Does height give an advantage ?
Steven van Aardt
Richard Barrett
And does someone with young children have a disadvantage? If so, separate
category. And job vs. in-school? Separate. And working 40 hours/week vs. 50/60?
Separate. And 30 miles per week training vs. 50? Separate. Number of years
running? Separate. Max VO? Separate. Fast twitch to slow twitch? Separate.
The result will be that you will be the only member of your "category",
and suddenly you will only be competing against yourself. Which to me,
at the ameteur road race, is the only legitimate measure anyway.
BTW, it appears that a majority of top distance runners are around 5'6". Guess
you'll have to find another excuse for not being in the Olympics :)
Richard
Dave Wiesenhahn
> Does a tall person have an advantage when it comes to
> running than a smaller person ? If so, perhaps we should
> have races categorised according to height/age-group/sex
> and distance.
From what I understand, many of the best distance runners are on the short
side, say less than 5'8" for men. Thus, the answer to you question is no.
> Steve
Dave Wiesenhahn | Feel it all with a willing heart
IDA | Every stop is a place to start
Alexandria, VA | If you know how to play the part with feeling
dwies...@ida.org | And I play with feeling
| J.B.
Bramley Matthew
>Does a tall person have an advantage when it comes to
>running than a smaller person ? If so, perhaps we should
>have races categorised according to height/age-group/sex
>and distance.
>
>
Sebastian Coe, still world record-holder over 800m (1:41.67) (and now member
of the British Parliament) only measures about 5ft6 - perhaps even less. While
that Brazilian who got withing a few 100ths of the record in the early 80s
(Cruz?) was pretty tall if I remember correctly...
--
+--------------------+---------------------------+--------------+
| Matthew J. Bramley | bram...@ere.umontreal.ca | 514 598 0623 |
+--------------------+---------------------------+--------------+
Unknown
marathon. I don't see that my height has limited me for distance running. (I
must say that I am not a world class runner, but I don't train like one,
either.) While my height is short, my weight is also less than many runners,
so my oxygen intake is probably less. Anyone can use some physical
limitation as a crutch if they wanted. It's so much more fun to ignore the
crutches and to go for whatever goal you want. You may find that you can meet
most of the ones you strive for!!!
William Bahnfleth
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>From: Billy G <70004...@CompuServe.COM>
>Newsgroups: rec.running
>Subject: Re: Does height give an advantage ?
>Date: 22 Aug 1995 00:12:24 GMT
>Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736)
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>References: <41a76b$a...@jusdnews.fir.fbc.com>
>Steve,
>It's been my experience that running is a short man's game.
>Perhaps in hurdles being tall may have its advantages but running
>a marathon requires efficiency. Much like cars, smaller models
>travel farther on a tank of gas!
>--(too tall) Bill
There are certainly a few exceptions around. Jack Batchelor comes to mind
immediately. If memory serves, Derek Clayton and some of the other well known
Australian and Kiwi runners were not exactly petite.
--
William P. Bahnfleth
Department of Architectural Engineering
Penn State University-University Park
wp...@psu.edu
Billy G
David Justin Rosen
>There are certainly a few exceptions around. Jack Batchelor comes to mind
>immediately. If memory serves, Derek Clayton and some of the other well known
>Australian and Kiwi runners were not exactly petite.
Clayton, who held the world record for over 12 years at 2:08:??, was
indeed exceptional. He was 6 feet, 1 inches tall, and weighed 165
pounds. As far as I know, he remains the only 2:08 marathoner in history
to weigh more than 160 lbs.
Clayton's height and weight weren't the only unusual things about him.
He was notorious for running 150-200 miles per week. His Sunday long
runs, of 20-30 miles, were usually run under 5:30 pace. Ron Clarke
(another Australian great), Clayton, and some other top-notch Australians
would occasionally get together for a Sunday 20-miler over rugged terrain.
Clarke once remarked that, after these long runs, Clayton would usually
go out and run another twenty miles at a *faster* pace. It is little
wonder that Clayton was chronically injured, and hence never performed
well in championships races. Nevertheless, his 2:08 marathon in 1969
(and his 2:09 two years before) stand out among the great performances
in marathon history. Prior to his 2:09 in Japan in 1967, no
marathoner had gone under 2:12. To shatter a world record by that much
is remarkable.
-Dave
David Justin Rosen
>Steve,
This is generally true (especially of marathon runners), but, for
whatever reason, American marathoners have traditionally been tall.
Just look at our some of our Olympic competitors.
In 1972 in Munich:
Frank Shorter 5'11" 1st
Kenny Moore 6'0" 4th
Jack Bachelor 6'7" 9th
.....then, in 1976 in Montreal:
Frank Shorter 5'11" 2nd
Don Kardong 6'3" 4th
Bill Rodgers 5'10" 40th
Amby Burfoot, who won the Boston marathon in 1968, is at least 6 feet
tall. Ed Eyestone, who has competed for the US in the last two Olympic
marathons, is 6'1" or 6'2". Bob Kempanien (sp?), the American record
holder, is over 6 feet as well. I could go on, but I think you get
the point. America produces tall marathoners. (Someone might also
point out that America produces lousy maratoners, but this would be
a cheap shot. Compared to the distance track events, at least, the
United States runners have performed relatively well in the Olympic
marathon.)
-Dave
William Bahnfleth
>In article <41a76b$a...@jusdnews.fir.fbc.com> sva...@fir.fbc.com (Steven van Aardt) writes:
>>Does a tall person have an advantage when it comes to
>>running than a smaller person ? ...
>Sebastian Coe, still world record-holder over 800m (1:41.67) (and now member
>of the British Parliament) only measures about 5ft6 - perhaps even less. While
>that Brazilian who got withing a few 100ths of the record in the early 80s
>(Cruz?) was pretty tall if I remember correctly...
Another contrast in the 800m (and I believe they were contemporaries) would be
Rick Wolhuter (very slight) of the US and Alberto Juantorena (a horse--and
winner of the 400/800 double in Montreal 1976).
William Bahnfleth
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>From: fooz...@cats.ucsc.edu (David Justin Rosen)
>Newsgroups: rec.running
>Subject: Re: Does height give an advantage ?
>Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
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>>There are certainly a few exceptions around. Jack Batchelor comes to mind
>>immediately. If memory serves, Derek Clayton and some of the other well known
>>Australian and Kiwi runners were not exactly petite.
>Clayton, who held the world record for over 12 years at 2:08:??, was
>indeed exceptional. He was 6 feet, 1 inches tall, and weighed 165
>pounds. As far as I know, he remains the only 2:08 marathoner in history
>to weigh more than 160 lbs.
>Clayton's height and weight weren't the only unusual things about him.
>He was notorious for running 150-200 miles per week. His Sunday long
>runs, of 20-30 miles, were usually run under 5:30 pace. Ron Clarke
>(another Australian great)...
I have an article on Clark that says he weighed 161 lb, no height given.
RaceWalker
> Does a tall person have an advantage when it comes to
> running than a smaller person ?
How would being tall give an advantage? If you think that it is because
they have longer legs giving a longer stride, then remember that a taller
person would also be carrying more weight (not all of their height is in
the legs) and potentially have a slower turnover rate.
More important are who their parents were (their genes) and the training
they do.
In race walking (my sport), the best of the best are around 5' 8".
Paul
--
___
/__) ^ | | | ^ __| ^ |\ /| ______________________________
/ /-\ |__| |__ /-\(__|/-\| V | (__ pa...@erc.msstate.edu
___________________________________________)
Doug Freese
Shelly,
Congrats! The best common sense reply for this entire thread.
Generally speaking, if one is in the realm of elite, thank your parents.
You can't make silk purse out of a sows ear. :)
--
Doug Freese All opinions are mine. IBM Tele: 8-293-8098
INTERNET dvfr...@kgn.ibm.com
Beemermail dvfr...@mailserv.kgn.ibm.com
VM_mail DVFREESE@MHV
carbon14
>sva...@fir.fbc.com (Steven van Aardt) writes:
>> Does a tall person have an advantage when it comes to
>> running than a smaller person ?
>How would being tall give an advantage? If you think that it is because
>they have longer legs giving a longer stride, then remember that a taller
>person would also be carrying more weight (not all of their height is in
>the legs) and potentially have a slower turnover rate.
The way I have learned it is this: Remember a taller person
will have a larger lung capacity - true that he has more
weight but if the person is both tall (6' - 6'3") and lean
(160 - 170 lbs ) which is very lean for someone of that
height, the ratio of lung volume - to weight is better than
someone smaller but has a smaller proportioned lung volume.
I know, I know - lung volume doen not mean higher VO2 values
all the time but generally there is a good correlation
between them. In cycling people suggest that smaller riders
are stronger - this is true but only in the hills and
mountains on a flat course the bigger, more powerful riders
will prevail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__o o Tri it!
Carbon14 _ \<_ < \ You'll like
__/\o_ ( )/( ) / > it. . .
deba...@mines.utah.edu
the really fast runners at road races, they seem to have proportionally
long legs.
Ever notice that?
db
Richard Barrett
"tall" people. Won the LA marathon. Won Elby's 20k, which has monster
hills.
The search for legitimate excuses continues...a favorite topic of joggers,
...I mean runners...
Richard
>I am only 4 ft 11 and have real disadvantages. If your legs are short you
>run further. I have real problems on the hills - where long legs have the
^^^^^^^
An interesting quandary for linguists. 'Further' refers to time, 'farther'
to distance. Many would assume you're talking distance, and therefore
have deeply offended many. Yet you, of course, may claim that you must
run longer in terms of time. Then again, that is because you must run
farther. Gosh, this _is_ a problem...
>advantage. Being short is no great shakes.
>
>Maryanne Gooch
Maryanne Gooch
dwies...@ida.org says...
>> have races categorised according to height/age-group/sex
>> and distance.
>
short
>side, say less than 5'8" for men. Thus, the answer to you question is
no.
>
>> Steve
>
>Dave Wiesenhahn | Feel it all with a willing heart
>IDA | Every stop is a place to start
>Alexandria, VA | If you know how to play the part with feeling
>dwies...@ida.org | And I play with feeling
> | J.B.
I am only 4 ft 11 and have real disadvantages. If your legs are short you
run further. I have real problems on the hills - where long legs have the
William Bahnfleth
>In article <debarnet-230...@204mac.gg.utah.edu>,
deba...@mines.utah.edu writes:>|> I wouldn't say that height is necessarily
an advantage, but if you look at>|> the really fast runners at road races,
they seem to have proportionally>|> long legs.
>I recall lining up against a Kenyan runner at a local race, and feeling like
>his legs came up to his ears. And beautiful quads. Then again, Todd Williams
>looks kinda stumpy...
Seems like we've progressed from citing world-class tall runners to rebut the
shorter-is-better hypothesis to looking for long-waisted folks as
counter-examples to the new Kenyan paradigm...
I'll weigh in with a few specific examples (some whom are also tall and
fairly heavy--didn't they know better than to waste their time?):
Rob de Castella
Waldemar Cierpinski
Ron Clarke
Derek Clayton
and further note that some racial groups that are or have been quite
successful--the Japanese for example, often have short legs.
Bramley Matthew
>In article 3039...@psu.edu, wp...@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth) writes:
>> Bramley Matthew writes:
>
>> >>Does a tall person have an advantage when it comes to
>>
>> >Sebastian Coe, still world record-holder over 800m (1:41.67) (and now member
>> >of the British Parliament) only measures about 5ft6 - perhaps even less. While
>> >that Brazilian who got withing a few 100ths of the record in the early 80s
>> >(Cruz?) was pretty tall if I remember correctly...
>
>both of these figures are around the average in the UK (5'10") . I
>don't remember Cruz ever getting that close to Coe's record and thought
>that Juantorena's previous record was the closest to Coe's mark until
>the late 80's (possibly). Cruz is best remembered for his devastating
>performance in the 1983 world championships which demoralised the aging
>Coe.
OK so I might have been wrong about Coe's height... but I am seriously
convinced that Joachim Cruz did a 1:41:71. Unfortunately I can't
remember the meet; it was one of those evenings in continental Europe
I think. Can anyone help out?
Richard Barrett
|> I wouldn't say that height is necessarily an advantage, but if you look at
|> the really fast runners at road races, they seem to have proportionally
|> long legs.
|>
I recall lining up against a Kenyan runner at a local race, and feeling like
his legs came up to his ears. And beautiful quads. Then again, Todd Williams
looks kinda stumpy...
Richard
|> Ever notice that?
|>
|> db
HamiltonT
disadvantage. Most of the very fast runners are also very light.
The taller a person is the more they usually weigh. I 6' person usually
weighs more than someone 5'6". The extra weight is a big disadvantage.
It takes more energy to carry 200 lbs. a mile than 150 lbs. a mile.
David Justin Rosen
>OK so I might have been wrong about Coe's height... but I am seriously
>convinced that Joachim Cruz did a 1:41:71. Unfortunately I can't
>remember the meet; it was one of those evenings in continental Europe
>I think. Can anyone help out?
You are almost right--Joaquim Cruz ran 1:41.77 for the 800 meters.
He accomplished that considerable feat at a meet in Cologne, Germany
on August 26, 1984.
By the way, Coe's official world record is 1:41.73, not 1:41.67.
-Dave
Bob Brockman
>> have races categorised according to height/age-group/sex
>> and distance.
>
>From what I understand, many of the best distance runners
>are on the short side, say less than 5'8" for men. Thus,
>the answer to you question is no.
>
>> Steve
There seem to be lots of exceptions, though. Could it be
that the average height for elite distance runners is around
5'8" or so because this is about "average height", period?
In other words, maybe there are more good distance runners
of about this height because there are more *people* of about
this height...
BTW, I'm exactly 5'8"... so being the ideal height doesn't
necessarily mean you'll be fast ;-)
Bob Brockman
Nimbus Couzin
I'd say height gives you an advantage if your goal is to run slow..
Most of the really fast long distance runners seem to be shorter and
lighter than me whenever I hear their height/weights. I'm 5'11'',
and 145 lbs., so not exactly huge, but some of these guys out there
setting the records are more like 5'6'' and 125 lbs.
I think elf-like humans can run along easily, practically floating.
Yes, that's it.
N.
Ronnie Townsend
|> Lines: 28
|>
|> In article <41clfu$e...@cri.ens-lyon.fr> gmcs...@ens-lyon.fr writes:
|> >In article 3039...@psu.edu, wp...@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth) writes:
|> >> Bramley Matthew writes:
|> >
|> >>
|> >> >Sebastian Coe, still world record-holder over 800m (1:41.67) (and now member
|> >> >of the British Parliament) only measures about 5ft6 - perhaps even less. While
|> >> >that Brazilian who got withing a few 100ths of the record in the early 80s
|> >> >(Cruz?) was pretty tall if I remember correctly...
|> >
|> >For the record Coe was 5'9" and his contemporary Ovett was nearer 6' -
|> >both of these figures are around the average in the UK (5'10") . I
|> >don't remember Cruz ever getting that close to Coe's record and thought
|> >that Juantorena's previous record was the closest to Coe's mark until
|> >the late 80's (possibly). Cruz is best remembered for his devastating
|> >performance in the 1983 world championships which demoralised the aging
|> >Coe.
|>
|> convinced that Joachim Cruz did a 1:41:71. Unfortunately I can't
|> remember the meet; it was one of those evenings in continental Europe
|> I think. Can anyone help out?
Here's the all-time list..
Men, 800 m:
1. Sebastian Coe GBR 1.41,73 81/06/10 Florence
2. Joaquim Cruz BRA 1.41,77 84/08/26 Cologne
3. Sammy Koskei KEN 1.42,28 84/08/26 Cologne
4. Johnny Gray USA 1.42,60 85/08/28 Koblenz
5. Wilson Kipketer DEN 1.42,87 95/07/25 Monaco
6. Steve Cram GBR 1.42,88 85/08/21 Zürich
7. Peter Elliott GBR 1.42,97 90/05/30 Seville
8. Billy Konchellah KEN 1.43,06 87/09/01 Rome WC
9. Jose-Luis Barbosa BRA 1.43,08 91/09/06 Rieti
10 Paul Ereng KEN 1.43,16 89/08/16 Zürich
11 Benson Koech KEN 1.43,17 94/08/28 Rieti
12 William Tanui KEN 1.43,30 91/09/06 Rieti
13 Nixon Kiprotich KEN 1.43,31 92/09/06 Rieti
14 David Mack USA 1.43,35 85/08/28 Koblenz
15 Mark Everett USA 1.43,40 92/07/04 Oslo
16 Alberto Juantorena CUB 1.43,44 77/08/21 Sofia
17 Vebjörn Rodal NOR 1.43,50 94/07/22 Oslo
18 William Wuycke VEN 1.43,54 86/09/07 Rieti
19 Rob Druppers HOL 1.43,56 85/08/25 Cologne
20 Mike Boit KEN 1.43,57 76/08/20 Berlin
--
Ronnie T.
SGI Product Support Engineer
CSE-UniX
ron...@csd.sgi.com
(415-390-2529)
Erik Wilde
> I'd say height gives you an advantage if your goal is to run slow..
> Most of the really fast long distance runners seem to be shorter and
> lighter than me whenever I hear their height/weights. I'm 5'11'',
> and 145 lbs., so not exactly huge, but some of these guys out there
> setting the records are more like 5'6'' and 125 lbs.
> I think elf-like humans can run along easily, practically floating.
> Yes, that's it.
I'm afraid you're right. I'll be in the Jungfrau-Marathon here in Switzerland
in 10 days (check it out, it has a exceptionally colourful web page at
http://www.unisource.ch/jungfrau) where the marathon distance is spiced with
nearly 2k height difference between start and finish. I'm pretty sure that my
weight (85kg = 187lb) and height (196cm = 6'5'') will be a significant
disadvantage for me (not to speak of my physical condition...). I am prepared
to run the first 25k pretty well (the - more or less - flat part of the course)
and to see hundreds of dwarfs pass me in the steep last 17k. Anyway, my main
hope is that it will get warmer (70cm of fresh snow at the finish last sunday),
otherwise it will be extremly hard for everyone...
Erik.
phil. Felton
> In article <41clfu$e...@cri.ens-lyon.fr> gmcs...@ens-lyon.fr writes:
> >In article 3039...@psu.edu, wp...@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth) writes:
> >> Bramley Matthew writes:
> >
> >> >>Does a tall person have an advantage when it comes to
> >> >>running than a smaller person ? ...
(deleted)
In the August issue of Running Research News there is an article which examines
the ? of whether the difference between men and women's running performance
is just due to the size difference. The statement is made that in elite
competition the stride rates are very similar. Some examples are given:
Paul Terat, 1.82m tall, 1/2 marathon time 60mins,
Tegla Loroupe, 1.50 m, " 68mins,
scaled for height Loroupe is slightly faster.
Leroy Burrell, 6' tall, 100m time 9.85,
Flo-Jo,5'6-1/2" tall, 100m time 10.49,
again the women is slightly faster!
The material was abstracted from "It's mostly a matter of metric", in 'Women and
Sport: Interdisciplinary Perspectives', D. Margaret Costa and Sharon R. Guthrie,
pp. 143-162, Human Kinetics Press, 1994.
Phil.
deba...@mines.utah.edu
fel...@phoenix.princeton.edu (phil. Felton) wrote:
> In the August issue of Running Research News there is an article which
examines
> the ? of whether the difference between men and women's running performance
> is just due to the size difference. The statement is made that in elite
> competition the stride rates are very similar. Some examples are given:
> Paul Terat, 1.82m tall, 1/2 marathon time 60mins,
> Tegla Loroupe, 1.50 m, " 68mins,
> scaled for height Loroupe is slightly faster.
> Leroy Burrell, 6' tall, 100m time 9.85,
> Flo-Jo,5'6-1/2" tall, 100m time 10.49,
> again the women is slightly faster!
It seems to me that a more important measure would be inseam length, not
height. The height from the waist up can't be helping any (or much,
anyway) compared to the length of the leg, which are levers operated by
the hips (to some sort of approximation). Are there data on that?
db
Kyle Parrish
><snip>
>is just due to the size difference. The statement is made that in elite
>competition the stride rates are very similar. Some examples are given:
>Paul Terat, 1.82m tall, 1/2 marathon time 60mins,
>Tegla Loroupe, 1.50 m, " 68mins,
>scaled for height Loroupe is slightly faster.
>
>Leroy Burrell, 6' tall, 100m time 9.85,
>Flo-Jo,5'6-1/2" tall, 100m time 10.49,
>again the women is slightly faster!
>
WOW!!
Bad science, and getting worse. This is real hocky, man.
What are the results when scaled for width, calf circumference, hair
density, and chest firmness?
hehehehehehe.
Kyle