Running Hills
groun...@webtv.net
I have been seriously running for about 8 weeks now. I currently run 14
miles per week (3 miles Sunday, 4 Miles Mon., 5 Mi. Wed., and 2 Miles
Thursday) at about a 7:45 per mile pace. I know that isn't very fast but
I like running anyways!
I live in a mountainous region and my running takes me up and down
several steep hills. I'm worried about overstressing my joints or
something, especially going downhill. Are there any precations I should
take to prevent injury? A certain way to run or something?
Thanks!
CityPal
that pretty fast in a race you'll probably drop 20-30 sec./mi keep up the good
work....sure and steady wins the race
Doug
Doug Freese
groun...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> To any experienced runners,
>
> I have been seriously running for about 8 weeks now. I currently run 14
> miles per week (3 miles Sunday, 4 Miles Mon., 5 Mi. Wed., and 2 Miles
> Thursday) at about a 7:45 per mile pace. I know that isn't very fast but
> I like running anyways!
For some folks 7:45 is a race pace. The real question is an easy
pace for you or are you racing every mile? The thumb rule, aka lore,
is conversation pace - if someone was running next to you you should be
able to converse comfortably. This is exclusive of speed or hills but
as a new runner those should be avoided until you see how your body
adjusts, i.e. aches pains and or injuries.
>
> I live in a mountainous region and my running takes me up and down
> several steep hills. I'm worried about overstressing my joints or
> something, especially going downhill. Are there any precations I should
> take to prevent injury? A certain way to run or something?
This opens up many areas of running specifically form. I would take a
look at http://www.cermav.cnrs.fr/home_pages/lakin/run_form.html.
Your instincts are correct in that the down hills can raise the
most havoc especially with knees. To oversimplify, never let your
knee hit in the locked/straight position - it causes breaking and
serious jarring. Your foot should land with the knee slightly bent
to avoid the breaking.
I would also peruse http://www.mindfulness.com/mind/mr.html for some
great reading and pointers.
--
Caveat Lector!
Doug Freese dfr...@ibm.net
CANDACE
AND DONT STOMP YOUR FEET CAUSE YOU CAN GET SHIN SPLINTS
LUV ALWAYZ,
CANDACE
groun...@webtv.net
to ear that 7:45 min miles aren't bad. For some reason I had always
thought the goal was to run 6:30 or something miles as a "standard
pace". I don't know where I heard that. 7:45 miles for me is a very
comfortable pace. I could probably carry on a conversation if I wanted
to. Never tried though...
Like I said before, running hills is unavoidable up here. I would have
to find a running track if I wanted to run flat surfaces, and if I had
to go to a park or something every time I ran I would probably stop
running very soon. I have a hard time fitting running in as it is.
Thanks again!
Ozzie Gontang
The diagonal of a rectangle is longer than it's length. The hill is you at
the top of a downward diagonal. So when you take your natural step going
downhill, it lands on the bottom of the diagonal.
So your normal stride has been made an overstide by the hill. This problem
is compounded by the fact that when going down hill people are afraid of
falling. But as I've said around rec.running for years: "Running is
falling and catching yourself gracefully each step. Go for the grace." So
when afraid of falling they lean backwards from the lower back which then
exaggerates even more the overstride braking effect Hoffman is addressing.
Using the Alexander Technique of lifting the head a quarter of an inch to
allow the body to follow, even going downhill one is lifting the body
upward so that there is minimal vertical displacement downward in going
down hill. The idea is to place the foot down fast enough so that the body
weight doesn't pound into the hill.
To go down hill, if you keep your body erect, the hill will run you. All
you have to do is place your foot down quickly enough to make the downward
diagonal of the hill equal to your normal stride length.
Also for years I've taught people how to fall up hill. If you keep your
body erect going up hill, you have to make the upward diagonal the same as
your normal stride. Simply put, "The steeper the uphill, the shorter the
step." Keep your eyes on the horizon and the head erect so that like
balancing a broom in the palm of your hand you let gravity do the
work...either up or down the hills you encounter.
In running uphill, keep the same cadence but the steeper the hill the
shorter the stride taking into consideration the same image of the
diagonal. That way as you go up a hill the shorter step gives you the same
angle as running on level ground - by shortening the diagonal - and you
literally learn to fall up a hill using gravity. Actually I use the image
of falling through the hill.
Body erect, eyes straight ahead.
Let us know how you progress.
--
In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com
D Barry
--
Douglas
Douglas Barry
Chairman
Irish Mountain Running Association
http://www.iol.ie/~imra
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
beginning runner, you don't want to be doing many uphills and especially
not downhills. Both uphills and downhills requre strength and stability
from your legs which at a beginning stage you haven't developed yet. Try
not to run an major hills at this point.
Several months down the line, you can start doing hill training. I'm sure
you can get some books to read up on this, but when going uphill, you
mostly use your forefoot and take smaller steps. Also, remember to lean
your body forwards (well, this comes naturally for most people.)
When you have a bit more leg strength and experience, this is what to do
when going downhills: take long strides and lean forwards. Yes,
leand forwards so that your body weight propels you down. Your torso
should be almost perpendicular to the hill slope when going down. You see
why you need to develop some leg strength when doing hills? Especially
going downhills, a lot of weight is put on the thighs, quads and shins.
Doing hills also develops leg strength.
Conal
: WHENGOING UP HILL GO ON YOUR TOES AND WHEN GOING DOWN HILL BE CAREFUL
Denny Anderson
..........snip...................
>When you have a bit more leg strength and experience, this is what to do
>when going downhills: take long strides and lean forwards. Yes,
Begging to differ. IMHO, the technique necessary to run downhill AND
minimize impact on knee joints is to increase steps/minute and
deliberately decrease the greatest angle made between your legs during
each step. The fact that the downhill increases speed with no
additional effort will cause the stride to be longer (or at least, not
shorter) - but, only because the airborne, or float portion of each
step will be longer( due to downhill component of gravitational
force), even though taking steps at a greater rate and decreasing max
angle between the legs during each step.
>leand forwards so that your body weight propels you down. Your torso
>should be almost perpendicular to the hill slope when going down. You see
That (perp. to hill) may not work well unless the slope of the hill is
very, very slight. In the majority of cases, remain upright
(perpendicular to gravitational forces, not perpendicular to the
hill). The only sustainable lean will be that which is required to
overcome wind resistance. At a constant speed, that would be a steady
state condition. If there were a tail wind equal to your downhill
steady speed, no lean at all could be maintained!
Leaning forward in excess of the wind resistance component would
require continued acceleration until the wind resistance were enough
to return everything to equilibrium. That, in most cases, would
require greater leg speed than is possible. If one persisted in such a
lean, it is likely that ointment and bandages would be useful shortly
after finishing the downhill.
Try videotaping on a moderate hill. Use a telephone pole for vertical
reference. As the runner runs at a constant speed downhill, videotape
the runner as he/she passes the reference pole. Bet you'll see the
runner's torso lined up with the telephone pole (or very nearly so).
>why you need to develop some leg strength when doing hills? Especially
>going downhills, a lot of weight is put on the thighs, quads and shins.
>Doing hills also develops leg strength.
>
>Conal
>
>: WHENGOING UP HILL GO ON YOUR TOES AND WHEN GOING DOWN HILL BE CAREFUL
>: AND DONT STOMP YOUR FEET CAUSE YOU CAN GET SHIN SPLINTS
Denny Anderson
To ERR is human... to ZIN, divine!
<denizin...@execpc.com> Remove _mapSoN_ to reply
FreakOfNature
Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> Your torso
> should be almost perpendicular to the hill slope when going down.
Pretty bizarre advice.
Only in movies can one walk up/down vertical surfaces.
The laws of Physics apply here.
In order to maintain perpendicular position on a slope one has to move
with ever increasing speed. You'll end up with your face in the dirt
because the legs won't be able to keep up. The reason is that a
component of the gravitational acceleration is acting on the body now.
The angle should be such that it assists the downward motion just enough
that the legs can handle it.
Downhill running is good for those folks that lack natural leg speed.
It's one of training approaches to increase leg turnover rate.
Pete
Doug Freese
Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
>
> No, I'm pretty sure of what I mean. Note that I say your torso should be
> almost perpendicular to the hill slope when GOING DOWN. That way, your
> body weight is falling forwards and that's how you move fast downwards.
> Your torso SHOULD NOT be perpendicular to the hill slope when going UP.
Not the way I was taught or read. Ex: pg. 155 of Galloway under
running form for hills: "You'll get the greatest push from each step
if you keep your main elements - head, chest, hips and feet -
perpendicular to an imaginary HORIZONTAL. They are lined up best
to defy gravity. " Further down on the page, specifically under
downhill running, he says to lean slightly on the down hills.
The lean-in on the downhill is touchy and needs to be honed. If
you lean too far forward you will out of control and ones form
in the toilet if not a face plant. If you lean at all on the uphill,
pack a lunch, your efficiency goes in the basket.
See also, although I'm sorry it is the same person, but online:
http://www.runnersworld.com/training/jghills.html
Try Newton and Henderson:
http://www.marathonandbeyond.com/news/newton.htm
>
> Think about it. At least that's the way I've been "taught" (by books and
> my own experience) to run downhills.
Please feel free to quote a book or web page to validate your
thesis.
>
> Or perhaps you have the wrong image. Let me draw in ASCII what I mean.
The picture is helpful but frankly not one I have ever seen and I
have a substantial library on running. OTOH I'm always looking
for new approaches....
>
> 0
> \
> \ ---
> \ ---
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---
> --------------------BASE OF THE HILL
>
> Hopefully you can se the figure above. The hill is the triangular looking
> thing. The person is the thing that looks like a stick figure. By
> perpendicular to the hill slope, this is what I mean: The angle of your
> body measured to the slope of the hill is 90 degrees. I am not talking
> about 90 degrees measured from the BASE of the hill (which is marked on
> the drawing above. Or put in other words, if you use a protractor, place
> it on the slope of the hill (not the base) and then measure 90 degrees
> from that angle. Gosh, I hope this is clear enough!
Clearly wrong by my knowledge base but willing to learn. Cite!!!
Alan Burlison
> The advice below is correct, but I'll add to it. First though, as a
> beginning runner, you don't want to be doing many uphills and especially
> not downhills. Both uphills and downhills requre strength and stability
> from your legs which at a beginning stage you haven't developed yet. Try
> not to run an major hills at this point.
Well, I'm a beginning runner (started christmas, run a couple of times a
week) and it was such a nice day yesterday I went for a run on the moors
where I live - 5 miles horizontal, 1,100 ft vertical ascent and the same
descent. I'm pretty stiff today, but the only problem I had whilst
running was pins+needles in my feet and lower legs towards the end, but
they stopped shortly after I did :-) When I started running at
christmas I had awful shin splits just running on the flat, but not a
trace yesterday.
My advice would be this: If it gets too steep - walk a bit until your
lungs/legs recover and coming down steep bits, take shorter strides -
it'll stop you falling on your behind ;-) When I started running I used
to time myself etc etc, but I've stopped doing it - it's too easy to be
discouraged if you have an off day. My goal is to enjoy the running and
perhaps run a little further up the steep bits every time I go out - the
challenge is just being to get round. Listen to your body - if it hurts
too much - stop and have a rest!
Alan Burlison
Alan Burlison
> That (perp. to hill) may not work well unless the slope of the hill is
> very, very slight. In the majority of cases, remain upright
> (perpendicular to gravitational forces, not perpendicular to the
> hill). The only sustainable lean will be that which is required to
> overcome wind resistance. At a constant speed, that would be a steady
> state condition. If there were a tail wind equal to your downhill
> steady speed, no lean at all could be maintained!
Absolutely. To run down a 20 degree slope using the 'perpendicular to
the hill' approach means you would be leaning forward at 70 degrees.
You would be flat on your face in an instant.
Alan Burlison
René Huiskamp
sometimes run in other areas (I travel a lot and always take my running
gear with me on my business trips) which are flat, I get tired earlier. I
need hills. It seems that I need these varaiations in style and intensity.
The lucky thing about the area I run is that I can chose between a great
variation of different natural tracks, which are diferent in profile and
distance but are all interconnected, so if I feel particularry strong one
day, I take a long and very climbing track (total distance is 18 kms and it
is some 12 up-hill)
I also found out that in down hilll when your legs became a bit sore from
the up-hill part, you can kind of "throw" your leg and feet forward in a
sort of long forward jump landing again on your fore foot. (You "kick" them
loose)
This is relaxing and makes you recover. The worst is hitting in downhill
the heel. That should be avoided by placing the foot before landing in the
same angle as the track, even exagerating it a bit so that you slightly
land on your fore feet. Be carefull if you run on tracks with a slippery
surface down. You than can easily get injuries.
Have fun.
René
groun...@webtv.net escribió en artículo
<15117-36...@newsd-211.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
> To any experienced runners,
>
> I have been seriously running for about 8 weeks now. I currently run 14
> miles per week (3 miles Sunday, 4 Miles Mon., 5 Mi. Wed., and 2 Miles
> Thursday) at about a 7:45 per mile pace. I know that isn't very fast but
> I like running anyways!
>
> I live in a mountainous region and my running takes me up and down
> several steep hills. I'm worried about overstressing my joints or
> something, especially going downhill. Are there any precations I should
> take to prevent injury? A certain way to run or something?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
Ray Charbonneau
I've always run much better uphill than downhill. One part of that is
that I tend to be sort of swaybacked (you have to _use_ those muscles
developed by all those sit-ups), and uphills correct for that some,
while downhills exaggerate the problem.
Doug Freese wrote:
...
>Caveat Lector!
>Doug Freese dfr...@ibm.net
Beware cannibals?
Beware kitchen supply stores?
--
Ray Charbonneau
R107 - End User Computing
The MITRE Corporation
Y-Rotation
> No, I'm pretty sure of what I mean. Note that I say your torso should be
> almost perpendicular to the hill slope when GOING DOWN.
>
> Conal
>
> FreakOfNature (gh...@grave.com) wrote:
> : Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> : > Your torso
> : > should be almost perpendicular to the hill slope when going down.
> :
> : Pretty bizarre advice.
> : Only in movies can one walk up/down vertical surfaces.
I'm sure that you're sure of what you mean.
But that does not change the fact that it's a nonsense.
Like Freak said it. A pretty bizzare notion.
Given the gravitational acceleration of about 10 m/sec**2 this what would
theoretically happen on a 30 degree hill.
A frictionless mass on the hill is accelerated along the hill by about 5 m/sec**2
which means that it has a velocity of 5 m/s at the end of the first second.
Its velocity at the end of the next second is 10 m/s. 15 m/s at the end of the third.
So when you're perpendicular to the slope this is how fast you'd have to run
to avoid falling on your face.
Factoring in friction and other real world effects it might
take a few fractions of a second longer before you kiss the pavement than it would
under ideal (theoretical) conditions.
Pete, who paid attention in Physics class
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
body weight is falling forwards and that's how you move fast downwards.
Think about it. At least that's the way I've been "taught" (by books and
my own experience) to run downhills.
Or perhaps you have the wrong image. Let me draw in ASCII what I mean.
0
\
\ ---
\ ---
---
---
---
---
--------------------BASE OF THE HILL
Hopefully you can se the figure above. The hill is the triangular looking
thing. The person is the thing that looks like a stick figure. By
perpendicular to the hill slope, this is what I mean: The angle of your
body measured to the slope of the hill is 90 degrees. I am not talking
about 90 degrees measured from the BASE of the hill (which is marked on
the drawing above. Or put in other words, if you use a protractor, place
it on the slope of the hill (not the base) and then measure 90 degrees
from that angle. Gosh, I hope this is clear enough!
Conal
phons
I run rolling hills and have been doing so for a long time. The primary
organ when running is still the brain. Under all running conditions, your
body will let you know if its stressed, The trick is Knowing when its in the
danger zone. That takes a fair amount of experience and even then sometime
you can get it wrong. If you feel excessive stress on a part of your body,
adjust your form until you minimize that stress.when running up are down
hills, It may require shorter stride are it may require a longer stride.
it may require a forward lean a it may require running erect I don't
recommend getting on your toes unless you are a sprinter. When you become a
well conditioned runner, you'll find that you have developed a form that is
right for you. No offense to the book and other venders that monitor this
sight.
Best wishes
groun...@webtv.net wrote in message