Speed Suit vs. Regular Running Shorts & Singlets
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
C
tj jerry sharrie ashley
Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
And look...she won! They must work! (Like hard training and talent wasn't a
factor!)
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
Well, I'm not suggesting the speed suit made her win. I only found it
curious that she was the only one in the finals wearing a speed suit.
C
hoffman
> performance time that much or if at all. Or is it more
> psychological? In the 400m race finals for women,
> the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
Yes, those implements really do work to reduce
air drug. However, as far as running goes the
reduction in drag is so minimal as to be considered
negligible. Although, lest not forget that in a
100m race; time spans of thousandths of a
second (which in turn rounds to hundredths)
are a factor because it can be the difference
between a world record.. and.. not. All in all,
it's basically hype and I'm sure that these
athletes are well paid by their sponsors to
wear these goofy gadgets.. Plus there is
the fashion aspect of looking different.
The idea really is not absurd. In swimming, the
issue is taken very seriously, because the increase
in drag caused by water, being much greater than
air, makes special ribbed swiming suits a real
concern so much so that they've tried on and off
to ban ceartain kinds of wetsuits.
Ditto with cycling.. Cyclists very often shave the
hair from their head, and off their legs as they've
been doing for decades. Although the leg shaving
has more to do with aesthetics, some cyclists
realize it does infentessimally reduce drag. Shaving
head hair does actually make a measurable difference.
Sam
search for articles by Chet Kyle (among others). Chet has published several
papers showing that clothing can reduce drag in speeds as slow as marathoner
run. The issue is not negligible and Chet has the wind tunnel testing to
prove it.
Also, shaving legs or having them covered does reduce drag. In cycling on
the track, events are timed to the 1/1000th of second. As for shaving the
head, wearing a helmet is a much better way to reduce drag.
"hoffman" <hof...@northeast.net> wrote in message
news:01c02be8$968cf0c0$d68e8bd1@enduser...
Terry Waggoner
>
> I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
> much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
> women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
Conal,
It was a fun race to watch wasn't it? And in the post race NBC interview it
seemed to me that her graciousness and humility shone brightly.
Now as far as the speed suit goes, I think it's similar to the elite marathoners
wearing nasal strips. The strips and the suits both enhance financial performance
for those athletes with endorsement contracts.
-- Terry "I'm going to Disney World" Waggoner
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
wagg...@simplyweb.net wrote on 2000-10-01 5:58 pm:
>
> Conal,
>
> It was a fun race to watch wasn't it? And in the post race NBC interview it
> seemed to me that her graciousness and humility shone brightly.
>
> Now as far as the speed suit goes, I think it's similar to the elite
> marathoners
> wearing nasal strips. The strips and the suits both enhance financial
> performance
> for those athletes with endorsement contracts.
>
> -- Terry "I'm going to Disney World" Waggoner
Yes it sure was. Freeman is the epitome of a combination of graceful
aggressive competitiveness.
Marla Runyan that I have noticed in this Olympics who wear the breath-right
strips.
Someone else was mentioning that speed suits would work for marathoners
too--that the speed gained is not negligible. The issue, it seems, with
speed suits is that for long distances, it doesn't help in letting body heat
evaporate quickly. Body heat is a factor for middle/long distance races.
C
Andrew Heiz
tj jerry sharrie ashley wrote:
> Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
>
> > I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
> > much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
> > women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
> >
> > C
>
> And look...she won! They must work! (Like hard training and talent wasn't a
> factor!)
Well if talent and hard training aren't factors where are my gold medals?
Andy
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
con...@cats.ucsc.edu wrote on 2000-10-01 6:41 pm:
> Marla Runyan that I have noticed in this Olympics who wear the breath-right
> strips.
Wow! The keyboard must have left out some words in this sentence!
I meant to write:
Marla Runyan is the only Olympian that I have noticed who wore the
breath-right strips in these games.
C
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
shhhh_...@hotmail.com wrote on 2000-10-01 8:21 pm:
> I obviously don't own a 'speed suit' (I'll consider one
> when my 5km PR falls below 13:00 ...hehee... as if :-)
> *but*, I DO notice that when I wear my long tights, I can
> "feel" and "appreciate" my form and muscle/joint movements
> better.
>
> I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself properly... I guess they
> make me feel more "sleek" or whatever - and the point I'm
> trying to make is that I'm sure the feel I get is *sort of* similar
> to the speed suit idea. I think that overall, wearing a tight, but
> stretchy apparel when running/swimming etc. probably improves
> form as well as the aforementioned drag reduction.
>
> David (in Ontario)
I think I know what you mean. One of the arguments that has been made before
is that tight fitting suits/tights help decrease muscle fatigue which can
happen by the muslce jiggling around a lot. The skintight clothing lessens
the jiggling/vibration.
What I do feel a difference is when I wax my legs. I can feel the air wosh
by and it feels much cooler. Waxing the legs is good preparation for
massages. :)
C
SwStudio
news:B5FCDB60.4769%con...@cats.ucsc.edu...
> I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
> much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals
for
> women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
>
I obviously don't own a 'speed suit' (I'll consider one
when my 5km PR falls below 13:00 ...hehee... as if :-)
*but*, I DO notice that when I wear my long tights, I can
"feel" and "appreciate" my form and muscle/joint movements
better.
I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself properly... I guess they
make me feel more "sleek" or whatever - and the point I'm
trying to make is that I'm sure the feel I get is *sort of* similar
to the speed suit idea. I think that overall, wearing a tight, but
stretchy apparel when running/swimming etc. probably improves
form as well as the aforementioned drag reduction.
David (in Ontario)
--
--
:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
"Nunc scio quid sit amor."
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
Matthew Salleo
Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> I meant to write:
> Marla Runyan is the only Olympian that I have noticed who wore the
> breath-right strips in these games.
>
> C
There was at least 5-10 guys in the men's marathon yesterday wearing the nasal
strips :o)
Matt
Perth, Australia
The Todd
vibration (and there is quite a bit of it in the quadriceps/hamstring area).
This is basically wasted energy, so tight suits for running are more for
this purpose than giving you good form, though I can't argue that I feel
"sleeker" when I do wear one :).
Reducing drag, IMHO, is a non-issue.
-Todd
SwStudio <shhhh_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lbTB5.103979$i5.40...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
Sam
wind tunnel testing done by Chet Kyle shows that the materials and drag of
running uniforms can have an effect even at marathon pace. That does not
mean that a marathoner should run in a Cathy Freeman type suit unless it is
really cold!
"Conal Guan-Yow Ho" <con...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:B5FD35ED.47AF%con...@cats.ucsc.edu...
> in article 39D7DDB7...@simplyweb.net, Terry Waggoner at
> wagg...@simplyweb.net wrote on 2000-10-01 5:58 pm:
>
> >
> > Conal,
> >
> > It was a fun race to watch wasn't it? And in the post race NBC
interview it
> > seemed to me that her graciousness and humility shone brightly.
> >
> > Now as far as the speed suit goes, I think it's similar to the elite
> > marathoners
> > wearing nasal strips. The strips and the suits both enhance financial
> > performance
> > for those athletes with endorsement contracts.
> >
> > -- Terry "I'm going to Disney World" Waggoner
>
> Yes it sure was. Freeman is the epitome of a combination of graceful
> aggressive competitiveness.
>
> Marla Runyan that I have noticed in this Olympics who wear the
breath-right
> strips.
>
Sam
short leg shorts increased performance in part by improving venous return of
blood to the heart (researchers' idea).
Although I would not discount the psychological boost.
"SwStudio" <shhhh_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lbTB5.103979$i5.40...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
Sam
"The Todd" <sher...@nospamwam.umd.edu> wrote in message
news:ZfVB5.4103$4i5.2...@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net...
> Actually, the speed suit compresses the muscle groups, reducing muscular
> vibration (and there is quite a bit of it in the quadriceps/hamstring
area).
> This is basically wasted energy, so tight suits for running are more for
> this purpose than giving you good form, though I can't argue that I feel
> "sleeker" when I do wear one :).
>
> Reducing drag, IMHO, is a non-issue.
>
Tell that to Chet Kyle and his wind tunnel testing.....you can read
the paper yourself. I will see if I can dig up the reference.
Robert Grumbine
Sam <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> Reducing drag, IMHO, is a non-issue.
>
> Tell that to Chet Kyle and his wind tunnel testing.....you can read
>the paper yourself. I will see if I can dig up the reference.
I'd appreciate that too. Particular questions are:
How much (percentage) of aerodynamic loss does it cut
How much - wattage -- aerodynamic loss is cut
How large are aerodynamic losses compared to other energy sinks
Does the improved aerodynamics translate to improved times
My rough and ready estimate of the aerodynamic losses is about
125 W at marathon pace, vs. ca. (at a guess from other points)
of about 1000 W total output. If both hold, then the total
wind losses are about 1/8th. A 10% improvement from different
materials would be on the order of 10 W, or 1% of total output.
If the energy requirement translated linearly to time improvement,
then a bit over a minute on the marathon. As most of the energy
is going to overcoming other sources of resistance, rather than
running faster, probably less than that would be achievable in
terms of time. Rough estimates, ready to be pitched once
there's some good experimental evidence to say what really happens.
If he's in my area, I'll happily volunteer for some performance
tests. :-)
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
marat...@mindspring.com wrote on 2000-10-01 11:33 pm:
> Penn State had a study a while back that showed that wearing lycra bike
> short leg shorts increased performance in part by improving venous return of
> blood to the heart (researchers' idea).
>
> Although I would not discount the psychological boost.
As for psychological boost, I prefer short shorts (1/2 split style). The
lycra stuff doesn't give me the psychological boost. :) I don't know why.
Maybe because the shorts make me think I have longer legs. :)
C
Phil. G. Felton
<marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Anyone interesting in the science of this should do a Medline or SportDiscus
> search for articles by Chet Kyle (among others). Chet has published several
> papers showing that clothing can reduce drag in speeds as slow as marathoner
> run. The issue is not negligible and Chet has the wind tunnel testing to
> prove it.
>
> Also, shaving legs or having them covered does reduce drag. In cycling on
> the track, events are timed to the 1/1000th of second. As for shaving the
> head, wearing a helmet is a much better way to reduce drag.
>
No it isn't as the drag of a helmeted head is greater than a bare head. However
if you have to wear a helmet for safety then you shoud wear the one which has
the least drag. For a 100m sprinter going 'clean' or wearing a cap a la
Flo-Jo or Freeman is worth a couple of hundredths. Note that the weather was
fairly cold and wet when the women's 400 was on in Sydney and the long Spandex
pants are certainly beneficial under those circumstances, they certainly help
to keep the muscles warm, didn't Michael also wear the long pants?
Phil.
>
>
>
> "hoffman" <hof...@northeast.net> wrote in message
> news:01c02be8$968cf0c0$d68e8bd1@enduser...
> > > I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease
> > > performance time that much or if at all. Or is it more
> > > psychological? In the 400m race finals for women,
> > > the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
Phil. G. Felton
Grumbine) wrote:
> In article <8r9aft$2ud$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,
> Sam <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Reducing drag, IMHO, is a non-issue.
> >
> > Tell that to Chet Kyle and his wind tunnel testing.....you can read
> >the paper yourself. I will see if I can dig up the reference.
>
> I'd appreciate that too. Particular questions are:
>
> How much (percentage) of aerodynamic loss does it cut
> How much - wattage -- aerodynamic loss is cut
> How large are aerodynamic losses compared to other energy sinks
> Does the improved aerodynamics translate to improved times
>
> My rough and ready estimate of the aerodynamic losses is about
> 125 W at marathon pace, vs. ca. (at a guess from other points)
> of about 1000 W total output. If both hold, then the total
> wind losses are about 1/8th. A 10% improvement from different
> materials would be on the order of 10 W, or 1% of total output.
> If the energy requirement translated linearly to time improvement,
> then a bit over a minute on the marathon. As most of the energy
> is going to overcoming other sources of resistance, rather than
> running faster, probably less than that would be achievable in
> terms of time. Rough estimates, ready to be pitched once
> there's some good experimental evidence to say what really happens.
>
> If he's in my area, I'll happily volunteer for some performance
> tests. :-)
>
Noakes' book discusses this. Basically drag goes up with the square of the
speed
so it's 4 times more significant for a sprinter at 24 mph and a marathoner at
12 mph in still air. A head wind or tail wind can make a big difference, for
the marathoner going into a 12 mph headwind his aero drag quadruples.
Phil.
Robert Grumbine
Phil. G. Felton <fel...@princeton.edu> wrote:
>
>Noakes' book discusses this. Basically drag goes up with the square of the
>speed
>so it's 4 times more significant for a sprinter at 24 mph and a marathoner at
>12 mph in still air. A head wind or tail wind can make a big difference, for
>the marathoner going into a 12 mph headwind his aero drag quadruples.
Yes, that was part of my figuring. The power requirement goes up as the
_cube_ of the speed (drag force going up as a square times the speed
itself to tell you how fast you're doing work overcoming that force).
So the sprinter is doing 8 times the work of the marathoner in overcoming
the aerodynamic drag. For my rough figure of 125 W for the marathoner, this
puts the sprinter at 1000 W for wind resistance, and in the ballpark of
having wind be one of the major if not the major energy sink.
JOHNOSHAUN
>hair from their head, and off their legs as they've
>been doing for decades. Although the leg shaving
>has more to do with aesthetics, some cyclists
>realize it does infentessimally reduce drag. Shaving
>head hair does actually make a measurable difference.
>
speed) on shaved legs
>
>
>
axiom
arms in slippery fabric might help as the legs and arms move at least
twice as fast as the forward speed of the center of mass.
On the other hand, clothing retards heat rejection and the runner's body
would expend more energy on rejecting heat. In the end the beneficial
effect would be nil or negative depending on ambient temperature.
Pete
Robert Grumbine wrote:
>
> In article <8r9aft$2ud$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,
> Sam <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Reducing drag, IMHO, is a non-issue.
> >
> > Tell that to Chet Kyle and his wind tunnel testing.....you can read
> >the paper yourself. I will see if I can dig up the reference.
>
> I'd appreciate that too. Particular questions are:
>
> How much (percentage) of aerodynamic loss does it cut
> How much - wattage -- aerodynamic loss is cut
> How large are aerodynamic losses compared to other energy sinks
> Does the improved aerodynamics translate to improved times
>
> My rough and ready estimate of the aerodynamic losses is about
> 125 W at marathon pace, vs. ca. (at a guess from other points)
> of about 1000 W total output. If both hold, then the total
> wind losses are about 1/8th. A 10% improvement from different
> materials would be on the order of 10 W, or 1% of total output.
> If the energy requirement translated linearly to time improvement,
> then a bit over a minute on the marathon. As most of the energy
> is going to overcoming other sources of resistance, rather than
> running faster, probably less than that would be achievable in
> terms of time. Rough estimates, ready to be pitched once
> there's some good experimental evidence to say what really happens.
>
> If he's in my area, I'll happily volunteer for some performance
> tests. :-)
>
Daniel Pierre-Antoine
occasional triathletes, that would explain it)
I've been getting some massages and deep tissue work (for shin splints and
suchlike) and God! is it ever annoying with leg hair. I haven't shaven since I
stopped bike racing and was considering it for the purpose of running. I bounced
the idea off a friend and he was horrified and hurried away, saying that he
would let me come to a decision by myself. Mmmm... I guess it all depends on how
serious I am going to make this running thing and how much massage I'll be
getting (it's excellent for the soft tissues but rather expensive).
How common is it in long-distance running?
DPA
Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> in article lbTB5.103979$i5.40...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com, SwStudio at
> shhhh_...@hotmail.com wrote on 2000-10-01 8:21 pm:
>
> > I obviously don't own a 'speed suit' (I'll consider one
> > when my 5km PR falls below 13:00 ...hehee... as if :-)
> > *but*, I DO notice that when I wear my long tights, I can
> > "feel" and "appreciate" my form and muscle/joint movements
> > better.
> >
> > I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself properly... I guess they
> > make me feel more "sleek" or whatever - and the point I'm
> > trying to make is that I'm sure the feel I get is *sort of* similar
> > to the speed suit idea. I think that overall, wearing a tight, but
> > stretchy apparel when running/swimming etc. probably improves
> > form as well as the aforementioned drag reduction.
> >
> > David (in Ontario)
>
Daniel Pierre-Antoine
Povl H. Pedersen
Conal Guan-Yow Ho <con...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
>much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
>women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
I am a skydiver, so my experience is at a slightly higher speed (120 MPH).
But at that speed, when you order a suit, the pick the material depending on
the weight relative to the surface (we all want to fall at the same speed, so
we can do stuff together). So at those speeds, fabric alone can mean 10-15%
in speed.
But, if you jump in the nekkid, or just in shorts, you lose so much wind
resistance that turning becomes difficult/very slow. So it is my impression
from higher speeds, that the body is compareable or better than most
fabrics apart from plastic or fabrics with no weave pattern at all.
hoffman
----------------------
That of course is the other important theory.
Of course, almost nobody 'really' does it
for that reason. They shave their legs mainly
because shaved legs combined with strong muscles
are more aesthetically pleasing... same reason
bodybuilders shave most of their body hair off.
Povl H. Pedersen
Wrong. According to one of the danish former
Tour de France participants, who us known for his
shaved legs (among other things), they shave
their legs primary because it is easier because
of all the massage they get, and all the oil etc.
Now that he has stopped, he will probably let it
grow very long he said.
tj jerry sharrie ashley
Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> in article 39D7938C...@sympatico.ca, tj jerry sharrie ashley at
> t.j.b...@sympatico.ca wrote on 2000-10-01 12:43 pm:
>
> >
> >
> > Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> >
> >> I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
> >> much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
> >> women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
> >>
> >> C
> >
> > And look...she won! They must work! (Like hard training and talent wasn't a
> > factor!)
> >
>
> Well, I'm not suggesting the speed suit made her win. I only found it
> curious that she was the only one in the finals wearing a speed suit.
>
You mean it I didn't? You just saved me $300 that I was gonna plop down on one so
I could cut down on my couch-washroom-fridge-couch sprints times during
commercials!
JerryB
Mean people suck.
tj jerry sharrie ashley
Andrew Heiz wrote:
> tj jerry sharrie ashley wrote:
>
> > Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> >
> > > I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
> > > much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
> > > women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
> > >
> > > C
> >
> > And look...she won! They must work! (Like hard training and talent wasn't a
> > factor!)
>
> Well if talent and hard training aren't factors where are my gold medals?
Hang on, I think they're here under my couch cushions...
JerryB
Mean people suck.
tj jerry sharrie ashley
hoffman wrote:
> > >cyclists shave their legs because its easier to treat
> > >a wound (from falling at speed) on shaved legs..
> ----------------------
> That of course is the other important theory.
>
> Of course, almost nobody 'really' does it
> for that reason. They shave their legs mainly
> because shaved legs combined with strong muscles
> are more aesthetically pleasing... same reason
> bodybuilders shave most of their body hair off.
Here's a little test. Shave one leg, and leave one unshaven. Go to the
top of a big hill, and ride down as fast as possible. When you hit the
bottom at top speed, fall off, maybe roll a little and slide for
effect. See which leg cleans up better, is heals nicer and is less
painful when the scabbing comes...
JerryB
Mean people suck
Conal Guan-Yow Ho
Are you sure those are gold medals or are those actually just chocolate gold
coins? ;-)
C
Sam
knowledge there is not good way to assess power output in running (cycling
is different story).
"Robert Grumbine" <bo...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
news:8ra3eg$hle$1...@saltmine.radix.net...
> In article <8r9aft$2ud$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,
> Sam <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Reducing drag, IMHO, is a non-issue.
> >
> > Tell that to Chet Kyle and his wind tunnel testing.....you can
read
> >the paper yourself. I will see if I can dig up the reference.
>
Sam
However, one can develop materials for marathon clothing that would reduce
drag and allow for adequate cooling.
"axiom" <not...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:39D8AEC4...@webtv.net...
> My unscientific take on this would be that encasing the legs and the
> arms in slippery fabric might help as the legs and arms move at least
> twice as fast as the forward speed of the center of mass.
> On the other hand, clothing retards heat rejection and the runner's body
> would expend more energy on rejecting heat. In the end the beneficial
> effect would be nil or negative depending on ambient temperature.
>
> Pete
>
> Robert Grumbine wrote:
> >
> > In article <8r9aft$2ud$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > Sam <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Reducing drag, IMHO, is a non-issue.
> > >
> > > Tell that to Chet Kyle and his wind tunnel testing.....you can
read
> > >the paper yourself. I will see if I can dig up the reference.
> >
Sam
Outside of Pantani, I cannot think of one.
"Phil. G. Felton" <fel...@princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:felton-0210...@pgfelton97.princeton.edu...
> > > > I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease
> > > > performance time that much or if at all. Or is it more
> > > > psychological? In the 400m race finals for women,
> > > > the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
> > > ------------------
> > > Yes, those implements really do work to reduce
> > > air drug. However, as far as running goes the
> > > reduction in drag is so minimal as to be considered
> > > negligible. Although, lest not forget that in a
> > > 100m race; time spans of thousandths of a
> > > second (which in turn rounds to hundredths)
> > > are a factor because it can be the difference
> > > between a world record.. and.. not. All in all,
> > > it's basically hype and I'm sure that these
> > > athletes are well paid by their sponsors to
> > > wear these goofy gadgets.. Plus there is
> > > the fashion aspect of looking different.
> > >
> > > The idea really is not absurd. In swimming, the
> > > issue is taken very seriously, because the increase
> > > in drag caused by water, being much greater than
> > > air, makes special ribbed swiming suits a real
> > > concern so much so that they've tried on and off
> > > to ban ceartain kinds of wetsuits.
> > >
Sam
many age groupers get massages regularly, the beauty issue cannot be
ignored.
"hoffman" <hof...@northeast.net> wrote in message
news:01c02ca8$4c5f0f40$dc8e8bd1@enduser...
Sam
that supports any improvement for athletes. However, for snoring it might
have some benefits. A friend with whom I share a room at conferences uses
one and his snoring is reduced when he wears the strip (and avoids the
Jagermeister, but that is another story).
"Daniel Pierre-Antoine" <dpan...@ccs.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:39D8CB70...@ccs.carleton.ca...
> What exactly is that gizmo (sp?) supposed to do???
>
> Matthew Salleo wrote:
>
tj jerry sharrie ashley
Robert Grumbine wrote:
> In article <felton-0210...@pgfelton97.princeton.edu>,
> Phil. G. Felton <fel...@princeton.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Noakes' book discusses this. Basically drag goes up with the square of the
> >speed
> >so it's 4 times more significant for a sprinter at 24 mph and a marathoner at
> >12 mph in still air. A head wind or tail wind can make a big difference, for
> >the marathoner going into a 12 mph headwind his aero drag quadruples.
>
> Yes, that was part of my figuring. The power requirement goes up as the
> _cube_ of the speed (drag force going up as a square times the speed
> itself to tell you how fast you're doing work overcoming that force).
> So the sprinter is doing 8 times the work of the marathoner in overcoming
> the aerodynamic drag. For my rough figure of 125 W for the marathoner, this
> puts the sprinter at 1000 W for wind resistance, and in the ballpark of
> having wind be one of the major if not the major energy sink.
Just a thought, but would wearing a suit put one at a disadvantage
with tail winds, to those with regular clothes (say, shorts and singlet?), understanding
that the wind is faster than running speed?
JerryB
Mean people suck.
tj jerry sharrie ashley
Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> in article 39D91F52...@sympatico.ca, tj jerry sharrie ashley at
> t.j.b...@sympatico.ca wrote on 2000-10-02 4:51 pm:
>
> >
> >
> > Andrew Heiz wrote:
> >
> >> tj jerry sharrie ashley wrote:
> >>
> >>> Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
> >>>> much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
> >>>> women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
> >>>>
> >>>> C
> >>>
> >>> And look...she won! They must work! (Like hard training and talent wasn't a
> >>> factor!)
> >>
> >> Well if talent and hard training aren't factors where are my gold medals?
> >
> > Hang on, I think they're here under my couch cushions...
> >
> > JerryB
> > Mean people suck.
> >
>
> Are you sure those are gold medals or are those actually just chocolate gold
> coins? ;-)
That's why they're soft and squishy!
JerryB
Mean people suck.
Robert Grumbine
Sam <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I am not sure that using Watts for running is appropriate since to my
>knowledge there is not good way to assess power output in running (cycling
>is different story).
Watts are the unit of power in physics, so that's what you use if you
assess power output. Whether wattage is particularly relevant to running
speed, however, is a different question. I'm pretty sure that Abera
would be running faster for at a given power output than I (non-elite
with probable mechanical inefficiencies). But that same question of
relevance applies to the aerodynamic losses.
Any luck on the cite?
Mike Tennent
>BTW, how many cyclists shave their heads as closely as they do their legs?
>Outside of Pantani, I cannot think of one.
>
I was wondering about that, myself. I can't think of any off-hand.
Legs, yes. Heads, no.
Another related/unrelated rant: During the bike Time Trial, the
commentator <Ligget?> seemed to imply that Greg LeMond pioneered the
use of the aero bars - ignoring the fact that triathletes had been
using them for years. Le Mond was the first to use a true aerobar in
the TdF, but he borrowed the idea from tri's.
Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"
Ironman Canada '98 16:17:03
Great Floridian '99, 17:13:38
Doug Freese
Mike Tennent wrote:
>
> "Sam" <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >BTW, how many cyclists shave their heads as closely as they do their legs?
> >Outside of Pantani, I cannot think of one.
> >
>
> I was wondering about that, myself. I can't think of any off-hand.
>
> Legs, yes. Heads, no.
Isn't any aerodynamics compensated by the helmet? Will
putting a plastic bubble on top of a bald head help?
--
Caveat Lector!
Doug Freese dfr...@attglobal.net
Sam
over to pro cycling---friends in the cycling world told me that amateurs
were ahead of the curve (pros) in this regard.
"Mike Tennent" <wbru...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:8D691767BCDE49DE.6EBDB967...@lp.airnews.net...
> "Sam" <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >BTW, how many cyclists shave their heads as closely as they do their
legs?
> >Outside of Pantani, I cannot think of one.
> >
>
> I was wondering about that, myself. I can't think of any off-hand.
>
> Legs, yes. Heads, no.
>
Sam
I dug up one of the articles and am in the process of getting the tables
into an email. I will post when I get it done (a good excuse to play at
work).
If you want, search on Medline or SportDiscus for Chet Kyle and also
Bassett.
"Robert Grumbine" <bo...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
news:8rchrq$gkb$1...@saltmine.radix.net...
Phil. G. Felton
> Mike Tennent wrote:
> >
> > "Sam" <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > >BTW, how many cyclists shave their heads as closely as they do their legs?
> > >Outside of Pantani, I cannot think of one.
> > >
> >
> > I was wondering about that, myself. I can't think of any off-hand.
> >
> > Legs, yes. Heads, no.
>
> Isn't any aerodynamics compensated by the helmet? Will
> putting a plastic bubble on top of a bald head help?
>
Drag is dependent on the cross-sectional area times a drag coefficient times
velocity squared. So while shaving a head can reduce the drag coefficient and
slightly reduce the area, adding a helmet increases the area and that effect
predominates. This has been a popular experiment in my fluid dynamics classes
where the students tests different helmets on a dummy head in a wind tunnel,
they're usually surprised to fing that the bare head gives the lowest drag.
Phil.
BobMac
> > I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease
> > performance time that much or if at all. Or is it more
> > psychological? In the 400m race finals for women,
> > the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
> ------------------
> Yes, those implements really do work to reduce
> air drug. However, as far as running goes the
> reduction in drag is so minimal as to be considered
> negligible. Although, lest not forget that in a
> 100m race; time spans of thousandths of a
> second (which in turn rounds to hundredths)
> are a factor because it can be the difference
> between a world record.. and.. not. All in all,
> it's basically hype and I'm sure that these
> athletes are well paid by their sponsors to
> wear these goofy gadgets.. Plus there is
> the fashion aspect of looking different.
Yeah, what he said. For most of us, we can take a fraction
of a second off our training pace per mile or kilometre,
with a skin suit. Or, we can take hundreds of times that
much off by training better.
> The idea really is not absurd. In swimming, the
> issue is taken very seriously, because the increase
> in drag caused by water, being much greater than
> air,
By a factor of 800? 400? It's been a long time since I read
up on this. Even in swimming, where it's a much greater
effect, it maybe one second per minute.
> makes special ribbed swiming suits a real
> concern so much so that they've tried on and off
> to ban ceartain kinds of wetsuits.
>
> Ditto with cycling.. Cyclists very often shave the
> hair from their head, and off their legs as they've
> been doing for decades. Although the leg shaving
> has more to do with aesthetics, some cyclists
> realize it does infentessimally reduce drag. Shaving
> head hair does actually make a measurable difference.
Pete Pensyres (sp?) actually shaved his forearms for the
Race Across America. (bike race). He did, however, keep the
full beard.
BobMac
I just tell these stories, I don't explain them.
BobMac
> Anyone interesting in the science of this should do a Medline or SportDiscus
> search for articles by Chet Kyle (among others). Chet has published several
> papers showing that clothing can reduce drag in speeds as slow as marathoner
> run.
Reduce drag by How Much? And what does it translate to in terms of speed?
Without putting a number on the effect, we lower the discussion to the level of
newspaper articles.
BobMac
Robert Grumbine
No idea. I didn't say that the wattage was readily measured, just
that watts are the unit of interest. (I spend a lot of time in my
work in situations where the thing I care about isn't one of the
quantities I can measure.) One should have metabolic estimates of
total power output, and the aerodynamic figures for power required
should be relatively easy to get.
>If you want, search on Medline or SportDiscus for Chet Kyle and also
>Bassett.
How? (Web site? University access? ... )
Sam
difference. Rarely will this make a difference but I have seen a few
marathons won by mere seconds.
For 100m sprinters, the savings can be 0.01 sec (the difference between the
color of the medal or no medal).
In cycling the advantages are even greater. I will have to find the paper
when i get some things settled at work.
"BobMac" <rom...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39DB49E6...@home.com...
Sam
used it in a while.
SportDiscus is available at college libraries (although maybe not all of
them).
"Robert Grumbine" <bo...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
news:8rfis0$jhb$1...@saltmine.radix.net...
Steven Kirner
>
> I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
> much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
> women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
>
Anyone else find it odd that after going to all the
trouble and expense of a speed suit, the athletes then had
to pin their number on and let it flap around ?
jean sterling
> Anyone else find it odd that after going to all the
> trouble and expense of a speed suit, the athletes then had
> to pin their number on and let it flap around ?
That is a very good point!!
Sam
entire way needs a number other than the hip number for the photo finish.
Actually a better idea is to have the name of the person emblazoned on the
suit.
"jean sterling" <ste...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:39DC9918...@attglobal.net...
BarryW
"Sam" <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8reau8$e9k$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> How do you measure watts in a runner?
I guess you can estimate it easily - power is simply energy / time so if
someone runs a 4 minute mile burning approx. 100 calories (kCal) then:
100kCal = 420,000 joules.
4 mins = 240 secs.
420,000/240 = 1,750watts (approx)
Hmm, that sounds a lot - where have my calculations gone wrong? It's been 14
years since I studied physics...
> I dug up one of the articles and am in the process of getting the tables
> into an email. I will post when I get it done (a good excuse to play at
> work).
>
> If you want, search on Medline or SportDiscus for Chet Kyle and also
> Bassett.
>
>
> "Robert Grumbine" <bo...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
> news:8rchrq$gkb$1...@saltmine.radix.net...
> > In article <8rbkai$16c$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > Sam <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > >I am not sure that using Watts for running is appropriate since to my
> > >knowledge there is not good way to assess power output in running
> (cycling
> > >is different story).
> >
> > Watts are the unit of power in physics, so that's what you use if you
> > assess power output. Whether wattage is particularly relevant to
running
> > speed, however, is a different question. I'm pretty sure that Abera
> > would be running faster for at a given power output than I (non-elite
> > with probable mechanical inefficiencies). But that same question of
> > relevance applies to the aerodynamic losses.
> >
> > Any luck on the cite?
> >
BobMac
gain you 5.7 meters over 42,000 meters and change?
if so...
Hands up all here who have missed winning a serious marathon by less than 5.7
meters. Good, all of you report for your skin suits. The rest of us..... just
run more, sleep more, and don't worry about it.
BobMac
BobMac
> Conal Guan-Yow Ho wrote:
> >
> > I'm curious to know if speed suits really decrease performance time that
> > much or if at all. Or is it more psychological? In the 400m race finals for
> > women, the only woman wearing a speed suit was Cathy Freeman.
> >
> > C
>
> Anyone else find it odd that after going to all the
> trouble and expense of a speed suit, the athletes then had
> to pin their number on and let it flap around ?
Welll. Not odder than most things people do....
BobMac
Fred Klingener
"BarryW" <ro...@linux.com> wrote in message
news:8rrrpj$eae$1...@nereid.worldonline.nl...
>
> "Sam" <marat...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:8reau8$e9k$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> > How do you measure watts in a runner?
>
> I guess you can estimate it easily - power is simply energy / time so if
> someone runs a 4 minute mile burning approx. 100 calories (kCal) then:
>
> 100kCal = 420,000 joules.
> 4 mins = 240 secs.
> 420,000/240 = 1,750watts (approx)
>
> Hmm, that sounds a lot - where have my calculations gone wrong? It's been
14
> years since I studied physics...
Sounds about right for power *input*. 1,750 watts is about 2.3 horsepower.
IIRC from the data developed during development of the human-powered flight
craft, the peak power *output* for a cyclist is around 1 HP.
Fred
BarryW
"Fred Klingener" <klin...@BrockEng.com> wrote in message
news:v0kE5.34881$KI6.5...@typhoon.snet.net...
Plus I'd guess the elite runners are running a lot more efficiently than the
average person - if they can get by with 80kCal per mile that's down to
1,400 watts of power *input*.
P.G. Felton
According to Noakes a 50kg athlete (110 lbs) running at 20 km/hr (1 km in 3
mins)
expends a little over 1kW about 3/4 of which is heat rejection through sweat.
At about 67s/400m pace about 8% of a runner's energy is used to overcome
air resistance (no wind). Loosely fitting clothing has been shown to increase
drag
by 4% wearing a hooded bodysuit reduces drag and would give a benefit which
would
be about 1min 30s in a marathon.
Phil.