Railroad Sued by Trespasser's Family
Bruce B. Harper
grade crossing accidents that it was a wonder that one of the victims
didn't sue the railroad. Well, something like that is happening here in
Virginia. A suit has been filed against Norfolk Southern Corporation in
Henry County Circuit Court.
The $10 million lawsuit was filed on September 25, 1992, in Henry
County on behalf of the mother of one of two teenagers killed while
crossing a railroad trestle. The boys, Charles Barker, 13, and Earl
Adams, Jr., 14, were killed on August 16, 1992, while crossing a 431-foot
trestle over the Smith River near Martinsville, Va. The trestle is on
the Norfolk & Western Railway Winston-Salem line that runs south out of
Roanoke. While crossing the trestle (a popular local shortcut), the boys
were overtaken by a 101-car train. Because of a curve in the tracks just
before the trestle, the crew could not see the boys in time to blow a
warning whistle. The engineer did blow the horn and put the train into
emergency, but could not stop in time to prevent hitting the boys.
At issue in the case right now is a memo that was filed as part of the
suit. The memo was written on September 8, 1989 by the railroad's chief
attorney Wiley F. Mitchell, Jr. to T. E. Gurley, a Norfolk Southern
manager, following an incident in which a child was struck on the High
Bridge trestle on the Norfolk & Western near Farmville, Va. According to
the _Roanoke Times and World News_ (RT&WN) Nov. 21, 1992, Norfolk
Southern contends that the letter is a private communication between
attorney and client and should be kept secret, that it was stolen from
its files and copied, and that is has nothing to do with the case in
question. According to the RT&WN, "The copy filed in court appears to
have been hastily made. The photocopy is crooked on the page and the top
of the memo's second page is partially obscured.
"Covington lawyer Bill Wilson, who is representing the mother of one of
the dead teens, said the memo was sent to a woman whose child was struck
three years ago by a train on a Norfolk Southern trestle near Farmville.
He said the memo was mailed anonymously by a railroad employee who was
upset with the company's response to the accident."
The memo was about the possible installation of additional warning and
protective devices at High Bridge. Part of the memo states (according to
the RT&WN) "Although the sounding of warnings on the engine horn and the
installation of the signs and other protective devices should reduce the
risk of accidents, the failure to maintain the signs and protective
devices, or the failure to sound a warning on the engine horn, will, in
the event of an accident, give a prospective plantiff a very sound legal
theory on which to assert liability against us." The memo also warns
that if the railroad puts warning devices at one trestle that it might
have to put them at all trestles.
The plaintiffs contend that this memo shows that Norfolk Southern put
money ahead of life by not installing warning devices. The railroad
contends that the boys were negligent and that they were trespassing.
In a follow-up article in the RT&WN on Nov. 24, a Norfolk Southern
spokesman defended the railroad's position. "Why should we pay any money
to warn people not to trespass on our property?" said Bob Auman, NS
spokesman. "We never invite these people to walk on our tracks," he said.
"How could we justify that expenditure [for elaborate warning devices] to
our stockholders or anyone else?"
Wiley Mitchell, the chief railroad attorney who wrote the memo, said in
the article that the position stated in the memo was one the railroad
could defend, but refused further comment because the railroad will take
the position in Henry County Circuit Court that the memo was copied
illegally and should not be admissible in court.
Patrica Collins, Barker's mother, stated in the article that "she knows
her only son should not have been on the trestle. But, she said, he was
just a child playing with a friend. And, she said, even if the boys saw
the railway's no trespassing sign, 'They're not thinking, 'You'll get run
over by a train.' They paid their price," she said, "but the railroad
also has been negligent.' If the train had blown a whistle before the
bridge or if there had been a warning horn the boys would be alive today,
she said. 'I don't think that sign is sufficient.'"
The article also states that Collins has helped organize a petition
drive to push the state (Virginia) to enact laws requiring some sort of
warning bell, horn, or whistle that would warn anyone on the trestle well
before the train arrives. Wilson, the plaintiff's attorney, said he
hopes the deaths and the lawsuit force the company to change its policy
and save lives at virtually no added cost. "If they had simply blown the
whistle, would this have happened?" he said.
According to the article, Norfolk Southern has 7,750 bridges in its
system, which averages more than one bridge every two miles. Auman said
that "if NS's trains started blowing their whistles at every road
crossing and bridge on its 15,000-mile system, 'there would be a hue and
cry across the South and Midwest' from people telling the railroad to
stop waking them up. 'What someone seems to be advocating is that we blow
our whistles continuously,' he said." Auman said that whistles and
elaborate warning devices are not the solution, but that education is the
key.
The hearing on the railroad's motion to seal the memo is scheduled for
December 10.
As an aside, the Code of Virginia states that any person who is on
railroad property at other than a public grade crossing is guilty of
trespassing, which is a misdemeanor.
Bruce
Administrative Display System Bruce B. Harper, Manager
Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0433
==In the heart of Norfolk and Western territory.==
BHARPER@VTVM1 (BITNET) or BHA...@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU (Internet)
x92o...@gw.wmich.edu
I hope the family doesn't win this case. Obviously, these kids should
have known how unsafe a railroad bridge is. They should have known that
a train could cross at any time. I am sure that they have seen trains use
that line many times and were aware of the risks involved in crossing a
railroad trestle.
This is like sueing a railroad because someone in your family got killed
at a grade crossing because they ran around the gate or through the flashing
signals and tried to beat the train. It is sueing the railroad because of
your own ignorance, or the ignorance of someone else and blaming the railroad
for their stupidity.
This is just my opinion.
Jeff
Jermaster
> I hope the family doesn't win this case. Obviously, these kids should
>have known how unsafe a railroad bridge is. They should have known that
>a train could cross at any time. I am sure that they have seen trains use
>that line many times and were aware of the risks involved in crossing a
>railroad trestle.
>
> This is like sueing a railroad because someone in your family got killed
>at a grade crossing because they ran around the gate or through the flashing
>signals and tried to beat the train. It is sueing the railroad because of
>your own ignorance, or the ignorance of someone else and blaming the railroad
>for their stupidity.
I heard about a case that was even more stupid. A Conrail employee told me
that the reason that CR Police patrol so much around BE Tower in Berea, OH,
is because of a lawsuit where a boy was riding his dirtbike near the tracks
and tried to jump a ballast pile. He wrecked his bike and his parents sued
Conrail, on what grounds I don't remember.
Later,
-Jer
--
Jerry W. Jordak Well they say your folks are telling you
a.k.a. Jermaster To be a super star
(jw...@po.cwru.edu) But I tell you just be satisfied
To stay right where you are -- Queen
Jim Haynes
There was a case here some years back where a man got on a railroad
trestle and dived into water below and broke his neck and was paralyzed
from the neck down. He sued the railroad and won in a jury trial; but
I believe the verdict was reversed on appeal by the railroad, on the
grounds that the jury ignored the law.
--
hay...@cats.ucsc.edu
hay...@cats.bitnet
"Ya can argue all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!"
"No it aint! But ya gotta know the territory!"
Meredith Willson: "The Music Man"
Eddie Van Huffel
THERE WAS A SUFFICIENT WARNING DEVICE THERE. HOWEVER IT, LIKE ALL OTHER
WARNING DEVICES, WAS TAKEN FOR GRANTED.
IT WAS A SIGN THAT SAID
NO TRESPASSING!!
they didn't heed that one either.
I was taught in schools about the dangers, and I am certain that the boys
were. The real victim was the engineer, who must have felt helpless as
he snuffed out the lives of 2 boys, who took life for granted.
--
ed...@railnet.nshore.ORG (Eddie Van Huffel)
Railnet BBS +1 216 786 0476
Garth G. Groff
who were killed in the N&W accident, I hope that they
lose their suit. If the property is posted, they
really have no case. I wonder if they weren't conned
into this lawsuit by some greedy lawyer hoping to get
his 2/3 of that $10 million. The family has suffered
a lot, but they are going to go on suffering for years
as this trial drags on through the courts.
An aside: several years ago in one of the New England
states, New Hampshire I think, a candidate ran for
President under the "Down With Lawyers Party" banner.
Apparently a few voters thought it was a good idea:
they polled about 500 votes.
~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
gg...@poe.acc.virginia.EDU Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
Mike Walsh
and would rather that the engine did not continuously sound
warning horns to keep stupid people off tracks!
---
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(_) (_) ani...@rtp-nc.mentorg.com
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Kershner Wyatt
In my more stupid days in college in Shepherdstown, WV, a couple of us would
walk across the N&W Potomac River trestle to Maryland on occasion. It said
"No trespassing" as well. We were fortunate that on the half dozen times
we did it that we had a straight view down the track to either side, that
there were fire-barrel platforms every so often, that we didn't get trapped
between the ties and that we didn't plunge to our death. It's hard to say
what the greatest fear was, but we knew if we fell, that 15 ft of Potomac
wasn't going to be enough. That is, if we were in the half mile breadth of
the river. Otherwise, rocks.
I think the closest times were when we saw a shining headlight starting across
the opposite side as we were getting off on this side. This happened twice.
We would try to start across as the last train got past, figuring this gave
us plenty of time.
The worst part? None of us drank or were under any kind of influence other
than a challenge. I don't think that you would get me on more than 3 ties
onto the trestle now. Guess there is some advantage to growing up... But no
sign, blowing whistles or anything else would of kept us off. Just part of
"growing up" I suppose. BTW, I would be the first one to discipline my
children for doing something that stupid. ;)
--
Kershner Wyatt
kwy...@ccscola.ColumbiaSC.ncr.com
My opinions are my own and aren't necessarily my employer's.
Robert Coe
> I don't know about other people, but I live near a railroad and would
> rather that the engine did not continuously sound warning horns to keep
> stupid people off tracks!
The lawyers in the NS case will contend that the trestle is an "attractive
nuisance" and therefore requires more protection than just a warning sign.
And they will win.
The underlying problem, of course, is that since most legislators are law-
yers, laws are written primarily to benefit lawyers - an obvious conflict of
interest. "Term limitations" are a side issue. What we *really* need are
laws (or a constitutional amendment) requiring that anyone elected to Con-
gress or to a state legislature must relinquish the right to practice law
until some time after his term ends. (Ten years sounds about right to me.)
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Steve Hooper
>
> I don't know about other people, but I live near a railroad
> and would rather that the engine did not continuously sound
> warning horns to keep stupid people off tracks!
In a suburb of Vancouver about 5 miles from CP Rail's main yard, the township
petitioned CP and the NTA for an anti-whistling bylaw.
We went into a town council meeting and showed a very graphic film of the
aftermath of a few railroad crossing accidents.
After the film, they voted. The council vote was something like 2 for, 9
against.
:)
--
steve_...@mindlink.bc.ca [] The Great White North in
OR a7...@mindlink.bc.ca [] Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Tom Vervaeke
Here's some more railroad stupidity - with me 15+ years ago as the dumb
one. On the CSX tracks in Harpers Ferry, WV there's a short 1/4 mile +/-
tunnel right next to the town. It's a two track tunnel and not that
busy. Well, one day we were hiking and decided it would be much SHORTER
to walk through the tunnel than around the road that goes around the
hill (about 1/3 mile longer).
Well, halfway through here comes a loud, fast coal train. We weren't
going to make it out, so we crossed the tracks to the unused track. The
tunnel was full of little "alcoves" so that it would be safe even with
two trains. well, guess what....? A second train, from the opposite
direction was approaching. Looked like a mixed freight. We got into one
of the little alcoves, which were only about 2 - 2.5 feet deep. Of
course, two large guys with backpacks could hardly fit. We were too
scared to think of moving to two separate alcoves. In any case, the
trains were so LOUD and STINKY in that tunnel I thought I was going to
pass out and fall on the tracks. I also believe each train must have
been about 10 miles long.
Moral of the story: I don't walk through tunnels anymore.
P.s. I now live in Colorado and a train buff friend from work tried to
talk me into walking through the Moffat tunnel. I believe it's a single
track tunnel and is 1/2+ miles long? No way.... (But I thought about
it).
( ___ )------------------------------------------------------------( ___ )
| / | Tom Vervaeke Email: tom_ve...@0800.desk.hp.com | \ |
| / | Technology Specialist Snail: 1900 Garden of the Gods Rd. | \ |
| / | Hewlett Packard Co. Colorado Springs, CO 80901 | \ |
| / | Colorado Springs, CO Voice : 719-590-2133 | \ |
| / | USA Fax : 719-590-2117 | \ |
| / |--------------------------------------------------------------| \ |
| / | Quote of the week... | \ |
|___| Quote deleted do to lack of creativity !!! |___|
(_____)------------------------------------------------------------(_____)
^ ^
Steven Bjork
>In a suburb of Vancouver about 5 miles from CP Rail's main yard, the township
>petitioned CP and the NTA for an anti-whistling bylaw.
>
>We went into a town council meeting and showed a very graphic film of the
>aftermath of a few railroad crossing accidents.
Any chance I can obtain a copy to show on our community's cable tv
system as part of a grass roots Operation Lifesaver? Palo Alto
had a young girl say "I can beat the train" and went past
the downed crossing gates.
She lost.
Such a tragedy.
--Steven
Evan L. Werkema
In a previous article, tver...@col.hp.com (Tom Vervaeke) says:
>Moral of the story: I don't walk through tunnels anymore.
>
>P.s. I now live in Colorado and a train buff friend from work tried to
>talk me into walking through the Moffat tunnel. I believe it's a single
>track tunnel and is 1/2+ miles long? No way.... (But I thought about
>it).
I'm pretty sure the Moffat is longer than that. It was the longest in the
US (world?) when it was built, and it's at least a mile, probably more.
Somehow I can't see the attraction of walking through tunnels. The scenery
isn't that great :), and with the really long ones like the Moffat or Cascade,
you run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
At the Raton Tunnel in NM, there's a nifty switchback grade the railroad used
while building the tunnel and that you can still walk for most of its length.
I'd guess that'd be much more interesting than the tunnel interior.
--
-----_._._,_,,_,__._._ _._.__,_,,_,_._._----
_Ioo I === ====I I==== === IooI____ I~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I
|_II___I____Santa Fe____I_| |_I__Evan Werkema__I__I___I_| I el...@po.cwru.edu I
`-~O==O~===========~O==O~-`~`-~O==O~=============~O==O~-`~~o==o~\/~\/~\/~o==o~
Craig Hinners
>
>Here's some more railroad stupidity - with me 15+ years ago as the dumb
>one. On the CSX tracks in Harpers Ferry, WV there's a short 1/4 mile +/-
>tunnel right next to the town. It's a two track tunnel and not that
>busy. Well, one day we were hiking and decided it would be much SHORTER
>to walk through the tunnel than around the road that goes around the
>hill (about 1/3 mile longer).
>
>
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but all traffic bet. DC/Baltimore
and Brunswick/West Virginy has to use this tunnel. A great watching spot
is on the bridge over the Potomac right where the tunnel emerges from the
rock cliff. The Appalachian Trail has a (fenced) walkway on the part of
the bridge that takes the track along the Shenendoah R. The bridge that
carries track further north along the Potomac (and, as a side note, the
Amtrak Capitol Limited to the Harper's Ferry Station) is only a hundred ft.
away or so. Not only is the scenery beautiful, but the trains are
plentiful. This walkway is only 5 or so yrs. old. I think before,
to follow the Appalachian Trail, you either had to swim across the
Potomac or walk across the trestle and pray!
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the tracks used to follow the path of the
road you are refering to and a different bridge over the Potomac
was used (you can still see some of the old abutments in the river).
Can't remember the date on the tunnel, but I seem to recall it's
1930-ish. Anyone want to confirm or deny this?
Craig Hinners
c...@wam.umd.edu
Randy Lambertus
>
>In a previous article, tver...@col.hp.com (Tom Vervaeke) says:
>
>>Moral of the story: I don't walk through tunnels anymore.
>>
>>P.s. I now live in Colorado and a train buff friend from work tried to
>>talk me into walking through the Moffat tunnel. I believe it's a single
>>track tunnel and is 1/2+ miles long? No way.... (But I thought about
>>it).
>
>--
If you want a safe tunnel, try the 5069' long former NYS&W tunnel
under Fairview/Cliffside Park/Edgewater, New Jersey. No trains run
through it any more. When I was in it in '91, there was still one
track through it, ableit under a foot of water. I went in about
quarter way until it got to dark to see clearly. There is a
platform of concrete on the northern side, encasing a pipeline,
that is/was unconnected on the Edgewater side. This platform makes
a great sidewalk, as you are about a foot above the water line. The
water seems to come from the Fairview side, rushing down a hillside and
into the right-of-way. I four wheeled up the Fairview side and most of the
track is littered with old washing machines and refrigerators, good
indicators for the current traffic status. In the old scale house on
the Edgewater side, I found some weighing slips dated 1989, so as far
as I can tell that must be the last time any thing must have occured
there.
On another note, I was just thinking about places to have an ideal
railroad layout, and it seemed that if one were to wall in both ends
of this tunnel, and make it creature comfortable, you could have one
BIG area to put a model of most branch lines. Consider, HO=87' to 1
real foot, then this tunnel, which is almost a mile, is then 83.5 HO
miles long! Enough length? Even passenger trains at 80 scale MPH would
take an hour to traverse the length. No fast clocks needed. Anyway it
was just a thought on how to use a space that will probably never be
used again, at least not in my lifetime.
Randy Lambertus Cray Research, Region 4 r...@uk.cray.com
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Matthew Geier
>In a reference to the boys being killed on the NS trestle.
>
>In my more stupid days in college in Shepherdstown, WV, a couple of us would
>walk across the N&W Potomac River trestle to Maryland on occasion. It said
>"No trespassing" as well. We were fortunate that on the half dozen times
I have to admit im guilty of walking accross railroad bridges and I
should know better - although I had the benefit of knowing local train
movements...
I walked across a double track bridge near where I lived. That stunt was
safe, one track was missing , and the other in no state to carry a train,
major line upgrading was in progress at the time. At various times
during that line upgrading I walked along a number of cuttings , that if
they were in use would be suicidal.. Having the rails actually missing
rather reduced the chance to being hit by a train . ( but being hit
by a truck or tractor working in the cutting was another matter... ).
Ive also walked accross the Macquarie River bridge in Dubbo, NSW. This
bridge has two trestle approaches with several iron box girder spans
over the actuall river. Single track, no decking, I walked steping
along the sleepers ( ties ).
In this case I knew there were no trains in the area - the local
station master had informed me that there was no traffic expected
in the area for the next 12 hours, other than a steam special for
which I had an extact time table for. The SM probably didnt expect
me to walk over the local river though... If the worse had occured
and an extra had run at short notice, there was a clear enough
view for me to see the train and for the train to see me quite
a distance off. I could have taken refuge in the bridges superstructure.
Id imagine that the police would have shortly followed had that had
happened.
In both cases a friend with me wouldnt follow , the first wouldnt
tresspass on railway land , the other was scared of heights....
matthew geier,
mat...@cs.su.oz.au
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
c...@wam.umd.edu (Craig Hinners) writes:
>Can't vouch for 15 years ago, but it isn't "not that busy" any more.
>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but all traffic bet. DC/Baltimore
>
You're right, except that the tunnel is WEST of Brunswick.
>Also, if I'm not mistaken, the tracks used to follow the path of the
>road you are refering to and a different bridge over the Potomac
>was used (you can still see some of the old abutments in the river).
>Can't remember the date on the tunnel, but I seem to recall it's
>1930-ish. Anyone want to confirm or deny this?
>
on opposite pages of Harpers Ferry in 1898 and 1968 (or something like that).
Compare the two, along with the topo map in the same excellent article, which
is all about railfan photo possibilities in the Harpers Ferry / Brunswick area.
Len Bachelder Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp. Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730 Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00...@mbvm.mitre.org>
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
- Charles Wesley
Garth G. Groff
If I remember correctly, the MT is slightly over
5 miles in length. It take the California Zephyr
about 10 minutes to traverse it.
Chris Best
> you run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
----------
Huh? Can you explain more about this? If it was a joke, I was a boob and
didn't get it. Does it have something to do with ventilation?
----------
----------
Interesting story:
When my wife was back in PA for her dad's funeral, she and her brother
took a ride on his ATV along the tracks by his house, and decided to
go through the tunnel (maybe 1/2 to 3/4 mile long) that we've all walked
through. When they were about halfway through the tunnel, a train came.
This tunnel had plenty of room on the sides, so there was no problem
with getting hit.
My wife had brought a camcorder along, and she taped the whole thing!
It was interesting to watch, but for those trying to make good audio
recordings - this is NOT the way to do it!
NY and PA folks might recognize the tunnel - it's immediately south
of the Nicholson Bridge, in Nicholson, PA.
Rich Rubel
Just FYI, the Moffatt Tunnel is 6.2 mi long. I've walked (abandoned and
torn-up) tunnels, and as was mentioned, it's boring.
[RICHR]
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
internet: laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Tom Vervaeke
I used to live close and railfanned there for years. I'd be glad to
answer any questions.
Here's a few points though:
1. Harpers Ferry is west of Brunswick. A 10-15 minute drive along the
back roads.
2. There's a decent sized yard in Brunswick. Lots of activity on CSX and
the rapid transit also services these too.
3. The tunnel in Harpers Ferry is a double tube, about 1/8 - 1/4 mile
long. On the sound end you can stand on the bridge that is just
about 100 yards from the sound end. Great place for photos.
4. There's a fair amount of traffic. Also, Amtrak comes whizzing through
once in a while.
Regards.
Andre' Hut
>Moral of the story: I don't walk through tunnels anymore.
>P.s. I now live in Colorado and a train buff friend from work tried to
>talk me into walking through the Moffat tunnel. I believe it's a single
>track tunnel and is 1/2+ miles long? No way.... (But I thought about
>it).
I've been through it several times on Amtrak. It's much longer than that.
I don't remember the exact figure, but it's more like 8 miles long! The
crew takes special precautions when Amtrak uses the tunnel. Because of
the smoke produced by diesel engines, passengers are asked to keep all
door/windows closed, and they won't let you walk between cars when
inside the tunnel. It seems like it takes about 10 minutes to get through.
After passing Moffat (Eastbound towards Denver), you then pass through
another 25 tunnels. They don't care about those.
No way should anyone ever consider walking through that tunnel.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are solely my own, and do not necessarily reflect those
of my employer.
Andre' Hut an...@slc.mentorg.com or utah-cs!caeco!andre
Mentor Graphics, Suite 300, 5295 South 300 West, Murray, Utah 84107
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Andre' Hut
>In article <1fk6nb...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> el...@po.CWRU.Edu (Evan L. Werkema) writes:
>>In a previous article, tver...@col.hp.com (Tom Vervaeke) says:
>>>Moral of the story: I don't walk through tunnels anymore.
>>>
>>>P.s. I now live in Colorado and a train buff friend from work tried to
>>>talk me into walking through the Moffat tunnel. I believe it's a single
>>>track tunnel and is 1/2+ miles long? No way.... (But I thought about
>>>it).
>>
>under Fairview/Cliffside Park/Edgewater, New Jersey. No trains run
> On another note, I was just thinking about places to have an ideal
>railroad layout, and it seemed that if one were to wall in both ends
>of this tunnel, and make it creature comfortable, you could have one
>BIG area to put a model of most branch lines. Consider, HO=87' to 1
>real foot, then this tunnel, which is almost a mile, is then 83.5 HO
>miles long! Enough length? Even passenger trains at 80 scale MPH would
>take an hour to traverse the length. No fast clocks needed. Anyway it
>was just a thought on how to use a space that will probably never be
>used again, at least not in my lifetime.
Lets see, 5069' would require 1689 sections of flex-track. Assuming that
you could get this in quanity at $1/section, would cost you nearly $1700.
Add the cost of structure, subroadbed, a mile of homasote/cork. Of course
you would want to have lots of sidings, where trains could meet. You
would almost have to dispatch it with train-orders. It sounds like a
semi-feasible project. A reasonably sized RR club could do it.
Jason Paul Togyer
house to McKeesport's (PA) MK Tower on CSX, via CSX's Youghiogheny River
Bridge.
The bridge is a modern, plate-girder type with a steel-and-wood walkway
along both sides, and all the signals showed red, so I figured I was
fairly safe.
After a P&LE hi-rail truck left, I thought I'd have no problem getting
away with it, so I walked up the track embankment and got onto the
walkway. Did I mention that it was early in the morning in the summer
(and very FOGGY?).
Well, anyways, I was halfway across when I could hear the sounds of
machinery (like an air-compressor). Of course, I couldn't see anything.
"Gee, I wonder what THAT is," I thought.
When I was 3/4 of the way across I began hearing voices far-off in the
distance. I still couldn't see anything, so I kept walking.
When I was almost to the other side I saw a hose running along the
walkway, and could see gandy-dancer shaped images directly in front of
me. Yes, CSX had picked that morning to start sandblasting and painting
the underside of the bridge. What could I do but walk past the track
crew? One of the guys even said, "Good morning!" Maybe it was because
I was wearing a hat with CSX and P&LE pins on it.
I got lucky, because they just as easily could've called the cops on me.
I don't quite know what the lesson I learned was-- Don't walk across RR
bridges, I guess, or Don't walk across RR bridges on foggy mornings...
--Jason Togyer
Carnegie Institute of Technology
Pittsburgh, Penn.
**"The moral of the story is: don't count your boobies before they've hatched."
--James Thurber, 'THE UNICORN IN THE GARDEN'
Doug Preiser
>
Tunnel story deleted.
>P.s. I now live in Colorado and a train buff friend from work tried to
>talk me into walking through the Moffat tunnel. I believe it's a single
>track tunnel and is 1/2+ miles long? No way.... (But I thought about
>it).
Would you believe 6 miles ? I believe that's how long the Moffat tunnel is.
>
>
>
>
>( ___ )------------------------------------------------------------( ___ )
> | / | Tom Vervaeke Email: tom_ve...@0800.desk.hp.com | \ |
> | / | Technology Specialist Snail: 1900 Garden of the Gods Rd. | \ |
> | / | Hewlett Packard Co. Colorado Springs, CO 80901 | \ |
> | / | Colorado Springs, CO Voice : 719-590-2133 | \ |
> | / | USA Fax : 719-590-2117 | \ |
> | / |--------------------------------------------------------------| \ |
> | / | Quote of the week... | \ |
> |___| Quote deleted do to lack of creativity !!! |___|
>(_____)------------------------------------------------------------(_____)
> ^ ^
>
Internet: pre...@cancer.unm.edu
Bitnet: preiser@unmb
Evan L. Werkema
In a previous article, c...@col.hp.com (Chris Best) says:
>> ...and with the really long [tunnels] like the Moffat or Cascade,
>> you run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
>
>----------
>
>Huh? Can you explain more about this? If it was a joke, I was a boob and
>didn't get it. Does it have something to do with ventilation?
I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but here's what I know. A long
tunnel like the Moffat Tunnel in Colorado or the Cascade Tunnel in Washington
would take a long time to ventilate all the exhaust gasses out after a train
passed through if it were left to natural ventilation. The problem would be
particularly bad if the apex of a pass occured inside. To help nature along,
therefore, railroads sometimes built fan houses and curtains at one end of
their long tunnels. The curtain would close when the fan was on so air
would be forced through the tunnel and out the far end. The fan house and
curtain on the Moffat Tunnel is on the east (Toland) side. The Cascade
Tunnel's fan is on the east end too.
The wind from the fan isn't too tremendous at the far end; I remember a
warm, smelly breeze blowing out of the west (Scenic) end of Cascade Tunnel when
I visited it with a tour group. When we visited the east end, though, we were
admonished not to stand too close to the curtain when the fan was on, since
when it opens, the fan is still winding down and has a tendency to kick up
debris. Moffat's curtain is gray, but Cascade's, last I saw, was painted
with white and red stripes, probably for visibilty if an engineer ran the
approach signal.
Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879
by an...@king.slc.mentorg.com (Andre' Hut):
> > On another note, I was just thinking about places to have an ideal
> >railroad layout, and it seemed that if one were to wall in both ends
> >of this tunnel, and make it creature comfortable, you could have one
> >BIG area to put a model of most branch lines.
> Lets see, 5069' would require 1689 sections of flex-track. Assuming that
> you could get this in quanity at $1/section, would cost you nearly $1700.
On the bright side, one nice thing about tunnels is the temperature
control. If you wall and insulate the ends, you should have nearly
constant temperature, year round. As I understand it, the tunnel in
question is through the Jersey Palisades, which are made of something
like hard quartzite. You shouldn't have bad water problems in such a
tunnel, but the humidity will get high when you ventilate in the summer,
unless you dehumidify all ventilation air on the way in. This might
run up your electric bill a bit.
Back to the original topic of this chain, when I was a young foolish
undergraduate at Carnegie Mellon, I spent some time in the railroad
tunnel that opens into Panther Hollow. The walk through the tunnel was
a bit on the dull side, but the other end opened into an interesting rail
junction.
The tunnel had little "duck holes" in the side walls, so if you were in
the tunnel when a train came through, you'd just duck into one. The
most impressive thing about being there when a train came through was the
sound of a diesel engine working hard pulling a long train up the upgrade
into the tunnel. The noise level was one of the highest I've ever
experienced, with incredible subsonics (the only thing I can remember
that comes close to it is the sound of a Saturn booster, as heard from
the VAB at the cape, but that's got more high frequency noise and less of
the really intense subsonics).
Although the noise is a "full body experience", I doubt you could do it
justice with a microphone and tape recorder, nor do I think you could
play it back effectively, even in a "sensurround" theater.
Doug Jones
jo...@cs.uiowa.edu
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
c...@col.hp.com (Chris Best) writes:
>
>> ...and with the really long [tunnels] like the Moffat or Cascade,
>> you run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
>
>----------
>
>Huh? Can you explain more about this? If it was a joke, I was a boob and
>didn't get it. Does it have something to do with ventilation?
>
>----------
one end that can be closed and giant fans to blow smoke out the other end.
If you didn't do this, the noxious gasses would tend to stay in the tunnel
after a train had passed through, and would soon build up to the point where
anyone in or out of a train who entered the tunnel would be asphyxiated. I
suspect that in snow country like Colorado, the doors can also be closed to
prevent the tunnel from being clogged by wind-driven snow.
>----------
>
>Interesting story:
>When my wife was back in PA for her dad's funeral, she and her brother
>took a ride on his ATV along the tracks by his house, and decided to
>go through the tunnel (maybe 1/2 to 3/4 mile long) that we've all walked
>through. When they were about halfway through the tunnel, a train came.
>This tunnel had plenty of room on the sides, so there was no problem
>with getting hit.
>
>My wife had brought a camcorder along, and she taped the whole thing!
>It was interesting to watch, but for those trying to make good audio
>recordings - this is NOT the way to do it!
>
>NY and PA folks might recognize the tunnel - it's immediately south
>of the Nicholson Bridge, in Nicholson, PA.
correct, it was once double track but now is single, which is why there is
plenty of room. Did she also walk across the bridge?
I have been tempted to comment on this thread before, and since I'm commenting
anyway, I'll add a general comment. There probably isn't a railroad bridge
anywhere in the country outside of major metropolitan areas that the local
folk don't regularly walk across, either for daredevil reasons or simply
because it's the easiest way to get across the river or whatever. My guess is
that in most cases, the "locals" know roughly when to expect a train - as we
all know there are thousands of lines that get one train a day or less, and it
runs at a maximum of 10 mph! A good example I know of is the bridge on the CN
commuter line between Roxboro and Ile Bigras. There's no road crossing the
river for miles, there's a wooden walkway on the bridge, and since there's
(almost) no freight on the line, train schedules are predictable. If you
doubt that it's a regular pedestrian crossing, just look at the well-worn paths
leading to the bridge on both ends! By saying all this, I don't pretend that
walking across a railroad bridge is either legal, smart, or safe - just that
it's widely done. Tunnels, though, are something else. Unless a tunnel is
very short, it's going to be darn dark inside there and even if you have a
lantern, you could easily step into a hole and twist an ankle or worse. And I
would guess that in many places, poisonous snakes and other undesirable
creatures tend to live in tunnels. Bridges, as has been noted, often have walk
ways and/or "platforms" every now and again for maintenance personnel and other
purposes. These things tend to minimize the danger when they're present and
where trains don't travel terribly fast - I wouldn't try it on the Northeast
Corridor Bridge over the Susquehanna R. at Perryville, for example. Again,
it's like so many other things in life - it's very dangerous if you don't know
what you're doing, but if you use your head, the danger, while still present,
is considerably lessened. Not to condone or recommend the practice, just
commenting that especially in rural areas, it's like the speed limits on the
highways - a rule that "everybody" routinely breaks.
I remember one year about 1960 when a flood took out the highway bridge across
the White River at White River Junction, VT. The railroad bridge was then the
only way to get from the residential parts of town to the business district,
and it became an officially sanctioned "footpath" until the Army Engineers got
a temporary road bridge in place.
Jermaster
>In a previous article, c...@col.hp.com (Chris Best) says:
>
>>> ...and with the really long [tunnels] like the Moffat or Cascade,
>>> you run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
> I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but here's what I know. A long
>tunnel like the Moffat Tunnel in Colorado or the Cascade Tunnel in Washington
>would take a long time to ventilate all the exhaust gasses out after a train
>passed through if it were left to natural ventilation. The problem would be
>particularly bad if the apex of a pass occured inside. To help nature along,
>therefore, railroads sometimes built fan houses and curtains at one end of
>their long tunnels. The curtain would close when the fan was on so air
>would be forced through the tunnel and out the far end. The fan house and
>curtain on the Moffat Tunnel is on the east (Toland) side. The Cascade
>Tunnel's fan is on the east end too.
In Trains magazine a couple years ago, I think in March 1990, there was a
story about the CP tunnel under Mount MacDonald on their new Rogers Pass
line, and it had a page about the ventilation system in that tunnel. I don't
remember the specifics, and the magazine is at home, but it has more info
about tunnel fans.
Later,
-Jer
--
Jerry W. Jordak They come from miles around to see it
a.k.a. Jermaster Heard about it but didn't believe it
(jw...@po.cwru.edu) It's gotta be the greatest thing you've ever seen.....
schu...@msus1.msus.edu
x92o...@gw.wmich.edu writes (in part):
> In article <921130232...@deepthought.cs.utexas.edu>,
> BHA...@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU (Bruce B. Harper) writes (in part):
>> The $10 million lawsuit was filed on September 25, 1992, in Henry
>> County on behalf of the mother of one of two teenagers killed while
>> crossing a railroad trestle.
>> were overtaken by a 101-car train.
>> suit. The memo was written on September 8, 1989 by the railroad's chief
>> attorney Wiley F. Mitchell, Jr. to T. E. Gurley, a Norfolk Southern
>> manager, following an incident in which a child was struck on the High
>> Bridge trestle on the Norfolk & Western near Farmville, Va.
>> protective devices at High Bridge. Part of the memo states (according to
>> the RT&WN) "Although the sounding of warnings on the engine horn and the
>> installation of the signs and other protective devices should reduce the
>> risk of accidents, the failure to maintain the signs and protective
>> devices, or the failure to sound a warning on the engine horn, will, in
>> the event of an accident, give a prospective plantiff a very sound legal
>> theory on which to assert liability against us." The memo also warns
>> that if the railroad puts warning devices at one trestle that it might
>> have to put them at all trestles.
>> The plaintiffs contend that this memo shows that Norfolk Southern put
>> money ahead of life by not installing warning devices. The railroad
>> contends that the boys were negligent and that they were trespassing.
>> In a follow-up article in the RT&WN on Nov. 24, a Norfolk Southern
>> spokesman defended the railroad's position. "Why should we pay any money
>> to warn people not to trespass on our property?" said Bob Auman, NS
>> spokesman. "We never invite these people to walk on our tracks," he said.
>> "How could we justify that expenditure [for elaborate warning devices] to
>> our stockholders or anyone else?"
>
> have known how unsafe a railroad bridge is.
In case anyone's interested, there are three main philosophies on
corporate responsibility for cases where a customer or general member
of the public is injuried or killed. Let me hasten to add that in
describing these philosophies I am NOT advocating one over the other.
Let me also point out that my discussion focuses on the moral
philosophies that are influencing the law, and not on the law itself.
Since I am not a lawyer, I am not in a position to describe the actual
legal nuances.
First, "contract theory," which holds that a firm's moral duties to
the public is created by contractual arrangements only. These
contractural arrangements might be explicit (e.g., express claims made
by the seller, such as during the sales pitch or in a sales contract)
or implicit (e.g., implied claims, such as the suitability of the
product for its ordinary uses). Under contract theory, the company
has a moral duty to comply with the terms of the deal, to disclose
relevant facts about the product and the deal, to not misrepresent
material facts, and to not coerce. Under this view, the railroad
would have no duty to pay anything because there was no contract. The
railroad would be further protected from liability by the fact that
the injuried parties were violating a law and trespassing.
Second, "due care theory," which holds that a firm has a moral duty to
exercise due care in protecting the public because the firm has
knowledge, expertise, and resources to do so. Under due care theory,
the firm has a moral duty to take reasonable steps to try to foresee
causes of possible harm and then to prevent those harms. Under this
view, the argument could be make that a railroad can reasonably
foresee that trespassers would not understand well the danger of
railroad bridges and would therefore have a moral duty to take
reasonable steps to protect the public. The question would then
become just how far does the railroad have to go in trying to protect
the public. Is the posting of signs enough? Or does the railroad
have a moral duty to do more? Some would probably argue, based on the
ineffectiveness of the signs alone, that railroads should do more.
Finally, "social costs theory," which holds that the firm is strictly
liable for all injuries all the time. This doctrine of strict
liability has the effect of internalizing all of the costs of
injuries. The firm, of course, will pass these costs on to consumers.
Thus, under this doctrine, all of the costs of injuries are shared by
the users who benefit by the product or service. Under this view, the
railroad would be fully responsible no matter what steps it took to
protect the public. The railroad would still have an incentive to
reduce unsafe practices in order to reduce these costs.
These moral philosophies have influenced the law over the years. Back
in the early days of this century, the law applied what was basically
a strictly limited version of contract theory: a customer could make
a legal claim against the manufacturer only if the customer dealt
directly with the manufacturer and there was a violation of a
contractural agreement. Over time, the legal responsibilities of
companies have been broadened substantially. Today's law certainly
encompasses contract theory and has strong elements of due care
theory. We have even begun to see application of some of the ideas
contained in social costs theory.
In any case, while social costs theory remains somewhat controversial,
the ideas contained in due care theory in practice have been pretty
influential. This accounts for many of the warning labels we see
today on products that warn of what may be pretty obvious hazards
(e.g., a warning label to not put your hands in a snow-blower while
its running).
Thus, I would not be surprised in the railroad bridge case to see some
debate over to what extent the railroad needs to take steps to protect
the public. I would not be surprised to see a court decide that signs
alone are not sufficient. Especially if evidence is presented that
this is a "popular shortcut," that the railroad knew it was being used
that way, and that the railroad had reasonable steps available to it
to protect the public (this is probably where the memo comes in).
Again, none of my comments should be interpreted as necessarily
supporting (or opposing for that matter) any of these views or trends.
Each of you can form your own opinions.
--
Paul L. Schumann, Ph.D. | VAX: IN%"schu...@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU"
Professor of Management | Office Phone: (507) 389-5349
Mankato State University | Secretary's Phone: (507) 389-2966
Mankato, MN 56002-8400 | Fax Number: (507) 389-5497
Charles E Thorne
>ani...@rtp-nc.mentorg.com (Mike Walsh) writes:
>> I don't know about other people, but I live near a railroad and would
>> rather that the engine did not continuously sound warning horns to keep
>> stupid people off tracks!
>The lawyers in the NS case will contend that the trestle is an "attractive
>nuisance" and therefore requires more protection than just a warning sign.
>And they will win.
>The underlying problem, of course, is that since most legislators are law-
>yers, laws are written primarily to benefit lawyers - an obvious conflict of
>interest.
Another underlying problem is that the courts have decided that the "rich"
corporations should pay rather than individuals, employees, consumers, etc.
In one of the appeals in the John Manville case (heirs of employees sueing
for lung damage from asbestos), John Manville argued that since it was not
scientific knowable at the time of the injury (in the 1930's) that they could
not be liable, since they could not have possibly known that their was a
danger.
The courts response was that since the corporation had enriched itself from
it's employees and consumers, it should consider paying for they "harm" it
did these people should be a cost of doing business. Of course, the fact that
these suits put John Manville in bankruptcy (and thus it is highly unlikely
anyone but the lawyers will collect) is totally irrelevant.
Charlie
paulhicks
at the end of Heathrow Airport, London, England, when the Concord
took off for America. I could not hear myself think and the entire
ground shook. It was awsome!
Paul
PS Yeah, I do know that this is irrelevant, however during this
particular trip to England I did buy A Flying Scotsman trains set
to bring back to the States.
--
__________________________________________________________________
|"...and on the eigth day god created the Sauter Mean Diameter." |
| - D.W.Senser |
|________________________________________________________________|
Dave Pierson
writes...
>> ...and with the really long [tunnels] like the Moffat or Cascade,
>> you run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
>Huh? Can you explain more about this? If it was a joke, I was a boob and
>didn't get it. Does it have something to do with ventilation?
Cascade tunnel has a blower (sucker??) at the East Portal. It helps
change the air and is remotely controlled on the passage of trains.
The Hoosac (4.7 mi, Western Mass) has a humongous blower on top of
a shaft used in the original boring, which helps ventilation. Hoosac
has a "garage door" sometimes called the storm door, at the West End,
to keep snow out. (Purpose documented). Walkers from the East End
miche well have to walk BACK. (Its alos been used to trap trespassers
until the PD can arrive.... The Hoosac tunnel blower was added when the
electrification was removed (There may have been one in steam days...).
thanks
dave pierson |the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation |the opinions, my own.
40 Old Bolton Rd |I am the NRA.
Stow, Mass USA 01775 pie...@msd26.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing." A J Raffles
NEW YORKER IN EXILE
>
>Just FYI, the Moffatt Tunnel is 6.2 mi long. I've walked (abandoned and
>torn-up) tunnels, and as was mentioned, it's boring.
I guess it depends. Subway tunnels are pretty interesting --- at first, anyway.
Perhpas there would be more interest if I had done it in tunnels where trains
were running.
One quick note... while wandering down a sloping and curving portion of the then
unopened 63rd Street tunnel in Manhattan, a train appeared on the tracks in
front of us. What a surprise! It wasn't even moving, but just seeing it in
such close quarters without anticipating it and in such close quarters was
a little unnerving. Turns out it was being used as a layup track for the
JFK express when its terminus was still 57 Street and 6 Avenue.
Anyone wander onto tracks in NYC? I've done 63rd and Archer Avenue a few
times. I'd liek to see some of the unused connections and old stations up
close sometime.
On a final quick note... I knew of a businessman in the City who would have
a change of work clothes in his office and flourescent vest and hardhat from
the TA... on lunchhours, he'd simply go to the local station hop down with
a flashlight and go for a walk.
mark foggin
mccar...@ab.wvnet.edu
some Crossing Safety Films because like in Phillipi WV there is an average of
about three trains a day, most of which are moving about 30m/h. The crossings
only have flashing lights (which would be enough IF people would pay
attention), but as usual someone who doesn't know anything gets hit.
The one thing I am still trying to figure out is why Chessie System
chose to place gates and flashers 16 miles up a branch line that doesn't hardly
see any traffic anymore, but when it did it was only one train a day moving at
yard limit speed. It kind of makes me wounder what they were thinking about
when they decided to do this? Why didn't they spend the money where it was
needed?
BTW When they installed the crossings and flashers, there was a lot more trains
moving through Phillipi than at the present time. The crossings in Phillipi
are also in a blind turn one way and blocked by a covered bridge in the other.
Greg McCartney
ab.wvnet.edu
Derrick J. Brashear
>undergraduate at Carnegie Mellon, I spent some time in the railroad
>tunnel that opens into Panther Hollow. The walk through the tunnel was
>a bit on the dull side, but the other end opened into an interesting rail
>junction.
my high school is near the "dull side". We could hear, and often see the
trains go by out the windows from classes. One night after a football
game which our side won, a few of players and band members went down on
the tracks and got drunk. A friend of mine and I had to go drag them to
safety when we heard a train whistle down in the tunnel. Luckily, it was
a local.
-D
Rich Rubel
The "Stnad by Me" movie was artistic license on the novells "The Body.'
In the book, it was a diesel, not a steam, train, and it was doing closer
to 50 mph than 15. There was also a blind curve leading to the bridge.
That whole story fits into this discussion- the boys were off in search of
a kid who'd gotten hit by a train.
andr...@woods.ulowell.edu
scene were the main characters, (young teenage boys about 14 say) are crossing
on a railroad bridge when a train comes. Theatrics say, keep the train moving
for the effect, but in reality wouldn't the train attempt to stop? It was
only going maybe 10-15mph max so should have been able to stop with no problem,
right, or am I incorrect here. I thought I heard a long time ago, that trains
could not stop on a bridge, but I am more than sure this is an old wives tale.
Would someone like to comment?
Randy Lambertus
>In article <1992Dec3.0...@telebit.com>, bj...@telebit.com (Steven Bjork) writes:
>> In article <18...@mindlink.bc.ca> Steve_...@mindlink.bc.ca (Steve Hooper) writes:
>>
>> Any chance I can obtain a copy to show on our community's cable tv
>> system as part of a grass roots Operation Lifesaver? Palo Alto
>> had a young girl say "I can beat the train" and went past
>> the downed crossing gates.
>>
>> She lost.
>>
>> Such a tragedy.
>>
>> --Steven
> I think our PBS station here in Norther West Virginia needs to show
>some Crossing Safety Films because like in Phillipi WV there is an average of
>about three trains a day, most of which are moving about 30m/h. The crossings
>only have flashing lights (which would be enough IF people would pay
>attention), but as usual someone who doesn't know anything gets hit.
>
>are also in a blind turn one way and blocked by a covered bridge in the other.
>
> Greg McCartney
> ab.wvnet.edu
>
As we have been discussing grade crossing accidents, the following
three articles describe an accident on Saturday, November 28, in which a
17-year-old died tragically after driving through a crossing barrier and
into a string of coaches on the electric MU line into Reading, Berkshire,
England. The line starts at Waterloo Station in London and runs to
Reading. It is mostly double track, electrified third rail, with a
minimum of grade crossings. If you are not interested, please hit 'k'
now.
Randy.
**********************************************************************
"There was a big bang as the train leapt into the air"
Report by Shelly Rister
Wokingham Times December 3, 1992
Passengers on the Saturday 8:57 A.M train to Reading heard a terrific
bang and felt the train jump into the air.
They knew it was an emergency, but didn't know the extent of the
tragedy.
This was the moment that Wokingham teenager Elizabeth Arnold crashed
through the barrier at the Star Lane Crossing, Easthampstead Road, and
hit the train.
The 17-year-old student's white Mini Metro car smashed into the third
carriage and derailed the fourth carriage half a mile up the track.
Passengers on the train, none of whom were injured, said the car had
showed no sign of stopping.
Passenger Mark Trowsdale, from Camberly said: "There was a big bang as
the train leapt into the air and came down on the rails. The car driver
did not stop and the car slammed into the side of the coach. It was
completely destroyed. The engine was ripped off and trapped underneath
the train."
An eyewitness who lives next to the crossing at Easthampstead Road said
he had been asleep when he heard a massive bang.
All the 50 passengers were removed from the train and taken to a
private house in Gipsy Lane where they were examined by ambulance crews.
They were then taken to Wokingham station by bus where they resumed
their journeys.
An ambulance spokesman said the driver of the train had not been
injured but they expected he would be suffering from shock.
Police, fire and ambulance officials remained at the scene for over
five hours and the level crossing was sealed off until 7 A.M. on Sunday.
Passengers heading to Reading left trains at Bracknell and were
transported by bus to Wokingham, Winnersh, Winnersh Triangle and Earley.
Those heading towards London were transported by bus from Wokingham
station to Bracknell and then caught the train to Waterloo Station.
Cars heading towards Crowthorne were diverted along Waterloo Road and
those heading towards Wokingham on the Easthampstead Road were stopped by
police at the junction of Heathlands Road and told to turn around.
But what was at most an inconvenience for travellers was a deep tragedy
for Elizabeth's parents. This week they were trying to come to terms with
the loss of their daughter.
(Two photos accompany the article, the first showing a string of coaches
with one car being rerailed by BR workers, the second showing the barrier
crossing, the arm is in the down position with the top/outermost half
dangling by the warning light wires towards the ground.)
************************************************************************
"Barriers are safe, says BR"
Wokingham Times December 3, 1992
British Rail accident investigators were this week trying to find out
why the Star Lane tragedy happened.
Elizabeth Arnold's car crashed through the half barrier, hit the
Reading-bound train and was flung 30 feet along the railway line.
The train was traveling between 50 and 60 MPH.
It came to a halt half a mile down the line. None of the 56 passengers
was injured.
Investigators believe Elizabeth could have been blinded by the low sun
which blocked visibility of the unmanned crossing, which is on the
Easthampstead Road.
If this happened, she may not have seen the lights were red.
A British Rail spokesman said today: "We will be taking reports from
other drivers using the crossing and the guard on the train. This will
cover everything, including the position of the sun. We are sure the half
barriers are safe and were in working order at the time of the accident."
Police, fire and ambulance officials remained at the accident scene for
over five hours on Saturday and the level crossing was sealed off until 7
A.M. on Sunday.
British Rail has now launched a full-scale inquiry.
Chief Inspector John Reeve explained: "It is early days yet, but it
appears that the crossing was working correctly and that she went through
the half barrier as the train was there."
A British Rail spokesman reiterated that it was believed the crossing
had been working correctly.
Police are appealing for witness to the accident.
************************************************************************
"So popular, so full of life"
Report by Shelly Rister
Wokingham Times December 3, 1992
Elizabeth Arnold was a bright, popular teenager who was looking forward
eagerly to going to university.
She had just passed here driving test and had set off in her white Mini
Metro on Saturday to coach a class of young gymnasts.
Elizabeth was killed instantly when her car hit the side of a moving
train at the Star Lane level crossing just before 9 A.M.
The car crashed through the safety barrier and ploughed into the third
carriage of the Waterloo to Reading train, which was derailed in the
collision.
Just minutes after the accident her father, Dr. Peter Arnold, arrived
at the scene to find the wreckage of the car. He had realized to his
horror what had happened.
Peter and his wife had received a call from the Pinewood Gym Club
saying that Elizabeth had not turned up for the coaching session.
Peter said: "It was the worst day of my life but it started out as a
normal Saturday with Elizabeth going off to Pinewood as usual. I thought
something must have happened and I went out looking for her after the gym
club phoned. I went along Waterloo Road and saw the crossing had been
sealed off. I walked up past the paramedic and police cars and saw the
wreckage of the car. I realized what must have happened but could not
take in how awful it was. The police asked me if there would have been
anyone in the car with her and assured me she would not have known
anything about it. A woman police officer drove me back home. When my
wife and daughter saw the police car they realized what had happened."
Elizabeth's parents and her 20-year-old sister Rosie are devastated by
the tragedy.
Her seven-year-old brother Christopher is coping because he does not
really understand what has happened.
This week Elizabeth's parents spoke lovingly about their daughter -
known as Lizzie to family and friends.
They are still coming to terms with the tragedy. Talk of their daughter
is still in the present, not the past.
(Article goes on describing her social life, school ambitions,
achievements and so forth - anyone interested in these details please
drop me some email...............Randy.)
( A photo shows the car, or rather the twisted sheet metal remains, on
the track. If anyone is interested I could scan it and ftp it to a
suitable location.)
Randy Lambertus Cray Research, Region 4 r...@uk.cray.com
*******************************************************************************
\ ___________________
\ \ ___>--__________________/_#######_|_#######_\__________________--<___
= = }(___________________S__U__S__Q__U__E__H__A__N__N__A___________________)
/ / ||O| ___ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ___ |O||
/ || | |___| |____| |____| |____| |____| |____| |____| |___| | ||
||_|______________________________M 1______________________________|_||
||_|_______/=====\___________________________________/=====\_______|_||
/|__| (o)=(o) |_______| |_______| (o)=(o) |__|\
Ernest H. Robl
Those of you interested in obtaining a railroad safety film for
local showing should try the Association of American Railroads.
The following number is for the AAR library in Washington, DC.
If they don't handle distribution of such films, they can point
you to someone who does.
AAR Library (202) 639-2334; FAX (202) 639-2986
FYI: The library is part of AAR's Public Affairs unit, so it does
provide information to the general public -- not just to AAR
member railroads.
-- Ernest
--
"My other computer is a Nikon N8008." -- Ernest H. Robl
Ernest H. Robl (ehr@ecsvax) Durham, NC, USA +1 919 286-3845
FAX: +1 919 286-1696
This .signature exceeds plate C specifications (for rec.railroad fans)
x92o...@gw.wmich.edu
>
> In a previous article, tver...@col.hp.com (Tom Vervaeke) says:
>
>>Moral of the story: I don't walk through tunnels anymore.
>>
>>talk me into walking through the Moffat tunnel. I believe it's a single
>>track tunnel and is 1/2+ miles long? No way.... (But I thought about
>>it).
>
> US (world?) when it was built, and it's at least a mile, probably more.
> Somehow I can't see the attraction of walking through tunnels. The scenery
> isn't that great :), and with the really long ones like the Moffat or Cascade,
> you run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
>
> while building the tunnel and that you can still walk for most of its length.
> I'd guess that'd be much more interesting than the tunnel interior.
>
> --
> -----_._._,_,,_,__._._ _._.__,_,,_,_._._----
> _Ioo I === ====I I==== === IooI____ I~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I
> |_II___I____Santa Fe____I_| |_I__Evan Werkema__I__I___I_| I el...@po.cwru.edu I
> `-~O==O~===========~O==O~-`~`-~O==O~=============~O==O~-`~~o==o~\/~\/~\/~o==o~
I've heard that a good way to see how fast the police can act is to try to
walk through the tunnel(CP I believe) under the Detroit River, from Michigan
to Ontario(crossing the border without going through customs.) There are
many cameras there to prevent people from illegally crossing the border.
Trying to walk through this tunnel his highly not recommended!
Jeff
Robert Chambers
It's kind of morbid in a way, but I think if I show it to enough people
around here that aren't as into trains as I am it might instill a bit
more respect for level crossings and trains.
Something like a public service announcement.
From the article mentioning how long she had her driving license it also
might be a case of the driver panicking and being unable to stop rather
than being blinded by the sun. A terrible shame none the less.
Robert
Eddie Van Huffel
> The courts response was that since the corporation had enriched itself from
> it's employees and consumers, it should consider paying for they "harm" it
> did these people should be a cost of doing business. Of course, the fact tha
> anyone but the lawyers will collect) is totally irrelevant.
>
> Charlie
And then people wonder what is happening to the National Economy. The
sources of product is being ripped off by the legal system, and laying
off employees, and going out of business, and in the process, puts people
out of work.
Love it!!!
--
ed...@railnet.nshore.ORG (Eddie Van Huffel)
Railnet BBS +1 216 786 0476
Eddie Van Huffel
> As an aside, in the movie (I know groan) "Stand By Me", there is a
> scene were the main characters, (young teenage boys about 14 say) are crossin
> on a railroad bridge when a train comes. Theatrics say, keep the train moving
> for the effect, but in reality wouldn't the train attempt to stop? It was
> only going maybe 10-15mph max so should have been able to stop with no proble
> right, or am I incorrect here. I thought I heard a long time ago, that trains
> could not stop on a bridge, but I am more than sure this is an old wives tale
> Would someone like to comment?
>
You are indeed correct. The train, due to its low tonnage, could have
stopped in about 1/2 train length, thus it could have stopped before
coming onto the trestle. I am afraid that some judges, courts, and
juries watch too many movies, and lose sight of reality. I remember
someone asking on the net if train crews shot at "extra deadheads" which
was so perposterous that I had a good laugh. However these ideas come
from the fantasy makers out west, and have people believing them.
Kershner Wyatt
>I don't know about other people, but I live near a railroad
>and would rather that the engine did not continuously sound
>warning horns to keep stupid people off tracks!
How about living at a house where the lot width is the distance between
the two whistle signs? I get it from both sides. You can tell who
probably had a close call with his train recently, they just continue to
whistle the whole length from where they started the first whistle.
And of course, they're the one's moving 15 mph, not 45. :)
BTW, if and when I move, I want a home about 5 miles from a track. I'll
go to watch trains on MY SCHEDULE...
--
Kershner Wyatt
kwy...@ccscola.ColumbiaSC.ncr.com
My opinions are my own and aren't necessarily my employer's.
COIFMAN
Just last week I was involved in a conversation about Moffat. As the
conversation went, the tunnel is about 7 miles long (I saw some one
quote 6.2 a few letters back and I would tend to believe that figure)
and is not that interesting to go through, except, at some point in the
middle, there is a sign that effectively says, "you are crossing the
Continential Divide".
r++-----------,---,-------------. Benn Coifman
/~____________/ ""|| @ | zep...@cory.berkeley.edu
/ o-o (*) (*) o : o-o-o o-o zep...@robotics.berkeley.edu
Hudson Leighton
allowed/told by the operator to place some empty soda cans in front of the
curtain just before it opened. His coment was that the cans went into orbit
as the curtain opened.
UUCP: {crash tcnet}!orbit!pnet51!hudson
INET: hud...@pnet51.orb.mn.org
ICBM: Lat. 44.59 x lon. 93.13
HAM: N0NMX 444.100 repeater
Advertisement: Try the Railway Post Office BBS (612) 377-2197 a Railfan BBS
Robert Coe
> The courts response was that since the corporation had enriched itself from
> it's employees and consumers, it should consider paying for they "harm" it
> did these people should be a cost of doing business. Of course, the fact
> likely anyone but the lawyers will collect) is totally irrelevant.
This discussion is starting to veer away from railroads, but....
The court's judgement in the Johns Manville case was indeed absurd, but let's
be clear about what happened next. The judgement did not "put Johns Manville
into bankruptcy"; Johns Manville put *itself* into bankruptcy in the hope
that the courts would eventually approve a reorganization plan in which the
impact of the judgement on the company's assets would be reduced. Otherwise,
the judgements would have had to be paid, regardless of their effect on fu-
ture operations of the company. The plaintiffs argued, of course, that Man-
ville was exaggerating its inability to pay the judgements and that the bank-
ruptcy was unnecessary. I don't know what the courts finally decided.
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Steve Hooper
>
> If the worse had occured
> and an extra had run at short notice, there was a clear enough
> view for me to see the train and for the train to see me quite
> a distance off. I could have taken refuge in the bridges superstructure.
Yeah, and been shaken off by the vibration...I wonder if the father of the
family (two young girls 8 and 10, plus a two year old son, plus his 30 year
old wife) that I killed back in '89 with a loaded grain train at 50 mph
thought the same thing as they proceeded out into the middle of a two-track
bridge?
Amazing how you justify that "you knew" this and that.....chances are you
DID, and I am not debating that. By why take the chance, assuming you are
like everyone else and you do not know everything?
> In both cases a friend with me wouldnt follow , the first wouldnt
> tresspass on railway land , the other was scared of heights....
At least SOMEONE had some brains.
--
steve_...@mindlink.bc.ca [] The Great White North in
OR a7...@mindlink.bc.ca [] Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Conductor on the Cascade Sub. [] CP Rail
Opinions are my OWN!
Steve Hooper
>
> The bridge is a modern, plate-girder type with a steel-and-wood walkway
> along both sides, and all the signals showed red, so I figured I was
> fairly safe.
Yet another myth for people that don't understand how signal systems work.
=== === =
= Y
#######################################################################
X = =
=== ===
People approaching the bridge from right to left encounter signal Y first.
Depending on the type of signal system used, it could be RED/RED. The reason
for this is because signal Y is displaying GREEN/RED, which means a train is
signalled through the block! Yet people wander out assuming that since
signal X is RED/RED, nothing could be coming.
There are many other different situations and I am not giving a lesson in
railroad signalling. What I am trying to point out is, unless you KNOW how
the signal system in that particular case works (ie from an employee
timetable, since it could be a MANUAL interlocking, a AUTOMATIC interlocking,
maybe NOT an interlocking, just a block, maybe the signals are out of service
and it's just Train Warrant Control), don't even THINK about relying on the
signal system to tell you if a train is coming.
Matt Pedersen
I recall reading (some ten years ago) about some kids who were
rappelling from the C&NW bridge across the Des Moines river in
Iowa. Apparently they tied their ropes *around* the rail and
when the train came by it severed the lines and they fell to
their deaths.
I also recall hearing about a man who cut across the tracks in
front of his stopped commuter train (three track main). A
second train comes along on the outside track, meanwhile his
commuter takes off for the next station. No problem, right?
He just stands on the middle track, that is until a third train
comes along. He ended up laying down on the ground between the
tracks (not between the rails) and the trains passed over him.
I'll bet watching trains from *that* vantage point would be
a totally different sensation.
Matt Pedersen mattp@phred
Dan Meyer
> The one thing I am still trying to figure out is why Chessie System
>chose to place gates and flashers 16 miles up a branch line that doesn't hardly
>see any traffic anymore, but when it did it was only one train a day moving at
>yard limit speed. It kind of makes me wounder what they were thinking about
>when they decided to do this? Why didn't they spend the money where it was
>needed?
>
>
> ab.wvnet.edu
>
Probably because sombody else's money (yours and mine in the form of taxes)
paid for the installation. It's what we get for continuing to elect a largely
democratic congress.
-- Dan Meyer
Remember: " Buffalo never Oink " Seen on a South Dakota travel brocure.
Advertisment: Try the Railway Post Office , a railfan BBS ! (612) 377-2197.
UUCP: {crash tcnet}!orbit!pnet51!rambler
INET: ram...@pnet51.orb.mn.org
Evan L. Werkema
In a previous article, ma...@phred.UUCP (Matt Pedersen) says:
>I recall reading (some ten years ago) about some kids who were
>rappelling from the C&NW bridge across the Des Moines river in
>Iowa. Apparently they tied their ropes *around* the rail and
>when the train came by it severed the lines and they fell to
>their deaths.
If that's the bridge at Ft. Dodge, IA, all I can say is they must have been
out of their minds. That bridge spans a valley above the river (and the CC&P
ex-ICG main) and must be at least half a mile long and several hundred feet
high. If memory serves, it's deck-truss construction, single track. It's
impressive to look at, but I'd never even think of setting foot on it.
Craig Dewick
> I'm pretty sure the Moffat is longer than that. It was the longest in the
>US (world?) when it was built, and it's at least a mile, probably more.
>Somehow I can't see the attraction of walking through tunnels. The scenery
>isn't that great :), and with the really long ones like the Moffat or Cascade,
>you run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
Here in NSW, Australia, there is a former railway tunnel that's 5082 feet
in length, and is straight for almost all of this. It was abandoned in
the 1920's when a new route was opened, but was used until the early
1980's as a mushroom farm (now out of business). The tunnel is in VERY
good condition, although th floor's a little sandy and wet. The vertical
vent shaft that runs up from the middle of it is also still open (you can
see the sunlight if you look straight up).
--
Craig Dewick | - Railway Preservation Industries -
Send email to: | Supporting the Preservation
cr...@kralizec.zeta.org.au | of Australia's Railway Heritage
David L. Boone
Werkema) writes:
>
> In a previous article, ma...@phred.UUCP (Matt Pedersen) says:
>
> >I recall reading (some ten years ago) about some kids who were
> >rappelling from the C&NW bridge across the Des Moines river in
> >Iowa. Apparently they tied their ropes *around* the rail and
> >when the train came by it severed the lines and they fell to
> >their deaths.
>
> If that's the bridge at Ft. Dodge, IA, all I can say is they must have been
> out of their minds. That bridge spans a valley above the river (and the CC&P
> ex-ICG main) and must be at least half a mile long and several hundred feet
> high. If memory serves, it's deck-truss construction, single track. It's
> impressive to look at, but I'd never even think of setting foot on it.
No, it was the C&NW's double-track mainline bridge West of Boone, Iowa, also
known as the Kate Shelley Memorial High Bridge. It's in the neighborhood of
160 feet high and 2400 or 2800 feet long. (I never can remember these figures,
and my references are all at home.) It was rumored that the fools in question
were intoxicated at the time.
Btw, the bridge you're recalling was the Chicago Great Western bridge on their
Mason City-Council Bluffs line. It is, indeed, constructed as you state,
although not more than 150 or so feet high. The remaining portion of this line
(Mason City to Somers) is now owned by the C&NW, connecting with the line to
Grand Juction, IA, (former M&StL) at Mooreland, and with their ex-Rock Island
line (Twin Star Rocket route) at Mason City.
--
David L. Boone
Engineer, Iowa State University Computation Center
Internet: dbo...@iastate.edu Bitnet: gn.dlb@isumvs
Voice: (515) 294-1977 US mail: 74 Durham Hall, Ames, IA 50011
Steve Hooper
>
> I also recall hearing about a man who cut across the tracks in
> front of his stopped commuter train (three track main). A
> second train comes along on the outside track, meanwhile his
> commuter takes off for the next station. No problem, right?
> He just stands on the middle track, that is until a third train
> comes along. He ended up laying down on the ground between the
> tracks (not between the rails) and the trains passed over him.
> I'll bet watching trains from *that* vantage point would be
> a totally different sensation.
I mentioned this last month....as a yardman, it does happen. You may be
pulling a cut of cars out, while on the next track another yard goat is
shoving cars in. In this case you just stop your movement and wait for them
to finish, and if you still are dizzy, you lay down, as you mentioned, in the
"Devil's Strip" on your stomach so you do not fall into the passing
equipment.
James B. VanBokkelen
> ...and with the really long [tunnels] like the Moffat or Cascade, you
> run the risk of the curtain at the far end being shut and huge fan on.
Huh? Can you explain more about this? If it was a joke, I was a boob and
didn't get it. Does it have something to do with ventilation?
Since the first long tunnels (Hoosac in 1871, etc), there's typically
been a vent fan which blows air in. Sometimes this is in the middle,
if a central shaft was dug during construction, sometimes it's at the
end. I suppose the end door originated at some site where the fan
was at the end, to keep most of the air from going out the nearby
portal where it wouldn't do any good.
Later (diesel era), they installed them on one end of centrally-ventilated
tunnels, too. I think this was because of the tendency of a train to push
the air along with it, which resulted in the diesels getting overheated
and suffocated. Keeping the door closed except when a train is actually
passing through the portal forces the air to blow past the train as it
moves. I guess this was less of an issue with steam power, since they
usually entered tunnels with as much steam pressure and as little fire as
the engine crew could manage. Even if the fire didn't burn well, the
energy in the boiler would help get them through.
Hoosac (4.75 mi.) got its door in the early 50s. Moffat had a door at
that time, but it may date further back. In my travels on Amtrak I
haven't noticed doors on any tunnels in the 0.5 - 2 mi. range, and I
can think off-hand of any I've been through in the 2 - 4 mile range.
James B. VanBokkelen 2 High St., North Andover, MA 01845
FTP Software Inc. voice: (508) 685-4000 fax: (508) 794-4488
btif...@pbs.org
>> tracks (not between the rails) and the trains passed over him.
>> I'll bet watching trains from *that* vantage point would be
>> a totally different sensation.
>
>
> I mentioned this last month....as a yardman, it does happen. You may be
> pulling a cut of cars out, while on the next track another yard goat is
> shoving cars in. In this case you just stop your movement and wait for them
> to finish, and if you still are dizzy, you lay down, as you mentioned, in the
> "Devil's Strip" on your stomach so you do not fall into the passing
> equipment.
When I worked for SP one of the rules covered this (they had rules for
everything, and more besides). If you're in between two tracks with cars
moving on each track you're supposed to kneel down on one knee and stay
put. It *does* become rather disorienting, and you start to lose your
sense of balance.
-- Bruce Tiffany
Robert Coe
> When I worked for SP one of the rules covered this ... If you're in be-
> tween two tracks with cars moving on each track you're supposed to kneel
> down on one knee and stay put. It *does* become rather disorienting, and
> you start to lose your sense of balance.
Not just that; by getting as close as possible to the ground, you minimize
the likelihood of getting hit by something projecting sideways from the load.
As several have mentioned, things do project *downwards* from the couplers
and elsewhere, but most things that project sideways are above the wheels.
Warren Brill
> In article <1fvuls...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, el...@po.CWRU.Edu (Evan L.
> Werkema) writes:
> >
> > In a previous article, ma...@phred.UUCP (Matt Pedersen) says:
>
[bunch of stuff deleted]
> Btw, the bridge you're recalling was the Chicago Great Western bridge on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Model Railroader ran an article a couple of
months ago on a ficticious CGW "bridge road"
supposedly created out of the wreckage of
the CGW, and my impression was that CGW is
no more, that this was all made-up. Is this
true, or is the CGW still existant. BTW,
is there an up-to-date register of Class 1
lines like there is for short lines?
[more stuff deleted]
> --
> David L. Boone
> Engineer, Iowa State University Computation Center
> Internet: dbo...@iastate.edu Bitnet: gn.dlb@isumvs
> Voice: (515) 294-1977 US mail: 74 Durham Hall, Ames, IA 50011
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
o i---i_________________ o
o Warren T. Brill, a.k.a. *----|[|]| #### #### #### |* o
o wbr...@hpxxx.fc.hp.com i_|___/|___|\________________|_i o
o wbr...@hpfcso.fc.hp.com =++()=()=() `========' ()=()=()++= o
o =================================== o
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Bob Wier
some yahoo decided to walk thru the tunnel, got offed by a train,
and now the RR is being sued. Kind of reminds me of the
situation my partner and I have with some acreage in S.W.
Colorado. We have to carry liability insurance in case some
body trepasses onto the land and then gets hurt while
trepassing ....
Anyway, this would explain something I ran into this summer.
I was back on the font range for a couple of days and decided
to drive up to look at Central City (amazing!) and on to
East Portal since I hadn't been there in 20 years (GAWD!)
since I was an undergrad at Boulder. When I got there,
there were VERY distinct unfriendly vibes - lot of warning
signs, and a RR truck parked SIDEWAYS across the access
road to keep you from driving up to the entrance. Bummer -
I got some great photos there way back when of operations
around the tunnel entrance (sigh)...
Another bummer is that I continued on up to the Giant's Ladder
but found that Needle's Eye was still collapsed to the point
where it wasn't passable (although you could walk thru). And
the Forest Service (or BLM - can't remember which) had managed
to block the Rollins Pass road so you couldn't take a Jeep on
over to Corona, by going the alternate route from Yankee Doodle
Lake, either.
All in all, a very disappointing trip. I wonder if someone from
the area can post an update if conditions are expected to change
any next season?
THANKS
- Bob Wier
---------- insert favorite standard disclaimers here ----------
College of Engineering
Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff Arizona
Internet: r...@naucse.cse.nau.edu | WB5KXH | fax:602 523 2300
John Wilson
but then collapsed again, and there were people there and one
of them lost a foot. There was talk of blocking the
tunnel or skylighting it. I think the conclusion that repairing
it was no longer an option.
John Wilson
David L. Boone
writes:
> In rec.railroad, dbo...@IASTATE.EDU (David L. Boone) writes:
> > Btw, the bridge you're recalling was the Chicago Great Western bridge on
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Model Railroader ran an article a couple of
> months ago on a ficticious CGW "bridge road"
> supposedly created out of the wreckage of
> the CGW, and my impression was that CGW is
> no more, that this was all made-up. Is this
> true, or is the CGW still existant. BTW,
> is there an up-to-date register of Class 1
> lines like there is for short lines?
As I recall, the CGW was merged into the Chicago & North Western in '60 or '61.
(I can never remember dates.) Many railroads' corporate entities exist long
after such mergers through spin-offs, operating some business such leasing cars
owned by the pre-merger road but not absorbed in the merger, or dealing with
real estate which wasn't desired in the merger for some reason. I don't know
if this is true in the case of CGW.
Happy Holidays, everyone!
Jon Roma
>As I recall, the CGW was merged into the Chicago & North Western in '60 or '61.
>(I can never remember dates.) Many railroads' corporate entities exist long
>after such mergers through spin-offs, operating some business such leasing cars
>owned by the pre-merger road but not absorbed in the merger, or dealing with
>real estate which wasn't desired in the merger for some reason. I don't know
>if this is true in the case of CGW.
The CGW was merged into the C&NW on July 1, 1968. You may be thinking of
the Minneapolis & St. Louis, which became part of the C&NW in 1960.
--
Jon Roma
Computing and Communications Services Office,
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Internet: ro...@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!roma
COIFMAN
still spot a number of CGW and even a few M&StL cars. As these
railroads were absorbed into C&NW, there were some numbering conflicts.
So insted of going through the pain of renumbering all of the
conflicting cars, as they were repainted, they got the C&NW logo, but
kept their old number and former rail road's initials.
_ ----------- ------------- ----------- _ -------------/^^^^^^^^\----
/^____________||_____________||____________^\|[] ==== ==== ___ ___ == |
'o-o ------ o-o o-o ----- o-o o-o ------ o-o o-o ------------------- o-o
Way of the Zephyrs zep...@cory.berkeley.edu Benn Coifman
zep...@robotics.berkeley.edu
David L. Boone
writes:
> The CGW was merged into the C&NW on July 1, 1968. You may be thinking of
> the Minneapolis & St. Louis, which became part of the C&NW in 1960.
> --
> Jon Roma
> Computing and Communications Services Office,
> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
> Internet: ro...@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!roma
Thank you for making the correction; and, yes, I was thinking of the M&StL.
This occurred to me later that day -- after I'd left work, naturally. Guess
my mind was numbed by my frantic last-minute Christmas shopping. :)
It was also pointed out to me that absorption of the M&StL and the CGW into
the C&NW would be more appropriately characterized as purchases than mergers.
The work forces were merged, but the properties were purchased. Sound right?
Dan Meyer
>
> If you look at the numbers and owners initials on rail cars, you can
>still spot a number of CGW and even a few M&StL cars. As these
>railroads were absorbed into C&NW, there were some numbering conflicts.
>So insted of going through the pain of renumbering all of the
>conflicting cars, as they were repainted, they got the C&NW logo, but
>kept their old number and former rail road's initials.
>
>
>
It was my understanding that the CGW & M&StL and other reporting marks
existed was beacause the railroads still existed as a paper railroad
or something.
Any thoughts?
Al Stangenberger
>zep...@cory.Berkeley.EDU (COIFMAN) writes:
>
>It was my understanding that the CGW & M&StL and other reporting marks
>existed was beacause the railroads still existed as a paper railroad
>or something.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
Central Pacific existed as a paper entity for years after Southern Pacific
took over all operations.
I remember seeing a picture of one of SP's cab forwards which had CP in fine
print below its road number.
--
Al Stangenberger Dept. of Forestry & Resource Mgt.
for...@violet.berkeley.edu 145 Mulford Hall - Univ. of Calif.
uucp: ucbvax!ucbviolet!forags Berkeley, CA 94720
BITNET: FORAGS AT UCBVIOLE (510) 642-4424 FAX: (510) 643-5438
Warren Brill
corporate owners are fascinating, to say the least. My next question would
be: Why are some of the components of a large merger left some independence,
whereas others lose their identity entirely?
An example of this would be the Burlington Northern merger of 1970, in which
Burlington "independently operated" subsidiary Colorado and Southern kept
its corporate identity until 1982, with units painted BN but with small
letters (whose size and location kept changing!) C&S on the cab. And then,
C&S subsidiary Fort Worth & Denver had ITS own lettering and numbering (which,
in the case of yard switchers, almost caused a couple of wrecks).
Any comments? You folks have such a store of information, it never ceases to
amaze me! Keep up the great work! and THANX!
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
o i---i_________________ o
o Warren T. Brill, a.k.a. *----|[|]|__RIO GRANDE_____|* o
Steven W. Salzman
>Thanx to all who responded to my question! The machinations of railroads'
>corporate owners are fascinating, to say the least. My next question would
>be: Why are some of the components of a large merger left some independence,
>whereas others lose their identity entirely?
>An example of this would be the Burlington Northern merger of 1970, in which
>Burlington "independently operated" subsidiary Colorado and Southern kept
>its corporate identity until 1982, with units painted BN but with small
>letters (whose size and location kept changing!) C&S on the cab. And then,
>C&S subsidiary Fort Worth & Denver had ITS own lettering and numbering (which,
>in the case of yard switchers, almost caused a couple of wrecks).
This is a tough one that I don't have the answer to, but I have a couple
of guesses. First, the equipment may have been purchased using equipment
trust certificates, which entitles the holder to the equipment in case of
default on the loan. The holder loans money to the railroad to purchase
the equipment, and is repaid, with interest, until the expiration of the
certificate. The certificate specifies the railroad and piece of equipment
that it is being issued for, thus, it is difficult to change this. So, I
would presume many roads just let it stand to say CGW, C&S, FW&D, WP and
others long after their roads disappeared. But that's just a guess.
Steven W. Salzman
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign