What keeps an articulated loco together?
Edgar_Circenis
to the locomotive body, or to each other with some sort of coupler? I've
been looking through the library here, but haven't found any books that
give any info on this topic.
Also, for modeling purposes, how are they connected, and are both sets
of drivers powered?
Edgar
Donald Nelson~
For an articulated STEAM locomotive, a pivot pin connects the front and rear
engine frames under the boiler. Other things run from the boiler down
to this frame (such as sand pipes, steam lines, etc) but serve no
purpose in keeping the units connected.
--
ALL OPINIONS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN AND NOT NECESSARILY THOSE OF INTEL CORP.
DON NELSON , Intel
jaley
>On an articulated locomotive, are the separate driver sections connected
>to the locomotive body, or to each other with some sort of coupler?
Actually, on many articulated locomotives (in the USA, at least), the
frame is hinged. I looked under the cab-forward (no, no, not the automobile,
the SP locomotive) at the California State RR Museum and found that the frame
for the front half of the locomotive is wishbone-shaped, with a LARGE
cylindrical "pin" attaching it to the rear frame. The boiler is rigid, and
slides on a large bearing plate that is attached to the rear frame.
I think that if you look VERY closely at Wes Barris' .sig, you can see
the pin ;-).
>Also, for modeling purposes, how are they connected, and are both sets
>of drivers powered?
Both sets of drivers have their own cylinders and are fully powered.
Close examination of photographs (or of the prototype) will reveal large pipes
leading to the "second" set of cylinders (those on the rear engine for most
articulateds; those on the front engine for cab-forwards).
You say "for modeling purposes"; are you planning to build one from
scratch??
--
Jeff Aley ja...@pcocd2.intel.com My opinions, my facts,
my everything.
Fredric W. Dabney
: On an articulated locomotive, are the separate driver sections connected
Prototype: In a conventional articulated as used in the US, the rear
engine (the proper term for the frame, cylinders, wheels, etc) is attached
to the boiler as any other engine. In fact, think of it as a normal steam
engine with a LOT of boiler overhang at the front. The front engine is
connected to the rear engine with a hinged joint between the frames.
Steam pipes feeding the front cylinders and exhaust are arranged with
swivel joints such that the engine can slide side to side with the pipes
following the motion. The weight of the front of the boiler is carried by
a slide or roller surface which permits the engine to move from side to
side.
Don't forget that the real thing doesn't have the sort of curve- lateral
or vertical- that model railroads have. Photos of articulateds on sharp
curves always look like the boiler is going to go in a different direction
than the rest of the locomotive. Various model magazines have drawings of
prototype steam engines from time to time, and once in a while the
articulateds are shown. In addition, the Model Railroader 'Cyclopedia,
volume 1- Steam Locomotives has several drawings and photos showing in
some detail how it works.
Notable exception: The PRR had a large group of engines that looked like
articulated locomotives but wern't. They are properly called "Duplex" or
divided drive engines, which had two sets of cylinders and drivers, but
the frame was rigid. The purpose was to reduce the stress on the moving
parts without incurring weight penalties which would restrict the speed of
the engines. (heavy side rods were hard to balance for high speed running)
The best known in the model world is the Penn Line, now Bowser T-1
4-4-4-4, which oddly enough is modeled as an articulated- both engines
swivel- to permit the model to take the curves typical of a layout of the
time the model was designed. (mid 50's) The Q-1 and Q-2, and the S-1 are
other such designs.
Model: Much as the prototype, for the most part. Drive may be with a
transfer case from the motor to the rear engine, and a gear box on each
engine with a universal between engines or a drive line to each engine with
a transfer case between the drive line and each engine's gear box. In some
extreme cases, where space prevents, the front engine may be unpowered,
but that is rare, and usually not needed.
Weight transfer in standard articulated model drives is usually a spring
loaded pin or wheel that bears on a plate atop the front engine.
In larger engines a separate motor/ gear case for each engine has also
been used. That was once an option on the Penn Line T-1, and was neat
because the drivers could "get out of synch" with each other- visualy
attractive, and prototypical during starting.
In one exception to this, Rivarossi treated the whole thing as one big
diesel drive. The drive shaft extends forward from the motor with two
transfer boxes which extend straight down to the gear case in the engine,
and the boiler is carried by two universal swivel joints, one about midway
in each engine. This permits both engines to swing about, and does permit
a very large engine to circumnavigate absurdly sharp curves while
minimizing boiler overhang at the front. It also looks monumentaly silly
doing so.
In other words, a model articulated is in many ways, a simplified version
of the prototype, ignoring for the moment that few steam engines were
powered by an electric motor hidden in the firebox.
However, "articulated" can mean many things. Shays, Heislers, Climaxes,
Fairlies, Beyer Garrats and other designs, some of them truly odd, also
are articulated, and each has a characteristic design. There is a book on
the subject, by Robert LeMassena, called "Articulated Locomotives of North
America". Probably out of print. I bought mine used (and autographed!)
in a hobby shop some years ago.
More than you probably wanted to know.
Policies and opinions held by the employer of the undersigned
are not reflected in the views of the undersigned. Or anyone
else in their right mind, for that matter.
Fred Dabney/ KRWG Radio/ New Mexico State University (fda...@nmsu.edu)
"Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained
by stupidity" (unknown)
Michael Rubin
>On an articulated locomotive, are the separate driver sections connected
>to the locomotive body, or to each other with some sort of coupler? I've
>been looking through the library here, but haven't found any books that
>give any info on this topic.
I just saw the huge 2-8-8-2 (or is it 4-8-8-4) at the Sacramento RR
Museum. This is obviously a FAQ because the interpreter sitting there
has a little wooden model showing how the articulation works!
This loco is a descendant of the Mallet which probably worked the same.
The front wheels and entire boiler are on the main locomotive frame.
The rear wheels (both drivers and trailing bogie) and cylinders are on
their own frame, with a whopping big hinge under the middle of the
boiler connecting it to the main frame. There are flexible pipes to
get steam to the rear cylinders, which are near the hinge. There also
seems to be a sliding arrangement to support the back of the boiler on
the rear frame which of course is waving side-to-side. I don't know
whether the coupler is attached to the main frame or the rear-wheels
frame.
I was very tired when I saw it and may have just described the entire
thing backwards.
There were other articulation schemes such as the Double Fairlie which
is basically two independent tank engines back-to-back with a cab
inbetween. (British folks please correct me here...)
--
--Mike Rubin <mi...@panix.com>
Watch out for the Smokeys on that information highway!
Christopher A. Lee
>to the locomotive body, or to each other with some sort of coupler? I've
>been looking through the library here, but haven't found any books that
>give any info on this topic.
It depends on the articulation system.
A Kitson or Meyer Kitson, or a Mason, or a Fairlie, or a Garratt, have
separate trucks like a passennger car.
A Mallet has the rear truck rigid with the engine, and the front truck
pulling the rear truck. The weight of the front of the engine is carried
on rubbing plates on the front truck.
>Also, for modeling purposes, how are they connected, and are both sets
>of drivers powered?
It varies. Some model Mallets I've seen have two power trucks. Others
have the rear truck rigid and a single motor driving both trucks (NWSL
make an arrangement they call the hi-lo gearboxes for this).
>Edgar
Chris
Fredric W. Dabney
: I just saw the huge 2-8-8-2 (or is it 4-8-8-4) at the Sacramento RR
: Museum. This is obviously a FAQ because the interpreter sitting there
: has a little wooden model showing how the articulation works!
: This loco is a descendant of the Mallet which probably worked the same.
: The front wheels and entire boiler are on the main locomotive frame.
: The rear wheels (both drivers and trailing bogie) and cylinders are on
: their own frame, with a whopping big hinge under the middle of the
: boiler connecting it to the main frame.
etc...
: I was very tired when I saw it and may have just described the entire
: thing backwards.
No, you didn't. The engine got it backwards. There was a group of Mallet
articulateds on the Southern Pacific which put the cab at the front and
the tender following the boiler. "Cab Forwards" was the usual name,
although SP crews usually called them "Back-up Malleys". The design was
intended to provide better breathing for the engine crew in the many
tunnels and snow sheds in the SP's mountain country by putting them in
front of the ehaust smoke and steam. Most were of the 4-8-8-2 persuasion,
although there were a few smaller versions. Strictly speaking they were
2-8-8-4's since the 4 wheel truck was under the fire box, but the other
way seemed to make sense, particularly when looking at one. The SP did in
fact have one class that had the cab in back- the AC-9.
Fred D. /DJ/ NMSU. Malice/ Stupidity/ Not responsible.
(Short form .sig)
Evan L. Werkema
In a previous article, dne...@sedona.intel.com (Donald Nelson~) says:
>In article <32onqs$b...@tadpole.fc.hp.com>, e...@fc.hp.com (Edgar_Circenis) writes:
>> On an articulated locomotive, are the separate driver sections connected
>> to the locomotive body, or to each other with some sort of coupler? I've
>> been looking through the library here, but haven't found any books that
>> give any info on this topic.
>
>engine frames under the boiler. Other things run from the boiler down
>to this frame (such as sand pipes, steam lines, etc) but serve no
>purpose in keeping the units connected.
A variation on this theme were Santa Fe's 2-6-6-2 compound Mallets, some
of which came with articulated _boilers_ that were connected directly to
the front engine and pivoted with it. It was an attempt by Santa Fe put
weight on the front engine and reduce its tendency to slip when starting. It
didn't work, and the accordion-pleat connection was leaky, and the compound
engines were maintenance intensive. After a few more frustrating attempts,
Santa Fe gave up altogether on new articulateds around 1920. UP and SP
finally fixed the stability problem...somehow. I think it had to do with
allowing the front engine to move vertically as well as horizontally.
--
o_II_-__-__-----____________ ---------------- /====================\
I_________I__I I 870 I I I I I I I I oooooo II
/-o--0-0-0-0~~~~~o=o~==~o=o~~~o==o~~~~~~o==o~~~o=o=o~~~~~~~~~~o=o=o~~
--Evan Werkem...@po.cwru.edu---"Ship and Travel Santa Fe...All the Way!"--
Paul D. Noble
Not all large rod-driven (as opposed to geared, such as Shay or Heisler) locomotives
are Mallets.
Technically, a Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive that uses the steam
twice. The high pressure steam is routed from the boiler to the rear "engine"
or cylinders. From there the exhaust steam from the rear cylinders are routed
to the front cylinders. Because the exhaust steam is at a lower pressure than
that in the boiler, a Mallet has larger front cylinders than the rear.
The alternative is a "simple" articulated engine. In this case, steam is routed
from the boiler to both the front and rear engines at the same pressure. It is not
reused. The front and rear cylinders on a simple articulated are the same size,
since they both operate at the same pressure.
I believe the UP Big Boy was a simple articulated. The N & W class A (1218) is
(I think) a Mallet. The N&W Y6b was definitely a Mallet; those front cylinders
were HUGE.
Paul Noble | New unit of measure:
NASA Lewis Research Center, |
Cleveland, Ohio | 1 milliHelen = the amount of beauty
e-mail: xxn...@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov | necessary to launch 1 ship.
Bill Muller
name of the French engineer who devised the system of placing
two sets of drivers on a locomotive and allowing them to
pivot. It has nothing to do with the steam pressure in the
cylinders.
Bill Muller
--
VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA VA
=============================================================================
TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN TN
Thomas C. Madden
>
>I just saw the huge 2-8-8-2 (or is it 4-8-8-4) at the Sacramento RR
>Museum. This is obviously a FAQ because the interpreter sitting there
>has a little wooden model showing how the articulation works!
>This loco is a descendant of the Mallet which probably worked the same.
>
That would be a little wooden Mallet, right?
(Sorry, spending too much time over on alt.folklore.urban!)
Tom "sometimes I just can't contain myself" Madden
--
===============================================================
| Tom Madden | "Where have you been? |
| Boulder, CO | Your horse came home hours ago." |
| tma...@netcom.com | Lord Godiva |
===============================================================
Fredric W. Dabney
: Not all large rod-driven (as opposed to geared, such as Shay or Heisler) locomotives
: are Mallets.
: Technically, a Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive that uses the steam
: twice. The high pressure steam is routed from the boiler to the rear "engine"
: or cylinders. From there the exhaust steam from the rear cylinders are routed
: to the front cylinders. Because the exhaust steam is at a lower pressure than
: that in the boiler, a Mallet has larger front cylinders than the rear.
: The alternative is a "simple" articulated engine. In this case, steam is routed
: from the boiler to both the front and rear engines at the same pressure. It is not
: reused. The front and rear cylinders on a simple articulated are the same size,
: since they both operate at the same pressure.
: I believe the UP Big Boy was a simple articulated. The N & W class A (1218) is
: (I think) a Mallet. The N&W Y6b was definitely a Mallet; those front cylinders
: were HUGE.
This is one of those "You're right, but..." matters.
I don't remember which way the original design by Anatole Mallet went,
simple or compound. I think I remember reading something about the irony
of all Mallet articulateds being (by definition) compound because Mallet
himself was a "simple" advocate. I could get out my book that I mentioned
earlier, but why confuse the issue with fact.
In any event, popular usage was to call all articulateds, simple, compound
or both Mallet, to distinguish them from the various other articulated
designs extant, even though few were used in North America- Canada and
Mexico included. And the definition was Boiler attached to Engine under
Firebox, and other engine attached to it by a swivel joint/drawbar
arrangement between the engines. This meant, that aside from the SP's Cab
Forward designs, the front engine swiveled.
I said "both" above. Many more modern Mallets were designed with the
proper valving in the cab to permit the fireman or engineer to set the
loco up to start moving in simple expansion, hence greater tractive effort
at the expense of lesser economy, then as the loco gained speed switch
over to compound expansion for greater economy. What is meant by
compound, is the steam for the rear cylinders came from the boiler, and
the exhaust steam from them went to the lower pressure front cylinders.
I sure hope the guy who started this hasn't died of infoglut!
K.D.Ba...@lut.ac.uk
>There were other articulation schemes such as the Double Fairlie which
>is basically two independent tank engines back-to-back with a cab
>inbetween. (British folks please correct me here...)
>--
One boiler, two fireboxes and two chimneys, all sitting
on two powered bogies (engines). Fascinating to watch.
Keith.
Tim Rumph
[much stuff deleted]
: I said "both" above. Many more modern Mallets were designed with the
: proper valving in the cab to permit the fireman or engineer to set the
: loco up to start moving in simple expansion, hence greater tractive effort
: at the expense of lesser economy, then as the loco gained speed switch
: over to compound expansion for greater economy. What is meant by
: compound, is the steam for the rear cylinders came from the boiler, and
: the exhaust steam from them went to the lower pressure front cylinders.
While not all articulated engines were compounds, so to were not all
compounds articulated. The first attempt I know of had two steam
cylinders on each side of the engine, both driving a single main rod, one
of which was high pressure, the other using exhaust steam from the first
at lower pressure. I believe this was done in an attempt to increase
efficiency, because the technology at the time would not allow higher
pressures in the sliding valve and cylinder joints. These were fairly
short lived.
The PRR duplex engines were mentioned elsewhere, and I believe these were
simple engines anyway.
Some railroads (D&RGW for one) used three cylinder, compound
engines. The two outside cylinders were in their normal position, and
exhausted into the center cylinder, which drove a crank on one of the
axils. There were generally two sets of valve gear on the left side of
the engine, one to control that side and the other for the center
cylinder. These engines had a 120 degree angle between crank pins rather
than the usual 90 degrees.
--
Tim Rumph Concord, NC
tar...@cybernetics.net (PSE sent mail here, not to uncc.edu-ALL DONE!)
kd4ows@wb4kdf.#gas.nc.usa.na (non-hams: don't try to use this on the
Internet)
Carl Becker
[deletia]
:
: A Kitson or Meyer Kitson, or a Mason, or a Fairlie, or a Garratt, have
: separate trucks like a passennger car.
:
[more deletia]
Okay, I thought I knew a lot about trains, but my ignorance is showing.
Could someone explain the distinguishing features of Kitsons, Meyer
Kitsons, Masons, and Fairlies? (I do at least know what Garratts and
Mallets are :-). Thanks.
,---------------------------------------------------------------------,
| Carl Becker | "Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses |
| LMSC, Inc. | the hell out of your enemies." |
| Sunnyvale, CA | - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #76 |
`---------------------------------------------------------------------'
Robert Coe
>I just saw the huge 2-8-8-2 (or is it 4-8-8-4) at the Sacramento RR
>Museum. This is obviously a FAQ because the interpreter sitting there
>
>The front wheels and entire boiler are on the main locomotive frame.
>The rear wheels (both drivers and trailing bogie) and cylinders are on
>their own frame, with a whopping big hinge under the middle of the
>
>I was very tired when I saw it and may have just described the entire
>thing backwards.
On a coal-fired loco, you'd want the boiler mounted on the same frame as
the cab. Otherwise, the boiler would have to move relative to the firebox
or the firebox would have to move relative to the cab. Either of those
situations would be hard to design around. On oil-fired locos (including
cab-forward locos) it might not matter as much, since a design in which
the firebox is not rigidly attached to the cab is at least conceivable.
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe * 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 * 508-443-3265
Curtis Jamison
Fairlie himself was a truly fascinating character. Many of his ideas were
responsible for the narrow guage movement in the US. Of course, he only
advocated using NG if the motive power was a Fairlie.
It turns out, British folk don't have a monopoly on the Fairlie. While the
most famous installation was (is) the slate mines, the Denver & Rio Grande
experimented with one. Gen. Palmer was one of Fairlie's biggest NG disciples.
It turned out to be a dismal failure, as it could not build up enough heat
in the firebox due to soft coal. In fact, the roadmaster once estimated
that the Fairlie hauled 5% of the total freight and cost 25% of the running
budget. There was also a problem with drafts through the firebox. It ended
it's life as a helper engine on the steep side of La Veta Pass in southern
Colorado, and Palmer never carried through with his intention of ordering
more.
In addition to the Rio Grande Fairlie, I think there was one other in the
States, possibly in western PA, which more limited in use but a bit more
successful.
As long as we're talking articulateds, don't the Mason bogies count? I think
they delivered steam to the bogies through a ball and socket connection that
swiveled.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curt Jamison jam...@csl.ncsa.uiuc.edu
Community Systems Laboratory
National Center for Supercomputing Applications
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reunite Gondwonoland!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take full responsibility for opinions expressed in this posting.
Bill Bedford
In article <32p1r5$7...@chnews.intel.com>, Donald Nelson~ writes:
>
>
> In article <32onqs$b...@tadpole.fc.hp.com>, e...@fc.hp.com
(Edgar_Circenis) writes:
> > On an articulated locomotive, are the separate driver sections
connected
> > to the locomotive body, or to each other with some sort of
coupler? I've
> > been looking through the library here, but haven't found any books
that
> > give any info on this topic.
> >
> > Also, for modeling purposes, how are they connected, and are both
sets
> > of drivers powered?
> >
> > Edgar
>
> For an articulated STEAM locomotive, a pivot pin connects the front
and rear
> engine frames under the boiler. Other things run from the boiler
down
Only on Mallets and Single Fairleys. On Beyer Garrets, Double Fairleys
and Kitsons the were two
powered set of frames more like bogies on a diesel. Englebarths were
some think else again :-) and I would have to lookup how they worked,
but it was complcated.
Bill
Glenn Blauvelt
tar...@jabba.cybernetics.net (Tim Rumph) wrote:
> Fredric W. Dabney (fda...@nmsu.edu) wrote:
>
> [much stuff deleted]
>
[snip]
>
> Some railroads (D&RGW for one) used three cylinder, compound
> engines. The two outside cylinders were in their normal position, and
> exhausted into the center cylinder, which drove a crank on one of the
> axils. There were generally two sets of valve gear on the left side of
> the engine, one to control that side and the other for the center
> cylinder. These engines had a 120 degree angle between crank pins rather
> than the usual 90 degrees.
> --
> Tim Rumph Concord, NC
> tar...@cybernetics.net (PSE sent mail here, not to uncc.edu-ALL DONE!)
> kd4ows@wb4kdf.#gas.nc.usa.na (non-hams: don't try to use this on the
> Internet)
Could you perhaps indicate a class for these simple/compound locos? I'm
more familiar with the D&RGWs narrow gauge power than the standard gauge
stuff. I'm interested.
Glenn
--
Glenn Blauvelt gbla...@nrel.nrel.gov
SRRAP Macintosh Adminstrator Phone: 303-231-1031
National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) FAX: 303-231-7811
1617 Cole Blvd
Golden, CO 80401 USA "Carpe Noctem"
Wes Barris
|> Class A locos on the N&W were "simple" steamers. Mallet is the
|> name of the French engineer who devised the system of placing
|> two sets of drivers on a locomotive and allowing them to
|> pivot. It has nothing to do with the steam pressure in the
|> cylinders.
|> Bill Muller
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, but thanks for playing.
Whether or not an articulated locomotive is a Mattet has _everything_
to do with hi and low pressure cylinders. Anatole Mallet designed
an articulated locomotive with four cylinders (two hi and two low
pressure). The exhaust of the high (boiler) pressure cylinders was
fed into the low pressure cylinders.
In the early years of articulated steam locomotives in the U.S., most
(if not all) of them were compound or true Mallets. The more modern
articulated locomotive were often simple expansion engines and as a
result were not Mallets (even though they articulated).
All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
articulated == rectangle
square == mallet
--
o O O O O o o o o o o o o . . . . . . .
__________ ___ ___ __ _
/_______|--`--|_ _|--=-==---|_ _|--,_|__|_ |-+-------`____________,
| ||_| / - | / - \ | || ________ | |
|_|___/------------|----__---------|------|||__|__|__| |Southern Pacific Lines|
|_|____________/-------{__}---------------{__}_______|=|_________ ________|
/_(o)=(o) ( )( )( )( ) [__] ( )( )( )( ) [__]--(o) (o)(o)(o)-----(o)(o)(o)
===============================================================================
Wes Barris PH: (612) 626-8090
Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc. Email: w...@msc.edu
Bill Bedford
In article <3337uk$h...@uc.msc.edu>, Wes Barris writes:
>
> In article <1994Aug16.1...@leo.vsla.edu>, bmu...@leo.vsla.edu
(Bill Muller) writes:
> |> Class A locos on the N&W were "simple" steamers. Mallet is the
> |> name of the French engineer who devised the system of placing
> |> two sets of drivers on a locomotive and allowing them to
> |> pivot. It has nothing to do with the steam pressure in the
> |> cylinders.
> |> Bill Muller
>
> Bzzzzzt! Sorry, but thanks for playing.
>
> Whether or not an articulated locomotive is a Mattet has _everything_
> to do with hi and low pressure cylinders. Anatole Mallet designed
> an articulated locomotive with four cylinders (two hi and two low
Mmmmmmm I this country it was found that Superheating was at least as
efficent as Compounding and a lot cheaper. So I presume useage overtook
the original definition.
Insidentally I have an article about a PRR loco in a c1920 edition of the
Locomotive Magazine whiich is described as a_Simple Mallet_
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Bedford Designer of Photo-Etches
bi...@mousa.demon.co.uk
----------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Harris
Another Railway System to use Fairlies was one in Mexico.
They had a class of 0-6-6-0 Double Fairlies for mineral haulage.
OK, apocrypha time. Allegedly, a train with one of these on the
front locked its brakes on the way down one day. Everyone jumped
off (as one does), the train not only stayed on the track (very
good riding engines, double Fairlies) but broke the line speed
record on the way down.
I love stories like this. They may be bullshit but I love 'em.
--
[] Peter Harris, Optoelectronics Network Supervisor, Southampton University []
"Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of the pox !"
"That, my Lord, depends on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress"
John Wilkes to The Earl of Sandwich, Parliament, November 1763
Johannes Stille
Tim Rumph <tar...@jabba.cybernetics.net> wrote:
[...]
>Some railroads (D&RGW for one) used three cylinder, compound
>engines. The two outside cylinders were in their normal position, and
>exhausted into the center cylinder, which drove a crank on one of the
>axils. There were generally two sets of valve gear on the left side of
>the engine, one to control that side and the other for the center
>cylinder. These engines had a 120 degree angle between crank pins rather
>than the usual 90 degrees.
Similar designs were quite common here in Germany and AFAIK elsewhere
in Europe. I've heard of the opposite construction, though: one high
pressure and two low pressure cylinders.
Also common were four cylinder compound locos with two cylinders
outside and two cylinders inside of the frame.
Articulated engines were very uncommon in Germany, there was only one
series of big Mallets from the Bavarian railways (later class 96, D'D
or for Americans 0-8-8-0), scrapped in 1948 or somewhen like that. All
other articulated engines were quite small engines built for very
curved lines, often narrow gauge lines.
Johannes
Nick Leverton
>In article <3337uk$h...@uc.msc.edu>, Wes Barris writes:
>>
>> Whether or not an articulated locomotive is a Mattet has _everything_
>> to do with hi and low pressure cylinders. Anatole Mallet designed
>> an articulated locomotive with four cylinders (two hi and two low
>Insidentally I have an article about a PRR loco in a c1920 edition of the
>Locomotive Magazine whiich is described as a_Simple Mallet_
There were several different patented schemes for building articulated
locomotives. Some, naturally, were more successful than others. I'm
going from memory here, but I believe the major types were these:
Mallet: two independent chassis, located entirely underneath the
locomotive, with cylinders at the outer ends. It may or may not have
been compounded.
Meyer: similar but had the cylinders at the inner ends.
Garrat: the boiler was slung between the two independent chassis,
thus permitting a large diameter boiler and massive firebox. Garrats
were without question the most successful articulated locomotive
design.
Fairlie: I'm not sure what the distinguishing characteristic of Fairlie's
patent was - it can't have been the double boiler, given the existence
of Single Fairlie designs. Anyone else know ? :-)
Kitson-Meyer: looked similar to a Garrat, but the rear chassis was
fixed rather than articulated. A dismal failure because of the
overhang at the rear on curves.
Nick Leverton
Peter Harris
[sundry deletions]
>Garrat: the boiler was slung between the two independent chassis,
>thus permitting a large diameter boiler and massive firebox. Garrats
>were without question the most successful articulated locomotive
>design.
Careful ! There are a lot of Mallet enthusiasts on here !
:-)
>Kitson-Meyer: looked similar to a Garrat, but the rear chassis was
>fixed rather than articulated. A dismal failure because of the
>overhang at the rear on curves.
I was under the impression that the Kitson-Meyer was similar in
layout to the Garrat but that the coal (or oil) and water were
carried on the same frame as the boiler. The front engine bogie
had its cylinders at the front (smokebox end) of the loco and
the rear unit had its cylinders at the rear of the loco (drawbar
end) and a seperate exhaust chimney.
I have a photograph and description of a class of these locos, built
by R. Stephenson for a S. American railway at home. Powerful beasts
they were too.
Richard F. Weyand
>In <777861...@warren.demon.co.uk> lev...@warren.demon.co.uk (Nick Leverton) writes:
>[sundry deletions]
>>Garrat: the boiler was slung between the two independent chassis,
>>thus permitting a large diameter boiler and massive firebox. Garrats
>>were without question the most successful articulated locomotive
>>design.
At one point the construction of a Mallet-Beyer-Garrat was considered:
wheel arrangement 2-8-8-2+2-8-8-2. Jeepers. Bartender! Draft (gear)
for everyone!
Rich Weyand | ~~~~*****MMMMMM) |Rich Weyand
Weyand Associates| _______ ___,---. ---+_______:_ |TracTronics
Comm Consultants | |_N_&_W_| |_N_&_W_| |__|________|_ |Model RR Electronics
wey...@mcs.com | ooo ooo ~ ooo ooo ~ oOOOO- OOOO=o\ |wey...@mcs.com
Gerard Stafleu
> At one point the construction of a Mallet-Beyer-Garrat was considered:
> wheel arrangement 2-8-8-2+2-8-8-2. Jeepers. Bartender! Draft (gear)
> for everyone!
Impressive, yes. But then these days we have these articulated
container cars, about five of them linked together I believe. Now cars
usually are not given wheel/axle designations, but as each sub-car has
two 4-wheel trucks, the designation could be 4-4+4-4+4-4+4-4+4-4,
for a grand-total of 40 wheels per "car", which beats the you-know-what
out of these tiny 18-wheelers puttering along the asphalt track...
--
Gerard Stafleu
ITS, University of Western Ontario,
London, Ontario, Canada N6A 5B7
email: ger...@uwo.ca phone:(519)661-2151
Richard F. Weyand
>In article <weyand.48...@mcs.com>, wey...@mcs.com (Richard F. Weyand) writes:
>> At one point the construction of a Mallet-Beyer-Garrat was considered:
>> wheel arrangement 2-8-8-2+2-8-8-2. Jeepers. Bartender! Draft (gear)
>> for everyone!
>Impressive, yes. But then these days we have these articulated
>container cars, about five of them linked together I believe. Now cars
>usually are not given wheel/axle designations, but as each sub-car has
>two 4-wheel trucks, the designation could be 4-4+4-4+4-4+4-4+4-4,
>for a grand-total of 40 wheels per "car", which beats the you-know-what
>out of these tiny 18-wheelers puttering along the asphalt track...
Careful, Gerard. The units I see have only one truck per articulation,
which would make them more of a B-2-2-2-2-2-B, or a 4+4+4+4+4+4.
I think....
Fredric W. Dabney
indeed have both engines free to swivel under the frame/boiler/water/fuel
structure...
The Santa Fe, during a particularly odd period in their history (or
hysteria) planned a quintuplex (!!!!), hinged boiler Mallet, tractor
design. Imagine a 2-10-10-10-10-10-2. Try imagining it sober. Try
imagining it while not being on drugs, or suffering a fever, or whatever.
OK. Now check the chapter called "Iron Horses the never made the Trail"
in E. D. Worley's "Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail". The staid, stolid
conservative ATSF imagined them. Kinda restores your faith in whimsy!
Also, they must have imagined the toorh fairy would provide steam....
Some years back, one of the British plastic companies marketed a Garrat in
dummy form, in the odd HO gage/ OO scale composite which I understand is
finally being laid to rest. It was of one of the few (only?) articulated
engines to run in the British Isles, and was a 2-6-0+0-6-2, if I remember
right. That or 2-6-2+2-6-2. The fuel bunker was designed to use powdered
coal and rotated like the cylinder in a cement mixer to feed the coal to
the firebox. Neat. Instead of the screw feed rotating in the coal pile,
the rotated the coal pile around the feed screw. What did I say about
whimsy?
Gordon Helbert
: >>
: >> Whether or not an articulated locomotive is a Mattet has _everything_
: >> to do with hi and low pressure cylinders. Anatole Mallet designed
: >> an articulated locomotive with four cylinders (two hi and two low
: [snip]
: >Insidentally I have an article about a PRR loco in a c1920 edition of the
: >Locomotive Magazine whiich is described as a_Simple Mallet_
I have also thought the term/design "Mallet" meant compounding, vs.
"simple articulated", but just saw a UP add from 1944/45 (WWII
period) where they (UP) call their "new" Big Boy a Mallet...
Also, as an aside, Jim Fredrickson, a Seattle area ex. NP dispatcher,
has a set of plans/drawings for a never built articulated to
replace their aging Z1's on Stampeed Pass, over the cascades.
Jim claims this engine would have been bigger than the Big Boy and
other greats of the day. Diesels (FT A_B_B_A's) killed it
of course, but did other railroads have similar plans?
Bill Bedford
In article <33m534$1...@dns1.NMSU.Edu>, Fredric W. Dabney writes:
> Some years back, one of the British plastic companies marketed a Garrat
in
> dummy form, in the odd HO gage/ OO scale composite which I understand is
> finally being laid to rest.
Hmmmm only in as far as most committed modellers are using 4mm scale on
either EM or 18.83mm track all the RTR is still OO
> It was of one of the few (only?) articulated
Two Types of Mainline Garretts - LMS 2-6-0 0-6-2 - 33 built
LNER 2-8-0 0-8-2 - 1 built
some industrials mostly 0-4-0 0-4-0 - about 10 built
Plus a number of narrow gauge Double Fairleys
> engines to run in the British Isles, and was a 2-6-0+0-6-2, if I
remember
> right. That or 2-6-2+2-6-2. The fuel bunker was designed to use
powdered
> coal and rotated like the cylinder in a cement mixer to feed the coal to
> the firebox. Neat. Instead of the screw feed rotating in the coal
pile,
> the rotated the coal pile around the feed screw. What did I say about
> whimsy?
>
These would have been Rosebud models of the LMS Garretts which have been
out of production for over 20 years. Since then there has been white metal
kits of the LMS (by Keyser now defunct) and the LNER (DJH).
The first three of the LMS Garrets had conventional coal spaces at first
but the production batch had the rotating coal drum. It was inclined at a
small angle and the purpose was to bring the coal forward to the coal
plate. The locos were hand fired with ordinary coal so there was no feed
screw.
There were designs for firing powdered coal and the LNER Garrett was
involved but it is an involved story so if anyone wants to know more about
it e-mail me and I'll sort out the info.
I have seen a LBG Garrett 2-6-0 0-6-2 I think. And a N gauge LMS Garrett
but I have to check whether it was scatched built or from a kit. It should
be easy enough to do a kit, you should be able to use Farish crab chassis
for the power units.
Fredric W. Dabney
to post something wrong and the corrections will come flooding in. Ask a
question and it can be like pulling teeth to get the answer you want.
The story does interest me, but I assume it would be better in
rec.railroads, and it can't be any odder than the stories about the engine
with drivers that rotated in opposite directions.
I gave the kit in question away years ago, and sorta wish I hadn't, now.
Many years ago, I met a man in a Chicago hobby shop (All Nation) who
intended to build an American styled Garrat, using two PFM Brass mikados
for source parts. I often wondered what ever happened to him. And his
project.
Fred Dabney
Tim Bourne
In article <33m534$1...@dns1.NMSU.Edu>, Fredric W. Dabney (fda...@nmsu.edu) writes:
> [snip]
>Some years back, one of the British plastic companies marketed a Garrat in
>dummy form, in the odd HO gage/ OO scale composite which I understand is
>engines to run in the British Isles, and was a 2-6-0+0-6-2, if I remember
>right. That or 2-6-2+2-6-2. The fuel bunker was designed to use powdered
>coal and rotated like the cylinder in a cement mixer to feed the coal to
>the firebox. Neat. Instead of the screw feed rotating in the coal pile,
>the rotated the coal pile around the feed screw. What did I say about
>whimsy?
>
2-6-0+0-6-2. I believe it was only the 1930 ones that had the
revolving coal bunker, but I may be wrong. They were used on heavy
coal trains from the Derby/Nottingham area to the yards at
Cricklewood near London, where they were turned on a loop. I still
have one of those plastic models!
Tim.
Gerard Stafleu
> Careful, Gerard. The units I see have only one truck per articulation,
> which would make them more of a B-2-2-2-2-2-B, or a 4+4+4+4+4+4.
You're right. The same afternoon I posted that I saw a train with
several of those cars passing over a bridge I was passing under. I had
an excellent view of the SINGLE truck at the juncture of each two cars!
Which only goes to show, never do anything serious on a Friday
afternoon.
Marco van Uden
>In article <weyand.48...@mcs.com>, wey...@mcs.com (Richard F. Weyand) writes:
>> Careful, Gerard. The units I see have only one truck per articulation,
>> which would make them more of a B-2-2-2-2-2-B, or a 4+4+4+4+4+4.
>
>You're right. The same afternoon I posted that I saw a train with
>several of those cars passing over a bridge I was passing under. I had
>an excellent view of the SINGLE truck at the juncture of each two cars!
>Which only goes to show, never do anything serious on a Friday
>afternoon.
>
>--
but at least known!
The passenger cars of the TGV all have a single bogie which joins two cars.
The TALGO even has a single axle joining two cars!
The only train we have in the Netherlands with a single bogie between two coaches
is an old class of DMUs. Just after WWII there were a lot of DMUs and EMUs with
a single bogie between two cars. I remember a 5-car DMU, which consisted of a 'normal'
car on two bogies, a motor car on two bogies, and 3 more cars on 4 bogies.
The name used for these bogies in the Netherlands is 'Jakobs' bogies. Is this a
standard name for this?
Cheers, Marco
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Ir. M.A. van Uden | Email: ma...@nikhefk.nikhef.nl |
| NIKHEF-K, Emin Group | (ma...@dds.hacktic.nl) |
| Postbus 41882 | |
| NL-1009 DB Amsterdam | Tel. : (+31)-(0)20-5922075 |
| The Netherlands | Fax : (+31)-(0)20-5922165 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this message dealt with trains or railways it was only MY opinion.
Nuclear Physics Laboratories don't know anything about trains!
Peter Ahlstrom
ma...@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Marco van Uden) writes:
|>
|> The only train we have in the Netherlands with a single bogie between two
|> coaches
|> is an old class of DMUs. Just after WWII there were a lot of DMUs and EMUs
|> with
|> a single bogie between two cars. I remember a 5-car DMU, which consisted of a
|> 'normal'
|> car on two bogies, a motor car on two bogies, and 3 more cars on 4 bogies.
|>
|> The name used for these bogies in the Netherlands is 'Jakobs' bogies. Is this
|> a
|> standard name for this?
|>
three
car DMU Y2 (Danish IC3) which has 4 bogies.
Peter Ahlstrom
Applied Physics Ph +46-31-772 33 68
Chalmers/Univ Goteborg Fax +46-31-772 31 34
S 412 96 Goteborg,Sweden Email ahls...@fy.chalmers.se
Urban Fredriksson
>is an old class of DMUs. Just after WWII there were a lot of DMUs and EMUs with
>a single bogie between two cars. I remember a 5-car DMU, which consisted
>of a 'normal' >car on two bogies, a motor car on two bogies, and 3 more
>cars on 4 bogies.
>The name used for these bogies in the Netherlands is 'Jakobs' bogies. Is
>this a >standard name for this?
The name was used for old passenger cars with that arrangement in
Sweden.
--
Urban Fredriksson u...@icl.se
If you plan on reading just one book this year -- you read far too few books.
Dr. B.J.Fisher
: [sundry deletions]
: >Garrat: the boiler was slung between the two independent chassis,
: >thus permitting a large diameter boiler and massive firebox. Garrats
: >were without question the most successful articulated locomotive
: >design.
: Careful ! There are a lot of Mallet enthusiasts on here !
: :-)
: >Kitson-Meyer: looked similar to a Garrat, but the rear chassis was
: >fixed rather than articulated. A dismal failure because of the
: >overhang at the rear on curves.
: I was under the impression that the Kitson-Meyer was similar in
: layout to the Garrat but that the coal (or oil) and water were
: carried on the same frame as the boiler. The front engine bogie
: had its cylinders at the front (smokebox end) of the loco and
: the rear unit had its cylinders at the rear of the loco (drawbar
: end) and a seperate exhaust chimney.
: I have a photograph and description of a class of these locos, built
: by R. Stephenson for a S. American railway at home. Powerful beasts
: they were too.
There is some confusion here, with the Modified Fairlie used briefly in
South Africa being mixed up with a Kitson Meyer. The Modified Fairlie in
question (the term can cover a multitude of designs) looked virtually
identical to a Beyer-Garratt (correct title: Beyer from Beyer Peacock who
built almost all of them, Garratt from the designer), with water tank ahead
of the smokebox, coal/water behind cab, BUT all on one frame, not three as
with a Garratt. The lunacy of this was soon realised.
The Kitson-Meyer only shows very small deviations from the classic 1850s
Meyer design and is distinguished essentially by its great size in most
cases. The definitive book on the K-M, if I remember correctly, is by
A.E. Durrant. In terms of coal/water carrying, most K-Ms were conventional
side tanks. I'm not sure, but I don't think all had the second exhaust
chimney.
Here in North Wales we (or rather the Ffestiniog Railway) are still building
and using classic Double Fairlies (cab in the middle, smokebox at each end)
on 2 foot gauge, and we are about to have Beyer-Garratts on the rebuilt
Welsh Highland Railway, first section from Caernarfon (ultimate goal
Porthmadog) due to open at Easter 1996. We already have the first ever
Garratt (K1, ex-Tasmania, now on loan to National Railway Museum, York), and
three NGG16s are being bought from South Africa. We also have (in pieces!)
a Bagnall-Meyer (about the simplest form of Meyer there is).
- Ben Fisher.
Jeremy Double
[snip]
: The passenger cars of the TGV all have a single bogie which joins two cars.
: The TALGO even has a single axle joining two cars!
: The only train we have in the Netherlands with a single bogie between two coaches
: is an old class of DMUs. Just after WWII there were a lot of DMUs and EMUs with
: a single bogie between two cars. I remember a 5-car DMU, which consisted of a 'normal'
: car on two bogies, a motor car on two bogies, and 3 more cars on 4 bogies.
Articulated coaching stock sets were commonly used in the UK by Gresley on the
Grat Northern Railway (GNR) and London and North Eastern Railway (LNER)
between about 1902 and 1940. Some of the units survived into the 1960s
on British Railways.
These ranged from sets formed of two coaches on three bogies up to sets of
five coaches on six bogies. Articulated stock for both expresses and
suburban work were built, the express stock mostly being twin sets, while
the suburban stock was built as twin-, quad- and quin- articulated sets.
The earliest sets were converted from GNR six-wheel coaches -- the bogies
gave them a better ride than the original rigid six-wheel chassis. The
LNER streamlined trains in the 1930s, such as the Silver Jubilee and the
Coronation were formed mainly from streamlined twin-articulated sets.
All of this stock was for steam haulage.
: The name used for these bogies in the Netherlands is 'Jakobs' bogies. Is this a
: standard name for this?
In the UK they are just known as "articulated" bogies. I think that there
used to be one in the National Railway Museum, York -- perhaps someone
will correct me if I am wrong.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremy Double Chemical Engineering
J.M.D...@bradford.ac.uk University of Bradford, UK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Harris
[Kitson-Meyer wisdom deleted]
> We also have (in pieces!)
>a Bagnall-Meyer (about the simplest form of Meyer there is).
Coo ! This sounds like an interesting beast. What's its history ?
I've seen a Bagnall railway locomotive at Quainton Road but that
was only an 0-4-0, a very weird little machine it was too.
I must go back to that part of the world, its been years since
I had a chuff up the Ffestiniog.
John1082
J.M.D...@bradford.ac.uk (Jeremy Double) writes:
We also had articulated coaches in the US. The Southern Pacific had a
good number of them. Used initially on the Coast Daylight, the coaches
(and later diners) made their way throughout the SP system. The
Pennsylvania also had some articulated diners and there may have been
others as well. These were designed for use behind steam locomotives.
The early streamliners (CB&Q, UP) were articulated as well.
John Gezelius
Alexandria, VA
Sam Wilson
J.M.D...@bradford.ac.uk (Jeremy Double) wrote:
> Articulated coaching stock sets were commonly used in the UK ...
> between about 1902 and 1940. ...
> All of this stock was for steam haulage.
There are at least two instances of articulated stock that I know of in
Britain just now, both light rail rather than mainstream. They are the
Tyneside Metro which uses two car, three bogie stock on segregated RoW, and
the Manchester Metro with similarly articulated tram-type vehicles in a
mixture of segregated (former BR) routes and street running. I would guess
the new Sheffield Metro has similar vehicles to Manchester. Oh, and what
about the Docklands Light Railway?
Sam
Mark Power
: In the UK they are just known as "articulated" bogies. I think that there
: used to be one in the National Railway Museum, York -- perhaps someone
: will correct me if I am wrong.
It was still there last year.
--
--
Mark Power. E-mail po...@gfms.bt.co.uk Tel +44 473 224049 Fax +44 473 254572
Senior Software Engineer, Problem Management Applications, BT Labs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
+Opinions expressed herein are my own, and not necessarily those of BT plc.+
Peter Ahlstrom
(Sam Wilson) writes:
|> There are at least two instances of articulated stock that I know of in
|> Britain just now, both light rail rather than mainstream. They are the
|> Tyneside Metro which uses two car, three bogie stock on segregated RoW, and
|> the Manchester Metro with similarly articulated tram-type vehicles in a
|> mixture of segregated (former BR) routes and street running. I would guess
|> the new Sheffield Metro has similar vehicles to Manchester. Oh, and what
|> about the Docklands Light Railway?
|>
|> Sam
(or more) of all cities with trams (streetcars for Americans) will get
mentioned....
Wes Barris
|> : >In article <3337uk$h...@uc.msc.edu>, Wes Barris writes:
|> : >>
|> : >> Whether or not an articulated locomotive is a Mattet has _everything_
|> : >> to do with hi and low pressure cylinders. Anatole Mallet designed
|> : >> an articulated locomotive with four cylinders (two hi and two low
|> : [snip]
|> : >Insidentally I have an article about a PRR loco in a c1920 edition of the
|> : >Locomotive Magazine whiich is described as a_Simple Mallet_
|>
|> I have also thought the term/design "Mallet" meant compounding, vs.
|> "simple articulated", but just saw a UP add from 1944/45 (WWII
|> period) where they (UP) call their "new" Big Boy a Mallet...
I too have seen stuff like this. For example, I've seen Yellowstones
called Mallets. However, wouldn't rely on ads for providing definitive,
truthfull information. A better source of information about what a
mallet "really" is would be an historical book on mallet/articulated
steam engines.
|> Also, as an aside, Jim Fredrickson, a Seattle area ex. NP dispatcher,
|> has a set of plans/drawings for a never built articulated to
|> replace their aging Z1's on Stampeed Pass, over the cascades.
|> Jim claims this engine would have been bigger than the Big Boy and
|> other greats of the day. Diesels (FT A_B_B_A's) killed it
|> of course, but did other railroads have similar plans?
BIGGER??? Oh no! Not again! A steam engine "Bigger" than a Big Boy?
First "Bigger" must be defined. Then the question can be answered.
--
o O O O O o o o o o o o o . . . . . . .
__________ ___ ___ __ _
/_______|--`--|_ _|--=-==---|_ _|--,_|__|_ |-+-------`____________,
| ||_| / - | / - \ | || ________ | |
|_|___/------------|----__---------|------|||__|__|__| |SOUTHERN PACIFIC LINES|
|_|____________/-------{__}---------------{__}_______|=|_________ ________|
/_(o)=(o) ( )( )( )( ) [__] ( )( )( )( ) [__]--(o) (o)(o)(o)-----(o)(o)(o)
===============================================================================
Wes Barris Web: http://www.arc.umn.edu/~wes/steam.html
Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc. PH: (612) 626-8090 Email: w...@msc.edu
Dr. B.J.Fisher
: In <34224r$n...@clss3.bangor.ac.uk> mls004@thunder ( Dr. B.J.Fisher) writes:
: [Kitson-Meyer wisdom deleted]
: > We also have (in pieces!)
: >a Bagnall-Meyer (about the simplest form of Meyer there is).
: Coo ! This sounds like an interesting beast. What's its history ?
: I've seen a Bagnall railway locomotive at Quainton Road but that
: was only an 0-4-0, a very weird little machine it was too.
: I must go back to that part of the world, its been years since
: I had a chuff up the Ffestiniog.
The engine in question is _Monarch_, built by Bagnalls in 1953 for paper
mills work on what is now the Sittingbourne & Kemsley Railway in Kent
(2 foot 6 inch gauge). It was the last narrow gauge steam engine built for
a British industrial customer. _Monarch_ was sold to the Welshpool &
Llanfair in 1966, but was never a great success; this was put down to the
marine firebox and difficulties over the up-and-down gradients of the W&L.
I only ever saw her in steam there once. After several years out of use
she moved to the FR in 1992, and was dismantled in due course. At the moment
most of _Monarch_ is in bits in Minffordd Yard, while the bogies are being
regauged to FR gauge elsewhere (all the other Bagnall-Meyers were 2 foot
gauge anyway, and went to sugar plantations in South Africa). The theory is
that the almost continuous one-way gradient of the FR and oil firing will
make _Monarch_ a Really Useful Engine at last. I'm only aware of one other
B-M in the world, an ex-South Africa engine (they're all 0-4-4-0s) at the
Cripple Creek & Victor RR in the States. I could be wrong.
- Ben Fisher.
John W. Baxter
wrote:
After being passed over in the initial Amtrak equipment selections, some
of the SP articulated coaches were later picked up, and found their way to
the San Diegans. By then, they were, unfortunately, pure junk (they had
clearly been stored next to salt water and wind for quite a while...that
side was rotting away.
We finally got them off the San Diegans when Amtrak HQ slapped a quite low
speed limit on them (90 mph needed on the line).
--JOhn
--
John Baxter Port Ludlow, WA, USA [West shore, Puget Sound]
"Occasionally...astronomers add a second to either June 31 or
December 31..." IM: OS Utilities, p 4-12
jwba...@pt.olympus.net
Bill Bedford
In article <344kf4$k...@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>, Mark Power writes:
>
> Jeremy Double (J.M.D...@bradford.ac.uk) wrote:
> : In the UK they are just known as "articulated" bogies. I think that
there
> : used to be one in the National Railway Museum, York -- perhaps someone
> : will correct me if I am wrong.
>
> It was still there last year.
>
There a quad art (or may be a qint) at the North Norfolk Railway
Kevin Centers
>the San Diegans. By then, they were, unfortunately, pure junk (they had
>clearly been stored next to salt water and wind for quite a while...that
>side was rotting away.
Pullman Standard used disimilar metal in their construction. Stainless over
carbon steel doesn't work well. Southern Ry's prewar PS equipment is rotting
to the ground too, as is every car I've ever come in contact with that has
the stainless fluting applied directcly over the carbon steel structure.
Apparently it was bad enough that when Southern went back to PS after the
war, they specified a stainless sheet under the fluting. This kept the
water away from the stainless/carbon joints, and tended to make the car last
longer. ACF had the same problem with it's aluminium and carbon steel cars-
aluminum turns back into bauxite. Maybe somebody out there with a little
more metal background than I can provide the technical support.
kevin
Bill Bedford
In article <344q9r$5...@uc.msc.edu>, Wes Barris writes:
>
> In article <33n401$6...@cyberspace.com>, b...@cyberspace.com (Gordon
Helbert) writes:
> |> : >In article <3337uk$h...@uc.msc.edu>, Wes Barris writes:
> |> : >>
> |> : >> Whether or not an articulated locomotive is a Mattet has
_everything_
> |> : >> to do with hi and low pressure cylinders. Anatole Mallet
designed
> |> : >> an articulated locomotive with four cylinders (two hi and two
low
> |> : [snip]
> |> : >Insidentally I have an article about a PRR loco in a c1920 edition
of the
> |> : >Locomotive Magazine whiich is described as a_Simple Mallet_
> |>
> |> I have also thought the term/design "Mallet" meant compounding, vs.
> |> "simple articulated", but just saw a UP add from 1944/45 (WWII
> |> period) where they (UP) call their "new" Big Boy a Mallet...
>
> I too have seen stuff like this. For example, I've seen Yellowstones
> called Mallets. However, wouldn't rely on ads for providing definitive,
> truthfull information. A better source of information about what a
> mallet "really" is would be an historical book on mallet/articulated
> steam engines.
I have plans of a PRR loco in a 1920 edition of the Locomotive Magazine
which is described as a 'Simple Mallet'
This thread seems to go back a long long way.
Fredric W. Dabney
as I menitoned earlier, the term "Mallet" became a generic term for the
articulated steam engine in the US- mostly because all the other designs
of articulated engines never really were commercially successful here. (if
you ignore Shays, Heislers, Climaxes, etc which were seldom used in the
same settings as "Mallets". I say "seldom", not "never"; there were some
pretty small "Mallet" types on lumber roads, and a few rather large Shays
used by major roads- but let's not cloud the issue further)
I have even seen mention of certain articulated electric locos as
"Electric Mallets". The image is certainly clear. "Mallet" was a
metaphor as well as a noun and an adjective.
Nick Leverton
>: > We also have (in pieces!)
>: >a Bagnall-Meyer (about the simplest form of Meyer there is).
>
>: Coo ! This sounds like an interesting beast. What's its history ?
>: I've seen a Bagnall railway locomotive at Quainton Road but that
>: was only an 0-4-0, a very weird little machine it was too.
>
>mills work on what is now the Sittingbourne & Kemsley Railway in Kent
>(2 foot 6 inch gauge). It was the last narrow gauge steam engine built for
>a British industrial customer.
Oh! I *do* hope you get Monarch going! I spent several years working
on the Sittingbourne and Kemsley soon after preservation. They still
run a fleet of conventional Bagnall 0-6-2T's and Kerr, Stuart 0-4-2T's,
the exact numbers in service varying from time to time :-)
They also have, as a static exhibit, "Unique", a 2-4-0 Fireless loco,
which I think was also a Bagnall. Fireless loco's were quite common in
paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
pressure steam, which was then used in the cylinders as usual. Normally
they would have the cylinders under the cab, so as to minimise the
length of the steam passages, and would exhaust through a pipe behind
the cab. The reservoir would be sized so as to provide enough steam for
half a shift, although Unique in practice managed a full shift (eight
hours) on a charge of steam.
Quite a surprising number of ex-Bowater (for they it was who owned the
line) loco's have been preserved : three Bagnalls (Superb, Triumph and
Alpha), three KS's (Premier, Leader and Melior), Unique and Victor
(0-4-0DM) on the S&K, Monarch on the W&L and now the Festiniog, and four
assorted locos on the Whipsnade Zoo railway (Chevallier (sic) ... damn,
I've forgotten the others). In fact, from memory, I think the only
scrappee was the original Victor, which was a second fireless loco.
Oh, happy days, chipping out the insides of coal bunkers ...
Nick
Richard Hunt
> They also have, as a static exhibit, "Unique", a 2-4-0 Fireless loco,
> which I think was also a Bagnall. Fireless loco's were quite common in
> paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
> charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
> pressure steam, which was then used in the cylinders as usual. Normally
> they would have the cylinders under the cab, so as to minimise the
> length of the steam passages, and would exhaust through a pipe behind
> the cab. The reservoir would be sized so as to provide enough steam for
> half a shift, although Unique in practice managed a full shift (eight
> hours) on a charge of steam.
Some were in use until quite recently. During 1985, I spent six months as
a placement student working for Dynamit Nobel AG in their chemicals and
plastic works at Troisdorf near Cologne in Germany. The works railway,
which was standard gauge and linked to the DB main line, had a couple of
diesel locos and an 0-4-0 Fireless, I think a Henschel. It was painted in
the then latest corporate colors - light blue with a white company logo
on the side of the steam reservoir. I wonder if it is still there?
Richard Hunt
rh...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Sam Wilson
> paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
> charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
Steam?! Air, surely. You'd need to keep steam at high temperature to
maintain pressure.
Sam Wilson
Network Services Division
Computing Services, The University of Edinburgh
Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879
by rh...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Richard Hunt"):
> leve...@warren.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> Fireless loco's were quite common in paper mills and munitions plants ...
> Some were in use until quite recently. During 1985, ...
> [at] Dynamit Nobel AG in their chemicals and plastic works at Troisdorf
> near Cologne in Germany. [they had an] ... 0-4-0 Fireless, ... Henschel.
The Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Illinois, has a fireless engine,
in bad shape, in among their other rusting hulks that are awaiting
restoration. It would be an interesting restoration candidate,
particularly if it could be run on compressed air instead of steam.
Doug Jones
jo...@cs.uiowa.edu
Jeremy Double
: > ... Fireless loco's were quite common in
: > paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
: > charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
: > pressure steam ...
: Steam?! Air, surely. You'd need to keep steam at high temperature to
: maintain pressure.
No, steam is right. The reservoirs were well insulated. They were
charged from the plant's steam system.
Boots (pharmaceutical manufacturers), Beeston, nr Nottingham, UK, had one
as back-up for their diesel-electric shunter until the early 80s. I think
that they only got rid of it when they abandoned rail transport.
Peter Ahlstrom
Sam.W...@ed.ac.uk (Sam Wilson) writes:
|> > ... Fireless loco's were quite common in
|> > paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
|> > charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
|> > pressure steam ...
|>
|> Steam?! Air, surely. You'd need to keep steam at high temperature to
|> maintain pressure.
|>
the steam reservoir and look indeed strange. (not to be drawn in ASCII)
Malcolm Roe
>> ... Fireless loco's were quite common in
>> paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
>> charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
>> pressure steam ...
>
>Steam?! Air, surely. You'd need to keep steam at high temperature to
>maintain pressure.
No, it was steam not air. In fact it was a bit more complicated than
that. A substantial amount of the tank, which was well insulated,
contained water at boiling point. As steam was drawn off the pressure
would drop a little so more water would boil and replenish the steam.
This was how sufficient steam was made available to last for a complete
shift. If compressed air had been used it would probably only have
lasted about 5 minutes before the pressure had dropped too low to be
useful.
--
Malcolm Roe Phone : +44 442 230000 ext 5104
Crosfield Electronics Ltd Fax : +44 442 232301
Hemel Hempstead, Herts. HP2 7RH, UK E-mail : r...@crosfield.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Werkema
>
>Some were in use until quite recently. During 1985, I spent six months as
>a placement student working for Dynamit Nobel AG in their chemicals and
>plastic works at Troisdorf near Cologne in Germany. The works railway,
>which was standard gauge and linked to the DB main line, had a couple of
>diesel locos and an 0-4-0 Fireless, I think a Henschel. It was painted in
>the then latest corporate colors - light blue with a white company logo
>on the side of the steam reservoir. I wonder if it is still there?
It seems like a number of fireless cookers have been retired in recent
years, and many new depot-museums have one of these along with the usual
caboose. I can think of five fireless engines on display in Ohio and
northeastern Pennsylvania (there's even one in Northeast, PA!), and there
are undoubtedly more.
-- ____________________ _______________
__________ .. _______ I EVERGREEN I I MAERSK
___/ooI= = ===~~~~~~``~======I _I------------------I_ _I--------------
I_I~ I---____Santa Fe__=_=_=I_I __I \----------------/ I__I \-------------
`-'O==O==O~============~O==O==O`-'~`o==o~----------------~o==o~--------------
--Evan Werkem...@po.cwru.edu--"Ship and Travel Santa Fe...All the Way!"--
George Robbins
> Sam Wilson (Sam.W...@ed.ac.uk) wrote:
> : > ... Fireless loco's were quite common in
> : > paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
> : > charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
> : > pressure steam ...
>
> : Steam?! Air, surely. You'd need to keep steam at high temperature to
> : maintain pressure.
>
> No, steam is right. The reservoirs were well insulated. They were
> charged from the plant's steam system.
Acutually, ususally steam or steam and superheated water. Depending on the
plant steam available, the "boiler" temperature/pressure could be quite
high, and much of the water could turn to steam as the locmotive worked.
Power plants typically had steam of 400-1000 PSI available, while chemical
plants might only have process steam at 50-100 PSI.
Air operated locmotives where sometimes used for mining or similar purposed,
but they were not very effective. Basically, you can get a lot more "work"
out of a "boiler" charged with 300 PSI superheated water/steam than one
charged with 300 PSI of air...
--
George Robbins - still working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing: uucp: no current notion!
Commodore Electronics Limited domain: g...@commodore.com
George Robbins
> In article <Cvr5o...@cix.compulink.co.uk> rh...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Richard Hunt") writes:
> >
> >Some were in use until quite recently. During 1985, I spent six months as
> >a placement student working for Dynamit Nobel AG in their chemicals and
> >plastic works at Troisdorf near Cologne in Germany. The works railway,
> >which was standard gauge and linked to the DB main line, had a couple of
> >diesel locos and an 0-4-0 Fireless, I think a Henschel. It was painted in
> >the then latest corporate colors - light blue with a white company logo
> >on the side of the steam reservoir. I wonder if it is still there?
>
> It seems like a number of fireless cookers have been retired in recent
> years, and many new depot-museums have one of these along with the usual
> caboose. I can think of five fireless engines on display in Ohio and
> northeastern Pennsylvania (there's even one in Northeast, PA!), and there
> are undoubtedly more.
Many of these engines were put on standby when power plants switched from
burning coal to oil or natural gas for pollution concerns. As these old
power plants are upgraded or demolished, the engines come available. Most
newer "coal" plants use other coal-handling means or move/dump cars with
stationary apparatus or have a small diesel.
The only problem with their presense in collections is that they don't
"do anything" - even assuming you can rig up a safe "charging" connection
to a locomotive, you won't get much action from only 150-250 PSI steam.
Mark Brader
> > paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
> > charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
> Some were in use until quite recently. During 1985, I...
It might be noted that compressed air is an alternative to steam for this
application. After all, the only real reason for using steam to drive the
pistons in the first place is that you can make large volumes of it with
very simple apparatus. I think I actually have heard of some fireless
locomotives using compressed air rather than steam, but I'm not sure
about that.
What I am sure of is that a few cities used compressed-air *streetcars* on
the same principle, for a short time around the turn of the century. Two of
these systems were in France: Paris and Nantes. The vehicles -- one of which
is preserved at the Musee des Transports Urbains near Paris -- had to carry
a small firebox to heat the compressed air: since it cools when expanding,
ice would form on the cylinders otherwise. They also needed fairly frequent
recharges, so a long route would require many charging stations. Soon enough
it was realized that electric power was preferable and these cars disappeared.
--
Mark Brader | "Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing."
m...@sq.com | "Doing *anything* is worse than doing nothing!"
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto | -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER
This article is in the public domain.
dave pierson
>Sam Wilson (Sam.W...@ed.ac.uk) wrote:
>: > ... Fireless loco's were quite common in
>: > paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
>: > charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
>: > pressure steam ...
>: Steam?! Air, surely. You'd need to keep steam at high temperature to
>: maintain pressure.
>No, steam is right. The reservoirs were well insulated. They were
>charged from the plant's steam system.
Everything i have seen (including some UK books) says hot WATER. It is
flashed to steam thru the regulator, then used for power. The plant
steam "bubbles" the on board "boiler" to raise the ater temperature.
(Compressed AIR locos are a separate beast, mostly used in mining, where
compressed air was commonly used anyway, and the "exhaust" improved the
ventilation....)
thanks
dave pierson |the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation |the opinions, my own.
200 Forest St |I am the NRA.
Marlboro, Mass 01751 |pie...@msd26.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing." A J Raffles
Richard F. Weyand
>> > Fireless loco's were quite common in
>> > paper mills and munitions plants, for obvious reasons ! They worked by
>> > charging up a large reservoir in place of the boiler with very high
>> > pressure steam, which was then used in the cylinders as usual. ...
>> Some were in use until quite recently. During 1985, I...
>It might be noted that compressed air is an alternative to steam for this
>application. After all, the only real reason for using steam to drive the
>pistons in the first place is that you can make large volumes of it with
>very simple apparatus.
Nope. Steam holds _much_ more energy than the same volume/pressure
of compressed air, and superheated pressurized water holds _much_
more energy than that. Too busy to work the numbers right now, but it
is a large difference.
Rich Weyand | ~~~~*****MMMMMM) |Rich Weyand
Weyand Associates| _______ ___,---. ---+_______:_ |TracTronics
Comm Consultants | |_N_&_W_| |_N_&_W_| |__|________|_ |Model RR Electronics
wey...@mcs.com | ooo ooo ~ ooo ooo ~ oOOOO- OOOO=o\ |wey...@mcs.com
Johannes Stille
Richard Hunt <rh...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>leve...@warren.demon.co.uk wrote:
[ about fireless locos ]
>
>Some were in use until quite recently. During 1985, I spent six months as
>a placement student working for Dynamit Nobel AG in their chemicals and
>plastic works at Troisdorf near Cologne in Germany. The works railway,
>which was standard gauge and linked to the DB main line, had a couple of
>diesel locos and an 0-4-0 Fireless, I think a Henschel. It was painted in
Here in Osnabrueck, Germany the Schoeller paper mill (on the whole a small
company, but has quite a share of the world market in papers for
photographs) still uses a fireless loco. They even bought the present
one only a few years ago as replacement for another fireless loco.
AFAIK, a fireless loco is economically useful for them because a paper
mill anyway has to produce steam in huge amounts and thus can refill
the loco cheaply.
Johannes
Sam Wilson
(Malcolm Roe) wrote:
> In article <Sam.Wilson-07...@mcfadzean.ucs.ed.ac.uk>
> Sam.W...@ed.ac.uk (Sam Wilson) writes:
> > [ someone else wrote ]
> >> ... Fireless loco's ... very high
> >> pressure steam ...
> >
> >Steam?! Air, surely. You'd need to keep steam at high temperature to
> >maintain pressure.
>
> No, it was steam not air. [explanation deleted]
Well, you learn something new every day! Part of the reason I was
sceptical is that I do remember seeing photos of fireless locos that I
remember as purportedly driven by air, but I have no idea where they were
now to go and check.
Thanks for the correction (and the physics of having water there too makes
much more sense than just filling a reservoir with superheated steam).
Sam
dave pierson
been used. Hot water/steam stores more energy than air per unit
volume (The heat of phase change). Air locos were mostly in mining,
with short runs, no sparks (as compared with electric mine loks, the
exhaust _helps_ with the venttilation and the air supply is usually
there anyway.
> It seems like a number of fireless cookers have been retired in recent
>years, and many new depot-museums have one of these along with the usual
>caboose. I can think of five fireless engines on display in Ohio and
>northeastern Pennsylvania (there's even one in Northeast, PA!), and there
>are undoubtedly more.
Wes Barris can susbet his list (Wes....???) for this. One, is in
western PA at New Castle.
Sam Wilson
compressed air loco at the Museum of Science and Technology in Manchester
(yes, Manchester, England, the original - perhaps I should say 'Manchester
Classic'... :-) ). Can anyone who knows the museum better give us any
details?
Sam
Mark Enderby
The loco is a fireless which used to work at one of the power stations
in the NW - Lancaster I think. Can't remember details but I think it's
an Andrew Barclay 0-6-0, but there were some Hawthorn Leslies in CEGB
use.
BTW The only UK compressed air locos I have heard of were 3 at Lackenby
Steelworks on Teesside. These were 0-4-0ST, stripped to the frames and
compressers mounted which supplied compressed air to the cylinders. I
have phots of 2 of them taken about 14 years ago. By then they were OOU
and all have now been scrapped.
--
Cheers,
Mark
========================================================================
Mark Enderby
Systems Manager e-mail - M.J.E...@DL.AC.UK
DRAL
Daresbury Laboratory
Keckwick Lane
Daresbury
Warrington tel: 0925-603353
WA4 4AD Int:+44-925-603353
UK fax: 0925-603230
Wes Barris
|>
|> > It seems like a number of fireless cookers have been retired in recent
|> >years, and many new depot-museums have one of these along with the usual
|> >caboose. I can think of five fireless engines on display in Ohio and
|> >northeastern Pennsylvania (there's even one in Northeast, PA!), and there
|> >are undoubtedly more.
|> Wes Barris can susbet his list (Wes....???) for this. One, is in
|> western PA at New Castle.
Well, OK.
BTW, the most impressive (and best looking?) fireless cooker I've seen
is the 0-8-0 at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Here are some
others:
3 0-4-0F AL Power Co. H of D NRHS, Birmingham, AL
3 0-4-0F CT Coke Co. CT Valley RR Museum, Essex, CT
0-4-0F STW New Britain, CT
1 0-4-0F DelmarvaP&Li W&W, Greenbank, DE
33 0-4-0F T. R. Miller Newport Ind., Pensacola, FL
0-4-0F NCR Southeastern RY Museum, Duluth, GA
4 0-4-0F UTCO Illinois RY Museum, Union, IL
7 0-4-0F NCR Ntnl Mus of Transport, St. Louis, MO
7 0-4-0F Gt. Lake Ca Ntnl Mus of Transport, St. Louis, MO
34 0-4-0F Herc. Powder park, Hattiesburg, MS
S-1 0-4-0F GN BN Tie plant, Sommers, MT
S-2 0-4-0F GN BN Tie plant, Sommers, MT
3 0-4-0F Car Pwr & L NC Transportation Mus, Spencer, NC
7240 21t 0-4-0F Texas Oil Co Bergen Vo-Tech School, Hackensack, NJ
7 0-6-0F Clev Elec Mad River & NYC&StL RR, Bellevue, OH
44280 0-4-0F Valley Falls, OH
0-4-0F Heislr MVRRHA, Jeannette Blast Furnace, Youngstown, OH
7767 0-4-0F PA Pwr&Light Blue Mountain & Reading, Hamburg, PA
0-4-0F station, Jim Thorpe, PA
0-4-0F Chamber of Commerce (RR station), New Castle, PA
6 0-6-0F Cle Elec Lakeshore RY Museum, North East, PA
6816 0-6-0F PSE&G Steamtown Nat Hist Site, Scranton, PA
1 0-6-0F Penn P&L Shamokin Dam, PA
2 0-6-0F Penn P&L Shamokin Dam, PA
110 0-4-0F OldExpresLtd "3 by the River" Restaurants, Sharon, PA
111 0-4-0F BethlehemStl RR Museum of PA, Strasburg, PA
4094 0-8-0F PA Pwr&Light RR Museum of PA, Strasburg, PA
1op 0-6-0F Beaunit Corp., Elizabethton, TN
1 0-4-0F Celanese Co VA Museum of Trans, Roanoke, VA
Malcolm Roe
compressed air locos, which I had never heard of before. However,
all the time I had a picture of one on my bookshelves! The book
is the Cyclopedia of Engineering vol IV (1910), published in the USA.
One of the plates shows a Porter compressed air locomotive numbered 98.
It's an 0-6-0 and has fairly conventional cylinders, rods and wheels.
However, in place of a boiler it has two pressure vessels side by side,
running more or less the complete length of the locomotive. There's
no lagging of course so you can see all the rivets. The other oddity
is that there's no cab as such, just a roof! Unfortunately I can't
find any text about the loco. Does anyone know anything more?
Volume IV of the Cyclopedia is mainly devoted to US railroad
engineering (295 pages) and has much of interest. Another thread
running here recently has been about Mallets and whether they were
always compounds. There are a number of examples in the book. Most
are small, e.g. 0-6-6-0s, although there is one 2-8-8-2. All are
compounds. Another interesting thing is the number of locomotives,
presumably modern in 1910, with two cabs. One cab, I assume for the
engineer since it has windows, is about half way along and astride
the boiler. The other one is in the normal position, behind the
firebox, but with no windows. There's an 0-8-8-0 Mallet, two
4-4-2s, a 4-4-0, an 0-6-0 and a 2-8-0 all showing this double
cab arrangement. There's an interesting section on electrification
to.
Evan Werkema
>Another interesting thing is the number of locomotives,
>presumably modern in 1910, with two cabs. One cab, I assume for the
>engineer since it has windows, is about half way along and astride
>the boiler. The other one is in the normal position, behind the
>firebox, but with no windows. There's an 0-8-8-0 Mallet, two
>4-4-2s, a 4-4-0, an 0-6-0 and a 2-8-0 all showing this double
>cab arrangement.
This was the infamous "mother hubbard" cab. The engineer rode in
the cab at the middle of the boiler, while the fireman stood on the
deck at the back, where the cab should have been. Someone once said that
the only benefit of the arrangement would be if the engineer and fireman
were arch enemies, though the intent was probably better visibility for
the engineer. At any rate, the arrangement proved inconvenient to say the
least, and many mother hubbards were converted to more standard
arrangements. I believe there are only two or three examples of this style
of locomotive left...I think one is on the Strasburg (an 0-4-0, not
operational) in Pennsylvania.
Dr. B.J.Fisher
: This has been an interesting thread, especially when it touched on
: compressed air locos, which I had never heard of before. However,
: all the time I had a picture of one on my bookshelves! The book
: is the Cyclopedia of Engineering vol IV (1910), published in the USA.
: One of the plates shows a Porter compressed air locomotive numbered 98.
: It's an 0-6-0 and has fairly conventional cylinders, rods and wheels.
: However, in place of a boiler it has two pressure vessels side by side,
: running more or less the complete length of the locomotive. There's
: no lagging of course so you can see all the rivets. The other oddity
: is that there's no cab as such, just a roof! Unfortunately I can't
: find any text about the loco. Does anyone know anything more?
Not about this one but there is if I remember correctly a n.g. 0-4-0
compressed air mining loco in the Deutsches Museum in Munich, Germany. Among
the many other delights there (S.3/6 Pacific, rack-adhesion Engerth from
Bosnia-Herzegovina, Pilatusbahn rack steam railcar, and more) is the world's
first electric loco. I mistook it for a chair and sat down on it...
In mining, piped compressed air is also used to power rail mounted power
shovels, which have power to their wheels.
- Ben Fisher.
Tony Burzio
>Speaking to my 10-year-old son at the weekend he thinks we saw a
>compressed air loco at the Museum of Science and Technology in Manchester
How about the engine without any drive gear or pistons at the B&O Museum
in Baltimore? It uses a steam rocket for propulsion... :-)
Early NASA steam engine design...
Tony Burzio
AETC
San Diego, CA
Dr. B.J.Fisher
: BTW The only UK compressed air locos I have heard of were 3 at Lackenby
: Steelworks on Teesside. These were 0-4-0ST, stripped to the frames and
: compressers mounted which supplied compressed air to the cylinders. I
: have phots of 2 of them taken about 14 years ago. By then they were OOU
: and all have now been scrapped.
I recall seeing a while back a 19th Century engraving of a very odd
experimental compressed air loco being tested at Woolwich Arsenal, on
standard gauge but pulling 18" gauge stock on dual gauge track. I must have
a hunt and see if I can find the reference.
Outside the UK, French magazine _Voie Etroite_ published a few months ago a
picture of a very odd s.g. 0-4-0 diesel, which appeared to have the chassis
of a steamer, and to drive the cylinders by compressed air, the compressor
being powered by the diesel motor. Either W. Heath Robinson must have been
on a continental jaunt or there was a very good compressor salesman working
on a very stupid engineer...
- Ben Fisher
K.D.Ba...@lut.ac.uk
> [........]
>Outside the UK, French magazine _Voie Etroite_ published a few months ago a
>picture of a very odd s.g. 0-4-0 diesel, which appeared to have the chassis
>of a steamer, and to drive the cylinders by compressed air, the compressor
>being powered by the diesel motor. Either W. Heath Robinson must have been
>on a continental jaunt or there was a very good compressor salesman working
>on a very stupid engineer...
>
>- Ben Fisher
Ha! new Trix H0 model announced this year.
"...- the V3201 (later V120 001) experimental diesel-pneumatic.
[......] used a 6-cylinder diesel engine to power a compressor which
supplied compressed air at high temperature to valves and cylinders
akin to the BR78 4-6-4 steam loco; [....] in service in the Stuttgart
area in 1929."
Text from April 94 Continetal Modeller. From the photo it looks a
bit like a public convenience on top of the BR78 chassis (or from
another point of view, noble and purposefull ).
Keith.
J.P. Allen
I can confirm that the engine in question was in fact designed by
Werner VonBraun for NASA. ;)
********************************************************************
The opinions expressed here are my own and do not reflect the views
of NASA, WinNET or Bart Simpson.
********************************************************************
Uh, yea... I'm licensed and bonded. Here's my drivers license and
I was Bonded out this morning!
********************************************************************
Fredric W. Dabney
catalog full of compressed air locos, mostly for use in mines, but also
for places where sparks would be a hazzard.
Unfortunatly, I don't have the catalog. It was/ may still be owned by an
acquaintance once in the local model railroad club. He was as nutty about
compressed air as others are about steam. Anything air powered.
Dentist's drills, jack hammers, lug wrenches, whatever. It do give a man
pause: Imagine a steam powered lug wrench or dentist's drill. Ahhhhh.
Policies and opinions held by the employer of the undersigned
are not reflected in the views of the undersigned. Or anyone
else in their right mind, for that matter.
Fred Dabney/ KRWG Radio/ New Mexico State University (fda...@nmsu.edu)
"Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained
by stupidity" (unknown)
Al Hall
There are 2 of these locomotives at the Brittania Beach Mining Museum near
Vancouver. They were used in the gassy coal mines in Alberta and British
Columbia to prevent the sparks and flame generated by diesel locomotives.
Also the air is improved by the compressed air in place of Co, Co2 etc from
Diesels. There is one at the mining museum in Bochum, Germany.
D
:B
d
C
C
C
C
diesels. There is one on display at the mining museum in Bochum, Germany.
diesels. There is one on display at the German Mining Museum in B
B
a diesel. Very expensive. One is on display at the Mining Museum in Bochum in
--
Al Hall - a...@hardrock.mining.ubc.ca
Dr. J.A Brink
> Fredric W. Dabney (fda...@nmsu.edu) wrote:
> > A company dear to the hearts of historic diesel fans, Ingersol Rand, had a
> > catalog full of compressed air locos, mostly for use in mines, but also
> > for places where sparks would be a hazzard.
One also got fireless stem locomotives. The locomotive was filled with
superheated water, which released steam and at the same time cooled as
pressure is released. The locomotive could run until the water temperature
approached normal boiling point at atmospheric pressure.
Johan Brink
Roger Mitchell
the late 1930's. The engineers cab was a very bad place to be in the event
of a running gear failure. The book "Train Wrecks" by Reed has a picture
of what happens to the cab when a main rod brakes. It didn't do the engineman
any good either.
Roger Mitchell
President and Master Mechanic
Fort Collins Municipal Railway
Ferroequinologist