Don't be a douchebag
aeiouy
I've seen this a couple of times as I'm finishing a race; running along,
busting my hump trying to get through the last couple of miles in one peice
and here comes some a-hole who's finished an hour ago running along going
the other way still wearing their bib. If the race wasn't long enough for
you or you still want to get some more miles in or are going back out to
look for a friend or whatever, fine. Take your bib off first. The people
who are still racing already know you're faster than they are. To go back
out with your bib still on just says "Look at me, I'm a douchebag."
Edward Edmonds
LOCs
+1
John Hurley
snip
If I were you I would try to chill a little.
I often run the course backwards after a race. It works nicely as a
cooldown and sometimes if one had a good race it is nice to see the
parts of the course where you felt strong.
If it bothers you seeing a race bib on then try running with eyes
closed!
Anthony
"aeiouy" <aei...@vowels.com> wrote in message
news:bpGdnavD17JKQJXW...@giganews.com...
I will admit to running backwards also - most often to meet a fellow
clubmate and/or family member and help them run in - although I
wouldn't enter the chute again...or to encourage the runners as they
reach the final stages...
And I've seen faster runners than me doing it as I'm finishing-
and it hasn't bothered me...
Now - if I take my number off, and run in with a friend -
I might get abused for running the race without a number....
Anthony.
Doug Freese
"John Hurley" <johnb...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:63d86590-3b01-4f1d...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
snip
+!
Sounds like vowel man has been drinking the wrong flavor of Massengill.
Try the extra mild vinegar and water. ;)
As john noted some are simply doing a warm down(usefulness questionable)
while watching the race and routing for spouses, friends and club
members. There may be a person or two that is flaunting their abilities
but let's not assume they are all of this ilk. Take off their number to
appease you? How insecure!
-D
John Hurley
snip
> Sounds like vowel man has been drinking the wrong flavor of Massengill.
> Try the extra mild vinegar and water. ;)
>
> As john noted some are simply doing a warm down(usefulness questionable)
> while watching the race and routing for spouses, friends and club
> members. There may be a person or two that is flaunting their abilities
> but let's not assume they are all of this ilk. Take off their number to
> appease you? How insecure!
Depending on the race organizer and event often door prizes and
"stuff" ( being charitable here ) is raffled off after a race plus
race awards.
For the raffles especially you may need to hang onto your race
number. Why take if off and maybe misplace it or lose it when you can
just keep it on?
As far as flaunting abilities that's a pretty weak conjecture. Why
would anyone enter a race if they are unwilling to admit that there
might be some ( varies by perspective ) fast people out there
somewhere?
D Stumpus
"aeiouy" <aei...@vowels.com> wrote
> If you're a really fast runner and you finish, stay finished.
I almost always run the course backwards for a 1-3 mile jog after a 5 or
10k.
Since I'm not really fast, do I get a pass??
I like to get a few extra miles in, I like to see the other runners, and I
cheer them on and keep an eye out for any acquaintances. They may be
slower, but most of them are just as focused and working just as hard. I
often do some finish-line cheering duty, too.
It's also practical to take advantage of the traffic-free race course. In
trail races, I usually pick whatever trail is the easiest for my post-race
jog.
I don't at all mind seeing faster runners jogging back as I'm finishing.
-1 :)
Tim Daneliuk
I've never been able to run backwards for any real distance - I
keep falling down. How do you do it?
>
> If it bothers you seeing a race bib on then try running with eyes
> closed!
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tun...@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Dot
that are running the course in reverse are courteous enough to get the
out of the way of remaining racers, not all of them are. Taking the bib
off, lets remaining racers know that you are no longer in the race, and
shouldn't feel obligated to yield - other than as courtesy to another
trail user. OTOH, if they're not courteous enough to yield to remaining
racers, they probably wouldn't take their bib off.
Sometimes these folks might be doubling back to run a friend in, so then
they do end up on the course again heading toward the finish, but not as
a racer. It can be confusing, esp. to newer racers, if someone left
their bib on (had they crossed the finish yet or not). Most people
around here take them off when they head back on the course - at least
in trail races.
Yea, I know - just don't finish so far back and it wouldn't be an
issue.;) Some of us like to enjoy the course more than others.
In our winter ultras here, when they DNF, they usually take their bibs
off as they make their way back to the start. And definitely take them
off when they hit the road part. That's important for insurance purposes
and PR in one section of the course. (course follows easeement of road,
but insurance does not cover anyone in road. automatic DQ if caught. The
road, usually hardpacked or plowed, or probably 2-3 times as fast as the
easement, which has marginal base.)
Dot
jobs
> John Hurley wrote:
>> On Nov 22, 1:44 am, "aeiouy" <aei...@vowels.com> wrote:
>>
>> snip
>>
>>> If you're a really fast runner and you finish, stay finished.
>>>
>>> I've seen this a couple of times as I'm finishing a race; running along,
>>> busting my hump trying to get through the last couple of miles in one peice
>>> and here comes some a-hole who's finished an hour ago running along going
>>> the other way still wearing their bib. If the race wasn't long enough for
>>> you or you still want to get some more miles in or are going back out to
>>> look for a friend or whatever, fine. Take your bib off first. The people
>>> who are still racing already know you're faster than they are. To go back
>>> out with your bib still on just says "Look at me, I'm a douchebag."
>> If I were you I would try to chill a little.
>>
>> I often run the course backwards after a race. It works nicely as a
>> cooldown and sometimes if one had a good race it is nice to see the
>> parts of the course where you felt strong.
>
> I've never been able to run backwards for any real distance - I
> keep falling down. How do you do it?
>
If I'm not mistaken, what John probably meant when he said "backwards"
is that he goes from the finish line to the start line of the race, but
still running forward.
As for running (really) backwards, it all starts with a step. Trying
walking backwards for a few days and when you get comfortable with it,
you can graduate to running backwards. Good luck.
jobs
Elflord
Most people don't dispose of their bibs immediately upon completing the course. At
least one good reason not to do it in the races in NJ or NY is that you will need
your bib to retrieve your baggage from the baggage claim area. I doubt that many of
those who fail to go to the trouble of disposing their bibs at the finish line do so
to intimidate slower finishers.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
"RRings best troll" -- Mr Billie on rec.running
Elflord
> I will admit to running backwards also - most often to meet a fellow
> clubmate and/or family member and help them run in - although I
> wouldn't enter the chute again...or to encourage the runners as they
> reach the final stages...
Cheering them on is fine, but running into or towards the chute with them
violates the rules of competition (both in letter and in spirit -- this is
not a minor technicality).
> Now - if I take my number off, and run in with a friend -
> I might get abused for running the race without a number....
Once you've completed the race, you're not in the race any more -- so you really
shouldn't be running on the course (*especially* not to pace or otherwise act as
"support personnel" for other runners)
Cheers,
--
Elflord
"RRings best troll" - Mr Billie on rec.running
Doug Freese
"Dot" <aktra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hecic2$nob$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Doug Freese wrote:
>> "John Hurley" <johnb...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:63d86590-3b01-4f1d...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 22, 1:44 am, "aeiouy" <aei...@vowels.com> wrote:
> I'm gonna disagree with you - one of the few times.;)
Does that mean the marriage is off? :)
> While most people that are running the course in reverse are courteous
> enough to get the out of the way of remaining racers, not all of them
> are.
I can't speak for the North country but I have yet to bump into a
runner doing the back stroke getting in the way. That is a real rookie
mistake.
> Taking the bib off, lets remaining racers know that you are no longer
> in the race, and shouldn't feel obligated to yield - other than as
> courtesy to another trail user.
Hmm, if someone is in the way coming at me, I'm not sure I'd care much
if they had a number on or not, I'm on alert. If they have their number
on I would feel free to yell "get the *&^% out of way" cuz they should
know better. If no number they could be someone not in race and has the
same rights to the trail as you without trail etiquette.
> Sometimes these folks might be doubling back to run a friend in, so
> then they do end up on the course again heading toward the finish, but
> not as a racer. It can be confusing, esp. to newer racers, if someone
> left their bib on (had they crossed the finish yet or not). Most
> people around here take them off when they head back on the course -
> at least in trail races.
This must be local tradition because it's very rare that a runner who
has already finished would even think to back into the chute area. It's
true, not having a number on may help the scorer from timing him twice
but this also assumes it is not a congested finish. I guess if someone
was to look back, as most numbers are worn on the front, they would see
an extra runner and cause some competitive concern.
> Yea, I know - just don't finish so far back and it wouldn't be an
> issue.;) Some of us like to enjoy the course more than others.
I got my $$$$$ worth in my last race. :)
Additional note for my local races(road and trail), you had best at
least keep your number with you or you're not going to get close to the
food or drink at the finish and if a large race, those places restricted
to runners only sucj as buses as Elflord noted. Even someone that DNF's
still has rights to the finish amenities. It's only the scorer that may
need to know and only if they are doing a body count.
Heck, in many of the small races of less than 125, there are no numbers
so in these races you have to rely on runners using their common sense.
Can't tell the forest from the trees. I would suspect we don't have the
same issues with numbers that you do because the running population is
more knowledgeable as we have 2-5 races each and every weekend if I
draw a 30 mile radius. The number of first time rookies are rare.
As for any trail/ultra race that I have run, I have never heard any
requirement to take off your number if you DNF. I have seen runners tear
them off but more out of frustration/disappointment. And if you are in
the middle of race and for some reason can't finish and/or have having
problems you want for safety reasons to keep you number on, so you are
not thought to be a hiker and ignored as you wander off into the sunset.
I'm stubborn on this one, as a runner and some time RD I want the
numbers to stay on or darn close until they change and go home.
Doug - don't come to the altar without your number on. :) :)
Dot
> "Dot" <aktra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hecic2$nob$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Doug Freese wrote:
>>> "John Hurley" <johnb...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>> news:63d86590-3b01-4f1d...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Nov 22, 1:44 am, "aeiouy" <aei...@vowels.com> wrote:
>> I'm gonna disagree with you - one of the few times.;)
>
> Does that mean the marriage is off? :)
>
>> While most people that are running the course in reverse are courteous
>> enough to get the out of the way of remaining racers, not all of them
>> are.
>
> I can't speak for the North country but I have yet to bump into a
> runner doing the back stroke getting in the way. That is a real rookie
> mistake.
Occasionally there's a fast idiot that doesn't expect to run into racers
still on the course. But, yea, it's rare.
>
>> Taking the bib off, lets remaining racers know that you are no longer
>> in the race, and shouldn't feel obligated to yield - other than as
>> courtesy to another trail user.
>
> Hmm, if someone is in the way coming at me, I'm not sure I'd care much
> if they had a number on or not, I'm on alert. If they have their number
> on I would feel free to yell "get the *&^% out of way" cuz they should
> know better. If no number they could be someone not in race and has the
> same rights to the trail as you without trail etiquette.
The spectators or accidental runners (runners who forgot there was a
race on that trail that night) usually aren't an issue, since by the
time I come in they've figured out there's a race going on.
>
>
>> Sometimes these folks might be doubling back to run a friend in, so
>> then they do end up on the course again heading toward the finish, but
>> not as a racer. It can be confusing, esp. to newer racers, if someone
>> left their bib on (had they crossed the finish yet or not). Most
>> people around here take them off when they head back on the course -
>> at least in trail races.
>
> This must be local tradition because it's very rare that a runner who
> has already finished would even think to back into the chute area. It's
> true, not having a number on may help the scorer from timing him twice
> but this also assumes it is not a congested finish. I guess if someone
> was to look back, as most numbers are worn on the front, they would see
> an extra runner and cause some competitive concern.
In the case I was thinking of, it was my first trail race (2nd race if
you count my winter tri), and a couple of us were battling it out not to
be last. I was in front. There were a couple wide spots where I had
pulled way to the side to give her the chance to pass if she wanted. At
one point she was only a couple steps behind me as judged by the sound
of dirt going to mud with footsteps. She hadn't called for the trail, so
I didn't step off the trail. She was starting to fade. Her friend then
came back - with his bib number still on, iirc - and paced her in. She
then started getting closer to me. My gut feeling was that the guy had
already crossed the finish and was coming back for his friend. I didn't
feel obligated to go out of my way to let two of them pass - only one of
whom was still in the race. But it's possible he may have run close to
the finish, not gone through the chute, then come back out.
I may be slow, but don't expect me to stop to let assisted runners pass,
esp. when she couldn't pass on her own.
If he hadn't had a bib on, there would have been no question in my mind
as to whether he was still in the race or not.
But in most cases, esp. when it's something like an uphill only race,
the people running back to their cars have taken their bibs off. May be
stashed in a pocket. And they did move off into the deeper snow so the
remaining racers didn't have to fight the loose stuff. (the reason it
was uphill only is there was too much snow to get through the pass safely)
>
>> Yea, I know - just don't finish so far back and it wouldn't be an
>> issue.;) Some of us like to enjoy the course more than others.
>
> I got my $$$$$ worth in my last race. :)
>
> Additional note for my local races(road and trail), you had best at
> least keep your number with you or you're not going to get close to the
> food or drink at the finish and if a large race, those places restricted
> to runners only sucj as buses as Elflord noted. Even someone that DNF's
> still has rights to the finish amenities. It's only the scorer that may
> need to know and only if they are doing a body count.
But in his other response to Anthony, he suggested that if you're done
the race, don't go back on the course.
Our races are a bit more personal than yours. There's only one that
needed a bib for food. Most races don't have too much after, and those
that do are personal enough that people recognize you - even if you're
an out of towner. Actually, most of my races I don't need a bib -
benefits of being last or close to it. And the races I've done several
times, the RD's know me.
>
> Heck, in many of the small races of less than 125, there are no numbers
> so in these races you have to rely on runners using their common sense.
> Can't tell the forest from the trees. I would suspect we don't have the
> same issues with numbers that you do because the running population is
> more knowledgeable as we have 2-5 races each and every weekend if I
> draw a 30 mile radius. The number of first time rookies are rare.
Nah, the problem is that you folks have so many people, you need to
reduce them to numbers.;) (we do that with our mtn bike races too since
I'm not about to write someone's name out when it's 0F - numbers are a
nice shorthand)
>
> As for any trail/ultra race that I have run, I have never heard any
> requirement to take off your number if you DNF.
It might be that they don't take them off until back on road in that one
case. But as long as you have a bib on, you're part of the race. RAce
prohibits people on road (insurance and PR issues). And some of those
bibs / bike plates / numbers on sleds may be hard to take off
completely, so only one needs to be removed, iirc.
I have seen runners tear
> them off but more out of frustration/disappointment. And if you are in
> the middle of race and for some reason can't finish and/or have having
> problems you want for safety reasons to keep you number on, so you are
> not thought to be a hiker and ignored as you wander off into the sunset.
True, but again, we tend to have a smaller number of racers - caps of
50-125 for winter races.
>
> I'm stubborn on this one, as a runner and some time RD I want the
> numbers to stay on or darn close until they change and go home.
Then stay off the course if you're finished the race.;) You have a
place to change after your races? Geez.;)
>
> Doug - don't come to the altar without your number on. :) :)
Hmmm, I think only 2 of my races this year even bothered with numbers =
my 10k and HM. My 8mi, 15mi, 50mi, and 3 xc didn't use them - including
3 races in the 800-1000 runner neighborhood. I almost got through this
year with no t-shirts, but HM messed up my record (and didn't even have
the cool t shirt icon they've used in the past - bummed out about that).
And ya better learn how to snowshoe run.;)
Dot
Doug Freese
> In the case I was thinking of, it was my first trail race (2nd race if
> you count my winter tri), and a couple of us were battling it out not
> to be last. I was in front. There were a couple wide spots where I had
> pulled way to the side to give her the chance to pass if she wanted.
> At one point she was only a couple steps behind me as judged by the
> sound of dirt going to mud with footsteps. She hadn't called for the
> trail, so I didn't step off the trail. She was starting to fade. Her
> friend then came back - with his bib number still on, iirc - and paced
> her in. She then started getting closer to me. My gut feeling was that
> the guy had already crossed the finish and was coming back for his
> friend. I didn't feel obligated to go out of my way to let two of them
> pass - only one of whom was still in the race. But it's possible he
> may have run close to the finish, not gone through the chute, then
> come back out.
This is a touchy issue and far from new and beat to death in almost any
trail/ultra race forum. IFF( in the mathematical usage), the race
allows pacers they are both legit runners, numbers or not. They are not
runners that have finished and come back but are usually numberless and
fresh legged.
Using a wide brush, unless the course is closed to outsiders then any
person that wants to get by should be allowed. This is basic trail
ettiquette.
> I may be slow, but don't expect me to stop to let assisted runners
> pass, esp. when she couldn't pass on her own.
If the race does not allow pacers then I can understand about holding
your ground. If they are allowed, then it's only proper tolet them both
by.
> But in his other response to Anthony, he suggested that if you're done
> the race, don't go back on the course.
Anyone can suggest. ;)
> Our races are a bit more personal than yours. There's only one that
> needed a bib for food. Most races don't have too much after, and those
> that do are personal enough that people recognize you - even if you're
> an out of towner. Actually, most of my races I don't need a bib -
> benefits of being last or close to it. And the races I've done several
> times, the RD's know me.
As I suspected. In civilization. aka the lower 48, a race of 300
runners could easly have another 200 support people hanging out at tfhe
finish which typically has lots post race goodies. If one is not careful
the fans will eat everything in sight.
> Nah, the problem is that you folks have so many people, you need to
> reduce them to numbers.;) (we do that with our mtn bike races too
> since I'm not about to write someone's name out when it's 0F - numbers
> are a nice shorthand)
We are respectful and call them Mr. 3 and Mrs 4.
>> I'm stubborn on this one, as a runner and some time RD I want the
>> numbers to stay on or darn close until they change and go home.
>
> Then stay off the course if you're finished the race.;)
Nope! I like to go back and root for my friends. Gotta keep them happy.
:)
> You have a place to change after your races? Geez.;)
Yes, my car.
> And ya better learn how to snowshoe run.;)
I gotta have snow first. Some years only the ski slopes, which make
their snow, have the white stuff. If it was every year I might try it.
We had to drive 50+ miles western mass or further upstate to find a
trail.
-D
Dot
> "Dot" <aktra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hed83s$atg$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>> In the case I was thinking of, it was my first trail race (2nd race if
>> you count my winter tri), and a couple of us were battling it out not
>> to be last. I was in front. There were a couple wide spots where I had
>> pulled way to the side to give her the chance to pass if she wanted.
>> At one point she was only a couple steps behind me as judged by the
>> sound of dirt going to mud with footsteps. She hadn't called for the
>> trail, so I didn't step off the trail. She was starting to fade. Her
>> friend then came back - with his bib number still on, iirc - and paced
>> her in. She then started getting closer to me. My gut feeling was that
>> the guy had already crossed the finish and was coming back for his
>> friend. I didn't feel obligated to go out of my way to let two of them
>> pass - only one of whom was still in the race. But it's possible he
>> may have run close to the finish, not gone through the chute, then
>> come back out.
>
> This is a touchy issue and far from new and beat to death in almost any
> trail/ultra race forum. IFF( in the mathematical usage), the race
> allows pacers they are both legit runners, numbers or not. They are not
> runners that have finished and come back but are usually numberless and
> fresh legged.
This was a 4-mile race, not USATF, afaik. No specific statements about
pacers or not for this race. From Alaska Runner's Calendar (bible for
the state, unless race says otherwise), under Running Tips: "No pacing
by non-race participants."
>
> Using a wide brush, unless the course is closed to outsiders then any
> person that wants to get by should be allowed. This is basic trail
> ettiquette.
They did not call for the trail, nor were they as close as she was when
I pulled way to the side (off the firm tread) to let her pass a couple
times earlier.
I'll admit, at the time, I was confused since it was my first race, and
I wasn't sure. (other people just running back to their cars at the
start, which I eventually figured out, but they pulled off the course
immediately to let racers by) But it is a race.
FWIW, when we hit the rooty section, I heard him tell her something
about being careful to not hurt her ankle again. Whether she is normally
a faster runner or not I don't know. Anyway, I soon was out of earshot
of their footsteps, took off through the last downhill, and finished
about 9 sec in front. (there was actually another person about 1 min
behind, so it wasn't really the battle for last that I thought it was at
the time) My gut feeling is that if I had stopped to let them by, I
would have had to pass them again within a minute or so. And I would
have had to pass 2 of them. Kind of like passing a semi on a road / race
built for small cars.
The width of the trail was probably wide single track to wide track in
some places - very old construction route. It's the kind of trail that
when you pass in most places, there's probably room to get by - if both
go off the good tread. IOW, pass cleanly so both can get back on the
firmer part of tread quickly. (this contrasts with, say, Kincaid, with
the well-kept ski trails where there's good firm ground for 3+ people,
and you can pass more slowly or just stay at one's own pace at the right
side and be oblivious to what others are doing)
>
>
>> I may be slow, but don't expect me to stop to let assisted runners
>> pass, esp. when she couldn't pass on her own.
>
> If the race does not allow pacers then I can understand about holding
> your ground. If they are allowed, then it's only proper tolet them both
> by.
In longer races, I do pull over and politely ask someone if they want to
get by since those people were out of earshot then getting closer. Their
reply frequently is that they've been pacing off me and don't want to go
any faster. They may follow a little farther behind after that since
they felt they were probably in my space (if you know what I mean) and
just wanted to do their own thing, as most people in that race do. After
the top of the hill, I don't think they were anywhere near me. Although
they may have been smart and put on shells before hitting treeline.
In race under discussion, a regular trail user would have yielded to a
race without anything being said. I'm not sure if some of the people I
see along the trail are just trail users that weren't aware of the race
or actual spectators.
>> But in his other response to Anthony, he suggested that if you're done
>> the race, don't go back on the course.
>
> Anyone can suggest. ;)
>
>> Our races are a bit more personal than yours. There's only one that
>> needed a bib for food. Most races don't have too much after, and those
>> that do are personal enough that people recognize you - even if you're
>> an out of towner. Actually, most of my races I don't need a bib -
>> benefits of being last or close to it. And the races I've done several
>> times, the RD's know me.
>
> As I suspected. In civilization. aka the lower 48, a race of 300
> runners could easly have another 200 support people hanging out at tfhe
> finish which typically has lots post race goodies. If one is not careful
> the fans will eat everything in sight.
Heck, it's sometimes the spectators or supporters that bring the
goodies.:) One of the best spreads (below full-out barbque) I've seen
was at the free Granite Tors race. People (racers and supporters)
brought pies, cakes, and not sure what else. There was still food for us
later finishers. They usually have a barbq but the guy with the grill
couldn't make it. Fairbanks has a really nice running community.
>
>
>> Nah, the problem is that you folks have so many people, you need to
>> reduce them to numbers.;) (we do that with our mtn bike races too
>> since I'm not about to write someone's name out when it's 0F - numbers
>> are a nice shorthand)
>
> We are respectful and call them Mr. 3 and Mrs 4.
>
>>> I'm stubborn on this one, as a runner and some time RD I want the
>>> numbers to stay on or darn close until they change and go home.
>> Then stay off the course if you're finished the race.;)
>
> Nope! I like to go back and root for my friends. Gotta keep them happy.
> :)
Just don't confuse the newbies.:)
>
>> You have a place to change after your races? Geez.;)
>
> Yes, my car.
>
>> And ya better learn how to snowshoe run.;)
>
> I gotta have snow first. Some years only the ski slopes, which make
> their snow, have the white stuff. If it was every year I might try it.
> We had to drive 50+ miles western mass or further upstate to find a
> trail.
We were starting to get a decent layer (packable, not mashed potato
stuff like last year), not enough to snowshoe on yet, and cold (waay
subzero), but it's gotten near freezing in the last couple days.
Overcast skies like it's supposed to snow, but nothing more yet.
Dot
Dot
person even saw a coach physically assist some one so they wouldn't be
last. But most really could have cared less as long as the people
finished the race stayed out of the way. Some others suggested removing
bibs when you've crossed the finish line. Obviously the people that saw
no problem with it were the faster ones and were the ones doubling back.;)
Dot
where the heck did 45 and rain come from when it was -10F a week ago
with nice snow on the ground. (change usually happens faster than that,
but geez)
aeiouy
"Doug Freese" <dfr...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:heb9fb$s0a$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The majority of races in Honolulu have the same finish; over the ocean side
of Diamondhead and down Kalakaua Ave to the finish line just before the
statue of Queen Kapiolani. Then everybody hangs around that end of the park
for a while. Because of this configuration almost every reason people
responding to this post have listed for being back out on the course with
your bib on is not valid. No, the only reason for somebody to be charging
back up Diamondhead with their bib on after finishing is so everybody can
see that even after X number of miles they can still charge back up
Diamondhead. That says 'douchebag' to me.
I doesn't bother me if somebody is faster than me or not (except in the last
kilometer or so). At races, I leave my ego in the car.
Doug Freese
> Doug Freese wrote:
> In longer races, I do pull over and politely ask someone if they want
> to get by since those people were out of earshot then getting closer.
> Their reply frequently is that they've been pacing off me and don't
> want to go any faster. They may follow a little farther behind after
> that since they felt they were probably in my space (if you know what
> I mean) and just wanted to do their own thing, as most people in that
> race do. After the top of the hill, I don't think they were anywhere
> near me. Although they may have been smart and put on shells before
> hitting treeline.
In the first 1/2 of race(train not road) I don't like people on my
butt. I often find myself pressing more than I want. I will verbally ask
if they want the trail. if they say they just like my pace I will go
with if for few and then do a potty stop. Not many come up on me in the
second half.
-D
Our temps have still be in the 40's with just a hint of snow in the
higher elevations. The ski slopes are making snow to draw bird
day/weekend enthusiasts.
Doug Freese
> Ironically, there was a thread on another forum that started today.
> One person even saw a coach physically assist some one so they
> wouldn't be last.
IMO, It doesn't say much for the coach's ethics.
-D
dandelion
> "Doug Freese" <dfre...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:heb9fb$s0a$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "John Hurley" <johnbhur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
Your ego may be somewhere, sir, but it is most certainly NOT in the
car.
I hate to disagree with you, but calling someone a "douchebag" because
they're not subscribing to *your* rules in *your* little corner of the
world...
No, wait a minute; I don't hate to disagree with you. I love to
disagree with you. At BolderBoulder, which nets some 50,000+ runners
annually, racers run the course in reverse after finishing all the
time. The finish chutes at BB are setup to discourage this practice,
but it hardly keeps anyone who wants to run it in reverse--for any
distance--from doing so. BB also finishes with a 1/4 mile push up a
nasty hill to Folsom Field...so plenty of finished runners with and
without bibs on could also be construed as being "douchebags" as they
are charging back up that awful hill again as well. I just figure
they're insane, but I'm also a 13+ minute miler.
If you're going to post commentary on races in your hometown and their
problematic participants, fine. But don't extend it to everyone across
the running community. Makes you look like a bit of a douchebag.
~dandelion
runsrealfast
If you don't like it run faster so you beat that person...
dizzy
Good troll!
The way I see it, we're all friends on race day, and we all know
there's a wide range of speeds, so who cares?
Brown Cat
As they go past shout "You're going the wrong way!"
Ed Prochak
I second that thought!
aeiouy
> Ironically, there was a thread on another forum that started today. One
> person even saw a coach physically assist some one so they wouldn't be
> last. But most really could have cared less as long as the people finished
> the race stayed out of the way. Some others suggested removing bibs when
> you've crossed the finish line. Obviously the people that saw no problem
> with it were the faster ones and were the ones doubling back.;)
aeiouy
>
> "Dot" <aktra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:heepse$v7k$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Doug Freese wrote:
>> In longer races, I do pull over and politely ask someone if they want to
>> get by since those people were out of earshot then getting closer. Their
>> reply frequently is that they've been pacing off me and don't want to go
>> any faster. They may follow a little farther behind after that since they
>> felt they were probably in my space (if you know what I mean) and just
>> wanted to do their own thing, as most people in that race do. After the
>> top of the hill, I don't think they were anywhere near me. Although they
>> may have been smart and put on shells before hitting treeline.
>
> In the first 1/2 of race(train not road) I don't like people on my butt.
> I often find myself pressing more than I want. I will verbally ask if they
> want the trail. if they say they just like my pace I will go with if for
> few and then do a potty stop. Not many come up on me in the second half.
the positive side; when somebody does that to me it gives me extra incentive
to stay ahead of and/or pass them
aeiouy
line since I know roughly 50% of the field is going to kick my ass before
the gun ever sounds. Even worse when broken down by AG
>
> I hate to disagree with you, but calling someone a "douchebag" because
> they're not subscribing to *your* rules in *your* little corner of the
> world...
>
> No, wait a minute; I don't hate to disagree with you. I love to
> disagree with you. At BolderBoulder, which nets some 50,000+ runners
> annually, racers run the course in reverse after finishing all the
> time. The finish chutes at BB are setup to discourage this practice,
> but it hardly keeps anyone who wants to run it in reverse--for any
> distance--from doing so. BB also finishes with a 1/4 mile push up a
> nasty hill to Folsom Field...so plenty of finished runners with and
> without bibs on could also be construed as being "douchebags" as they
> are charging back up that awful hill again as well. I just figure
> they're insane, but I'm also a 13+ minute miler.
If they're back out on the course after they've already finished running the
last 1/4 mile while runners are still coming in then they're douchebags.
aeiouy
"D Stumpus" <dstumpu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:hebu4o$4pb$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
just says "Hey look at me."
>
> -1 :)
>
aeiouy
"Brown Cat" <br...@eye.invalid> wrote in message
news:PdgQm.38168$F44....@newsfe21.ams2...
Doug Freese
"aeiouy" <aei...@vowels.com> wrote in message
news:H7qdnQ7BtMxZ84rW...@giganews.com...
>
> "Doug Freese" <dfr...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:hegofu$6fj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> butt. I often find myself pressing more than I want. I will verbally
>> ask if they want the trail. if they say they just like my pace I will
>> go with if for few and then do a potty stop. Not many come up on me
>> in the second half.
> Pacing off somebody with their permission is also a douchebag move
> IMHO.
Why? It's very common for people to settle in and end up running
together at the same pace. If the trail is wide enough you can run side
by side and talk. Many times the trail is too narrow and one does happen
to be in the front. I have run single file with a person for an hour or
more, talked about having kids, and never seen therir face until an aid
station. When the person does not talk and all you hear is them
breathing, I'll stop and take a piss.
If you thinking about pacing as if one is in front of the other and
shielding the wind, this does not happen in trail races. In road races,
it is tacky to hang back and run in the others slip stream unless you
take turns.
> On the positive side; when somebody does that to me it gives me extra
> incentive to stay ahead of and/or pass them
But this can also backfire. If you try to stay ahead and it makes you
run faster than you would normally, you may end up glycogen depelated
too early. Surging can be tricky.
-D
Doug Freese
>> finishing.
> I don't mind it either, I just think doing it while still wearing your
> bib just says "Hey look at me."
If the person takes their bib off, you can then tell yourself they may
not have run the race and whipped your butt? Sounds like you have a
self-esteem issue.
Does it fire you up even more if it's a female? Write to Dr. Phil maybe
he will cover this on his TV show.
-D
Michelle
"aeiouy" <aei...@vowels.com> wrote:
> > As they go past shout "You're going the wrong way!"
> >
> I am so using this
I'm in a position to see almost all of those running the course backwards
after they finish the race, and I've always used that line.
--
26.2 Because I can
John Hurley
snip
> If you thinking about pacing as if one is in front of the other and
> shielding the wind, this does not happen in trail races. In road races,
> it is tacky to hang back and run in the others slip stream unless you
> take turns.
A race is a competition and as such has a tactical strategy as part of
it. Bottom line if on a given day the tactic that was chosen was to
pace off someone and use the advantage of running in a slipstream
that's a completely fair and legitimate tactic.
So I don't think it is tacky at all. Just tactical.
It is perhaps not a tactic that is often not well received and for me
personally it gets me pissed off ... but it can at times be extremely
effective.
Using names like "douchebag" certainly seems like a different and
strange tactic. I think that strategy will be much less usefull than
pacing behind someone ... just my opinion.
Doug Freese
On Dec 3, 7:28 am, "Doug Freese" <dfre...@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>A race is a competition and as such has a tactical strategy as part of
it. Bottom line if on a given day the tactic that was chosen was to
pace off someone and use the advantage of running in a slipstream
that's a completely fair and legitimate tactic.
So I don't think it is tacky at all. Just tactical.>
We live on different sides of this. I think it's a tacky tact. ;) If
you not willing to work together and take turns until you get close to
the finish line, then you're looking for a sneaky advantage. You may
think it's part of being competitive and tactical - not me. IMO, to win
a race using such tactics waters down the victory.
-D
Charlie Pendejo
> A race is a competition and as such has a tactical strategy as part of
> it. Bottom line if on a given day the tactic that was chosen was to
> pace off someone and use the advantage of running in a slipstream
> that's a completely fair and legitimate tactic.
I agree, to the extent that a race _is_ a competition. Clearly those
in contention for the outright win, for prize money, even to a large
extent for AG awards, are competing and the most effective tactic
isn't always the most polite or altruistic.
But at least as a matter of degree, the appropriateness of ruthless
tactics is surely different when you're battling for 1043rd place in
your local turkey trot. I mean, even if you're a hardcore serious
competitor, you've got to anticipate that the 1042nd and 1044th place
runners are gonna be less receptive to this stuff than the top few
guys. Or in some hippie trail race vs. the track - different
cultures.
> It is perhaps not a tactic that is often not well received and for me
> personally it gets me pissed off ...
And apparently, despite what I wrote above, occasionally pisses off
some top-level racers too. I love this clip where a young Geb
outkicks a Kenyan seconds from the finish after sitting on him for
some time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5jfOgxSeYo
Edward Edmonds
Sometimes during training runs I'll draft behind people who are jogging
around just to practice a little pack running and to be a little twit,
usually they turn the corner :-) (it's not that I'm being a prick more
so my sense of humor, which thankfully the German runner's seem to pick
up on) but I've had a few stay with me and had a nice run with them.
What's interesting is the psychological effect, some people seem to get
tired faster when they're with somebody else, and some people seem to
feed off of it.
Today I actually took a more civil approach when I was coming around a
bend I saw another guy coming so I waited for him said hi and asked if I
could join him for the rest of his run. It was a lot of fun he was
telling me that usually he only goes on his normal route but since I was
with me he'd go longer, he was just a "rec" runner doesn't race or
anything, but I could tell that because another person was with him he
was able to go quite a bit further then normal.
I don't think I'd have a problem with somebody on my ass during a race,
now if he clipped my heels or something like that then we might have to
exchange some words. But if he's just hanging on behind me or next to
me, be my guest and may the best man win, personally I like the company.
Even if you're in last place with no chance of winning I wouldn't mind
somebody running next to me, I guess if s/he was behind me I'd turn
around and invite them up to run next to me because it's like there's no
point in running behind somebody if your in last place, that way we
could finish together. If they didn't want to move up then I'd move out
of the way and if they followed me still then I'd just start running
zig-zag's till they got pissed off and passed me then I'd draft behind
them. :-)
John Hurley
snip
> I don't think I'd have a problem with somebody on my ass during a race,
> now if he clipped my heels or something like that then we might have to
> exchange some words. But if he's just hanging on behind me or next to
> me, be my guest and may the best man win, personally I like the company.
Sometimes it bothers me when someone is dogging me other times not so
much.
I guess it bothers me the most when they seem to be a real heavy
breather and the noise is starting to distract me. If that's the case
usually a couple of strong surges and you don't hear them any more.
It can be real fun psyching people who are trying to hang onto you.
You never ( or at least I don't ) turn and look behind you ... that's
a sign of weakness that you are trying to figure out who they are and
how much they have left.
It is pretty rare for me to hang onto someone in front of me only in a
couple of cases where they seemed to be just barely faster than the
pace I was capable of maintaining.
Both as a race tactic and partly for the psyching part when I do close
on someone I might sit behind them for a little bit ( 10 secs ? might
vary a bit based on how strong I feel ) then put a strong pass on them
and open up a 10 yard interval as quickly as I can. It is partly a
psych but also you don't want to let them benefit from drafting on
you.
It is a race and you apply the tactics that make sense to you during
the race.
Ed Prochak
Unless it is a VERY windy day, drafting does not pay much benefit at
the 10minute mile pace AFAICT. The psyching factor does play apart in
the back of the pack. I do try to open up a lead on others I pass.
Learning a few years ago about doing surges in a race really helped.
(Before that I tried to always maintain a level effort throughout.)
Regarding the runners going back on the course, I don't care.
I had someone come back and pace me in in my first race. I appreciated
the boost, though I would have finished without it. If it helps
someone in the back pack, fine with me. It may give me incentive to
run faster too.
Final thought: Those runners going back out are like the jam cars on
the freeway. They do not know you exist or even care. They are
thinking about their own life. Like Ozzy used to put it, they are
empty boats on the river. Use cation, but otherwise, it is still a
nice run.
Ed
Doug Freese
"Ed Prochak" <edpr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2265cbf0-8584-4a6b...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
"Empty boat", I miss Ozzie's wisdom.
-D
aeiouy
>
> "aeiouy" <aei...@vowels.com> wrote in message
> news:H7qdnQ7BtMxZ84rW...@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Doug Freese" <dfr...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:hegofu$6fj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> In the first 1/2 of race(train not road) I don't like people on my
>>> butt. I often find myself pressing more than I want. I will verbally ask
>>> if they want the trail. if they say they just like my pace I will go
>>> with if for few and then do a potty stop. Not many come up on me in the
>>> second half.
>
>> Pacing off somebody with their permission is also a douchebag move IMHO.
>
> Why? It's very common for people to settle in and end up running together
> at the same pace. If the trail is wide enough you can run side by side and
> talk. Many times the trail is too narrow and one does happen to be in the
> front. I have run single file with a person for an hour or more, talked
> about having kids, and never seen therir face until an aid station. When
> the person does not talk and all you hear is them breathing, I'll stop and
> take a piss.
Wow I suck at getting my point across in this thread. Maybe my flippant use
of the word douchebag set people off...
Anyway what I meant about pacing off of somebody is not when two people just
happen to end up running at the same pace. Most races of any sort of decent
turnout that's going to happen. And like you said it's a good way to make a
friend even if the friendship only lasts until the next waterstop. What I
was refering to is the guy or gal who is pseudo-Gallowalking or can't hold a
pace and speeds up or slows down depending on where they are in relationship
to you. Maybe this doesn't happen up front but back in the pack it does.
I'm not fast but my pacing is very steady so I notice it. As soon as you
catch/pass somebody they take off and then another 1/2 mile later you pass
them, they take off, repeat until they finally stay passed.
>
> If you thinking about pacing as if one is in front of the other and
> shielding the wind, this does not happen in trail races. In road races, it
> is tacky to hang back and run in the others slip stream unless you take
> turns.
>
>
>> On the positive side; when somebody does that to me it gives me extra
>> incentive to stay ahead of and/or pass them
>
> But this can also backfire. If you try to stay ahead and it makes you run
> faster than you would normally, you may end up glycogen depelated too
> early. Surging can be tricky.
Agreed. And getting POed at somebody in a race will make you run faster
than you normally would.
>
> -D
>
Doug Freese
> Wow I suck at getting my point across in this thread. Maybe my
> flippant use of the word douchebag set people off...
Like calling a girl a Ho as you pick up up for a date. :)
> Anyway what I meant about pacing off of somebody is not when two
> people just happen to end up running at the same pace. Most races of
> any sort of decent turnout that's going to happen. And like you said
> it's a good way to make a friend even if the friendship only lasts
> until the next waterstop.
Gotcha.
>What I was refering to is the guy or gal who is pseudo-Gallowalking or
>can't hold a pace and speeds up or slows down depending on where they
>are in relationship to you. Maybe this doesn't happen up front but
>back in the pack it does. I'm not fast but my pacing is very steady so
>I notice it. As soon as you catch/pass somebody they take off and then
>another 1/2 mile later you pass them, they take off, repeat until they
>finally stay passed.
Not to sound disparaging to people running at slower paces but in my
experience(and I do run at the back of race when I'm not racing and
supporting a race) is their lack of ability to hold an even pace. These
aren't people trying bust someones cajones but they lack speed work and
often make sharp alterations.
There were times in some races where I was allegedly racing and would
zone out until someone would pass me that usually finished behind me,
and I would wake up and pick up the pace.
It's possible they are trying to fend you off but lousy pacing abilities
or knowledge. I'd put this is the rookies category and not quite DB.
OTOH, if it's someone running in the 9 MM group that can runs 6 MM
busting your gonads, I might dump a vinegar douche over his/her head. ;)
-D
Charlie Pendejo
> Not to sound disparaging to people running at slower paces but in my
> experience(and I do run at the back of race when I'm not racing and
> supporting a race) is their lack of ability to hold an even pace. These
> aren't people trying bust someones cajones but they lack speed work and
> often make sharp alterations.
Sometimes at the front of the middle of the pack too. Some dude
passed me emphatically at least four or five times in the first six,
eight miles of my recent marathon.