The Rise and Fall of Rec.Roller-Coaster
Mitch Hawker
newsgroup seemed less busy than I remembered it on this visit.
After a few minutes of googling, these are the stats I came up with:
Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
1991-11
1992-54
1993-63
1994-90
1995-159
1996-376
1997-611
1998-1320
1999-1480
2000-1370
2001-759
2002-695
2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
I am guessing that there are as many or more enthusiasts in 2003 as ever before and
that more of them are online than ever before....so people must be moving to the
private/moderated forums from r.r-c in large numbers.
Which of those moderated forums are the most popular? Are they really any better
or just easier for some people to use?
Is anyone else struck by the parallels between this trend and the population shift
away from the inner cities that happened in the second half of the 20th century?
Moving to the suburbs/gated communities vs. moving to private/moderated forums.
What are the prospects for "urban renewal" here at rec.roller-coaster?
Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that the signal to noise ratio will ever again
approach what it once was here. Ironically, the private forums I have seen do not
seem to be a whole lot better in this regard.
What do those of you still in this diminishing audience think about any of this?
Charles Nungester
else leaving.
Chuck
Charles Nungester
Coasters ridden standing up=3 Mantis, King Cobra and Chang
Coasters riddin sitting down= 213
Knobear
>I see a very few people with personal vendettas basically winning and
>everyone
>else leaving.
I see an opinionated minority leaving for the safe haven of a moderated forum!
The analogy of the "gated communities" in the preceding post is perfect!
"We don't want you in our life so we'll just lock the gate!"
It's unfortunate because there are still a lot of knowledgeable individuals
lurking here just waiting for intelligent conversation.
Redevelopement is possible, but it will take a community effort!
Paul Drabek
Nungester) wrote:
>I see a very few people with personal vendettas basically winning and everyone
>else leaving.
I'm still here and not going anywhere!
Have Fun!
Paul Drabek
Raven...@Negative-g.com
Negative-g: www.Negative-g.com
Read My Blog "It's All Downhill From Here": www.negative-g.com/paul/blog/blogger.html
Proud Poster On Rec,Roller-Coaster Since September 27, 1996
Paul Drabek
wrote:
>I haven't been a frequent contributor or visitor here in many years, but the
>newsgroup seemed less busy than I remembered it on this visit.
>
>After a few minutes of googling, these are the stats I came up with:
>
>Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
>1991-11
>1992-54
>1993-63
>1994-90
>1995-159
>1996-376
>1997-611
>1998-1320
>1999-1480
>2000-1370
>2001-759
>2002-695
>2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
>
>I am guessing that there are as many or more enthusiasts in 2003 as ever before and
>that more of them are online than ever before....so people must be moving to the
>private/moderated forums from r.r-c in large numbers.
It's simple Mitch. There's a whole lot more competition out there
today than there has been in the past. In addition to that people
have to think and actually try to get to usenet rather than just
typing in a url into their browser.
I have been hanging around RRC since 96 and I find the community and
the posts just as stimulating then as I do now so in my opinion RRC is
still the place for coasters and community for me on the web!
Sandy A. Nicolaysen
wrote:
>I haven't been a frequent contributor or visitor here in many years, but the
>newsgroup seemed less busy than I remembered it on this visit.
>
>After a few minutes of googling, these are the stats I came up with:
>
>Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
>1991-11
>1992-54
>1993-63
>1994-90
>1995-159
>1996-376
>1997-611
>1998-1320
>1999-1480
>2000-1370
>2001-759
>2002-695
>2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
>
>I am guessing that there are as many or more enthusiasts in 2003 as ever before and
>that more of them are online than ever before....so people must be moving to the
>private/moderated forums from r.r-c in large numbers.
Mitch: I would not read too much into the raw numbers. Ironically,
people have been abandoning the moderated boards in droves.
>
>Which of those moderated forums are the most popular? Are they really any better
>or just easier for some people to use?
Most people have no idea of how to access Usenet. The so called
"internet" to them is email and web pages. Protocols like Usenet and
IRC are far too technical for the "GP".
>
>Is anyone else struck by the parallels between this trend and the population shift
>away from the inner cities that happened in the second half of the 20th century?
>Moving to the suburbs/gated communities vs. moving to private/moderated forums.
I'm on the fence on this one. You make a good point. But RRC was
going to hell in a handbasket when I jumped in at 1997. I haven't
observed this going better or worse.
>
>What are the prospects for "urban renewal" here at rec.roller-coaster?
I have to take the opposite opinion here. RRC is getting better. You
don't belong here if Jason Burkett's comments offend you, nor have a
phobia of gays and lesbians. RRC does NOT need "urban renewal". It
is the same as it has always been from it's inception July 28 1991.
>
>Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that the signal to noise ratio will ever again
>approach what it once was here. Ironically, the private forums I have seen do not
>seem to be a whole lot better in this regard.
Censorship doesn't help. Don't be a putz.
>What do those of you still in this diminishing audience think about any of this?
This is just my own opinion...a lot of great people have left RRC for
as many reasons. Chris Lucht (the RRC button guy) left because of a
new squeeze. Sean Flaharty left, but nobody knows why. Mark McKenzie
left for what I see as a change in lifestyle.
Still, some return. I actually MET SPATCH at not one, but TWO coaster
events this fall...OkBoulderfest & PPP!
The audience is not diminishing, just more silent.
- Sandy "Dollywood '04" Nicolaysen
Joe Schwartz
> Which of those moderated forums are the most popular? Are they really
> any better or just easier for some people to use?
I have no idea, because I don't read or post to any of them. I don't think
moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to see a
forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe enforced
using credit card authentication). In my experience, most people tend to
behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
--
Come visit Joyrides -- www.joyrides.com -- a photo gallery celebrating
the joy and beauty of amusement park rides, especially roller coasters!
Willards Whizzer
feel so alone.
OMG, is this serious???? Comparing what amounts to a three year spike in RRC
posts to 50 years of population changes and growth in the U.S. What?!!?!
I am literally at a loss for words on this one, primarily because it seems so
silly. I guess it bothers me because it falls right into those "I'm leaving
RRC" or "RRC ain't as good as it used to be" threads that we all love. It
demeans those of us who still "live" here.
Jerry "Livin' in the Ghetto of RRC, just trying to do his part for
beautification and helping to improve those Google stats"
Worlds Apart...
>
> >I see a very few people with personal vendettas basically winning and everyone
> >else leaving.
>
> I'm still here and not going anywhere!
>
> Have Fun!
I'm still here and not going anywhere.. and still having fun.
This group is quite informative, quite interesting, has many regulars
with great stories, cool and plentiful TRs, tons of information and some
womnderful advice on parks, coasters, rides and just amusement history
in general.
It's usenet.. trolls and opinions and rants and fun.. come with the
territory.
RRC is one of my favorite NGs.. and IMO (even though i have never met
anyone from this NG in person) this NG has more good, nice, informative
and welcoming people than almost every other NG i've frequented or
presently frequent.
>
> Proud Poster On Rec,Roller-Coaster Since September 27, 1996
I am also one of the above.. although I am too lazy to look up my first
post on RRC (using whatever nickname I used 3 years ago.) :)
--
şoş
#DisneylandResort Chat & 100% DisneyTrivia Bot:
http://dumptv.com/disneychat
#RCTycoon: RCT1/RCT2 Live Chat & Scenarios by NEM
http://dumptv.com/rctycoon
BrandonR
news:hh07ovs6mrucssoen...@4ax.com...
> Wcoast...@yahoo.com (Mitch Hawker) wrote:
> In my experience, most people tend to
> behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
Counterexample = me.
Worlds Apart...
>
> I am literally at a loss for words on this one, primarily because it seems so
> silly. I guess it bothers me because it falls right into those "I'm leaving
> RRC" or "RRC ain't as good as it used to be" threads that we all love. It
> demeans those of us who still "live" here.
>
> Jerry "Livin' in the Ghetto of RRC, just trying to do his part for
> beautification and helping to improve those Google stats"
Sounds just fine, how about a re-ride?? :)
--
BaSSiStiSt
wrote:
>I haven't been a frequent contributor or visitor here in many years, but the
>newsgroup seemed less busy than I remembered it on this visit.
Fascinating numbers, Mitch. I'd definitely place them on the growth of
Web-based boards...so much easier to use and most of them are
moderated. RRC is still the most well-rounded coaster community I know
of, although Coasterbuzz is close.
I miss some of the cool people that used to post here but I honestly
thing that a lot of them were bound to get offended sooner or later
and would have left anyways. The only one I really miss on a daily
basis is McKenzie.
Guess I've done my part to get those Google numbers up for today!
Mike Miller - Finally on the SBC train to DSL nirvana
Surf Dance Chris
Still the easiest to access NG, the easiest to navigate, easiest to load, and
always quite informative NG...
You learn to ignore what isn't good, and concentrate on the good.
"Surf Dance" Chris,
who will ride the Flip "N" Out before any coaster!
http://members.aol.com/surfdancec
#1 Mondial fan- Super Nova, Top Scan, and Shake
"Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads!"
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
>
> > Which of those moderated forums are the most popular? Are they really
> > any better or just easier for some people to use?
>
> I have no idea, because I don't read or post to any of them. I don't
think
> moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to see a
> forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe enforced
> using credit card authentication). In my experience, most people tend to
> behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
>
spill over into threads outside of the thread where a disagreement occurred.
On the other hand, that problem is fairly common here on RRC, and has been a
problem for several years now.
Furthermore, moderation also brings outright troll posts to an expedient and
proper ending--thread locked/topic closed immediately!
For example, I cannot find any recent threads on Westcoaster.net,
CoasterBuzz.com, nor America Coasters Network.com where a disagreement in a
specific thread was a spillover or vendetta carried over from another thread
where two or more users disagreed. The disagreements stay in the thread with
the disagreements, and the next thread(s) are good discussion or may even
have new disagreements, but those disagreements are not carryovers from
previous threads.
In comparison, I can find multiple threads on RRC where other users were
given negative mentions in others' trip reports where said person was not
even at that event... or other users were brought up in a discussion thread
they did not even start or participate in... or another brand new topic
thread was trolled as continuation of the disagreement from another thread
(this is where people basically show they have a personal vendetta). In a
moderated forum, this would result in an admin warning, admin edit/post
edited, or admin edit/post deleted.
That is why moderated forums are better--it's not about closing the gates
and locking out members of the community. In fact, community membership is
open and free with any username and a valid e-mail address (as long as the
pop-up ads can also be tolerated, of course). From what I can tell, it's
about keeping members in check who arguably, need to be kept in check via
strict moderation. It's about community norms and standards, with the help
of the moderator who rarely ever acts "dictatorial" from what I can see.
And yes, even CoasterBuzz.com has a far worse reputation here on RRC than it
deserves... its moderation "problems" are much more exaggerated than they
actually are, and any thread locked/topic closed issues I've observed are
usually due to topic redundancy (recently discussed), off-topic trolling, or
turning a thread into a personal conversation where e-mail or IM is more
appropriate.
All this is, of course, IMHO.
Steven Wilson
> I haven't been a frequent contributor or visitor here in many years, but the
> newsgroup seemed less busy than I remembered it on this visit.
>
> After a few minutes of googling, these are the stats I came up with:
>
> Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
> 1991-11
> 1992-54
> 1993-63
> 1994-90
> 1995-159
> 1996-376
> 1997-611
> 1998-1320
> 1999-1480
> 2000-1370
> 2001-759
> 2002-695
> 2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
Maybe more and more people are going to Knoebels rather than posting to
rec.roller-coaster during that week?
Steven GREAT AMERICA parks.
eze...@yahoo.com http://www.greatamericaparks.com/
Marshall
"Steven Wilson" <eze...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%uOgb.876$y05.10...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Maybe more and more people are going to Knoebels rather than posting to
> rec.roller-coaster during that week?
>
And note that the "bulge" coincided with Coaster Wars.
Do you think maybe it has something to do with fewer "new" coasters to
discuss? Could it be that parks making vast changes? Could it be that PKI
went with a "new" waterpark next year and not the Hyper they desperately
need, so we dont have anything to flame each other over???
Nah, Who'd want to discuss coasters on a coaster group?
David Burton
opened worldwide in the amusement industry. I wonder if all the most
exciting technological developments in coasters are in fact behind us?
Have the limits of the human body been met?
David Sandborg
Burton <zamp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I think it more likely that the limitations of parks' budgets have been
met.
--
Dave Sandborg
Remove Spam-away to respond via e-mail.
Walt Breymier
<dwro...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>In comparison, I can find multiple threads on RRC where other users were
>given negative mentions in others' trip reports where said person was not
>even at that event... or other users were brought up in a discussion thread
>they did not even start or participate in... or another brand new topic
>thread was trolled as continuation of the disagreement from another thread
>(this is where people basically show they have a personal vendetta).
Basically, he's whining that people pick on him.
Walt Breymier
Shawn Mamros
>Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
>1991-11
>1992-54
>1993-63
>1994-90
>1995-159
>1996-376
>1997-611
>1998-1320
>1999-1480
>2000-1370
>2001-759
>2002-695
>2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
I wonder if some of those 1997-2002 numbers might have been inflated by
a flamewar or two going on at that particular moment. IMO, r.r-c has
actually gotten better along those lines lately; people seem to be
getting better about letting trolls and other obvious flamebait pass
by. (Though the reduction in flames could also be a function of a
reduction in posts overall...)
-Shawn Mamros
E-mail to: mamros -at- mit dot edu
Thom 25
are certainly interesting to note, but Marshal hit the nail on the head IMO,
the "bulge" coincided with Coaster Wars. MF was announced at least 18 months in
advance, and the rise in posts coincides with all the new coasters built around
the turn of the century.
Twisted Rails used to be undated weekly when X and Xcelerator were being built
- now, Twisted Rails has not been updated since June 16, 2003.
Flame wars have been around from my day one on RRC (which I totally ignore).
Personally, I am only interested in intelligent conversation, which focuses on
the rides I am interested in. Moderated newsgroups provide IMO a more focused
discussion, while eliminating some of the flame wars.
Personally, I prefer RRC, but the amount of discussion regarding TTD (for
example), just wasnt here as much as it was on GTTP (which I hate due to the
moderation, but LOVED the info the site provides). So IMO, traffic on RRC and
moderated sites are a direct result of the rides under construction.
One final note to the person who said "Protocols like Usenet and IRC are far
too technical for the "GP". That makes no sense since traffic in 2000 was at an
all time high. I doubt people forgot how to access Usenet over the last 3
years.
Tom
Keith Hopkins
news:ea7184ba955b9c12...@unlimited.ultrafeed.com...
Walt's Lawsuit Index: 14
--
Keith Hopkins
suss...@visi.comblock (clear the block to reply)
"You're turning this into an alt.sex group."
Dave Althoff Jr
: I haven't been a frequent contributor or visitor here in many years, but the
: After a few minutes of googling, these are the stats I came up with:
: Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
: 1991-11
: 1992-54
: 1993-63
: 1994-90
: 1995-159
: 1996-376
: 1997-611
: 1998-1320
: 1999-1480
: 2000-1370
: 2001-759
: 2002-695
: 2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
I think for a fair comparison you need to pick a different week. The week
of October 1-7 is ALWAYS connected to the Phall Phun Phest at Knoebels.
Is there a possibility that the decline in r.r-c messages during that week
might be connected to the increasing number of r.r-c participants
attending that event and as a result not having newsgroup access?
It's not that I disagree that the numbers are dropping. It's just that in
the particular week you chose for comparison purposes, there is an
external factor which may or may not have an effect on the numbers.
I think a better way to do it might be to pick, say, four weeks spread
throughout the year, and do same-week comparisons and some kind of
aggregate analysis.
--Dave Althoff, Jr., who is not a statistician.
--
/-\ _ *** Respect rides. They do not respect you. ***
/XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /X\__ _ _ _____
/XXXXX\ /XXX\ _/XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
Bruce Turner
"Mitch Hawker" <Wcoast...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:df87f01e.03100...@posting.google.com...
> I haven't been a frequent contributor or visitor here in many years, but
the
> newsgroup seemed less busy than I remembered it on this visit.
>
> After a few minutes of googling, these are the stats I came up with:
>
> Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
> 1991-11
> 1992-54
> 1993-63
> 1994-90
> 1995-159
> 1996-376
> 1997-611
> 1998-1320
> 1999-1480
> 2000-1370
> 2001-759
> 2002-695
> 2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
Thanks for the stats Mitch. It did seem a lot busier a few years ago , but
has calmed down in recent years. I do subscribe to a moderated forum , the
URC , but that doesn't effect the quality of my post. If I have a bone to
pick , doesn't matter what forum I'm on , I voice the opinion.
What I do think that might have chased some people off the board , was the
flame wars. There was a time on this forum , that there was no less than 5
flame wars going at once if memory serves me correctly. On one of the other
forums a thread developed about all the coaster forums out there , including
this forum. My comment was if you post here , depending what you post , a
flame war could develop , so wear the asbestos underwear.
I do agree with some of the people that responded to this thread , the GP
aren't to bright when it comes to setting up their computers to get this
forum. Quite a few of them have problems clearing their machines of cookies
, never mind trying to set the protocol for this forum.
On the other forum , the thread went a little more technical. A comment was
made that the RRC was created around the time that 286 and 386 machines
ruled , and UNIX was still the operating system of choice for the commercial
servers.
Good Thread Mitch , It kind of puts the RRC in perspective.
Bruce...........................................
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Dave Althoff Jr
: I'm on the fence on this one. You make a good point. But RRC was
: going to hell in a handbasket when I jumped in at 1997. I haven't
: observed this going better or worse.
RRC has been going to hell in a handbasket for longer than that.
But you know something? We still haven't gotten there yet! And for the
preservation of the communiity, there are a few of us obstinate types who
won't jump out until the gates are in sight...!
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Willards Whizzer
bitter over the whole recall / AH-Nold thing. :-)
Thanks for stimulating some discussion, Mitch.
Jerry "who appreciates the points people have been making, more eloquently than
I did"
Shawn Mamros
>Sandy A. Nicolaysen (sand...@erols.com) wrote:
>: I'm on the fence on this one. You make a good point. But RRC was
>: going to hell in a handbasket when I jumped in at 1997. I haven't
>: observed this going better or worse.
>
>RRC has been going to hell in a handbasket for longer than that.
>
Damn, we gotta try harder! :-)
-Shawn Mamros ("I say Superman is *not* a coaster!" - wait, that doesn't
work anymore, there's more than one ride by that name and at least some
of them *are* coasters - ah, nuts...)
Shawn Mamros
>Whoops, sorry for the somewhat harsh posting last night. I was probably just
>bitter over the whole recall / AH-Nold thing. :-)
Now there's what we need to really go to hell in a handbasket - a
political flamewar! Works every time! ;-)
(Somebody else will have to get this one going, though - I'm still
laughing too hard w.r.t. this one...)
-Shawn Mamros (though I am visiting San Diego in a couple weeks...)
Mitch Hawker
Interesting points all. A very lively discussion in such short time.
Traffic volume in 2003 is just over a third of what it was at its peak
in 1999, but there are evidently still plenty of people out there
waiting for something of interest to weigh in on.
Decline in quantity is proven, decline in quality is not. The traffic
volume is similar in 2003 to what it was in 1997 and I know there are
many of us here who found this forum invaluable with far fewer posts
in 1994 or before.
I put up a simple webpage with the "googleable" posts for each month
of rec.roller-coaster's existence, along with totals and averages by
month and year.
http://www.geocities.com/wcoasterpoll/rrcposts.htm
Some interesting tidbits can be gleaned, e.g. June is the busiest
month and postings rose every year until 1999 and have declined every
year since. Your mileage may vary...
Mitch Hawker
PS Netscape does not seem to have an up-to-date version of r.r-c any
longer so I am having to use google groups to access it. Perhaps
similar occurrences with ISP newsgroup access have prevented the less
determined from reaching r.r-c.
I already regret having my unaltered address on these posts but google
groups makes it tough to get around that without creating bogus new
addresses.
Greg V.G.
conversation there, most of the time, does not pique my interest as
much as the postings on R.R-C. I, too, notice a definite decrease in
the number of posting just this weekend alone.
While Mitch's discovery helps shed discussion on a number of topics, I
think the causes for the decrease in numbers are numerous as others
have already mentioned, such as the decrease of new coasters, the
popularity of PPP, etc.
Greg VG
"Daniel W. Rouse Jr." <dwro...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote in message news:<10655912...@news-1.nethere.net>...
> "Joe Schwartz" <j...@joyrides.com> wrote in message
> news:hh07ovs6mrucssoen...@4ax.com...
> > Wcoast...@yahoo.com (Mitch Hawker) wrote:
> >
> > > Which of those moderated forums are the most popular? Are they really
> > > any better or just easier for some people to use?
> >
> > I have no idea, because I don't read or post to any of them. I don't
> think
> > moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to see a
> > forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe enforced
> > using credit card authentication). In my experience, most people tend to
> > behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
> >
> The one place where moderation excels is that disagreements rarely, if ever,
> spill over into threads outside of the thread where a disagreement occurred.
> On the other hand, that problem is fairly common here on RRC, and has been a
> problem for several years now.
(Remainder of the post snipped)
DeadAndRestless
>went with a "new" waterpark next year and not the Hyper they desperately
>need, so we dont have anything to flame each other over???
>
Waterparks are better investments these days than coasters.
Seriously.
-
Alan
Charles Nungester
>I miss some of the cool people that used to post here but I honestly
>thing that a lot of them were bound to get offended sooner or later
>and would have left anyways. The only one I really miss on a daily
>basis is McKenzie.
>
>
>Mike Miller - Finally on the SBC train to DSL nirvana
Hey, I miss Mark, Sean, all the ACE clan that used to share info and
experiences. I used to base trips on where some of them had gone and so on.
Now that info is getting harder to find.
All I can say is this, If the people attacking others can show proof of their
accusations then I don't have much problems with it. The Mindless Jelousy and
spouting off at the mouth though is the real downfall of rrc. Just last week we
had people chastising R.A over his videos that everyone wanted and enjoyed.
Chuck
Charles Nungester
Coasters ridden standing up=3 Mantis, King Cobra and Chang
Coasters riddin sitting down= 213
Dave Althoff Jr
: >Could it be that PKI
: Seriously.
Depends on where you are and what kind of a crowd you draw...and what kind
of a waterpark you put in. Kings Island's original waterpark, for
instance...before the first major renovation...absolutely stunk. Nothing
but slides and concrete. The second try was better...they added a wave
pool, a couple of kiddie areas, a lazy river...and even more concrete.
Now they're finally promising a little bit of shade.....
Anyway, a waterpark has a lot going for it...family appeal, incredible
capacity, popularity, etc. But a waterpark is, I suspect, more
succeptible than a traditional park to uncontrolled variables. Water
slides, for instance, are statistically *much* less safe than normal
amusement rides, and on the whole the waterpark is going to have bigger
liability problems than a ride park. Worse, if you have a summer like the
one we had in Central Ohio this year, a waterpark starts to look like a
*lousy* investment, because a waterpark's popularity declines
significantly when the temperature barely tops 80 degrees in July...
Pam (Coasterace)
Even though this group may have its downfalls, I have gotten to read some
great TR's found helpful information on park visits, and had fun reading all
the crazy rumors that abound! I even got myself an official RRC button, and
I've even got to meet some nice people in person!
I have learned to ignore the flame wars (ok, sometimes if I need a good
laugh I'll read one!) But it is only here on RRC that I learned the wonders
of hot Krispy Kreme donuts, or to enjoy a Steak N Shake.
This is the only newsgroup I read every day and I have been posting/reading
since 1995.
Just my thoughts, maybe someday I'll write a "Everything I needed to know I
learned on RRC" report.
Pam (coasterace)
Robert Mack
maybe 3 or 4 times a week...I am the anomalie :)
www.livejournal.com/~gradvmedusa
"Past this point of no return, your only choice is freeze or burn!"
JH
I started following RRC in 1994, and -- as an active poster -- pretty much
drifted away completely by the end of 1998. I've lurked here on and off since
that time, emerging once a year or so when some topic comes up to which I know I
can contribute something interesting.
For a few reasons that aren't necessarily relevant in the context of this
thread, it's not fair to say that I stopped actively participating due to the
overall quality of the forum. It was certainly in decline, in my opinion, in
terms of signal-to-noise. But it never seemed evident that the entire group
would slide into abandonment, as many of the regulars were clearly in it to the
bitter end. RRC was becoming more of a Toledo OH, perhaps, than a Flint MI.
Okay, raise your hand if you were offended by that last sentence. Thank you.
I met some really fantastic people from this newsgroup, a great many of them in
person at parks and events. But I have to admit, as some of them started to
slowly disappear from the scene, I too found myself drifting off. And the one
daily connection that kept me around began to appear less and less attractive,
making it easier yet to prioritize other things over coaster events. (Note the
distinction between the priority on events, and the priority on roller coasters
in general.)
Zooming from an aggregate view to an indiviudual-focused argument, I was clearly
cupable in some very small way for the decline of good conversation. I'd like
to think that most of my posts were signal, not noise -- and I had stopped
posting, reducing the absolute signal volume by perhaps 1/20 of a percent. So I
wasn't watching RRC and thinking "What's wrong with THEM?" But anyway...
I think the first truly massive flamewar that I can recall occurred when I
accidentally starting the infamous Superman "coaster vs. non-coaster" flamewar
by (literally, just) mentioning the fact that there could be two points of view
on the topic. Clearly there WERE two points of view, and the result is history.
I really do recall having started that, with a truly innocuous post. Sorry,
everyone. It was going to happen anyway...
Up to that point, RRC had seemed like a small community of respectful people,
punctuated only occasionally by a skirmish that caught your attention but didn't
really run over everything. The Superman thread reminded me of being a kid and
watching WWF "wrestling." They always made the Royal Rumble a huge, huge event
-- because after seeing 25 guys (or whatever the body count was) beating each
other up for half an hour, who would want to watch just two guys hopping around
for a couple of minutes? It didn't matter how good they were; there would only
be two of them. Or maybe four. But... meh. There was no matching the huge
melee. When you got together with your friends, you weren't going to sit around
and watch two of them throw each other around. You got EVERYONE into it because
it was more entertaining.
And I remember thinking that the Superman thread was the one that really proved
that you could have a Royal Rumble on RRC -- and maybe there would be more. It
had never crossed my mind before. I was one of those folks posting "Man, I'm
glad this newsgroup isn't like alt.whatever.other-thing, because it's just
totally out of control over there. This must be the most friendly newsgroup
there is." I read somewhere that integrity is like virginity. I think that
applies to group dynamics, too.
Now, maybe other folks started getting a bit uneasy around that time, too. This
is only my experience, after all. But I can give you a tally of the people whom
I know to have posted "I'm leaving RRC forever and I'm never coming back!"
messages, before and after the Superman thread:
BEFORE: 0
AFTER: >>0
Did Superman start the "decline?" No, all of the other crap after it did.
"Oklahoma!" didn't create all of the modern American musicals; it just took the
previous incarnations and perfected the concept of plot exposition through song.
So you can't just blame/credit the first instance of something that might have
inevitably happened anyway. I just remember Superman as the first, that's all.
So why lurk? Well, for all the noise, there was quite a bit of signal, some of
which was disturbingly prophetic. Examples:
John Philip Downing:
>> Of course you could take out the Steel Phantom and put in a decent
>> coaster, or better yet, just take out the loops, the brake on the third
>> hill, and take one lap around Lost Kennywood, and, of course, get some
>> Magnum style trains.
Kip Ross, I think:
> "Chang"...Isn't that the sound of a lift chain breaking?
(courtesy of a Dave A. recollection that matched precisely with mine)
Anyway, the idea of going to a moderated forum to discuss roller coasters seemed
laughable to me. Sports? Politics? Money? Maybe. But not roller coasters.
Come on. If an unmoderated roller coaster forum can't exist in semi-perpetuity,
then humankind is certainly doomed to a fiery grave. And given the way that at
least some of the better-known forums SEEM to be run (disclaimer: some of this
is hearsay), I wasn't at all interested. For every easily ignored flame war,
there would be at least one interesting point of view that would inevitably be
erased by a heavy-handed moderator. Moderated boards CAN work if an appropriate
line is drawn between expression and abuse. I didn't see that happening.
When (if) there is another big building boom in the amusement industry in the
distant future, I think we'll really see what the influence of industry activity
has on RRC activity. It seems reasonable to assume that they ebb and flow in
proportion, with industry activity serving as the independent variable. But
realistically, I think there are multiple factors at work here, and the general
calibre of the posting community has a non-negligible effect on the size of the
participating community. Note that this is not an insult to the current
incarnation of RRC, but rather a testament to the very high quality of
conversation that I first encountered in 1994.
I'd tie this all together, but I'm hungry.
- J
Joe Schwartz
> I put up a simple webpage with the "googleable" posts for each month
> of rec.roller-coaster's existence, along with totals and averages by
> month and year.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/wcoasterpoll/rrcposts.htm
For some more interesting stats and analysis, check out this site:
http://netscan.research.microsoft.com/
Their data only goes back to 2000, but they can do some very cool stuff.
--
Come visit Joyrides -- www.joyrides.com -- a photo gallery celebrating
the joy and beauty of amusement park rides, especially roller coasters!
NASHvlMIKE
>Which of those moderated forums are the most popular? Are they really any
>better
>or just easier for some people to use?
I don't know if the moderated forums are really better... I dislike most of
what I've seen; they tend to be cliquey and their content, for me, is far less
interesting. But then again, I'm not a huge fan of censorship, and some of that
certainly (but not always) happens. And then there's the damned pop-ups on a
few sites....
>Is anyone else struck by the parallels between this trend and the population
>shift
>away from the inner cities that happened in the second half of the 20th
>century?
Not really. Actually I see the "downfall" in RRC to a few things.
a) during the peak years when a lot of enthusiasts, including myself, actually
*met* a lot of other RRC participants in person at parks. Those "key" years
were great in that a lot of people hooked up with each other and now are
enthusiast friends. What this implies is that currently most of us who were
around then now -have- our group of regulars, some more often than others, and
we aren't seeking like kind to hang with as actively. So the social aspect is
less now.
b) The wooden coaster boom is over. Combined with 'a' above, there was much
more to talk about, and more discussion of coasters. Relating also to 'a', most
topics that we used to discuss online are talked about in those groups of
friends now at parks, and honestly, there's only so many times one can describe
Rampages ending, say, before everone has heard it. The steel coasters being
built aren't really that exciting because one record breaker follows another.
When was the last time something really good was built, that didn't depend on
size or speed. It's been a while. B&M can still do something sweet, but the
glory days of Montu, Fire Dragon and Hulk are in the rear view mirror. I don't
see as many people getting excited about the flying coasters (yawnnn) and
again, there's just less to discuss.
c) The troll factor and also those who are too chickenshit to handle strong
opinions both factor in too. Some people go elsewhere, which is fine, and of
course with the growing popularity of the internet any kid whose bored can go
make up some stupid screen name and insult people for "fun" and "entertainment"
on any of the usenet groups. Just gotta learn to ignore those.
>What are the prospects for "urban renewal" here at rec.roller-coaster?
Not great, if you want the old days. Between the enthusiass, the trolls, and
the very reality of what I described, RRC will never return to it's "glory
days", so to speak, and neither will the coaster enthusiast hobby for the most
part. This doesn't mean that we can't have fun, but a certain segment of the
population, now that the enthusiast population in general has grown so much, is
ruining it for a lot of people, and I'm not just talking about a few crazy
posts on RRC.
But RRC still goes on. I may not post as much simply because there may not be
as much to talk about. But I still enjoy the trip reports, and if we ever have
another wooden coaster boom (we may not), I'm sure there will be more to talk
about then.
Also we have to factor in that right now is skittish-times to be an enthusiast.
I've always been a huge proponent of free speech and lack of censorship, but at
times I've wondered if it's right to play the "party line" and soften things,
or do what I normally do and let things roll. WAY too many people, including
some who should know a HELL of a lot better, take subjective commentary way too
seriously and blame too much on it. They need a reality check. But who knows,
the fine line between tact and opinion is a tough one for me for sure, and in
most cases I've chosen opinion over tact, and personally I'll most likely carry
on as usual.
>Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that the signal to noise ratio will ever
>again
>approach what it once was here. Ironically, the private forums I have seen
>do not
>seem to be a whole lot better in this regard.
Nope. Those days are done. But you know, back in my first wave of enthusiast
hobby days, people were complaining the "hobby was ruined" 10+ years ago. It
(the hobby) changes, and as long as I'm having fun and have friends in the
hobby, I'm sticking with it. If not, there's always other things to do.
My usual .05 worth
- Mike
HHNmeetOct19@IOAstay&screamArea
2000 was the year of the coaster.
Ever since, it's been downhill with parks putting in family rides.
It's the same thing that happened with Vegas. They put in all new
hotels, everyone came, they saw, and now it's no big deal.
I flew 4 times in 2000.
Last year only twice.
Next year it might be only once.
Same thing around here. In 2000 there we're hundreds of posts about
MF, this board really moved. Now, it's dead, and so are the web based
message boards. In 2000 we had Thrillride with the whopper of the
week. Now I barely even check thrillnetwork.com because it moves so
slow and there's not much to talk about.
Next year, there's about 4 major rides planned in the USA. That's not
much to talk about.
Locoboy
> Anyway, a waterpark has a lot going for it...family appeal, incredible
> capacity, popularity, etc. But a waterpark is, I suspect, more
> succeptible than a traditional park to uncontrolled variables. Water
> slides, for instance, are statistically *much* less safe than normal
> amusement rides, and on the whole the waterpark is going to have bigger
> liability problems than a ride park. Worse, if you have a summer like the
> one we had in Central Ohio this year, a waterpark starts to look like a
> *lousy* investment, because a waterpark's popularity declines
> significantly when the temperature barely tops 80 degrees in July...
I would imagine that it's harder to fully staff a waterpark too since many of
the employees must be certified life guards.
PINK FLOYD FANATIC
> "Joe Schwartz" <j...@joyrides.com> wrote in message
> news:hh07ovs6mrucssoen...@4ax.com...
> > Wcoast...@yahoo.com (Mitch Hawker) wrote:
> >
> > > any better or just easier for some people to use?
> >
> think
> > moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to see a
> > forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe enforced
> > using credit card authentication). In my experience, most people tend to
> > behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
> >
> The one place where moderation excels is that disagreements rarely, if ever,
> spill over into threads outside of the thread where a disagreement occurred.
> On the other hand, that problem is fairly common here on RRC, and has been a
> problem for several years now.
>
> proper ending--thread locked/topic closed immediately!
>
> For example, I cannot find any recent threads on Westcoaster.net,
> CoasterBuzz.com, nor America Coasters Network.com where a disagreement in a
> specific thread was a spillover or vendetta carried over from another thread
> where two or more users disagreed. The disagreements stay in the thread with
> the disagreements, and the next thread(s) are good discussion or may even
> have new disagreements, but those disagreements are not carryovers from
> previous threads.
>
> In comparison, I can find multiple threads on RRC where other users were
> given negative mentions in others' trip reports where said person was not
> even at that event... or other users were brought up in a discussion thread
> they did not even start or participate in... or another brand new topic
> thread was trolled as continuation of the disagreement from another thread
> moderated forum, this would result in an admin warning, admin edit/post
> edited, or admin edit/post deleted.
>
> That is why moderated forums are better--it's not about closing the gates
> and locking out members of the community. In fact, community membership is
> open and free with any username and a valid e-mail address (as long as the
> pop-up ads can also be tolerated, of course). From what I can tell, it's
> about keeping members in check who arguably, need to be kept in check via
> strict moderation. It's about community norms and standards, with the help
> of the moderator who rarely ever acts "dictatorial" from what I can see.
>
> And yes, even CoasterBuzz.com has a far worse reputation here on RRC than it
> deserves... its moderation "problems" are much more exaggerated than they
> actually are, and any thread locked/topic closed issues I've observed are
> usually due to topic redundancy (recently discussed)
Have you seen my recent post on RRC last week asking about SFI money
problems and when they would be able to build new coasters agains?
I've posted the same thing before on CB and Jeff didn't like my
wishlist asking for an O&B airtime hyper in a park with a 9 month
season or longer with all of the good ones in short season parks like
CP, WOF, SFNE. Anyway Jeff didn't like it so he closed the thread
before I got a good answer about SFI finanacial crisis and he replied
"This reeks of a wishlist!" then after a few days the thread was
completely gone! :-( I couldn't undertand why he deleted it or what I
did to violate HIS TOS. URC and most other moderated forum will only
close a thread if there is anything offensive, flaming, or if it is a
repeated subject they usually will give you a thread to continue the
discussion. Also my "wishlist" wasn't asking for a "300 foot Intamin"
woodie or a 700 foot nonlooping steelie or anything that hasn't been
built before. Just something in the lines of Magnum or better yet an
AC or SROS@SFNE type hyper that would not be closed for more than 3
months of the year. Closing and deleting threads for no real reason
other that a difference in opinions is NO way to run a message boards.
Good modderated forums are like URC, Theme Park Critic (which also
includes a special board with COMPLETE freedom of speech including
flaming anyone and using offensive language!), The Point Online,
Thrillnetwork, and CoasterNet to name a few. My SFI post which was
also posted here asking about the ability to build coasters again
would most likely NOT be closed or deleted on these boards other than
CB!
, off-topic trolling, or
> turning a thread into a personal conversation where e-mail or IM is more
> appropriate.
>
> All this is, of course, IMHO.
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
"PINK FLOYD FANATIC" <kevind...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:edcd9d14.03100...@posting.google.com...
> "Daniel W. Rouse Jr." <dwro...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:<10655912...@news-1.nethere.net>...
[snip...]
No, I guess I didn't see your post. Maybe the header didn't download or
something. I know for sure you aren't on my Blocked Senders list.
And, I didn't say that CB was completely without issues--but for the most
part, topics that get closed seem to be done without excessive bias, at
least during the times I've read CB.
I really don't think I'd want all the discussion forums to have unlimited
flaming and offensive language, though, since after a while it seems futile
to even try any more civil discussion with a bunch of users that seem to be
constant trolls and/or flame warriors. There has to be some preservation of
some sort of decent conversation somewhere--something like a balance between
free speech and fair moderation of the tone (but not necessarily the
content, unless it's clearly trolling or antagonizing) of that free speech.
Finally, I'm sure we all have our favorite boards to read--moderated or
unmoderated. I guess I tend to favor reading ACN because SFMM and KBF are
"home parks" based on the distance I live from both parks. Note that I
haven't yet joined that board... for now, I just read it.
[snip...]
Keith Hopkins
wrote in message news:mgp9ovo7i9gttqdg5...@4ax.com...
> Actually, this week is NOT always connected to PPPPP. In some years,
PPPPP
> falls in the second weekend in October, as it will next year.
Verified. The Covered Bridge Festival runs October 8th through 10th in
2004. I saw it on their Covered Bridge flyer, after specifically looking
for it.
Mitch Hawker
coasters if you shift the coasters back one year. 2000 was the biggest year
numbers-wise (there were a dozen or so worldwide) for new wood coasters and
1999 was the biggest traffic year on r.r-c.
August of 1999 was the busiest month with 10,000 posts to r.r-c. How many
of the new for 2000 wood coasters were known to the r.r-c community by
August 1999?
It is interesting to note that July/August of 1999 had almost exactly three
times as many posts as those two months in 2003. 19830/6660
Flare
Your post was a very interesting one; but the very thread that you put
out there was countered by evidence of Knoebel's this past weekend.
There was a really solid contingent of RRC die hards. It not only was
good to see everybody there, but it truly re-affirmed to me what a
wonderful place this is. Everyone who comes together from these streets
is seem to be genuinely good, in my humble opion.
Regardless of my position on the "Status Quo", your contributions to our
insane obsessions with coasters, and how they stack up, are utterly
appreciated. :-)
Don't be such a stranger!
Dave
- Next year she'll whisper my message at the right moment...
Mrdaffy2000
OH well. any have a new RRC site? I hope this site will stay open
thanks.
Kenny R.
Dave Althoff Jr
: is this site closeding? I hope not.
: OH well. any have a new RRC site? I hope this site will stay open
: thanks.
Site? What site?
That's the great thing about USENET. As long as there is at least one
news server out there still chugging away, USENET will survive. For a web
site to go away it requires only that somebody pull the plug on one
server. USENET is distributed around the world, so it's a bit more
robust, albeit sometimes harder to get to.
Wolf
>
> Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
> 1991-11
> 1992-54
> 1993-63
> 1994-90
> 1995-159
> 1996-376
> 1997-611
> 1998-1320
> 1999-1480
> 2000-1370
> 2001-759
> 2002-695
> 2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
>
before and
> that more of them are online than ever before....so people must be moving
to the
> private/moderated forums from r.r-c in large numbers.
>
> Which of those moderated forums are the most popular? Are they really any
better
> or just easier for some people to use?
>
population shift
> away from the inner cities that happened in the second half of the 20th
century?
forums.
>
> What are the prospects for "urban renewal" here at rec.roller-coaster?
Well, the really early growth can be discounted as the Internet was still
young. 1997 on makes a better comparison as far as saturation.
Past that, I would say it's primarily related to a decrease in building.
1999 and 2000 really were hallmark years for the industry. 2001 and on not
so much.
heck, one of my other groups, alt.movies.monster, was getting 200 posts/day
leading up to and just after Godzilla '98. Since then, it's dwindled down to
10 or so posts a day, less on a bad day. It's all a matter of having
something to say.
--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf
Wolf
> events this fall...OkBoulderfest & PPP!
Spatch lives!
Spatch has a 50% attendance rate at coaster events I go to, if that says
anything.
--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf [Full of Spatch-y goodness!]
Wolf
> > any better or just easier for some people to use?
>
think
> moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to see a
> forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe enforced
> using credit card authentication). In my experience, most people tend to
> behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
So how do we know "Joe Schwartz" is your real name?
<G>
--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf [Not my real name.]
Wolf
were
> > >given negative mentions in others' trip reports where said person was
not
> > >even at that event... or other users were brought up in a discussion
> thread
> > >they did not even start or participate in... or another brand new topic
> > >thread was trolled as continuation of the disagreement from another
> thread
> > >(this is where people basically show they have a personal vendetta).
> >
> >
>
> Walt's Lawsuit Index: 14
What's this on a scale of?
Is it like a Richter scale?
[Where a 14 means a Supreme Court Justice travels down to your Mexican
prison closet to personally urinate upon you.]
Wolf
me. I
> feel so alone.
>
> OMG, is this serious???? Comparing what amounts to a three year spike in
RRC
> posts to 50 years of population changes and growth in the U.S. What?!!?!
>
> I am literally at a loss for words on this one, primarily because it seems
so
> silly. I guess it bothers me because it falls right into those "I'm
leaving
> RRC" or "RRC ain't as good as it used to be" threads that we all love. It
> demeans those of us who still "live" here.
I'll say this:
In 7 years of reading Usenet on a bunch of groups, I can count on one hand
all the people who have publicly left a group whom I miss.
Cripes, now we have lurkers publically announcing their departure.
I should join the bandwagon and pre-emptively leave alt.foo.bar [exists]...
Wolf
news:20031008185811...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> Remember at one point I was posting probably like 15+ times a day...now I
post
> maybe 3 or 4 times a week...I am the anomalie :)
Ain't that the truth...
--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf ;)
Wolf
I think this should be clarified though:
Waterparks, where there was no waterpark before, are better investments than
coasters.
Upgrading an existing waterpark is something of a crapshoot.
JJMailman
> So how do we know "Joe Schwartz" is your real name?
I think he has it on his business card.
Jeff (aka jjmailman)
Wolf
> opened worldwide in the amusement industry. I wonder if all the most
> exciting technological developments in coasters are in fact behind us?
> Have the limits of the human body been met?
Ha!
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
In 1974, no major advancement, beyond that of steel tube track and
dual-guide wheel carriers had occured in the coaster industry amidst a
general backslide since the late 1920s.
Then we got the loop, which was coming back, and the Corkscrew, which was
new -- in two years.
In 1988, not much had been created since 1976.
Then we got hypers, inverteds, a refined standup, and all the nonsense of
the 90s.
So it's hard to say. It's rather a punctuated equilibrium.
As far as human limits -- we're at the same Gs or lower that we were at 80
years ago.
Sandy A. Nicolaysen
wrote:
Joe is the bastard son of Dana and Dooley Schwartz who was sent to a
boarding school in Albany. He's still doing his Billy Crystal look
alike imitations. Af far as I know, he never visits his parents in
South Brunswick NJ anymore.
- Sandy
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
news:BticnX7cnq7...@giganews.com...
Arrow 4D-style would be totally awesome.
(Standup floorless has already been done on drop rides [Acrophobia] and flat
rides [KMG Tango] so far.)
Worlds Apart...
Usenet isn't a website.
--
şoş
#DisneylandResort Chat & 100% DisneyTrivia Bot:
http://dumptv.com/disneychat
#RCTycoon: RCT1/RCT2 Live Chat & Scenarios by NEM
http://dumptv.com/rctycoon
Dana Schwartz
Hey!!! Joe may be a bastard, but he ain't *our* kid. Not unless I
got pregnant when I was 11 years old (seven years before I met
Dooley!) and forgot all about it somehow.
We (Dooley and I) chose not to have kids. Good thing, too, 'cause
we'd probably have accidently left them in some midwest park by now.
Then they would've been raised by the Whack-a-Mole guy and destined to
a life working the carney circuit.
Joe's real parents do live in NJ, but not in South Brunswick. And
neither do we! We're in North Brunswick, just south of New Brunswick,
west of East Brunswick and north of South Brunswick. :-)
Dana Schwartz (child free by choice -- the odds of producing a
'keeper' were too risky, in my estimation; your "mileage may vary",
and I hope it does! :-) )
Joe Schwartz
> > I have no idea, because I don't read or post to any of them. I don't
> > think moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to
> > see a forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe
> > enforced using credit card authentication). In my experience, most
> > people tend to behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
>
> So how do we know "Joe Schwartz" is your real name?
I realize you're being facetious, but that question illustrates the
problem. You *don't* know that Joe Schwartz is my real name. You don't
even know that I'm the same person who usually posts as Joe Schwartz.
Usenet has no mechanism for authentication, and it's too easy to change the
name that you post under, or to impersonate someone else.
Keith Hopkins
> > > >In comparison, I can find multiple threads on RRC where other users
> were
> > > >given negative mentions in others' trip reports where said person was
> not
> > > >even at that event... or other users were brought up in a discussion
> > thread
> > > >they did not even start or participate in... or another brand new
topic
> > > >thread was trolled as continuation of the disagreement from another
> > thread
> > > >(this is where people basically show they have a personal vendetta).
> > >
> > >
> > > Basically, he's whining that people pick on him.
> >
> > Walt's Lawsuit Index: 14
>
> What's this on a scale of?
HO. Too big for N.
> Is it like a Richter scale?
> [Where a 14 means a Supreme Court Justice travels down to your Mexican
> prison closet to personally urinate upon you.]
Stop trying to turn me on like that.
--
Keith "my sig was never more accurate" Hopkins
Shawn Mamros
>Apparently, the CBF varied based on some other factors. Shawn once posted
>what those factors for those who are curious.
What it all boils down to is that CBF/PPP weekend always falls the
fifth weekend after Labor Day. Labor Day was as early as it can be
this year (Sept. 1); therefore, CBF/PPP was also early. Next year,
Labor Day is Sept. 6, so CBF is Oct. 8-10 and PPP is Oct. 9.
Depending on when Labor Day falls, PPP can be as early as Oct. 4
(as it was this year), or as late as Oct. 10. Just remember the
4th and the 10th as being the two ends of the range, then look at
the calendar and find out where Saturday falls in that range, and
you can figure out PPP day for any given year.
It's a heck of a lot easier than figuring out when Easter Sunday
(or Palm Sunday, if you frequently visit Coney Island) happens...
-Shawn Mamros (who, from a quick Google check, has been making
a post like this every year for the past few years - hey, it's
tradition ;-)
E-mail to: mamros -at- mit dot edu
Dave Althoff Jr
: Joe's real parents do live in NJ, but not in South Brunswick. And
: neither do we! We're in North Brunswick, just south of New Brunswick,
: west of East Brunswick and north of South Brunswick. :-)
Just out of curiosity...
Are there a lot of bowlers in New Jersey? 8-)
Todd Long
>- Next year she'll whisper my message at the right moment...
Hell, she'd have been lucky to have enough control at that point to
scratch her nose.
Todd "the Fall" Long
"have a Good Day and be happy go ride a Ride that
make you happy and yell." - Kenny June 7, 2003
Dave Althoff Jr
: > So how do we know "Joe Schwartz" is your real name?
: I realize you're being facetious, but that question illustrates the
: problem. You *don't* know that Joe Schwartz is my real name. You don't
: even know that I'm the same person who usually posts as Joe Schwartz.
: Usenet has no mechanism for authentication, and it's too easy to change the
: name that you post under, or to impersonate someone else.
On the other hand, consistency both in writing and in headers will
generally lead to a high probability that two messages were written by the
same person. And when you have a large sample size, as is the case for
people who have been contributing to r.r-c for a while (people, well, like
Joe, for example. Or me, for that matter) a message starts to have its
own fingerprint. You can look at a message and know fairly quickly that a
particular person wrote it. You can look at two messages and see that
they were both written by the same person. Or that they weren't. You
might not be able to positively identify a Usenet poster...that is, you
might not know for certain that Joe Schwartz is Joe's real name. But you
can be reasonably certain that all those messages came from the *same* Joe
Schwartz.
Even if his real name happens to be Mike Higgins. 8-)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Whose real name is Dave Althoff, Jr. And who is pretty certain that Joe
Schwartz's real name is Joe Schwartz. 8-)
Dana Schwartz
wrote:
>Dana Schwartz (danasc...@optonlineXXX.net) wrote:
>
>: Joe's real parents do live in NJ, but not in South Brunswick. And
>: neither do we! We're in North Brunswick, just south of New Brunswick,
>: west of East Brunswick and north of South Brunswick. :-)
>
>Just out of curiosity...
>
>Are there a lot of bowlers in New Jersey? 8-)
Yeah, I guess so. Matter of fact, PBA's Johnny Petraglia Open is
broadcast live on ESPN from Brunswick Zone Carolier Lanes right here
in North Brunswick, NJ! :-) I think there have been a number of
tournaments held there over the years.
We have a roller rink down the road in Kendall Park, too. Just an ol'
fashioned kinda place, New Jersey.
Dana Schwartz (not a bowler)
E-Stop-1
Sorry, strange movie reference.
Estopone
"Where's Tony?"
"Peter Griffin For President in 2005"
Swervo
> I have no idea, because I don't read or post to any of them. I don't think
> moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to see a
> forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe enforced
> using credit card authentication). In my experience, most people tend to
> behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
That may be true, but it's not always true. When I first started
playing on the net, usenet in particular, it was considered somewhat
dangerous to use your real name. I was on a MUD somewhere when a
guy asked my friend for her real name. He got it, and between that
and her UCSD hostname, he came back 2 minutes later with her SSN and
home address. That was our warning not to use our real names.
Obviously, things were less crowded then, you get more security
today through obscurity, and systems are obviously more secure now
than 10 years ago, when security just wasn't as much of an issue.
Nonetheless, most of the people I know online know me by my psuedonym,
so I have no intention of changing it. That being said, I don't think
you'll find that I would generally be classified as a troll. In the
same vein, one of the very much missed members of this newsfroup (I
knew him from alt.stupidity all so long ago) was Spatch, and he posted
under a psuedonym as well.
I honestly don't think it makes that much of a difference. If it
makes you feel any better, my name is Brian Nilsen. I just like
Swervo because it combines my psuedonym Tom Servo (yeah, real
original, I know) and my inability to drive a race car ;)
Dave Althoff Jr
: Joe Schwartz wrote:
: > I have no idea, because I don't read or post to any of them. I don't think
: > moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to see a
: > forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe enforced
: > using credit card authentication). In my experience, most people tend to
: > behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
: That may be true, but it's not always true. When I first started
: playing on the net, usenet in particular, it was considered somewhat
: dangerous to use your real name. I was on a MUD somewhere when a
: guy asked my friend for her real name. He got it, and between that
: and her UCSD hostname, he came back 2 minutes later with her SSN and
: home address. That was our warning not to use our real names.
---------->8==========
: Nonetheless, most of the people I know online know me by my psuedonym,
: so I have no intention of changing it. That being said, I don't think
: you'll find that I would generally be classified as a troll. In the
: same vein, one of the very much missed members of this newsfroup (I
: knew him from alt.stupidity all so long ago) was Spatch, and he posted
: under a psuedonym as well.
...And I wonder if that isn't quite what Joe has in mind. Spatch! is a
good example...if he walked up to you and said, "Hi, I'm ___ _____!" you'd
probably stand there thinking, "So?". On the other hand, if he says, "Hi,
I'm Spatch!" you'd immediately know a thing or two about him, and either
respond in kind, or run away screaming. 8-)
Whether a real name or a pseudonym, it's a positive identity. A person
has an identity. And even if it is a pseudonym, it's a pseudonym that
identifies the participant.
Where it becomes a problem is when the pseudonym ceases to be an identity.
When a user takes advantage of the ability to use throwaway accounts and
opts not to have an identity, that's when he can start to really cause
problems. As we've seen here.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Joe Schwartz
> Whether a real name or a pseudonym, it's a positive identity. A person
> has an identity. And even if it is a pseudonym, it's a pseudonym that
> identifies the participant.
>
> Where it becomes a problem is when the pseudonym ceases to be an identity.
> When a user takes advantage of the ability to use throwaway accounts and
> opts not to have an identity, that's when he can start to really cause
> problems. As we've seen here.
That's part of the problem. The other part is that many people use a
pseudonym to avoid taking responsibility for their posts in the "real
world".
Swervo
> That's part of the problem. The other part is that many people use a
> pseudonym to avoid taking responsibility for their posts in the "real
> world".
Now, to bring two responses into one, and I'll copy a quote of Dave's
post:
<quote>
...And I wonder if that isn't quite what Joe has in mind. Spatch! is a
good example...if he walked up to you and said, "Hi, I'm ___ _____!" you'd
probably stand there thinking, "So?". On the other hand, if he says, "Hi,
I'm Spatch!" you'd immediately know a thing or two about him, and either
respond in kind, or run away screaming. 8-)
</quote>
Sounds like exactly what Joe is saying.
Now, I've yet to meet anybody from any coaster group. However, I've
met a number of people from other experiences, from the MUDs I talked
about in my last post to a number of auto racing buddies through a
message board I help admin. The thing is, I'm never going to show
up to an event, run into Joe, and say "Hi, I'm Brian!" Maybe I would,
but always with the "Swervo on the newsfroup." I find that pretty
much anybody else I've *EVER* met from online does exactly the same.
That destroys the lack of accountability. Psuedonyms do nothing to
destroy anything. The people who have the "poor behaviour"
described don't show up to events, never meet people, and essentially
are non-entities. The thing is, even with their real names, they're
still non-entities. How many of us are going to look up their names
in a phone book and try to track them down for some stupid trolling
post they made here? Beyond that, and referring to an earlier post,
what's to stop someone from hijacking someone else's real identity
and post a fake post? I mean, it's no harder to use someone's real
name rather than their psuedonym, in fact, it might even be harder
if the victim is using a psuedonym...they might be more likely to
verify their real name whereas a troll stealing the psuedonym might
not be able to.
I'm sure this is all very defensive, but I hate to think that there
are members of this community (which I'm admittedly not as involved
in as I'd like to be) that would consider me a less valuable member
because I happen to enjoy my psuedonym. Believe me when I say that
I won't just randonly change my psuedonym (or at least, not change
it to anything that can't be traced to the original, i.e., going
from "Servo" to "Swervo"), and that, when introduced, will say
"I'm Brian, Swervo on R.R-C."
I've gone far too long on a completely off-topic subject, so I'll
let others hash out a few responses before again spouting off
on relatively unimportant topics :)
Swervo
Also known as Brian.
Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
: I haven't been a frequent contributor or visitor here in many years, but the
: newsgroup seemed less busy than I remembered it on this visit.
(Snip)
: I am guessing that there are as many or more enthusiasts in 2003 as ever
: before and that more of them are online than ever before....so people
: must be moving to the private/moderated forums from r.r-c in large
: numbers.
*** I can't speak for them, but I site a number of possible factors:
1/ The number of TV reports and shows on coasters/amusement park has
dwindled, so fewre of the gerenal public have such things on their minds
and thus may frequent this group less with their questions.
2/ The posts have had a certain sameness to them in recent years and
perhaps the regulars have tired of participating. This is a factor for me.
3/ For a while, the trolls and annoying posters were getting excessive and
that may have turned some off.
4/ Perhaps there is less interest in posting on line. It's old enough now
that the luster has worn off and so people tend to respond only to the
posts in which they are truly interested. This is a factor for me, as
well. I used to put in my 2 cents for many posts. Now I let a lot of them
slide.
5/ For those who still like on-line stuff, perhaps their interests have
diversified. I now participate in several more Usenet groups than I did in
the 1990s.
6/ Perhaps people's personal lives are taking up more of their time. This
is a big factor for me. I now maintain four websites, three of which are
very large and detailed. I also have been spending more time with my
business because I have fewer employees than I did in the 1990s. As well,
Hurricane Juan put a big dent in things here, which is why I have been
away for the last 2.5 weeks. (A lot of my business got damaged.)
: Is anyone else struck by the parallels between this trend and the
: population shift away from the inner cities that happened in the second
:half of the 20th century? Moving to the suburbs/gated communities vs.
: moving to private/moderated forums.
*** I don't site that as a factor, at least here in Canada. For over a
decade, Canada has had a mandate to provide Internet service to everyone,
so most rural areas have access. Some private servers now provide it with
no long distance charges. The moves of which you speak, might actually
be a factor for people to *get* Internet service, if they have isolated
themselves from others physically. When telephones were new, rural areas
wanted them to reduce isolation.
: What are the prospects for "urban renewal" here at rec.roller-coaster?
*** Not sure what you mean, but it might help if all posters here whom
have websites, placed an rrc link on them. I am also amazed at the number
of Internet users whom know nothing of Usenet. If more people knew about
it, more would participate, some of whom would end up here.
: Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that the signal to noise ratio will
: ever again approach what it once was here. Ironically, the private
: forums I have seen do not seem to be a whole lot better in this regard.
*** It depends. If there's a really good topic that the regulars here
can sink their teeth into, then the signal will improve. However, as I
mentioned, many of the good subjects have already been covered and few
wish to rehash them again - at least not as in depth as the first time.
Richard Bonner
Managing Director:
The Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
www.CEC.chebucto.org
Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
: I don't think
: moderation is the answer to poor behavior. However, I'd like to see a
: forum where everyone is required to use their real names (maybe enforced
: using credit card authentication). In my experience, most people tend to
: behave better when they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym.
*** Good point. Joe. However, given the number of spammers, identity
thiefs, and frightening people out there, I understand why some people
prefer to reason anonymous.
Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
: I'm still here and not going anywhere..
*** Nor I.
: This group is quite informative, quite interesting, has many regulars
: with great stories, cool and plentiful TRs, tons of information and some
: womnderful advice on parks, coasters, rides and just amusement history
: in general.
*** Yup.
: It's usenet.. trolls and opinions and rants and fun.. come with the
: territory.
*** I agree, and little of the bad stuff bothers me.
: RRC is one of my favorite NGs.. and IMO (even though i have never met
: anyone from this NG in person) this NG has more good, nice, informative
: and welcoming people than almost every other NG i've frequented or
: presently frequent.
*** I can only think of one other of the groups to which I belong which
has as friendly people: hfx.general. Still, all groups have selfish,
discourteous, jerks.
Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
: Mitch Hawker <Wcoast...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: >Posts between October 1st and 7th in the year:
: >1991-11
: >1992-54
: >1993-63
: >1994-90
: >1995-159
: >1996-376
: >1997-611
: >1998-1320
: >1999-1480
: >2000-1370
: >2001-759
: >2002-695
: >2003-470 (Sept 29-Oct 5)
: I wonder if some of those 1997-2002 numbers might have been inflated by
: a flamewar or two going on at that particular moment.
*** Nope! It was the "Millennium" threads! (-:
: IMO, r.r-c has
: actually gotten better along those lines lately; people seem to be
: getting better about letting trolls and other obvious flamebait pass
: by. (Though the reduction in flames could also be a function of a
: reduction in posts overall...)
: -Shawn Mamros
*** Regardless, ignoring trolls is the best way to get rid of them.