More wrong information?
John Mayson
Hash: SHA1
A few weeks ago I was telling how some of the information I was given at
the SMF training was wrong. I have discovered yet even more
misinformation. However, I did learn something about "Texas specific"
rules while at Camp Constantin.
In SMF training we discussed high adventure camps, specifically Philmont.
We were told that as part of "leave no trace" all bodily waste had to be
carried out. They got as specific as to discuss "female friendly" ways to
capture urine and what female Venturers should do with feminine products.
Our troop sent a crew to Philmont and I made a crack about them hauling
out their waste. I got a table full of funny looks. They said that isn't
true at all and they can't believe I was told that.
So what's the story on high-adventure camps? I'm starting to get a little
irked. Our district likes to gloat we're the best district in the
council, but I'm quickly discovering much of what I've been taught over
the years is simply wrong.
Also a few weeks ago I argued that a married couple only counts as one
adult and a co-ed Venturing crew requires two female and two male adult
leaders. Turns out both those things are Texas-specific. Based on Texas
law, the councils in our state are advised to abide by that. We also have
a liberal common law marriage law. If a couple lives together for 12
months, the state of Texas considers them to be married. So watch out if
you have two cohabitating adults who say they aren't married, Texas may
say otherwise.
YiS,
John
- --
John Mayson <jo...@mayson.us>
Austin, Texas, USA
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J. Hugh Sullivan
wrote:
I'm not aware that any Scout troop asks to see a copy of a couple's
marriage license, but how many troops would permit known cohabiting,
unmarried people to be leaders?
Hugh
John Mayson
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>
> I'm not aware that any Scout troop asks to see a copy of a couple's
> marriage license, but how many troops would permit known cohabiting,
> unmarried people to be leaders?
Why wouldn't they? There's nothing explicitly forbidding this in any BSA
rules. Yes, "morally straight", but how many troops would push that?
Not saying it's right, I'm just wondering how many troops would really use
that to prevent someone from being a leader.
- --
John Mayson <jo...@mayson.us>
Austin, Texas, USA
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MCCET
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> A few weeks ago I was telling how some of the information I was given at
> the SMF training was wrong.
Hmmmm They dont call em tenderfoots for nothin -do they fellers...;))
MCCET
PMTNPO
OWL;
Stephen Henning
>J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>> but how many troops would permit known cohabiting,
>> unmarried people to be leaders?
> Not saying it's right, I'm just wondering how many troops would really use
> that to prevent someone from being a leader.
I was involved with a Troop that had that dilemma. The troop was
looking for a new Scoutmaster. The boys said that one boy's mother's
boy friend would do it. The committee investigated and went with him.
It worked out for a while. However, we eventually found out that when
driving on longer trips he would take along a cooler of beer to "keep
himself awake". That was a deal breaker.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to scou...@earthlink.net
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://scouters.us
J. Hugh Sullivan
wrote:
>John Mayson <jo...@mayson.us> wrote:
>
>>J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>>> but how many troops would permit known cohabiting,
>>> unmarried people to be leaders?
>
>> Not saying it's right, I'm just wondering how many troops would really use
>> that to prevent someone from being a leader.
>
>I was involved with a Troop that had that dilemma. The troop was
>looking for a new Scoutmaster. The boys said that one boy's mother's
>boy friend would do it. The committee investigated and went with him.
I'm surprised.
>It worked out for a while. However, we eventually found out that when
>driving on longer trips he would take along a cooler of beer to "keep
>himself awake".
I'm not surprised.
Hugh
LarryBoy
How LNT is practiced often is up to the property owner. Up in
Philmont (actually Valle Vidal, north of Philmont), we were advised to
use catholes for bodily wastes but I have heard of National Parks
where ALL Human bodily waste must be packed out. At Philmont they
stressed that food (since it is smellable) should never be placed down
a Red Roof Inn (latrine) since bears will dig up the latrine. So
perhaps Feminine products do need to be packed out, but since we did
not have a lady with us I did not read the fine print nor ask.
Scouts will follow what we do more than what we say, so yes I believe
that our troop would prohibit a co-habitating couple from
leading under "Morally straight."
YiS
Sam Taylor ASM T89, Austin Texas
jj
"John Mayson" <jo...@mayson.us> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSX.4.63.0...@john-maysons-ibook-g4.local...
> So what's the story on high-adventure camps? >
If you're going to the Boundary Waters (one of the 3 high adventure bases in
the US), be prepared to pack out your waste. And plan on following every
other principle of LNT to the letter, as well. (Don't go off the worn
trail, no matter how deep the mud is, for example. And don't build fires
outside of dedicated fire rings, or go scavenging for firewood. When they
say LNT, they mean it.)
Haven't heard about SeaBase, and haven't read their materials, but a
pack-out policy sounds possible there, too, given the habitat.
It's not a bad thing to do, whether or not a Scout Base requires it, if you
truly believe in LNT. But just research each trip carefully.
>If a couple lives together for 12
> months, the state of Texas considers them to be married. So watch out if
> you have two cohabitating adults who say they aren't married, Texas may
> say otherwise.
I believe that Texas considers them married under those circumstances ONLY
if they ALSO consider themselves married under those circumstances. That's
what common law marriage requires -- believing and holding yourself out to
be a married couple in public -- in addition to the requisite cohabitation
time period. If they continue to hold themselves out to be unmarried to
everyone, they aren't married. Period.
And yes, I've heard of this kind of issue before. The BSA isn't the
marriage police -- they simply take someone's word about their familial
relationships. If someone says they're married, then that's enough proof.
Same goes for whether or not someone is someone's child -- we don't ask to
see birth or adoption certificates. (And yes, this issue comes up at the Cub
Scout level a lot, especially with blended families, and who may sleep in a
tent together.)
BOTTOM LINE: Read the GSS yourself, and understand the bold print (the hard
policy) very well. The non-bold is advisory, but helpful in interpretation
of the policy. Then you don't have to worry about being "taught" the wrong
thing. (I once corrected a BALOO instructor based on the GSS. He didn't
want to believe what I said, but it was right there in the GSS in bold --
can't argue with that!)
Roger Guilmain
program called Low-Impact Camping. The BSA has chosen to adopt LNT. LNT
would prefer you taking out your bodily waste when possible. If not do
it properly. Problem has been when on heavily used areas, no one wants
to see your waste on the ground. Many try to dig deep holes and waste
will stay there for a long time. You should dig a shallow Cat Hole
because the bacteria that breakdown the waste live within the top few
inches of soil. Also, use bio-degradible TP.
As for a couple, two deep really means more than 2 people, because if
the group has to split up or there is an emergency you should have
back-up adults. As for sleeping arrangements, even you are married, the
BSA still says you are to be in separate tents while with a scout troop,
post or crew.
Roger Guilmain
this year. You don't have to be married to participate on an over night.
Just do sleep together and if you are romantically involved, do that on
your own time and don't flaunt in front of the kids.
John
wrote:
>As for sleeping arrangements, even you are married, the
>BSA still says you are to be in separate tents while with a scout troop,
>post or crew.
>
I'm pretty sure that's not true. Can you point me to some BSA policy
that states this?
Reply-to address is real
John
Roger Guilmain
"Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings" it states the male and
female leaders must sleep in seperate quarters. If married they may
sleep together ONLY IF APPROPRIATE arrangments can be made. Most council
training will tell you that tents are not appropriate and for a weekend
activity it is strongly suggested to use separate tents. It also states
for a co-ed activity there must be at least 1 male and 1 female and at
least one must be registered. Does not say they must be married as
suggested by another reply. Read the Rules and Regs. and use common
sense as to what is appropriate or not. And if you are married and share
the same tent please try to control of your urges, spacially if you are
loud when excited. It's only a weekend and you can hear everything that
is said in a tent.
Mr. A
in there. Can you direct me to the section where it states the rule?
Thanks,
Mr. A
"Roger Guilmain" <ltcr...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:46D60E0A...@cox.net...
Roger Guilmain
Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
1. Two-deep leadership:
Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a
parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at
least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings.
There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult
leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and
female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and
one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.
2. During transportation to and from planned Scout outings,
1. Meet for departure at a designated area.
2. Prearrange a schedule for periodic checkpoint stops as a group.
3. Plan a daily destination point.
A common departure site and a daily destination point are a
must. If you cannot provide two adults for each vehicle, the minimum
required is one adult and two or more youth members—never one on one.
3. Safety rule of four: No fewer than four individuals (always with
the minimum of two adults) go on any backcountry expedition or campout.
If an accident occurs, one person stays with the injured, and two go for
help. Additional adult leadership requirements must reflect an awareness
of such factors as size and skill level of the group, anticipated
environmental conditions, and overall degree of challenge.
4. Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities.
Married couples may share the same quarters only if appropriate
facilities are available.
5. Male and female youth participants will not share the same
sleeping facility.
6. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
youth. A minimum of one of the adults is required to be youth-protection
trained. Adults must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such
as a temporary blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping
area and dressing area separated from the youth area.
7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
other than his or her parent or guardian.
8. If separate shower and latrine facilities are not available,
separate times for male and female use should be scheduled and posted
for showers. The buddy system should be used for latrines by having one
person wait outside the entrance, or provide Occupied and Unoccupied
signs and/or inside door latches.
Adult leaders need to respect the privacy of youth members in
situations where the youth are changing clothes or taking showers, and
intrude only to the extent that health and safety require. Adults also
need to protect their own privacy in similar situations.
Reference: Tours and Expeditions, No. 33737
9. Two-deep adult leadership is required for flying activities. For
basic orientation flights, the adult licensed pilot in control of the
aircraft is sufficient for the flight, while two-deep leadership is
maintained on the ground.
Also if you can't control your hormones for a week with the scouts, stay
home. Like I said, if married you can but you should give the appearance
of decent behavior when near the kids. Tent don't provide much privacy
and common sense says to put females with females and the males with the
males. This is also in the regs. but I don't feel like looking that one
up again. One source should be enough. Again every council I have had
contact with says the strongly recommend separate accommodations. It is
not allowed if not married. We had a leader that was bragging about
getting his girlfriend pregnant. We told him to stop or stay away from
the scouts because these may be the norm in today society but it is not
the values we want give to our scouts.