15 percent grade
conrad
tonight after running 6 miles and it is an amazing
feeling(I did it on a treadmill; the thing practically
transformed into a stairmaster. I also learned
the treadmill I run on has max 15% grade --
I figured they maxed at out 10% grade). I initially
had it at 8.7 mph and had to scale it back
to 7.5, then 6, then 5. But I definitely want to
give this a shot for 15 minutes as I saw it done
by anton krupicka. (Can see it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCS3SlAhX8U&feature=related)
and
http://www.trailrunnermag.com/news_detail.php?id=27
has results. Based on the results, it looks like
anton krupicka averaged a 6.24 mph pace for
15 minutes.
Anyway, this challenge looks very fun!
I'll give it a shot after this week.
--
conrad
Tony S.
news:d46c5294-785a-4bd6...@j1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
Not regularly, and haven't done it as a sort of stress test. My
treadmill only goes to 12%, but I use it for flat running. The toughest
single hill I've ever run (ran 90% of it) is Peekamoose in the
Catskills. Rough, rocky hiking trail straight up, the first part of
which is 2300' in 2.3 miles or almost 19%. But that section alone took
54 mins at training pace (HR 78%max), for a measly 2.5 mph. But them's
Catskills miles.
Other than that my best hill training effort to date is probably miles
10-12.5 (lap 3) of a 21 miler dirt road hill training run up at Doug's
place (overlook back in '07), where I foolishly went too hard. I did
27:22 for the 2.5 mile 1350' uphill (10%). That at HR 90%max. That
really opens up your lungs. I think Doug said some more talented bloke
got in the low 20s up there.
-Tony
D Stumpus
"conrad" <con...@lawyer.com> wrote
> Does anyone here run at 15% grade?
Yes, that's the opening mile of my typical daily run :-)
> I tried it out
> tonight after running 6 miles and it is an amazing
> feeling(I did it on a treadmill; the thing practically
> transformed into a stairmaster. I also learned
> the treadmill I run on has max 15% grade --
> I figured they maxed at out 10% grade). I initially
> had it at 8.7 mph and had to scale it back
> to 7.5, then 6, then 5.
12 minutes a mile is really good at a 15% grade. That kind of grade is
therepeutic if you have an impact type injury that prevents normal running
on the flat or downhill. I remember after one injury running up, and hiking
down one of my favorite and steep mountain routes.
> But I definitely want to
> give this a shot for 15 minutes as I saw it done
> by anton krupicka. (Can see it here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCS3SlAhX8U&feature=related)
> and
> http://www.trailrunnermag.com/news_detail.php?id=27
> has results. Based on the results, it looks like
> anton krupicka averaged a 6.24 mph pace for
> 15 minutes.
Let us know how it goes...
Dot
> Does anyone here run at 15% grade?
Most of my normal hills are 10-30%, but short. The mountain trails that
I may use are in 20-30% range and longer. Some I run, some I power hike.
I don't have an extended 15% slope to run on.
I tried it out
> tonight after running 6 miles and it is an amazing
> feeling(I did it on a treadmill; the thing practically
> transformed into a stairmaster. I also learned
> the treadmill I run on has max 15% grade --
> I figured they maxed at out 10% grade). I initially
> had it at 8.7 mph and had to scale it back
> to 7.5, then 6, then 5. But I definitely want to
> give this a shot for 15 minutes as I saw it done
> by anton krupicka. (Can see it here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCS3SlAhX8U&feature=related)
> and
> http://www.trailrunnermag.com/news_detail.php?id=27
> has results. Based on the results, it looks like
> anton krupicka averaged a 6.24 mph pace for
> 15 minutes.
Look at some of his race results. You might also look at Scott Jurek's
and Simon Gutierrez's (I think he's done this tm challenge) race results
or times on mountains.
>
> Anyway, this challenge looks very fun!
> I'll give it a shot after this week.
Let us know how it goes.
Dot
--
"Dream big and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughan
world-famous adventurer who was with Byrd in Antarctica and died Dec 23,
2005, at 100 yr + 4 days.
Doug Freese
"Tony S." <email...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Wqqkl.93$g31...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> "conrad" <con...@lawyer.com> wrote in message
> news:d46c5294-785a-4bd6...@j1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
>> Does anyone here run at 15% grade? I tried it out
>> tonight after running 6 miles and it is an amazing
>> feeling
Define amazing feeling? :) As Tony points out below in the summer I run
a 2.5 mile stretch that is 1,400 or 1,350(It's hard to be exact even
with topo maps and gizmos) which is 10+%. I have done it 8 times,
running 4 and hiking 4. My races entail both so I train for both.
There is another road, public then private that climbs the same mountain
which I hiked up last Sunday. That road has a 1/2 to 3/4 mile section
that is probably 15% and why it is private. I have run it in the past
but more to prove to myself that I could. It's a bit too steep to do run
continuously but it did remind me Sun that my hiking muscles for my
Mar/Apr races need some attention.
In the winter I/we run a 2.5 that is 1,100. It is the first part of a 9
mile loop. Some have yet to get to the top without stopping. The secret
is to take short steps and run slow. Too fast and you burn out breathing
too hard or your legs tell you enough, either will make you walk. And
don't think walking is a lot easier if you haven't done it before. We do
this power run ever other week. Last Sat was the 9 mile loop twice and
about 3 hours. I hiked Sun as a poor man's B2B.
Pushing long sustained ups has its benefits but must be done with care.
Let me also remind you that while the up is hard the down(not that you
can do that on a dredmil) is what usually debilitates the rookie. Add
this workout in to quickly and you will learn quickly about Delayed
Onset.
I do about 80% of my training on this mountain for my races. if nithing
else it gets me to the finish line under the cutoffs.
We did peekamouse a few yeras back for our VT50 hiking training run. I
had forgot how much fun it was. ;)
> Other than that my best hill training effort to date is probably miles
> 10-12.5 (lap 3) of a 21 miler dirt road hill training run up at Doug's
> place (overlook back in '07), where I foolishly went too hard. I did
> 27:22 for the 2.5 mile 1350' uphill (10%). That at HR 90%max. That
> really opens up your lungs. I think Doug said some more talented bloke
> got in the low 20s up there.
Tis Jean's husband Stewart who holds the record on the Overlook Overload
which is 8 laps in the 6 hour time limit. That was 15 years ago but he
climb that hill fast and frequent. The fastest I ever did was 29:nn and
awarded myself the Asshole prize for such stupidity. :) 32-35 is just
fine.
-Doug
jobs
Looks like you had fun. However, be careful about not over-doing it.
Hills can feel easy when you're running them, but sometimes they have a
tendency to come back and bite you in the achilles. Sometimes in the
plantar fascia. Make sure these are sufficiently warmed up before you go
blasting up. Also, back off at the first sign of any untoward pain.
A friend of mine used to run hills all the time. Then, at some point, he
decided to keep running even though he started having some minor pains.
This later turned out to be plantar fasciitis and he struggled for
months (literally) trying to get back to pain-free running.
Good luck.
jobs
rick++
rms
> Simon Gutierrez's (I think he's done this tm challenge) race results or
> times on mountains.
I just reviewed last year's Trailrunner article on Gutierrez. He says:
"I don't feel the need to do a lot of hill work every day. In fact I think
it gets people tired," Gutierrez says. "Once a week, maybe twice, that
works for me."
But he does two-a-days every day of the week in flat Alamosa, totalling
110miles/week....
rms
Dot
those tm challenges a year or so ago and placed highly. OTOH, doing
fewer hills might have left him fresher for the challenge.;)
Dot
> Does anyone here run at 15% grade? I tried it out
> tonight after running 6 miles and it is an amazing
> feeling(I did it on a treadmill; the thing practically
> transformed into a stairmaster. I also learned
> the treadmill I run on has max 15% grade --
> I figured they maxed at out 10% grade). I initially
> had it at 8.7 mph and had to scale it back
> to 7.5, then 6, then 5. But I definitely want to
> give this a shot for 15 minutes as I saw it done
> by anton krupicka. (Can see it here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCS3SlAhX8U&feature=related)
> and
> http://www.trailrunnermag.com/news_detail.php?id=27
> has results. Based on the results, it looks like
> anton krupicka averaged a 6.24 mph pace for
> 15 minutes.
But note that Dave Mackey won with 1.58 mi. That was only the 2007
challenge.
Dot
> rms wrote:
>
>>> Look at some of his race results. You might also look at Scott
>>> Jurek's and Simon Gutierrez's (I think he's done this tm challenge)
>>> race results or times on mountains.
>>
>>
>>
>> I just reviewed last year's Trailrunner article on Gutierrez. He
>> says:
>> "I don't feel the need to do a lot of hill work every day. In fact I
>> think it gets people tired," Gutierrez says. "Once a week, maybe
>> twice, that works for me."
>>
>> But he does two-a-days every day of the week in flat Alamosa,
>> totalling 110miles/week....
>>
>> rms
>>
> Maybe I confused him with someone else, but I thought he did one of
> those tm challenges a year or so ago and placed highly. OTOH, doing
> fewer hills might have left him fresher for the challenge.;)
>
> Dot
>
What I was thinking originally was to look at his race times (real ones,
not tm). Shows you don't need to do a lot of hills, depending upon one's
total training. I just pulled some names out of the air that I was
pretty sure Conrad could find some single hill times for.
Simon places among the highest US men in international mountain running
competitions and is doing well in masters competitions.
Yes, he did do one of the tm challenges, but I can't find the results.
conrad
wrote:
> conrad wrote:
> > Does anyone here run at 15% grade? I tried it out
> > tonight after running 6 miles and it is an amazing
> > feeling(I did it on a treadmill; the thing practically
> > transformed into a stairmaster. I also learned
> > the treadmill I run on has max 15% grade --
> > I figured they maxed at out 10% grade). I initially
> > had it at 8.7 mph and had to scale it back
> > to 7.5, then 6, then 5. But I definitely want to
> > give this a shot for 15 minutes as I saw it done
> > by anton krupicka. (Can see it here:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCS3SlAhX8U&feature=related)
> > and
> >http://www.trailrunnermag.com/news_detail.php?id=27
> > has results. Based on the results, it looks like
> > anton krupicka averaged a 6.24 mph pace for
> > 15 minutes.
>
> > Anyway, this challenge looks very fun!
> > I'll give it a shot after this week.
>
> Looks like you had fun. However, be careful about not over-doing it.
> Hills can feel easy when you're running them, but sometimes they have a
> tendency to come back and bite you in the achilles. Sometimes in the
> plantar fascia. Make sure these are sufficiently warmed up before you go
> blasting up. Also, back off at the first sign of any untoward pain.
>
Holy cow you are not kidding! For those here that do plenty
of steep hill work, you must have Achilles of steel! I started
it at 5mph with 15% grade but then opted to play it
safe and attempted 10% grade at 5mph. It felt easy
except that at minute 7 I had slight pain in my
left Achilles and decided to stop there and continued
to run at 2% grade at 8mph.
The previous day I did 9.75 miles with lots of hills.
Maybe it was the result of that or maybe I need to
incorporate more hill runs until my body adapts
to the stressors of steep inclines. Much respect to
you guys that do steep incline for long duration.
One of the first things that popped in my head
after my run was:
"If Achilles had done steep hill work, then
he would have probably been invincible."
But on a serious note, I will tackle that
15 minute 15% grade challenge eventually!
--
conrad
Dot
Start gentle.
Start slow.
Start short.
Build over time (years for us older runners).
Did you look up the training background and experience of some of the
people who did that challenge? I posted some names earlier besides the
one you referenced.
> I started
> it at 5mph with 15% grade but then opted to play it
> safe and attempted 10% grade at 5mph.
Start slower or gentler.
It felt easy
> except that at minute 7 I had slight pain in my
> left Achilles and decided to stop there and continued
> to run at 2% grade at 8mph.
When doing hills, run by effort - esp. if new to hills. Mixing speed and
incline for someone new to hills is not usually a recipe for success.
TM hills aren't quite the same as real hills.
>
> The previous day I did 9.75 miles with lots of hills.
> Maybe it was the result of that or maybe I need to
> incorporate more hill runs until my body adapts
> to the stressors of steep inclines.
Stress / recover. Did you allow for recovery after the 9.75 mi?
> Much respect to
> you guys that do steep incline for long duration.
>
> One of the first things that popped in my head
> after my run was:
> "If Achilles had done steep hill work, then
> he would have probably been invincible."
> But on a serious note, I will tackle that
> 15 minute 15% grade challenge eventually!
FWIW, I used to (knock on wood) have a bunch of achilles issues about 6+
yr ago - to the point where my GP suggested I give up running. My PT,
being more knowledgeable about lower leg mechanics, recognized the cause
(part functional, part structural). He gave me lot of exercises to do to
recover and build strength and flexibility in foot and ankles. And I
still (6 yr later) work on those issues, although not as hard as I used
to. But that's still a vulnerability of mine esp. on unstable trails.
Doug Freese
"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:ayrml.28106$4m1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> conrad wrote:
>> Holy cow you are not kidding! For those here that do plenty
>> of steep hill work, you must have Achilles of steel!
>
> Start gentle.
> Start slow.
> Start short.
> Build over time (years for us older runners).
sage advice! It can be years for most runners, nor just age bounded.
Severe climbs such as 10-15 takes a lot of time.
>> The previous day I did 9.75 miles with lots of hills.
>> Maybe it was the result of that or maybe I need to
>> incorporate more hill runs until my body adapts
>> to the stressors of steep inclines.
>
> Stress / recover. Did you allow for recovery after the 9.75 mi?
You shouldn't need to push any big hills more than one a week at best
and as Dot says, allow recovery. Too much of anything will cause your
parts some problems. Yes, hills, both short gentle repeats to long pulls
are necessary for strength, but do them carefully. Establish a good
base before embarking on a diet of hills.
>> Much respect to
>> you guys that do steep incline for long duration.
Been at it for almost 20 years but I work with many new to big climbs.
Like most runners they have a significant slice of type A and want to
get up the hill without stopping. Not an easy task to get over-achievers
to hike/walk a hill. Good form is must.
-D
Tony S.
news:ayrml.28106$4m1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I agree with this. The measures I use are #1 how is it feeling (all the
time) on my achillies, calves, solus; and #2 what is my effort, normally
measured by heart rate.
> TM hills aren't quite the same as real hills.
Huh? What do you mean here? Subtracting wind resistance of course,
hasn't it been well-established in past discussions here that the
physics of running on a treadmill are exactly the same as those of
running on a similar surface on the earth for both speed/distance and
incline?
>>
>> The previous day I did 9.75 miles with lots of hills.
>> Maybe it was the result of that or maybe I need to
>> incorporate more hill runs until my body adapts
>> to the stressors of steep inclines.
>
> Stress / recover. Did you allow for recovery after the 9.75 mi?
>
>
>> Much respect to
>> you guys that do steep incline for long duration.
>>
>> One of the first things that popped in my head
>> after my run was:
>> "If Achilles had done steep hill work, then
>> he would have probably been invincible."
>> But on a serious note, I will tackle that
>> 15 minute 15% grade challenge eventually!
>
> FWIW, I used to (knock on wood) have a bunch of achilles issues about
> 6+ yr ago - to the point where my GP suggested I give up running. My
> PT, being more knowledgeable about lower leg mechanics, recognized the
> cause (part functional, part structural). He gave me lot of exercises
> to do to recover and build strength and flexibility in foot and
> ankles. And I still (6 yr later) work on those issues, although not as
> hard as I used to. But that's still a vulnerability of mine esp. on
> unstable trails.
I agree, the irregularity of trail surfaces along with steeper inclines
can really exacerbate achilies issues. I have far more problems when
training on very rocky ground.
-Tony
Dot
> "Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
> news:ayrml.28106$4m1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>TM hills aren't quite the same as real hills.
>
>
> Huh? What do you mean here? Subtracting wind resistance of course,
> hasn't it been well-established in past discussions here that the
> physics of running on a treadmill are exactly the same as those of
> running on a similar surface on the earth for both speed/distance and
> incline?
I think the TM alters cadence and stride length a little - or more
properly, I probably alter my cadence and stride a little for fear of
falling off the back and staying within arm's reach of console. (I think
that's my issue with the stepmill also.) It also doesn't have a top so
you don't get a good feeling for pacing. And they definitely lack the
scenery, footing, twist, and turns.