fact, I'm rather proud
of it.
The mere fact that you are not aware of the [shift] key on your
keyboard identifies you as an illiterate.
Based on your number of periods, I'd say you suffer from PMS.
Now, if you still don't have anything to contribute, would you bray a
little quieter?
Hugh
Amgine Neilson
J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>>My reality is that radically "opposed" groups have a lot more in common
>>than in opposition.
<in a different message Mr. Sullivan wrote:>
> I accept the charge of not being "modern" - in fact,
> I'm rather proud of it.
I guess I'm generally opposed to "modern" society as well. And I pride
myself on my "low-tech" skills and experiences. Having some familiarity
with guidelines of ettiquette, I would not generally bring up topics
likely to cause disagreement, especially with my elders.
> I think it's fine for you to stretch your comfort zone. A lot of
> people prefer to talk about common interests and NOT stretch their
> comfort zone.
Thank you. I do try to talk about common interests, but with people from
a variety of different ethnic, religous, political, and other
backgrounds as well as my own. My efforts probably have more effect on
me than the people I speak with; it erodes my sense of separation, the
"us and them" identification.
No one can convince another to stretch their comfort zone, and it would
be rude in the extreme to suggest it. Unless, of course, you happen to
hold a position of responsibility in an organization which requires it.
It sounds to me like the BSA is putting forth a major effort to continue
to expand its support of ethnic diversity, which is a laudable goal to
bring excellent opportunities for boys to communities who might
currently feel unaccepted in Scouting. In part that effort is to ask SMs
(and undoubtedly others) to stretch their comfort zones, to recruit from
a variety of ethnic backgrounds and to work with local communities.
> It's much more peaceful if a liberal doesn't try to discuss politics,
> sex or religion with me - football, fishing, golf, hobby collections,
> military and a few other subjects are fine.
I'm not sure if I'd characterize myself as liberal... Those three
subjects are not ones I would be interested in discussing in public, or
with someone I do not know well. The things I would most be interested
in hearing from you are more along the campfire stories vein, but I also
enjoy your insights on many topics.
> Being an activist for change is something many others will not live
> with.
I'm not an activist for change. I'm an opinionated person who is willing
to share that opinion with others, much like yourself. My philosophies
are hopelessly riddled with errors, and are constantly adapting and
changing to fit what I perceive as a more logical world view. I believe
my way is the "right" way for me, until I find out I'm wrong and there's
a better way; then I do it that way.
I try very hard not to tell people to do what I do. I also try very hard
to say what I do works for me, with the obvious implication it might
work for others. It is the difference between coercion and persuasion.
> Some will be in your face about it and others will control your
> strings like an unseen puppeteer and you'll just wonder why you never
> get ahead.
I rather doubt this. Your view presumes the goal is change of a program
or society or corporation. My focus is to get to know people where I am,
to prevent barriers developing between us and to overcome those which
already exist. The former is happening, the latter is how I adapt to
change. The program, society, or corporation is going to have to fend
for itself, which it is doing quite handily.
J. Hugh Sullivan
<JAmgine...@netscape.net> wrote:
>I guess I'm generally opposed to "modern" society as well. And I pride
>myself on my "low-tech" skills and experiences. Having some familiarity
>with guidelines of ettiquette, I would not generally bring up topics
>likely to cause disagreement, especially with my elders.
I rarely initiate a confrontational exchange on news groups; the
exception is a subject of long-standing which is more or less
continuous. However, I pull no punches when responding to someone else
who initiates.
> > I think it's fine for you to stretch your comfort zone. A lot of
> > people prefer to talk about common interests and NOT stretch their
> > comfort zone.
>
>Thank you. I do try to talk about common interests, but with people from
>a variety of different ethnic, religous, political, and other
>backgrounds as well as my own. My efforts probably have more effect on
>me than the people I speak with; it erodes my sense of separation, the
>"us and them" identification.
I actually prefer the "us and them" identification. I like winners and
losers. I have no interest in the ethnicity of others and no interest
in politics which differ from mine. In the instance of politics I am
as capable of evaluation as almost anyone and those who have facts
that I have not considered in arriving at my conclusions aren't found
very often on BSA news groups.
>No one can convince another to stretch their comfort zone, and it would
>be rude in the extreme to suggest it. Unless, of course, you happen to
>hold a position of responsibility in an organization which requires it.
I did have a responsible position at my company. I insisted on
diversity at work. I hired blacks, women with college degrees
including advanced degrees and the religious makeup of Catholic and
Protestant essentially reflected the makeup of the community. I did
that before it was PC. I was not interested in diversity after hours.
>It sounds to me like the BSA is putting forth a major effort to continue
>to expand its support of ethnic diversity, which is a laudable goal to
>bring excellent opportunities for boys to communities who might
>currently feel unaccepted in Scouting. In part that effort is to ask SMs
>(and undoubtedly others) to stretch their comfort zones, to recruit from
>a variety of ethnic backgrounds and to work with local communities.
With the exception of the south prior to integration, the BSA has
always supported the tolerance of ethnic diversity. The difference is
that diversity is the buzz word now and it was not back in the 30s and
40s. Every pseudo-intellectual uses it often.
>I'm not sure if I'd characterize myself as liberal... Those three
>subjects are not ones I would be interested in discussing in public, or
>with someone I do not know well. The things I would most be interested
>in hearing from you are more along the campfire stories vein,
There are too many stories and they require too many words to tell.
Some of the others here can fill that void admirably.
>but I also enjoy your insights on many topics.
I appreciate that. On rare occasions I take a recess from
confrontation. I can be as friendly as anyone or as harsh - I just
have no middle ground.
I have had considerable success in industry, the Navy, Scouts and a
slew of community organizations that I have chaired. I seldom read
anything here that I have not solved before.
>I'm not an activist for change. I'm an opinionated person who is willing
>to share that opinion with others, much like yourself. My philosophies
>are hopelessly riddled with errors, and are constantly adapting and
>changing to fit what I perceive as a more logical world view. I believe
>my way is the "right" way for me, until I find out I'm wrong and there's
>a better way; then I do it that way.
I differ in that I am satisfied that I have most of the answers that
work in the areas where I am involved.. I'm not interested in
reinventing the wheel - I leave that to younger, less experienced
people.
>> Some will be in your face about it and others will control your
>> strings like an unseen puppeteer and you'll just wonder why you never
>> get ahead.
>
>
>I rather doubt this. Your view presumes the goal is change of a program
>or society or corporation. My focus is to get to know people where I am,
>to prevent barriers developing between us and to overcome those which
>already exist.
Overcoming those barriers which already exist is change of society.
Others follow the lead of strong people. You just don't see it as
change.
I accept the barriers which exist and agree with most. I'm not too
interested in knowing people, I'm more interested in successfully
discharging responsibility and beating goals that I set for myself.
Hugh
Bill Nelson
>
> On Tue, 28 May 2002 23:09:22 GMT, Rick Tyler <rht...@attbi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I just finished the second weekend of Wood Badge. I approve of the
> >curriculum, and it was a wonderful experience. I recommend it to any
> >Scouter, and especially to unit leaders.
> >
> >One of the presentations was on diversity in Scouting. The instructor
> >made the point that Scouting is still largely a white suburban/rural
> >activity.
>
> I think there are several reasons we don't find much diversity in BSA.
>
> 1. The SM is usually a WASP (or Catholic) and runs his troop based on
> his successful methods. That means youth should adapt to his methods
> or choose to join another troop.
yep
>And I see BSA in a number of areas, mostly in the South.
The Southwest has the largest councils (if you don't count LFL)
> 2. In a volunteer group I think the tendency is for like-minded people
> to band together - with the exception of sports teams. In a group of
> multiple cultures the cultures tend to clique. Even those who drive
> sporty cars don't "hang" with those who drive Broncos or pickemups. We
> are most comfortable with people from our own "neighborhood".
>
> If you are a WASP:
> 1. Does your son want to join a troop that is mostly Catholic, Jewish
> or Mormon? Or, does he not make any distinction except he wants in the
> troop with his friends - who happen to be WASPs also. And
> vice-versa.....
My troop is sponsored by a Lutheran Church, I am Roman Catholic, and our
CC
is Jewish. I don't think the kids even realize how diverse,
religiously,
we are. We are all Scouts.
There are VERY few black or hispanic
kids in our council though.
I think the emphasis on recruiting them is a good thing. We
need to do more than recruit them though. We need to embrace
them when they join.
take care,
bill
Amgine Neilson
J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
> On Thu, 30 May 2002 18:27:26 -0500, Amgine Neilson
> <JAmgine...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I guess I'm generally opposed to "modern" society as well. And I pride
>>myself on my "low-tech" skills and experiences. Having some familiarity
>>...I would not generally bring up topics
>>likely to cause disagreement, especially with my elders.
>>
>
> I rarely initiate...
I'm sorry, I was too obtuse in my lnaguage (a common failing for me.) I
was apologizing for disagreeing with you.
>>but I also enjoy your insights on many topics.
>
> I appreciate that. On rare occasions I take a recess from
> confrontation. I can be as friendly as anyone or as harsh - I just
> have no middle ground.
As a "pseudo-intellectual", I am generally impressed with your rhetoric.
I may not always agree with your views or opinions, but you express them
well and are consistent.
> I differ in that I am satisfied that I have most of the answers that
> work in the areas where I am involved.. I'm not interested in
> reinventing the wheel - I leave that to younger, less experienced
> people.
Well I'm sure in that category! But then I don't see myself as
reinventing the wheel, I'm trying to apply it to a different use. I want
to learn as much as I can to avoid potential problems others have
already overcome. Which probably means I really am reinventing the wheel.
> Overcoming those barriers which already exist is change of society.
> Others follow the lead of strong people. You just don't see it as
> change.
You're probably correct, though I don't see my immediate community as
"society." My academic background constantly suggests to me the bigger
picture of things as something far larger than my local communities.
Amgine
I am he as you are he as we are altogether
<JAmgine...@netscape.net> wrote:
>No one can convince another to stretch their comfort zone, and it would
>be rude in the extreme to suggest it. Unless, of course, you happen to
>hold a position of responsibility in an organization which requires it.
>It sounds to me like the BSA is putting forth a major effort to continue
>to expand its support of ethnic diversity, which is a laudable goal to
>bring excellent opportunities for boys to communities who might
>currently feel unaccepted in Scouting. In part that effort is to ask SMs
>(and undoubtedly others) to stretch their comfort zones, to recruit from
>a variety of ethnic backgrounds and to work with local communities.
I'd like to know what the actual numbers are for the ethnic mix of BSA
and how that compares to the US population in general.
Too many times I've seen claims that an ethnic group is under
represented but it turns out that the whiners want a 50/50 split when
the ethnic group is question is only 15% of the population.
For example, I live in a community of about 5,000 people but we have
about 100 blacks. That's 2% of the population compared to 12% of the
population in general. How many blacks should we have in a Scout
troop of 50 boys? Statistically speaking there should be one but we
currently have none. That's still within the acceptable range for
statistics. Why do we have none? Because there are very few black
boys in appropriate age for Boy Scouts. The local Cub Scout pack has
6 black boys, roughly 6% of the pack. That's a gross over
representation based on the community. Does anyone suggest that we
should work to recruit more whites to balance things out? No and if
they did, they'd be branded as racists.
J. Hugh Sullivan
<bnel...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>"J. Hugh Sullivan" wrote:
>> If you are a WASP:
>> 1. Does your son want to join a troop that is mostly Catholic, Jewish
>> or Mormon? Or, does he not make any distinction except he wants in the
>> troop with his friends - who happen to be WASPs also. And
>> vice-versa.....
>
>My troop is sponsored by a Lutheran Church, I am Roman Catholic, and our
>CC
>is Jewish. I don't think the kids even realize how diverse,
>religiously,
>we are. We are all Scouts.
I don't think kids distinguish by religion - they just know their
friends. We had a Jewish boy in our troop in the 40s - all I knew was
that he went to a different church (I didn't even know he went on a
different day). Same for the Catholics who had a VERY small school and
most went to the public schools.
Somewhere in the later teens we begin to label stereotypes based on
our experiences. Before that, if we labelled people, it was based on
what our parents thought. But, in the later teens, we recognize the
drunks, druggies, indolent, dumbos, honor students and star athletes
without assistance.
>There are VERY few black or hispanic
>kids in our council though.
>
>I think the emphasis on recruiting them is a good thing. We
>need to do more than recruit them though. We need to embrace
>them when they join.
My problem is with trying to force equality and acceptance. I can be
talked into doing a lot of things but there is a good chance that you
will have to kill me to force me to believe in something I don't.
Fortunately I can usually insulate myself from positions with which I
don't agree.
Hugh
I am he as you are he as we are altogether
wrote:
>I don't think kids distinguish by religion - they just know their
>friends. We had a Jewish boy in our troop in the 40s - all I knew was
>that he went to a different church (I didn't even know he went on a
>different day).
When I was in the 3rd grade there were two Jewish boys in my class.
Both of them were taking some mysterious course called "Judo." We all
lept to the conclusion that Judo had something to do with Judaism.
Imagine my surprise years later when I found out that Judo came from
Japan.
J. Hugh Sullivan
<JAmgine...@netscape.net> wrote:
>J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 May 2002 18:27:26 -0500, Amgine Neilson
>> <JAmgine...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I guess I'm generally opposed to "modern" society as well. And I pride
>>>myself on my "low-tech" skills and experiences. Having some familiarity
>>>...I would not generally bring up topics
>>>likely to cause disagreement, especially with my elders.
>>
>> I rarely initiate...
>
>I'm sorry, I was too obtuse in my lnaguage (a common failing for me.) I
>was apologizing for disagreeing with you.
You are taking some of the things I attempt to say generically as
directed to you. You have no need to apologize. I agree that I
sometimes sound more direct than I intend. It comes from years of
being responsible for quick decisions. We could always fine tune
later.
>As a "pseudo-intellectual", I am generally impressed with your rhetoric.
>I may not always agree with your views or opinions, but you express them
>well and are consistent.
I really don't expect younger people to agree with me just as a number
of well-intentioned older people do not. I comfort myself with the
fact that I am successful at higher levels than most here are probably
even exposed to.
My older son is just now coming around to my way of thinking - and
without any urging from me. It's because he is more experienced and at
higher echelons than ever before. The trick is to remember how it was
when one only followed policy instead of making it.
>Well I'm sure in that category! But then I don't see myself as
>reinventing the wheel, I'm trying to apply it to a different use.
I didn't either when I was you age. Most of us think of ourselves as
the bright new star of the universe when we are young. That attitude,
coupled with our profiting from experience, is what produces leaders.
For example, I thought I could personally end WWII if they just sent
me overseas when I was 17. They did and I did - the dropping of the
atomic bombs at the same time had little to do with it! 8-)
>I want
>to learn as much as I can to avoid potential problems others have
>already overcome. Which probably means I really am reinventing the wheel.
In the sense that you probably do not yet have a "wheel", you may be
right. I can usually look at results and determine what went right and
what did not - but we all need to learn somehow. I can usually predict
the results of a method.
>> Overcoming those barriers which already exist is change of society.
>> Others follow the lead of strong people. You just don't see it as
>> change.
>You're probably correct, though I don't see my immediate community as
>"society." My academic background constantly suggests to me the bigger
>picture of things as something far larger than my local communities.
One must crawl before he walks. Most small communities are reflections
of the larger community. Small southern towns are mostly alike
although they are not like northern towns. But most of us will not
have national responsibilities. OTOH a coral reef begins with one
creature.
Today's society is little different from all previous societies. Each
wants to try something different in hopes of producing a better
society. Each has the same flaw - they have no idea whether it will
work. It would work if we were robots but since we are different
humans........
BSA is no different.
Hugh
John O
> Japan.
Good thing you dodn't pick on them, eh? :-)
J. Hugh Sullivan
we are altogether) wrote:
>I'd like to know what the actual numbers are for the ethnic mix of BSA
>and how that compares to the US population in general.
>
>Too many times I've seen claims that an ethnic group is under
>represented but it turns out that the whiners want a 50/50 split when
>the ethnic group is question is only 15% of the population.
>
>For example, I live in a community of about 5,000 people but we have
>about 100 blacks. That's 2% of the population compared to 12% of the
>population in general. How many blacks should we have in a Scout
>troop of 50 boys? Statistically speaking there should be one but we
>currently have none. That's still within the acceptable range for
>statistics. Why do we have none? Because there are very few black
>boys in appropriate age for Boy Scouts. The local Cub Scout pack has
>6 black boys, roughly 6% of the pack. That's a gross over
>representation based on the community. Does anyone suggest that we
>should work to recruit more whites to balance things out? No and if
>they did, they'd be branded as racists.
The problem is usually some government clerk with a lot of spare time
- or a Harvard or Cal-Berkeley grad.
When one's rice is destroyed in the field, the ACLU blames the hawks
flying overhead. So, you kill the hawks and produce even less rice.
Then some rice farmer notices all the rodents in the field eating the
rice - the hawks were there for the rodents, not the rice. The farmer
catches on but the ACLU never does.
There is a natural balance to most things and we usually kick our own
fannies when we try to destroy it. The solution to ethnicity is not
quotas or immigrant government clerks, it's letting the problem find
balance without us having to alternately prop up both sides.
Hugh
I am he as you are he as we are altogether
Yep!
LTCROGER
I have found is that many non-whites don't want to join. It can either be a
cultural problem or sometime just the type of nieghborhood they come from has
such pressures that makes the attempt fail. We have some troops in the area
that are mostly black and hispanic and the norm is for single mothers being
involved because there just aren't any Dads. Also in these nieghborhoods it
just not cool to be a Scout. You can even see that in the white communities
which is one reason why all of our numbers have gone done.
P.S. My wife takes offense to your last comment. She has been proud to be a
Soccer Mom. Four kids and and 8-12 yrs each playing soccer. She does alot more
but, that was a big part in our lives.
Rick Tyler
>I think Scouting is trying to get non-white boys into the program. The problem
>I have found is that many non-whites don't want to join. It can either be a
>cultural problem or sometime just the type of nieghborhood they come from has
>such pressures that makes the attempt fail. We have some troops in the area
>that are mostly black and hispanic and the norm is for single mothers being
>involved because there just aren't any Dads. Also in these nieghborhoods it
>just not cool to be a Scout. You can even see that in the white communities
>which is one reason why all of our numbers have gone done.
I agree with your comments. Thanks.
>
>P.S. My wife takes offense to your last comment. She has been proud to be a
>Soccer Mom. Four kids and and 8-12 yrs each playing soccer. She does alot more
>but, that was a big part in our lives.
My comment was: 'Incidentally, the use of "soccer mom" in a response
to this post is not welcome. You might as well say "the Nazis wanted
it that way.")' Please extend my aplogies to your wife. I wrote this
not as a criticism of mothers who support their sons in sports, but
because there are some inflexible dim-bulbs who frequently post in
this newsgroup that all problems with modern Boy Scouting are due to
"soccer moms." You'll have to ask them what they mean by that, but I
can tell you that once someone invokes "soccer moms" in r.s.u. all
useful discussion ends.
It's a version of "Goodwin's Law." A good definition of this is from
http://members.tripod.com/~goodwin_2/law.html: "He (Goodwin)
postulated that as the length of a discussion thread grows, the
probability approaches one that one participant will introduce the
terms 'Hitler' or 'Nazi'. The custom has evolved that the first party
to utter 'Hitler' or 'Nazi' has lost the discussion, and the thread
terminates." In r.s.u., you just replace "Hitler" with "soccer moms."
Greg Montgomery
of for business interest. Business interest slash corporate America are
large contributors of each level of scouting. I venture to say you saw
more diversity teaching Wood Badge than you would ever see at a district
event. Corporate America's major theme is catering to Diversity.
It is similar to no Gays in scouting. LDS represent around 25% of
scouting. Scouting is LDS premier youth program. Simply put, gays in,
LDS out
Short of busing diversity in. The best place for us to begin, is to
sweep our own door steps. Most scouters and churches hold women at bay.
Even though the law and BSA policy is strictly against the practice.
Diversity that!
Yis,
Greg Montgomery
Scoutmaster T2
District Committee Membership Chair
Commissioner
Egwa Tawa Dee
I use to be a Bobwhite
settummanque or blackeagle
lot of as the BSA moves into this next year:
>We were instructed to include a >ticket item focused on diversity, or
>include something to do with >enhancing diversity in Scouting >within a ticket
item.
The BSA has been severely beaten up in recent years -- by national civil rights
organizations of all flavors, by governmental organizations, and internally by
guys and gals like me who see the "lily white, must be all right" attitude and
prevailance at Scouting activities and events.
The BSA wants a more diverse organization, because in part it helps them to
gather resources (people, money and facilities) a bit better but also because
it finds itself trying to defend itself as an organization which is "open to
all."
"Open to all? If that's so, then where are the Black, Latino and Asian people?
Why do you "stick them" to pockets in your Council? Why aren't there more
Black Commissioners, committeemembers (other than the "placeholders" for that
segment of the Council's territory) and unit leaders (other than "special
needs" units)??
The biggest impact is when we display the Order of the Arrow and the Venturing
programs to the public. Right now, the OA stands about 74 percent white, and 8
percent black. Other racial groups make up the rest. However, going to NOAC
(as I'll be visiting this summer -- you won't be able to miss me! *smiling*),
you'll be hard-pressed to find more than a couple dozen black Arrowmen.
There's a preception that the BSA needs to disspell. The preception is that
"Scouting is a time waster." Not that Scouting is expensive, or that Scouting
doesn't cater to the values of the African-American or Latin-American
communities.
Kids --our market -- see it as a "waste of time". What good is earning all of
those badges?? What good is getting to be labeled an "Eagle Scout"? What's
the payoff?
They can see the payoff in school...you go to school, you get good grades,
people are going to give you money to go to college with. They can see the
payoff in sports ...you participate, you get really good, you compete against
other really good people, and someone out there gives you some money to play
that sport...
But Scouting...there's no immediate payoff...and that's where the "selling of
Scouting" has to cater to the eventual payoff.
There's a lot more I can write about this, Rick, but I'm interested in reading
what others have to say about the topic as well. Just to let you know,
though, that the BSA WILL be emphasizing this very much as the new program year
unfolds...we simply need to be less "white" and more "multicolor".
Settummanque!
settummanque, the blackeagle ((LTC) Mike Walton)
Co-Owner/Marketing Leader kyblk...@aol.com
Rose Walton Personal Computing Coaching, Burnsville, MN
<URL::http://users.aol.com/rwcoaching/>
Be Prepared for Scouting's new Y2K pubs...get My Binder!!
I am he as you are he as we are altogether
blackeagle) wrote:
>The biggest impact is when we display the Order of the Arrow and the Venturing
>programs to the public. Right now, the OA stands about 74 percent white, and 8
>percent black. Other racial groups make up the rest.
As I remember the figures, the general population about 11% or 12%.
8% black in OA isn't that far off the mark. Working to target the
black is as discriminatory as affirmative action. If the blacks are
complaining that BSA doesn't have enough black members, let them join
and change the numbers.
>They can see the payoff in sports ...you participate, you get really good, you compete against
>other really good people, and someone out there gives you some money to play
>that sport...
Alas, that's the big lie. NCAA says that 1 out of 3,000 high school
basketball players get some level of financial aid to play college
ball. That includes the partial scholarships and the "grants" that D3
colleges have to give. The numbers are better for football, 1 out of
1,000. I don't recall the numbers for going pro but they are equally
astronomical. The goofy parents, white and black, who are convinced
that sports will be the financial future of their children are
deluding themselves.
>But Scouting...there's no immediate payoff...and that's where the "selling of
>Scouting" has to cater to the eventual payoff.
Scouting has always sold the payoff. Leadership skills, peeing in the
woods, and building fires. What more do you want.
The sad thing is that the values of Scouting are now percieved to be
out of date. Kids are encouraged to lie to teachers, referees,
coaches to get by. God is going out of fashion. What can we expect
when we had a President is a known womanizer and liar but the press
and the public support him?
Richard Westover
I'm not sure where you got your number for LDS % in scouting but
it is not as high as you suggest. In fact the last set of numbers
that I saw were about half that. In fact is said that the Methodist
church chartered units made up the largest number of boys in
scouting in the country and the LDS church chartered the most
units. Combined they made about 25% of the total youth but each
had about 12% ( over 400,000 each, but LDS number was a little
lower than the Methodist count.) I will keep looking for those
number and post them to the group if I can find them, maybe somebody
else can remember where they are on the internet and post a link.
The list was a breakdown of members and units by chartering organizations.
You are correct on the statement "gays in, LDS out". I read multiple
quotes for different church leaders during the Supreme Court case a
couple of years ago. In fact they already have a program in place that
could
replace the use of Scouting if needed. (Been used outside of the USA
for a few years now, and was just introduced in the US this year.)
Right now it is used WITH Scouting but it is easy to see how it
could be used INSTEAD of Scouting.
Richard Westover
> It is similar to no Gays in scouting. LDS represent around 25% of
> scouting. Scouting is LDS premier youth program. Simply put, gays in,
> LDS out
>
>
> Yis,
> Greg Montgomery
JonFickett
years ago and there was only a passing mention of diversity and certainly no
direction to include it in my ticket.
Or could it be a regional requirement? It would be kinda tough to fulfill here
in small town New Hampshire.
Just curious.
Jon Fickett "I used to be a Bobwhite...and still am."
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
Rick Tyler
wrote:
>Is this the new Wood badge curriculum? I took the course a lttle less than 2
>years ago and there was only a passing mention of diversity and certainly no
>direction to include it in my ticket.
>
>Or could it be a regional requirement? It would be kinda tough to fulfill here
>in small town New Hampshire.
>Jon Fickett "I used to be a Bobwhite...and still am."
From discussion on the Wood Badge discussion groups on the 'net, it is
a national BSA requirement.
It's kind of tough to fulfill here in Sammamish, Washington, too. We
are a bedroom community (the largest employer is the Safeway market)
for Redmond, Bellevue, and Seattle. There is some racial diversity,
but almost no economic differences -- it's a middle class neighborhood
from top to bottom, where most people work for companies like
Microsoft and Boeing.
My "diversity" ticket element has to do with educating our junior
leaders on the place of disabled Scouts in the program, and how they
can best work with them.
Rick Tyler
ASM, Troop 571
Chief Seattle Council
I used to be a Buffalo...
__________________________________________________________________
"Ignorant voracity -- a wingless vulture -- can soar only into the
depths of ignominy." Patrick O'Brian
JonFickett
Could you kindly direct me to some of the Wood Badge discussion groups you
refer to?
Jon "barely escaped being on staff for the fall class" Fickett
ASM T260
Brookline NH
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
Robert Haar
"JonFickett" <jonfi...@aol.comdiespam> wrote in message
news:20020605132934...@mb-fx.aol.com...
> It would be kinda tough to fulfill here
> in small town New Hampshire.
>
Why? Is everyone the same in your town? Diversity has to do with
recognizing,
appreciating and coping with the marvelous spectrum of who we are as
humans.
Even if everyone in your town has the same cultural background, you
still
have young/old, male/female, etc.
--
Bob Haar email: rlh...@comcast.net
ASM, BSA Troop 188, Rochester Hills, Michigan
Objiwa District Advancement Committee
Clinton Valley Council
ed
months ago, the first time it has been offered in the Southern Region, at
Camp Ti'ak in South Mississippi. The really reinforced the time-honored
values of Scouting and the "New Program" was outstanding.
As for the focus on diversity, the way I interpreted it was that we, as
leaders have to make double sure that we have to include ALL scouts in the
big picture...not just the ones that stand out. True, there will be those
who are "stand-outs" and there will the "lazy" ones and a myriad of scouts
in the middle. There will also be those who are physically challenged in
other ways. Those are the ones who we need to keep from falling between the
cracks. It is so easy to allow that to happen.
During my course, and the Ticket Preparation we did not spend an inordinant
amount of time on the "Diversity" factor. We did discuss it and made sure
that the ruling idea was evident. I think that we have to make ourselves
cognizant of the needs of the scouters in our group.....ALL SCOUTERS, and
adjust to the environment that we operate in. Personally, I don't think
that this was directed toward any particular type or brand....racial,
physical, geographical or other.
Oh, and by the way, have you finished your ticket?
"And I'm gonna work my ticket if I can!"
Ed Finley
Troop 209, Pine Burr Area Council
SR448
"Owl Patrol"
"Rick Tyler" <rht...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:sk28fu4kker5qr8mr...@4ax.com...
> I just finished the second weekend of Wood Badge. I approve of the
> curriculum, and it was a wonderful experience. I recommend it to any
> Scouter, and especially to unit leaders.
>
> One of the presentations was on diversity in Scouting. The instructor
> made the point that Scouting is still largely a white suburban/rural
> activity. Even around here, which is a pretty racially diverse area,
> nearly all the faces you see at camp or at other gatherings are white.
> I agree that Scouting could do a better job at serving *all* the boys
> in the country, and that it is a Good Thing that someone is working on
> it.
>
> We were instructed to include a ticket item focused on diversity, or
> include something to do with enhancing diversity in Scouting within a
> ticket item. I have three blind people in my family and so would have
> included something about Scouting for disabled boys in my ticket
> anyway, but I am curious why there is *so* much focus on it in the
> Wood Badge class.
>
> Anyone reading r.s.u. know about the genesis of this part of Wood
> Badge want to comment about why this is the *only* specific item that
> is called out in the requirements for the ticket? Teaching boys to
> make ethical choices as adults is the number one goal of the BSA --
> why isn't something like that included as a mandatory ticket element?
> Why aren't any of the other important aims of Scouting included as
> required elements?
>
> (Incidentally, the use of "soccer mom" in a response to this post is
> not welcome. You might as well say "the Nazis wanted it that way.")
>
> Yours in Scouting,
JonFickett
Oh, and by the way, have you finished your ticket?
"And I'm gonna work my ticket if I can!"
1 book to read and a visit to the Scout Museum and I'm done, 20 months later!
Hard work (I was somewhat optimistic on some time frames) but well worth it,
for me and my Troop.
"Any BOBWHITES out there?"
Jon Fickett
ASM T260
Brookline NH
Daniel Webster Council
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
Greg Montgomery
Rick Tyler
>Isn't the WoodBadge 2002 just wonderful?! I went through it as well a few
>months ago, the first time it has been offered in the Southern Region, at
>Camp Ti'ak in South Mississippi. The really reinforced the time-honored
>values of Scouting and the "New Program" was outstanding.
I just finished reading the new "Patrol Leader's Handbook." It is
impressive how they tie the leadership skills from Wood Badge into the
youth program. There has been some criticism, including on this
newsfroup, that the different Boy Scout publications are not entirely
consistent. The new PLH and Wood Badge 21C are two parts of a
leadership training plan that makes sense to me. I look forward to
other new publications.
<snip>
>
>Oh, and by the way, have you finished your ticket?
>
>Ed Finley
>"Owl Patrol"
My second weekend ended 5/31/02. I have one item finished, three more
underway, and will finish the last on an October campout.
Rick Tyler
ASM, Troop 571
Chief Seattle Council
Goodscout
than 6 months after our practical course work was over. I'm assuming that
the new course doesn't have that limitation. Also, am I correct in my
understanding that the ticket items have been reduced from 9 to 6, and the
time available for completion from 2 years to 18 months? Just curious.
--
Gregg Jorgensen
ASM Troop 27
AA Crew 27
Gurnee, IL
Wood Badge C-7-98
(I used to be a Fox...)
"Rick Tyler" <rht...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:7oshguco7qhvdp0it...@4ax.com...
Rick Tyler
wrote:
>When I was in Wood Badge (C-7-98) we weren't allowed to finish any sooner
>than 6 months after our practical course work was over. I'm assuming that
>the new course doesn't have that limitation. Also, am I correct in my
>understanding that the ticket items have been reduced from 9 to 6, and the
>time available for completion from 2 years to 18 months? Just curious.
You now have 18 months to complete your ticket, as far as I know there
is no minimum time, and there are now five items required.
Yours in Scouting,
JonFickett
Jon Fickett
ASM T260
Brookline NH
Bobwhite
(oh, and a brandy new Ordeal member, Passaconaway Lodge #220)
Goodscout
the course about 25 years earlier. (A three-beader no less.) He was doing
it again "To see what this new course is like." He also said things like
"Back in the old days, when Wood Badge was tough.. "
--
Gregg Jorgensen
ASM Troop 27
AA Crew 27
Gurnee, IL
Wood Badge C-7-98
(I used to be a Fox...)
"JonFickett" <jonfi...@aol.comdiespam> wrote in message
news:20020614153604...@mb-cv.aol.com...
John O
> impressive how they tie the leadership skills from Wood Badge into the
> youth program.
I think this book is completely impressive, on all counts. Well, I could
handle a lower price, but it's worth the $8. We'll be buying several for our
PLC next fall.
John O
Branden Morris
> Right now, the OA stands about 74 percent white, and 8
> percent black. Other racial groups make up the rest.
How on earth can you possibly know that?
-Branden Morris
settummanque or blackeagle
>How on earth can you possibly know >that?
Stats.
Bruce E. Cobern
news:20020621181944...@mb-mq.aol.com...
> Branden Morris wrote and asked:
>
> >How on earth can you possibly know >that?
>
> Stats.
Come on, Mike. I think Branden could have figured THAT out without asking.
I believe the question was really "Where did you ever come by stats like
that?" (How'd I do, Branden?) After all, AFAIK, the ONLY information
provided to national about a lodge's membership is the information provided
in the charter renewal. Nowhere in any charter renewal package I have seen
is there any information requested about the ethnic or religious makeup of
the lodge's membership.
So, unless someone is doing some extrapolation from recollections of the
professionals in the council, how on earth can anyone quantify the racial
makeup of a lodge, or even a council?
--
Bruce E. Cobern
mailto:b...@pipeline.com
Baloo Ursidae
Hash: SHA1
settummanque or blackeagle <kyblk...@aol.com> wrote:
>>How on earth can you possibly know >that?
>
> Stats.
I think he was looking for a source.
- --
Baloo
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settummanque or blackeagle
Branden:
>I believe the question was really "Where >did you ever come by stats like
that?"
The BSA Stats Service polled OA professional advisors in 82 local Councils in
1999. They asked for an estimation of the racial breakdown in their Lodges.
This information was compared with other data that they had previously on the
Boy Scout membership breakdown.
The information was compiled as part of the BSA's hedge against the Urban
League and other minority-rights organizations as they have been pressing the
BSA to provide raw numbers on the numbers of Black, Hispanic/Latino, (American)
Indian, and Asian members of the BSA's Boy Scout program.
(Everyone is wanting to hit on the Boy Scout program for some reason...can't
figure why...)
I happen to have the numbers here because I'm doing a speech in Philadephia to
a predominately black group and the slant is that "we in the black community
talk a great game, but we don't put our money where our mouths are as far as
providing for our children."
The numbers, as provided to me from someone at the Stats Service are (percent):
white 74
black (non hispanic) 8
hispanic 6
asian 3
indian 2
unknown (probably biracial) 1
summary: white 74 percent
nonwhite 25 percent
unknown 1 percent
(That's about right: the Census numbers are:
White persons, percent, 2000 (a) 75.1%
Black or African American persons, percent, 2000 (a) 12.3%
American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2000 (a) 0.9%
Asian persons, percent, 2000 (a) 3.6%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent, 2000 (a) 0.1%
Persons reporting some other race, percent, 2000 (a) 5.5%
Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2000 2.4%
(from the 2000 Census data sheet) )
It is important, as the guy providing me the numbers indicate, that this is an
ESTIMATE based purely on the observations of BSA profiessionals involved in the
OA as Lodge Advisors. It would be interesting to take a national poll of
Arrowmen and ask for their racial background as well as their age.
(and truth be known, that's about right as far as my own personal observation
as I've been around the nation at OA events. It would be great if someone
would take a survey during NOAC and report on it here.)
I asked how large the sample was and the listing of the Councils they polled,
and I was told that these were "quality councils" all over the nation and that
they could not provide me with total OA membership and that I would have to get
that from the OA folks.
I've *yet* to get an answer on the total number of Arrowmen in the BSA from
*anyone*...I understand it partly, Bruce, because of the "moving parts" thing:
are we talking about registered Arrowmen? Are we talking about active
Arrowmen?? and what's that definition of "active Arrowmen??"
Hope this answers both yours and Branden's question.
Baloo Ursidae
Hash: SHA1
settummanque or blackeagle <kyblk...@aol.com> wrote:
> (Everyone is wanting to hit on the Boy Scout program for some reason...can't
> figure why...)
Well, you fight one high profile case against one group, the rest raise
thier eyebrows. But I'm not going to dig on this part, it's better
suited for a thread in .issues...
> summary: white 74 percent
> nonwhite 25 percent
> unknown 1 percent
>
> (That's about right: the Census numbers are:
>
> White persons, percent, 2000 (a) 75.1%
> Black or African American persons, percent, 2000 (a) 12.3%
> American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2000 (a) 0.9%
> Asian persons, percent, 2000 (a) 3.6%
> Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent, 2000 (a) 0.1%
> Persons reporting some other race, percent, 2000 (a) 5.5%
> Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2000 2.4%
So the Scout membership still remains a slice of Americana for the most
part.
> Be Prepared for Scouting's new Y2K pubs...get My Binder!!
A bit out of date?
- --
Baloo
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Martin Hottinger
settummanque or blackeagle
And the BSA IS producing even more new publications in the standard 8x11
three-holed punched format.
Settummanque!
settummanque, the blackeagle ((LTC) Mike Walton)
Co-Owner/Marketing Leader kyblk...@aol.com
Rose Walton Personal Computing Coaching, Burnsville, MN
<URL::http://users.aol.com/rwcoaching/>