BSA may owe it's existence/monopoly to falsehoods by Scout Founder?
Bill Nelson
Seton. They were a paramilitary organization.
No one seriously doubts that B-P founded Scouting in England and that he
took some ideas from Seton. Also, no one doubts that Seton was one of
the founders of the BSA.
Yours in Scouting,
Bill
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bill Nelson
DR2001 <dr2...@my-deja.com> wrote:
...
=====
>
> Now the inaccuracies:
>
> Lord Edward Cecil had never trained the existing Mafeking Cadet Corps
> on "scout lines". In 1927, BP stated in a private letter dictated to
> his secretary Mrs. Wade and signed by her on his behalf: "The boy
> messengers were not Boy Scouts... but more in the nature of cadets...
Yet B-P did not say they were Scouts. He said their training was along
"scout lines" which was true, even if they were not Scouts but cadets.
Jeal stated a lot of facts in his book, but beware of the opinions he
inserts between the facts, he presents them as facts as well.
YiS,
Bill
--
And can the liberties of a nation be thought
secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a
conviction in the minds of men that these
liberties are the gift of God? - Thomas Jefferson
Bill Nelson
DR2001 <dr2...@my-deja.com> wrote:
Mike,
>
> The BSA expected to win their case if they could establish that Baden-
> Powell was the Movement's undoubted founder and had conferred upon
them
> the exclusive right to use the name, uniform, badges and other
> paraphernalia of his movement in America.
I don't know how important B-P's letter was for the BSA case. Jeal put
great emphasis on the letter, but he was writing a biography on B-P not
a history of the case.
...
> Kind of ironic that in the BSA vs. US Scouts the BSA was trying to do
> the exact opposite... Maximize B-P's importance in the founding of the
> BSA.
I think at the time the BSA was trying to show that they were an
organization that came from another organization in England that B-P
founded called the Boy Scouts. Which is factual. Seton founded the
Woodcraft Indians. The BSA was trying to get a trademark on the title
Boy Scouts.
>
> ======================
>
> Some additional background material:
>
> Ernest Thompson Seton:
>
> Seton, a famous writer and artist, had founded a loosely-structure
> boys' program called the Woodcraft Indians around 1902. Seton's
> introduction to the Original Edition of the BSA's Boy Scout Handbook
> makes it clear that he considered himself to be the real founder of
the
> World Scouting movement:
>
> "In 1904, I went to England to carry on the work [of fostering
> a 'Woodcraft and Scouting movement'] there, and, knowing General R. S.
> S. Baden-Powell as the chief advocate of scouting in the British Army,
> invited him to cooperate with me, in making the movement popular.
> Accordingly, in 1908 he organized his Boy Scout movement,
incorporating
> the principles of the [Woodcraft] Indians with other ethical features
> bearing on savings banks, fire drills, etc., as well as by giving it a
> partly military organization, and a carefully compiled and fascinating
> book."
Read the quote again. Seton is saying that B-P incorporated the
principles of the Woodcraft Indians into Scouting, not that he founded
Scouting. He said, in fact (of B-P), "Accordingly, in 1908 he organized
his Boy Scout movement"
Also, please reference who you are citing in the rest of the citation,
it looks like Jeal, but I can't be sure. In a previous post I have
warned about Jeal, he states opinions as fact, at times, with little
evidence.
>
> When William Boyce incorporated the Boy Scouts of America in February,
> 1910, Seton merged his Woodcraft Indians with the new organization and
> became the BSA's first Chief Scout (from 1910 to 1916).
This is partially true. A part of the Woodcraft Indians never merged
with the BSA. In fact, the Woodcraft Indians still exist today.
>
> =====
>
> Baden-Powell's treatment of Ernest Thompson Seton, the founder of a
> youth movement similar to the Boy Scouts, also has been criticized. A
> naturalist from Canada, Seton founded ``American Woodcraft for Boys''
> in the 1890s. He willingly shared his ideas with Baden-Powell,
> including games he had invented for boys to play in the woods. Did
> Baden-Powell steal his ideas? Seton thought so.
>
> Seton to BP: ``When first your `Scouting for Boys' appeared, in 1908,
I
> was astounded to find all my ideas taken, all my games
> appropriated . . . '' he wrote in a 1910 letter to the Chief Scout.
The general quickly apologized, in writing, for his oversights and
assured Seton that the situation would be remedied.
>
> =====
>
> Power Struggle:
>
> Both West and Seton were strong-willed and soon found they had
> conflicting ideas on how Scouting should develop. Scouting Founder
> Seton thought of West as a simple administrator, and challenged West's
> authority to control the young program's development. West had the
> organization and power base, and forced Seton out in 1916 (also
> removing all of Seton's writing from the Boy Scout Handbook--though I
> have not yet discovered whether this was West's choice or if Seton
> demanded they be removed). But Seton's contribution had been made, and
> American Scouting today owes much to both men.
>
> =====
>
> Early Actions:
>
> The new BSA quickly established a national office, developed a
> temporary handbook, sought out Baden-Powell's endorsement (which they
> got), and began to work to get a Congressional Charter from the US
> Congress (which they got in 1916).
Congressional charters are popular among national non-profit service
groups. They define the name and prevent other groups from modifying
the name slightly, starting another organization, and playing upon the
good name of the national organization. Think of them as trademarks.
> They also began an active campaign
> to absorb all other Scout-type youth organizations into the BSA.
Which they did with limited success. Two examples are the Woodcraft
Indians and the Campfire Boys and Girls, both still exist, both are
Scout-type organzations within the USA that predate the BSA.
> Indeed, only one such organization held out past 1912--publisher
> William Randolph Hearst's militaristic "US Boy Scout" organization.
This is not true, see above.
> Resorting to the federal courts, and aided by their Congressional
> Charter and testimony from Baden-Powell, the BSA obtained a favorable
> ruling against the "US Boy Scout" in 1919.
>
Again, you are quoting someone, please reference where you are getting
the quote. The author, undoubtedly, would agree with me.
YiS,
Bill
--
Rick Seymour
wrote:
>Read the quote again. Seton is saying that B-P incorporated the
>principles of the Woodcraft Indians into Scouting, not that he founded
>Scouting. He said, in fact (of B-P), "Accordingly, in 1908 he organized
>his Boy Scout movement"
>
>Also, please reference who you are citing in the rest of the citation,
>it looks like Jeal, but I can't be sure. In a previous post I have
>warned about Jeal, he states opinions as fact, at times, with little
>evidence.
Perhaps the best Scouting History Website in the world is the Reverend
Michael Foster's "Scout History Club."
http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/church/bbs/shc.htm
Foster is an exacting historian with access to the original
publications. Jeal interviewed Foster extensively for his book, and
it was from Foster that Jeal got much of his information. On the
Website you will find a lot of interesting insights into Jeal's
writings from Foster's perspective.
Foster also has a few online articles that show exactly what B-P
"borrowed" from Seton, but even more interesting is what Seton was NOT
aware of at the time of B-P's sworn testimony.
As you may know, the term "Scout" appears in Seton's Birch Bark Roll
as a rank or "degree," as a game called "Scouting," and as the
extensive "Scout Report" to the Council of what a Woodcrafter has done
since the last meeting.
But Foster offers an extensive list of publications in which the
so-called "trademark" BOY SCOUT was used in two different fiction
series long before B-P appropriated it:
"Aldine Publishing .
Contrary to popular opinion the name 'Boy Scout' was first used by
Aldine Publishing in 1899 in 'The New Buffalo Bill Library' in a
Buffalo Bill story to describe "Buffalo Bill's most trusted
Scouts....Harry White a youngster of seventeen" Issue 6 November 1909
.
"The True Blue War Library.
Following in the wake of the Boer War 'The True Blue War Library'
re-cast the name 'Boy Scout' to describe the adventures in the
Transvaal of 'Harry St George' a heroic figure The hero of our story
was serialized for the best part of six years making him a cult figure
of Boys literature [extensive list of publications follows]."
>> When William Boyce incorporated the Boy Scouts of America in February,
>> 1910, Seton merged his Woodcraft Indians with the new organization and
>> became the BSA's first Chief Scout (from 1910 to 1916).
>
>This is partially true. A part of the Woodcraft Indians never merged
>with the BSA. In fact, the Woodcraft Indians still exist today.
Some of you may find interesting the following passage from Betty
Keller's biography of Seton, "Black Wolf" This is a different account
of the BSA's incorporation which I don't remember reading anywhere
else:
"Seton reacted first by making on more attempt to divide up the
territory between himself and Baden-Powell, and to gain recognition
from B-P for the materials he had stolen from The Birch-Bark Roll. On
10 January he wrote an "open letter" to Baden-Powell which gave "A
History of the Boy Scout Movement," that is, a history of the
Woodcraft Indian movement and an outline of the specific things which
Baden-Powell had borrowed from him without leave. [snip]
"When this appeal only brought another of Baden-Powell's courteous but
inadequate replies, Seton realized that his alternatives had been
reduced to one: to prevent Baden-Powell's inroads into the United
States, Seton would have to amalgamate with other youth groups and use
a more popular format. On 15 June 1910 representatives from
thirty-seven youth agencies met at the YMCA in New York City, and
within six days they had drawn up a constitution, and named an
executive committee and an organization committee. After long
deliberation, it was decided that the new movement should be called
the Boy Scouts of America. Some warning bell seems to have sounded in
Seton's head at this time, however, because instead of automatically
making all his Indians into Boy Scouts, he continued to maintain his
Woodcraft League as a separate organization, even though he was able
to give them only scant attention during the next few years.
"Seton was appointed chairman of the executive committee of the BSA,
and began work by organizing a trial camp-out similar to
Baden-Powell's experiment at Brownsea Island. [snip]
"Up to this time, Seton's troubles had all come from Baden-Powell and
the British Boy Scouts, but when he arrived back in New York City on 5
September, his difficulties with the Boy Scouts of America began.
Most of the BSA executives had decided that for their organization
they preferred the British Boy Scout model to that of the Woodcraft
Indians, ostensibly because the Woodcraft League system was too
decentralized and inefficient to allow the development of a
nation-wide organization. In fact, they found the Woodcraft system
less attractive because it allowed little adult intervention and set
up the Indian as the standard of excellence. To switch to the British
model, the BSA had to be reincorporated with a new constitution, and
this time, the executive committee was composed of politicians,
bankers, social workers, teachers, and military men, instead of youth
group organizers as in the first committee. Seton, who found himself
left off the committee entirely, was given the title of Chief Scout,
but it did not take him long to discover that he was now only a
figurehead. Beard, Bomus, and Verbeck had also been sidetracked as
"National Scout Commissioners" without powers of any kind."
Hope this helps!
Yours in Scouting,
Rick Seymour
Buffalo, USA; a good 'ol Beaver, and the Kudu Net too!
Ri...@Kudu.Net
Bill Nelson
Thanks! I will look there. I was unaware of the site before.
>
> As you may know, the term "Scout" appears in Seton's Birch Bark Roll
> as a rank or "degree," as a game called "Scouting," and as the
> extensive "Scout Report" to the Council of what a Woodcrafter has done
> since the last meeting.
Yes, the term Scout is used by Seton. He never really bought into the
BSA or B-P organization of Scouting. It is evident if you read the
Birchbark Rolls.
>
> But Foster offers an extensive list of publications in which the
> so-called "trademark" BOY SCOUT was used in two different fiction
> series long before B-P appropriated it:
Interesting...the term Scout and Boy Scout was used extensively in the
USA prior to the BSA getting a congressional charter for it. Confusion
as to what it ment was one of the reasons for the charter.
<snip>
> >> When William Boyce incorporated the Boy Scouts of America in
February,
> >> 1910, Seton merged his Woodcraft Indians with the new organization
and
> >> became the BSA's first Chief Scout (from 1910 to 1916).
> >
> >This is partially true. A part of the Woodcraft Indians never merged
> >with the BSA. In fact, the Woodcraft Indians still exist today.
>
> Some of you may find interesting the following passage from Betty
> Keller's biography of Seton, "Black Wolf"
<snip...the quote basically reinforced what I said...but I really
appreciated it.>
At the time of the founding of the BSA there were a lot of organizations
vying for the title of Scout organization see my TAN posting that I
mistakingly posted on rec.scouting.usa and then reposted here.
YiS,
bill
Bill Nelson
DR2001 <dr2...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Bill Nelson said:
>
> I don't know how important B-P's letter was for the BSA case. Jeal
put
> great emphasis on the letter, but he was writing a biography on B-P
not
> a history of the case.
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Let's address the issue of the sworn affidavit by Baden-Powell.
>
> (Hopefully I *may* be getting it's exact wording soon...)
>
> At this time neither of us knows the importance of BP's sworn
affidavit
> in the BSA vs US Scouts case, that's why I included *may* in the title
> of the subject line.
>
> It wasn't *just* a letter, it was a sworn affidavit/deposition.
>
> - A sworn affidavit by Baden-Powell that was not truthful on several
> points.
>
> ...
>
> Fact:
>
> On 24 May 1918, Baden-Powell swore an affidavit ("Deposition as to the
> Origins of Scout Movement") at the American Consulate General in
> Cavendish Square, London, to be used by the Boy Scouts of America in
> their case against the United States Boy Scouts in the Supreme Court
of
> New York County.
Just a note, in reference to your subject. This case occured after
the BSA received the congressional charter in 1916. By the time this
case came to court the USBS were running into a lot of problems with
internal corruption. They had lost their largest sponsor (Hearst) and
were on the road to ending (which they did soon after the suite). They
were staying alive, barely by confusing the public with good name of the
Boy Scouts of America. It is very doubtful that the BSA would not be in
existance today if they lost this suite.
>
> Jeal also said:
>
> The Former body expected to win their case if they could establish
that
> Baden-Powell was the Movement's undoubted founder and had conferred
> upon them the exclusive right to use the name, uniform, badges and
> other paraphernalia of his movement in America.
Yes, that is what Jeal said...I don't know if the case hinged on this or
not. And I certainly don't think that the existance of the BSA hinged
on this case.
>
> =================================================
>
> Bill also said:
>
> I think at the time the BSA was trying to show that they were an
> organization that came from another organization in England that B-P
> founded called the Boy Scouts. Which is factual. Seton founded the
> Woodcraft Indians. The BSA was trying to get a trademark on the title
> Boy Scouts.
>
> ===================
>
> I have no problem with your statements above with the caveat that the
> BSA (and evidently BP's Scouting in England) had elements that came
> from a few different organizations including Seton's Woodcraft Indians
> including games, lore and badges.
Sure.
>
> Off course people will disagree to what *extent* different "founders"
> had input into the formation of the BSA.
Sure.
>
> What's of concern is BP's inaccuracies in a sworn affidavit that
> evidently had some importance (of whatever degree) on the case.
>
> Inaccuracies that minimized the contributions of others.
B-P did acknowledge Seton's contributions. And he did so in print, in
fact, in the next issue of Scouting for Boys that came out after the one
Seton objected to.
YiS,
Bill
Rick Seymour
>Let's address the issue of the sworn affidavit by Baden-Powell.
>
>(Hopefully I *may* be getting it's exact wording soon...)
I don't have the entire affidavit either, but I have posted the BSA's
excerpts from the sworn testimony published in the 2nd Editon of the
Handbook for Scoutmasters.
The entire text concerning the" United States Boys Scout" can be found
at:
http://www.kudu.net/adult_association/aims_and_methods/2nd/b-p_testimony.htm
(Please note that the above URL is one line but may be broken into two
parts by your news client. Blank "spaces" are underscore)