Tenderfoot/Arrow of Light
WDNICOL
I know this subject has been discussed before but I still need some
clarification.
My SM, I am a new CC, states that any scout that has been awarded the
Arrow of Light from Cubs is automatically promoted to Tenderfoot after one
month in Scouts. I say no, it may have been a few years ago but not now.
Any opinions?
ps. There wasn't even a BOR for the scouts.
Walter Nicol
T180 Allentown NJ
coy veach
Your SM may be confusing Tenderfoot and Scout Rank. Many of the
requirements for Scout Rank are covered by the Arrow of Light
Requirements. Scout rank is not automatic, and there is no time
requirement. A BOR is not required for Scout Rank but boys must have a
Scoutmaster Conference for Scout Rank. We also require parents to
complete the "youth protection" requirements in the front of the book.
Coy Veach
SM T591
Arlington, Texas
SER118
I have been in the Boy Scouting program for almost three years (Cub Scouts
for six) and I have never heard of anyone being "automatically" promoted
to anything. I served as advancement chairman for the troop for one year,
and this never came up. There are definite requirements for Tenderfoot as
outlined in the Boy Scout Handbook which are not addressed in Cub
Scouting. If I were you, I'd get a copy of the handbook and see if you
can determine what the Scoutmaster's reasoning is regarding this subject.
If not, let him tell/show you. In my opinion, anytime a boy is allowed to
skip requirements or pass them off in a casual way, the only one hurt is
the boy.
Regards,
Steve
James K Nelsen
Although the Arrow of Ligt entails many of the requirements for Scout and
Tenderfoot, they should not be automatically awarded. Although the
scouts may have learned the skill at one time, they must demonstrate that
they still know it as Boy Scouts.
In my experiance, most Webelos Dens do not put these basic scouting
skills into practice in such a way that guarantees they still know the
material as Boy Scouts. For example, I have had many new parents tell me
their sons should automatically get Scout upon entering the troop. But
can they recite the Scout Oath or Law? Can they tie a square knot? Once
in a while, we get a boy who can but more often they cannot.
Ask your Scoutmaster what the purpose of advancement is. Is it advancement
for advancement's sake so that all boys will be First Class in a year and
Eagle by age 14, or is it about learning valuable skills and rewarding
hard work? As we have discussed in this group before, too many Scouters
nowadays have begun to think that advancement is an aim of scouting
instead of a method (one of eight).
--Jim
Don Wall
too many Scouters
> nowadays have begun to think that advancement is an aim of scouting
> instead of a method (one of eight).
>
> --Jim
Unfortunately, this is also true in Cub Scouting; I have seen Den Leaders
whose boys had so many arrow points on their shirts that they leaned to
one side. More often than we like to admit, the purpose of the learning
of skills takes second place to collecting badges.
Don Wall
Cubmaster
Pack 66
Saugus, Massachusetts
Roger Tipley
James K Nelsen <jne...@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in article
<5qiiev$3...@uwm.edu>...
> Although the Arrow of Ligt entails many of the requirements for Scout and
> Tenderfoot, they should not be automatically awarded. Although the
> scouts may have learned the skill at one time, they must demonstrate that
> they still know it as Boy Scouts.
>...
The Scout Rank should never, ever be an automatic thing. It is probably
overlooked, but I rank its importance to be higher than Tenderfoot. The
key part of earning the Scout Rank is to "understand and agree to live by
the scout oath and law". they aren't required to know it by heart until
Tenderfoot, but they must understand what ALL of the parts of the oath and
law mean, so that they can be held accountable to them.
My most effective weapon to deal with misbehaviour is not to rant and rave,
but to sternly tell them which points of the Scout law and oath that they
are personally falling short on. I've seen this approach work on
everything from cutting in line at summer camp, to truly serious safety
infractions.
The Arrow of Light is a true honor, and a worthy goal of Cub Scouting, but
it is not the same as the Scout Rank. Boy Scouts is not Cub Scouts, and
achieving the Scout Rank helps to etch the differences in the boys'
minds...that they will now be held to a new set of standards, that were
never "required" in Cub Scouting. This new set of standards is a
necessity, so that they can safely meet the new challenges that will be
presented to them as active Boy Scouts.
They learned the words as a Cub Scout. They live the meaning as a Boy
Scout.
YiS,
Roger Tipley
ASM Houston, TX
I used to be a Beaver... of SR-202
Sven Johannsen
On 16 Jul 1997 13:31:11 GMT, jne...@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (James K
Nelsen) wrote:
>
Snip some stuff>
>In my experiance, most Webelos Dens do not put these basic scouting
>skills into practice in such a way that guarantees they still know the
>material as Boy Scouts. For example, I have had many new parents tell me
>their sons should automatically get Scout upon entering the troop. But
>can they recite the Scout Oath or Law? Can they tie a square knot? Once
>in a while, we get a boy who can but more often they cannot.
>
snip some more stuff>
>--Jim
While I agree with the majority of the comments on focusing on the
aims of scouting, I would like to point out that it seems folks often
forget to re-read the requirements. Specifically, reciting the Scout
Oath and Law is not a Scout requirement, it is a Tenderfoot
requirement. To earn Scout the boy only has to pledge to live by those
words. There is very little the youth has to demonstrate to be
eligible for Scout. The Square Knot is the only one I recall of the
top of my head. The rest are pretty much "agree to" types of things.
With the exception of the drug do-hickey stuck in the front of the
books that the parents are supposed to do, all the Scout stuff can be
accomplished at the initial Scoutmaster conference, including remedial
training in square knot tying. When we get to the Oath and Law parts
if the boy knows them he gets those Tenderfoot requirements signed
off. If not he raises his hand in the scout sign (pledging) and reads
them to me.
Sven
Larry Weiss
Sven Johannsen wrote:
> While I agree with the majority of the comments on focusing on the
> aims of scouting, I would like to point out that it seems folks often
> forget to re-read the requirements. Specifically, reciting the Scout
> Oath and Law is not a Scout requirement, it is a Tenderfoot
> requirement. To earn Scout the boy only has to pledge to live by those
> words. There is very little the youth has to demonstrate to be
> eligible for Scout. The Square Knot is the only one I recall of the
> top of my head. The rest are pretty much "agree to" types of things.
> With the exception of the drug do-hickey stuck in the front of the
> books that the parents are supposed to do, all the Scout stuff can be
> accomplished at the initial Scoutmaster conference, including remedial
> training in square knot tying. When we get to the Oath and Law parts
> if the boy knows them he gets those Tenderfoot requirements signed
> off. If not he raises his hand in the scout sign (pledging) and reads
> them to me.
From: http://www.usscouts.scouter.com/bsrank1.html
Scout Rank Requirements
1. Complete the fifth grade, or be 11 years old, or have earned
the Arrow of Light Award, but be younger than 18 years old.
2. Submit a completed Boy Scout application and health history
signed by your parent or guardian.
3. Repeat the Pledge of Allegiance.
4. Demonstrate the Scout sign, salute, and handclasp.
5. Demonstrate tying the square knot (joining knot).
6. Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or promise,
Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code.
7. Describe the Scout badge.
8. With your parent or guardian, complete the exercises in
the pamphlet "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse
and Drug Abuse".
9. Participate in a Scoutmaster conference.
Aaron Kuperman
I think it came out in SCOUTING magazine earlier this year (in a history
of Webelos??), that originally the Webelos program and the "Arrow of
light" were set up as a way for Lion Scouts to start work on their
Tenderfoot requirements, but that is no longer the case (Webelos now have
other things to do). I believe that if someone has actually earned the
"Arrow of light" they've met all the requirements for the initial
membership badge, though I suspect that Scoutmasters might be a little
more strict in determining what constitutes "meeting requirements" than
parents and/or Webelos Den Leaders. --Aaron (This is a private note,
posted during lunch time)
WDNICOL (wdn...@aol.com) wrote:
: I know this subject has been discussed before but I still need some
m chevillet
Talk to your Unit Commissioner or ADC in your District...Get a name and
phone number from your District Coimmissioner or Executive...Lame
Beaver...Owls rule
Philip Brodeur
WDNICOL wrote:
>
> I know this subject has been discussed before but I still need some
> clarification.
> My SM, I am a new CC, states that any scout that has been awarded the
> Arrow of Light from Cubs is automatically promoted to Tenderfoot after one
> month in Scouts. I say no, it may have been a few years ago but not now.
> Any opinions?
>
> ps. There wasn't even a BOR for the scouts.
>
> Walter Nicol
> T180 Allentown NJ
I suspect that your Scoutmaster meant "SCOUT," not "TENDERFOOT."
Boys who have completed the ARROW OF LIGHT have not completed the requirements
for the SCOUT rank but are well on the way. For instance, they should know the
Boy Scout salute, hand shake, and sign. On the other hand, no Cub has ever had a
Scoutmaster Conference.
Phil Brodeur
Cubmaster, Pack 180
Committee Member, Troop 180
Ludlow, MA
James K Nelsen
Philip Brodeur (PWBr...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Boys who have completed the ARROW OF LIGHT have not completed the requirements
: Boy Scout salute, hand shake, and sign. On the other hand, no Cub has ever had a
: Scoutmaster Conference.
The operative word is *should* Many don't know the Oath, Law, handshake,
etc.
--Jim
John Holladay
Right on. Of the 30 boys we got in this year, almost all with the Arrow
of Light, non could cover the requirements for Scout/Tenderfoot with out
going back to the book. Further, this is a great opportunity (as
another poster mentioned) to go over the law right out of the book. It
really helps to make sure that part of the Scout Handbook is understood.
Have a good day.
John “Doc” Holladay
ASM, T1000, Plano, Tx
James K Nelsen wrote:
'
John Scott Mackey
> The Scout Rank should never, ever be an automatic thing. It is probably
> overlooked, but I rank its importance to be higher than Tenderfoot. The
> key part of earning the Scout Rank is to "understand and agree to live by
> the scout oath and law".
I two believe this, now it would be nice to get local councils and BSA
national to lend substance to our belief by tracking this rank as they do
the others.
James K Nelsen
John Scott Mackey (j-ma...@com.mcn.net) wrote:
: > The Scout Rank should never, ever be an automatic thing. It is probably
Part of the problem is that the BSA does not really consider Scout a
rank even though it is. A quick look at the Advancement Guidelines will
show you that they still say there are only 6 ranks. This makes no sense
considering that Scout requires a Scoutmaster's conference and they get a
pocket card for it, thought the pocket card only has to be signed by the
Scoutmaster not the Scoutmaster and the SPL like the other ranks. In my
opinion this is a problem, and it should be corrected.
--Jim
Derek Alexander Pillie
James K Nelsen (jne...@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
Well, I agree that Scout distinction is important, however, I wouldn't
equate it with a "rank" per se.
I would consider it to be more of a trial period. The Scouting program
has something to offer everyone, although it might not be for everyone.
Progression to earning your distinction as a Scout revolves around gaining
an understanding of what a Boy Scout is and what Scouting is really
about. I would equate earning Scout distinction with understanding what
it is to be a scout and agreeing to live by those terms.
Derek
--
Derek Alexander Pillie------------------------------------------------------
dpi...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu c/o Rob Hendin
1 C State Street 2140 L St., NW #604
Lansdale, PA 19446 Washington, DC 20037
(215) 361-2574 (202) 887-8495
My home page is at: http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~dpillie
The OA Online Resources page is located at:
http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~dpillie/oa/index.html
"There is no country where the law can foresee everything or where
institutions should take the place of reason and mores."
- Alexis de Tocqueville
Lawrence Faust
Ho, all--
An interesting corollary to this discussion is whether Tiger Cubs earning
Big Idea #17 should automatically get Bobcat upon graduation to Wolf.
For what it's worth, my Tigers DID. Part of Big Idea#17 are the
requirements for Bobcat. They're happy and busily working on Wolf, parents
are happy, I'm happy. To my way of thinking, the program's not been
compromised.
Other opinions?
-------------------------------
Scouting is a way of life,
Larry ;-)
Cub Scout Pack 303
Gulf Ridge Council
(visit us at http://rio.atlantic.net/~lfaust/pack303/index.html)
UIN: 657022
WDNICOL <wdn...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970716112...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Tony R. Diller
In article <01bc984e$e635fc60$23c6...@Commonwealth.atlantic.net>,
When I was a Tiger group leader several years back our final activity
was working towards the bobcat level. At our summer picnic when the
kids bride up to the next level the tigers got the bobcat badge.
The bobcat is not that difficult.
Now that my son has moved up to boy scouts he has to meet the requirements
fo rscouts and does so willingly but seems to have a bit of a jump over
those who didn't get the arrow of light. I think this makes the transition
a bit easier but should not be an automatic thing.
James K Nelsen
Derek Alexander Pillie (dpi...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu) wrote:
: I would consider it to be more of a trial period. The Scouting program
: has something to offer everyone, although it might not be for everyone.
: Progression to earning your distinction as a Scout revolves around gaining
: an understanding of what a Boy Scout is and what Scouting is really
: about. I would equate earning Scout distinction with understanding what
: it is to be a scout and agreeing to live by those terms.
I still see this as a problem since the present requirements for Scout
are very much like the original Tenderfoot requirements. Tenderfoot was
considered a rank since 1911 event hough its only required the Oath, Law,
motto, etc. and a few knots. If Tenderfoot could be a rank then, then
why is Scout not a rank now.
--Jim
Tim Grissom
Last year I was Tiger group coach (or whatever they call it now).
Anyway, I assumed that the idea behind big idea 17 was so indeed the
boys could receive their Wolf at graduation. Well the cubmaster
disagreed. His point was that in order to be a "Wolf" the scout must
be in the 2nd grade or 7 years old. granted some were 7 but not all.
We hold aour graduation in May prior to the kids getting out of school
and becomming "Second Grade". He indicated that he asked council about
this and this was the answer. Soooo My tigers, who worked hard to
learn and understand the Bobcat requirements will not get their rank
until the September pack meeting.
Personaly I think this is crap but.... I am no longer cubmaster and so
I deal with it.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy G. Grissom * Nortel Technologies * Research Triangle Park, NC
*
(esn) 294-7496 * (phone) (919) 991-7496 * (e-mail) tgri...@nortel.ca
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Support the anti-Spam amendment
Join at http://www.cauce.org/
Stan DCmr
Date: 07/25/97
To: tgri...@nortel.ca
<< Last year I was Tiger group coach ... I assumed that the idea behind
big idea 17 was so indeed the boys could receive their Wolf at graduation.
Well the cubmaster disagreed. His point was that in order to be a "Wolf"
the scout must be in the 2nd grade or 7 years old. granted some were 7 but
not all. We hold our graduation in May prior to the kids getting out of
school and becomming "Second Grade". He indicated that he asked council
about this and this was the answer. Soooo My tigers, who worked hard to
learn and understand the Bobcat requirements will not get their rank
until the September pack meeting.
>>
There is the letter of the rules and there is the spirit of the rules...
If I understand your writing correctly (that you wanted them to graduate
into a Wolf Den and to receive their Bobcat badges at the May graduation
ceremony), the Cubmaster and Council may well be correct as to the
letter... but certainly not in the spirit... of the rules. (From what you
wrote, I am not sure that the question was posed correctly.)
Part of the point to a spring gradution is that the boys spend the summer
months, including day camp and pack summertime activities, earning credits
toward their next ranks. The lack of a "graduation ceremony" in the
spring does not prevent them from doing just that, but it loses so much
impact... it would be worth holding a June meeting (just after the boys
formally commence to the next grade) to give that impact.
Interestingly enough, many areas hold "spring roundups" to recruit then
first grade boys into new Wolf Dens which will function over the summer
and on into the next year. Do they really not consider those new recruits
to be Wolf Den members until after the end of the school year, which may
not occur for another 2 or 3 weeks? Of course they do!
My copy of Advancement Policies and Procedures does not address the Tiger
Cub issue... so I guess we have to rely on the Council for the "letter of
the law."
(I presently serve as Council Advancement Chairman, so I guess I had
better get a handle on this kind of question, too!)
.
Regards,
Stan Pope (Lilchpin Elangomat)
A volunteer Scouter for W.D. Boyce Council, BSA, Peoria, IL
http://members.aol.com/StanDCmr/index.html with original info on Pinewood Derby Car Design, Commmissioning and other "Scouty Stuff"
stan...@aol.com
Lawrence Faust
Ho, Tim---
Tim Grissom <tgri...@nortel.ca> wrote....
> Last year I was Tiger group coach (or whatever they call it now).
> Anyway, I assumed that the idea behind big idea 17 was so indeed the
> boys could receive their Wolf at graduation. Well the cubmaster
> disagreed.
And well he should have. If you read the requirements of #17 and those for
BOBCAT (not Wolf!), you'll find that after the Tiger Cub earns #17, he's
done the requirements for Bobcat.
Bobcat is only the "joining rank" for Cub Scouts. The requirements for
Wolf are considerably more involved.
> His point was that in order to be a "Wolf" the scout must
> be in the 2nd grade or 7 years old. granted some were 7 but not all.
Those are the AGE requirements only. There are several additional
requirements the boy must meet before the Wolf Badge is awarded.
> We hold aour graduation in May prior to the kids getting out of school
> and becomming "Second Grade". He indicated that he asked council about
> this and this was the answer.
Something got lost in translation between Council, your CM and you.
> Soooo My tigers, who worked hard to
> learn and understand the Bobcat requirements will not get their rank
> until the September pack meeting.
NO!!! They worked hard on their Bobcat, so they get their Bobcat badges at
graduation or at the VERY NEXT PACK MEETING (if not sooner). This is
imperative and must be corrected IMMEDIATELY (run, don't walk!)
If they did not get their Bobcat badges at graduation OR if they were told
that they'd get their Wolf upon graduation, the program's been compromised
and you've got a REALLY big problem with both boys & parents.
OTOH, if they work hard on their WOLF achievements, they can get that
badge at the Sept. pack meeting (some of my Bobcats will).
>
> Personaly I think this is crap but.... I am no longer cubmaster and so I
deal with it.
It may BE crap, but it sounds to me like it stems from a minor
misunderstanding of the Tiger/Wolf program which blew up. Good luck in
"dealing with it"!
My advice is to award the former Tigers who did #17 with their Bobcats at
the earliest available moment & to get them moving toward earning Wolf
(follow the Wolf book & the Cub Scout Leader Book).
Tim Grissom
Lawrence,
Thanks for the reply... Yes you are 100% right about the WOLF
qualifications...
I was obviously asleep when composing that letter. I ment to say
BOBCAT. So anywhere you read WOLF befor, substitue BOBCAT and we
should be in agreement....
Thanks again,
Tim Grissom
-----------------------------
Lawrence Faust wrote:
Ho, Tim---