OA membership camping requirement
Tim Hewitt
old in March, and we have boys with as many as 40 nights of camping in
the past two years. Out of 12 boys, we have 8 that I believe qualify for
the election process.
I understand the "one and only one long term camp" requirement, but the
fulfillment of the remaining nights of short term camping is under debate.
My question is, does cabin camping count towards the 9 days (10 nights)?
TroopMaster software excludes it. I have found nothing in the OA
election materials or on the OA web site to verify TroopMaster's
position. I had an email exchange with Sam at TroopMaster and he has a
logical position, but one that I've had rebuffed in my district - though
not in writing yet.
I have now received varying opinions from Scouters in my own district
and I'm looking for the definitive answer - preferably in writing from
the BSA... Anyone have the final answer? Your source please :).
YiS,
-Tim
--
Tim Hewitt, Scoutmaster
Troop 350, Old Orchard Beach, Maine
Eagle '74
Caro
The "definitive" answer should be coming through OA channels such as the
Chapter Vice Chief for Elections, his OA Chapter Advisor (Chapter is the OA
analog for a District), Lodge Vice Chief for Elections, or the OA Lodge
Advisor (Lodge is the OA analog for a Council).
My personal view is that camping is probably a subset of outings rather
than the other way around. In my mind camping does not include an outing
where the scouts and scouters sleep in cabins. That is not to say that
important scouting skills such as cooking, scoutcraft, and leadership
cannot be developed on cabin outings. It is just to say that camping
refers to having shelter that is something more like a tent or less than a
building like a cabin.
One thing you should also be aware of is that the election procedure has
changed in the last year, and it would now be possible for all 8 of the
scouts you nominate to be elected to the OA. In the past it would not have
been possible for all nominated scouts to get elected to the OA.
Attendance is important for the OA Election because attendance is a factor
in determining whether or not you have a valid election. Check with the
Chapter Vice Chief for Elections to learn exactly what the elections
procedures are at this time. If he says that it is impossible for all of
your nominated scouts to get elected, he is working with old information.
In that case you will need to escalate your election inquiry to the Lodge
level.
Also, you should be aware of the fact that at the Troop OA Election (and
only at the Troop OA Election) it is possible for the Troop Committee to
nominate one scouter to the OA providing they meet the camping and
character requirements. If you are not already a member of the OA, you
should encourage your Troop Committee to nominate you for membership. If
you are already a member of the OA, you should look to encourage the Troop
Committee to nominate another scouter that meets the camping and character
requirements.
Finally, when you are considering scouts to nominate please consider
whether or not they will become active members of the OA rather than
members that simply go through the Ordeal and then never participate in any
other OA activities. Active OA members can be a real asset for your unit,
especially when you have older scouts in the unit.
YiS,
Charles C Caro
Stephen M. Henning
> We are preparing for our first OA election.
> My question is, does cabin camping count towards the 9 days (10 nights)?
This is an extremely ambiguous requirement and has undoubtedly been
satisfied in some Lodges by cabin camping and, in some Lodges, I am sure
an attempt has been made to forbid cabin camping from counting.
Let us look at the ambiguity carefully.
If you allow "cabin camping" [in which the name tries to legitimize
sleeping in a cabin as camping], what is a cabin. If my domicile is made
out of logs and heated by a wood fire, is it a cabin if I sleep in a
sleeping bag and cook my own foode?
If not then I stay and cook in a camp cabin is it cabin camping? And then
we have "trailer camping" and "motor home camping". And "Mall Show
camping", "museum camping", "motel camping" and "resort camping". It just
never ends.
In the camping merit badge pamphlet, camping is defined as sleeping under
the stars or in a tent that the Scout has pitched. I find this to be the
only logical definition and possibly the only definition in BSA
literature. But remember it only counts if the Scouts go to sleep;)
A look at a dictionary backs this up. A "camp" is ground on which
temporary shelters are set up. Camping is to live temporarily in such a
camp. Since it is out of doors the term is frequently camping out.
--
Cheers, Steve Henning, Reading, Pennsylvania, USA
Correct email address is shen...@fast.net (Please forgive my spam deterrent)
Visit my home page at http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning
Brent W. Thiec
Stephen M. Henning wrote in message ...
>
>If not then I stay and cook in a camp cabin is it cabin camping? And then
>we have "trailer camping" and "motor home camping". And "Mall Show
>camping", "museum camping", "motel camping" and "resort camping". It just
>never ends.
>
You forgot "Ticketmaster camping" .....something we all do when we want
good seats at a concert...
BWT
Webmaster for Bergen Council, BSA
Taken from the National OA Site :
http://www.oa-bsa.org/npm98/camping_req.htm
In response to concerns about the possible misinterpretation of the
current camping requirement for OA membership, the National Order of the
Arrow Committee approved a clarification to the existing camping requirement
at their December 27, 1998 meeting. The requirement appears on page 20 of
the 1995 printing of the Guide for Officers and Advisers and was
subsequently modified by Operations Update 96-11. The clarification is as
follows :
"After registration with a troop or team, have experienced fifteen days and
nights of Boy Scout camping during the two-year period prior to the
election. The fifteen days and nights must include one, but no more than
one, long-term camp consisting of six consecutive days and five nights of
resident camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy
Scouts of America. The balance of the camping must be overnight, weekend, or
other short-term camps."
This revised wording will appear in the new edition of the Guide for
Officers and Advisers which is scheduled to be available in April 1999. This
information has been posted at this time to provide a clear understanding of
the requirement as lodges and chapters begin their 1999 unit election
campaigns.
YIS, Rob Coonce
Tim Hewitt wrote in message <36A62A86...@fairchildsemi.com>...
>We are preparing for our first OA election. The troop will be two years
>old in March, and we have boys with as many as 40 nights of camping in
>the past two years. Out of 12 boys, we have 8 that I believe qualify for
>the election process.
>
>I understand the "one and only one long term camp" requirement, but the
>fulfillment of the remaining nights of short term camping is under debate.
>
>My question is, does cabin camping count towards the 9 days (10 nights)?
Reginald "Reggie" Jayne
>and I'm looking for the definitive answer - preferably in writing from
>the BSA... Anyone have the final answer? Your source please :).
>
elections for 1/3rd of Houston a few years ago, This question came up a lot,
We left it up to the individual scoutmaster to decide, I think if you feel
you were camping on those days you were. I think if it was a scout ski trip
in Vail in a condo, maybe not. After doing 300+ elections I say decide for
your self. If you are a new troop I think you should count it. Plus I
notice your in Maine. This TEXAN says it's too cold to camp outdoors up
there anyway!!!
YIS
Reginald Jayne
Scott Bernier
> in Vail in a condo, maybe not. After doing 300+ elections I say decide for
> your self. If you are a new troop I think you should count it. Plus I
> notice your in Maine. This TEXAN says it's too cold to camp outdoors up
> there anyway!!!
(chuckle) This Mainah spent 30 months in exhile in Texas and joined a
bunch of Lubbock Scouts in true winter camping (my only time winter
camping no less!) at Camp Tres Ritos (30 miles 'this side' of Taos) back
in '95. We had to snowshoe through snow 6 feet deep from the main road
into the camp. Those scouts had a blast and didn't complain about the
cold (it was mild and in the 20's during the day, despite the 9,000 ft
elevation).
What helped us was at the time was that the troop that organized this
(can't recall the number) was sponsored by Reese Air Force Base, and one
of their leaders was able to make arrangements with Cannon AFB in NM to
get the winter equipment for the trip.
(sigh) I wish we still got snow like that up heeya instead of this
confounded rain/sleet! We use to, but not for the past few years. You
can't build snow shelters without snow. My council, Pine Tree, is
suppose to be conducting a Winter Camping Training session (dubbed
'Snowbirds') this weekend for scout leaders. Should be an interesting
training session with no real snow on the ground.
YiS,
Scott Bernier, Eagle Scout, 1988
Currently, SM Troop 443, Winslow, Maine Pine Tree Council
Formerly, ASM Troop 140 (and 409 which merged with 140) Lubbock, Texas,
South Plains Council and ASM Troop 56, Plymouth, New 'Hampstah', Daniel
Webster Council
Yes, I've gotten around a little.
sco...@penn.com
Henning) wrote:
>If you allow "cabin camping" [in which the name tries to legitimize
>sleeping in a cabin as camping], what is a cabin. If my domicile is made
>out of logs and heated by a wood fire, is it a cabin if I sleep in a
>sleeping bag and cook my own foode?
>
>If not then I stay and cook in a camp cabin is it cabin camping? And then
>we have "trailer camping" and "motor home camping". And "Mall Show
>camping", "museum camping", "motel camping" and "resort camping". It just
>never ends.
>
>In the camping merit badge pamphlet, camping is defined as sleeping under
>the stars or in a tent that the Scout has pitched. I find this to be the
>only logical definition and possibly the only definition in BSA
>literature. But remember it only counts if the Scouts go to sleep;)
>
I have to disagree with you on this, most summer camps have your tent
already pitched with floors and cots set up and this is considerd
"camping " acording to the requirements. So I usually count all
scouting overnighters.
Scott
Gottshalld
unresolved is the definition of camping. Since the only stipulations are that
the camping take place under the auspices of the BSA and that the event be
defined as overnight, weekend, or short-term camps, it would appear that cabin
camping, lean-to camping, or any troop-defined overnight camping event would
qualify.
David L. Gottshall
Committee Chariman
Troop 502
Woburn, MA
Tim Hewitt
made by the OA. It might have cleared up the process of counting the
days that apply, but as has been noted, it certainly does not clear up
the cabin vs tent issue.
I have not heard back yet from the National OA office. I sent them hard
mail yesterday after not being able to find an email address for anyone.
When I receive an answer, I'll post it here. I've gotten an answer from
my local lodge Advisor - but he also is merely interpreting and has
nothing in writing.
We still have a couple of months before our election so there is time to
get a real answer still :).
Thanks for all your opinions and any hard information anyone can come up
with! I don't want to put boys forward who don't deserve to be, however
I also don't want to hold boys back when others would be sent with the
same requirements met in good conscience by other troops.
John Holladay
CAMP: 1 a: ground on which temporary shelters (as tents) are erected.
The rest (the b-d etc) of it does mention cabins, but it keeps talking
about open air and on the ground. I would not call a cabin 'open' air
nor on the ground.
My simple English says cabins are not camping in the true sense
You know, this is a yearly discussion just before the elections. That
should tell you all something.
JNH.
James Taylor
Everyone needs to understand that National has written a set of
guidelines for the camping requirements that allow the local
council/lodge some latitude in application. This is on purpose.
Different council/lodges have different situations. A hard fast rule
from National would tend to create all sorts of problems that would
generate as many questions as the current vague policy does. Use common
sence. If your geographic location is such that most of your council
camps use Adarondacks(sp), does this mean that every use of those does
not count? The camping requirements for election are basically
certified by the Scoutmaster. If he/they ask for clarification, the
lodge should make a general determination and make it known to all units
so that everyone in that council is playing by the same rules. The rules
in my council may be different, but only in regard to the definition of
"camping", not in the total required. YMMV
--
JimT
James Taylor Red Fox SE-308
jimt.k...@worldnet.att.net Machkeu Wulalowe Sly Red Fox
Klahican 331 Record Keeper Cape Fear Council
1997 National Jamboree Staff Trading Post A
"A good man dies when a boy goes wrong."
Tim Hewitt
[clip]
> You know, this is a yearly discussion just before the elections. That
> should tell you all something.
Sorry. I did not find it in the archives or I would not have asked. I
did read many posts from last year asking about the difference between
long term camp and short term camp, but not the definition of camping.
I have asked National for a written explanation of the camping
requirements, with lots of interesting bits requested. As I said,
experienced Scouters, even OA Vigil members in my Council, have come
down on both sides of this one.
Based on your Webster's interpretation, sleeping in a lean-to or a
bunkhouse after a 10 mile hike would not be accepted. We have a number
of these facilities in the Northeast. The sleeping part is done in a
man-made shelter, often a real "hut" with bunks and doors, but there are
no other facilities (well, sometimes there's an outhouse). In all other
ways, cooking, cleaning, sanitation, you are camping in any sense of the
word. The sleeping part is simply done in a man-made shelter.
What about sleeping on the open ground, in a tent, at a full service
campground with showers, flush toilets, a dining facility and a pool?
Most of us would not consider that "camping" in the true sense, but I
think it satisfies Mr. Webster's definition. I would not think the OA
would accept this type of camping, but it satisfies the "in a tent in
the open" requirement.
I'm not trying to be a pain here, but when requirements are ambiguous,
they are satisfied by a wide array of choices. The OA Camping
requirements for membership are written with ambiguity, and it seems
they have been interpreted in opposing fashion by many Scouters in the
past. I would simply like to even the playing field - even if the answer
is it's all up to the Scoutmaster to determine if a particular camping
experience qualifies. At least then we all know and follow the same rules.
Tim Hewitt
[clip]
> Everyone needs to understand that National has written a set of
> guidelines for the camping requirements that allow the local
> council/lodge some latitude in application. This is on purpose.
> Different council/lodges have different situations. A hard fast rule
> from National would tend to create all sorts of problems that would
> generate as many questions as the current vague policy does. Use common
> sence. If your geographic location is such that most of your council
> camps use Adarondacks(sp), does this mean that every use of those does
> not count? The camping requirements for election are basically
> certified by the Scoutmaster. If he/they ask for clarification, the
> lodge should make a general determination and make it known to all units
> so that everyone in that council is playing by the same rules. The rules
> in my council may be different, but only in regard to the definition of
> "camping", not in the total required. YMMV
Nice thought, but here is the phone quote from the National OA office,
from an email exchange with someone who spoke with them to try to
resolve this issue. I'll not quote the source, but he can pipe in if he
wants to do so.
'She said that cabin camping has never been considered
sufficient for OA and that "Baden Powell would roll over
in his grave if we started doing that"'
This does not leave it open to the Scoutmaster's interpretation - except
for maybe defining what a cabin is (Adirondack style tean-to's allowed,
cabins with doors not allowed maybe?).
This is why I've asked for the actual policy in writing, because the
interpretation is applied so broadly.
John Gilln
the ballot.
I cannot imagine a chapter election team questioning the Scoutmaster about each
of the 15 days and nights of Boy Scout camping for each of the potential
candidates. Even if there was an official definition of camping, questioning
the Scoutmaster would not be prudent. Most Scoutmasters has the wherewithal to
determine which scouts truly meet the requirements (in other words, which
scouts are the "honor campers").
If the Scoutmaster includes someone who is "borderline," I would think that
the election process will likely reconcile the situation.
After being away from the direct involvement with the OA for a few years, I did
not know that the election process had changed. I need to get a new book and
read carefully.
Tim, your concern about who is truly eligible for OA membership makes me
believe that you are a very competent, concerned Scoutmaster. I believe that
if you get no further clarification, you will make the right decisions.
I just realized that I have participated in e-Bay bids with you for Official
Boy Scout Bugles. I hope that you have found a good one. I finally did.
Best wishes,
º ¸ º John Gillian
~ Bartlesville, Oklahoma
Caro
I feel that an OA Elections team, even though they are "only" boys, does
have the responsibility for ensuring that the scouts nominated by the
Scoutmaster are truly eligible. In most cases the Elections need only
ensure that the eligibility criteria for nomination is fully understood by
the Scoutmaster.
This OA Elections team duty is very important because once an OA Election
is certified there is no way to undue the election should a discrepancy be
discovered at a later date. One District in my Council learned that lesson
the hard way a year or so ago when it was discovered that the combination
of a Scoutmaster unaware of the meaning of the nomination criteria and an
OA Elections team that was afraid to accept their duty and responsibility
in ensuring the eligibility of the scouts nominated by an uninformed
Scoutmaster wound up in the election certification of a scout that was
eleven years old, barely a First Class Scout, and his "camping" requirement
was met by including 6 days of "camping experience" at Day Camp while he
was a Webelos Scout. The Lodge did not learn of the boys true "camping
experience" until he had already started his Ordeal. By that time it was
too late to do anything except admit that the Chapter had to focus more on
OA Election team training and unit leader education.
Charles C Caro
Stephen M. Henning
> I feel that an OA Elections team, even though they are "only" boys, does
> have the responsibility for ensuring that the scouts nominated by the
> Scoutmaster are truly eligible. In most cases the Elections need only
> ensure that the eligibility criteria for nomination is fully understood by
> the Scoutmaster.
I agree 100%, the election team is only responsible to make sure the
Scoutmaster knows the election rules. The election team is not the
camping police, just the election police. The Scoutmaster's word is all
that is necessary. If a boy turns out not to be elegibile, then the
Scoutmaster is at fault, not the boy.
--
Cheers, Steve Henning, Reading, Pennsylvania, USA
Correct email address is shen...@fast.net (Please forgive my spam deterrent)
Visit my home page at http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning