What to do about a scout being promoted despite his bad behavior?
scou...@agoodturn.daily
troop. My son is a first class scout, does okay, but isn't now, and
probably will never be one of the real shining stars that other scouts
and even adults look up to.
As I said, the troop is excellent, mostly run by the boys with some
patient and wise advice from the adult leaders.
My question is about one of the boys in the troop, who I'll call Tim.
Tim is a Star scout and probably a few months from his BOR for Life.
From the time we started in the troop, he's rubbed me the wrong way.
We're an affluent suburban troop, his parents are educated and upper
middle class, and he cops this "wanna be rapper / thug" pose. His
language in scouting settings is noticeably worse than that of anyone
else - he says "Oh my God!" all the time without even thinking twice,
and of course on occasion much cruder stuff. I've seen him remain
seated with his iPod plugged in while his parents unload gear after a
camping trip, without ever even making a motion to help. Whenever I
hear that "someone wrote a bad word" or "someone drew a dirty picture"
on the patrol room chalkboard, I'll know it was Tim.
My son happened to mention today that at their last meeting, Tim, a
couple older boys, and my son were together and he pulled out his cell
phone and was showing pornographic (or at least racy and
inappropriate) pictures to everyone.
I know that in real life, scouts are boys, and boys aren't perfect.
But every other boy in this troop, from the oldest to the youngest, is
clearly better in comportment than the "average" boy not in scouting,
and Tim is clearly worse, far worse, in comportment than most
non-scouts. Forget about "demonstrating scout spirit" as is called
for in each rank advancement. This kid doesn't demonstrate scout
spirit while he's in scouting life, let alone in daily life.
So what to do? Virtually every Life in our troop goes on to Eagle,
and I don't even think this boy should have made it beyond second
class acting the way he does. All the other scouts in the unit at
Star or higher seem to be walking "poster children" for the benefits
of Scouting, and this kid is not. I don't want to "sabotage" his
scouting career, but I just don't see how he's deserving of
advancement beyond where he is now before he cleans up his act and
keeps it that way.
So what do I do? I know that everything is supposed to be impartial,
but neither me nor my son really have the "standing" in the troop to
call this kid out. Do I talk to the committee chair? The
scoutmaster? Someone from our district or council? Everyone else's
progress in the troop makes me feel good about the scout and the
troop; any steps this kid makes toward more advancement leave me
feeling pretty uncomfortable.
Stan
> My question is about one of the boys in the troop, who I'll call Tim.
>
> Tim is a Star scout and probably a few months from his BOR for Life.
> I know that in real life, scouts are boys, and boys aren't perfect....
>
> But every other boy in this troop, from the oldest to the youngest, is
> clearly better in comportment than the "average" boy not in scouting,
> and Tim is clearly worse, far worse, in comportment than most
> non-scouts. Forget about "demonstrating scout spirit" as is called
> for in each rank advancement. This kid doesn't demonstrate scout
> spirit while he's in scouting life, let alone in daily life.
>
> So what do I do? I know that everything is supposed to be impartial,
> but neither me nor my son really have the "standing" in the troop to
> call this kid out. Do I talk to the committee chair? The
> scoutmaster? Someone from our district or council? Everyone else's
> progress in the troop makes me feel good about the scout and the
> troop; any steps this kid makes toward more advancement leave me
> feeling pretty uncomfortable.
Advancement thru Life is at the Troop level. If you feel there are
specific Scout Spirit issues that should postpone his advancement,
talk to the Scoutmaster first and then the Committee Chair. If he
gets advanced to Life anyway, then contact the District Advancement
Chair to give him a heads-up when the Scout starts working on his
Eagle project proposal.
What you're going to run into though is that the typical parental
defense to Scout Spirit problems (or any other advancement challenges)
is to demand a point-by-point comparison with every other Scout in the
Troop, so you better make sure your son's record is impeccable. The
reason is that if your son ever drank alcohol at a party, possessed
pornography, engaged in any sort of activity that he wouldn't have
done in the presence of adult supervision, it will come out. I've
seen how parents fight back when their son's advancement is
threatened, so Be Prepared. You may start by simply telling your son
that if you call out Tim, that "everything" he's ever done could come
up. So if there's anything he'd rather you never find out about, then
he should just tell you to forget about Tim.
EagleReeves
When I took over as Scoutmaster, I had a couple of similar issues:
1.) No iPods - I don't allow iPods or other media players on scout
activities including meetings. If I see it, it becomes mine until the
end of the activity and then I return it to the parent(s) at the end
of the activity. Cell Phones are soon going to be added to that list
as the texting is getting out of hand. Encourage your committee to
adopt such a policy.
2.) Parental involvement - If I see or hear of a problem like this, I
bring it to the attention of the scout's parents. I would recommend
that you visit with your son's scoutmaster and encourage him to visit
with the scout's parents.
3.) District Eagle Board - I am not sure if all councils are like
this, but here the District Advancement Chair coordinates the Eagle
Board of Reviews and collects the reference letters. The letters are
confidential and the council has refused to release them to the
parents of an Eagle candidate - much to the anger of several parents.
You might consider a confidential note to the D.A.C.
But, like Stan said, once a parent questions a scout's behavior, then
the complaining parent's scout is examined as well. Many times have I
heard, "They shouldn't complain, their son did ____ on the last
campout..." It is a treacherous road, so beware and Be Prepared!
J. Hugh Sullivan
<eagle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>3.) District Eagle Board - I am not sure if all councils are like
>this, but here the District Advancement Chair coordinates the Eagle
>Board of Reviews and collects the reference letters. The letters are
>confidential and the council has refused to release them to the
>parents of an Eagle candidate - much to the anger of several parents.
>You might consider a confidential note to the D.A.C.
I'm not sure what our council did with reference letters prior to
1972, but since then we have given them to the Scout. Our reasoning is
that no Eagle candidate will ask someone for a reference who does not
make him look like he changes costumes in a phone booth.
The Scout or SM is supposed to bring them to the BoR in sealed
envelopes.
Hugh
Stephen Henning
> I'm not sure what our council did with reference letters prior to
> 1972, but since then we have given them to the Scout. Our reasoning is
> that no Eagle candidate will ask someone for a reference who does not
> make him look like he changes costumes in a phone booth.
>
> The Scout or SM is supposed to bring them to the BoR in sealed
> envelopes.
Hi Hugh,
That must be a local rule. We follow BSA procedure and have the
reference letters sent to council and the Eagle Board reads them prior
to meeting with the Scout. In case they have questions, they can
contact the reference prior to the review. About the only time a
reference letter is double checked is the Religious reference. At Eagle
is the only time where the belief in a God is really checked.
The BSA Advancement Procedure & Policies Guide Book says:
"When the completed application is received at the council service
center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The
Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent
if no organized religious association). The council advancement
committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout
Rank Application, either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. (The
council determines the method or methods to be used.) The candidate
should have contacted individuals listed as references before including
their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate
may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the
listed references. The candidates should not be involved personally in
transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and
the council service center or advancement committee. If the initial
reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely
manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with
the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own,
by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses. The
candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the
reference or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board
of review denied or postponed because the council office or council
advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he
delivered."
Usually these Spirit/Character controversies have one side that says
that Scouts should be angels and the other side that says that Scouting
is for those who aren't angels and need the guidance and training of
Scouting. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We need to cater to
the boys who need character training, but we need to make sure we are
helping them and they are not harming us.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to scou...@earthlink.net
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA - http://scouters.us
scou...@agoodturn.daily
I'm not afraid of "having fingers pointed" at my son. His achilles
heels are more incompetence than willful bad behavior, and he doesn't
have much of a pedestal to get knocked off of anyway, if I'm wrong.
And my intent isn't to "knock off" Tim. My intent is to make Tim more
of the role model that all the other scouts in our troop at his rank
are. I just don't want to see him advance farther than he is, with
conduct of the type that he shows.
As the opportunity presents itself, I'll discuss with our scoutmaster
and/or committee chair.
Stan
> Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure what our council did with reference letters prior to
> > 1972, but since then we have given them to the Scout. Our reasoning is
> > that no Eagle candidate will ask someone for a reference who does not
> > make him look like he changes costumes in a phone booth.
>
> > The Scout or SM is supposed to bring them to the BoR in sealed
> > envelopes.
>
> Hi Hugh,
>
> That must be a local rule. We follow BSA procedure and have the
> reference letters sent to council and the Eagle Board reads them prior
> to meeting with the Scout.
I'm sure each Council handles it differently. Here, the Scout asks 3
of the 6 names to write letters and mail them to whomever his Troop
wants him to (Scoutmaster, Advancement Chair, Eagle Advisor). Until
about 8 years ago, the 3 had to be his parents, religious reference,
and education reference, but now it's any 3 of the 6 (or 5, if no
employer).
The letters are brought to the Bof R sealed. When I was Eagle
Advisor, I asked the boys to include "reference for First Last" in the
lower left corner, so I knew not to open it, and from the return
address, knew whom it was from (in case the boy had to ping anyone).
> In case they have questions, they can
> contact the reference prior to the review. About the only time a
> reference letter is double checked is the Religious reference. At Eagle
> is the only time where the belief in a God is really checked.
I won't touch this with a 10' pole. I once prepared, for my, the SM,
and CC signature a statement that-
1. The boy includes himself among the "We" who "In God We Trust"
2. The boy includes himself in the "Nation" that's "One Nation
under God"
and that was what I brought to his Eagle BofR (organized by the Troop
and includes one member from the District Advancement Committee). As
far as I'm concerned, Freedom of Religion includes not having to
explain, defend, justify, or rationalize one's beliefs to anybody.
Merely confirming privately with his Troop that he believes in God,
even if his belief is simply The God In Whom We Trust, is sufficient,
IMO, to establish compliance with BSA policy.
J. Hugh Sullivan
wrote:
> Ea...@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan) wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure what our council did with reference letters prior to
>> 1972, but since then we have given them to the Scout. Our reasoning is
>> that no Eagle candidate will ask someone for a reference who does not
>> make him look like he changes costumes in a phone booth.
>>
>> The Scout or SM is supposed to bring them to the BoR in sealed
>> envelopes.
>
>Hi Hugh,
>
>That must be a local rule. We follow BSA procedure and have the
>reference letters sent to council and the Eagle Board reads them prior
>to meeting with the Scout. In case they have questions, they can
>contact the reference prior to the review. About the only time a
>reference letter is double checked is the Religious reference. At Eagle
>is the only time where the belief in a God is really checked.
It is local and I'm not sure what the other districts do. I did think
the Council had the option. Our practice has lasted for 37 years (at
least). In all that time, and having served on boards in every Council
district and several states, I have not seen a bad reference letter. I
don't know what other areas experience but ours are essentially rubber
stamps of endorsement. I require letters from Religious leader,
School, non-related friend of the family and employer if he has
worked. The candidate may furnish other letters if he wishes.
Checking about belief in God varies also. In the South it's a common
practice throughout a Scout's career. This agrees with the oath that
every Scout takes to have a duty to God. Every Eagle candidate on any
Board on which I sit will be asked to explain his duty to God.
Practically speaking, it seems like a waste of effort and money to
send the reference letters to the council and then to the Board. Of
course we have had stability here by my chairing almost every Board
for so long and assigning the chair for any when I am out of town. I
doubt that many areas have this continuity and consistency.
Interestingly I have been at our house in AL for 3 weeks and I have
had 3 long distance calls requesting approval of Eagle projects.
If a Scout is a problem I would expect the SM or the Committee to
solve the problem.
Hugh