Age a coaster should be preserved

[surfd...@aol.com]

As enthusiasts, most of us won't like to see any coaster closed/removed at all.

But at what age (if at all) should a coaster be preserved, simply because of its age?

Interested to hear opinions on this.



-"Surf Dance" Chris

[tvdu...@gmail.com]

The age isn't as big to me as ridability, cost of keeping it running, and popularity.

Voyage isn't that old, but it is very good. It should preserved at all costs. Thunder Run (during the last few years of SFKK) could have been demolished for all I cared. I haven't rode it since it got refurbished. If something cost more to maintain then what it gets in riders, if a company wants to close it and sell it or tear it down, their money. The more profitable a ride is, the more options the park will have to expand.

[Thom25]

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 8:39:40 PM UTC-5, tvdu...@gmail.com wrote:
> The age isn't as big to me as ridability, cost of keeping it running, and popularity.
>
> Voyage isn't that old, but it is very good. It should preserved at all costs. Thunder Run (during the last few years of SFKK) could have been demolished for all I cared. I haven't rode it since it got refurbished. If something cost more to maintain then what it gets in riders, if a company wants to close it and sell it or tear it down, their money. The more profitable a ride is, the more options the park will have to expand.

I agree. Outside of the Coney Island Cyclone, I think any coaster could/should be closed. Technically The Wild One at SFA is almost 100 years old, but given all the retrofits, it should be burned to the ground or given some RMC love. Same with Mean Streak.

If a ride can be maintained at a reasonable cost and still be rideable and thrilling, then by all means keep it as long as possible. But as with life, all things do come to an end unfortunately.

[ansley]

Disagree, Wild One is still an excellent coaster, despite all the changes. I also see nothing wrong with Mean Streak, every time we go I always think after riding it that is an ok and solid mid-pack, in no way deserves all the crap that it gets.

[surfd...@aol.com]

So Leap the Dips shouldn't be around forever if at all possible?

[Dave Althoff, Jr.]

surfd...@aol.com wrote:

: On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 8:52:42 PM UTC-5, Thom25 wrote:
: > On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 8:39:40 PM UTC-5, tvdu...@gmail.com wrote:
: > > The age isn't as big to me as ridability, cost of keeping it running,
: > > and popularity.
: > >
: > > Voyage isn't that old, but it is very good. It should preserved at
: > > all costs. Thunder Run (during the last few years of SFKK) could
: > > have been demolished for all I cared. I haven't rode it since it got
: > > refurbished. If something cost more to maintain then what it gets in
: > > riders, if a company wants to close it and sell it or tear it down,
: > > their money. The more profitable a ride is, the more options the
: > > park will have to expand.

: >
: > If a ride can be maintained at a reasonable cost and still be rideable

: > and thrilling, then by all means keep it as long as possible. But as
: > with life, all things do come to an end unfortunately.
:
: So Leap the Dips shouldn't be around forever if at all possible?

I think the question needs to take into consideration all of the factors
surrounding the ride. Leap the Dips has become a historically significant
coaster, partly because Boyertown USA couldn't afford to knock it down,
partly because Lakemont saw fit to restore it instead of knocking it down.
At one time, it was one of a hundred or more just like it, but now it's the
only one left. But how should one decide which rides get to stay and which
ones go?

How about another example. A couple of years ago, Cedar Point mercilessly
destroyed their Wildcat. It wasn't the only Wildcat around. Wildcat was a
production model coaster. But that one was a particularly painful loss
because while it was not the only Schwarzkopf Wildcat still operating, it
was probably the one that ran the best, had the most cars still on it, and
was the best example of its kind in operation. To me, for Martin's Fantasy
Island to take down their Wildcat barely registered as an event, but for
Cedar Point to take theirs out was a tragic loss.

I think that kind of gets to the Leap the Dips question. Both Leap the Dips
and Skyliner are particularly nice coasters, and to me, worthy of
preservation. But there are other rides out there that are not so
noteworthy, not so special, and not so remarkable.

For me, age is really not what makes a ride special, although old rides can
be special. The question is, if we lose a ride, apart from the immediate
nostalgia for the people who rode it a lot, are we losing anything
noteworthy or remarkable?

Would anybody cry over the loss of the Great America Grizzly? Texas Giant?
Mean Streak? Rattler? Riverside Cyclone? T-Clone? P-Clone? G-Clone?

Heck, when they ripped down the P-Clone, that was pretty much 'good
riddance'....

--Dave Althoff, Jr.
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/XXXXX\ /XXX\ /XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
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NEW! When emailing this account, include the 'canonical magic word' in
the body of your message for a quicker response.

[surfd...@aol.com]

Right. But if Psyclone had been 100 years old, few would be saying good riddance.... Don't you think?

[westernpa...@gmail.com]

On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 7:07:49 AM UTC-5, surfd...@aol.com wrote:
> Right. But if Psyclone had been 100 years old, few would be saying good riddance.... Don't you think?

If I follow the purpose of the thread...I would say that when the age of the coaster represents something no longer being produced it is worthy of being considered for keeping. Let me give an example...

I think the rollercoaster at Joyland in Wichita Kansas would have been (perhaps still is) worthy of keeping. Why...because they had the last remaining PTC Trains of their kind still in operation. Just thinking out loud based on the actual question.

[Dave Althoff, Jr.]

surfd...@aol.com wrote:
: Right. But if Psyclone had been 100 years old, few would be saying good

: riddance.... Don't you think?

Kind of depends. Are the G-Clone, Coney Cyclone and Viper still operating?

By the same token, the Coney Island Wildcat is gone, but we've got two
Grizzlies and a Wild Beast. If you have to choose between the Grizzly in
Virginia and the Grizzly in California, which one is more worthy of saving?

How about a less extreme example: Thunder Run, which we almost lost, or
either of the Hurlers? Phoenix or Wolverine Wildcat?

How about within a single park: do we save Wolverine Wildcat, or Shivering
Timbers?

[David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply]

On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 06:15:09 +0000 (UTC), "Dave Althoff, Jr."
<rid...@davealthoff.com> wrote:

>surfd...@aol.com wrote:
>: Right. But if Psyclone had been 100 years old, few would be saying good
>: riddance.... Don't you think?
>
>Kind of depends. Are the G-Clone, Coney Cyclone and Viper still operating?
>
>By the same token, the Coney Island Wildcat is gone, but we've got two
>Grizzlies and a Wild Beast. If you have to choose between the Grizzly in
>Virginia and the Grizzly in California, which one is more worthy of saving?
>
>How about a less extreme example: Thunder Run, which we almost lost, or
>either of the Hurlers? Phoenix or Wolverine Wildcat?
>
>How about within a single park: do we save Wolverine Wildcat, or Shivering
>Timbers?

Honestly, it's a fairly moot point, I think.

There really have only been a very few examples in recent years of
successful coaster preservation. And most of those (like Zippin' Pippin)
are effectively rebuilds.

These are multi-million dollar machines owned by multi-million (and in some
cases billion) dollar companies There are real limits to how much we can
impact their decisions.

All we can really do is let parks know when a woodie becomes available and
hope they're interested. And maybe give them some free press and social
media attention to the project.



"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured,
the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us
all irrevocably." -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
"The Drumhead", _Star Trek: The Next Generation_

[thekma...@gmail.com]

David Althoff, Jr. wrote: "... Riverside Cyclone? T-Clone? P-Clone? G-Clone? "

And thus began....

The 'Clone wars!

:D

[tyl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 3:32:08 PM UTC-5, David H.--REMOVE STOPSPAM to reply wrote:

> There really have only been a very few examples in recent years of
> successful coaster preservation. And most of those (like Zippin' Pippin)
> are effectively rebuilds.
>

In what way was ZP not a new ride? It's a clone, not a rebuild.

Nothing from the original ride was reused other than the plans.

[westernpa...@gmail.com]

>
> Nothing from the original ride was reused other than the plans.

AND the name...lol

[David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply]

That was basically what I meant. The same could be said of Knoebels'
Twister.

There are very few recent examples of successful wood coaster preservation.

[westernpa...@gmail.com]

>
> That was basically what I meant. The same could be said of Knoebels'
> Twister.
>

I have not been on the new ZP, but I disagree about Knoebels' Twister as it is a smaller scale version of Mr. Twister...not a clone.

[surfd...@aol.com]

What was the last wood coaster to be relocated (not cloned like ZP)? Was it the Starliner when it was relocated to Cypress Gardens in 2007?

[Dave Althoff, Jr.]

"David H.--REMOVE \"STOPSPAM\" to reply" <davidhhh...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

: On Wed, 4 Mar 2015 13:38:09 -0800 (PST), tyl...@gmail.com wrote:
:
: >On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 3:32:08 PM UTC-5, David H.--REMOVE STOPSPAM to reply wrote:
: >
: >> There really have only been a very few examples in recent years of
: >> successful coaster preservation. And most of those (like Zippin' Pippin)
: >> are effectively rebuilds.
: >>
: >
: >In what way was ZP not a new ride? It's a clone, not a rebuild.
: >
: >Nothing from the original ride was reused other than the plans.
:
: That was basically what I meant. The same could be said of Knoebels'
: Twister.
:
: There are very few recent examples of successful wood coaster preservation.

I submit that Zippin' Pippin is at least a form of preservation in that the
ride was essentially duplicated in its new home. I haven't ridden either
version, so I can't tell you how faithful that reproduction was. But it's
not that different from many relocation efforts, where the rebuilt ride is
rebuilt with a ton of new structure and an entirely new track. Cypress
Gardens' (now dismantled) Starliner comes to mind.

By comparison, Twister was, in my opinion, a preservation effort in name
only. It is an entirely new design which was, at best, heavily influenced
by the original. Perhaps moreso than the one at the "new" Elitch Gardens,
which merely has a similar footprint to the original.

--Dave Althoff, Jr

[Dave Althoff, Jr.]

surfd...@aol.com wrote:
: What was the last wood coaster to be relocated (not cloned like ZP)? Was

: it the Starliner when it was relocated to Cypress Gardens in 2007?

The Little Dipper (Kiddieland -> Six Flags Great America) was moved in
2010, and that's the last one I can think of. RCDB seems to concur.

RCDB also mentions the Starliner being built for 2015. Is that the Miracle
Strip/Cypress Gardens ride being reassembled again, or is that a new
coaster?

[surfd...@aol.com]

Ah yeah, I forgot about the Little Dipper.

The new Starliner will be 100% new and not a rebuild, I believe.

[westernpa...@gmail.com]

>
> By comparison, Twister was, in my opinion, a preservation effort in name
> only. It is an entirely new design which was, at best, heavily influenced
> by the original. Perhaps moreso than the one at the "new" Elitch Gardens,
> which merely has a similar footprint to the original.
>
> --Dave Althoff, Jr

Dave...for the most part I agree. However, I think what you have in Twister (IMHO) is essentially the same layout as Mr. Twister, but scaled differently. Obviously this makes it an entirely different ride, but the intent (as I understood from Dick) would have been to move Mr. Twister if it would have fit, but it was too big...so they essentially built a more compact layout/version of the same ride. Having ridden Mr. Twister...the layout is essentially the same, just much more compact...I am not saying it is to scale, but I am sure some of you engineering types can comment.

I have heard from several people on various occasions that rides change even when they keep the same blueprints. I am sure some of this could be type of wood, trains, age, etc. I have been told that the Rocket was never as good as the Phoenix has been. In the same way...people who have ridden both ZP's say the newer version is better. Having only ridden it in Memphis...I cannot comment. Some of this could simply have to do with it being "new" and not as old as it was in Memphis. Personally, I thought the ride was pretty good in Memphis and I certainly liked the layout.

[tyl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 7:25:25 AM UTC-5, westernpa...@gmail.com wrote:

> I have been told that the Rocket was never as good as the Phoenix has been.

Didn't the Rocket have a trim brake on the 2nd turnaround?

[dr. m]

Here's what bothers a young naive person like myself. Amusement parks are becoming more and more corporate, if they haven't already become as "corporate" as possible. In big corporations, simply remaining profitable isn't enough. Corporations have to demonstrate constant growth, that's how they operate. You can't just make money, you have to make MORE money than you made before, all the time, more and more money. This is what drives parks to neglect or replace perfectly good rides, because something just slightly more marketable can go in its place.

Ideally, historically speaking, it would be best to have the best examples of every type of ride from each decade preserved. And why not? Every decade has seen its share of good rides, and a ride that was good before should still be good now. When something once valued is the last of its kind, that automatically makes it special and important.

But corporations operating the way they do, needing to see ever expanding profits, will always stand in the way of that. I mean we can debate all we like whether every single idea trotted out of the Intamin or Arrow brain pool is really worth preserving, what's important and what isn't, but it almost seems irrelevant, because no corporation will ever see it our way, no corporation sees any kind of value outside dollars and cents. If there's any slack in the works at all, any opportunity to make just a little more money, sooner or later, out it goes. Capitalism.

[westernpa...@gmail.com]

>
> Ideally, historically speaking, it would be best to have the best examples of every type of ride from each decade preserved. And why not? Every decade has seen its share of good rides, and a ride that was good before should still be good now. When something once valued is the last of its kind, that automatically makes it special and important.

I like that idea. A theme park that represents each decade. 60's area, 70's area, etc.

[Derek Gee]

"Dave Althoff, Jr." <rid...@davealthoff.com> wrote in message
news:mcosks$dk5$1...@dont-email.me...

> How about another example. A couple of years ago, Cedar Point mercilessly
> destroyed their Wildcat. It wasn't the only Wildcat around. Wildcat was a
> production model coaster. But that one was a particularly painful loss
> because while it was not the only Schwarzkopf Wildcat still operating, it
> was probably the one that ran the best, had the most cars still on it, and
> was the best example of its kind in operation. To me, for Martin's Fantasy
> Island to take down their Wildcat barely registered as an event, but for
> Cedar Point to take theirs out was a tragic loss.

I agree Dave! It was particularly agonizing to me because Cedar Point made
no attempt to sell it or relocate it to another park in the Cedar Fair
chain. (Same with Disaster Transport.)

Derek

[westernpa...@gmail.com]

>
> I agree Dave! It was particularly agonizing to me because Cedar Point made
> no attempt to sell it or relocate it to another park in the Cedar Fair
> chain. (Same with Disaster Transport.)
>
> Derek

And all of Geauga Lake

[David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply]

On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 00:06:58 -0800 (PST), "dr. m" <timoth...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Here's what bothers a young naive person like myself. Amusement parks are becoming more and more corporate, if they haven't already become as "corporate" as possible. In big corporations, simply remaining profitable isn't enough. Corporations have to demonstrate constant growth, that's how they operate. You can't just make money, you have to make MORE money than you made before, all the time, more and more money. This is what drives parks to neglect or replace perfectly good rides, because something just slightly more marketable can go in its place.
>
>Ideally, historically speaking, it would be best to have the best examples of every type of ride from each decade preserved. And why not? Every decade has seen its share of good rides, and a ride that was good before should still be good now. When something once valued is the last of its kind, that automatically makes it special and important.
>
>But corporations operating the way they do, needing to see ever expanding profits, will always stand in the way of that. I mean we can debate all we like whether every single idea trotted out of the Intamin or Arrow brain pool is really worth preserving, what's important and what isn't, but it almost seems irrelevant, because no corporation will ever see it our way, no corporation sees any kind of value outside dollars and cents. If there's any slack in the works at all, any opportunity to make just a little more money, sooner or later, out it goes. Capitalism.

Welcome to America!

Is there really any industry that hasn't been decimated by this attitude?

[Heather Kendrick]

In article <bb8de17f-f6d7-4380...@googlegroups.com>,

"dr. m" <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's what bothers a young naive person like myself. Amusement parks are
> becoming more and more corporate, if they haven't already become as
> "corporate" as possible. In big corporations, simply remaining profitable
> isn't enough. Corporations have to demonstrate constant growth, that's how
> they operate. You can't just make money, you have to make MORE money than you
> made before, all the time, more and more money.

It's an important distinction that you're pointing to here. Something
can be profitable without being maximally profitable. I think everyone
can agree that it's desirable and probably necessary for a business to
be profitable. I strongly question whether it is necessary or desirable
for businesses to to be maximally profitable. Arguments in this hobby
often involve conflation of the two. Person A criticizes Park X for
doing something obnoxious but (presumably) profitable, and Person B
accuses Person A of thinking Park X should be unprofitable, as though
"not as profitable" is equivalent to "unprofitable."

But as the dreary facts stand, you're correct. O tempora, o mores.
--
Heather, the Carousel Rabbit

[David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply]

But ultimately, I think that this is the major difference between family
run and corporate run parks. (And pretty much all businesses.)

ALL American corporations have to become MORE AND MORE profitable. That's
what the almighty investors want.

A family owned park generally needs to make enough money to keep the family
doing well. Yes, they want more money, but they're not nickel and diming
every single aspect of the business the way that large corporations do.

[dr. m]

But on the other hand, I like rides like Millenium Force, and is that aggressive corporate attitude necessary for rides on that scale to exist? Assuming it is, that's why I like having a choice between cozy family parks and big corporate parks. But the fear of course is that choice is slowly disappearing, that we're heading down a winner-takes-all path where if you can't compete with the big boys, prepare to be bought by them. Maybe with the economy continuing to fall to ruin that expansionist mentality will finally end and we'll see a better balance, maybe some corporate parks will even revert back to family-run status. Who knows?

I don't mind having some corporate parks, but my whole thing is like, fine, gouge me for parking and food, plaster advertising everywhere, have every ride op remind me about your season pass deal, fine, but in return I expect everything that crosses my eyeballs to be clean and presentable, the rides to be well-maintaned, and the employees to be well trained and have good attitudes. Obviously, this is rarely the case. Of the parks I've visited, Cedar Point remains the one shining example of what I would consider "corporate done right".

[ansley]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 8:32:27 AM UTC, dr. m wrote:
> But on the other hand, I like rides like Millenium Force, and is that aggressive corporate attitude necessary for rides on that scale to exist? Assuming it is, that's why I like having a choice between cozy family parks and big corporate parks. But the fear of course is that choice is slowly disappearing, that we're heading down a winner-takes-all path where if you can't compete with the big boys, prepare to be bought by them. Maybe with the economy continuing to fall to ruin that expansionist mentality will finally end and we'll see a better balance, maybe some corporate parks will even revert back to family-run status. Who knows?
>
> I don't mind having some corporate parks, but my whole thing is like, fine, gouge me for parking and food, plaster advertising everywhere, have every ride op remind me about your season pass deal, fine, but in return I expect everything that crosses my eyeballs to be clean and presentable, the rides to be well-maintaned, and the employees to be well trained and have good attitudes. Obviously, this is rarely the case. Of the parks I've visited, Cedar Point remains the one shining example of what I would consider "corporate done right".

I disagree about CP being corporate done right. I've experienced some very bad customer service and extreme TPM at CP. IMHO they are slightly better then most other large theme parks, but sometimes much worse as well. Some of the things where I've seen CP fall flat are cleanliness, food quality, coaster and ride operations, in some cases poor policies. Re-ride policies suck. They have some very bad restraints on their coasters, worse than similar rides at other parks. They at times, can be very nazi-like and rude. Overall they are not horrible, probably above average but certainly not corporate done right. I used to think that the Busch parks were much better, but they've gone downhill too. Probably my two favorite large parks in terms of overall quality of guest experience would be Dollywood and Hersheypark. I'm excluding the Disney/Universal/Sea World parks in the tourist area and also excluding international parks. Most large international parks put the US parks to shame....

Ted

[ldnayman]

On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 2:36:27 AM UTC-4, Heather Kendrick wrote:
>
>
> It's an important distinction that you're pointing to here. Something
> can be profitable without being maximally profitable.

Aren't you a pinball fan? The exact same thing happened to Williams, the world's greatest pinball manufacturer in the 1980s and 1990s. Nobody else was close and those games are still the best ever made.

Williams pinball division was profitable...just not enough. So they hid all of their losses in paper in the pinball division and shuttered it, so they could make more money with their gaming (gambling/slot machine) division.

They are a publicly held company, and that's how it had to be. When it comes to corporate America this will never, ever change. It's all about maximizing profits and that's how it always will be.

[William December Starr]

In article <1c5914e8-5284-454e...@googlegroups.com>,

ldnayman <tixm...@gmail.com> said:

> They are a publicly held company, and that's how it had to be.
> When it comes to corporate America this will never, ever change.
> It's all about maximizing profits and that's how it always will
> be.

Well, technically it's all about maximizing "How much money can I
make flow into _my_ pocket?", but the effect is generally the same.

-- wds

[Heather Kendrick]

In article <1c5914e8-5284-454e...@googlegroups.com>,

ldnayman <tixm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 2:36:27 AM UTC-4, Heather Kendrick wrote:
> >
> >
> > It's an important distinction that you're pointing to here. Something
> > can be profitable without being maximally profitable.
>
>
> Aren't you a pinball fan? The exact same thing happened to Williams, the
> world's greatest pinball manufacturer in the 1980s and 1990s. Nobody else was
> close and those games are still the best ever made.

I am. I infected my husband with roller coaster enthusiasm and he
transmitted the pinball bug to me...

> They are a publicly held company, and that's how it had to be. When it comes
> to corporate America this will never, ever change. It's all about maximizing
> profits and that's how it always will be.

...I'm also an ethicist by profession (really), and one of the
fundamental distinctions of ethics is the difference between "this is
how things are" and "this is how things should be." I don't have to
endorse things just because they're common or even apparently
intractable.

[richard....@gmail.com]

On Friday, 6 March 2015 12:14:29 UTC, surfd...@aol.com wrote:

> Ah yeah, I forgot about the Little Dipper.
> The new Starliner will be 100% new and not a rebuild, I believe.

It will be.

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, though; are wood coasters really that old? Isn't every bit of lumber replaced every few years?

Case in point, the Scenic at Dreamland. Presuming of course that it opens later this year as planned; this ride is 100% new, with none of the original track or trains remaining.

-
www.themeparks.ie

[surfd...@aol.com]

As with anything old that needs maintaining, eventually none or almost none of the original is left. I doubt any material from the original Leap the Dips is part of the current ride. But it happens (usually) a bit at a time, so to me that makes it continuously old.

However, if a coaster was completely rebuilt all at once (like Space Mountain at Disneyland about 10 years ago), it's a new ride. I count SM as 2 different credits. It's the same as if Hersheypark replaced Sidewinder with a new boomerang and called it Sidewinder.

If this is what's happening to the Scenic coaster (im not familiar wth the details of this project offhand), then I would say the same applies there.

I will count the Starliner as a new credit when it opens. I only rode the original at Cypress Gardens, but would've not counted it again had I rode it at MS originally. When I rode at CG, it was obvious that most of the wood there was not new.

[GodsOnSafari]

> > They are a publicly held company, and that's how it had to be. When it comes
> > to corporate America this will never, ever change. It's all about maximizing
> > profits and that's how it always will be.
>
> ...I'm also an ethicist by profession (really), and one of the
> fundamental distinctions of ethics is the difference between "this is
> how things are" and "this is how things should be." I don't have to
> endorse things just because they're common or even apparently
> intractable.
>

Exactly my opinion. I'm not a fan of this stuff so that I can cheer rides turning to crap for the benefit of this quarter's profit margin. There's no team sport here. SMDH when people basically turn apologist in order to look intelligent on the internet.

[dr. m]

I totally agree! This is one of the many reasons I'm so glad I'm no longer on a certain forum which will not be named, so I don't have to see as much of this. Person A: "This really shitty thing the park did is really shitty" Person B: "Yeah but it's so they can make money which they have every right to do, therefor I am more knowledgeable, wiser, and cunning than you. I WIN HA!"

Heather, not to derail the conversation but that's very interesting to me that you're an ethicist, I've never met one before. Two questions: 1. What do you actually do, like are you a consultant for companies or do you teach at a college etc. 2. Do you have any really amazing books you would recommend as an introduction to the topic?

[GodsOnSafari]

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 2:31:12 PM UTC-4, dr. m wrote:
> On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 9:42:53 AM UTC-4, GodsOnSafari wrote:
> > > > They are a publicly held company, and that's how it had to be. When it comes
> > > > to corporate America this will never, ever change. It's all about maximizing
> > > > profits and that's how it always will be.
> > >
> > > ...I'm also an ethicist by profession (really), and one of the
> > > fundamental distinctions of ethics is the difference between "this is
> > > how things are" and "this is how things should be." I don't have to
> > > endorse things just because they're common or even apparently
> > > intractable.
> > >
> >
> > Exactly my opinion. I'm not a fan of this stuff so that I can cheer rides turning to crap for the benefit of this quarter's profit margin. There's no team sport here. SMDH when people basically turn apologist in order to look intelligent on the internet.
>
> I totally agree! This is one of the many reasons I'm so glad I'm no longer on a certain forum which will not be named, so I don't have to see as much of this. Person A: "This really shitty thing the park did is really shitty" Person B: "Yeah but it's so they can make money which they have every right to do, therefor I am more knowledgeable, wiser, and cunning than you. I WIN HA!"

LOL no doubt. Like we haven't figured out the reason the maintenance was deferred was to save a few bucks. Yet somehow, the places that cost cut keep running into problems in the theme park industry while the ones that spend money on their infrastructure end up being the ones that succeed and grow. Funny how that works, huh?

[tyl...@gmail.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[Heather Kendrick]

In article <70be4eed-3565-4903...@googlegroups.com>,

"dr. m" <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Heather, not to derail the conversation but that's very interesting to me
> that you're an ethicist, I've never met one before. Two questions: 1. What do
> you actually do, like are you a consultant for companies or do you teach at a
> college etc. 2. Do you have any really amazing books you would recommend as
> an introduction to the topic?

I teach philosophy at a university. When I say I'm an ethicist, I mean
that my particular specialization within philosophy is ethics (ethics is
one of the main subfields of philosophy).

I can't promise "really amazing," but if you want to learn some of the
basic concepts, principles, and controversies of ethics, I can recommend
a book called "The Elements of Moral Philosophy" by James Rachels.
Older editions of it are usually available quite cheaply.

[Heather Kendrick]

In article <6f637852-ae3f-4cbf...@googlegroups.com>,

richard....@gmail.com wrote:

> Playing devil's advocate for a minute, though; are wood coasters really that
> old? Isn't every bit of lumber replaced every few years?

How many of the original cells do you have in your body?

I like to use various roller coaster examples in introducing identity
problems when I teach them in philosophy classes. It's more fun than
talking about the Ship of Theseus.

[William December Starr]

In article <e67002a5-3501-438f...@googlegroups.com>,

GodsOnSafari <godson...@gmail.com> said:

> Exactly my opinion. I'm not a fan of this stuff so that I can
> cheer rides turning to crap for the benefit of this quarter's
> profit margin. There's no team sport here. SMDH when people
> basically turn apologist in order to look intelligent on the
> internet.

SMDH? (So Much, Didn't Hear? Nah, probably not.)

-- wds

[GodsOnSafari]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=smdh

[William December Starr]

In article <bunnyhugger-CF19...@news.individual.net>,

Heather Kendrick <bunny...@ameritech.net> said:

> I like to use various roller coaster examples in introducing
> identity problems when I teach them in philosophy classes. It's
> more fun than talking about the Ship of Theseus.

Or your grandfather's axe? (You know: replaced the head, replaced
the handle, but it's still Grandpa's axe.)

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <7b8b4920-1e35-4831...@googlegroups.com>,
GodsOnSafari <godson...@gmail.com> said:

> William December Starr wrote:
>
>> SMDH? (So Much, Didn't Hear? Nah, probably not.)
>
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=smdh

Yeah, oops. I meant to google-search it, but at the command line my
stupid fingers typed in the alias for wikipedia-search instead and
that didn't help at all.

-- wds

[dr. m]

^Are you using Pentadactyl? Or are there other browsers that use a "command line"

[William December Starr]

In article <94867dae-d5ab-4d8a...@googlegroups.com>,

"dr. m" <timoth...@gmail.com> said:

>> Yeah, oops. I meant to google-search it, but at the command line
>> my stupid fingers typed in the alias for wikipedia-search instead
>> and that didn't help at all.
>

> ^Are you using Pentadactyl? Or are there other browsers that use a
> "command line"

No, I'm talking about the Unix command line, where I enter short
commands ('gs' or 'wk') to start up the Lynx browser and open up a
custom-designed web page I have for entering search parameters into
either Google in general or Google limited to the Wikipedia domain.

Unfortunately those two pages look at lot alike (they're essentially
the same; one of them just has en.wikipedia.org hardwired into it),
so if I have a brain cramp and call up the wrong one I'm not likely
to notice...

-- wds

[Derek Gee]

<surfd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:27dad587-61e9-4ff6...@googlegroups.com...

>As with anything old that needs maintaining, eventually none or almost none
>of the >original is left. I doubt any material from the original Leap the
>Dips is part of the current >ride.

Incorrect. According to the video documentary the park produced around
1999, all of the original upright lumber was found to be in excellent shape.
The E. Joy Morris company had waterproofed it by sealing it in ten coats of
paint and it was old-growth hardwood. All the horizontal lumber was
replaced as I recall.

Derek

[westernpa...@gmail.com]

>
> Incorrect. According to the video documentary the park produced around
> 1999, all of the original upright lumber was found to be in excellent shape.
> The E. Joy Morris company had waterproofed it by sealing it in ten coats of
> paint and it was old-growth hardwood. All the horizontal lumber was
> replaced as I recall.
>
> Derek

Thanks for the well informed response Derek...

[Dave Althoff, Jr.]

William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
: In article <94867dae-d5ab-4d8a...@googlegroups.com>,

: "dr. m" <timoth...@gmail.com> said:
:
: >> Yeah, oops. I meant to google-search it, but at the command line
: >> my stupid fingers typed in the alias for wikipedia-search instead
: >> and that didn't help at all.
: >
: > ^Are you using Pentadactyl? Or are there other browsers that use a
: > "command line"
:
: No, I'm talking about the Unix command line, where I enter short
: commands ('gs' or 'wk') to start up the Lynx browser and open up a
: custom-designed web page I have for entering search parameters into
: either Google in general or Google limited to the Wikipedia domain.

I'm just curious...what news reader are you using? And do you have any
suggestions for useful scripts like this? (It honestly had not occurred to
me to set up a google search script...generally I just run Safarin in
another window)

(I'm using rtin on OS-X)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.
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