Was Baden-Powell a pedophile?
Robert & Rebecca Lough
I only recently discovered this newsgroup, and it is not my intention to
stir up a hornets nest, but I wanted to post the question contained in my
subject line.
A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile. She
claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
Nonetheless, she insists that Baden-Powell molested young boys. She
seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter. I have
told her that I have never heard such a thing, and even if there was any
truth to her allegations, that it would not change the fact that I had
many wonderful experiences during my years in scouting and that I never
had a single adult leader act in any way that I would consider
inappropriate.
Does anyone have any facts about this issue? I know that many of you
might have opinions, but do you have any facts. Has this allegation been
made before?
Bob Lough
gregor herrmann
In article <326563...@bellsouth.net>, Robert & Rebecca Lough says...
>A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile.[...]
>She
>seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
>biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter.
i guess she might mean tim jeal's biography. unfortunately i have neither read
it nor do i own it.
>I have
>told her that I have never heard such a thing, and even if there was any
>truth to her allegations, that it would not change the fact that I had
>many wonderful experiences during my years in scouting
right. i guess what matter are the values and ideas of scouting/guiding no
matter what what b.p. did or thought exactely. but nevertheless a more
critical review of b.p. might be helpful.
gregor
----------------------------------------------------------------------
gregor herrmann boy scouts and girl guides of austria
gregor....@uibk.ac.at http://pcwww.uibk.ac.at/subz/c403111/
gre...@jug.big.ac.at http://jug.big.ac.at/~gregor/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger D Carroll
In article <326563...@bellsouth.net>
Robert & Rebecca Lough <lou...@bellsouth.net> writes:
> I only recently discovered this newsgroup, and it is not my intention to
> stir up a hornets nest, but I wanted to post the question contained in my
> subject line.
>
> A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile. She
> claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
> source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
> Nonetheless, she insists that Baden-Powell molested young boys. She
> seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
> biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter. I have
> told her that I have never heard such a thing, and even if there was any
> truth to her allegations, that it would not change the fact that I had
> many wonderful experiences during my years in scouting and that I never
> had a single adult leader act in any way that I would consider
> inappropriate.
>
> Does anyone have any facts about this issue? I know that many of you
> might have opinions, but do you have any facts. Has this allegation been
> made before?
>
> Bob Lough
Why do you care whut sumbody wif NO facts thanks 'bout ol BP? Do you believe
it?
No we wuz not a pedophile. There. That is a fact. At least as much a fact as
she and you have presented in favor of her case.
Provin' a negative is purty hard to do. Fer example:
Prove this stupid thread ain't a troll.
Scoutin' in the Ozarks fer a good thread to talk 'bout,
Roger
Monte Kalisch
> Robert & Rebecca Lough <lou...@bellsouth.net> writes:
> > A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile.
She
> > claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
> > source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
> > Nonetheless, she insists that Baden-Powell molested young boys. She
> > seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
> > biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter. I have
> > told her that I have never heard such a thing, and even if there was
any
> > truth to her allegations, that it would not change the fact that I had
> > many wonderful experiences during my years in scouting and that I never
> > had a single adult leader act in any way that I would consider
> > inappropriate.
> >
> > Does anyone have any facts about this issue? I know that many of you
> > might have opinions, but do you have any facts. Has this allegation
been
> > made before?
No, Robert, I don't have any facts. I wish you luck in your journey to
obtain them. Actually, I think I have heard this allegation before and I
believe there was some validity to the case (this is, of course, a
combination of heresy and a bad memory), but that's all I know.
Roger D Carroll <rdc...@inmax.com> wrote in article
<54539h$nqp$1...@news1.inlink.com>...
> Why do you care whut sumbody wif NO facts thanks 'bout ol BP? Do you
believe
> it?
>
> No we wuz not a pedophile. There. That is a fact. At least as much a fact
as
> she and you have presented in favor of her case.
Jason/Colleen <cook...@boone.net> wrote in article
<01bbbd97$ce3c72c0$95089ace@cooksrus>...
> If Baden Powell was a pedophile, what difference does it make?
> First, he's dead.
> Second, the lessons and legacy he left behind are good enough.
> Third, who is to say that the whole thing (Scouting) is ruined if he was
a
> pedo?
> Forth, he's dead.
> Moral of the story=take and give what you can, and get on with your life
> here and now!
You know, Roger, Jason, and Colleen, I'm really surprised by your
responses. Roger says, "That is a fact," but is unable to provide any
*evidence*. Sorry, Roger, but your word is not factual evidence unless you
were a witness to every event in BP's life.
Jason and Colleen bring up a good point, but seem a little sarcastic in
their "Moral of the story." Their point being that the lessons BP left
behind are good enough; however, keep in mind that these are still value
judgments.
Since Robert specifically asked for factual evidence, I don't think your
responses were appropriate. In fact, their tone suggests that Robert is a
nuisance for even *asking* the question. I applaud Robert in his quest to
find information. Personally, the result doesn't really matter to me
either, but Robert would like to be able to "prove" his case based on
factual evidence.
Live the Scout Oath and Law.
Yours in Scouting,
Monte Kalisch
M o n t e K a l i s c h
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ MonTek Computer Solutions ~
~ mon...@montekcs.com ~
~ http://www.montekcs.com/www ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ No man is justified in doing evil on the ground of expediency. ~
- Theodore Roosevelt
Roger D Carroll
In article <01bbbe0b$ea19d5e0$16c05281@gateway>
"Monte Kalisch" <mon...@montekcs.com> writes:
> Roger D Carroll <rdc...@inmax.com> wrote in article
> <54539h$nqp$1...@news1.inlink.com>...
> > Why do you care whut sumbody wif NO facts thanks 'bout ol BP? Do you
> believe
> > it?
> >
> > No we wuz not a pedophile. There. That is a fact. At least as much a fact
> as
> > she and you have presented in favor of her case.
>
> Jason/Colleen <cook...@boone.net> wrote in article
> <01bbbd97$ce3c72c0$95089ace@cooksrus>...
> > If Baden Powell was a pedophile, what difference does it make?
> > First, he's dead.
> > Second, the lessons and legacy he left behind are good enough.
> > Third, who is to say that the whole thing (Scouting) is ruined if he was
> a
> > pedo?
> > Forth, he's dead.
> > Moral of the story=take and give what you can, and get on with your life
> > here and now!
>
> You know, Roger, Jason, and Colleen, I'm really surprised by your
> responses. Roger says, "That is a fact," but is unable to provide any
> *evidence*. Sorry, Roger, but your word is not factual evidence unless you
> were a witness to every event in BP's life.
Golllllllly! You sure are easily surprized Monte! 'Course I admit to a might
bit o' surprize meself at yer comment. I ain't gotta provide evidence at a
troll party. Monte, ol' buddy, cool yer jets a bit. Sum folks ain't really
sincere on this newsgroup. I knowed its hard to believe, but we once't had a
feller on this newsgroup whut claimed to be a Eagle scout; had a sex change
operation from a man to a woman. An' then he said he wuz a activist lesbian.
Besides, the rules o' evidence here seem ta be a little loose.
> Jason and Colleen bring up a good point, but seem a little sarcastic in
> their "Moral of the story." Their point being that the lessons BP left
> behind are good enough; however, keep in mind that these are still value
> judgments.
>
> Since Robert specifically asked for factual evidence, I don't think your
> responses were appropriate. In fact, their tone suggests that Robert is a
> nuisance for even *asking* the question. I applaud Robert in his quest to
> find information. Personally, the result doesn't really matter to me
> either, but Robert would like to be able to "prove" his case based on
> factual evidence.
Hoorah fer Robert! Dig up ol' BP an aks hisself! Thet would be unrefeyutable
evidence.
Monte ol' buddy, my daddy tol' me oncet thet sarcasm is wasted on children an'
fools.
Scoutin' in the Ozarks fer "evidnece"
Roger
Lone Wolf
Robert & Rebecca Lough <lou...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile. She
>claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
>source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
>Nonetheless, she insists that Baden-Powell molested young boys. She
>seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
>biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter. I have
>told her that I have never heard such a thing, and even if there was any
>truth to her allegations, that it would not change the fact that I had
>many wonderful experiences during my years in scouting and that I never
>had a single adult leader act in any way that I would consider
>inappropriate.
Well My great grandfather had BP boarding with him (and I have a
letter as proof that he knew BP). My family has never heard such
rumors, and if there was any basis, I think I would have heard
something. I think someone's just out to make a buck by tarnishing
the name of a great person.
--Lone Wolf
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, lou...@bellsouth.net (Robert & Rebecca Lough) says:
>I only recently discovered this newsgroup, and it is not my intention to
>stir up a hornets nest, but I wanted to post the question contained in my
>subject line.
>
>A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile. She
>claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
>source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
>Nonetheless, she insists that Baden-Powell molested young boys. She
>seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
>biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter. I have
>told her that I have never heard such a thing, and even if there was any
>truth to her allegations, that it would not change the fact that I had
>many wonderful experiences during my years in scouting and that I never
>had a single adult leader act in any way that I would consider
>inappropriate.
>
>Does anyone have any facts about this issue? I know that many of you
>might have opinions, but do you have any facts. Has this allegation been
>made before?
>
>Bob Lough
>
Hi,
I am not aware of anyone seriously claiming that B-P was a pedophile.
There is a critical book out on B-P that hypothosizes that he *might*
have had *repressed* homosexual tendencies. But cautions the reader
that life was very different in English all male boarding schools,
at the turn of the century, than it is today. This is Tim Jewels
biography on B-P.
What we do know, as fact, is that whenever he found out about
pedophiles within the scouting ranks, he booted them out and
called them by names most fowl.
Hope this helps,
bill
--
Bill Nelson, Assistant District Commissioner, BSA
Grand Canyon Council, Phoenix, AZ
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, lou...@bellsouth.net (Robert & Rebecca Lough) says:
>I only recently discovered this newsgroup, and it is not my intention to
>stir up a hornets nest, but I wanted to post the question contained in my
>subject line.
>
>A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile. She
>claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
>source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
>Nonetheless, she insists that Baden-Powell molested young boys. She
>seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
>biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter. I have
>told her that I have never heard such a thing, and even if there was any
>truth to her allegations, that it would not change the fact that I had
>many wonderful experiences during my years in scouting and that I never
>had a single adult leader act in any way that I would consider
>inappropriate.
>
>Does anyone have any facts about this issue? I know that many of you
>might have opinions, but do you have any facts. Has this allegation been
>made before?
>
Hi,
I am not aware of anyone seriously claiming that B-P was a pedophile.
There is a critical book out on B-P that hypothosizes that he *might*
have had *repressed* homosexual tendencies. But cautions the reader
that life was very different in English all male boarding schools,
at the turn of the century, than it is today. This is Tim Jeal's
biography on B-P (The boy-man : the life of Lord Baden-Powel )
What we do know, as fact, is that whenever he found out about
pedophiles within the scouting ranks, he booted them out and
called them by names most fowl. There are references in Jeal's
book of these events, if you would like them.
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, lou...@bellsouth.net (Robert & Rebecca Lough) says:
>I only recently discovered this newsgroup, and it is not my intention to
>stir up a hornets nest, but I wanted to post the question contained in my
>subject line.
>
>A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile. She
>claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
>source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
Hi,
I am not aware of anyone seriously claiming that B-P was a pedophile.
There is a critical book out on B-P that hypothosizes that he *might*
have had *repressed* homosexual tendencies. But cautions the reader
that life was very different in English all male boarding schools,
at the turn of the century, where B-P spent his formative years,
than it is today. This is Tim Jeal's
biography on B-P (The boy-man : the life of Lord Baden-Powel )
What we do know, as fact, is that whenever he found out about
pedophiles within the scouting ranks, he booted them out.
There are references in Jeal's
book of these events, if you would like them.
Hope this helps,
-bill
Doug Shearer
>
>In a previous article, lou...@bellsouth.net (Robert & Rebecca Lough) says:
>
>>I only recently discovered this newsgroup, and it is not my intention to
>>stir up a hornets nest, but I wanted to post the question contained in my
>>subject line.
>>
>>A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile. She
>>claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
>>source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
>
Hi
It is all too easy to make up stories and innuendos after a man has died
- I have read no, repeat no, accusation made in his lifetime about this.
In order to sell books certain individuals have expressed views that BP
was a repressed individual with paedophile tendences - a view which
however untrue or true has caught the muckraking imagination of the
press.
Look to his achievements - these are lasting and still almost 100 years
later bright & fresh in the minds of youth.
So tell your friend - put up & shut up unless she has proof!!!
BTW is she also claiming Jesus was a homosexual/ promiscuous
heterosexual, etc etc - because all of these have appeared in books!!!!!
Yours aye in Scouting
Doug
GSL 10th Fife Cupar
Scotland UK
Neil Savage
In article <54dphb$s...@thor.atcon.com>, smi...@atcon.com (Lone Wolf) writes...
>>seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
>>biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter.
Some time ago there was a post that claimed BP encouraged the boys
in his charge to 'skinny dip' because he liked to look at them naked.
This might be construed as sexual. I no longer recall what was cited
in that post as the bibliography source of the tale.
- neil
C. J. Morgan
: In article <326563...@bellsouth.net>
: Robert & Rebecca Lough <lou...@bellsouth.net> writes:
: > I only recently discovered this newsgroup, and it is not my intention to
: > stir up a hornets nest, but I wanted to post the question contained in my
: > subject line.
: >
: > A friend of mine at work insists that Baden-Powell was a pedophile. She
: > claims that it is a fact, although which is established, but she has no
: > source --- except, in so far as I can determine, her imagination.
: > Nonetheless, she insists that Baden-Powell molested young boys. She
: > seems to believe that there have been articles written or a
: > biography written about Baden-Powell which discuss this matter. I have
: > told her that I have never heard such a thing, and even if there was any
: > truth to her allegations, that it would not change the fact that I had
: > many wonderful experiences during my years in scouting and that I never
: > had a single adult leader act in any way that I would consider
: > inappropriate.
: >
: > Does anyone have any facts about this issue? I know that many of you
: > might have opinions, but do you have any facts. Has this allegation been
: > made before?
: >
: > Bob Lough
Dear Bob,
I don't have any facts one way or other, but of the years of studying BP
writings, I strongly suspect that his dealings with boys were always
noble. Of course, BP does show -- by way of his writings -- that his was
an extremely intelligent, very observant individual who's manner of both
thinking and communicating made him what some might call an "original."
And so it wouldn't surprise me if he has his own hidden vices of one form
or another. But I think going after small boys would not be one of them,
and further believe that the suggestion of such is, at the very least, a
great disrespect.
Yours In Scouting
C.J.
--
C.J. Morgan
ch...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
