Re: SFGAdv 2006: El Toro

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Benoit De Groote

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:19:04 AM9/28/05
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Don Flint

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Sep 28, 2005, 9:01:43 AM9/28/05
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El Toro: Ejecting riders into 2006!

haunt...@yahoo.com

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Sep 28, 2005, 9:41:16 AM9/28/05
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According to the fact sheet, the coaster will have two, 6 car trains
seating 36 people per train....first 3 seater cars we've seen in a long
while!

Rob Ascough

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Sep 28, 2005, 10:09:10 AM9/28/05
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<haunt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127914875.9...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> According to the fact sheet, the coaster will have two, 6 car trains
> seating 36 people per train....first 3 seater cars we've seen in a long
> while!

Except for Intamin wood coasters that seem to use three-bench cars
exclusively! The rolling stock looks identical to that used on Balder and
Colossos.


coasterfanatic

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Sep 28, 2005, 11:51:29 AM9/28/05
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Timberhawk has three bench trains.

Paul Drabek

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Sep 28, 2005, 2:34:39 PM9/28/05
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So it's a really tall coaster with not enough track for it's height.
Typical TPM.

Have Fun

Paul Drabek
Raven...@Negative-g.com
Negative-g: www.Negative-g.com
Read My Blog "It's All Downhill From Here" at www.negative-g.com/downhill/

Proud Poster On Rec.Roller-Coaster Since September 27, 1996

Ricky Summersett

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Sep 28, 2005, 2:48:35 PM9/28/05
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On 28 Sep 2005 08:51:29 -0700, "coasterfanatic"
<coaster...@aol.com> wrote:

>Timberhawk has three bench trains.

I believe those are fairly old 3 benchers.
I really don't like the name "Timberhawk." It will always be "Coaster"
to me just like Tsunami will never be "J2" to me and I haven't even
ridden it.

Ricky

- Name above all names -
Jesus

Rob Ascough

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Sep 28, 2005, 3:12:19 PM9/28/05
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"Ricky Summersett" <jesusi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:alllj19ipssu3va4m...@4ax.com...

> On 28 Sep 2005 08:51:29 -0700, "coasterfanatic"
> <coaster...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Timberhawk has three bench trains.
>
> I believe those are fairly old 3 benchers.
> I really don't like the name "Timberhawk." It will always be "Coaster"
> to me just like Tsunami will never be "J2" to me and I haven't even
> ridden it.

I think he was referring to Timberhawk at Enchanted Village in Washington,
not Thunderhawk at Dorney. Timberhawk was built by S&S in 2003 and features
three-bench PTC cars, albeit with ratcheting lap bars.


Rob Ascough

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Sep 28, 2005, 3:13:28 PM9/28/05
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"Paul Drabek" <Raven...@Negative-G.com> wrote in message
news:ogolj112140ic28ih...@4ax.com...

> So it's a really tall coaster with not enough track for it's height.
> Typical TPM.

But still a lot more than Kingda Krap could ever dream of being!

I wonder if Scooby will ride El Toro? Maybe these Intamin prefabs don't
give splinters like the old-fashioned wood coasters do?


David H.--REMOVE STOPSPAM to reply

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Sep 28, 2005, 3:49:51 PM9/28/05
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On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:34:39 -0500, Paul Drabek
<Raven...@Negative-G.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:19:04 +0200, "Benoit De Groote"
><benoitd...@telenet.be> wrote:
>
>>More info:
>>
>>http://www.sixflags.com/parks/greatadventure/ParkPress/092805NewCapLeadRelease.html
>>
>>http://www.sixflags.com/parks/greatadventure/parkpress/092805eltorofactsheet.html
>>http://www.sixflags.com/parks/greatadventure/rides/eltoro.html
>>
>>
>
>
>So it's a really tall coaster with not enough track for it's height.
>Typical TPM.
>

You know, I was thinking along similar lines. Why build a nice, tall
coaster like that, then have it stop short on the brakes with so much
potential energy left. Sure, I expect that from the rocket coasters. But
for a woodie, I'd have hoped for a lot more. After all, if you're going to
spend THAT much on a big, tall, fast coaster, then why mot make it also a
LONG coaster so that people get a nice, long ride after waiting so long for
it!

That said, it will be really interesting to see how this goes over with the
GP. Will they even care about a big new woodie, in the shadow of the
tallest coaster currently in the world?

I guess time will tell.

David H, davi...@STOPSPAMbellatlantic.net, Boston, MA
PLEASE remove "STOPSPAM" from my address when replying via e-mail.

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by
the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree
in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support
him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not
to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he
fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is
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anyone else."
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Rob Ascough

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Sep 28, 2005, 4:12:39 PM9/28/05
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"David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply" <davidhhh...@bellatlantic.net>
wrote in message news:foslj1582npsaa2db...@4ax.com...

> That said, it will be really interesting to see how this goes over with
> the
> GP. Will they even care about a big new woodie, in the shadow of the
> tallest coaster currently in the world?

I'm guessing that since the chances of that "tallest coaster" operating on a
regular basis are slim, they will care an awful lot about El Toro.


Paul Drabek

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Sep 28, 2005, 4:49:12 PM9/28/05
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On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:49:51 GMT, davidhhh...@bellatlantic.net
(David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply) wrote:


>>
>>So it's a really tall coaster with not enough track for it's height.
>>Typical TPM.
>>
>You know, I was thinking along similar lines. Why build a nice, tall
>coaster like that, then have it stop short on the brakes with so much
>potential energy left.

Comparing El Torro it's drop is going to be almost 60 feet taller than
The Legend. The Legend appropriately uses up it's potential energy
and ends strong. El Torro is going to have a third more power than
The Legend due to its lift and just 10% more track. A rule should be
if you're going to build taller then you have to build longer as well.

Newtrek5

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Sep 28, 2005, 6:09:43 PM9/28/05
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All of Intamins wooden track coasters have short track lengths for
their size. I wonder if they're more expensive than another company. I
also have to wonder if those trains are capable of holding intense
speed all the way through their curcuits on this particular type of
track. I have heard reports that despite Collossos's massive size, that
it doesn't end very strong, and crawls around the final helix.

Just things to consider...

Coastin Steve

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Sep 28, 2005, 7:36:12 PM9/28/05
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Paul D wrote;

Comparing El Torro it's drop is going to be almost 60 feet taller than
The Legend. The Legend appropriately uses up it's potential energy and
ends strong. El Torro is going to have a third more power than The
Legend due to its lift and just 10% more track. A rule should be if
you're going to build taller then you have to build longer as well.

************************************rrc

"Who?" determined that the Legend "appropriately uses up it's
potential energy"
<just curious>

"A rule should be...." WTF are you talking about ??
Since when is there ANY rules as far as building coasters go ?
(w/ the exception of G force max's for safety reasons )
I'm sittting here shaking my head in disbelief that your saying a
coaster with 4400 ft of track
(and not as much wasted in the lift hill ) is too short.
Why did you choose the Legend to compare it with ? If you do that
then HW's Raven shouldn't have been built. Now there's a coaster
that's way tooo short.
( it's drop is only 6ft shorter and it's track lenth is well over
1000 ft shorter according to rcdb)

Oh that's right, it's Six Flags, and we all know they can't do
anything right according to many who post to this group 8-(

And where do you get that El Toro will have 30% more power ? You
better check your physics books my friend. Lift height is potential
energy, not power. Power would more appropriately be related to speed
/ momentum......
El Toro 70 mph Legend 58 mph
So sorry, 12 mph doesn't translate to 30% more approx 20 %

You know what I think ? I think your just jealous because El Toro
is going to steal the Voyage's steepest drop record before it even has a
chance to claim it. ( by a good bit, but I suppose it's not steep
enough either <g> )

The F'n coaster isn't even built yet and already people are
complaining. Talk about dealing with a stacked deck. 8-(

Coastin Steve

http://community.webtv.net/Coastin_Steve/CoastinStevesHome

The Mak

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:04:17 PM9/28/05
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Coasti...@webtv.net (Coastin Steve) wrote in news:12400-433B28EC-21
@storefull-3116.bay.webtv.net:

> Paul D wrote;

<snip humongous ownage>

Took the words right outta my head, Steve. Excellent post.

Nasai

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:20:32 PM9/28/05
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Ahh.............

Count me easy to please. I think it looks like a lot of fun. Not
perfect, but better than
most of the crap out there.

I'll be at SFGadv next year fo' sho'...

adam....@gmail.com

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:34:13 PM9/28/05
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The Mak wrote:
Coastin_St...@webtv.net (Coastin Steve) wrote in news:12400-433B28EC-21

@storefull-3116.bay.webtv.net:

> Paul D wrote;

<snip humongous ownage>

----------------------------

Agreed. Man, what a case of sour grapes. No offense Paul, but you're
the ultimate fan boy for Holiday World. I haven't been the biggest fan
of either park lately but I have to say, give credit where credit is
due. There is absolutely nothing wrong with El Toro or anything obvious
to complain about. The park is doing the absolute best with the land
this coaster is going to sit on. Perhaps Paul just doesn't understand
that. This is the same plot of land that housed the tiny Viper and
Ultra Twister. In order to get the length, the coaster travels into
another small area once untouched, right along a sliver of land bounded
by a lake. It will then perform its twister section in the Rolling
Thunder infield! Watch the video, it has a nice length. And besides,
some of the greatest wood coasters ever built have extremely short
lengths and come screaming into the brakes. Hmmm...come to think of it
one of the greatest of all resides at your home park. Actually, make
that TWO coasters. Both Raven *and* Legend would benefit from at least
a couple thousand more feet of track (Legend to a lesser degree).

I have to give SFGAd a lot of credit. They didn't go for any gimmicks.
They claim second tallest and fastest and went to beat just the
steepness record. Good for them. No loops, no ridiculous height claims,
and no gimmicks. Just what promises to be an airtime machine and very
promising twister ending.

Live to Ride,
Adam Revesz

Tim Melago

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:37:16 PM9/28/05
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"Newtrek5" <buss...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1127945382.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

The helix on Colossos is actually in the middle of the ride but it isn't
very strong. The ending is very good with three bunny hills. The beginning
sequence (first six hills) of El Toro is essentially the same as Colossos.
I'll give my review of Colossos and you can fill in the blanks as to where
El Toro may rank. I rank Colossos #13 at the moment. I think being "plug and
play" style that the similar elements should be fairly comparable but as
always we won't know for sure until we ride it.

The first drop on Colossos is steep but it immediately goes straight and
doesn't have the curvature to produce much airtime. The next two hills out
perform similar hills on Shivering Timbers. They are the highlight of the
ride, no doubt. From there the turnaround is OK but the next two hills don't
do much of anything. After this point the two rides will be different.
Colossos has an uneventful helix but ends strong with three bunny hills.

The big question for El Toro is will the twister section perform? The curves
on Colossos and Balder are weaker points of those rides. But none of them
have true S-curves. El Toro won't have the ending bunny hills to add
excitement so the performance in the twister section will be key.

--Tim Melago


Bill B.

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:38:40 PM9/28/05
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"Coastin Steve" wrote:
> "Who?" determined that the Legend "appropriately uses up it's
> potential energy"
> <just curious>
>
> "A rule should be...." WTF are you talking about ??

I think it's called "Sour Grapes," Steve.

I mean, C'mon... El Toro just took all the wind out of The Voyage's sails in
one fell swoop (no pun intended). Apparently, some local residents aren't
taking the news too kindly.


Wolf

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:51:00 PM9/28/05
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Looks like Colossos...

--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf


Wolf

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:56:32 PM9/28/05
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>>>So it's a really tall coaster with not enough track for it's height.
>>>Typical TPM.
>>>
>>You know, I was thinking along similar lines. Why build a nice, tall
>>coaster like that, then have it stop short on the brakes with so much
>>potential energy left.
>
> Comparing El Torro it's drop is going to be almost 60 feet taller than
> The Legend. The Legend appropriately uses up it's potential energy
> and ends strong. El Torro is going to have a third more power than
> The Legend due to its lift and just 10% more track. A rule should be
> if you're going to build taller then you have to build longer as well.

It's not quite a linear relationship, though. Drag factors start playing in
and those scale with speed squared. Magnum, for instance, is only 1200'
longer than Gemini, but it's 66% taller.

Paul Drabek

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:56:13 PM9/28/05
to
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:36:12 -0400, Coasti...@webtv.net (Coastin
Steve) wrote:

> And where do you get that El Toro will have 30% more power ? You
>better check your physics books my friend. Lift height is potential
>energy, not power. Power would more appropriately be related to speed
>/ momentum......
> El Toro 70 mph Legend 58 mph
>So sorry, 12 mph doesn't translate to 30% more approx 20 %

Guess what Steve I don't know jack shit about physics and made my
statement from a very basic knowledge of it. So opps I was off by a
little bit.

> You know what I think ? I think your just jealous because El Toro
>is going to steal the Voyage's steepest drop record before it even has a
>chance to claim it. ( by a good bit, but I suppose it's not steep
>enough either <g> )

Steve you are taking this way too personally. I'm not attacking you
at all on this coaster and you know what I haven't given a rat's ass
about records after I got past puberty. Records were meant to be
broken so if you're going to hang your hat on that once it's broken
what do you have? Jack & Shit and to rip off a line from Army of
Darkness "Jack just left town".

It's like what Will Koch said on Saturday that he wasn't going out to
break any records with The Voyage as he just wanted a great ride which
with Holiday World's track record if I was a betting man I'd lay a
wager that he's going to get just what he ordered.

> The F'n coaster isn't even built yet and already people are
>complaining. Talk about dealing with a stacked deck. 8-(

Steve RRC is a discussion forum where people are free to express
themselves. If you don't like my opinion or those others who really
aren't blown away by SFGAD's new coaster please follow the advice of
George Carlin.....If you don't like what's being said you can change
the station or...turn it off!

Wolf

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:58:36 PM9/28/05
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> Oh that's right, it's Six Flags, and we all know they can't do
> anything right according to many who post to this group 8-(
>
> And where do you get that El Toro will have 30% more power ? You
> better check your physics books my friend. Lift height is potential
> energy, not power. Power would more appropriately be related to speed
> / momentum......
> El Toro 70 mph Legend 58 mph
> So sorry, 12 mph doesn't translate to 30% more approx 20 %

Well, more energy anyway. And Paul was conservative. It's actually 46% more
energy, assuming trains of equal mass.

Bill B.

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Sep 28, 2005, 8:59:12 PM9/28/05
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Where I think El Toro wins big points are the following:

1) Intertwined with Rolling Thunder -- killer visuals just like Mr. Twister
was with the Wildcat!
2) Great out and back section, then a cool high-speed twister section -- two
great concepts in one.
3) Plug & play track will ensure smooth riding (no pot holes) at ultra-high
speeds.
4) Sure, it ends with way too much energy, but so did B&M's Batman The Ride
and Nemesis coasters, and both of them prove the short circuits + unexpended
energy = thrilling ride from start to finish!

In my book, El Toro is a MAJOR winner!! I ridden both Colossus and Balder,
and both coasters smoke 90% of the woodies in America.

Cannot wait to ride it on opening day 2006.


Paul Drabek

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Sep 28, 2005, 9:10:14 PM9/28/05
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LOL

Like I'm actually upsept about this? I have what looks like a
fantastic coaster going up in my backyard and you know what I'm going
to have a blast riding it next year and beyond no matter what bigger
and better coaster is built somewhere else in the world. While I'm
not blown away by El Torro (Kudos to 6F for the cool name) It's great
that there will be another wooden coaster going up next year.

Rastus O'Ginga

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Sep 28, 2005, 10:02:57 PM9/28/05
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On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:56:13 -0500, Paul Drabek
<Raven...@Negative-G.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:36:12 -0400, Coasti...@webtv.net (Coastin
>Steve) wrote:
>
>> And where do you get that El Toro will have 30% more power ? You
>>better check your physics books my friend. Lift height is potential
>>energy, not power. Power would more appropriately be related to speed
>>/ momentum......
>> El Toro 70 mph Legend 58 mph
>>So sorry, 12 mph doesn't translate to 30% more approx 20 %
>
>Guess what Steve I don't know jack shit about physics and made my
>statement from a very basic knowledge of it. So opps I was off by a
>little bit.

Well, the Energy would be proportional to height of lift, but also
depends on mass (although Schwartz will argue that). El Toro's train
probably weighs more, so speed isn't a proper energy comparison. True
power is a fairly irrelevent measure for a coaster, unless you're
talking a launched coaster. Steve needs to check the physics books
too, because Power is related to mass also (it is simply energy/time),
and that is an unknown in his equation, so his 20% is unprovable at
this point, and no more right than your 30%.

I think Both coasters will be awesome. The high speed turns ending to
El Toro si something I've always wanted to see in a coaster. And
Voyage appears to be just phenomenal. However, Legend did too, and I
think it is VERY overrated. BUt Voyage won't be full of spine
snapping laterals, which is good.


Rastus O'Ginga

Winner of the 2nd Annual C. Montgomery Burns Award for
Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence.

"What an awful dream, 1s and 0s everywhere... I thought I saw a 2." - Bender

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Coastin Steve

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Sep 28, 2005, 9:54:13 PM9/28/05
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To end his most recent post on is thread, Paul D wrote:

Steve RRC is a discussion forum where people are free to express
themselves. If you don't like my opinion or those others who really
aren't blown away by SFGAD's new coaster please follow the advice of
George Carlin.....If you don't like what's being said you can change the
station or...turn it off!
Have Fun
Paul Drabek

*************************************rrc

Hmm, now let me see if I've got this right
"RRC is a disscussion forum where "people" are free to express
themselves"
But from your suggesting that I "change the station or turn it off"
you're not giving me the freedom to express myself with the other
"people" here at the RRC. Why would that be? Is it because I'm not
a person ? No, you've met me several times before at coaster events
I defiantely fall into a "people" catagory

Is it because I think your opinion on this one is wrong ? and for
the wrong reasons ?
Is it because I try to tell you I think your opinion is wrong ?

This IS a disscussion group and I'm here to read and discuss. I'm
sorry because I happen to strongly disagree with you on this one, that
you take the childish "then go play somewhere else" attitude with me.

Sorry Paul, I'm here to stay

Coastin Steve

http://community.webtv.net/Coastin_Steve/CoastinStevesHome

Andrew Brawley

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Sep 28, 2005, 10:21:32 PM9/28/05
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"Bill B." <w.buc...@verizon.delete.net> wrote in message
news:kIG_e.14597$TQ3.7506@trnddc05...

I don't think El Toro knocks the wind out of The Voyage's sails at
all. I don't see how anyone can honestly compare two rides that
haven't even been built yet. Paul makes a valid point, in that it
seems a waste to end the ride after that amount of track when the
potential could carry it further. And given his proximity to HW, I'm
inclined to blindly accept any bias he might have ('cause who can
better keep us informed about one of our favorite destinations?)

The way I see it, the rides are quite dissimilar, and each one is well
suited to its location and demographic. SFGAd apparently has a small
footprint to work with (I've never been there myself). So the shorter
track could be more or less dictated by constraints of real estate.
But the *plug & play* Intamin prefab thing is most likely a good
choice for that park and its broad appeal. At least it's hopeful that
SF can maintain one of these things.

HW on the other hand is really getting a chance to stretch its legs.
They have the land to let this thing go... a long way. They have a
loyal following of diehard woodie fans that will flock to anything
they build, and who appreciate a more traditional construction.

Yeah, they both start out as out & backs and get more twisterish as
things progress, but other than that I see very little to compare. We
all know that *records* don't always mean that much. I think both
parks are getting what is best for them.

I do, however find it amusing that HW is gearing up for three train
operation while SFGAd is gearing up for two.

Andrew Brawley

fade out to reply


Paul Drabek

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Sep 28, 2005, 10:34:14 PM9/28/05
to
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:54:13 -0400, Coasti...@webtv.net (Coastin
Steve) wrote:


>
>Hmm, now let me see if I've got this right
>"RRC is a disscussion forum where "people" are free to express
>themselves"
> But from your suggesting that I "change the station or turn it off"
>you're not giving me the freedom to express myself with the other
>"people" here at the RRC. Why would that be? Is it because I'm not
>a person ? No, you've met me several times before at coaster events
>I defiantely fall into a "people" catagory
>
> Is it because I think your opinion on this one is wrong ? and for
>the wrong reasons ?
> Is it because I try to tell you I think your opinion is wrong ?
>
> This IS a disscussion group and I'm here to read and discuss. I'm
>sorry because I happen to strongly disagree with you on this one, that
>you take the childish "then go play somewhere else" attitude with me.

Wow Steve you're still missing the point. If you don't like what my
opinion is and can't convince me through discussion to change
it...tough and the same goes in reverse for me.

I have not tried to run you off but if you have a hard time with
someone not jumping for joy and shouting hallelujah to the heavens
over what SFGAd does that's your problem and that's what I meant by
the Carlin remark.


>
> Sorry Paul, I'm here to stay

Good, so am I.

Rob Cunning

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Sep 28, 2005, 10:42:41 PM9/28/05
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"Bill B." <w.buc...@verizon.delete.net> wrote in message
news:kIG_e.14597$TQ3.7506@trnddc05...
Aw c'mon, give Paul a break. I wouldn't presume to speak for him, but I
know that if I was in his position, I'd probably be just a little let down
that the records were stolen from The Voyage. In fact, I AM a little let
down. I love HW and I was glad to see that they were going to be a record
holder for a little bit because it was a nice change from the usual CP,
SFGAdv, SFMM record holder thing.

I live in central TX and I have never had a record breaking coaster go up
anywhere near me. Well, OK, TX Giant held a record for a little bit, but
even that was disputed with Hercules. Any other TX coasters that might have
held records, lost that status long before I got here. If there was
suddenly a huge record breaking coaster going up at SFFT, and before it even
got built some other park a thousand miles away from me announced a coaster
that was going to steal the record from it, I'd be just a tad disappointed.

That said, I did watch the video of El Toro and it took my breath away. It
looks like a fantastic coaster. Too bad it'll be years before I ever manage
to get to NJ to ride it.

-Rob


Bill B.

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Sep 28, 2005, 10:44:17 PM9/28/05
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"Andrew Brawley" wrote:

> I don't think El Toro knocks the wind out of The Voyage's sails at
> all. I don't see how anyone can honestly compare two rides that
> haven't even been built yet.

I was talking about stats. Yeah, we all know Paul dismisses stats, but HW
was really hyping the drop lengths and max drop-angle of the Voyage
woodie...and there comes El Toro and it trounces on those. That is where I
was making the comparison...from a steepest, longest drop on a woodie
marketing standpoint.


> I do, however find it amusing that HW is gearing up for three train
> operation while SFGAd is gearing up for two.

Voyage has a block brake and El Toro does not. It's simple, really. Sure,
the whole length thing will be a long point of contension among enthusiasts,
but the point being is that ET will deliver an intense ride from start to
finish ala Batman: The Ride, and Voyage will deliver a longer experience ala
TOGO's Bandit coaster.


> HW on the other hand is really getting a chance to stretch its legs.
> They have the land to let this thing go... a long way. They have a
> loyal following of diehard woodie fans that will flock to anything
> they build, and who appreciate a more traditional construction.

This is a side discussion, but I wonder how much longer the diehard woodie
fans will be flocking to HW now that Jeff Hammersly has left the park's
maintenance staff. He was THE GUY making The Raven and The Legend worth
their weight. With Jeff gone and the park left with an inexperienced
maintenance person to maintain track -- I wonder how long Voyage even be a
rideable coaster? Sad to say, I fear the worst for the park's other two
woodies as well. They were delivering truly outstanding performance under
Jeff's watch. Sadly, I personally think those days are gone.

-b


Rob Ascough

unread,
Sep 28, 2005, 11:02:34 PM9/28/05
to

"Rastus O'Ginga" <ras...@kingwoodXXXXXcable.net> wrote in message
news:r5hmj1hdjf3okukhl...@4ax.com...

> I think Both coasters will be awesome.

Probably the most intelligent thing said in this entire thread.

The Voyage is going to be awesome. So is El Toro. And let's not forget
about another outstanding GCII twister at Beech Bend. Or the Starliner at
Cypress and Meteor at Little A-Merrick-A. Oh yeah, and that's not including
one or two more surprises.

I can't believe that people are putting coaster A down or saying that
coaster B is going to be so much better than coaster C. Going by the number
and quality of wood coasters being constructed/reconstructed for the 2006
season, I can't see there being a damn thing to complain about... aside from
a potential lack of money to get to all these places in the same year!

Indiana, New Jersey, Kentucky, Florida, Wisconsin... we all win.


Ricky Summersett

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Sep 29, 2005, 12:03:11 AM9/29/05
to

Oops!

Ricky
>

btwng...@yahoo.com

unread,
Sep 29, 2005, 2:31:55 AM9/29/05
to

>
> This is a side discussion, but I wonder how much longer the diehard woodie
> fans will be flocking to HW now that Jeff Hammersly has left the park's
> maintenance staff. He was THE GUY making The Raven and The Legend worth
> their weight. With Jeff gone and the park left with an inexperienced
> maintenance person to maintain track -- I wonder how long Voyage even be a
> rideable coaster? Sad to say, I fear the worst for the park's other two
> woodies as well. They were delivering truly outstanding performance under
> Jeff's watch. Sadly, I personally think those days are gone.
>
> -b

I agree Bill. The Raven and Legend have not been anywhere close to
their former selves and that is based on rides from many visits over
this summer. This has also been the opinion of many other people I've
talked with. I know Paul will respond with "I know those coasters
better than anybody and they're as good as new", but sadly that is just
fanboy talk.

Personally I don't think a team of 10 of the most experienced
maintenance perople just working on The Voyage could keep that thing in
top condition. Haven't we learned our lessons with monster woodies?
At least El Toro will stay in good shape.

And Paul... You haven't ridden ET yet, its not even built for god
sakes. How can you say it doesn't blow you away? I know you're going
by visuals and the elements you like, but Baldner doesn't look like
much either and it knocks the socks off of almost every woodie in the
US.

BT

Christopher Bogart

unread,
Sep 29, 2005, 6:48:39 AM9/29/05
to
Question is...

Will the bridge linking El Toro to Medusa be reopened?

Coastin Steve

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Sep 29, 2005, 7:22:11 AM9/29/05
to
Chris B wrote:
From: cmj...@yahoo.com (Christopher Bogart)

Question is...
Will the bridge linking El Toro to Medusa be reopened?

If we can believe the artwork that's been released, yes.

But maybe GrAdv should get some opinions on if they should re-open
it. That might make your walk to Medusa "too short" as well. 8-)

Coastin Steve

http://community.webtv.net/Coastin_Steve/CoastinStevesHome

Paul Drabek

unread,
Sep 29, 2005, 7:57:19 AM9/29/05
to
On 28 Sep 2005 23:31:55 -0700, btwng...@yahoo.com wrote:


>I agree Bill. The Raven and Legend have not been anywhere close to
>their former selves and that is based on rides from many visits over
>this summer. This has also been the opinion of many other people I've
>talked with. I know Paul will respond with "I know those coasters
>better than anybody and they're as good as new", but sadly that is just
>fanboy talk.

You know what...time will tell. I do find it amusing that just
because I'm a admitted HW fanboy that means that I can't say anything
at all about the park and have it taken objectively. If this so why
are the other various park fanboys allowed to express themselves about
their parks without having their opinion (which is what I have been
stating not the God's truth) automatically thrown away?

>Personally I don't think a team of 10 of the most experienced
>maintenance perople just working on The Voyage could keep that thing in
>top condition. Haven't we learned our lessons with monster woodies?
>At least El Toro will stay in good shape.

Why? Like SF will really spend the cash to have Intamin ship over new
track sections all the time when a section becomes rough?

>And Paul... You haven't ridden ET yet, its not even built for god
>sakes. How can you say it doesn't blow you away? I know you're going
>by visuals and the elements you like, but Baldner doesn't look like
>much either and it knocks the socks off of almost every woodie in the
>US.

On the same token neither have you ridden it yet so how can you say
that it has blown you away? I'm not ranking the coasters that I
haven't been on. All I have said was that yes the design didn't blow
me away as I'm way more into terrain coasters than airtime rides. If
El Torro fits what you're into cool more power to you.

It's ending looks cool. I am annoyed with mostly large theme parks
CP-SF who build coasters high but not long and that's all I meant when
I said that I (and others who for some reason aren't being reamed out
here) wished El Torro was longer. It's not like I printed out the
plans for the ride and took a crap on them or something.

If and ever I get out to NJ to visit SFGAd I'll ride El Torro with an
open mind heck I'm happy to see another wooden coaster opening and I'm
even curious as to it being an Intamin woodie. The thing is some of
you out there need to grow a spine. I have seen my home parked ripped
to shreads for years here and even people emailing me out of the blue
to do so and you know what my attitude is...that's your opinion and I
don't get my panties in a bunch over it. It'd be nice if some of you
could be the same.

And that's all I have to say on this.

deadand...@gmail.com

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Sep 29, 2005, 2:32:46 PM9/29/05
to
>So it's a really tall coaster with not enough track for it's height.
Typical TPM. <

Haha! You read my mind. I saw a picture of the layout, and I'm like,
"where's the rest of it?"

deadand...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 29, 2005, 2:40:32 PM9/29/05
to
>Looks like Colossos... <

Just watched the video...hmm. The first half is ALL Collossos, which is
kinda shitty, IMO. I mean, okay, there's a lot of airtime and its
smooth, but it doesn't do anything really great and never feels like a
wood coaster (which is why I find so Collossos so...meh). The second
half with the turns and lateral drops is kinda swank looking and could
save the ride from being a top 20 type in my book. I'll probably only
bother next year when I finally go to ride it, KingDa Ka, and J2 at
some point during the summer.

David H.--REMOVE STOPSPAM to reply

unread,
Sep 30, 2005, 1:33:21 AM9/30/05
to
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 02:02:57 GMT, Rastus O'Ginga
<ras...@kingwoodXXXXXcable.net> wrote:
>
>I think Both coasters will be awesome. The high speed turns ending to
>El Toro si something I've always wanted to see in a coaster. And
>Voyage appears to be just phenomenal. However, Legend did too, and I
>think it is VERY overrated. BUt Voyage won't be full of spine
>snapping laterals, which is good.

How many times have you ridden it late at night?

Because like all CCI coasters, it really shines at night.

But we all know why you don't want to go to events at Holiday World! So
it's your loss.

David H, davi...@STOPSPAMbellatlantic.net, Boston, MA
PLEASE remove "STOPSPAM" from my address when replying via e-mail.

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by
the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree
in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support
him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not
to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he
fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is
unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or
anyone else."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

Mike Kallay

unread,
Sep 29, 2005, 3:47:11 PM9/29/05
to
In article <qbknj1hrs9hsh060c...@4ax.com>,
Raven...@Negative-G.com says...

> >At least El Toro will stay in good shape.
>
> Why? Like SF will really spend the cash to have Intamin ship over new
> track sections all the time when a section becomes rough?

I think that's an excellent point. Just because the option is there to
replace sections more easily doesn't mean they'll do it. When's the last
time you saw a section of a log flume at <insert SF park here> replaced
with a new one?

The theory is good, but I think the construction side of this thing is
where Six Flags got enamored.

/mike

Mike Kallay

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Sep 29, 2005, 4:08:52 PM9/29/05
to
In article <1128018766.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
deadand...@gmail.com says...

That was my first reaction to the video. When it hit the brakes, I was
thinking "where's the return run of awesome bunny hills? And, no helix
or lateral ending?" So, I watched it again, read all these posts, and I
still have the same reaction.

I think the first drop & the two airtime hills look sweet, especially
that nice headchopper on the first drop, but then the double up looks
kind of rampy to start. There's one or two nice dives, but then it goes
into like a wooden Millennium Force thing. With as smooth as these
things are supposed to be, I don't expect many laterals -- just a speed
coaster. If there were trees (a la Raven) then the speed section might
be awesome. I'm guessing there won't be a tree within 25 yards of this
coaster.

I'd say this coaster is 1/3 Shivering Timbers, 1/3 Millennium Force, and
1/3 lift and brakes. It's definitely missing the third act, IMHO.

I am happy to have a new coaster like this being built. But, I can't
help but be let down because of what might've been. I agree with you
Paul, and I'm not really a Holiday World fan boy. I think Voyage looks
tons more interesting.

To be clear, this is nitpicking and I admit it. It looks to be a winner,
and I can't wait to ride it. I think 2006 is shaping up to be another
classic year for installations.

/mike

Newtrek5

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Oct 1, 2005, 12:13:05 AM10/1/05
to
Oh I don't know. Their steel coasters run pretty darn well, and this is
suppose to be as close to steel as a wooden coaster can get without
becoming Gemini.

I don't think it will be an issue. If anything, I worry about the
maintanance for Voyager. This thing is a monster and "The Boss" comes
to mind if this one isn't maintained properly. Holiday World has
entered a whole new ballpark now, so no one can say for sure they'll
have the same success rate they've had in the past.

Paul Drabek

unread,
Oct 1, 2005, 9:04:38 AM10/1/05
to
On 30 Sep 2005 21:13:05 -0700, "Newtrek5" <buss...@msn.com> wrote:

>Oh I don't know. Their steel coasters run pretty darn well, and this is
>suppose to be as close to steel as a wooden coaster can get without
>becoming Gemini.
>
>I don't think it will be an issue. If anything, I worry about the
>maintanance for Voyager.

LOL it's not themed as a minivan or a Star Trek show so you might want
to drop the "r".

;-)

Have Fun

Dana Schwartz

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Oct 1, 2005, 9:19:12 AM10/1/05
to
On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 08:04:38 -0500, Paul Drabek
<Raven...@Negative-G.com> wrote:

>On 30 Sep 2005 21:13:05 -0700, "Newtrek5" <buss...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>>Oh I don't know. Their steel coasters run pretty darn well, and this is
>>suppose to be as close to steel as a wooden coaster can get without
>>becoming Gemini.
>>
>>I don't think it will be an issue. If anything, I worry about the
>>maintanance for Voyager.
>
>LOL it's not themed as a minivan or a Star Trek show so you might want
>to drop the "r".
>
>;-)

He'll do it when you drop the *extra" 'r' from El Toro.

It's *not* El Torro. :-)

Dana Schwartz (Fair is fair!)

kevind...@astound.net

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Oct 3, 2005, 4:34:14 AM10/3/05
to
No he won't because he is still worried that he'd get splinter! He'd
just ride Kingda Krap all day!

kevind...@astound.net

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Oct 3, 2005, 4:34:18 AM10/3/05
to
No he won't because he is still worried that he'd get splinters! He'd

kevind...@astound.net

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Oct 3, 2005, 4:34:39 AM10/3/05
to

whome

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Nov 6, 2005, 9:38:37 AM11/6/05
to
Interesting discussion...not that my .2 cents means shit on here but ET is
what I crave in a coaster. It's a tweener, O&B with twister elements that
should retain it's high speed throughout.

I prefer the short intense coaster over the long O&B's, Raven tops my list,
hope ET atleast comes close to it...


JMO
"Coastin Steve" <Coasti...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12400-43...@storefull-3116.bay.webtv.net...
> Paul D wrote;
>
> Comparing El Torro it's drop is going to be almost 60 feet taller than
> The Legend. The Legend appropriately uses up it's potential energy and
> ends strong. El Torro is going to have a third more power than The
> Legend due to its lift and just 10% more track. A rule should be if
> you're going to build taller then you have to build longer as well.
> ************************************rrc


>
> "Who?" determined that the Legend "appropriately uses up it's
> potential energy"
> <just curious>
>
> "A rule should be...." WTF are you talking about ??

> Since when is there ANY rules as far as building coasters go ?
> (w/ the exception of G force max's for safety reasons )
> I'm sittting here shaking my head in disbelief that your saying a
> coaster with 4400 ft of track
> (and not as much wasted in the lift hill ) is too short.
> Why did you choose the Legend to compare it with ? If you do that
> then HW's Raven shouldn't have been built. Now there's a coaster
> that's way tooo short.
> ( it's drop is only 6ft shorter and it's track lenth is well over
> 1000 ft shorter according to rcdb)
>
> Oh that's right, it's Six Flags, and we all know they can't do
> anything right according to many who post to this group 8-(


>
> And where do you get that El Toro will have 30% more power ? You
> better check your physics books my friend. Lift height is potential
> energy, not power. Power would more appropriately be related to speed
> / momentum......
> El Toro 70 mph Legend 58 mph
> So sorry, 12 mph doesn't translate to 30% more approx 20 %
>

> You know what I think ? I think your just jealous because El Toro
> is going to steal the Voyage's steepest drop record before it even has a
> chance to claim it. ( by a good bit, but I suppose it's not steep
> enough either <g> )
>
> The F'n coaster isn't even built yet and already people are
> complaining. Talk about dealing with a stacked deck. 8-(
>
> Coastin Steve
>
> http://community.webtv.net/Coastin_Steve/CoastinStevesHome
>


Stephen Wenzler

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Nov 6, 2005, 11:38:48 AM11/6/05
to
hey everybody that are discussing about El Toro woodie, I'm wondering
what the status of Viper and Rolling Thunder?

whome

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 11:48:09 AM11/6/05
to
Viper is scrap metal, RT was closed sometime during the construction of ET
due to it's proximity....


"Stephen Wenzler" <step...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:skqbf.350$PZ6.254@trndny07...

Stephen Wenzler

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Nov 6, 2005, 12:30:09 PM11/6/05
to

I hope the guys at SFGAdv have ripped apart Viper ride and remove it
completly so that it won't show up as a sore and ugly thumb :)

Reggie Richardson

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Nov 6, 2005, 7:36:21 PM11/6/05
to

http://amusementpics.com/Viper%20Page.htm
They took no care in tearing it apart. :)

The Mak

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Nov 7, 2005, 5:14:03 PM11/7/05
to
Stephen Wenzler <step...@verizon.net> wrote in
news:B4rbf.699$w_6.567@trndny09:

<SNIP>

>>>>
>>>hey everybody that are discussing about El Toro woodie, I'm wondering
>>>what the status of Viper and Rolling Thunder?
>>
>>
>>
>
> I hope the guys at SFGAdv have ripped apart Viper ride and remove it
> completly so that it won't show up as a sore and ugly thumb :)

It was "taered down" with extreme prejudice and scrapped, but the station
structure was left standing. The station itself is being gutted and
rebuilt for use as El Toro's station.

Stephen Wenzler

unread,
Nov 9, 2005, 7:19:29 PM11/9/05
to


Thanks to all of you for the information, I NEVER forget that ride, I
rode it once and wouldn't ride it again because of it's extreme
roughnesss expecially the hard 'U' turn lacks the banking of the turn at
high speed. Also I do have a video of that which is part of a full video
clip (MPEG) that features Nitro, Medusa, Batman & Robin - The Chiller,
Superman - Ultimate Flight :)

Again, thanks for the update!

Eric Griswold

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Nov 9, 2005, 7:26:53 PM11/9/05
to
The Mak <n...@no.no> writes:

> > I hope the guys at SFGAdv have ripped apart Viper ride and remove it
> > completly so that it won't show up as a sore and ugly thumb :)
>
> It was "taered down" with extreme prejudice and scrapped, but the station
> structure was left standing. The station itself is being gutted and
> rebuilt for use as El Toro's station.

In an odd fit of masochism during my one-and-only visit to SFGAd
some years back, it was a walk-on and I rode it 10 times in a row.

After that, I proclaimed, "There! I gave it its due, I don't ever
have to ride it again."

Funny thing, I also did the same thing on another TOGO (or
should I say "TAER-GO" :0) coaster -- Knott's (Wind)Jammer

Eric

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