Impression of SFMM
Dave Althoff, Jr.
(Monday) I visited Six Flags Magic Mountain.
In a nutshell: If that park were operated by a group of people who
actually cared about the place, it would easily be one of the finest
amusement parks in the country.
You know who would do a great job with it? The same people who run Six
Flags St. Louis.
The best thing that could happen to that park would be for Six Flags to
sell it off whole (think Geauga Lake style) to someone who wants to make
it a great park. The infrastructure is there, it just needs to be
cleaned up in many important ways.
I wonder who could buy it and do justice to it. Is there anybody out
there other than Cedar Fair who could do it right? Because I don't think
Cedar Fair is the knight to save this one...
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
/X\ _ _ *** Ride carefully! Now open daily! ***
/XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /X\__ _ _ _____
/XXXXX\ /XXX\ /XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
Steven Wilson
> I'm in the middle of a two-week trip across the country. Yesterday
> (Monday) I visited Six Flags Magic Mountain.
>
> In a nutshell: If that park were operated by a group of people who
> actually cared about the place, it would easily be one of the finest
> amusement parks in the country.
>
> You know who would do a great job with it? The same people who run Six
> Flags St. Louis.
>
> The best thing that could happen to that park would be for Six Flags to
> sell it off whole (think Geauga Lake style) to someone who wants to make
> it a great park. The infrastructure is there, it just needs to be
> cleaned up in many important ways.
>
> I wonder who could buy it and do justice to it. Is there anybody out
> there other than Cedar Fair who could do it right? Because I don't think
> Cedar Fair is the knight to save this one...
I agree. This is what I wrote in response to a suggestion on another
thread that SFMM's demise would serve as a form of enthusiasts' revenge
on a disappointing park:
<<
The best "revenge" would be to turn it into a world-class,
showplace/flagship park that combines the best thrill rides with quality
family rides and attractions in a safe, clean environment staffed with
caring, enthusiastic employees trained in the best tradition of
old-school Six Flags hospitality (e.g. the original SFOT). I'm not
saying that they've got the budget to do this, but to my mind, this
outcome would be much better than running bulldozers over the entire
acreage.
>>
Whether you love it or hate it, SFMM has the potential to be a great
park. It takes someone who could make that big commitment, though, and
I don't know who that might be today. I do know, however, that whenever
I see the site of a defunct park that became nothing more than a further
expansion of the maddening sea of sameness of urban sprawl, I remember
how special all amusement parks can be and that wiping them out
contributes to the monotony and dullness of the world.
Steven GREAT AMERICA parks.
eze...@yahoo.com http://www.greatamericaparks.com/
Robert
<dalloff....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>I'm in the middle of a two-week trip across the country. Yesterday
>(Monday) I visited Six Flags Magic Mountain.
>
>In a nutshell: If that park were operated by a group of people who
>actually cared about the place, it would easily be one of the finest
>amusement parks in the country.
>
>You know who would do a great job with it? The same people who run Six
>Flags St. Louis.
>
>The best thing that could happen to that park would be for Six Flags to
>sell it off whole (think Geauga Lake style) to someone who wants to make
>it a great park. The infrastructure is there, it just needs to be
>cleaned up in many important ways.
>
>I wonder who could buy it and do justice to it. Is there anybody out
>there other than Cedar Fair who could do it right? Because I don't think
>Cedar Fair is the knight to save this one...
I'm prone to the idea of NBC/Universal buying the place - moving the
"non-studio" attractions from the much-more-valuable-for-the-land
Universal Studios (and their crazy-ass escalators), and making it sort
of an IOA/West. I think they could take the park and do something
good to it. Mountain of Adventure?
KeRu60
everyone thinks is wrong with this park. Could someone please add a few
specific details? Last I was there in 2000 I had no complaints.
Ken
TeknoScorpion
potential of any park I've ever been to.
If it had been run right and had a nice collection of family and thrill
flats, with a dark ride or 2 thrown in, SFMM would be so much better,
IMO, than Cedar Point.
ri...@aol.com
> "non-studio" attractions from the much-more-valuable-for-the-land
> Universal Studios (and their crazy-ass escalators), and making it sort
> of an IOA/West. I think they could take the park and do something
> good to it. Mountain of Adventure?
I posted in another thread that Universal could play up a "you're on a
movie location" angle since Magic Mountain has been used for many
movies and TV shows -- including "Rollercoaster," which was a Universal
picture!
It still comes down to who is interested in buying: a theme park
operator or a real estate developer. Shapiro mentioned in the press
release that they were putting these parks out there because the losers
in the Paramount parks sale might still be shopping. How likely is
that?
Rik
deadand...@gmail.com
Even bigger as a question: If you lost on the Paramount deal (where
profitable parks were sold), why buy possibly unprofitable parks from a
failing company? I really don't see the logic there.
I'm sure that some indepenent investors may come along and make offers
though.
Rob Ascough
news:0vqog.30437$VE1....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> I wonder who could buy it and do justice to it. Is there anybody out
> there other than Cedar Fair who could do it right? Because I don't think
> Cedar Fair is the knight to save this one...
Busch. Not like it's going to happen, but it should.
Get rid of half the coasters, the lousy and unreliable ones- X, Viper, Deja
Vu, Superman, etc. Do something with the rest of them, maybe turn Colossus
and Revolution back into decent rides. I heard someone (somewhere) mention
taking the light Asian theming of parts of the park and building on that to
turn it into Busch Gardens Asia. Why not? The park has a nice setting and
Busch could easily use that to do what they do in the rest of their parks.
Add a good variety of shows and other stuff typical of Busch and Sea World
parks and I think you'd have a winner. It would be different from Knotts
and different from Disney and far enough away from Sea World to take
business away from that park.
Cedar Fair would remove from the park any of the character it has left while
letting the wood coasters fall into a further state of mediocrity. Besides,
that company is going to have its work cut out for them. They haven't fixed
Geauga Lake yet and already they have five more parks to integrate into
their portfolio.
deadand...@gmail.com
> Vu, Superman, etc. Do something with the rest of them, maybe turn Colossus
> and Revolution back into decent rides. I heard someone (somewhere) mention
> taking the light Asian theming of parts of the park and building on that to
> turn it into Busch Gardens Asia. Why not? The park has a nice setting and
> Busch could easily use that to do what they do in the rest of their parks.
> Add a good variety of shows and other stuff typical of Busch and Sea World
> parks and I think you'd have a winner. It would be different from Knotts
> and different from Disney and far enough away from Sea World to take
> business away from that park.
Sit back and think about this. Your business plan includes getting rid
of almost all the large, drawing attractions from the park, and
replacing them with theming and shows. I don't see that being viable.
If you're a local, why would you want to go to a stripped Six Flags
with half the rides for the same price? Because its clean? You can
always go to Knotts for that.
> Cedar Fair would remove from the park any of the character it has left while
> letting the wood coasters fall into a further state of mediocrity. Besides,
> that company is going to have its work cut out for them. They haven't fixed
> Geauga Lake yet and already they have five more parks to integrate into
> their portfolio.
What character is there to lose at SFMM? Its long fucking gone. Let the
wood coasters fall into a further state of mediocrity? There's nothing
you can do to make either worse. Cedar Fair would at least get Colossus
to race occasionally. It barely does that now. I mean, seriously, how
could they make them worse? Psyclone is flat out horrid, and could only
be fixed if it was practically torn down and rebuilt from the ground
up. Colossus has been so totally fucked with, it ain't coming back.
You'd be better off building a new wood coaster in its place.
Besides, what history with wood coasters does Busch Gardens have?
Gwazi? Gee, sure see a lot of Gwazi love on the net, dontcha? Could you
imagine the ridiculous safety checks on virtually every coaster at
SFMM?
Yeah, they haven't fixed Geauga yet. Big shock. The place was
practically in ruins when Seis Banderas left. Its gonna take years to
repair what happened there. Paramount? Uh, they're all profitable and
have rights to profitable franchises for many years? It ain't like
buying the Walibis or taking La Ronde off of the city of Montreal's
hands.
TeknoScorpion
more purchases...unless the right one fell in to place. Although I
doubt it, I wouldn't totally count them out of it. They are asking for
$300mill in revolving credit and they seem to have the PP purchase
already figured out and a planned pay off that looks like it would
work.
As for SFMM, if someone did purchase it and keep it as a park, it has
so much potential. I'd get rid of Flashback for sure if it were me.
I'd also option to get rid of Deja Vu perhaps and maybe something else,
but as for X and Supes, these are high profile rides that, although we
as enthusiasts most often wouldn't mind seeing go (I personally like
X), the GP could/would still care about if the park was run right.
The biggest problem with SFMM is that it has a bad rep and its going to
take a few million BEYOND SELLING PRICE to get it up to decent
standards. Painting and mantaining/refurbing all the rides as well as
getting capacity up and doing some basic infrastructure improvements
along with training, switching all licensing over, and planning for
things like new uniforms, operational changes, etc. cost money.
It could be done. If the park was brought up to at least good
operating standards, you then have the potential of running a park that
can do well more than 3mill a year in attendance, add cheaper, yet
popular family rides, a thrill ride or two, and even a family coaster
in time. The potential is there, and I think that is why so many
enthusiasts are disgusted with the park. It could be amazing.
Look at the coaster lineup:
X has potential to be amazing. Sure, some enthusiasts don't like it,
but even with decent capacity, it commands a line. The GP love it
Supes, though I'm not a fan, is still very Iconic for the park. I'd
venture a guess that even running at full power, its a ride that many
people who are afraid of inversions could/would ride as, honestly, the
thing doesn't blast you out at full force or do much other than an up
and back motion.
Goliath is intense, yet still a little closer to family-ish type
coaster than mega thrill coaster. The ride is popular and fun.
Colossus could be refurbished to at least a wooden coaster again. It
would take time and money, but running 2 trains on each side could
really eat thru people on a busy day, and the ride can be a lot of fun
if maintained correctly
Psyclone is in the same position as Colossus. It could be a fun,
popular ride that has potential to have great capacity.
You have 2 kiddie/family coasters for the little ones.
Ninja is not only fun, but really more of a less 'thrilling' family-esq
coaster. Running at good capacity, it can also reduce lines elsewheres
in the park.
Deja Vu, while a capacity problem, will remain popular. Even with the
best maintainance, this ride is going to be problematic, but it is
another line open and ups the parks capacity.
Goldrusher is the ultimate family ride. Fun for everyone and higher
capacity.
Viper was honestly one of the smoother arrow mega loopers I've done.
It had some stacking problems, but the line was still decent enough
(even though the station was confusing), and the GP seemed to like it.
Higher park capacity and still a fun ride.
Revolution. Okay, its not up to what I'm sure was once an almost
perfect standard. The ride COULD be fun, without trims and OTSRs. I'd
lvoe to see the trains refurbed. However, even with regular
operations, as long as the ops do their job, the ride eats people, and
it is a good 'middle' coaster. Not many inversions, tons of possible
fun, and a romp thru the woods and around the mountain.
Scream, Bats, Tatsu, and Riddlers, if run correctly, are all great
capacity AND offer a nice range of mildly intense to Intense rides for
thrill seekers. They can all run at least 2 high capacity trains and
are good rides when maintained.
Honestly, If just the coasters were up to standard, and I'm not trying
to do a Vs. CP thing here, but since they're both comperable in coaster
count, there are more coasters I'd rather ride at SFMM than I would at
CP. There are more coasters with potential there. The park could be
turned around, improved, and made in to a money maker. Then,
eventually, they could add a hotel(s), possibly with an indoor
waterpark, and maybe something City-Walk or Downtown Disney-esq. It
could be turned in to a profitable resort.
But again, that takes money past the asking price. Who wants to buy a
park and then spend money to get it just up to the minimum of good
standards to run? Oh, and I didn't even go in to improving the parks
reputation, which would cost even more...
Mike Kallay
Rob Ascough wrote:
> Busch. Not like it's going to happen, but it should.
>
> taking the light Asian theming of parts of the park and building on that to
> turn it into Busch Gardens Asia. Why not? The park has a nice setting and
> Busch could easily use that to do what they do in the rest of their parks.
> Add a good variety of shows and other stuff typical of Busch and Sea World
> parks and I think you'd have a winner. It would be different from Knotts
> and different from Disney and far enough away from Sea World to take
> business away from that park.
It would come full circle then, because it was Sea World who developed
Magic Mountain:
http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/lw7901b.htm
I'm betting on Blackstone to pick it up and keep it going. They've done
it before (having brokered the Time Warner deal, plus financed most of
Uni Florida). Plus, having just added Legoland parks and Merlin parks
to its Blackstone Capital Partners division, they are ready for another
potential jewel. Most importantly, they have two things needed for
SFMM: lots of cash, and a background in real estate to really
understand how to fully utilize that park. I could see them
redeveloping land around the park for hotels and retail centers, while
putting in a structure for parking to minimize the footprint.
/mike
Rob Ascough
news:1151509055.6...@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
>
> Sit back and think about this. Your business plan includes getting rid
> of almost all the large, drawing attractions from the park, and
> replacing them with theming and shows. I don't see that being viable.
> If you're a local, why would you want to go to a stripped Six Flags
> with half the rides for the same price? Because its clean? You can
> always go to Knotts for that.
Yeah, the park has a lot of crap that it could do without. Superman and X
are popular rides, except they have shit capacity and probably piss off more
people than they entertain. Besides, it's all those XTREME coasters that
have made the park a teensitter. If you actually took the time to think
about what I said, my idea isn't to strip SFMM and charge the same price- my
plan is to transform SFMM into something that would make it more popular
with people that actually spend money in parks. Disneyland has a huge local
following and none of their rides are as thrilling as those at SFMM.
> What character is there to lose at SFMM? Its long fucking gone.
The observation tower, the inclined railway, the monorail... Cedar Fair
would rip that stuff out. Another amusement park operator might find value
in that stuff as secondary attractions.
> Let the
> wood coasters fall into a further state of mediocrity? There's nothing
> you can do to make either worse. Cedar Fair would at least get Colossus
> to race occasionally. It barely does that now. I mean, seriously, how
> could they make them worse? Psyclone is flat out horrid, and could only
> be fixed if it was practically torn down and rebuilt from the ground
> up. Colossus has been so totally fucked with, it ain't coming back.
> You'd be better off building a new wood coaster in its place.
Yeah, because Cedar Fair has such a stellar track record with wood coasters.
Mean Streak blows. Thunderhawk is a shell of its former self. Have you
ridden Villain lately? Hercules was so bad that they took it down and
replaced it with a steel coaster. Do you honestly think that Cedar Fair
would take down Colossus and Psyclone and replace them with a new wood
coaster? Wake the hell up.
> Besides, what history with wood coasters does Busch Gardens have?
> Gwazi? Gee, sure see a lot of Gwazi love on the net, dontcha? Could you
> imagine the ridiculous safety checks on virtually every coaster at
> SFMM?
I find Gwazi to be a fantastic ride. I have ridden it many times and it has
never disappointed me. You may feel differently but I wouldn't say that
Busch ignores it. Besides, I don't think Busch has ever had much of an
opportunity to build a history with wood coasters. I'm sure there would be
one at BGE right now if the cranky neighbors didn't always complain about
noise from the park.
> Yeah, they haven't fixed Geauga yet. Big shock. The place was
> practically in ruins when Seis Banderas left. Its gonna take years to
> repair what happened there. Paramount? Uh, they're all profitable and
> have rights to profitable franchises for many years? It ain't like
> buying the Walibis or taking La Ronde off of the city of Montreal's
> hands.
If Cedar Fair would invest 1/10th the money they invest in unreliable
Intamin coasters for Cedar Point in Geauga Lake instead, the park would be
in a better position than it is right now. You seriously believe they were
so broke that RWB had to be retracked over a period of THREE YEARS? It's
because Geauga Lake is the red-headed stepchild of the company, just like
every park that isn't Cedar Point. CF will always cater to what they have
in Sandusky and feed everyone else stuff long afterwards. The same would be
true of they purchased SFMM.
mamoosh
"Help...I'm falling and I can't get up!"
Eric Griswold
> My impression of SFMM:
>
> "Help...I'm falling and I can't get up!"
Take it easy. Have a Budweiser. That'll make you feel better. :-)
(I so would love to see Busch Gardens: Wild West, but I'm just dreaming.
I still remember loving Spillikin Corners.)
Eric
deadand...@gmail.com
> > of almost all the large, drawing attractions from the park, and
> > replacing them with theming and shows. I don't see that being viable.
> > If you're a local, why would you want to go to a stripped Six Flags
> > with half the rides for the same price? Because its clean? You can
> > always go to Knotts for that.
>
> Yeah, the park has a lot of crap that it could do without. Superman and X
> are popular rides, except they have shit capacity and probably piss off more
> people than they entertain. Besides, it's all those XTREME coasters that
> have made the park a teensitter. If you actually took the time to think
> about what I said, my idea isn't to strip SFMM and charge the same price- my
> plan is to transform SFMM into something that would make it more popular
> with people that actually spend money in parks. Disneyland has a huge local
> following and none of their rides are as thrilling as those at SFMM.
>
You're comparing SFMM to Disney. Let me repeat that. Disney. They are
not going to beat Disney at their own game. No one does that. Not only
do they have to compete with Disney, but there's Knott's, and to a
lesser degree, Legoland. SFMM also isn't in Tampa (where its alone as
the home park) nor is it in a well touristed location like BGW is. Its
a crowded market there.
> > What character is there to lose at SFMM? Its long fucking gone.
>
> The observation tower, the inclined railway, the monorail... Cedar Fair
> would rip that stuff out. Another amusement park operator might find value
> in that stuff as secondary attractions.
Yeah, okay, the monorail. How often is the monorail even open? The
Observation Tower would be closed? Its barely open as is now. Why would
you anticipate it would close when Cedar Fair runs observation towers
of their own?
>
> > Let the
> > wood coasters fall into a further state of mediocrity? There's nothing
> > you can do to make either worse. Cedar Fair would at least get Colossus
> > to race occasionally. It barely does that now. I mean, seriously, how
> > could they make them worse? Psyclone is flat out horrid, and could only
> > be fixed if it was practically torn down and rebuilt from the ground
> > up. Colossus has been so totally fucked with, it ain't coming back.
> > You'd be better off building a new wood coaster in its place.
>
> Yeah, because Cedar Fair has such a stellar track record with wood coasters.
> Mean Streak blows. Thunderhawk is a shell of its former self. Have you
> ridden Villain lately? Hercules was so bad that they took it down and
> replaced it with a steel coaster. Do you honestly think that Cedar Fair
> would take down Colossus and Psyclone and replace them with a new wood
> coaster? Wake the hell up.
Let me ask you: Do you think ANY, and I mean ANY amusement operator is
going to walk into SFMM and take the horsecollars off of Revolution, or
reprofile Colossus back to its former glory? Because if you are, you're
nuts. It ain't happening. It doesn't matter if its Cedar Fair or not.
Now, I know its easy to blame Cedar Fair for Hercules sucking, but it
sucked before CF came in. It had already been sitting there for 3
years, and was never going to age well under any circumstances. Mean
Streak is a mistake on virtually everyone's part, but hell, it just
followed a trend in the industry at the time in building large wood
coasters. Texas Giant and Rattler are other good examples of that. I
bet if Cedar Fair had their way, they'd have never built the ride,
given its low ridership, high maintenance costs, etc.
Besides, all this entails that a private company or Busch would make
serious efforts to improve both rides by changing their
structure/changing trains, whereas Cedar Fair wouldn't. Simply put,
that's a stupid dream, and nothing remotely like reality. I mean, how
do you screw up Psyclone? Tearing it down and building benches out of
the structure would be better use of it.
>
> > Besides, what history with wood coasters does Busch Gardens have?
> > Gwazi? Gee, sure see a lot of Gwazi love on the net, dontcha? Could you
> > imagine the ridiculous safety checks on virtually every coaster at
> > SFMM?
>
> I find Gwazi to be a fantastic ride. I have ridden it many times and it has
> never disappointed me. You may feel differently but I wouldn't say that
> Busch ignores it. Besides, I don't think Busch has ever had much of an
> opportunity to build a history with wood coasters. I'm sure there would be
> one at BGE right now if the cranky neighbors didn't always complain about
> noise from the park.
>
Busch has had all the opportunity in the world to build wood coasters.
And really, what I'm referring to more than anything are the inane
safety checks on Gwazi. Its capacity is absolute crap as a result. I
think its a decent ride, but its nothing mind blowing.
> If Cedar Fair would invest 1/10th the money they invest in unreliable
> Intamin coasters for Cedar Point in Geauga Lake instead, the park would be
> in a better position than it is right now. You seriously believe they were
> so broke that RWB had to be retracked over a period of THREE YEARS? It's
> because Geauga Lake is the red-headed stepchild of the company, just like
> every park that isn't Cedar Point. CF will always cater to what they have
> in Sandusky and feed everyone else stuff long afterwards. The same would be
> true of they purchased SFMM.
Facts:
1) RWB's retracking started with the Six Flags regime. If you want to
blame anyone for not finishing the job the first time, blame Six Flags.
2) What Intamin coasters has Cedar Fair built since buying Geauga?
Matter of fact, what coasters have been purchased by CF, period, for
the chain?
3) Geauga Lake's gotten improvements in its water park, which is more
likely to pay dividends than building additional coasters at a cheaper
cost.
4) Geauga Lake had pitiful attendance under Six Flags, particularly in
its last year under the SF banner.
5) Cedar Point is the flagship park. Why would they build record
breakers in Kansas City?
5A) Speaking of that, you mean to tell me they haven't spent money in
Knott's? Really? List all the attractions built by Cedar Point at the
Knotts site, please.
TCKR
Eric Griswold wrote:
> (I so would love to see Busch Gardens: Wild West, but I'm just dreaming.
> I still remember loving Spillikin Corners.)
Perhaps they should go with Busch Gardens Compton. It seems that most
of the necessary theming is already in place.
Rich "TCKR" Genthner
____\\PTC '99//____
deadand...@gmail.com
TCKR wrote:
> Eric Griswold wrote:
> > (I so would love to see Busch Gardens: Wild West, but I'm just dreaming.
> > I still remember loving Spillikin Corners.)
>
> Perhaps they should go with Busch Gardens Compton. It seems that most
> of the necessary theming is already in place.
>
You know, I've been waiting my whole life for a King Cobra Malt Liqour
themed attraction. SFMM would be perfect.
TCKR
deadand...@gmail.com wrote:
> You know, I've been waiting my whole life for a King Cobra Malt Liqour
> themed attraction. SFMM would be perfect.
How about the Olde English "800" Express, or maybe the Swisher Sweet
Swings? The possibilities are endless . . are you listening Shapiro?!
~rich
deadand...@gmail.com
> How about the Olde English "800" Express, or maybe the Swisher Sweet
> Swings? The possibilities are endless . . are you listening Shapiro?!
>
Hurricane Ice is another fantastic bum drink that could be made into a
coaster or flat ride with total ease. Steel Reserve might be missing
out on prime marketing opportunities at Kennywood.
Wolf
"Rob Ascough" <rmas...@readisplay.com> wrote in message
news:YIudnTOBe_JDBD_Z...@comcast.com...
It's going to be easy to work the Paramount Parks into Cedar Fair. They
already look and run just like Cedar Point / Worlds of Fun. PKI is CP South,
but with more trees and less water.
--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf
Wolf
>>
>> The observation tower, the inclined railway, the monorail... Cedar Fair
>> would rip that stuff out. Another amusement park operator might find
>> value
>> in that stuff as secondary attractions.
>
> Yeah, okay, the monorail. How often is the monorail even open? The
> Observation Tower would be closed? Its barely open as is now. Why would
> you anticipate it would close when Cedar Fair runs observation towers
> of their own?
They still run Geauga's monorail, don't they?
Come on -- CP runs *steam trains*. I think they are up to a monorail.
> Let me ask you: Do you think ANY, and I mean ANY amusement operator is
> going to walk into SFMM and take the horsecollars off of Revolution, or
> reprofile Colossus back to its former glory?
Yeah, but Dick Knoebel isn't interested.
>> If Cedar Fair would invest 1/10th the money they invest in unreliable
>> Intamin coasters for Cedar Point in Geauga Lake instead, the park would
>> be
>> in a better position than it is right now. You seriously believe they
>> were
>> so broke that RWB had to be retracked over a period of THREE YEARS? It's
>> because Geauga Lake is the red-headed stepchild of the company, just like
>> every park that isn't Cedar Point. CF will always cater to what they
>> have
>> in Sandusky and feed everyone else stuff long afterwards. The same would
>> be
>> true of they purchased SFMM.
>
> Facts:
>
> 1) RWB's retracking started with the Six Flags regime. If you want to
> blame anyone for not finishing the job the first time, blame Six Flags.
>
> 2) What Intamin coasters has Cedar Fair built since buying Geauga?
> Matter of fact, what coasters have been purchased by CF, period, for
> the chain?
Two B&Ms?
Locoboy
news:1151496923....@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
In my case, I well remember the park during its hey day of
the early 1980s and before, so that's what I'm comparing its
current form to. The current form of Magic Mountain in no
way compares to what it used to be. I know...I shouldn't
compare to what doesn't exist any longer, but with that park
it's hard not to.
The park just has totally lost all of its unique charm. It
used to be a nice, relaxing park with rides that all ages
could enjoy.
deadand...@gmail.com
> They still run Geauga's monorail, don't they?
>
> Come on -- CP runs *steam trains*. I think they are up to a monorail.
Heh.
>
> > Let me ask you: Do you think ANY, and I mean ANY amusement operator is
> > going to walk into SFMM and take the horsecollars off of Revolution, or
> > reprofile Colossus back to its former glory?
>
> Yeah, but Dick Knoebel isn't interested.
Even then, whomever it is will have a hell of a time doing that stuff
in Cali. Less so with Colossus than Revolution.
> Two B&Ms?
Jeez man. I wanted our friend here to answer that, being that its
totally antithetical to his argument. =(
Rob Ascough
news:1151553517....@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jeez man. I wanted our friend here to answer that, being that its
> totally antithetical to his argument. =(
Holy shit. I didn't know that my pie-in-the-sky idea of Busch purchasing
SFMM was some kind of personal insult to you. Christ. Is someone at Cedar
Fair sucking you off or something?
deadand...@gmail.com
> SFMM was some kind of personal insult to you. Christ. Is someone at Cedar
> Fair sucking you off or something?
Why don't we just dream about Holiday World purchasing it, retheming
Superman to some sort of Santa's Sleigh Ride, and maybe building a 9000
ft terrain woodie across the side of the mountain?
The whole thing is stupid, and honestly, it borders on an excuse to
slam Cedar Fair for reasons that I completely don't understand. Well, I
do, because the reasons you gave were ridiculous and pointed purely
because you have some sort of irrational hatred for the one massive
park chain that's not closing down, isn't threatening to close down,
nor has closed down facilities in the present, future, or past. All
this shit about Cedar Fair "ruining" the charm of *SFMM* or somehow
doing damage to *COLOSSUS* or *PSYCLONE*....I mean, come the fuck on.
If anyone should be asked a question, its you. Did Kinzel break up your
marriage or something?
Rob Ascough
<deadand...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151522469.9...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> You're comparing SFMM to Disney. Let me repeat that. Disney. They are
> not going to beat Disney at their own game. No one does that. Not only
> do they have to compete with Disney, but there's Knott's, and to a
> lesser degree, Legoland. SFMM also isn't in Tampa (where its alone as
> the home park) nor is it in a well touristed location like BGW is. Its
> a crowded market there.
When did I compare Six Flags to Disney? All I did was state that Disney is
very successful with a park that features no real thrilling attractions. I
suggested that whoever ends up owning SFMM would be wise to look at Disney
to see what works and what doesn't. Learn how to fucking read.
> Yeah, okay, the monorail. How often is the monorail even open? The
> Observation Tower would be closed? Its barely open as is now. Why would
> you anticipate it would close when Cedar Fair runs observation towers
> of their own?
Cedar Fair has a history of removing classic attractions from the parks
which they purchase. I don't need to create a list for you- I'm sure if you
think about it for five minutes, you'll see that I have a point. Cedar Fair
isn't exactly in the business of preserving what once made their parks
special. They are good at certain things, but not nods to the past.
> Let me ask you: Do you think ANY, and I mean ANY amusement operator is
> going to walk into SFMM and take the horsecollars off of Revolution, or
> reprofile Colossus back to its former glory? Because if you are, you're
> nuts. It ain't happening. It doesn't matter if its Cedar Fair or not.
Why not think that? Paramount removed the OTSRs from their Flight of Fear
coasters. And replacing the track and the trains on Colossus doesn't seem
to be beyond what some park operators would do. Some park operators are
perfectly capable of looking at a ride, seeing what is wrong and making a
few changes to make it better. I'm not talking a return to its former
glory, I'm talking average improvements that would make the ride much better
than it is right now.
> Now, I know its easy to blame Cedar Fair for Hercules sucking, but it
> sucked before CF came in. It had already been sitting there for 3
> years, and was never going to age well under any circumstances. Mean
> Streak is a mistake on virtually everyone's part, but hell, it just
> followed a trend in the industry at the time in building large wood
> coasters. Texas Giant and Rattler are other good examples of that. I
> bet if Cedar Fair had their way, they'd have never built the ride,
> given its low ridership, high maintenance costs, etc.
I never said Cedar Fair was to blame for Hercules being a bad ride. All I
said was that Cedar Fair removed a wood coaster and replaced it with
something other than a wood coaster. Did I blame them for making a bad
decision? No. Did I state an indisputable fact? Yes. Again, learn to
read.
> Besides, all this entails that a private company or Busch would make
> serious efforts to improve both rides by changing their
> structure/changing trains, whereas Cedar Fair wouldn't. Simply put,
> that's a stupid dream, and nothing remotely like reality. I mean, how
> do you screw up Psyclone? Tearing it down and building benches out of
> the structure would be better use of it.
Huh?
> Busch has had all the opportunity in the world to build wood coasters.
> And really, what I'm referring to more than anything are the inane
> safety checks on Gwazi. Its capacity is absolute crap as a result. I
> think its a decent ride, but its nothing mind blowing.
No, you referred to the fact that very few enthusiasts have an appreciation
for Gwazi, suggesting that Busch is anti-wood coaster or something because
they run a lousy example of a wood coaster. Those are your words.
> 1) RWB's retracking started with the Six Flags regime. If you want to
> blame anyone for not finishing the job the first time, blame Six Flags.
No. RWB was supposed to be completed in one or two years. And even if the
Six Flags plan was to do it over three years, Cedar Fair couldn't have done
anything to speed up the project? You mean to tell me a company that big
would have been forced to just sit back and deal if they wanted things to
move more quickly?
> 2) What Intamin coasters has Cedar Fair built since buying Geauga?
> Matter of fact, what coasters have been purchased by CF, period, for
> the chain?
Who the hell is building Cedar Point's new coaster?
> 3) Geauga Lake's gotten improvements in its water park, which is more
> likely to pay dividends than building additional coasters at a cheaper
> cost.
While the rest of the park has more or less suffered. I'm sorry but
repainting Thunderhawk doesn't qualify as a huge improvement.
> 4) Geauga Lake had pitiful attendance under Six Flags, particularly in
> its last year under the SF banner.
And attendance has slipped more and more since then. You'd think that a
company like Cedar Fair would have started to turn the ship around by now.
> 5) Cedar Point is the flagship park. Why would they build record
> breakers in Kansas City?
I never said record-breakers, but a six-year gap between major installations
is a bit hard to fathom when Cedar Fair gets them every year. I realize
Kansas City is a smaller market but it's obvious what park gets all the
attention. That's all I was saying.
> 5A) Speaking of that, you mean to tell me they haven't spent money in
> Knott's? Really? List all the attractions built by Cedar Point at the
> Knotts site, please.
I don't you... you seem to be Cedar Fair's cheerleader... you list them for
me if you want.
Rob Ascough
<deadand...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151554971.7...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> Why don't we just dream about Holiday World purchasing it, retheming
> Superman to some sort of Santa's Sleigh Ride, and maybe building a 9000
> ft terrain woodie across the side of the mountain?
>
> The whole thing is stupid, and honestly, it borders on an excuse to
> slam Cedar Fair for reasons that I completely don't understand. Well, I
> do, because the reasons you gave were ridiculous and pointed purely
> because you have some sort of irrational hatred for the one massive
> park chain that's not closing down, isn't threatening to close down,
> nor has closed down facilities in the present, future, or past. All
> this shit about Cedar Fair "ruining" the charm of *SFMM* or somehow
> doing damage to *COLOSSUS* or *PSYCLONE*....I mean, come the fuck on.
> If anyone should be asked a question, its you. Did Kinzel break up your
> marriage or something?
Dave wondered if some company could buy SFMM and do it justice. I made a
suggestion based upon how I feel. You can agree or disagree with what I
said but stop insinuating I have some personal vendetta against Cedar Fair.
I simply stated what I felt would happen if Cedar Fair purchased the place.
You're starting a fight when there was absolutely nothing to fight about in
the first place. I don't know if I pissed you off on another site (I'm
getting the impression that may be the case) or if you're just looking for
attention, but to be perfectly honest I couldn't care less. You're acting
like a hotheaded fucking idiot and I'm done. I have better things to do
with my time than waste it on petty debates with deaf, ignorant pieces of
shit like yourself that constantly feel the urge to prove themselves right
in order to compensate for some other shortcoming, either mental or
physical.
I'm done... next topic...
Newtrek5
> LMAO!
I can only imagine the fights going on in the boardroom over what to do
with SFMM. I wonder if they sound anything like this...
deadand...@gmail.com
> > not going to beat Disney at their own game. No one does that. Not only
> > do they have to compete with Disney, but there's Knott's, and to a
> > lesser degree, Legoland. SFMM also isn't in Tampa (where its alone as
> > the home park) nor is it in a well touristed location like BGW is. Its
> > a crowded market there.
>
> When did I compare Six Flags to Disney? All I did was state that Disney is
> very successful with a park that features no real thrilling attractions. I
> suggested that whoever ends up owning SFMM would be wise to look at Disney
> to see what works and what doesn't. Learn how to fucking read.
>
The problem is that SFMM in its current state is absolutely nothing
like Disney. It is the polar opposite of Disney, in fact, in every
single facet. The proposal to close down half the attractions is
ludicrous. What do you do? Keep charging people $50 entrance fees while
you tear down the park and spend one quarter/half a billion dollars
building state of the art family friendly rides to replace the $250
million dollars in coasters you just removed? Close the park for a
year, recieve no income, and make those expenditures?
> > Yeah, okay, the monorail. How often is the monorail even open? The
> > Observation Tower would be closed? Its barely open as is now. Why would
> > you anticipate it would close when Cedar Fair runs observation towers
> > of their own?
>
> Cedar Fair has a history of removing classic attractions from the parks
> which they purchase. I don't need to create a list for you- I'm sure if you
> think about it for five minutes, you'll see that I have a point. Cedar Fair
> isn't exactly in the business of preserving what once made their parks
> special. They are good at certain things, but not nods to the past.
>
Cedar Fair is good at one thing that matters; Making money. I know that
people get sad about the Haunted Shack and Cedar Point's log flumes,
but the fact is that their removal paved the way for improvements CF
felt they needed to make. Sucks that Raptor had to be built where a log
flume used to be, but try telling them that they would have been better
off with the flume.
When it comes to places like Dorney and Knotts that saw many of their
more classic attractions removed for newer modern ones...well, tell me,
do you think Dorney's attendance rose at all since 1992? I'd bet it did
by quite a nice margin. If Knotts was making money hand over fist with
their lineup in 1998, Cedar Fair wouldn't have had the option to buy
the park, nor build stuff like Soak City USA (which I guarantee you
makes a mint). Not everywhere can be Knoebel's.
> Why not think that?
Because its dumb? The money it would take to make Psyclone good would
be better spent building a brand new wood coaster from the ground up,
because it would cost roughly as much. Same with Colossus.
> Paramount removed the OTSRs from their Flight of Fear
> coasters.
I'm sorry, which Flight of Fear is in California again?
> Some park operators are
> perfectly capable of looking at a ride, seeing what is wrong and making a
> few changes to make it better. I'm not talking a return to its former
> glory, I'm talking average improvements that would make the ride much better
> than it is right now.
Like? Tell me about these operators that have reconfigured wooden
coasters to improve them beyond merely replacing layers of track. I'd
like to 'em.
> I never said Cedar Fair was to blame for Hercules being a bad ride. All I
> said was that Cedar Fair removed a wood coaster and replaced it with
> something other than a wood coaster. Did I blame them for making a bad
> decision? No. Did I state an indisputable fact? Yes. Again, learn to
> read.
What's wrong with them not replacing it with a wood coaster? Why do
they have to? What makes you believe that the market in PA wanted
another wooden coaster, and that it would be more successful than the
B&M currently sitting on the property? What does this have to do with
Six Flags being terrible at managing theme parks? Tearing out shitty
rides and replacing them with something the general public won't hate
(and in fact, may like) and that runs well is bad?
> Huh?
You spoke of Cedar Fair "mistreating" SFMM's wood coasters. Fact is,
you can't mistreat them. They're shit. Horrible rides that would
honestly be better off being totally scrapped and replaced from the
ground up with something new. Whether that is a wood coaster or not
means dick.
> No, you referred to the fact that very few enthusiasts have an appreciation
> for Gwazi, suggesting that Busch is anti-wood coaster or something because
> they run a lousy example of a wood coaster. Those are your words.
>
They run a mediocre wood coaster and they have inane safety checks.
"Besides, what history with wood coasters does Busch Gardens have?
Gwazi? Gee, sure see a lot of Gwazi love on the net, dontcha? Could you
imagine the ridiculous safety checks on virtually every coaster at
SFMM? "
> > 1) RWB's retracking started with the Six Flags regime. If you want to
> > blame anyone for not finishing the job the first time, blame Six Flags.
>
> No. RWB was supposed to be completed in one or two years. And even if the
> Six Flags plan was to do it over three years, Cedar Fair couldn't have done
> anything to speed up the project? You mean to tell me a company that big
> would have been forced to just sit back and deal if they wanted things to
> move more quickly?
It wasn't supposed to be completed in one year. I can tell you that
because I rode it in 2003 when it was still operated by Six Flags. Six
Flags only retracked the final third of the ride. Cedar Point purchased
the park in Mid-March of 2004, a month and a half from the slotted
opening date. Gee, sure is a lot of time to move forward with a total
retracking project, isn't it?
> > 2) What Intamin coasters has Cedar Fair built since buying Geauga?
> > Matter of fact, what coasters have been purchased by CF, period, for
> > the chain?
>
> Who the hell is building Cedar Point's new coaster?
You mean the first coaster they've built for themselves in 3 years? The
first Intamin they've bought in the same time period?
> > 3) Geauga Lake's gotten improvements in its water park, which is more
> > likely to pay dividends than building additional coasters at a cheaper
> > cost.
>
> While the rest of the park has more or less suffered. I'm sorry but
> repainting Thunderhawk doesn't qualify as a huge improvement.
>
Suffered in what way? I'm sorry that you don't consider water parks an
"improvement". I'm sure most people would beg to differ.
> > 4) Geauga Lake had pitiful attendance under Six Flags, particularly in
> > its last year under the SF banner.
>
> And attendance has slipped more and more since then. You'd think that a
> company like Cedar Fair would have started to turn the ship around by now.
:rolls eyes:...This is the second season they've had total control over
the park and not been working off of the scraps of what was left from
Six Flags. Somehow, they're gonna take a park that was flying towards
failure and right it in that amount of time? That's mildly unrealistic,
to put it mildly. Its gonna be 5 years before Geauga is even remotely
stabilized.
> > 5) Cedar Point is the flagship park. Why would they build record
> > breakers in Kansas City?
>
> I never said record-breakers, but a six-year gap between major installations
> is a bit hard to fathom when Cedar Fair gets them every year. I realize
> Kansas City is a smaller market but it's obvious what park gets all the
> attention. That's all I was saying.
Of course it gets all the attention. Its the flagship. It has higher
attendance by an exponential level. If Cedar Point thought that they
could get a significant return building crap en masse at their smaller
parks, they would. You know who did that sort of thing? Six Flags.
Guess who's barrelling towards bankruptcy? Six Flags. Guess who's
selling parks like Magic Mountain in a desperate attempt to prevent
liquidation of all their assets and a significant loss for the current
management team (who spent millions on SF stock)? Six Flags.
So yes, Cedar Fair does not build giant crap for all their parks every
year. That's because they wish to remain profitable.
> > 5A) Speaking of that, you mean to tell me they haven't spent money in
> > Knott's? Really? List all the attractions built by Cedar Point at the
> > Knotts site, please.
>
> I don't you... you seem to be Cedar Fair's cheerleader... you list them for
> me if you want.
I'd rather you take the time to do some research and come up with an
educated opinion.
deadand...@gmail.com
> suggestion based upon how I feel. You can agree or disagree with what I
> said but stop insinuating I have some personal vendetta against Cedar Fair.
> I simply stated what I felt would happen if Cedar Fair purchased the place.
Your opinion is inane. If you think they can ruin SFMM, you've never
visited, and I doubt you've been on either of their wood coasters/
> You're starting a fight when there was absolutely nothing to fight about in
> the first place. I don't know if I pissed you off on another site (I'm
> getting the impression that may be the case)
As many folks here can tell you, I've been posting here and here alone
for a long, long time. I haven't been on another forum in probably 3
years.
> or if you're just looking for
> attention, but to be perfectly honest I couldn't care less. You're acting
> like a hotheaded fucking idiot and I'm done. I have better things to do
> with my time than waste it on petty debates with deaf, ignorant pieces of
> shit like yourself that constantly feel the urge to prove themselves right
> in order to compensate for some other shortcoming, either mental or
> physical.
Nothing says ignorant other than idiotic statements like "CF would ruin
SFMM's charm" and "Cedar Fair doesn't take care of their smaller
parks".
What's happening now is what was predicted and expected for the last
half decade by myself and a lot of other people on this forum. If you
really believe that Cedar Fair are the bad guys, and that virtually
everyone else is somehow working for you in a special sense, then
there's no real hope continuing this conversation. A dark period is
coming for dry parks in this country, and you should thank CF and
Kennywood for being the only multipark chains that are going to be of
any value to the consumer and enthusiast in a few years.
Rob Ascough
<deadand...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151557228.3...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> Your opinion is inane. If you think they can ruin SFMM, you've never
> visited, and I doubt you've been on either of their wood coasters/
I have visited the park (June 2004) and I have ridden both Psyclone and
Colossus and I still feel that way.
Like I said, I'm done with this topic... or at least I'm done with you.
Don't interpret my future silence as agreement with you or my acceptance of
the points you make, it's just my lack of desire to discuss this with
someone that is taking my simple comments way out of context, which is
clearly what you're doing. It's obvious you have nothing contructive to do
with your time other than pick a fight with me so I'll just practice some
restraint and instead devote my time and energy to people that I find worth
talking to.
mamoosh
> If you think they can ruin SFMM, you've never
> visited, and I doubt you've been on either of their wood coasters/
Thinking that Psyclone and Colossus can be made worse is like thinking
I could be made gayer! lol
deadand...@gmail.com
> I could be made gayer! lol
And with that, you win the thread.
Rob Ascough
news:87mdnc55e4Mz3T7Z...@giganews.com...
>
> It's going to be easy to work the Paramount Parks into Cedar Fair. They
> already look and run just like Cedar Point / Worlds of Fun. PKI is CP
> South, but with more trees and less water.
For now ;)
Rob Ascough
news:1151561337.8...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You're gay? ;)
Shawn Mamros
>What's happening now is what was predicted and expected for the last
>half decade by myself and a lot of other people on this forum. If you
>really believe that Cedar Fair are the bad guys, and that virtually
>everyone else is somehow working for you in a special sense, then
>there's no real hope continuing this conversation. A dark period is
>coming for dry parks in this country, and you should thank CF and
>Kennywood for being the only multipark chains that are going to be of
>any value to the consumer and enthusiast in a few years.
I'd add Busch to that list as well, at least in terms of operations
at existing parks. Unlike the other two, I wouldn't expect Busch
to be adding to their lineup of parks anytime soon, especially not
a place like SFMM (my earlier comments about "Busch Gardens Asia"
were more tongue-in-cheek than serious). Which, I think, brings
it all back around to the beginning of this argument... :-P
-Shawn Mamros
E-mail to: mamros -at- mit dot edu
mamoosh
TeknoScorpion
Actually, you are NOT the gayest man I've ever met...far from it.
Heck, Gator is gayer than you, and he likes the womenses.
Prime
news:ab3bdp5...@boulder.pdi.com:
> "mamoosh" <msul...@ntmllc.com> writes:
>
>> My impression of SFMM:
>>
>> "Help...I'm falling and I can't get up!"
>
> Take it easy. Have a Budweiser. That'll make you feel better. :-)
>
> (I so would love to see Busch Gardens: Wild West, but I'm just
dreaming.
> I still remember loving Spillikin Corners.)
>
> Eric
>
>
>
Spillikin Corners was so cool. A quiet back part of the park with shops
and eateries. Remember the train ride that went around it? And the
trolls!
The character was spit out, the park was allowed to go to hell even while
they spent million$ on new big coasters. I'm as big a fan as the next
coaster person. But a little balance is a good thing. Paint peeling on a
closed sky tower and a monorail that hasn't run in 5 years are a big
embarrassment. Shapiro probably did the math on how much it would take to
spruce up the park and then looked at the six flags debt and realized it
would be better to sell the park and pay down debt. A smart business
move, but I'm bitter about what a great park it use to be and how
thoroughly Six Flags F'd it up. You want a trailer park low life
amusement company - that's Six Flags!
Prime