Amtrak routes over 79mph?
John Lee
track speed is above 79mph (implying cab signals). Aside from the obvious
DC-NYC-BOS & Philly-Harrisburg routes, I recently learned of NYC-Albany &
LA-San Diego. My question: what other routes fall into this category, and what
are the top speeds of these lines?
--
John Lee (Awk-Man)
Sys/Tools Admin, RSA program
Harris Corp - HISD
E-mail: jl...@harris.com
D. Andrew Byler
by John L...@sursadc.NoSubdo
where the
> track speed is above 79mph (implying cab signals). Aside from the obvious
> DC-NYC-BOS & Philly-Harrisburg routes, I recently learned of NYC-Albany &
> LA-San Diego. My question: what other routes fall into this category,
and what
> are the top speeds of these lines?
Much of the Santa Fe (route of the Southwest Chief) is maintained for a
track speed of 90 mph. Check out some of the very fast running times
for between stations on this route.
Some of the Illinois Central used to be 90 mph in downstate Illinois,
but I think the single tracking of this route eliminated this stretch of
raceway. The only other possibly >80 lines I can think of are the
Chicago-Milwaukee route, which I had thought was also 90 mph, and the
RF&P which I think is the same speed. I am not sure if these last two
are actually that fast though.
Andy Byler
Rich Weyand
>Some of the Illinois Central used to be 90 mph in downstate Illinois,
>but I think the single tracking of this route eliminated this stretch of
>raceway. The only other possibly >80 lines I can think of are the
>Chicago-Milwaukee route, which I had thought was also 90 mph, and the
>RF&P which I think is the same speed. I am not sure if these last two
>are actually that fast though.
Chicago to Milwaukee is 79 mph, per Bill Pistello who is the CPRail
signal maintainer for most of that line.
Rich Weyand | _______ ___,---. ---+_______:_ |Rich Weyand
Weyand Associates| |_N_&_W_| |_N_&_W_| |__|________|_ |TracTronics
Comm Consultants | ooo ooo ~ ooo ooo ~ oOOOO- OOOO=o\ |Model RR Electronics
wey...@mcs.com |http://www.mcs.net/~weyand/home.html |wey...@mcs.com
Fred Hyde
Ted C Dorsey
>
>>Some of the Illinois Central used to be 90 mph in downstate Illinois,
>>but I think the single tracking of this route eliminated this stretch of
>>raceway. The only other possibly >80 lines I can think of are the
>>Chicago-Milwaukee route, which I had thought was also 90 mph, and the
>>RF&P which I think is the same speed. I am not sure if these last two
>>are actually that fast though.
>
Santa Fe route from LA to San Diego (route of the San Diegans) is or was 90
mph.
Ted.
Matthew Johnson
>Santa Fe route from LA to San Diego (route of the San Diegans) is or was 90
>mph.
>Ted.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall the LA-San Diego route
being considered for 110 mph service. Of course, this was merely one of many
high-speed (sort of) proposals being thrown around.
John W. Baxter
Johnson) wrote:
This considering has been going on for a long time, for parts of the route
(eg, Galivan to east Santa Ana). In that territory, 10 years ago,
literally all that would have been needed was driving one additional spike
per tie per rail. The signals were already spaced for 110 (the old 100
limit plus the historic AT&SF 10% overspeed allowance for late first class
trains).
It got close enough to happening at one point that AT&SF lowered several
speed limits throughout the run (increasing the *acutal* no-cheating time
for a train without meets up from 2:25 (scheduled 2:35) to about 2:34, and
raising the no-meets schedule to 2:45. AT&SF really didn't want the route
to succeed like it has.
--John
--
John Baxter Port Ludlow, WA, USA [West shore, Puget Sound]
Sorry...clever signatures require cleverness, not found here.
jwba...@pt.olympus.net
John W. Baxter
> The Metrolink/San Diego Northern line between Fullerton and San Diego has
> several stretches that are posted for 90MPH (55MPH freight), but its
> hard to judge speed since mileposts are difficult to spot (some are
> knocked down/missing) and freeway traffic doesn't do 55MPH along the
> tracks either. My impression is that the tracks are capable of 90MPH
> and the ATS is there, but Amtrak may be limited by general order to 79MPH.
If you're keeping up with the freeway traffic, you're doing upper 70s...if
pulling ahead you're doing better than that.
On that part of AT&SF (unless the ownership changes have already changed
this, you don't really need the mileposts. You can use the little numbers
painted on every 5th "telephone" pole at wayside (cycle back to the same
number again is one mile). Or just count the poles (at 35 to the mile).
[There aren't many long or short miles on the route, but enough that the
occasional "oddball" milepost timing shouldn't make you toss the watch out
the window.]
Ronald Lehmer
The Metrolink/San Diego Northern line between Fullerton and San Diego has
several stretches that are posted for 90MPH (55MPH freight), but its
hard to judge speed since mileposts are difficult to spot (some are
knocked down/missing) and freeway traffic doesn't do 55MPH along the
tracks either. My impression is that the tracks are capable of 90MPH
and the ATS is there, but Amtrak may be limited by general order to 79MPH.
================================================================================
Ronald Lehmer LEH...@FUSION.UCLA.EDU
Institute of Plasma and Fusion Research, University of California, Los Angeles
"Nothing travels faster than the speed of light, with the possible exception
of bad news, which obeys its own set of laws." - D. Adams
================================================================================
Rob Landry
>From: Fred Hyde <Fred...@f4052.fido.tdkt.mn.org>
>Date: Tue, 01 Nov 94 09:30:28 -0600
>Subject: Amtrak routes over 79mph?
>I believe that Amtrak's routes over Santa Fe (at least east of La Junta, CO) are certified and equipped for 90 mph operation. Automatic train stop is in service on this line.
I rode the Southwest Chief from Los Angeles to Chicago a couple of weeks ago.
In an onboard announcement a crew member said the train's maximum speed on
that route would indeed be 90 mph.
Tony Burzio
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall the LA-San Diego route
>being considered for 110 mph service. Of course, this was merely one of many
>high-speed (sort of) proposals being thrown around.
Only on the rural section of the route, about 1/5 of the distance. The
upper part near LA is all yards and switches, and the San Diego section
runs through beaches, with people all around. The cliffs at Del Mar will
*NOT* support high speed rail traffic, since they are essentially soft
sandstone... The current Amtrak trains don't go at max speed, so why
get a faster train set?
Tony Burzio
AETC
San Diego, CA
Mark Johnson
>I was suprised to learn that Amtrak has routes on several rail lines where the
>track speed is above 79mph (implying cab signals). Aside from the obvious
>DC-NYC-BOS & Philly-Harrisburg routes, I recently learned of NYC-Albany &
>LA-San Diego. My question: what other routes fall into this category, and what
>are the top speeds of these lines?
The old Santa Fe "Super Chief" passenger line, from central Kansas westward,
is mostly 90 mph. A few segments east of KC are also, I think. My ATSF
timetable is at home, but I remember for certain that 90 is the max west of
Hutchinson, Kansas until near Raton Pass, then again through most of New
Mexico and Arizona. Freights run this territory at 70 mph unless they are
heavy.
========================
Mark Johnson USnail: AT&T Global Information Solutions
E-mail: Mark.J...@WichitaKS.NCR.COM Peripheral Products Business Unit
Voice: (316) 636-8189 [V+654-8189] 3718 N. Rock Rd.
Wichita, KS 67226
ps...@po.cwru.edu
> > upper part near LA is all yards and switches, and the San Diego section
> > runs through beaches, with people all around. The cliffs at Del Mar will
> > *NOT* support high speed rail traffic, since they are essentially soft
> > sandstone... The current Amtrak trains don't go at max speed, so why
> > get a faster train set?
>
> weight of the train, and speed does not effect train weight. In fact,
> creeping by slower would seem to make it worse, since the weight of the
> train will be on that part of the cliff for a longer period of time.
> Can some one correct me if I am misrepresenting the geotechnical
> engineering of this?
I think it's not so much what speed can you operate through unstable track,
but what speed you want to be going when you encounter a big shift or
washout. Cars (and all the folks in them) pile up real quicklike when you hit
something like that at 90, much less so I imagine at lower speeds. Perhaps
the Sunset Limited wouldn't have *launched* off that bridge if it weren't
going 82. Which isn't to say we should slow down all the railroads, but just
to make the point - derailments are nasty at high speeds, and in poor track
locations the risk of derailment is higher and the speed needs to be lower.
At least that's my guess at it...
Paul Didelius
--.-
Joseph Barr
D. Andrew Byler <db...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>This seems like a strange notion. The force on the cliffs is from the
>weight of the train, and speed does not effect train weight. In fact,
>creeping by slower would seem to make it worse, since the weight of the
>train will be on that part of the cliff for a longer period of time.
>Can some one correct me if I am misrepresenting the geotechnical
>engineering of this?
>
>Andy Byler
The force on the cliffs is partially dependent on the weight of the trains, in
that it is dependent on the force exerted by the trains. But the weight is
not the only part of the force. A train simply standing on the cliff will
exert a force of its weight. But a train barelling through at 90mph will
exerrt a lot of other, dynamic forces, both up and down, side to side, and
along the length of the track. These come from boucing, but also from the
forces that the wheels exert on the track to move the train. Theoretically,
if the track were perfectly straight, there might not be any swaying and
bouncing forces, but there would still be the forces due to the grip of the
wheels. In short, the forces on the track increase with the speed, and so a
slow train will exert less force than a fast one. Also, the soil will
probably be more stable if compressed slowly, than if done suddenly. (I
think. If any of the above is wrong, flame me :-))
(Superiority mode on)
I think that this once again proves the superiority of Northwestern over
Carnegie Mellon. :-)
(Superiority mode off)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Ellis Barr (jo...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu)
Student, Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Robert Coe
>> upper part near LA is all yards and switches, and the San Diego section
>> runs through beaches, with people all around. The cliffs at Del Mar will
>> *NOT* support high speed rail traffic, since they are essentially soft
>> sandstone... The current Amtrak trains don't go at max speed, so why
>> get a faster train set?
>
>weight of the train, and speed does not effect train weight. In fact,
>creeping by slower would seem to make it worse, since the weight of the
>train will be on that part of the cliff for a longer period of time.
>Can some one correct me if I am misrepresenting the geotechnical
>engineering of this?
I think you are. While a higher speed doesn't increase the weight on the
track, it may increase the downwards force felt by the roadbed, which is
proportional to acceleration as well as mass. Consider a very short seg-
ment of rail. The higher the speed of the train, the more quickly the
segment feels the full weight borne by any given wheel, which should re-
sult in greater downwards acceleration. I'm too lazy to try to work it
out mathematically, but it seems plausible. :^) It would explain why
railroads often have reduced speed limits on old bridges. And why high-
ways get torn up more quickly by fast trucks than by slow ones.
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe * 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 * 508-443-3265
Andrew Toppan
: AT&SF nearly lost that shelf line in a major multi-day rainstorm in the
: late 1970s. They brought in heavy equipment and built a berm along the
: outer edge, which cut down the cross-track water flow. They also shoved
: the track as far from the edge as they could, quickly. At the start of
: that work, the state told them they couldn't do anything without permits.
: Fortunately, AT&SF's response was to do the work, and tell the state to
: argue with them about it later.
Now this approach I really like!! I've seen this done in coastal
flooding/erosion situations, just tell the state/feds/whatever to
argue about it when the emergency is over. The reason I like is "we
got notification friday afternoon by fax that we had to stop work.
But a fax isn't considered a legally binding document. Let's continue
until we get notification by registered mail on Monday (and the work
will be done by then).
Andrew
******************************************************************************
Andrew Toppan Smile, for tomorrow will be worse!!-
el...@wpi.edu a student at WPI
Railroads, Aircraft, Ships, Boats
Questions and answers are welcome, flames will be ignored.
******************************************************************************
D. Andrew Byler
79mph? by Tony Bur...@nic.cerf.net
> upper part near LA is all yards and switches, and the San Diego section
> runs through beaches, with people all around. The cliffs at Del Mar will
> *NOT* support high speed rail traffic, since they are essentially soft
> sandstone... The current Amtrak trains don't go at max speed, so why
> get a faster train set?
This seems like a strange notion. The force on the cliffs is from the
weight of the train, and speed does not effect train weight. In fact,
creeping by slower would seem to make it worse, since the weight of the
train will be on that part of the cliff for a longer period of time.
Can some one correct me if I am misrepresenting the geotechnical
engineering of this?
Andy Byler
NEAL COTTON
light curves, not tight enough to limit the speed, but the fact that
there are curves on soft sandstone soil requires lower speeds. The
faster the train goes, the more forces are placed on the track outward.
Tony Burzio
>>This seems like a strange notion. The force on the cliffs is from the
>>weight of the train, and speed does not effect train weight. In fact,
>wheels. In short, the forces on the track increase with the speed, and so a
>slow train will exert less force than a fast one. Also, the soil will
It's the vibration. The whole cliff at Del Mar is following a natural
path straight into the Pacific. Speed == vibration. The whole cliff
vibrates like a guitar sounding board when a train goes by...
On a side note, plans are under foot to dredge the San Diego harbor
past the Navy yards and make a serious deep water port. At the
same time, the San Diego Arizona Eastern would be upgraded and reopened
to double stack traffic. Estimated cost for the SDAE upgrade is about
$8 Million, which means $40 Million, but that's still cheap!
Andrew Cary
from Warm Springs (in Fremont, CA) accross the Dumbarton RR bridge to
shorten the route to San Francisco...
The Warm Springs 'yard' is on a different ROW from the Dumbarton wye.
The Dumbarton Brige is on the old SPC ROW (the Mulford line)/ Warm
Springs is where the old WP and SP lines meet. The two ROWs are parallel
and separated by Interstate Highway 880 and about two miles of tract
homes or industrial park.
Traffic from Warm Springs would either have to go south to San Jose and
then back up the Mulford to the Dumbarton wye or north to Niles and then
west on the old Centerville branch (the same way the Amtrak Capitol
Express runs) to the Mulford and then jog north the Dumbarton wye.
There are no other RR crossings over Highway 880.
Either way its probably a lot faster to circle the bay via San Jose and
Santa Clara...
AJL CARY
Jon Roma
> Some of the Illinois Central used to be 90 mph in downstate Illinois,
> but I think the single tracking of this route eliminated this stretch of
> raceway. The only other possibly >80 lines I can think of are the
> Chicago-Milwaukee route, which I had thought was also 90 mph, and the
> RF&P which I think is the same speed. I am not sure if these last two
> are actually that fast though.
The Illinois Central for many years had speed limits of 100 mph on the
122 miles of track between Champaign, and Branch Jct. (Centralia), Illinois
that was equipped with automatic train stop (ATS).
Speed limits were dropped to 90 mph in 1974, following release of new FRA
regulations that define track quality standards and specified maximum
permissible speeds for each class of track.
When IC embarked on its single-tracking program in late 1989, it initially
converted a couple segments of the former double-track ATS to single-track
CTC with ATS. But at the same time, IC petitioned the FRA to allow dropping
the automatic train stop. IC's ATS -- which was a two-indication system
fundamentally unchanged from the time of its implementation in the 1920's --
was technologically inferior to today's ATS/ATC systems. The ATS required
that only ATS-equipped locomotives could lead trains, which led to poor
locomotive utilization -- and operational problems if the ATS died on the
a train's only ATS locomotive en route.
The system became less valuable as IC dropped its passenger service and
handed over the remains to Amtrak. The only reason the ATS survived so
long was that the territory had NO wayside block signals, except for the
absolute signals at interlockings and the retiring of the ATS would have
required the expensive proposition of erecting wayside signals on 122 miles
of line. And although the ATS could and did function on a single-track line,
the complete replacement of the signal system from the ground up that came
as part of the single-tracking/CTC project made it cost-effective to finally
retire the ATS. The last 90 mph operation on the Illinois Central took
place during the summer of 1991.
I can't provide as many details, but the ATS operation on the Milwaukee Road
was retired in the late 1960's.
--
Jon Roma <ro...@uiuc.edu> Computing and Communications Services Office
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Find me <a href=http://ux1.cso.uiuc.edu/~roma>here</a> on the Web!
Ronald Lehmer
After riding the San Diegan yesterday, I'm convinced that Amtrak does
indeed go 90MPH on the old Surf Line. What is required, though, are 2
F40PH's on a six car train. The usual consist is 1 F40 with 6 cars (1
Custom Class Coach, 1 Cafe, and 3 80 seat coaches, and 1 Metroliner cab
car). One the way down to San Diego with a single F40, the train was
just inching out ahead of the traffic. On the way back with 2 F40's
(one on each end - must have had a b/o cab car) with 6 cars, we were blowing traffic off the freeway. Of course, my car seemed to have square wheels, which
didn't make the high speed all that enjoyable.
As for construction, most of the major bridge work seems to done on the
line. A second main track is now being laid between Fullerton and
Anaheim. The train even had to back out of LAUPT onto the old Pasadena
Sub at Mission Tower because they are modifying the connection of the
San Diego Line there.
Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start getting
pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new timetable warns
that Amtrak will begin stopping at the new Solana Beach station this
Spring instead of Del Mar. Too bad, I love that little station.
Colin R. Leech
In a previous article, db...@andrew.cmu.edu ("D. Andrew Byler") says:
>This seems like a strange notion. The force on the cliffs is from the
>weight of the train, and speed does not effect train weight.
Weight is a static force. Moving objects also exert dynamic forces. Very
heavy moving objects travelling at high speeds exert very large dynamic
forces.
--
Colin R. Leech |-> Civil Engineer by training,
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca |-> Transportation Planner by choice,
h:613-224-2301 w:613-741-6440 |-> Trombonist by hobby.
My opinions are my own, not my employer's. You may consider them shareware.
Jeffrey M. Williams
late in coming into this conversation?
M. Murray
: Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start getting
: pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new timetable warns
: that Amtrak will begin stopping at the new Solana Beach station this
: Spring instead of Del Mar. Too bad, I love that little station.
Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably. In England a
depot is where locos are serviced, a station is where passengers get on
and off; two different words for two different things.
Who doesn't agree that the above clip would be improved if "Del Mar
depot" were changed to "Del Mar station"?
--
Martin Murray :: School of Chemistry, Bristol University, BS8 1TS, England
ps...@po.cwru.edu
M. Murray <co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
> Ronald Lehmer (r...@kaveri.ucla.edu) wrote:
>
>
> : Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start getting
> : pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new timetable warns
> : that Amtrak will begin stopping at the new Solana Beach station this
> : Spring instead of Del Mar. Too bad, I love that little station.
>
> Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
> station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably. In England a
> depot is where locos are serviced, a station is where passengers get on
> and off; two different words for two different things.
I don't know if it is proper (considering the origins of the words), but yes,
they are used interchangably.
Paul Didelius
--.-
Evan Werkema
>Ronald Lehmer (r...@kaveri.ucla.edu) wrote:
>
>: Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start getting
>: pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new timetable warns
>: that Amtrak will begin stopping at the new Solana Beach station this
>: Spring instead of Del Mar. Too bad, I love that little station.
>
>Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
>station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably.
In the USA, "depot" and "station" can both refer to the building whereat
passengers or LCL freight wait for trains. However, "station" also has a
somewhat broader definition as a place on the railroad that has something
more than just the main track (e.g. sidings, crossovers, junction,
stockpens). A location doesn't have to have a "depot" (building) to be
called a "station." In fact, when they tear down the depot at a location,
they often erect a "station sign" with the town name on it.
>In England a depot is where locos are serviced,
Depot is almost never used in this connotation in the US. Locomotives
are serviced at the enginehouse or roundhouse or (in the diesel era) the
shops, but never the "depot."
Talk about separated by a common language...for a long time I had been
wondering, when the train in SIMUdrive passes the "Old Oak Commons Depot,"
why they would have another passenger loading point so close to a major
terminal! Guess it wasn't a "depot" (US definition) after all!
--
_###----_____-_____-_____-_____-___ _____________________ /===============
Ioo|| |~~| santa fe |~~| I I @ I I I I I~~~I
_I__||___|__|__________|__|_________I I ATSF I I I I I___I
/~O===O~=====~~==~--~-----~ O==O `-'~~o==o~~~~~~~~~~~o==o~~~~O==O==O~~~~~~~
-Evan Werkem...@po.cwru.edu---"Ship and Travel Santa Fe...All the Way!"-
mcdowell charles w
>In article <Cz2D1...@info.bris.ac.uk> co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray) writes:
>>Ronald Lehmer (r...@kaveri.ucla.edu) wrote:
>>
>>: Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start getting
>>: pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new timetable warns
>>: that Amtrak will begin stopping at the new Solana Beach station this
>>: Spring instead of Del Mar. Too bad, I love that little station.
>>
>>Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
>>station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably.
> In the USA, "depot" and "station" can both refer to the building whereat
>passengers or LCL freight wait for trains. However, "station" also has a
>somewhat broader definition as a place on the railroad that has something
>more than just the main track (e.g. sidings, crossovers, junction,
>stockpens). A location doesn't have to have a "depot" (building) to be
>called a "station." In fact, when they tear down the depot at a location,
>they often erect a "station sign" with the town name on it.
To some extent the use of "depot" or "station" can also depend on the
population of the community that the building is located in. "Depot"
seems to be used for smaller towns and more rural areas while you might
refer to this building in a larger town or city as a "station." Note
that there are always exceptions (like St. Paul Union Depot in St. Paul,
Minnesota, with a population that has been above 100,000 for many years).
Trey McDowell
mcdo...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879
> station?
Union Station, in Chicago, or Grand Central Station, in New York, would
never, repeat, never be called a depot.
The two terms are interchangable only for stations in smaller towns,
intermediate stops along the line. Thus, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, the
old Michigan Central station was built on Depot Street (the building
still stands, but it's a restaurant next to the modern Amtrak station).
Doug Jones
jo...@cs.uiowa.edu
Robert Heller
In a message on 10 November, wrote :
p > In article <Cz2D1...@info.bris.ac.uk>,
p > M. Murray <co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
p > > Ronald Lehmer (r...@kaveri.ucla.edu) wrote:
p > >
p > >
p > > : Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start gettin
p > > : pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new timetable warns
p > > : that Amtrak will begin stopping at the new Solana Beach station this
p > > : Spring instead of Del Mar. Too bad, I love that little station.
p > >
p > > Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
p > > station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably. In England a
p > > depot is where locos are serviced, a station is where passengers get on
p > > and off; two different words for two different things.
p >
p > I don't know if it is proper (considering the origins of the words), but
p > they are used interchangably.
In alot of rural America (mostly last century), the trains were mixed
freight and passenger and the train "station" was also the "freight
depot". So, in a certain sense, the the interchangablity reflected an
interchangablity of function.
Robert
---
ş ATP/OSK 1.40 ş OS-9/68000 -- The only *real* operating system.
--
\/InterNet: Hel...@CS.UMass.EDU
Robert Heller ||BIX: locks.hill.bbs
http://vis-www.cs.umass.edu/~heller/home.html||FidoNet: 1:321/153
/\CompuServe: 71450,3432
John W. Baxter
> Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
> station?
A "station" in US usage is a named place along the rail line. A "depot"
is a building, at a station.
[Can a "depot" be located not at a station? Not sure...the building can
certainly be moved away, or the rails can be pulled out leaving the
building behind, but is it still a "depot" in either case? OR has it
become a "former depot"?
--John (who believes he is correct here, but...)
Hudson Leighton
MM> From: co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray)
MM> Ronald Lehmer (r...@kaveri.ucla.edu) wrote:
MM> : Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start
MM> getting : pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new
MM> timetable warns : that Amtrak will begin stopping at the new Solana
MM> Beach station this : Spring instead of Del Mar. Too bad, I love that
MM> little station.
MM> Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
MM> station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably. In England
MM> a depot is where locos are serviced, a station is where passengers get
MM> on and off; two different words for two different things.
MM> Who doesn't agree that the above clip would be improved if "Del Mar
MM> depot" were changed to "Del Mar station"?
MM> --
My defination of depot & station (your mileage may vary)
A STATION is a point defined by timetable, sign, rule, special instruction or
common usage.
ie: Chicago Union Station, Burke Siding, East Wye Switch, Double Crossover MP
66, etc.
A DEPOT is a structure that may be at a station.
You can have a station without a depot, but you can't have a depot without a
station.
... WARNING: The Conductor aboard this train is a MEAN OL' BASTARD!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Colin R. Leech
>John W. Baxter (jwba...@olympus.net) wrote:
>
>: AT&SF nearly lost that shelf line in a major multi-day rainstorm in the
>: Fortunately, AT&SF's response was to do the work, and tell the state to
>: argue with them about it later.
Did they suffer any (legal) consequences by doing this?
John W. Baxter
> > Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
> > station?
>
> Union Station, in Chicago, or Grand Central Station, in New York, would
> never, repeat, never be called a depot.
>
And the formal name for LA Union Station is (or was) Los Angeles Union
Passenger Terminal, hence all the stencils which read (or read...isn't
English fun?) "LAUPT"
--John
Robert Coe
>: Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start getting
>: pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new timetable warns
>: that Amtrak will begin stopping at the new Solana Beach station this
>: Spring instead of Del Mar. Too bad, I love that little station.
>
>Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
>station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably. In England a
>depot is where locos are serviced, a station is where passengers get on
>and off; two different words for two different things.
Historically, "depot" (pronounced "deepo") was/is used more in small-town
or rural areas; hence it more often refers to a station in such a location.
I think it's a word you would have heard much more often in the early part
of this century.
The U.S. military also uses the word "depot" (but usually pronounces it
"deppo") for a building or group of buildings used for storage of parts,
equipment, or ordnance.
I never heard the word (pronounced either way) used for a place where
locos are serviced.
>Who doesn't agree that the above clip would be improved if "Del Mar
>depot" were changed to "Del Mar station"?
Well..... I guess I don't. :^)
Richard Miller
> Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
> station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably. In England a
> depot is where locos are serviced, a station is where passengers get on
> and off; two different words for two different things.
They're used pretty much interchangeably here, Martin, both
refer to a building where passengers board trains. There used
to be freight depots, too, but with the demise of less than
carload service, most have been torn down or put to other uses.
Locos can be fueled or other minor service activities at depots,
but normally, they're serviced at roundhouses (old useage),
diesel shops or maintenance facilities.
> Who doesn't agree that the above clip would be improved if "Del Mar
> depot" were changed to "Del Mar station"?
"depot" has kind of a small town ring to it, appropriate for Del Mar,
but not so appropriate for Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal. :)
____ Rick Miller rmi...@execpc.com
\ / Milwaukee, Wisconsin
\/ Amiga 2500 Fidonet: Richard Miller 1:154/280
Andrew Waugh
>In article <Cz2D1...@info.bris.ac.uk>, co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray) wrote:
>
>> Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
>> station?
>
>A "station" in US usage is a named place along the rail line. A "depot"
>is a building, at a station.
Exactly, but to be even more precise, 'station' is formal word whose
meaning is defined in a Rulebook:
Station: A place designated on the timetable by name.
The timetable is, of course, the Employee Timetable, not the public
timetable.
US safeworking is based on the notion of 'rights'. A train was
traditionally granted a right to occupy a piece of track by direction,
train order, or timetable. In the last two mechanisms, the 'right' is
granted by means of station names. Consequently the exact definition of
what constitutes a 'station' was very important.
Stations may be CTC crossing loops, the ends of double track, isolated
crossovers between double main lines. No building is necessary, though
I suspect a nameboard would always be provided.
>[Can a "depot" be located not at a station? Not sure...the building can
>certainly be moved away, or the rails can be pulled out leaving the
>building behind, but is it still a "depot" in either case? OR has it
>become a "former depot"?
Yes. All it would need is to be not mentioned in the ETT. It would have
to be located on plain track, though...
andrew waugh
Warren Brill
: In article <jwbaxter-101...@ptpm001.olympus.net> jwba...@olympus.net (John W. Baxter) writes:
: >In article <Cz2D1...@info.bris.ac.uk>, co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray) wrote:
: Station: A place designated on the timetable by name.
(snip)
: Stations may be CTC crossing loops, the ends of double track, isolated
: crossovers between double main lines. No building is necessary, though
: I suspect a nameboard would always be provided.
******** AHA!! I've always wondered what was signified by a "station" type
sign on the BN (nee C&S) about twenty miles north of Fort Collins which is
lettered "Bulger". It is right next to a passing siding which is in turn
almost straight east of the Gliderport at Waverly (CO), a place where if
there _had been_ a _depot_, one would certainly have to be _paid_ to get
out of a train. There isn't a dwelling in many miles every direction, but
there _is_ a passing siding; that must be what "Bulger" refers to. *********
(snip)
: andrew waugh
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
o *i---i-----v+++v--==-==-==x o
o Warren T. Brill, a.k.a. =----|[I]| _RIO GRANDE__ | o
o war...@zeus.fc.hp.com i_|___/|___|\____________#######|_i o
o =++=()^()^()= ******** =()^()^()=++= o
o ======================================================================= o
o Don't try to beat the train to the crossing...if you win, you lose! o
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879
co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray) wrote:
> Station: A place designated on the timetable by name.
Yes, a station on a railroad is, at least in the United States, a named
place. Vernon Iowa, for example, is a named passing siding on the
Iowa Interstate Railroad (what used to be the Rock Island mainline from
Chicago to Omaha). Vernon is within the corporate limits of the town
of Coralville, and it serves as a team track for a lumber yard and a
small intermodal operation.
Dean's Spur was a livestock loading siding on the Burlington Cedar
Rapids and Northern Railroad (it later became the Rock Island). It had
a siding, at one time, but no evidence remains. Delvida was another
station on that line, a named passing siding that never saw any
development.
Many stations can be found in the Interstate Commerce Commission rate
tables. That is, they had regulated freight rates for material shipped
to or from those locations. The only thing that defined it as a station
was the fact that trains sometimes stopped there to load or unload.
Other stations were merely places that needed to be named in order to
refer to them in order to manage the railroad. Typical of these are the
places named in timetables.
This usage of the word station may derive from civil engineering usage,
where a station is a point with a measured location.
Doug Jones
jo...@cs.uiowa.edu
Michael Stimac
>: Finally, those of you who photograph the line had better start getting
>: pictures of the Del Mar depot in operation. The new timetable warns
In article <Cz2D1...@info.bris.ac.uk> co...@zeus.bris.ac.uk (M. Murray) writes:
>Can some American railfan tell me when they use the word depot, when
>station? The above clip seems to use them interchangeably. In England a
>depot is where locos are serviced, a station is where passengers get on
>and off; two different words for two different things.
>Who doesn't agree that the above clip would be improved if "Del Mar
>depot" were changed to "Del Mar station"?
Good luck getting consistent replies!
In the US the word "depot" is used somewhat loosely. Cognate with
the French, the word basically means a "place where things are
deposited". This would suggest it is also a place where you would
get something. For example, there used to be "ice depots" where
ice was kept cold year-round and you would go to get a block of ice
for a party. From this is it a short stretch to meaning a place
where you could get services, such as railway passage.
My dictionary (Webster Thrid International) first gives the depository
definition, and then gives "railway station" as a synonym. Thus
the usage you see in the original poster's message.
I've noticed that many people seem to refer to the actual building
structure as the "depot", while station simply means the place a
train stops, whether or not there is a structure. The poster used
the word "depot" because he is specifically suggesting photographing
the station *building* not the general area.
The word "depot" is not in widespread use in the US, although nearly
everyone will understand it.
Michael "Ferroetymologist" Stimac
--
Michael Stimac
(415) 355-8889
ro...@tymnet.com
These opinions are not necessarily anyone's but my own.
Colin R. Leech
In a previous article, el...@po.CWRU.edu (Evan Werkema) says:
>>In England a depot is where locos are serviced,
>
> Depot is almost never used in this connotation in the US. Locomotives
>are serviced at the enginehouse or roundhouse or (in the diesel era) the
>shops, but never the "depot."
In the bus business, some oldtimers still refer to certain garages as
depots (eg. "I'm working out of Merivale Depot for this booking"). Some
still call them barns, after the old streetcar barn name (notably the
schedulers, who refer to "barning the buses" as the process of allocating
different buses and runs to different garages). These are not common
terms, but still used in Canada.
John Wilson
: In a previous article, el...@po.CWRU.edu (Evan Werkema) says:
: >>In England a depot is where locos are serviced,
: >
: > Depot is almost never used in this connotation in the US. Locomotives
: >are serviced at the enginehouse or roundhouse or (in the diesel era) the
: >shops, but never the "depot."
To muddy the waters a little further, I have the impression that "depot"
is mostly a Midwestern and Western usage. Living the first half of my
life in and around Philadelphia and Boston, I never heard the word "depot"
used for anything on a railroad except in written material by somebody
from west of about Indiana. The smallest commuter stops in the Philadelphia
suburbs are "stations".
Betcha this never gets sorted out ...
David Ryujiro Olsen
concrete ones. Is this something they are doing on the mainline, in a
certain region of the country, or are they trying to do it everywhere
along their routes? Thanks for all the answers you've given me already,
and I hope someone can tell me a little about this. Thanks!
David
Damon Hill
Pandol (sp?) clips on the old Western & Atlantic line (leased from the
State of Georgia) going north out of Atlanta to Chattanooga. I gather the
line is also to be double-tracked to Cartersville in anticipation of
commuter train service; four new bridges in Cobb County were built to
double track width (they'll have a couple of high trestles across Lake
Alatoona and the Etowah River to widen, too).
BN seems to be generally installing concrete on it's heavily used
mainlines in Washington State, but not consistently. Expensive to
install, but lowered maintenence and better alignment for heavy freight
and fast passenger service is usually a plus.
I've seen a variety of fasteners used; wedge clips, Pandol (think steel
pretzel), bolts and washers on the FEC, to attach the rails and ties.
Does anyone have any information/comments on the various practices of
attachment and rail alignment/maintenence with non-wood sleepers?
--Damon
Robert Heller
In a message on 19 November, wrote :
w > Colin R. Leech (ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
w >
w > : In a previous article, el...@po.CWRU.edu (Evan Werkema) says:
w >
w > : >>In England a depot is where locos are serviced,
w > : >
w > : > Depot is almost never used in this connotation in the US. Locomotiv
w > : >are serviced at the enginehouse or roundhouse or (in the diesel era) t
w > : >shops, but never the "depot."
w >
w > To muddy the waters a little further, I have the impression that "depot"
w > is mostly a Midwestern and Western usage. Living the first half of my
More accuratly, rural usage. Wendell Depot, MA, is hardly Midwestern
or Western (although many people in Boston seem to think the anything
west of I495 might as well be west of the Rockies...).
w > life in and around Philadelphia and Boston, I never heard the word "depot
w > used for anything on a railroad except in written material by somebody
w > from west of about Indiana. The smallest commuter stops in the Philadelph
w > suburbs are "stations".
w >
w > Betcha this never gets sorted out ...
w >
William Cordes
.
. WmC
.
Ron Newman
Robert Heller <hel...@cs.umass.edu> wrote:
>w > To muddy the waters a little further, I have the impression that "depot"
>w > is mostly a Midwestern and Western usage.
>
>or Western (although many people in Boston seem to think the anything
>west of I495 might as well be west of the Rockies...).
You don't even have to go that far west. "Beverly Depot" and "Norwood Depot"
are active stops on the MBTA's commuter rail system. They're not
especially "rural", either.
--
Ron Newman MIT Media Laboratory
rne...@media.mit.edu
Barry L. Lankford
>From: dr...@acpub.duke.edu (David Ryujiro Olsen)
>Subject: CSX concrete ties
>Date: 19 Nov 1994 00:19:15 -0500
> David
I was curious about that myself since I first saw them where the CSX tracks
pass through my uncle's farm in Virginia. His farm is along the north bank of
the James River east of Lynchburg and the track is single mainline. Long coal
trains go through there, probably to Newport News to be loaded onto ships (I
used to live there). It seemed like the Sunday afternoon that I was there for
about 4 to 5 hours that a train would go through every 45 minutes or so.
I noticed that the rail sat on a steel plate which appeared to be attached to
the concrete ties with devices that looked like huge cotter pins, and the rail
was held down on the steel plate by a spring-like device bent up out of round
steel wire. I wasn't able to determine exactly how it all works. Oddly
enough, the next day I was at a spot on the same mainline but a couple of
dozen miles west where the track was on wood ties, but it was fastened down
the same way as they were on the concrete ties, cotter pins, steel spring
clips and all. Incidentally, while there I found a large pry bar in the weeds
which was obviously made to pull standard RR spikes out of ties. Since there
were no standard spikes anywhere around there, I assumed it had been discarded
so I kept it as a souvenir. It was tricky to shoehorn into the car trunk.
If anyone has information on how this rail attachment system works, I'll like
to hear it, so be sure to post it here.
Barry L. Lankford email: bar...@nuance.com Amateur Radio: N4MSJ
Madison, Alabama, USA ICBM: 34deg 41min 52.2sec N, 86deg 45min 34.2sec W
Adrian Brandt
> the rail was held down on the steel plate by a spring-like device bent up
> out of round steel wire.
[...and...]
> If anyone has information on how this rail attachment system works, I'll
> like to hear it, so be sure to post it here.
It sounds like you saw Panderol rail clips. They're used extensively in
Europe--especially on high speed lines. I see them advertised in Railway
Gazette International all the time. RGI, by the way, is the best rail
magazine I know of. It's published in England.
--
Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
adr...@ntmtv.com
Mark Bej
> In article <3aq27o$6...@kernighan.cs.umass.edu>,
> Robert Heller <hel...@cs.umass.edu> wrote:
> >w > To muddy the waters a little further, I have the impression that "depot"
> >w > is mostly a Midwestern and Western usage.
To muddy things up even more, I just saw a reproduction of part of an old
map (by the looks of it, fonts used, etc., looks to be 1850-1900) which
clearly said of two buildings on opposite sides of the track going down
the middle of the street, "Freight House" and "Passenger Depot".
But my experience has been similar: that in _general_, in the US,
passengers alight and disembark (or in modern AmtrEnglish, entrain
and detrain, the latter not to be confused with a pre-aeroplane
version of Fantasy Island) at a psgr. _station_, whereas freight
goes to a _depot_, and that the latter implies a property of
smallness.
--
Mark
--
Mark D. Bej, M.D.
Sections of Epilepsy and Sleep Disorders
and Neurological Computing Phone (216) 444-0119
Department of Neurology Operator (216) 444-2200 beeper 24095
Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Voice mail (216) 444-0950 or via opr.
9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617
Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Internet be...@ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org
Clemens Emanuel Tillier
>It sounds like you saw Panderol rail clips. They're used extensively in
>Europe--especially on high speed lines.
AFAIK, they're *not* used on any of the French TGV lines. If I recall
correctly, the fasteners there are called Nabla clips-- they look like a
trapezoidal plate bolted to the tie such that the long base of the
trapezoid rests against the base of the rail. (What's the techno-whiz
term for "base of the rail"? I can't remember at the moment...)
Poor ASCII art, viewed from above:
--------------------------
Railhead
--------------------------
\--------------/
-------\Clip __ /-----
| | \ / \ / | |
| | \ \__/ / | |
| | \______/ | |
| | Cushion | |
| --------------- |
| |
| Concrete Tie |
| |
Regards,
Clem Tillier
Stanford, California, USA
ctil...@leland.stanford.edu
R C Lodge
They are called PANDROL clips, made by a firm called PANDROL. The clips pass through holes in the baseplate, under the rail, and holds the rail down. They are used on concrete and timber ties.
Regards
Rupert Lodge-Custodian of the 1758 Middleton Railway
PhilipMcD
C Lodge) writes:
<They are called PANDROL clips, made by a firm called PANDROL. The clips
pass through holes in the baseplate, under the rail, and holds the rail
down. They are used on concrete and timber ties.>
Pandrol is correct. The company is now Pandrol-Jackson and Us HG is in NJ.
The plates are fastened to the tie, on timber usually by screw spikes, and
the
Famous "E" clip is driven so as to rest on the top of the base of the
rail, while the other end is inserted into a integral shoulder on the tie
plate. I imaginge the best comparison may be some type of cam-action.
They really are a great fastening system for both concrete and timber
ties. This type of fastener is commonly referred to as an "elastic
fastener" as it lets the rail move somewhat yet is capable of great gage
retention. There are many different systems of elastic fastener on the
market these days, but Pandrol still seems to be the strong favorite here
in the states.
Phil McDonald
Phil...@aol.com
"Four generations later and those McDonald boys are still foolin' around
with trains".
William Cordes
. ("Nabla" as the name for the fastener is interesting--means harp,
just like the famous upside-down capital Greek delta mathematical operator.)
.
. WmC
.
DAVID KORKHOUSE
division (Chicago) in and north of Evansville, Indiana. Also around
Lakeland Fl. I also understand some heavy traffic areas in VA are
getting ties, such as the RF&P.
dave pierson
writes...
>bar...@nuance.com (Barry L. Lankford) writes:
>> the rail was held down on the steel plate by a spring-like device bent up
>> out of round steel wire.
>> If anyone has information on how this rail attachment system works, I'll
>> like to hear it, so be sure to post it here.
It works well. AMTRAK has it in use on much of the NEC and it has been
extensively used in the rest of the world.
>It sounds like you saw Panderol rail clips. They're used extensively in
>Europe--especially on high speed lines. I see them advertised in Railway
>Gazette International all the time. RGI, by the way, is the best rail
>magazine I know of. It's published in England.
Pandrol (apologies for picking on a probable type...). From the
name of the inventor of the clip:
Per PANDe-ROLfson
Some where in there there is an insulating pad and the "cotter pins"
are in sulating epoxy, to keep the conductivity thru the concrete tie
(yes...) from affecting the track circuits.
Since the clips are springs, the hold DOWN on the rail and function
as rail anchors, prevetning rail creep. They are more suited to
automatic insertion than spikes. They can also be inserted and removed
"manually".
(There is a RISK here. pandrol clips are most widely used and best
known. There are other spring fashioning systems. The topology of
a pandrol clip is that of a paper clip, tho the function is different.)
thanks
dave pierson |the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation |the opinions, my own.
200 Forest St |I am the NRA.
Marlboro, Mass 01751 |pie...@msd26.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing." A J Raffles
Depot Man
earlier that St. Paul Union Depot is not called "Union Station." Compared
to other cities' passenger buildings known as "Stations", it could have
been described as one. The place, not the building, was a station listed
on timetables as St. Paul Union Depot or the acronym, SPUD.
In Duluth, Minnesota, "The Depot" is still used to describe the former
Union Depot there, although its current formal name is much more
descriptive (St. Louis County Heritage & Arts Center). It could have been
described as "Union Station" but wasn't.
In my town, Stillwater, Minnesota, an excellent passenger facility was
built in 1887 and lasted until 1960. On the two surviving Chicago
architect's sketches, the building is labeled "Union Station." But the
sign over the door was built to read "Union Depot" and everyone called it
that, everyone except those from out-of-town.
Perhaps the management of the area railroads was strict in the usage:
station being a point listed in a timetable; freight house and passenger
depot, or depot for short, to describe buildings at stations.
Dean R. Thilgen (Depot Man)