Van Aaken + Lydiard
EDWARD EDMONDS
Lydiard's aerobic base building you did Aaken's and then topped off the
cake with ALL of Lydiards final phases, especially the structured hill
resistance phase, I think most people these days when following the
Lydiard schedules except for maybe the die hard Lydiard geeks, skip the
hill resistance phase and instead run a lot of hilly courses during base
building as a replacement for that work which I think can sometimes work
against you depending on how hilly the course is and how far over the
aerobic threshold you go. (I have a tendency to think that out of all
Lydiard's phases the hill resistance phase is the most crucial.)
I was planning on running as usual till the end of December then doing
the final Lydiard phases starting on the 1st of January which would last
for 3 months then doing a small series of 5k's and 10k's within the
first 6 months of the year to see where I'm at and then doing a half or
full marathon in the later part of the year to see how my 5 and 10k
times are translating over to my marathon times. Usually this is a good
way to see how aerobically fit you are vs. how aerobically fit you think
you are.
Last night I went out on the trails and using the MAF 180 formula which
is 180 minus your age, mine is 154, I strapped that piece of crap heart
rate monitor on and kept my heart rate below 154 for about an hour and
15 minutes, I felt really good afterward, I felt like it was a very
effective workout, the kind of workout where when your done you kind of
smile to yourself and you're like... all hell yeah!
Along the way I found some kinks in my form which slow running tends to
expose a little more so it was effective in the learning sense as well.
I think for the rest of the year I'm going to aim to stay below that
heart rate for my daily sessions to top of my aerobic tank.
Tomorrow or Sunday I'll be doing a 26-27 mile training run with my wife
and I'm going to keep it below 154 the duration and see how that feels
in the following days to decide for sure if I want to finish out the
year with that type of conditioning. Ideally from what I've read so far
you'd want to stick to low heart rate training for a bit longer but I've
been base building for a year and 9 months now and it's time to put the
icing on the cake.
The good news is that I just found a soft strap heart rate monitor, so
I'm hoping that will stick to my rib cage much better instead of choking
me to death. :-)
EDWARD EDMONDS
Anyway so I've been thinking about what Lydiard had to say about base
building and comparing to them to Aaken, what sticks out the most in my
mind is that while Lydiard wasn't a fan of LSD's, his guys while they
were doing 100 miles a week at their best aerobic efforts were also in
addition to that doing a lot of supplementary miles, and I'd guess they
were at alot lower heart rates. Clearly there is something to training
at lower heart rates of some significance whether you call them recovery
miles or whatever there is definitely a training effect.
I have some ideas as to why this is, but I'll need to read Aaken's book
before I could say for sure, but basically I like to think of the heart
as a engine, once you get the engine up to full speed, say on a flat
road with no resistance you could probably stop a few of the cylinders
and it would be able to maintain the speed, but if you went up a hill
that would require some torque which 1 or 2 cylinders would have a hard
time providing in other words you'd have to cross into the anaerobic
zone the "red line" and risk over heating the engine just to make it
over the hill with out slowing. I think what training at lower heart
rates does is provide the extra cylinders to not only cruise at high
speeds aerobically but to also provide that torque to get over hills
fairly aerobically instead of relying completely on the other energy
systems which are less efficient then the aerobic system when things get
though.
So whether Lydiard knew of the true benefits of those "supplementary"
miles or as some like to call them "junk miles" we'll probably never
know, but he did say in his book that adding supplementary miles will
give you even better results. So clearly he knew there was some benefit
to them.
pithydoug
> On 11/6/2009 4:42 PM, EDWARD EDMONDS wrote:
>
>
>
> > I would interested in what would the results would be if instead of
> > Lydiard's aerobic base building you did Aaken's and then topped off the
> > cake with ALL of Lydiards final phases,
Why not mix in Daniels, Glover, Pfitzinger, etc and set up a monstrous
menu. One from column A two from column B. If your looking into
Lydiard you may wnat to take a look at Keith Livingstone's 'Healthy
Intelligent Training." Lydiard was hazy in some of his written stuff
so this book was written to clear up the haze. I have the book but
have yet to get passed page 40. So little time to read.
In general I like the direction you are taking in that a collage may
be your answer. Nothing says that "your" answer can't be a mixture.
I remember 20 some years ago doing something similar for marathons. I
ended up with blend of 3-4 different programs. While there are
similarities with all of them, there are enough differences to provide
choice bur sometimes with choice comes confusion.
Good luck with your titling Mr. Quixote! ;)
Squire - Sancho Panza
Charlie Pendejo
> (I have a tendency to think that out of all
> Lydiard's phases the hill resistance phase is the most crucial.)
Really, the most crucial?
I'm curious. Would you describe what you do for this phase - and
also, what it does for you?
Couple years ago, I'd planned to try a more-or-less full Lydiard
cycle, and ended up with plantar fasciitis after straining my soleus,
which was mostly a consequence of too abrupt a transition to charging
or bounding up my relatively (for Brooklyn, NY) steep little hill.
Incidentally, I think overbuilt shoes (though billed as "lightweight")
contributed to the problem, and happily these days I'm in more minimal
shoes Lydiard and Pirie (thanks for his piece - I'd read it some years
ago and enjoyed becoming reacquainted... his temperament [and
prodigious amount of training] reminded me a little of Gerry Lindgren
this time) would approve of. Though calves and PF got some warning
twinges a few weeks ago after trying to incorporate a steeper hill
segment into my regular morning route. Guess I should do better calf
stretching or try to strengthen them (possibly by running steep hills,
but with an extremely cautious buildup). Any recommendations?
> but I've been base building for a year and 9 months now and it's
> time to put the icing on the cake.
I should think so - that sounds Viren-esque. Why the two years of
base? Any racing at all during that span? How do you judge progress,
and have you continued to see progress after 12, 15, 18 months?
D Stumpus
"Charlie Pendejo" <charlie...@gmail.com> wrote
... Though calves and PF got some warning
>twinges a few weeks ago after trying to incorporate a steeper hill
>segment into my regular morning route. Guess I should do better calf
>stretching or try to strengthen them (possibly by running steep hills,
>but with an extremely cautious buildup). Any recommendations?
Stretching is what ended my Achilles problems forever (or for the last 6
years or so)
I find the standing-backward-on-the-stairtread and
letting-the-heel-sink-down method works best. The zero-tolerance rule is in
effect for Achilles issues: any pain or tightness at all, stop and do
something else: walk, cycle, jog on flat, whatever.
Got me from sore and brittle to able to withstand 10,000' of climbing a week
without a peep.
Also, imo, springing up hills is just asking for trouble. Even when I was
25 years younger I gave up on that in a hurry, but I found Lydiard's hill
cycle workout excellent for XC races.
As I recall it goes something like this:
2.5 minutes hard up a hill (no springing though),
1-2 minute recovery
2 minutes screaming downhill on dirt or grass.
1-2 minute recovery
4 x 200m on the flat.
Do three times. 2-3 miles easy warmup first. I ran high 34:5x on a 750'
climb hill 10K race after doing that workout for a few weeks, and beat guys
on the Nike and Aggie teams. Ah, the rich mists of time ...
I2Run
|Though calves and PF got some warning
|twinges a few weeks ago after trying to incorporate a steeper hill
|segment into my regular morning route. Guess I should do better calf
|stretching or try to strengthen them (possibly by running steep hills,
|but with an extremely cautious buildup). Any recommendations?
I agree with Dan on this, hills are real killers of calves.
Though I live in the hills and train in the hills, I have to be careful
how fast I go with my limited leg strength. Though I PRed & BQed in
the marathon, I am still recovering from a hard 12 mile hill workout
7 or 8 weeks back. I can only imagine how much better off I would have
been without that workout. I can't do anything wrong no matter how fast
I go on flats or moderate hills, but steep climbs & going hard don't
workout for me, I have to take it easy on the climbs.
pithydoug
> "Charlie Pendejo" <charlie.pend...@gmail.com> wrote
> Stretching is what ended my Achilles problems forever (or for the last 6
> years or so)
> I find the standing-backward-on-the-stairtread and
> letting-the-heel-sink-down method works best.
If you check with just about any PT. MT, or Orthopedic medico
connected to this area, the stair stretch for Achilles, etc is too
severe. A simple wall stretch(s) will achieve the same thing and
remove the chances of over-stretching the achilles, soleus or
gastroc. I'm sure you are careful and have some years of personal
experience but it is still riskier than it needs to be.
Anecdotal. A recent running acquaintance came to me for some running
help. A fellow 60 yo with too much macho and not enough common sense.
The old hurry up to run fast syndrom. He recently retired but had been
running on and off for many years albeit with less vigor. After we
finished a run he stood on a curb doing the heel stretch. I suggested
and even showed him a few other stretches that would do the same with
less stress He ignored the suggestion and said he had been doing it
for years. He is now in cam boot and will be for many weeks. He had
finished a run and felt tight in the achilles area and decided to give
it an extra stretch. After all, if a little good, more is better.
As a small sidebar, it is usually the calf muscles that have the
initial problem which pull up on the Achilles making the Achilles
appear to be the problem.
I know anecdotal but PT's and MT's will tell you how many people come
to them for this specific problem. Ozzie Gontag ( the creator of r.r I
think) posted a great synopsis piece on achilles in general. See
http://www.mindfulness.com/2009/01/27/problem-is-the-calves-not-the-achilles-tendon/
for specifics. The site in general http://www.mindfulness.com/category/mindful-running/
has some excellent articles worth a read.
-D
Charlie Pendejo
>> Stretching is what ended my Achilles problems forever (or for the last 6
>> years or so)
>> I find the standing-backward-on-the-stairtread and
>> letting-the-heel-sink-down method works best.
Yeah, I *always* stretch post-run, but in 2009 I haven't had a set of
stairs quite as handy as prior years so I've been doing lean-against-
wall, for both gastroc (straight knee) & soleus (bent knee). In the
past I've mixed it up. Good thought, thanks.
Doug:
> If you check with just about any PT. MT, or Orthopedic medico
> connected to this area, the stair stretch for Achilles, etc is too
> severe. A simple wall stretch(s) will achieve the same thing and
> remove the chances of over-stretching the achilles, soleus or
> gastroc. I'm sure you are careful and have some years of personal
> experience but it is still riskier than it needs to be.
Ugh, thanks for that too, something to be aware of.
I *think* I'm a very cautious stretcher and unlikely to push too hard
in any stretch, but I'll keep your warning in mind, maybe ask around
or google for more.
> Ozzie Gontag ( the creator of r.r I
> think) posted a great synopsis piece on achilles in general. See
> http://www.mindfulness.com/2009/01/27/problem-is-the-calves-not-the-a...
Ah, Ozzy's advice always seems good. Though my problem is never the
Achilles (my half-joking sense is that only runners with some power
are strong enough to damage their Achilles, so I'm safe), my calves
are always, always, always tight (even during periods of not running)
and the take-home point here - massage - is worth keeping in mind.
pithydoug
> Dan:
>
> > Ozzie Gontag ( the creator of r.r I
> > think) posted a great synopsis piece on achilles in general. See
> >http://www.mindfulness.com/2009/01/27/problem-is-the-calves-not-the-a...
>
> Ah, Ozzy's advice always seems good. Though my problem is never the
> Achilles (my half-joking sense is that only runners with some power
> are strong enough to damage their Achilles, so I'm safe), my calves
> are always, always, always tight (even during periods of not running)
> and the take-home point here - massage - is worth keeping in mind.
Amen on the massage!!!
I think I've rambled on for years about massage and not just when you
have a problem but preventive so I'm a big fan. I know some people
attempt self massage rather then using a $$professional$$. If one is
consistently doing self massage as an extension of stretching such
that strains are alleviated before they get worse, then great. Give
youself an A+
Those that develop a nagging problem and then attempt self-massage had
best be very knowledgeable. After my last race my calf muscles were
severely tight from 8 hours of running in mud. I tried some self
massage until I could get in for an appointment which did almost
nothing. Within two minutes on the table my MT had found the
beginning and end of the tight areas. I was off by a long way. Self-
massage is a little like self-medicating and self-analysis(mental and
physical)........
My point when one works on themselves thinking it is helping and
attempts to run through the discomfort, is when the usually strong
achilles gets bitch slapped. Yes, stretch, self massage but if it does
not offer relief, get to PT or MT. Even PTs and MTs go to others in
the trade for their problems and nor just the areas they can't reach.
-D
D Stumpus
"pithydoug" <dfr...@hvc.rr.com> wrote
> Stretching is what ended my Achilles problems forever (or for the last 6
> years or so)
> I find the standing-backward-on-the-stairtread and
> letting-the-heel-sink-down method works best.
> Anecdotal. A recent running acquaintance came to me for some running
help. A fellow 60 yo with too much macho and not enough common sense.
The old hurry up to run fast syndrom. He recently retired but had been
running on and off for many years albeit with less vigor. After we
finished a run he stood on a curb doing the heel stretch. I suggested
and even showed him a few other stretches that would do the same with
less stress He ignored the suggestion and said he had been doing it
for years. He is now in cam boot and will be for many weeks. He had
finished a run and felt tight in the achilles area and decided to give
it an extra stretch. After all, if a little good, more is better.
Well, we're all different, I guess. I know I don't push it, just to the
point that it starts feeling good.
I forgot to note a couple of things:
a) that I start with a knee-bent Achilles stretch, so that's the "warm up"
for the bigger one. Doing just the regular stretch didn't solve my problem.
b) I also don't stretch immediately after a run, I wait at least 12 hours.
I don't know if that's good or bad, but it works for me.
> As a small sidebar, it is usually the calf muscles that have the
initial problem which pull up on the Achilles making the Achilles
appear to be the problem.
That is the major point, and reading that years ago in the ultra group is
what made me experiment and discover what worked for me.
Finally, going all out on uphill has caused me more than a couple of times
to injure a hamstring or Achilles, so I go hard, but not too hard on uphills
in training, and I stop immediately at the first hint of a twinge.
EDWARD EDMONDS
Don't be a smart ass Sancho :-)
EDWARD EDMONDS
Oh, Keith's book is fantastic I've gotten past page 40 twice, :-) and
use it quite often as a reference. I highly recommend finishing it.
EDWARD EDMONDS
> Ed Ed:
>> (I have a tendency to think that out of all
>> Lydiard's phases the hill resistance phase is the most crucial.)
>
> Really, the most crucial?
Absolutely.
> I'm curious. Would you describe what you do for this phase - and
> also, what it does for you?
I haven't formally entered the hill resistence phase yet, I probably
won't enter that phase till either December the 1st or January 1st. (I'm
still looking for the races I want to peak for) However, you don't just
do a bunch of aerobic base building and then violently start hill
resistance training, you ease into it gradually. As of this point I'm
doing a few things to prepare myself, a) I'm adding steeper hills into
my runs b) I'm practicing the three classic Lydiard hill exercises:
http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/hilltrainingdvd.aspx
BUT, I'm doing them at a much lower intensity and only a few reps (less
than 50 meters) at a time making sure I stay aerobic, if you start
needing to breathe faster then you're doing them at too high of an
intensity. Also make sure to run a couple miles very easy first, easy
running is going to properly stretch everything out.
When I finally start the hill phase I will probably start with something
like this:
Every other day: 3 miles easy, then 30 minutes of: the 3 Lydiard hill
exercises each at 200 to 400m, easy jogging, fly down the downhill I
just ran up (don't fight the gravity), then probably 2 or 3, 10 second
easy/relaxed alactic sprints, then repeat circuit till 30 minutes is up,
followed by 3 mile easy run. Then easy daily 2nd session, no more than 2
sessions on hill days.
[Downhills; the biggest challenge with downhill running is learning to
run downhill, you can run really really fast downhill, the problem with
running fast downhill is that when you start going faster if you're not
used to that kind of speed you start to get a little "scared" and then
you start to try to fight it a little because you don't want to fall or
hurt yourself, BIG mistake, you'll injure yourself. Go only as fast as
the hill with let you, don't push faster but don't hold yourself back.
You want to go at the exact same speed the current is pulling you and
not much faster than that during training.]
On the opposite days, regular 2-3 session days, only all sessions will
be easy no pushing it all! With a weekly long run plus 2 "longer" than
hour runs somewhere in there.
Gradually I'll start making the hill sessions longer and adding more
hill days till I'm able to do 4-6 days in a row plus a long run. No
hill session should exceed 60 mins.
I can tell you from the transitional exercises I've sprinkled in so far
most definitely I've noticed a small % of speed increase on my aerobic
runs. Second thing I've noticed is a small % increase in stamina. I do
only as much I as need to to prepare for the next phase, downhill
running is really going to bring your speed back so while you want to do
it to prepare for the hill stage a bit, if your speed starts coming back
too quickly you'll likely miss your planned peak. I've also noticed
slightly faster recovery.
> Couple years ago, I'd planned to try a more-or-less full Lydiard
> cycle, and ended up with plantar fasciitis after straining my soleus,
> which was mostly a consequence of too abrupt a transition to charging
> or bounding up my relatively (for Brooklyn, NY) steep little hill.
When transitioning to the hill phase you'll want to add steeper hills to
the mix, but you want to run up them very slowly, let your legs feel the
resistance and focus on form until you feel comfortable then you can add
higher aerobic speed.
> Incidentally, I think overbuilt shoes (though billed as "lightweight")
> contributed to the problem, and happily these days I'm in more minimal
> shoes Lydiard and Pirie (thanks for his piece - I'd read it some years
> ago and enjoyed becoming reacquainted... his temperament [and
> prodigious amount of training] reminded me a little of Gerry Lindgren
> this time) would approve of. Though calves and PF got some warning
> twinges a few weeks ago after trying to incorporate a steeper hill
> segment into my regular morning route. Guess I should do better calf
> stretching or try to strengthen them (possibly by running steep hills,
> but with an extremely cautious buildup). Any recommendations?
Glad you switched to proper footwear. Seriously whatever your pace is
on flat road, drop it when you hit a steep hill and focus on syncopated
rhythm and form. Let the resistance do the workout for you. You're
always going to breathe a little harder on the uphill, but think about
what the purpose of the uphill is supposed to do and instead of charging
on the uphill, charge the downhill controlled but staying aerobic. If
you wear a heart rate monitor you'll notice your heart rate drop on the
downhill; try to keep your heart rate as high as it was on the flat
portions.
>> but I've been base building for a year and 9 months now and it's
>> time to put the icing on the cake.
>
> I should think so - that sounds Viren-esque. Why the two years of
> base? Any racing at all during that span? How do you judge progress,
> and have you continued to see progress after 12, 15, 18 months?
I judge my progress by how much distance I cover at a specific effort as
well as the ease of the effort. If I cover more and more distance at
that same effort and the ease with which I do that becomes easier, then
I'm improving. I've continually improved since I started and I feel
I've managed to do this by staggered training, easy-hard-easy-hard, not
only on a day to day basis but on a week to week basis as well as a
session to session basis. I also alternate terrain, one week I'll do
completely roads, the next week I'll do completely trails. The roads
around here are relatively flat, the trails are hilly some with 3 mile
climbs that make sure if you're not aerobic when you're going up, you
sure as hell are going to be aerobic for the rest of the run. So one
week, trails going up and down hills, the next week flat roads which
will allow you to fully recover to start over. (On the flip-side I'm
also only about 2 years into a very long term process, so results are
going to be significant for a while.)
With the Achilles/calf/plantar fasciitis problems: I've never stretched
really before a workout, I normally warm up for 2-3 miles. [Most East
African elite's will warm-up for at least 30 minutes and I've heard of
some who warm-up longer before a race, on training runs though they
pretty much are stumbling over themselves for a while before they pick
up the pace, but basically they work into it, and let the speed come to
them if it's there] But I do stretch afterward quite extensively.
I'll put together a video clip of my routine, it's quite simple but
effective, because I did for a while have some Achilles/calf problems.
Hope that helps a bit,
Edward