Cutting Corners
Jim Peterson
Recently I read on a rec.scouting newsgroup that National considers
cutting the corners off a Scout's Totin' Chip card a form of hazing. Just
this past weekend I attended a District Camporee where Webelos crossing
over into Boy Scouts were given a Totin' Chip primer on knife and ax
safety. I presented the knife portion, while an ASM from another unit
provided the ax portion. In his part, he discussed what the Totin' Chip
was and described what might happen if they were observed using a knife
or ax in an unsafe manner. The long and short of it is, the practice of
cutting corners off a Totin' Chip card is still in use in this District
and, upon questioning the Scoutmaster of our Troop, I found that it is
practiced in our Troop. So here are my questions:
1) Where did this practice come from? I can't find a reference to it in
the Scout Handbook; it only says "I realize that my 'totin' rights'
can be taken away from me if I fail to follow these requirements",
following the Totin' Chip requirements.
2) Where is the opinion written that cutting corners off a Scouts
Totin' Chip is considered a form of hazing? I can't find any
reference to hazing in either the Scout Handbook or Scoutmaster's
Handbook. If it is against BSA policy to cut corners off a Scout'
Totin' Chip, how are the rank and file supposed to know this?
I would appreciate any answers to these questions. Thank you in advance.
YiS,
Jim Peterson
Cubmaster, Pack 379 - Advancement Chair, Troop 379
Auburndale, Wisconsin
jim.pe...@tznet.com
Skip J Van Bloem
In article <4mohon$5...@news.paonline.com>,
Jim Peterson <jim.pe...@tznet.com> wrote:
snipped scenario cutting corners off totin'chit cards
> 1) Where did this practice come from? I can't find a reference to it in
> the Scout Handbook; it only says "I realize that my 'totin' rights'
> can be taken away from me if I fail to follow these requirements",
> following the Totin' Chip requirements.
I think there never was an official policy, its just a urban Scouting legend
that some folks practice. Those of you out there with pre-70s scouting
experience can clarify??
>
> 2) Where is the opinion written that cutting corners off a Scouts
> Totin' Chip is considered a form of hazing? I can't find any
> reference to hazing in either the Scout Handbook or Scoutmaster's
> Handbook. If it is against BSA policy to cut corners off a Scout'
> Totin' Chip, how are the rank and file supposed to know this?
>
My guess is that it is covered in, anything which singles a boy out for
embarassment or harassment is considered hazing. The practice seems
unnecessary to me. Use a goof up as an opportunity to teach/learn. Have him
explain the problem. If problems continue, don't allow him to use an axe/knife
at all. After all, what good is a card with a corner off of it if the
safety-hazard scout is still a hazard?
skip van bloem
John Kelleher
In article <4moopb$g...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
svan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Skip J Van Bloem) wrote:
> My guess is that it is covered in, anything which singles a boy out for
> embarassment or harassment is considered hazing.
You're probably right, and this is another case of going to somewhat
ridiculous extremes. One of these days somebody will notice that one of
Scouting's most embarrassing moments is failing a board of review and
cancel the whole advancement program.
> Use a goof up as an opportunity to teach/learn. Have him
> explain the problem. If problems continue, don't allow him to use an
> axe/knife at all. After all, what good is a card with a corner off of
> it if the safety-hazard scout is still a hazard?
I agree completely with the sentiment. If I see kids playing mumbly-pegs
with a large axe and each other's heads, I don't see if they've lost 3
corners - I remove the axe! But in slighter transgressions, losing a
corner of your card serves as a valid reminder.
The number if incidents each year with axe and knife, as with fire,
indicates that we are right to have a special concern about their proper
use. Are boys embarrassed when they are called to task? Perhaps. But I
for one would rather ask a boy quietly for his Toten' Chip than ask one of
his friends to get the tourniquet from the first aid kit.
John
Paul Schnettler
svan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Skip J Van Bloem) writes:
>In article <4mohon$5...@news.paonline.com>,
>Jim Peterson <jim.pe...@tznet.com> wrote:
>snipped scenario cutting corners off totin'chit cards
>> 1) Where did this practice come from? I can't find a reference to it in
>> the Scout Handbook; it only says "I realize that my 'totin' rights'
>> can be taken away from me if I fail to follow these requirements",
>> following the Totin' Chip requirements.
>I think there never was an official policy, its just a urban Scouting legend
>that some folks practice. Those of you out there with pre-70s scouting
>experience can clarify??
Well, since I was a scout in the late 60's/early 70's, i guess I can attempt
to clarify. I don't know where it started, but my district followed the custom
of clipping corners. I imagine it was more to keep track of the number of times
a scout was "reminded" of his responsibility toward safe use of sharp tools.
I don't recall feeling singled out or hazed. Most of my peers at the time had a
corner cut. Remember being a tenderfoot scout?
I don't think the current quest for PC attitudes views the corner cutting in
quite the same way. It's viewed as hazing and a means to ridicule, in some
scouting circles. Some districts follow the practice, some don't.
In the troop I assist, our policy is to cut a corner only if a stronger message
needs to be sent over the normal assistance and guidance that is required when
demonstrating to a younger scout.
Being too long winded already, I'll step off the soap box now...
>>
>> 2) Where is the opinion written that cutting corners off a Scouts
>> Totin' Chip is considered a form of hazing? I can't find any
>> reference to hazing in either the Scout Handbook or Scoutmaster's
>> Handbook. If it is against BSA policy to cut corners off a Scout'
>> Totin' Chip, how are the rank and file supposed to know this?
>>
>My guess is that it is covered in, anything which singles a boy out for
>embarassment or harassment is considered hazing. The practice seems
>unnecessary to me. Use a goof up as an opportunity to teach/learn. Have him
>explain the problem. If problems continue, don't allow him to use an axe/knife
>at all. After all, what good is a card with a corner off of it if the
>safety-hazard scout is still a hazard?
>skip van bloem
James K Nelsen
: > 2) Where is the opinion written that cutting corners off a Scouts
: > Totin' Chip is considered a form of hazing? I can't find any
: > reference to hazing in either the Scout Handbook or Scoutmaster's
: > Handbook. If it is against BSA policy to cut corners off a Scout'
: > Totin' Chip, how are the rank and file supposed to know this?
: >
: My guess is that it is covered in, anything which singles a boy out for
: embarassment or harassment is considered hazing. The practice seems
: unnecessary to me. Use a goof up as an opportunity to teach/learn. Have him
: explain the problem. If problems continue, don't allow him to use an axe/knife
: at all. After all, what good is a card with a corner off of it if the
: safety-hazard scout is still a hazard?
It's not hazing if you don't do it in public or use it as a tool to
humiliate the boy. It's just a reminder to him to be more careful, and it's
also a good way for a Scoutmaster to see how many times he has misused wood
tools. I lost a corner when I was Second Class because I misused a saw. Was I
upset about it at the time? Sure I was, but I also remembered never to do
anything unsafe again. In fact, I think about losing that corner every time
I pick up a saw today.
--Jim
dk0...@cnsvax.albany.edu
>>> Totin' Chip is considered a form of hazing? I can't find any
>>> reference to hazing in either the Scout Handbook or Scoutmaster's
>>> Handbook. If it is against BSA policy to cut corners off a Scout'
>>> Totin' Chip, how are the rank and file supposed to know this?
>>>
>>My guess is that it is covered in, anything which singles a boy out for
>>embarassment or harassment is considered hazing. The practice seems
>>unnecessary to me. Use a goof up as an opportunity to teach/learn. Have him
>>explain the problem. If problems continue, don't allow him to use an axe/knife
>>at all. After all, what good is a card with a corner off of it if the
>>safety-hazard scout is still a hazard?
>
>
When would you restrict a scout from using a bladed tool? After 2 corners 3?
Most people I know have never had more than one corner taken off, ( I had one
cut off myself, never forget) but if a scout reaches 3 corners should one wait
until the next accident to take the last corner?
Dan
Mike
In our Troop, we discuss cutting off corners as minor infractions occure
with the idea being that the card and its privileges will roll away.
In practice we do not cut the card at all, rather the scout is reminded
of the safety rules. If he continues in in unsafe manor a second time,
he must teach a toten chip class to other scouts or Webelos. If this
does not cure the problem then the scout loses his toten chip privileges
until he takes the class again as a student. (It should be noted that we
have refresher classes as a rule and the students do not know if their
instructor was picked because he was good or careless.)
If making him teach the class is hazzing, I would rather be repermanded
for that than have to take a scout home missing parts.
Mike
Paul Schnettler
dk0...@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU writes:
>When would you restrict a scout from using a bladed tool? After 2 corners 3?
>Most people I know have never had more than one corner taken off, ( I had one
>cut off myself, never forget) but if a scout reaches 3 corners should one wait
>until the next accident to take the last corner?
> Dan
Do you really need a hard and fast rule to determine when a scout should be
restricted. I would argue that the penalty is determined by the severity of
the misuse. I'd take a scout's card away over corner cutting if the situation
warranted it.
The bigger question is: why is this such an issue? Common sense should always
take preference over questions as to what's correct or appropriate (as it
relates to your ability to administer a specific program). You are always going
to have parents/guardians that question your methods. If you take time to explain the goals and methods to achieve that goal, most parents enthusiastically
support your methods. A totin chip card "used correctly" can be a valuable tool
in helping a young scout learn to respect and use sharp tools. Seems to me that
questions as to whether it's appropriate to clip a card corner or two point to
deeper problems with the scoutmasters ability to administer a specific program.
JMHO...
Paul Schnettler
ASM troop 164 Stoughton, WI
Margaret Chase
I just posted, on rec.Scouting, a note about words to songs.
Bill Sheehan
dk0...@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU wrote:
>>>>
>>>My guess is that it is covered in, anything which singles a boy out for
>>>embarassment or harassment is considered hazing. The practice seems
>>>unnecessary to me. Use a goof up as an opportunity to teach/learn.
Question: Some boys aren't going to learn by talking, sometimes you're
gonna talk till your blue in the face for nothing. How would I know
if YOU didn't cut the corner off at the LAST campout?
If I ask to see the card and see two or more corners cut off, I may
not give the kid an axe or I may make sure he's checked out before I
let him cut. It's not a hazing it's a protection. We all understand
why the BMV tracks points on bad drivers. When you get too many you
can't drive. Why is it hazing or not needed to prevent a kid from
cutting off his/your hand, leg, or according to legend killing
himself? Cut off a corner, it's a warning for the rest of us, too.
jnelson
Jim Peterson (jim.pe...@tznet.com) wrote:
: Recently I read on a rec.scouting newsgroup that National considers
: YiS,
: Jim Peterson
: Cubmaster, Pack 379 - Advancement Chair, Troop 379
: Auburndale, Wisconsin
: jim.pe...@tznet.com
Well, what is hazing? According to Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary:
1) A light suspension of water vapor, smoke, dust, etc., in the air
2) Mental confusion
3) to subject (newcomers or initiates) to pranks and humiliating horseplay.
I don't read anything here that say's that pointing out unsafe behavior
is hazing. The corner should be torn off at the time of the infraction,
and the entire troop shouldn't be called to watch or torment the infractor.
Jim, I suggest if your really concerned, you should contact your DE and ask
him/her this question. While the DE's aren't always right(shhh, don't tell
mine i said that), you have a higher percentage chance of getting the right
answer than on the internet. The internet is great for sharing ideas, but
you should always get policy info straight from your council.
John Nelson
Eagle Scout '79
Troop Committee Member
--
dk0...@cnsvax.albany.edu
Dan
Dale B. Thompson
jnelson wrote:
The internet is great for sharing ideas, but
> you should always get policy info straight from your council.
>
> John Nelson
> Eagle Scout '79
> Troop Committee Member
WELL SAID.
All should heed when exponding their interpertation of what BSA policy is,
and all should heed what they read on the net. 800,000,000 + - a couple
experts on BSA policy subscribe to the net and all have their personnel
opinions
Nuff Said
Dale B Thompson
Great Scoutwest Ex Paso
used to be a beaver and a fox and a recycle for slowness several times
> --getting older and spelling seems to be first to suffer> --
The Great Unkown
Word got to me this Fall that the National council now considered
making scouts who curse do pushup's hazing. This was evidently part of a
large change in BSA policy which clasifys ANY physical punishment (even self
inflicted) as hazing. I'm not an expert on this, and I've haven't even
seen this in writing but evidently the change was important enough for
the president of our council to spend quite a while lecturing on it at
the last council round table.
-Hunter
TOMASCO970
>Recently I read on a rec.scouting newsgroup that National considers
>cutting the corners off a Scout's Totin' Chip card a form of hazing.
I would like the specific reference to this national policy.
Tom Massey
Scoutmaster Troop 8
Bird-In-Hand, Pa.
Skip J Van Bloem
In article <31940D...@primenet.com>,
Dale B. Thompson <dal...@primenet.com> wrote:
>jnelson wrote:
>The internet is great for sharing ideas, but
>> you should always get policy info straight from your council.
>>
>> John Nelson
>> Eagle Scout '79
>> Troop Committee Member
>> HOOWAH
>
>WELL SAID.
DITTO THAT.
>
skip van bloem
Skip J Van Bloem
In article <4mtkpm$f...@antares.en.com>, Bill Sheehan <w...@en.com> wrote:
>dk0...@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU wrote:
>
I wrote this part....
>>>>My guess is that it is covered in, anything which singles a boy out for
>>>>embarassment or harassment is considered hazing. The practice seems
>>>>unnecessary to me. Use a goof up as an opportunity to teach/learn.
>
>Question: Some boys aren't going to learn by talking, sometimes you're
>gonna talk till your blue in the face for nothing. How would I know
>if YOU didn't cut the corner off at the LAST campout?
Presumably your troop has enough continuity in adult leadership and
communication among such, that at least one of the same adults would be present
at each campout (like the SM) to know which Scouts are blade-hazards. Yes,
some scouts will not learn by talking, just take the TnC from them as I
suggested in the latter part of the above post. Personally, I have no problem
with cutting corners, as long as it isn't public and done with consistency and
care. My statement above started with, "MY GUESS IS " That's it. My guess
based on living through the elimination of contact during tap-out ceremonies
and having been in a fraternity that got a new liability insurance policy while
I was there. The legal def of hazing is different than Webster, much more
liberal for the plaintiff.
skip van bloem
Jim Peterson
Tom,
That is exactly what I was asking for in the first place. If it is a
national policy I would like to be able to point that out to the corner
cutters in my district. If there is no formal policy against cutting
Totin' Chip corners, I will aproach my campaign in a more tactful,
educational manner. It is my position that cutting off a corner of the
card and leaving the edged-tool in the hands of an unsafe user is
counter-productive. I will be encouraging the Scouters in my district to
use other means of instructing Scouts...instead of taking a corner off
the card, take the ax (or knife) out of the Scout's hand until such time
as he can be re-educated on it's proper use. I don't see the advantage of
whittling off the corners of the card, although I also don't personally
see it as a form of hazing either. By the way, I have taken the advice of
another member of tis list, sorry I don't remember who, and refered this
question to the District Executive. The reason I brought it up here in
the first place is that this is where I first heard that National had a
position on the matter. :^)
Jim Peterson
Cubmaster, Pack 379
Chris Jacobi
>Do you really need a hard and fast rule to determine when a scout should be
>restricted.
I agree we don't. What we need is a rule on WHO restricts the scouts and how.
>The bigger question is: why is this such an issue?
Because some people usurp authority, missuse authority, or simply don't
know how to apply it.
>Common sense should always
>take preference over questions as to what's correct or appropriate (as it
>relates to your ability to administer a specific program).
That is true, at least for scoutmasters and experienced scouters. But
it might be a tad difficult for junior staff etc.
Chris