ATSF Doodlebugs?
E Stair2
perserved three of them. One was M190 (the articulated bug). Another was
the M160. I believe that M177 was the other one. Are any of them in
operational condition?
estair
Gregory K. Ramsey
Museum in Sacramento. The M.160 is at a museum in either Houston or
Dallas. I've read somewhere that it was recently started up. (it was
converted to diesel before it was retired by the AT&SF)
The M.177 is undergoing restoration by the Southern California Scenic
Rwy Association at Travel Town in Los Angeles, California. It is the
only surviving doodlebug still with its gasoline engine. We are trying
to restore the original Winton engine.
For more information on the M.177 or the SCSRA contact via Email any
of the below associates;
sc...@roundhouse.com
jimv...@aol.com
dbr...@nfesc.navy.mil
gr...@nfesc.navy.mil
or write to
SCSRA
P.O. Box 11216
Glendale, CA 91226
SCSRA Dues start at $25. and include a subscription to our quarterly
newsletter _The Headlight_.
Greg Ramsey
General Superintendent
Asst. Superintendent, Diesel Locomotives.
Southern California Scenic Rwy Association.
--
Greg Ramsey gr...@ncel.navy.mil
Naval Facilities Engineering Service Center
Pollution Prevention Division, Code ESC421
Port Hueneme, CA 93043-4328 805/982-9720
Evan Werkema
>In article <3k09o3$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, E Stair2 <est...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Where is the Santa Fe storing there three Doodlebugs today. They
>>perserved three of them. One was M190 (the articulated bug). Another was
>>the M160. I believe that M177 was the other one. Are any of them in
>>operational condition?
>>
>The M.190 is stored non-operational at the California State Railroad
>Museum in Sacramento. The M.160 is at a museum in either Houston or
>Dallas. I've read somewhere that it was recently started up. (it was
>converted to diesel before it was retired by the AT&SF)
M-160 and M-190 both have 567's currently. M-160 is at Dallas, I think at
the Age-of-Steam exhibit. For a number of years, M-160 and M-190 were the
only pieces of RR equipment wearing the red and silver warbonnet.
>The M.177 is undergoing restoration by the Southern California Scenic
>Rwy Association at Travel Town in Los Angeles, California. It is the
>only surviving doodlebug still with its gasoline engine. We are trying
>to restore the original Winton engine.
Good luck to you. It'd be nice to see one of those old gals running in
the "gull wing" scheme.
--
,_,,___......____...____..------ ______________ _--____________--_
_I ```` I[|]I I SANTA FE~~~~~~~~~, I @ I I I
~/---~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~\---'_I 2903 I IATSF I\/I I
/~o==o-( )-( )-( )-( )~~o==o~~~~~~o=o=o=o~~=====~~o=o=o=o~~~o==o~~~~~~~~o==o~
--Evan Werkem...@po.cwru.edu--"Ship and Travel Santa Fe...All the Way!"--
Tobias Benjamin Koehler
: Where is the Santa Fe storing there three Doodlebugs today. They
: perserved three of them. One was M190 (the articulated bug). Another was
: the M160. I believe that M177 was the other one. Are any of them in
: operational condition?
Are these the gas-electric railcars such as the one that will
come in 1995 as H0 model? I have seen a photo of that model in
eisenbahn magazin 3/95: black with a red/yellow front (3 front
windows), 4 axles, 3 exhaust stacks on the roof behind the cab,
half of the car is luggage/post compartment, the other half
passenger, might be unidirectional (the other side is not red,
so possibly has no cab), above the windows is a SANTAFE
inscription. When were these picturesque beasts built and how
long have they been in service?
toby
--
tobias benjamin köhler ,-/o"O`--.._ _/(_
_,-o'.|o 0 'O o O`o--'. e\
s_...@ira.uka.de (`o-..___..--''o:,-' )o /._" O "o 0 o : ._>
``--o___o..o.'' :'.O\_ ```--.\o .' `--
<<la propriété, `-`.,) \`.o`._
c'est le vol>> - p j proudhon pic: felix lee `-`-.,)
Evan Werkema
>E Stair2 (est...@aol.com) wrote:
>: Where is the Santa Fe storing there three Doodlebugs today. They
>: perserved three of them. One was M190 (the articulated bug). Another was
>: the M160. I believe that M177 was the other one. Are any of them in
>: operational condition?
>Are these the gas-electric railcars such as the one that will
>come in 1995 as H0 model? I have seen a photo of that model in
>eisenbahn magazin 3/95: black with a red/yellow front (3 front
>windows), 4 axles, 3 exhaust stacks on the roof behind the cab,
>half of the car is luggage/post compartment, the other half
>passenger, might be unidirectional (the other side is not red,
>so possibly has no cab), above the windows is a SANTAFE
>inscription.
I hadn't heard about a model, but that certainly sounds right. If it's in
plastic, I want one! (He says as he remembers the used Hallmark Models
"M-160" he bought that's been awaiting paint for about 10 years now...*sigh*)
>When were these picturesque beasts built and how
>long have they been in service?
Santa Fe's "doodlebugs," also called gas cars, motor cars, or simply
"motors" (hence the "M" in the number, as in M.160, M.177, etc.) were, as
you said, self contained railcars. Most large US railroads used these types
of cars in the early to middle part of this century for service on
branchlines or for local mail and passenger service, as they were cheaper to
operate than a steam train. The cars generally had, front to back, a
control cab, engine, baggage, occasionally mail, and usually passenger
sections, all on one 75'-80' frame. Most were single-ended, though Santa Fe
set up a few of theirs for "back-up" service (which merely involved adding a
brighter headlight on the back end and painting some extra stripes...
the engineer still had to control the car from the other end). Some cars
only had baggage and mail sections, and would haul separate trailers,
combines, or coaches to handle the passenger traffic.
The car you see advertised is probably an EMC Model 148 car, built ca.
1929. These were by far the most common type of doodlebug on the Santa Fe.
Originally built to run on gasoline (or a cheap fascimile called
"distillate"), Santa Fe re-engined most of them in the 1940's to burn
diesel. Some examples lasted into the 1960's. In fact, Santa Fe M.115 was
to have taken part in EMD's 50th anniversary celebrations in 1965(?) The
car was about to be retired from service, but they took it in and gussied it
up with fresh paint for the occasion. Unfortunately, when the EMD officials
stepped onboard, they discovered the Caterpillar diesel in the engineroom
and quickly rescinded the car's invitation. It then went to scrap. :-(
There were other builders and owners of doodlebugs as well. The McKean
(sp?) windsplitter cars were some of the first, dating from the 190_'s (UP
was an especially avid customer). EMC (Electromotive Corporation,
predecessor to EMD), J. G. Brill Co., General Electric, and Hall-Scott also
built cars in the early part of this century. In some ways, motorcars acted
as stepping-stones between steam and diesel for the railroads, as in many
cases they were the first internal combustion power of any kind on the
railroad. I think the last new motorcars were built about the time EMC
started turning out the diesel-powered Zephyrs in 1934. A goodly helping of
motorcar lineage is plainly evident in the Zephyrs...in fact CB&Q 9908,
built 1939, is essentially a motorcar with Zephyr styling and a diesel
engine. This unit is now preserved at the museum in St. Louis.
I don't know of any motorcars still in use in passenger service. Some,
however, survive as track inspection cars. UP used to have a car like this,
and Sperry Rail Services has a fleet of ex-motorcars (and close copies) set
up for their ultrasonic rail defect detection service. A few cars are
preserved here and there, like the three Santa Fe cars. I believe IRM has
at least one, too.
Fredric W. Dabney
: Are these the gas-electric railcars such as the one that will
: come in 1995 as H0 model? I have seen a photo of that model in
: eisenbahn magazin 3/95: black with a red/yellow front (3 front
: windows), 4 axles, 3 exhaust stacks on the roof behind the cab,
: half of the car is luggage/post compartment, the other half
: passenger, might be unidirectional (the other side is not red,
: so possibly has no cab), above the windows is a SANTAFE
: inscription. When were these picturesque beasts built and how
: long have they been in service?
These cars date to the 1930's for the most part, and were designed to
replace full crew consist passenger routes on local runs from major
cities to no where in particular. The nickname "doodlebug" was applied
early to them.
The recently announced Bachmann model is of such a car. Many roads had
them, particularly the Santa Fe. But they could be found in almost any
part of the US, as well as Mexico and Canada in various incarnations.
They used an internal combustion engine, sometimes Gasoline, sometimes
other fuels. They were connected to the (usually single) power truck via
an electric transmission. Very early units had purely mechanical
transmissions, however.
Most were unidirectional, although most could be run in reverse if
needed. But, since they date to steam era, the assumption was that there
was a place it could be turned at the end of the run. A turntable, a
"wye" or a loop track.
Books could be written about them, and at least one has been on the
Santa Fe's cars.
These beasts are, in many ways the predecessor of the modern Diesel
Electric locomotive. HOwever, most of them had barely enough power to
pull themselves, although there were some that were fitted with special
lightweight trailer cars, and the Santa Fe had one 900 hp monster that
could be used for freight and passenger service- in fact the basic unit
was articulated with a power car and a baggage car, and had to use a
trailer if they wanted to carry people. But since the premise was to
carry passengers that didn't exist in great number, the limited capacity
was seldom a problem.
Keep in mind that in the US, there was little interest in running trains
just to make jobs or serve the public interest, so if a route didn't have
enough traffic the first instinct was to drop the service. However,
charters and/or local laws frequently required the company to maintain a
minimum service or risk other penalties. Hence a car that required only
a driver, a brakeman and a conductor was a lot cheaper to operate than a
full train that might require a seven person crew.
The "RDC" which has been mentioned here was a latter-day equivalent of
the old doodlebug.
Some of the old 'bugs may still be in service on tourist lines but their
life on most revenue operations ended in the sixties, for the most part.
Fred D.
Garth G. Groff
These beasties date from the late 1920s or so. They were
used to replace more expensive-to-operate steam trains on
routes where there wasn't much business (usually branch
lines). Most were single ended and had to be turned at
the end of their runs. As far as I know, there are only
two in regular service in the United States. They run on
the California Western Railroad (in California, of course).
They mostly carry tourists through the redwood forests now,
but they also carry regular passengers to cabins in the
forest where there are no roads (plus deliver groceries to
those folks).
The car you saw in the picture is of a type built by the
Electro Motive Corporation (later EMD, one of the major
builders of U.S. locomotives and a division of General
Motors). It was probably powered by a Winton gasoline
engine when built. Most of these were later repowered by
diesel engines. They were in common use on many lines
(especially in the Mid-west) until the 1950s.
~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
gg...@poe.acc.virginia.EDU Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
Evan Werkema
>These cars date to the 1930's for the most part, and were designed to
>replace full crew consist passenger routes on local runs from major
>cities to no where in particular. The nickname "doodlebug" was applied
>early to them.
>They used an internal combustion engine, sometimes Gasoline, sometimes
>other fuels. They were connected to the (usually single) power truck via
>an electric transmission. Very early units had purely mechanical
>transmissions, however.
McKeens, in particular, were usually gas-mechanical. According to some
books I've read, the engine was mounted directly on the power truck, and
swivelled with the truck. This, of course, subjected the engine to all
manner of pounding and abuse. Santa Fe got rid of their McKeens fairly
early, and even UP repowered some of theirs into gas-electrics.
>Books could be written about them, and at least one has been on the
>Santa Fe's cars.
_The Doodlebugs_, by John McCall, published ca.1977 and has not been
available for a number of years.
Another book, giving all-time rosters for most railroads, is Edmund
Keilty's _Doodlebug Country_.
>These beasts are, in many ways the predecessor of the modern Diesel
>Electric locomotive. HOwever, most of them had barely enough power to
>pull themselves, although there were some that were fitted with special
>lightweight trailer cars, and the Santa Fe had one 900 hp monster that
>could be used for freight and passenger service- in fact the basic unit
>was articulated with a power car and a baggage car, and had to use a
>trailer if they wanted to carry people. But since the premise was to
>carry passengers that didn't exist in great number, the limited capacity
>was seldom a problem.
Some roads used their doodlebugs in regular mixed train service. I
seem to recall seeing a picture of a GN EMC car with about 10 cars in tow.
Santa Fe's Model 148 cars had about 400 hp, and M.118 at least saw some
light mixed train duty in its waining years. One car (M.122?) was even used
as a switcher for a few years in the joint Frisco-ATSF yard in Paris, TX.
The doodlebug replaced a GE 44-tonner, and was said to be superior in a
number of ways (by this time, the car had a 400 hp Caterpillar diesel in the
engineroom. Interestingly, the 44-ton was probably also Cat-powered, with
two 200 hp engines). The only drawback was that the motorcar was at least
twice as long as the 44-ton, and backup visibility can't have been very good.
Power went up as the years went on. Santa Fe's 1931 Brill M.160-class
cars were rated at 535 hp. I believe Rock Island bought a couple of 800
hp cars that mounted two 400 hp engines. Santa Fe's single engine, 900-hp,
articulated M.190 (EMC 1932) a was interesting in another way too. Though
it didn't have a whole lot of horsepower comparatively, its two power trucks
gave it greater starting tractive effort than Santa Fe's 3460-class
4-6-4's!
>Some of the old 'bugs may still be in service on tourist lines but their
>life on most revenue operations ended in the sixties, for the most part.
Looking at the Preserved Diesels lists, I find the following preserved
motorcars:
ATSF M.160 (1931 Brill): Age of Steam exhibit, fairgrounds, Dallas, TX
ATSF M.177 (1931 EMC): Traveltown, Los Angeles, CA
ATSF M.190 (1932 EMC): CSRM's backlot, Sacramento, CA
B&M 1180 (1926 EMC): Museum of Transport, St. Louis, MO
CB&Q ???? (???? EMC, converted to a trailer): S. of Union Station, Denver,
CO (last time I was there anyway) owned by Colorado RR Museum.
CGW M-1000 (1929 EMC): Kettle Morian Ry., North Lake, WI (is this still
operating?)
CN 15824 (1926 CN): Canadian Ry. Museum, Montreal, Quebec.
EBT M-1 (Brill 1926): East Broad Top, Orbisonia, PA
GN 2313 (EMC 1925): Mid Continent Ry. Museum, North Freedom, WI
PL&W 51 (Mack 1922 AB railbus): Lehigh Valley Chapter NRHS, Allentown, PA
PRR 4662 (Brill 1929): Wilmington & Western, Wilmington, DE
PRR 4666 (Brill 1930): Black River & Western, Ringoes, NJ
PRR 4668 (Brill 1930): Illinois Ry Museum, Union, IL
Sperry 120 (Brill 1929 Model 55): Trolley Museum of New York, Kingston, NY
Sperry X8015 (Brill 1930): Connecticut Valley Ry. Museum, Essex, CT
This doesn't include RDC's. I'm sure this list is way out of date, and
there are probably a number of omissions. Feel free to correct at will.
Edmar Wienskoski Jr
>E Stair2 (est...@aol.com) wrote:
>: Where is the Santa Fe storing there three Doodlebugs today. They
>: perserved three of them. One was M190 (the articulated bug). Another was
>: the M160. I believe that M177 was the other one. Are any of them in
>: operational condition?
The M-160 is in "The age of Steam Railroad Museum" Dallas, Texas.
P.O. Box 26369, Fair Park Station, Dallas, Texas 75226-0369.
According to the museum handout:
"...the M-160 was best known in the 1950's and early 60's as the Pecos
Valley Chief, operating between Clovis and Carlsbad, New Mexico."
M-160 was donated by Santa Fe Railway in january, 1969.
---Edmar Wienskoski
wie...@cs.rice.edu
Fredric W. Dabney
: In article <3klnhl$m...@dns1.NMSU.Edu> fda...@nmsu.edu (Fredric W. Dabney) writes:
: >They used an internal combustion engine, sometimes Gasoline, sometimes
: >other fuels. They were connected to the (usually single) power truck via
: >an electric transmission. Very early units had purely mechanical
: >transmissions, however.
: McKeens, in particular, were usually gas-mechanical. According to some
: books I've read, the engine was mounted directly on the power truck, and
: swivelled with the truck. This, of course, subjected the engine to all
: manner of pounding and abuse. Santa Fe got rid of their McKeens fairly
: early, and even UP repowered some of theirs into gas-electrics.
Not only were they mounted on the truck, but reversing was done with a
lever that moved the camshaft (!) to reverse the direction the engine
rotated. (!!!!!)
So, here we have a prototype for the typical model that uses a reversable
motor to control direction...
One reason the UP was so taken with the McKeen car was that the plant was
on UP property, and I have read that the UP had an interest in the
operation, or at least they had common ownership.
Fred D.
Tobias Benjamin Koehler
: >Are these the gas-electric railcars such as the one that will
: >come in 1995 as H0 model? I have seen a photo of that model in
: >eisenbahn magazin 3/95: black with a red/yellow front (3 front
: >windows), 4 axles, 3 exhaust stacks on the roof behind the cab,
: >half of the car is luggage/post compartment, the other half
: >passenger, might be unidirectional (the other side is not red,
: >so possibly has no cab), above the windows is a SANTAFE
: >inscription.
: I hadn't heard about a model, but that certainly sounds right. If it's in
: plastic, I want one! (He says as he remembers the used Hallmark Models
: "M-160" he bought that's been awaiting paint for about 10 years now...*sigh*)
It's Bachmann and looks like plastic. A single, non-articulated
unit, 4 axles, number could be "M.117" but the photo is not very
sharp.
: The car you see advertised is probably an EMC Model 148 car, built ca.
: 1929. These were by far the most common type of doodlebug on the Santa Fe.
: Originally built to run on gasoline (or a cheap fascimile called
: "distillate"), Santa Fe re-engined most of them in the 1940's to burn
: diesel. Some examples lasted into the 1960's. In fact, Santa Fe M.115 was
: to have taken part in EMD's 50th anniversary celebrations in 1965(?) The
: car was about to be retired from service, but they took it in and gussied it
: up with fresh paint for the occasion. Unfortunately, when the EMD officials
: stepped onboard, they discovered the Caterpillar diesel in the engineroom
: and quickly rescinded the car's invitation. It then went to scrap. :-(
You know how many of them were built?
: I don't know of any motorcars still in use in passenger service. Some,
: however, survive as track inspection cars. UP used to have a car like this,
: and Sperry Rail Services has a fleet of ex-motorcars (and close copies) set
: up for their ultrasonic rail defect detection service. A few cars are
: preserved here and there, like the three Santa Fe cars. I believe IRM has
: at least one, too.
Couldn't they be used for excursions today?
Evan Werkema
>Evan Werkema (el...@po.CWRU.edu) wrote:
>: I hadn't heard about a model, but that certainly sounds right. If it's in
>: plastic, I want one! (He says as he remembers the used Hallmark Models
>: "M-160" he bought that's been awaiting paint for about 10 years now...*sigh*)
>It's Bachmann and looks like plastic. A single, non-articulated
>unit, 4 axles, number could be "M.117" but the photo is not very
>sharp.
Sounds about right. Neat...I'll have to save up for one.
>: The car you see advertised is probably an EMC Model 148 car, built ca.
>: 1929. These were by far the most common type of doodlebug on the Santa Fe.
>: Originally built to run on gasoline (or a cheap fascimile called
>: "distillate"), Santa Fe re-engined most of them in the 1940's to burn
>: diesel. Some examples lasted into the 1960's. In fact, Santa Fe M.115 was
>: to have taken part in EMD's 50th anniversary celebrations in 1965(?) The
>: car was about to be retired from service, but they took it in and gussied it
>: up with fresh paint for the occasion. Unfortunately, when the EMD officials
>: stepped onboard, they discovered the Caterpillar diesel in the engineroom
>: and quickly rescinded the car's invitation. It then went to scrap. :-(
>You know how many of them were built?
I don't know how many Model 148's total were built. On Santa Fe...phooey,
not having the book here, I'd hate to venture a guess. They had
approximately M.115-M.135, M.150-152, and M.175-M.187, so about 35 cars
total. CB&Q had some, and I'm pretty sure MP had some, but I'm drawing on
faulty memory here. EMC was one of the more prolific builders, let me just
put it that way.
>: I don't know of any motorcars still in use in passenger service. Some,
>: however, survive as track inspection cars. UP used to have a car like this,
>: and Sperry Rail Services has a fleet of ex-motorcars (and close copies) set
>: up for their ultrasonic rail defect detection service. A few cars are
>: preserved here and there, like the three Santa Fe cars. I believe IRM has
>: at least one, too.
>Couldn't they be used for excursions today?
That's what the folks at Travel Town are attempting to do with M.177, and
I wish them luck. M.160 might not be too hard a rebuild...it has a standard
567 in the engineroom, and I believe the last car it hauled on the "Pecos
Valley Chief" went with it to Dallas (a round-end obs of all things). I
think there's at least one excursion line (New Hope & Ivyland???) that uses
a restored Mack Railbus. So yes, if they could restore them to operating
condition, they could be used in excursions. And, true to form, I'll bet
they'd be cheaper to operate than a steam train (they wouldn't draw as large
a crowd, but heck, there are excursion operations that make money pulling
people behind GE 45-tons!)
Steven F Kraus
a design and sales firm. They had the cars built by Pullman, AMF and St.
Louis Car, got engines from Winton and electicals from GE.
Evan Werkema
Yes, for many years EMC was just a set of offices on Euclid Ave. in
Cleveland that ordered the component pieces and commissioned someone to
assemble it all. Nevertheless, when you have to say who built a given car,
it's a lot easier to say "EMC Model 148 car" than "St. Louis Car body with a
Winton Model 148 distillate engine with GE generator and traction equipment
brought together at St. Louis by EMC." I suppose the argument could be made
that DL&W 426 and 427, EMC's first switchers, were actually GE's because
they were assembled at Erie.
--
,_,,__......_____...______------ ______________ _--____________--_
_I ```` I[|]I I SANTA FE~~~~~~~~, I @ I I I
~/---~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~\---'-I 2903 I IATSF I\/I I
/~o==o~( )-( )-( )-( )~~o==o~~~~~~o=o=o=o~~====~~o=o=o=o~~~o==o~~~~~~~~o==o~~
Mike Travis U.S. Forest Service
at CSRM in Sacramento. Many years ago (say ~25) I got to ride this
car at Rio Vista Junction.
mt
:wq
Evan Werkema (el...@po.CWRU.edu) wrote: