World Conservation Award - where does it go?
Rick Suntag
where the World Conservation Award goes on the uniform. Anybody have
any idea?
Thanks,
Rick Suntag
Pack 165 Bear Leader
Rockaway Township, NJ
Virginia Tadrzynski
fleur-di-lis) only on the opposite side.
-Ginny
Rick Suntag <rsu...@att.net> wrote in message
news:w4P2N4e8VTQ2Bs...@4ax.com...
Cub Leader
seen/heard that this one patch can also be sewn above the right pocket
(above the "BSA/CSA" strip).
Cubleader
Paul S. Wolf
> > I've gone through my leader book and my son's Bear book and can't
> > find where the World Conservation Award goes on the uniform.
> > Anybody have any idea?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rick Suntag
> > Pack 165 Bear Leader
> > Rockaway Township, NJ
Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
> The same placement as the symbol of World Brotherhood (the purple
> fleur-di-lis) only on the opposite side.
> -Ginny
Ginny is INCOPRRECT - see below.
Cubleader wrote:
> It is considered a temporary patch, so it goes on the right pocket.
> I have seen/heard that this one patch can also be sewn above the right
> pocket (above the "BSA/CSA" strip).
Cubleader was correct in his first sentence, but not the second.
The 1997-1999 Insignia Guide (33066A) says:
Under Cub Scout and Webelos Scout Insignia, on page 13:
"Cub Scout World Conservation Award, No. 00139, Cub Scout, worn as a
temporary patch on right pocket
Under Boy Scout Insignia, on page 24:
"Boy Scout World Conservation Award, No. 00140, Boy Scout and Explorer,
right pocket." (Explorer now means Venturer)
--
Paul S. Wolf, PE mailto:Paul....@alum.wpi.edu
Advancement/Safety Webmaster, USSSP http://www.usscouts.org
Ken Leung
Scout award not a cub scout award?
Rick Suntag <rsu...@att.net> wrote in message
news:w4P2N4e8VTQ2Bs...@4ax.com...
Samuel Jahaza Howard
becuase temproary insignia can be worn on the back of the merit badge sash
and the world conservation award is considered temporary insignia. This
is mentioned in the Insignia Guide, but i don't have mine handy.
YIS,
Sam Howard
Eagle 99
Asst. Scoutmaster Troop 302 Daniel Webster Council
Jambo 97
1995 Section NE-1A Conclave
Ordeal Member, Passaconaway Lodge #220
Hobdbcgv
>becuase temproary insignia can be worn on the back of the merit badge sash
>and the world conservation award is considered temporary insignia.
Given the requirements for the World Conservation Award in Boy Scouts, and
given its listing in the insignia guide under the "participation and
achievement" section of Boy Scout Insignia with recruiter, interpreter,
quality unit and other like non-temporary patches, I would hold it is not a
temporary badge/patch (at least not for Boy Scouts).
And, unlike temporary patches, it is not updated by attendance, indicates
attendance, given at an event, nor council sponsored. It is awarded by filing
for the award with the council, similar to palms or Hornaday, and unlike those
two, only one award may be earned.
and thus I hold it may not be worn on the back of the sash.
From the insignia guide (we still have only the 95 printing available here at
last check) It would seem one would choose between the Philmont patch, the
local council camp patch, or the conservation award patch to cover the right
shirt pocket.
I think the conservation award needs to be reassigned a location by the
powers-that-determine-the-good looking uniform - some local scouts have worn
it balanced opposite the silver fleur-de-lis on purple - not correct, but a
logical place and it does balance the uniform - unless you have that large
honkin' in-your-face-I-was-there National Jamboree blanket sized non-temporary
attendance patch pasted there instead.
(BTW - Are they ever going to downsize that frisbee? :-) Some local attendees
who had the patch on for the last jamboree have "lost" it from their new shirts
- and to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever mentioned anything about the
jamboree patch - bad, neutral, or good - to them )
Svelt6629
settummanque or blackeagle
field uniform.
There are two versions of the World Conservation Award....a Cub Scout version
and a Boy Scout version.
BOTH awards are considered TEMPORARY INSIGNIA and therefore, the ONLY place it
goes....
...is centered on the right pocket of the Cub Scout or Boy Scout uniform.
That's the only place it goes. It doesn't get to go above the "Boy Scouts of
America" strip on Cub Scouting uniforms, nor does it replace the World Crest on
Cub Scouting or Boy Scouting uniforms.
The World Conservation Award is a TEMPORARY PATCH.
As soon as I get a Cub Scout World Conservation Award, I'll update the
Unofficial Uniform and Insignia site with both emblems and the proper placement
of both.
Settummanque!
settummanque, the blackeagle ((MAJ) Mike Walton)
Co-Owner/Marketing Leader kyblk...@aol.com
Rose Walton Personal Computing Coaching
<URL:http://users.aol.com/rwcoaching/>
Burnsville, Minnesota USA "No fancy slogans....just GREAT work!
Hobdbcgv
>it
>goes....
>
Where does a BSA insignia document say the Boy Scout Conservation Award is a
temporary patch?
Temporary patch is defined in the insignia guide as follows :
p.5 "Temporary insignia are issued for such events as summer camp,
camporees, and scouting shows. Order of the Arrow regional and national
meetings and training may also provide them. ONLY ONE SUCH PATCH MAY BE WORN AT
A TIME."
Note - the conservation award is not issued for camps, shows, or by the OA.
The World conservation award is listed in the "participation and achievements"
section of the 'national' insignia guide -- if it is temporary, then I then
would assume the rest in that section are temporary, also--
Hornaday and Den Chief service award are also a temporary insignia, as well
as the interpreter's and recruiter's strip? A fair surprise to many.
Referring to the "ONLY ONE TEMPORARY MAY BE WORN AT A TIME RULE", the right
shirt pocket picture in the insignia guide is then incorrect because they show
more than one achievement award? - or is it more that are the insignia listed
in that acheivement section actually are not temporary?
The Conservation award is not a patch made by a council or district for an
annual event, like temporary patches. It is an award given for achievement,
and one applies to the council on a form in order to be considered for the
award after completing certain requirements involving measures of advancment -
merit badges.
Let us not confuse the phrase in the uniform guide "One temporary badge may be
worn centered on the right pocket " with
the assumption "all badges worn on the right pocket are considered temporary"
- which I have never seen in the insignia guide, BTW..
By that faulty criterion, the OA lodge patch must be removed when a recruiter
strip is applied -
There are several boys who have earned merit badges they would have otherwise
not earned, in order to earn that badge to show their conviction regarding
conservation -
so I really do not care to see anyone, national or otherwise, arbitrarily
determine the badge is temporary because it was once put on the right pocket.
If the jamboree patch can be considered non-temporary, - the jamboree patch
passed out clearly for a camp or show - been there - and there is a problem
with the placement of the conservation award, then a jamboree patch given for
attendance should be placed lower on the awards chain than an award given for
completion of several merit badges and a commitment.
boys first....
two cents worth...
Sharon Hill
Sharon
Paul S. Wolf
> >BOTH awards are considered TEMPORARY INSIGNIA and therefore, the
> >ONLY place it goes....
Hobdbcgv wrote:
> Where does a BSA insignia document say the Boy Scout Conservation
> Award is a temporary patch?
First of all, the original request was where to place the CUB SCOUT
version of the World Conservation Award on a CUB Uniform.
As I posted on Saturday, in this thread:
The 1997-1999 Insignia Guide (33066A) says:
Under Cub Scout and Webelos Scout Insignia, on page 13:
"Cub Scout World Conservation Award, No. 00139, Cub Scout,
worn as a temporary patch on right pocket
Under Boy Scout Insignia, on page 24:
"Boy Scout World Conservation Award, No. 00140, Boy Scout and
Explorer, right pocket."
Of course, Explorer in this context now means Venturer.
So BSA has said it is to be worn ON THE RIGHT POCKET in each case, and
has specifically referred to it as a temporary patch for Cub Scouts.
Therefore, for Cub Scouts the ONLY place it can be worn is on the right
pocket. For Boy Scouts, it is to be worn there also, however, since
temporary patches can also be worn on the back of the merit badge sash,
they do have that option as well.
It is true that BSA has not, for Boy Scouts, included the phrase
"worn as a temporary patch on" as they did on page 13 for Cubs. However,
they have shown elsewhere (I don't have the guide handy here to quote
the page, so I'll have to look up the exact quote tonight) that that
position is reserved for temporary patches, and as you have quoted, only
one is to be worn at a time in that position.
The rest of your convoluted logic on other insignia and their
"temporary" nature is of course, spurious. (Although the Jambo patch is
effectively "temporary" since it is removed when a Scout or Scouter
attends another Jambo and places a new Jambo patch in the same
location. I was on staff at both Jambo 1985 and 1989. I removed the
Jambo 1985 patch when I sewed on the Jambo 1989 patch, and will
hopefully replace that one with Jambo 2001 soon)
As for "WHY is the WCA a temporary patch?", I offer the following
possible answer. It does not represent a specific achievement for which
other recognition has not been given, as is the case for all the other
patches you discussed above (Hornaday, OA, Interpreter, Jambo, etc.).
Instead it represents a SECOND recognition for activities which are
recognized by other badges as well.
For Boy Scouts, in particular, it only signifies that 3 specific merit
badges, which are already on the scouts' uniform, have been earned.
For Cubs it means they've done specific Achievements and Electives, or
earned specific Webelos Activity Badges, and participated in a
conservation project.
myaddress
answers to others specific questions. Today I am going to bend my
personal rule and post opinion.
First, I want to thank all the regular posters here (except that wood
kit guy who spams us - don't forget Home Depot offers same for free)
for providing a wealth of useful information and in a friendly way.
Thanks again also to Mike Walton who has provided me info here and by
e-mail in a very matter-of-factly way, generally quoting his official
source. I can always depend on him for mostly by-the-book, quoting
the official source, accurate answers; and occasionally been there,
done that twice, seasoned advice.
Hobdbcgv: Your 10/04 posting looks like a good arguement to promote
the importance of the badge, but not a very good arguement for what
the actual rules are now. NOW, your 10/03 posting on this topic:
"I think the conservation award needs to be reassigned a location by
the powers-that-determine-the-good looking uniform - some local
scouts have worn it balanced opposite the silver fleur-de-lis on
purple - not correct, but a logical place and it does balance the
uniform - unless you have that large honkin' in-your-face-I-was-there
National Jamboree blanket sized non-temporary attendance patch pasted
there instead."
Now I think that is right on. I too think the powers-that-be should
assign it a position. Even if they make it dime size and put it down
with the arrowpoints.
Now I can agree with the others point about how it represents things
that went toword earning a rank patch or arrowpoint that is already
worn. They are right. I have what I think is a valueable
comprimise... In addition to doing the requirements (they already
have to do), and the achievements (for which they already earn
arrowpoints), balance the requirement with ADDITIONAL work that is not
required elsewhere. (btw; yes I know they have to do conservation
work with the den or pack, but that is required for other things
already too.)
And finally, (hob.) regarding "large honking-in-your-face" patches...
right again. I would gladly be the first to sign a petition limiting
the size of patches worn to the typical three inch rounder or equal
square inches in some other shape.
Yours in Scouting
Les Donoho, CC
P346, So. FL Council
leso...@mindspring.com
Hobdbcgv
>version of the World Conservation Award on a CUB Uniform.
Correct -
but then advice was given as to wear the Boy Scout award -
and the Boy Scout advice was given without appropriate reference and
including an assumption not warranted by any of the BSA documents I have ever
seen.
Before everyone goes off and assumes the Boy Scout award is also temporary,
I am asking where exactly does it say that the Boy Scout Conservation Award is
a temporary award -
The Cub Scout award was to be listed as a temporary award, and I supported
the move, and it is so done to remove confusion as to whether a Cub Scout can
wear the Cub version when he becomes a Boy Scout. But that did not apply to
the Boy Scout award.
I have noted in an earlier post as to what the Insignia guide considers as
criteria for being a temporary insignia, and I applied it to the Boy Scout
Award- and I hold that award does not even approach that criteria.
>Therefore, for Cub Scouts the ONLY place it can be worn is on the right
>pocket.
If it is referred to as a temproary patch for Cub scouts in an official BSA
insignia guide, which I believe it is, that is correct.
> For Boy Scouts, it is to be worn there >also, however, since
>temporary patches can also be worn on the back of the merit badge sash, they
do have that option as well.
Whoa! How did it suddenly become a temporary patch for Boy Scouts if it was one
for Cub Scouts? - a sort of "guilt by association" with Cub Scout awards?
There is a reason for it being a temporary award for Cubs - but the reason
is not valid for Boy Scouts.
And, it cannot be worn on the sash if it is not a temporary patch - and I have
never seen any document which refers to the Boy Scout Conservation award as a
temporary patch - and I have seen a lot of uniform and insignia documents
across the years .
>I'll have to look up the exact quote tonight) that that
>position is reserved for temporary patches,
It says temporary patches must go on that pocket - and one at a time.
note that the Guide does not say ONLY temporary patches may go there - (I
gave the reference page in an earlier post.)
>The rest of your convoluted logic on other insignia and their
>"temporary" nature is of course, spurious.
I fail to see how referring to the other insignia listed with an award in a
subsection of the insignia guide , and referring to the criterion for
determining a temporary patch in order to determine if an insignia is
temporary, is considered "spurious".
I think the adjective you seek is "apt", and I don't know where you get off
calling it spurious when you have offered no reference whatsoever in
explanation of your claim of "temporary" for a Boy Scout award - other than a
reference to a Cub scout patch.
> It does not represent a specific achievement for which
>other recognition has not been given, as is the case for all the other
>patches you discussed above (Hornaday, OA, Interpreter, Jambo, etc.).
>Instead it represents a SECOND recognition for activities which are
>recognized by other badges as well.
point well taken - however
-first, it is not an activities award - it is in the achievement and
participation section of the insignia guide. It is an achievement award
- second; Uplooking, it is just three merit badges. Downlooking, it is work
clustered around a broad (and timely) canvas of World Interaction and resource
use, conservation, and exploitation, which allows scouts to see a deeper
interaction between otherwise seemingly dissimilar events. We know of no other
vehicle which can present the same insight - a merit badge would duplicate the
work of several others and lack the impact. (Uplooking, Eagle palms are just
five more merit badges by a scout who may or may not attend meetings.. )
- third, the award is listed in the Boy Scout Requirements in the Special
Opportunitiues section.
If it is indeed a temporary award, it is the ONLY temporary award listed in
the Requirements book, the ONLY temporary acheivement award, the ONLY temporary
award based on completion of merit badges, and I believe it is then the ONLY
permanent temporary award in Boy Scouts.
Thus...The Boy Scout Concservation Award is not a temporary award because
it does not meet BSA criterion for temporary awards,
it is not noted in BSA documents as a temporary award,
it is an achievement award,
it is listed in the Requirements book in the special opportunities section
where no (other?) temporary awards are listed and it has been listed for many
years
it is earned and does not given by attendance,
and it may be earned only once in a scouts career
And.... without a definitive BSA document that identifies the Boy Scout
Conservation award as temporary, the argument that it is temporary is
fallacious because
it assumes anything on the right pocket is temporary, which is not true,
even though the converse is ture
it assumes that since the Cub award is temporary, the Boy Scout award then
is also temporary, which is a known fallacy of argument, which in particular
has no basis in fact.
The Boy Scout Conservation Award is NOT a temporary award - until I get a
reference in an authorized BSA document that specifically states otherwise, and
then it will be temporary only until the next committee review.
two cents worth
Ed Stevens
No. Your son may be a Webelo, but if you are old enough to have a
son, or are female (which your name suggests) you most assuredly are
not a Webelo. You may be a Webelo den leader, but that is not the
same as being a Webelo.
And why, as an adult, are you wearing a World Conservation Award?
That is a youth award. Adults do not earn (and hence, do not wear)
youth awards. If an adult, as a youth, earned Arrow of Light and/or
Eagle Scout, there are knots that may be worn on the adult uniform to
indicate those, but that is as close to a youth award as the adults
can get.
I don't mean to sound harsh. However, your single statement implies
several violations of the letter and the intent of uniform
regulations.
- Ed Stevens/TN
(I used to be a Bear . . .)
On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 12:58:13 GMT, Sharon Hill <avon...@home.com>
wrote:
Ed Stevens/TN
Cub Leader
Paul S. Wolf <paul....@alum.wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:37f6d055$0$77...@news.en.com...
> > Rick Suntag <rsu...@att.net> wrote:
> > > I've gone through my leader book and my son's Bear book and can't
> > > find where the World Conservation Award goes on the uniform.
> > > Anybody have any idea?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Rick Suntag
> > > Pack 165 Bear Leader
> > > Rockaway Township, NJ
>
>
> > The same placement as the symbol of World Brotherhood (the purple
> > fleur-di-lis) only on the opposite side.
> > -Ginny
>
> Ginny is INCOPRRECT - see below.
>
> Cubleader wrote:
>
> > I have seen/heard that this one patch can also be sewn above the right
> > pocket (above the "BSA/CSA" strip).
>
> Cubleader was correct in his first sentence, but not the second.
>
>
> Under Cub Scout and Webelos Scout Insignia, on page 13:
> "Cub Scout World Conservation Award, No. 00139, Cub Scout, worn as a
> temporary patch on right pocket
>
> Under Boy Scout Insignia, on page 24:
> "Boy Scout World Conservation Award, No. 00140, Boy Scout and Explorer,
>
> --
> Paul S. Wolf, PE mailto:Paul....@alum.wpi.edu
> Advancement/Safety Webmaster, USSSP http://www.usscouts.org
Thank you for the quote from the insignia guide. I KNEW that it is usually
placed on the right pocket (my first sentence). The second sentence was a
statement that I had heard and/or seen it above the pocket - not that I knew
whether or not that was correct. I wasn't sure, but I am glad that it was
corrected. By the way, I'm a "she", not a "he". :-)
Cubleader
settummanque or blackeagle
<< Where does a BSA insignia document say the Boy Scout Conservation Award is a
temporary patch? >>
Two places:
page 24 of the current BSA Insignia Guide: "Boy Scout World Conservation
Award. cloth, No. 00140, Boy Scout and Explorer, right pocket."
and
page 150 of the current BSA Scoutmasters' Handbook : "The right pocket of the
uniform shirt is reserved for embroidered emblems earned by taking part in
district, council, and national BSA activities including camporees, summer
camps and treks at high-adventure bases. One exception is the patch earned by
attending a national or world jamboree. It is worn on the uniform shirt above
the right pocket."
That's where the BSA says it goes.
>The World conservation award is listed in the "participation and achievements"
>section of the 'national' insignia guide -- if it is temporary, then I then
>would assume the rest in that section are temporary, also--
That's a bad assumption. There is NO "set place" for participation and
achievement" awards on the uniform. Every badge has a place...for instance,
the Paul Bunyan Axeman Award doesn't even GO on the uniform PERIOD. It's an
equipment decoration, like on a backpack. The same goes for the cloth versions
of the 50-Miler and the Historic Trails Awards. Interpreter strips go above
the "Boy Scouts of America" strip; the Mile Swim badge goes on swimming trunks.
And the Hornaday Award medal and/or Bar pin belongs above the left pocket when
formally worn and at all other times, the square knot representing that award
is worn above the left pocket seam of the uniform.
Every one of those badges have particular places where they belong....and they
are explained there in black and white in the BSA's official insignia guide
(and black and white on my Unofficial Uniform and Insignia site).
>Referring to the "ONLY ONE TEMPORARY MAY BE WORN AT A TIME RULE", >the right
shirt pocket picture in the insignia guide is then incorrect because they >show
more than one achievement award? - or is it more that are the insignia listed
>in that acheivement section actually are not temporary?
I don't know where you're looking at; I'm looking at the Boy Scout Insignia
illustration on page 16. On that page, the illustration is of a circle with
nothing in it representing ANY temporary emblem or insignia. One such item may
be worn or hung from the pocket flap button.
On page 9, the illustration shows the Progress Toward Ranks and the WEBELOS
Compass Points emblem in the temporary insignia location. Both insignia hangs
from the pocket flap button of the right pocket.
>The Conservation award is not a patch made by a council or district for an
>annual event, like temporary patches. It is an award given for achievement,
>and one applies to the council on a form in order to be considered for the
>award after completing certain requirements involving measures of advancment -
>merit badges.
That's all true. The BSA's Uniform and Insignia Committee, however, stated
that the World Conservation Award, like other BSA Awards which have
requirements to meet (the Hometown USA Award, for instance; the Conservation
Good Turn Award; the JLT patch; and the NJLIC patch all go on the right pocket
because of their usage as
a "stepping stone" toward earning rank advancement or other awards.
And besides, the right pocket is where ALL OTHER NATIONS place their version of
the World Conservation Award centered on the right pocket. The World
Conservation Award is based on the World Wildlife and Conservation Award
awarded by other countries.
Don't argue with *me* about it, write to the BSA's National Uniform and
Insignia Committee at the BSA's National Office address....tell them how you
feel about it and suggest a better place for the award to go on the uniform.
>If the jamboree patch can be considered non-temporary, - the jamboree patch
>passed out clearly for a camp or show - been there -
No. The Jamboree patch is considered "permanent" because of the special
opportunity that a Jamboree has. Also, because all other WOSM nations place
the Jamboree patches in the same location.
Hey...I don't make the rules where this stuff goes...I just go and find out
where it goes and let everyone else know about it!
settummanque or blackeagle
>Before everyone goes off and assumes >the Boy Scout award is also temporary,
>I am asking where exactly does it say >that the Boy Scout Conservation Award
>is a temporary award -
Once more. The LOCATION WHERE THE BADGE GOES is the location for ALL TEMPORARY
INSIGNIA. Since the BSA clearly states in the Insignia Guide that the World
Conservation Award goes on the right pocket; and since only ONE item can be
worn on the pocket at a time (you posted it straight from page 6 of the
Insignia Guide!), then the badge is considered by the BSA as a TEMPORARY BADGE.
One GOOD reference (when in doubt, always refer to where the BSA shows it for
the boys!): The CURRENT Boy Scout Handbook, on the inside cover, shows a World
Conservation Award and to the right of it, an arrow and the wording "TEMPORARY
INSIGNIA".
The template, as you know, is used to match up the locations of various
insignia to the uniform shirt.
If the BSA didn't consider the World Conservation Award as a temporary patch,
then such a disclaimer would have been placed on the inside cover "World
Conservation Award or temporary insignia."
>Whoa! How did it suddenly become a >temporary patch for Boy Scouts if it was
>one for Cub Scouts? - a sort of "guilt by >association" with Cub Scout awards?
No. The AWARD IS THE SAME AWARD. It is earned DIFFERENTLY by Cub Scouts and
WEBELOS Cub Scouts from Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Venturers.
But the Award is the EXACT SAME DESIGN (with different colors only to
match/contrast to the uniforms) and is considered the SAME Award (which can be
earned twice: once as a Cub Scout member and once as a Boy Scout/Varsity
Scout/Venturing member..
>And, it cannot be worn on the sash if it is >not a temporary patch - and I
have
>never seen any document which refers to >the Boy Scout Conservation award as a
>temporary patch - and I have seen a lot of >uniform and insignia documents
across >the years .
Got a 1993 March-April edition of _Scouting_?? In the "News Briefs" section,
it talks about the World Conservation Award AND WHERE IT GOES:
"The World Conservation Award is designed to be worn as a temporary award. It
is worn centered on the right pocket of the Cub Scout or Boy Scout uniform
shirt."
Can't get any plainer than that.
Therefore, Paul Wolf was right: if a Boy Scout chooses to do so, he may wear
the World Conservation Award on the BACKSIDE of the merit badge sash along with
other temporary insignia.
>note that the Guide does not say ONLY >temporary patches may go there - (I
>gave the reference page in an earlier >post.)
Correct. Also ANY OTHER INSIGNIA (touring badges, unofficial badges for
Popcorn sales, activities or events visited by Scouts; patches from
governmental agencies (like the US Park Service's conservation patches and
bars); and even "joke patches" -- ANYTHING that the Scout or Scouter wishes to
place there --) can be placed there as a "temporary patch".
How "temporary" it is, is up to the wearer of the uniform shirt. I've got some
shirts with "temporary patches" that's been there since 1984.
I'm sorry, Hob...but you're forgetting something here. You're dealing with the
BSA and many times, the BSA doesn't apply the same kinds of logic with regard
to its programming that you or I or any other "reasonable person" may apply.
Your reasoning is a little off, but I can understand your frustration....if you
feel that the World Conservation Award deserves more than a "temporary place"
on the shirt, recommend a place for it to go, sit down and write the BSA's
National Uniform and Insignia Committee, wait about a month or so, and get an
answer.
The justification in THIS CASE, is sound. "It's where all other nations are
placing the badge and we consider it a TEMPORARY item."
Hobdbcgv
>Once more. The LOCATION WHERE THE BADGE GOES is the location for ALL
>TEMPORARY
>INSIGNIA.
I agree entirely - but because the right pocket is the location for any
temporary insignia does not mean that any insignia which may be placed there is
then a temporary insignia.
(Isn't that the propter hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy, or do I have that
confused with another fallacy?)
>Since the BSA clearly states in the Insignia Guide that the World
>Conservation Award goes on the right pocket; and since only ONE item can be
>worn on the pocket at a time (you posted it straight from page 6 of the
>Insignia Guide!), then the badge is considered by the BSA as a TEMPORARY
>BADGE.
No, that is the assumption of the converse of the rule to be a rule, e.g.,
- The right pocket is where the temporary badges go - which is not the same as
any badge there is then temporary.
And a scout may choose to put no temporary patches on his right pocket, if
he wishes.
He may wear the Conservation award, instead :-)
>The CURRENT Boy Scout Handbook, on the inside cover, shows a World
>Conservation Award and to the right of it, an arrow and the wording
>"TEMPORARY
>INSIGNIA".
I'll have to check that out - I've got my handbooks from '31 forward (those
were passed down, I'm not THAT old :-) ) but I haven't picked up the latest
boys book for myself, sorry to say, so one is not here. Using library copies...
>No. The AWARD IS THE SAME AWARD. It is earned DIFFERENTLY
Not sure what you mean -
If it is the same award, then it can't be earned differently -
and, the cub award is listed as temporary, the Scout award is not
and the patches are now differently colored (cub is purple on yellow, scout
is purple on khaki)
same logo, same last name, but not the same award.
>(which can be
>earned twice: once as a Cub Scout member and once as a Boy Scout/Varsity
Same design but different color and different requirements and different name
and different forms and different organizations - not earning it twice, I would
hold -
Cub Scout Conservation Award is not the same name as the Boy Scout
Conservation Award - confusing that they bear the same panda maybe, but the
same, no.
.>Got a 1993 March-April edition of _Scouting_?? In the "News Briefs" section,
>it talks about the World Conservation Award AND WHERE IT GOES:
>
Now, it's a nice publication, but it is not an official source - and further,
it did not appear to differentiate between the two awards - Cub and Boy Scout -
as does the insignia guide
We have a great many knowledgeable people here, and many assumptions are made
and then amended and clarified here. Some assumptions have been made which I
still hold are unwarranted ...
I will need something definitive in order to relegate the Boy Scout award
to temporary status, and to date I have heard two arguments "for temporary" -
1. The patch for the award is in the same shape as the Cub scout award,
which is temporary - thus it is temporary also.
2. The right pocket is where any temporary insignia go - and the award goes
on the right pocket, so it must then be temporary
the mechanics of neither argument is valid - and the award is not yet proven
to be temporary
two cents worth..
^sig^
-please remove the spam block "nono" to reply
Hobdbcgv
><< Where does a BSA insignia document say the Boy Scout Conservation Award is
>a
>temporary patch? >>
>
>Two places:
>
>page 24 of the current BSA Insignia Guide: "Boy Scout World Conservation
>Award. cloth, No. 00140, Boy Scout and Explorer, right pocket."
>
but again - it says it goes on the right pocket, not that it is temporary
>and
>
>page 150 of the current BSA Scoutmasters' Handbook : "The right pocket of the
>uniform shirt is reserved for embroidered emblems earned by taking part in
>district, council, and national BSA activities including camporees, summer
>camps and treks at high-adventure bases. One exception is the patch earned
>by
>attending a national or world jamboree. It is worn on the uniform shirt
>above
>the right pocket."
>
>That's where the BSA says it goes.
I read it a bit different -
That's where the BSA Scoutmaster's handbook says that area is reserved for
embroidered emblems earned by taking part in district, council, and national
BSA activities including camporees, summer camps, and treks at high adventure
bases.
While those patches are listed under the temporary subtitle, it does NOT say
the right pocket is reserved for temporary patches - it says the right pocket
is reserved for embroidered emblems earned at activities -
( and the award is not an activity).
>>The World conservation award is listed in the "participation and
>achievements"
>>section of the 'national' insignia guide -- if it is temporary, then I then
>>would assume the rest in that section are temporary, also--
>
> snip - agree that each has its place and not all go on the uniform >
but the statement goes to temporary, not placement.
No temporary badges in that section - some may not go on the uniform, but no
temporary badges are in the section.
I am addressing only those that go on the uniform and also would be
considered temporary - paul bunyan is neither temporary nor on the uniform, the
same appleids to mile swim, etc.
<snip>
>
>>The Conservation award is not a patch made by a council or district for an
>>annual event, like temporary patches. It is an award given for achievement,
>>and one applies to the council on a form in order to be considered for the
>>award after completing certain requirements involving measures of advancment
>-
>>merit badges.
>
>That's all true. The BSA's Uniform and Insignia Committee, however, stated
>that the World Conservation Award, like other BSA Awards which have
>requirements to meet (the Hometown USA Award, for instance; the Conservation
>Good Turn Award; the JLT patch; and the NJLIC patch all go on the right
>pocket
right
>because of their usage as
>a "stepping stone" toward earning rank advancement or other awards.
I don't think that is totally correct
But even if true, that does not make the patch/award a temporary award. It
just says that's where we put those awards.
>And besides, the right pocket is where ALL OTHER NATIONS place their version
>of
>the World Conservation Award centered on the right pocket. The World
>Conservation Award is based on the World Wildlife and Conservation Award
>awarded by other countries.
And if we put the award on that pocket to have solidarity with other countries'
efforts and world uniformity, then does it automatically become a temporary
award? - No.
Or is it an award that is not temporary that happens to go in the same place
as the scouts in the rest of the world? Ah, yes.
Consider what would have happened if the rest of the scouts in the world had
the unity crest on the right pocket, and we a) - put it there -hmm...temporary
world crest? or b) did not put it there - oops ...not willing to bend for world
unity for provincial pride? Almost have to put it there or renig on a
fundamental principle
<snip on addressing the uniform committee >
the insignia guide speaks for itself if nothing is read into its presentation
in the guide - we do not need a clarification - we have defined temporary, we
have clustered like awards, and we have labeled patches that are temporary as
temporary and those that are not are not labeled.
>>If the jamboree patch can be considered non-temporary, - the jamboree patch
>>passed out clearly for a camp or show - been there -
>
>No. The Jamboree patch is considered "permanent" because of the special
>opportunity that a Jamboree has. Also, because all other WOSM nations place
>the Jamboree patches in the same location.
Actually, page 150 of the Scoutmaster handbook now lists the Jamboree patch as
temporary
And, again the attempt by the uniform committee to conform to world standards -
world award, world uniformity in location - which has nothing to do with a
determination of temporary
>
>Hey...I don't make the rules where this stuff goes...I just go and find out
>where it goes and let everyone else know about it!
>
hey, that's my line....
We're defintiely reading the same page - (a little differently at times, but it
is the same page.)
BTW, I'll be in the viking council area in a month or so - what's your district
and your roop number?
mikal
Stevens <ed.st...@home.com> wrote:
> "My son and I ... are Webelos."
> No. Your son may be a Webelo, but if you are old
> enough to have a
> son, or are female (which your name suggests) you most
> assuredly are
> not a Webelo. You may be a Webelo den leader, but
> same as being a Webelo.
There is no such thing as a 'Webelo'. 'Webelos' is NOT the
plural of 'Webelo'. The correct term is 'Webelos Scouts'
or 'Webelos'. Her son is a Webelos, she is not.
> And why, as an adult, are you wearing a World
> Conservation Award?
> That is a youth award. Adults do not earn (and hence,
> do not wear)
> youth awards. If an adult, as a youth, earned Arrow
> of Light and/or
> Eagle Scout, there are knots that may be worn on the
> adult uniform to
> indicate those, but that is as close to a youth award
> as the adults
> can get.
> I don't mean to sound harsh. However, your single
> statement implies
> several violations of the letter and the intent of
> uniform
> regulations.
Correct, the WCA is for youth only. Cub Scouts & Webelos
Scouts should only wear the Cub Scout World Conservation
Award while they are a Cub or Webelos Scouts. If they
become a Boy Scout, it should not be transfered over. For
the same reason, Boy Scouts/Varsity Scouts should wear the
Boy Scout World Conservation Award only as long as they are
still Boy/Varsity Scouts. Once they turn 18, off it goes.
Michael Brown
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