Austin,TX - Seattle,WA by AMTRAK: Trip Report.
Chandramouli. V
This is a trip report of a long train journey by AMTRAK which took me
from Austin, TX to Seattle, WA and back. This was my first train
journey in the US. (I am from India, where trains are the primary
means of commuting between cities) The trip was fascinating - I saw
wonderful scenery, met very interesting people, experienced some
memorable incidents, and thoroughly enjoyed my trip. I thought that
I should share my experiences (both good and bad) and hence this trip
report.
Before I begin I would like to mention that the views and opinions
expressed in this report are solely mine -- comments are welcome,
preferably by e-mail, to my address: mo...@emx.cc.utexas.edu
I would particularly appreciate answers for the unanswered questions
in this report, from readers who have the patience to read the whole
thing ! Thanks in advance.
=====================================================================
Route: Austin - Chigaco 1220 miles by TEXAS EAGLE
===== Chicago - Seattle 2210 miles by EMPIRE BUILDER
Seattle - L.A 1389 miles by COAST STARLIGHT
L.A - Austin 1550 miles by SUNSET LIMITED/TEXAS EAGLE
=====================================================================
I began my trip from Austin, TX on March 17. The TEXAS EAGLE was
supposed to leave at 9.25 AM, but after reaching the station (a small
non-descript building in North Lamar St), I was told that the train
is going to be indefinitely late due to the derailment of a freight
train near San Antonio. The train finally pulled into the station
around 12.30 PM and I commenced my long journey.
My first impression was very good -- the ride was very smooth, and
the superliner coach seats were quite comfortable. To my surprise,
I found that the train was nearly full. The announcements made by
the AMTRAK personnel through the public address system was quite
entertaining and useful -- they informed us about the geography we
were passing, and generally kept the passengers in a lively mood.
However, I found the public address system to be quite loud,
especially when the dining car steward made his announcements !
The train passed the Texas hill country and reached the Union Station
in Fort Worth around 6 PM. Dinner was served in the dining car and
I had the vegetarian pasta which was hot and quite good. This was
my first meal in the train, and later I realized that the menu
doesn't have much of a choice for vegetarians -- it was the same
pasta in different forms, all the time ! But it was nice to sit
comfortably in the dining car and enjoy the meal as well as the
passing scenery through the huge glass windows. The service was
very professional and friendly and contrary to what I thought earlier,
it was not that expensive. The "Texas Eagle" doesn't have a sightseer
lounge car -- part of the dining car was used as a lounge. Sleeping
was not much of a problem as the coach seats in the superliner's were
quite spacious and had leg rests. The gentle rocking motion of the
train puts us into sleep quite fast ! The only time I could hear
the train's motion was when during the opening of the vestibule
connecting the coaches -- the coaches had very good sound-proofing.
Early next morning, I woke up to see the beautiful country side
in Missouri near Poplar Bluff. The train was already three hours
late, but no one seemed to bother ! We reached St. Louis around
9.30 AM. AMTRAK stations are in general located right in the
downtown area and this gives us an opportunity to pass right into
the city and see several well known landmarks. We had a full view
of the famous arch, and in fact when we left St. Louis, we passed
right under the arch. (I was wondering what type of precaution
they have in this tunnel, in the event of an earthquake ? -- I believe
St. Louis has a very high probability of a severe earthquake in the
near future) Within couple of minutes, we had the first unobstructed
view of the beautiful Missouri river, and we entered into the "Land of
the Lincoln" -- Illinois. We passed by nice little towns and idyllic
country side on our way to Springfield, Illinois, the state capital.
(Incidentally, the Texas Eagle passes through three state capitals :
-- Austin, Little Rock, and Springfield.) At Springfield we were
informed that the train was nearly 3.5 hours late and is unlikely to
reach Chicago in time for passengers who were planning to take the
California Zephyr/Pioneer. AMTRAK made arrangements for these
passengers to detrain in Bloomington, and take a bus to
Galesburg, where they would board the Pioneer. I was safe since I
had sufficient time to take the Empire Builder. I noticed this
throughout my train journey -- the trains were never on time,
atleast an hour or two late ! When I asked for the reason behind
these notorious delays I was told that AMTRAK shares the tracks with
freight trains, and it was very difficult to coordinate the schedules
with them. This was not a very convincing reply to me, but I found
most of the routes had single lines and I can understand how trains
can get clogged up in such a situation. We passed through Lincoln,
Bloomington, Pontiac, Joliet and reached the 'windy city' at 3.20 PM.
They delayed the departure of the "Empire Builder" by 15 mins for us
to take the connection. The union station in Chicago is very big and
beautiful -- unfortunately, I had very little time to see the station.
I boarded the "Empire Builder", and took a comfortable window side
seat. We left the Union Station in Chicago, and could see the tall
skyscrapers in the downtown area, including the tapering Hancock
building and the famous Sears tower, the world's tallest building.
I was told that on a clear day, we can see four different states and
a huge lake from any of the skyscrapers in Chicago -- a very interesting
observation. Chicago is right on the border between Illinois, Indiana
and Michican. Wisconsin is only a few miles away, and the huge
lake Michican is in the north. This train is named after the
'Empire Builder', James J. Hill, who was instrumental in linking
St. Paul and Seattle with his Great Northern Railway way back in 1890.
The "Empire Builder" follows the 'Soo Line' from Chicago to
Minneapolis/St. Paul, and from there takes the 'Burlington Northern'
line all the way to Spokane, WA and westward to Seattle. We passed by
Glenview and could see the Glenview naval station. We entered Wisconsin
and reached Milwaukee -- it was a clear day but very cold outside.
One nice thing about a train journey is you can see cold places sitting
inside warm compartments -- a great treat for a person from a tropical
place, like me ! The train crossed the Menomonee river near Milwaukee
and the Wisconsin river near Portage and headed towards Wisconsin Dells.
It was getting dark outside and 'Sister Act' was shown on the TV in the
sightseer lounge car. Pretty soon I realized that watching a movie on
the train is not a good idea -- the TV is not placed in a convenient
viewing location, people were moving around and the audio was bad.
The lounge car is a great place to meet people and talk over a cup of
beer or if you prefer (as I do), a coke. A small cafeteria is located
downstairs in the lounge car, and they sell sandwiches, microwavable
food items, soft drinks and if you are over 18, beer and margaritas.
Also it was nice to know that the entire upper level in the lounge car
is a non-smoking area. We were following the Missisippi river all the
way to Minneapolis/St. Paul. It was interesting to note that at this
point, we were exactly mid way between the Equator and the North pole.
It was around 11.30 PM and time to sleep. When I woke up early morning
and looked through the window, I saw the stunning transformation in the
landscape. We had crossed Fargo, North Dakota and were headed towards
Devils Lake. It was an incredible scene with miles and miles of snow
all over. We could almost see the curvature of the earth -- it was
totally flat and plain, not a blade of grass ! It was a bright sunny
day and a wonderful experience to sit in the dining car sipping hot
coffee and see this absolutely marvelous landscape. The train was zipping
past several feet of pristine white snow all around. We reached
Rugby, ND and came to know that this is officially recognized as the
'Geographical Center of North America'. It was a nice little station --
looked like a picture perfect postcard. Minot, ND was our next stop and
since it was a service stop for the train, I got down and walked around
the station. I got into the engine of the train and the driver allowed
us to take photographs inside. I saw huge Burlington Northern freight
trains pass by -- these little towns in the northern most part of US
heavily depend on the railroad for almost everything. The Canadian
state of Saskatchewan is only about 50 miles from here. We could see
many oil wells on our way to Williston. We entered the state of Montana
and the Mountain time zone, crossed the Poplar river, a tributary
of the Missisippi and reached Wolf Point, MT. We passed by Glascow --
an area very rich in dinosaur fossils, and the Bowdoin National Wildlife
Refuge. The train follows the 'Milk River' all the way to Havre, MT.
The station in Havre has a well preserved steam locomotive on display and
was a major attraction for all the European tourists on the train.
After passing Shelby, we reached Cut Bank, MT. This town has the
distinction of having the coldest mid-winter temperatures in the US.
We had our first view of the Rocky Mountains. We could see the Canadian
border (the state of Alberta) just 25 miles to our right. The train had
a steep climb into the Rockies, crossed the 'Two Medicine' river (the
rivers in this part of the country have strange names, and I wonder why ?)
and reached the Glacier National Park station. This is a beautiful
little station right inside the National Park. Glacier National Park
is located in the border between Montana, US and Alberta, Canada.
10,000 feet mountain peaks and more than 50 glaciers surround this
beautiful area. The "Empire Builder" passes right into the National
Park through the Marias Pass. A monument to Roosevelt stands on top of
a summit on the right. As we passed West Glacier, we were told that the
snow fall here averages 100 to 200 inches a year. It was dark outside
as we left Montana and entered Sandpoint, Idaho. When I woke up in the
morning we were in Quincy, Washington. Earlier we had entered
Washington state near Spokane and the train had split into two, one
heading towards Seattle and another towards Portland, Oregon. It was
a beautiful sunny morning (no rains !) and I saw some of the best scenery
as we entered the Northern Cascade mountain range. We were crossing the
Columbia Basin, a fertile area covered with lava which flowed out from
the earth's crust several million years ago. Wenatchee, WA was our
next stop. The train entered the high altitudes of the Cascades and
followed the breathtakingly beautiful Wenatchee river. It was difficult
decision to decide which side of the train to look at. Fortunately, the
sightseer lounge car has huge windows on both sides (and also partly on
the top !), giving us an almost unobstructive view of the whole scenery.
It was splendid. The train was moving very slowly climbing the huge
gradient. We saw the Icicle Canyon on our right. After about an hour,
we entered the Cascade Tunnel, an 8 mile long tunnel under Steven's pass.
This is the longest tunnel in the western hemisphere. When we exited
the tunnel we were treated to an amazing view of the Skykomish river
and ice capped mountains with slopes full of pine and fir trees.
We passed through several bridges across rivers and rivulets and the
scenery was marvelous. In my opinion taking the train in this route is
probably the best way to view the breathtaking beauty of the Cascade
mountains. We reached Everett, WA, the home of Boeing Aerospace.
We could spot several planes, presumably test flights, overhead.
From here, the train just follows the Puget Sound coast of the Pacific
Ocean all the way into Seattle. The best view was obviously on the
right side of the train. We could see tiny islands off the coast and
several ferries. This 15 miles trip along the coast has many horseshoe
curves -- at times, we could see almost the entire train as it followed
the serpentine route along the coastline. The train crossed the Salmon
Bay inlet near Edmonds and we could see the marina. It was around
11 AM, about 30 mins late, when the train inched its way into the
Seattle's King Station after entering Seattle's downtown under a tunnel.
The delay was not that bad considering the distance we traveled, and all
the splendid scenery we saw on our way ! It was a wonderful trip.
After my stay in Seattle for couple of days, I took the Coast Starlight
on the morning of March 26th, on my way to San Jose. From Seattle, the
Coast Starlight takes the southern route along Puget Sound coastline
upto Olympia, WA. Soon after leaving Seattle, we could see the Boeing
air field used for test flights, and the Kent Racetrack. We crossed
the Puyallup river and entered Tacoma, WA. From here we could
see the Puget Sound coast and the Olympic Mountains to our right.
We saw the very impressive Tacoma Narrows bridge (has an interesting
history -- this bridge collapsed soon after its construction, and the
disaster was attributed to 'resonance' -- engineers learnt about the
potential of this well known physical phenomenon after this accident
and it resulted in a thorough redesign of this bridge and bridge
constructions all over the world !)
We left Puget Sound behind and entered Olympia, the capital of
Washington. When we were passing Centralia, a little town about
20 miles from Olympia, we were told that Mt. St. Helens would be
visible on the left side. But we couldn't see it ! Directly to our
left about 40 miles away was the Mt. Ranier National Park, and not
St. Helens ! Winlock was our next little town, which claims to be
the 'Egg Capital' of the world. Wenatchee, I remembered, was the
'Apple Capital' of the world, and soon to be seen, Longview, is the
'Smelt Capital' of the world -- lots of capital towns indeed in this
state of Washington ! As we crossed Toutle river, near Castle Rock,
we could see the volcanic, Mt. St. Helens. It seems this town was
fully covered with volcanic ash during St. Helen's explosion in 1980.
We reached Longview, another little town which experienced the fury
of Mt. St. Helens. Columbia river was flowing to our right and the
state of Oregon was on the other side. We entered Vancouver, WA a
border town between Washington and Oregon and seemed to me it was
like a suburb of Portland on the other side of the Columbia river.
Before entering Portland we had a beautiful view of Mt. Hood.
Since Portland is a meeting point for the Burlington Northern and
Southern Pacific, the train switches railroads here and hence we get
20 mins to get out and walk around the station. When we left
Portland, we entered the Willamette valley. The Cascade Mountains
were on our left and the Coast Range on our right. We do feel the
presence of being in a valley and get a beautiful view of both
mountain ranges. The scenery is great with dense forests, many
waterfalls and lush green mountain slopes. We entered Salem, the
capital of Oregon. From the station we could see the capitol building
and a not-so-pleasant looking statue on top of it. The train entered
Albany, a major lumber center in Oregon. With some difficulty we could
spot the 'Three Sisters' mountain peaks far away. We passed by the
beautiful country side with tiny houses and lush green fields.
Near Springfield, OR, the train started to climb the Cascade mountains
and the terrain becomes totally different. The train passes through
the Willamette National Forest. We saw spectacular views as the
train climbed the Cascades -- it was really very steep. We passed the
Salt Creek Canyon after several hairpin bends. We could see the
Willamette Ski resort and tall Douglas Fir trees lined up all along
the route. We entered the Cascade Summit and reached Chemult.
Several tall peaks were visible from this town all around us.
The Crater Lake to our right, is the remains of the one of the
volcanic mountain that erupted long ago. From here the train followed
the Willamson river. We reached Klamath Falls after sunset and the
views of the tall peaks under moonlight was dramatic. Early morning the
next day, the train reached Sacramento, the capital of California.
At Richmond and Berkeley the train joins the BART metro system of
San Fransisco. After we left Richmond, we could see the beautiful
Golden Gate Bridge and the San Fransisco skyline. From Oakland all
the way to San Jose it was like traveling inside a city. All the little
towns on the way seemed like suburbs of a huge metropolis. The train
reached San Jose at 12.00 noon, almost 2.5 hours late ! I got down
in San Jose to meet few of my friends and took the same train the
next day enroute to L.A. From San Jose the train enters the Santa Clara
valley. Near Watsonville, we get a beautiful view of the rolling green
hills in the Santa Cruz mountain range -- the whole place looks like
a greatly magnified golf course ! Salinas, CA is the place to be for
vegetarians -- it seems they grow the largest variety of vegetables
in the US. The train follows the Salinas river and we passed the
nice little town of San Miguel and entered Santa Margarita.
From here the train climbed upwards. We saw spectacular views of the
San Lucia Mountains and the famous Route 101 follows the railroad tracks.
Before the train enters San Luis Obispo, it passed through two deep
horseshoe curves. Within few minutes after leaving San Luis Obispo,
I could get the first full view of the Pacific Ocean. From here all
the way to L.A, (Ventura), we get an absolutely marvelous view of
the Pacific Ocean and the coastline. Route 101 is on our left side, so
the railroad tracks are the closest to the Ocean. I cannot think of
any other way to experience this beautiful coastline, than to take the
train ! It was a wonderful experience to sit in front of the window
in the sightseer lounge on a clear sunny evening and watch the waves
gush almost into the compartments ! Then an amazing thing happened --
one of the train attendant told us she spotted a whale ! In spite of
our wide open prying eyes (and several, complemented with binoculars !),
we couldn't see anything -- until we saw a huge column of water rise
right in front of us like a geyser ! And there it was, a huge whale
presumably on its long migratory voyage from Southern California
to Alaska. The train stopped for several minutes and we could see the
whale jump up and down and sprout water above. It was a wonderful
and memorable sight. The train attendants sat with us in the lounge
car and explained everything. We passed by the Vandenburg Air Force
base and could see an abandoned Space Shuttle launch pad. The Channel
Islands were visible far away into the ocean. As we entered Point
Conception we saw the Santa Ynez Mountains to our left. This amazing
view of grazing lands high above the surf is something indescribable
and absolutely marvelous !! We could see few off shore drilling rigs
as we entered the Santa Barbara Channel. It was around 4.30 when we
reached Santa Barbara. Thanks to one of the train attendant's tip,
we saw a huge fig tree in the Santa Barbara station -- apparently it
is the biggest fig tree in the US -- one of the most beautifully
formed trees I have ever seen ! The train left Santa Barbara and
passed by the Andree Clark Bird Refuge and the famous Santa Barbara
Zoological gardens. When we passed the Bates beach we were advised to
keep our eyes wide-open or closed, as we prefer, as there were many
bathers with little or no clothes ! The view of the sunset on the
Pacific Coast was remarkable from the train. We crossed the Ventura
river and entered the Simi Valley formed by the Santa Sussanna
Mountains and Simi hills. As we left the San Fernando valley and
entered the Los Angeles county, we could see the huge L.A. metropolis
at a distance. We reached L.A at 8.30 PM -- an hour late -- again,
not too bad by AMTRAK standards ! The L.A union station was
beautiful -- the lobby had several photographs displaying the history
of the station and plans for future expansion.
I boarded the Sunset Limited in L.A Union Station at 10.50 PM. Even
though this train was supposed to be a 'superliner', the coach that
I was assigned was not as good as the earlier ones -- the overhead
baggage rack was very small and couldn't hold even a briefcase. The
seats were quite comfortable though. I woke the next day morning to
find myself in Phoenix, Arizona. The desert terrain of Arizona was
totally different. It was cold and dry in Phoenix. When I was having
my breakfast in the dining car, I came to know that this was a "special"
trip for this train -- the "Sunset Limited" was being extended from
New Orleans to Miami, making this the longest train route in this
continent, and this trip was the first one to make all the way to
Miami ! (they were scheduled to inaugurate this train on April 4th)
Actually, the train splits into two in San Antonio -- the Sunset Limited
goes to New Orleans/Miami and the Texas Eagle to Chicago.
It was nice to be one of the first person on this 'longest-distance'
train and AMTRAK gave us free souvenirs ! We passed Tucson and
Benson, AZ around noon and entered New Mexico. This region is so dry
that the airline companies around the world find this region most
suitable to keep their planes for a long time when they are not in
operation. We could literally see hundreds and hundreds of planes,
both military and commercial, parked right in the open desert (not in
hangars !) I was wondering what happens to the electronics inside
the plane during the summer months when the temperature in the desert
soars ? When we passed Lordsburg in New Mexico, our train was very
close to the White Sands National Monument and the Alamogordo, where
the first atomic bomb was tested. (actually I remembered reading
somewhere that the US military ran test flights near the Salton Sea
in California to practice dropping the atomic weapon -- the train
passes very close to the Salton Sea, before reaching Yuma, AZ)
The desert terrain of New Mexico has its own beauty and it has to be
seen to be appreciated. We crossed the Rio Grande river before
entering El Paso, Texas. On the other side of the train we could see
white pillars planted all along signifying the border between US and
Mexico. Just before we entered El Paso, we had a view of the city of
Ciudad-Juarez, in Mexico. It was a stunning contrast to see the
poverty on the other side of the border compared to the wealth in the US.
(is the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) going to change
this ? -- if so, I hope it does so by improving the standard of living
in Ciudad and not by reducing El Paso to look like Ciudad !)
From El Paso, the train followed the Rio Grande river for a while and
then entered the Davis Mountain range. It was dark -- sitting in the
lounge car we could see innumerable stars on this clear dark night.
After we finished our dinner, we were about to return to our seats
when they announced on the public address system that there was a
huge fire spread over several miles outside the town of Alpine.
(Alpine is very near Fort Davis (where UT-Austin has its McDonald
Observatory) and the Big Bend National Park) To prevent the smoke
from entering into the train through the airconditioning system, the
train attendants locked up all the vestibule doors and requested
people in the lounge car to stay there till we passed the fire.
When we left Alpine, the driver obtained permission to cross the fire
safely as it was not very close to the railroad tracks. It was a
fascinating sight to see red flames spread over a several miles
(about 25 miles) on a dark night. Some of them spewed huge flames
into the sky and the interesting thing was that the fire was not
contiguous -- it was sparsely spread over a wide area. No one explained
the cause of the fire, and we all presumed it was a normal forest/bush
fire. (I have passed through this region before when I visited the
Big Bend National Park, and noticed several oil wells, most of them
operational -- I was wondering if the fire was caused by one of these
oil wells ?) Surprisingly, I didn't find any mention of this fire in
the newspaper and radio news. The train reached San Antonio the next
day morning and from there to the 'solid-state' capital city, Austin,
at 10.00 AM -- again, about 45 mins late !
This was an exciting and wonderful trip for me. Since this was my first
train ride in the US, I boarded the train with several questions and
tried to find the answers myself. Traveling by train is one of the
best ways to see the country. I notice that train travel is not very
popular in the US (even though I found most of the trains I took were
nearly full). I can understand that traveling by train takes lot of
time compared to flying but majority of Americans prefer to fly or drive,
even while on vacation ! (if they travel once by train, they will know
that it is so relaxing !) By proper advertisement and being more
competitive, AMTRAK can capture this huge market and be profitable even
without federal subsidy !
First of all, they should try to maintain schedules and be punctual.
I met several Europeans on the train and they were bragging about
how Eurail trains are punctual. I have myself traveled in Japan,
by train and noticed that they are incredibly punctual. India has one
of the largest railroad networks in the world, and the trains generally
meet the schedules in spite of poor coordination (even the most
prestigious long distance trains in India don't have wireless
communication facilities). Second, AMTRAK fares are not very competitive
compared to the airlines -- many times it is cheaper to fly than take
the train. The AMTRAK reservation clerks (the ones who answer
1-800-USA-RAIL) should be educated more about the US railroad system.
Some of them didn't even know simple questions like, what are the states
through which the "Empire Builder" will pass through ? I am not trying
to generalize here, but atleast the one I spoke to didn't have a clue !
Train stations in the US, particularly in small towns can at best be
classified as 'sheds' to keep out the wind chill. This is in total
contrary to trains in India or in Japan where they brim with activity.
One another thing I noticed is the presence of huge 'junk car lots'
beside the tracks in most cities. They are an ugly sight (one Belgian
lady traveling with me to Oakland, asked me: "why can't the Americans
create a machine to pulverize these junk cars into fine powder and
either recycle or pack them in boxes and bury them out-of-sight,
underground ? -- Good question !)
Now for some positive things about AMTRAK: I found the train personnel
to be very friendly, informative and they made a conscious attempt to
help everyone (in spite of being employees of the federal govt !).
Hat's off to them ! The 'route guides' given to us were well written
and very informative particularly for curious passengers trying to know
more about what's in store on the way.
========================== END OF THE REPORT ===========================
Chandramouli. mo...@emx.cc.utexas.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Microelectronics Research Center in the University of Texas at Austin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Best
saved it for later! Thanks for taking the time and effort to type it in!
I used to travel on trains (Erie-Lackawanna, Binghamton to Chicago) as
a kid, and the tone of your story is right on! What a way to travel.
"Mothers with their babes asleep,
rockin' to the gentle beat,
and the rhythm of the rails is all they feel."
Arlo sure knew what he was talking about - and you captured it here.
Thanks again!
Bill Gripp
Okay, now you started me. Can someone please post the words to CITY OF
NEW ORLEANS? Thanks.
Bill
G. Patrick Molloy
> Now for some positive things about AMTRAK: I found the train personnel
> to be very friendly, informative and they made a conscious attempt to
> help everyone (in spite of being employees of the federal govt !).
This is a common misconception. Amtrak employees are not federal
employees (civil servants). Amtrak is a federally subsidized corporation,
not a branch of the government.
G. Patrick Molloy
Huntsville, Alabama
Toby . Hughes
>Okay, now you started me. Can someone please post the words to CITY OF
>NEW ORLEANS? Thanks.
CITY OF NEW ORLEANS
(Steve Goodman)
Ridin' on the City of New Orleans,
Illinois Central, Monday mornin' rail,
Fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders,
Three conductors, twenty-five sacks of mail.
All along the southbound odyssey
The train pulls out at Kankakee,
Rolls along past houses, farms and fields.
Passin' trains that have no name,
Freight yards full of old black men,
And the graveyards of the rusted automobiles.
Good mornin', America, how are ya?
Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
I'm the train called the City of New Orleans;
I'll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.
Dealin' card games with the old men in the club car,
Penny a point, ain't no one keepin' score.
Pass the paper bag that holds the bottle;
Feel the wheels a' rumblin' neath the floor.
And the sons of Pullman porters
And the sons of engineers
Ride their fathers' magic carpet made of steel,
Mothers with their babes asleeep
Rockin' to the gentle beat,
And the rhythm of the rails is all they feel.
Good mornin' ....etc.
Nighttime on the City of New Orleans,
Changin' cars in Memphis, Tennessee.
Halfway home, we'll be there by mornin',
Through the Mississippi darkness, rollin' down to the sea.
But all the towns and people seem
To fade into a bad dream,
And the steel rails still ain't heard the news.
The conductor sings his song again,
'The passengers will please refrain...'
This train's got the disappearin' railroad blues.
Good night, America, how are you?
Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
I'm the train called the City of New Orleans;
I'll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.
TH
Garth G. Groff
Second misconception: employees of the Federal Government
are not by nature rude or unhelpful. I was a member of
the United States Coast Guard for eight years. While there
were rude, lazy members of that organization, in general
most were dedicated to public service (some who worked for
me and weren't got a verbal kick in the pants). I dealt
with people from many other government organizations such
as Public Health, the Post Office, GSA, and the other
armed forces. Generally the people were excellent to work
with. As a civilian, I have usually had similar experiences.
The worst part about the government is that it is so complex
the people you are dealing with often don't know where to
send you for more information if the problem you have is
beyond their ability or area of responsibility.
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
gg...@poe.acc.virginia.EDU Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
Amateur Radio Club
With regards to the mystery DuPont cars, I was wandering through the Microscale
decal catalog and came across a decal set that explains what it is.
It is a tank training car with a classroom (reefer) and I presume the caboose
is for the instructors' accomodations (not shown in the set). The tank car
has 8 or 10 different domes on the top and about the same number of different
outlets on the bottom.
If you're interested, I believe the set is MC-4552 or 4052 (minical set).
Craig Thomasson
uum...@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Dan Schatz
>>Arlo sure knew what he was talking about - and you captured it here.
I missed the previous posts, but for the record, "City of New Orleans" was
written by the late Steve Goodman.
>Okay, now you started me. Can someone please post the words to CITY OF
>NEW ORLEANS? Thanks.
From memory...
City of New Orleans
by Steve Goodman
Ridin' on the City of New Orleans
Illinois Central, Monday morning rail.
Fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders
Three conductors, twenty-five sacks of mail
All around the south bound oddesey,
The train pulls out of Kankakee
Rolls along past houses, farms and fields,
Passin' trains that have no name,
Freight yards, full of old black men
And the graveyard of a rustsed automobile
CHORUS:
Good morning, America, how are you?
Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans
And I'll be gone five hundred miles 'fore the day is done.
Playin' card games with the old men in the club car
Penny a point, ain't no one keepin' score.
Pass the paper bag that holds the bottle,
Feel the wheels rumblin' 'neath the floor
And the sons of Pullman porters
And the sons of engineers
Rider their fathers' magic carpets made of steel
Mothers with their babies sweet
Rockin' to the gentle beat
And the ryhthm of the rails is all they hear.
CHORUS
Nighttime on the City of New Orleans
Changin' cars in Memphis, Tennessee.
Halfway home; we'll be there by morning
Through the Mississippi darkness, rollin' down to the sea.
And all the towns and people seem
To fade into a bad dream
And the steel rail still ain't heard the news.
The conductor sings his song again,
"The passengers will please refrain."
This train got the dissappearin' railroad blues.
CHORUS (Good night America...)
(repeat chorus)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Dan Schatz |e-mail: |snail-mail | _____ |
| |dsc...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|Po Box 8270 | | \ |
| | |Austin, TX 78713 | | \ |
| | | | | \ |
|============================================================| |======( |
|"Dan, Dan, the Autoharp Man" |"Folking my way to the top" | |======) |
|"If I can't revolt, I don't want to be part of your dance." | |______( |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ardie Mack
>>I used to travel on trains (Erie-Lackawanna, Binghamton to Chicago) as
>>a kid, and the tone of your story is right on! What a way to travel.
>>
>> "Mothers with their babes asleep,
>> rockin' to the gentle beat,
>> and the rhythm of the rails is all they feel."
>>
>>Arlo sure knew what he was talking about - and you captured it here.
>
heard it. "The City of New Orleans" was written by the lat Steve Goodman,
who, as a University of Illinois student, routinely took that train between
Chicago and Champaign.
Try to get hold of a copy of Steve Goodman's uncensored version. HE
sings it RIGHT! (Passing towns that have no name,
and freightyards full of old, black men,
and the graveyards of rusted automobiles.)
John Lupton
>a kid, and the tone of your story is right on! What a way to travel.
> "Mothers with their babes asleep,
> rockin' to the gentle beat,
> and the rhythm of the rails is all they feel."
>Arlo sure knew what he was talking about - and you captured it here.
"City of New Orleans"; Steve Goodman (R.I.P. |-( ) is generally credited
with being the sole writer of the tune, HOWEVER... John Denver claims to
have cowritten the song with Goodman one night in a hotel; he recorded it
on his "Aerie" album (ca.1972), and credits himself and Goodman on the
album as writers. A friend of mine who knows a lot about Goodman says he
was very liberal about sharing credit with other people who made minimal
contributions to songs he had essentially written himself. I don't think
Denver would make the claim if there wasn't some basis for it, but most
people consider it a Goodman song.
_____________________________________________________________________________
John Lupton, LAN Specialist |Part-Time Country/Bluegrass/Old-Time DJ
SAS Communications & Networking |"Rural Free Delivery"
University of Pennsylvania |WVUD-FM 91.3 Newark, Delaware
jlu...@mail.sas.upenn.edu |Listener-Supported, Non-Commercial Radio
_________________________________|___________________________________________
"There stands the glass\ That will ease all my pain,
Fill it up to the rim\ It's my first one today" Webb Pierce
_____________________________________________________________________________
Ardie Mack
>
> CITY OF NEW ORLEANS
> (Steve Goodman)
>
> Ridin' on the City of New Orleans,
> Illinois Central, Monday mornin' rail,
> Fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders,
> Three conductors, twenty-five sacks of mail.
>
> All along the southbound odyssey
> The train pulls out at Kankakee,
> Rolls along past houses, farms and fields.
> Passin' trains that have no name,
That should be "Passin' TOWNS that have no name. Arlo got it wrong.
Toby . Hughes
No, not wrong, just different. I was quoting Arlo's version. In his personal
appearances Steve Goodman used to tell a story about City of New Orleans,
perhaps apocryphal, perhaps not, that in a cafe in Chicago, at a time
of his (Goodman's) being down and out, he sold the rights to the song to his
friend Arlo for 50 bucks. If so, I guess Arlo could sing it any way he
wanted to.
TH
Gary Martin
Arlo? ARlo?? ARLO???!!! AAARRRRRGGHH! Arlo knew a good song when he
heard it. "The City of New Orleans" was written by the lat Steve Goodman,
who, as a University of Illinois student, routinely took that train between
Chicago and Champaign.
Arlo tells the story of how he met Goodman and heard "City of New Orleans"
(on the Tribute to Steve Goodman album, I think). They were in a bar,
and Goodman came up and said "Can I sing you this song I wrote?" Arlo
said "Buy me a beer and I'll listen to anything for as long as the beer
lasts." (The "quotes" are paraphrases from my dim memory of the last
time I heard the album, which must be 5 or 6 years ago, now.)
--
Gary A. Martin, Assistant Professor of Mathematics, UMass Dartmouth
Mar...@cis.umassd.edu
Scott E. Preece
| > "Mothers with their babes asleep,
| > rockin' to the gentle beat,
| > and the rhythm of the rails is all they feel."
| >
| >Arlo sure knew what he was talking about - and you captured it here.
---
It was, of course, Steve Goodman who knew what he was talking about...
--
scott preece
motorola/mcg urbana design center 1101 e. university, urbana, il 61801
phone: 217-384-8589 fax: 217-384-8550
internet mail: pre...@urbana.mcd.mot.com
Chris Best
----------
It was, of course, Arlo Guthrie who sang it to me. I'm guessing he agreed
with the sentiments, or he probably wouldn't have sung it. So, in a sense,
it WAS Arlo doing the "talking".
I never said Arlo wrote it, so relax everybody. It DOES sound that way,
though...
Steve Goldfield
so why not?
I once heard an interview with Arlo in which he was asked
how he found the song, "City of New Orleans."
Arlo explained that people were always coming up to him
with songs and that he had learned to rebuff them quickly.
So when this guy approached him in a bar, Arlo told him
he had the time it would take Arlo to finish his beer.
It was Steve Goodman, and he sang "City of New Orleans."
I think Arlo commented that it was one of the best beers
he'd ever had.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Steve Goldfield :<{ {>: s...@hera.berkeley.edu
University of California at Berkeley Richmond Field Station
Bill Gripp
>In article <ardie.275...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ar...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Ardie Mack) writes:
>>> CITY OF NEW ORLEANS
>>> (Steve Goodman)
>>>
>>> Passin' trains that have no name,
>>
>>That should be "Passin' TOWNS that have no name. Arlo got it wrong.
>
>No, not wrong, just different. I was quoting Arlo's version. In his personal
>appearances Steve Goodman used to tell a story about City of New Orleans,
>perhaps apocryphal, perhaps not, that in a cafe in Chicago, at a time
>of his (Goodman's) being down and out, he sold the rights to the song to his
>friend Arlo for 50 bucks. If so, I guess Arlo could sing it any way he
>wanted to.
Which ever is "correct", TRAINS makes more sense than TOWNS since towns
normally have names while many/most trains don't. No flames please, I'm
not saying that it has to make sense, just that one makes more than the
other. =B^)
Christopher C. Finger
Thanks for posting the City of New Orleans lyrics. The Steve Goodman
that wrote it wouldn't be the same as "My friend Steve Goodman wrote
this song and he said it was the perfect country and western song. I
wrote him back a letter and said it was *not* the perfect country and
western song because..." of Never Called Me By My Name Fame, would it?
Also, at least when Willie did CoNO, he pronoucned New Orleans correctly
(ie New Or'lins) whereas MCC uses the Yankee pronunciation (New
Or-leens') in Down At The Twist And Shout. Can anyone think of other
songs about New Orleans and how the singers pronounce it?
Chris
Toby . Hughes
>
>Thanks for posting the City of New Orleans lyrics. The Steve Goodman
>that wrote it wouldn't be the same as "My friend Steve Goodman wrote
>this song and he said it was the perfect country and western song. I
>wrote him back a letter and said it was *not* the perfect country and
>western song because..." of Never Called Me By My Name Fame, would it?
>
Same guy.
>Also, at least when Willie did CoNO, he pronoucned New Orleans correctly
>(ie New Or'lins) whereas MCC uses the Yankee pronunciation (New
>Or-leens') in Down At The Twist And Shout. Can anyone think of other
>songs about New Orleans and how the singers pronounce it?
>
>Chris
>
MCC used the "Yankee" version because it was part of the rhyme. Didn't need
it in City of New Orleans. The old jazz classic "Way Down Yonder in New
Orleans" does the same to rhyme with "dreams" and "queens." Songwriter's
prerogative. Anyone who has ever spend any time in the Crescent City knows
that the true and correct pronunciation is "Norlins."
TH
Bill Gripp
>> It was, of course, Steve Goodman who knew what he was talking about...
>It was, of course, Arlo Guthrie who sang it to me. I'm guessing he agreed
>with the sentiments, or he probably wouldn't have sung it. So, in a sense,
>it WAS Arlo doing the "talking".
IMNHO, I like Johnny Cash's version the best myself. =B^)
robert john williams
>In article <1993Apr6.2...@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> thu...@lonestar.utsa.edu (Toby . Hughes) writes:
>>>> CITY OF NEW ORLEANS
>>>> (Steve Goodman)
>>>> Passin' trains that have no name,
>>>That should be "Passin' TOWNS that have no name. Arlo got it wrong.
>>No, not wrong, just different. I was quoting Arlo's version.
>normally have names while many/most trains don't. No flames please, I'm
>not saying that it has to make sense, just that one makes more than the
>other. =B^)
>
the riders on the train, most towns that you don't stop at are just nameless
groups of buildings. I sing it either way, depending on my mood, but heard
Steve Goodman's version first.
Random misfirings of my grey matter,
Bob Williams (rj...@midway.uchicago.edu)
William Mayne
>
>that wrote it wouldn't be the same as "My friend Steve Goodman wrote
>this song and he said it was the perfect country and western song. I
>wrote him back a letter and said it was *not* the perfect country and
>western song because..." of Never Called Me By My Name Fame, would it?
Certainly. Why not? Good to see another David Alan Coe fan on the network.
Is there a better or more truthful (not necessarily the same) version of
the story behind "You Don't Have to Call Me Darlin'" than the one David
Alan Coe tells? Another great Steve Goodman song was the one about the
Chicago Cubs fans. How about the lyrics of that?`
Bill Mayne
Robert Coe
> >>> Passin' trains that have no name,
> >>
> >>That should be "Passin' TOWNS that have no name. Arlo got it wrong.
> >
> >No, not wrong, just different. I was quoting Arlo's version. ...
>
> Which ever is "correct", TRAINS makes more sense than TOWNS since towns
> normally have names while many/most trains don't. No flames please, I'm
> not saying that it has to make sense, just that one makes more than the
> other. =B^)
I don't know why I'm jumping into this, but.... :^)
The whole point of the song is the sad state of passenger service in the
final pre-Amtrak days. My impression is that on most RRs, the named trains
were the last to go. I wouldn't be surprised if at the time referred to in
the song, the "City of N.O." (and possibly the "Panama Limited", although I
think it vanished earlier) was the last passenger service on that route.
Unless the song refers to freight trains (unlikely, IMHO), "towns" makes
more sense.
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Robert Coe
> MCC used the "Yankee" version because it was part of the rhyme. ...
> Anyone who has ever spend any time in the Crescent City knows that the
> true and correct pronunciation is "Norlins."
My recollection is that in other parts of Louisiana ("Lou Z. Anna") they
tend to pronounce it "nWALLunz". Probably this is another case like
"Newfoundland": nobody but a native ever gets it right. :^)
John Lupton
Article: 8881 of rec.music.country.western
Path: netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!ringer!lonestar.utsa.edu!thughes
From: thu...@lonestar.utsa.edu (Toby . Hughes)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,rec.music.country.western,rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: CITY OF NEW ORLEANS (Was: Re: Austin,TX - Seattle,WA by AMTRAK: Trip Report.)
Message-ID: <1993Apr7.2...@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>
Date: 7 Apr 93 22:03:10 GMT
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>>Also, at least when Willie did CoNO, he pronoucned New Orleans correctly
>>(ie New Or'lins) whereas MCC uses the Yankee pronunciation (New
>>Or-leens') in Down At The Twist And Shout. Can anyone think of other
>>songs about New Orleans and how the singers pronounce it?
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>>MCC used the "Yankee" version because it was part of the rhyme. Didn't
>>>need
>>>it in City of New Orleans. The old jazz classic "Way Down Yonder in New
>>>Orleans" does the same to rhyme with "dreams" and "queens." Songwriter's
>>>prerogative. Anyone who has ever spend any time in the Crescent City knows
>>>that the true and correct pronunciation is "Norlins."
My mother, who was raised much of her early life in N.O., has always
pronounced it "New AWL-yuns". BTW, her grandfather was a conductor on the
Illinois Central in Mississippi...I don't know if "The City of New
Orleans" was running around the turn of the century, or if it was, whether
or not he was ever the conductor on that train. From the stories my mom
heard him tell when she was a kid, being a conductor in those days was not
an easy job...somewhat akin to being a bouncer in the neighborhood bar,
what with all the drunks and hobos trying to catch a free ride.
Maurice Maes
| ||| Passin' trains that have no name,
| ||
| ||That should be "Passin' TOWNS that have no name. Arlo got it wrong.
| |
| |No, not wrong, just different. I was quoting Arlo's version. ...
|
| Which ever is "correct", TRAINS makes more sense than TOWNS since towns
| normally have names while many/most trains don't. No flames please, I'm
| not saying that it has to make sense, just that one makes more than the
| other. =B^)
Just the opposite!!!
Which ever is "correct", *TOWNS* makes more sense than *TRAINS* since towns
normally have names while many/most trains don't.
It makes more sense to talk about
"Men that have no legs" than about
"Cars that have no legs". etc...
If a town has no name, that's something interesting and worthwhile telling.
If you say that a train has no name, people think "well of course not".
--
+---------------------+
| Maurice Maes |
| ma...@prl.philips.nl |
+---------------------+
Joseph C Fineman
>MCC used the "Yankee" version because it was part of the rhyme. Didn't need
>it in City of New Orleans.
Indeed, in CoNO it would be metrically impossible. I *suspect*
(knowing nothing about the subject) that songwriters since time
immemorial have taken advantage of the existence of two pronunciations
in order to fit their rhyme & meter. E.g., in "House of the Rising
Sun" "New Orleans" is rhymed with "jeans".
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
US3...@vm.cc.latech.edu
*************** CORRECT PRONUNCIATION OF NEW ORLEANS *******************
>thu...@lonestar.utsa.edu (Toby . Hughes) writes:
>> MCC used the "Yankee" version because it was part of the rhyme. ...
>> Anyone who has ever spend any time in the Crescent City knows that the
>> true and correct pronunciation is "Norlins."
Robert Coe <b...@1776.COM> writes:
>My recollection is that in other parts of Louisiana ("Lou Z. Anna") they
>tend to pronounce it "nWALLunz". Probably this is another case like
>"Newfoundland": nobody but a native ever gets it right. :^)
From a native, the correct pronunciation of New Orleans is........
oops, there is no one correct
pronunciation of New Orleans.
That's the neat part about New Orleans and the state. There are lots of
different cultures here--if you will allow me--a veritable gumbo of language.
New Orlins, Nawlins, New Orleens, nwalins, New Or-lee-uns--they're all right.
Depends on which street corner you're standing on.
mikejames (US3...@VM.CC.LATECH.EDU)
John Mosbarger
DuPont must be running at least 2 sets of these cars. I saw the
Microscale set, and the #'s were 912A for the tankcar and 912B for the
reefer. The set I saw was numbered: 913A - tankcar, 913B - reefer, and
913C - caboose. BTW, the cars were white with approx. the bottom third
in black, with a 3" or 4" red separator stripe.
John
--
John Mosbarger * Do not condemn the judgement of others
HP McMinnville, OR * because they differ from your own. You
jo...@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com * may both be wrong.
* --Dandemis
Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879
> MCC used the "Yankee" version because it was part of the rhyme.
Given that the song was written in Illinois, and given that the other town
names mentioned are on the northern half of the train's route, a northern
pronounciation is natural.
I still remember the near incomprehensible sound of the Chicago Union
Station PA system in early 1970's, with the echoing almost musical and
almost poetic refrain:
All Aboard for Kankakee, Paxton, Rantoul, Champaign, Tuscola, Mattoon,
Effingham, Centralia, Carbondale, Cairo ...
Of course, this was Amtrak's Panama Limited, after the City of New Orleans
had been discontinued (or renamed, depending on your view of the history).
The first few times I rode it, they stopped just about everywhere, but
within two years, they'd cut out most of the small towns. Of course,
there were plenty of smaller towns with no name between the named stops,
even back then.
The other thing worth noting about pronounciation was that the town names
as announced by the railroad employees were in a standardized almost
musical style that frequently differed from the local pronounciation.
The example of Kankakee comes to mind. To most folks in the area, it was
pronounced roughly as kaing-keke, with only a slight emphasis on the first
half. The railroad employees, however, called it Cann-keykey, with a long
drawn out n on the Can, starting low and rising as it was drawn out,
followed by a low fast keykey. Rantoul got the same treatment, complete
with rising drawn out n.
Doug Jones
jo...@cs.uiowa.edu
Miriam Organic
>
>I missed the previous posts, but for the record, "City of New Orleans" was
>written by the late Steve Goodman.
It is good to see that people remember Steve Goodman.
Miriam
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
jlu...@mail.sas.upenn.edu (John Lupton) writes, in part:
>
>My mother, who was raised much of her early life in N.O., has always
>pronounced it "New AWL-yuns". BTW, her grandfather was a conductor on the
>Illinois Central in Mississippi...I don't know if "The City of New
>Orleans" was running around the turn of the century, or if it was, whether
>or not he was ever the conductor on that train. From the stories my mom
>heard him tell when she was a kid, being a conductor in those days was not
>an easy job...somewhat akin to being a bouncer in the neighborhood bar,
>what with all the drunks and hobos trying to catch a free ride.
>_____________________________________________________________________________
late 40s). The Illinois Central put it into service with much hoopla as a
daytime coach "streamliner" to supplement the overnight all-Pullman
"Panama Limited". I believe it was at first equipped with a fixed-consist
Diesel streamlined articulated train like the Zephyrs and the "Flying Yankee"
but I'm not certain of that. In any case, it was a new train designed to
make it possible to travel in coach from Chi to NOL in a single day for the
first time. By the time I rode it in the mid 60s, it had descended to the
state of the typical coach train of the era - not real bad, but definitely
not "luxury" service. Was still fast, though, then especially on the
racetrack between Chicago and Carbondale. The Goodman/Guthrie song, which
I also include in my repertoire, certainly captures the "look and feel"
of the 1960s passenger train, and that's probably why I love it. Brings
back all sorts of memories good and bad of the days before Amfleet and
Superliners when train riding was much more varied and "flavorful".
Len Bachelder Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp. Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730 Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00...@mitre.org> <- NOTE Address change!
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
- Charles Wesley
Peter Olmsted
>bi...@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) writes:
>
>| ||| Passin' trains that have no name,
>| ||
>| ||That should be "Passin' TOWNS that have no name. Arlo got it wrong.
>| |
>| |No, not wrong, just different. I was quoting Arlo's version. ...
>|
>| Which ever is "correct", TRAINS makes more sense than TOWNS since towns
>| normally have names while many/most trains don't. No flames please, I'm
>
>normally have names while many/most trains don't.
>
isn't the point of the song (among others) to lament the passing of the
noble trains, such as the CONO, that have names? Hence the act of
passing trains that have no names serves to drive home the sad fact that
there are no longer any other such trains.....a way of life has passed
into history. Flames?
Peter Olmsted
pdo...@erenj.com
David Bader
In article <1993Apr8.1...@prl.philips.nl>, ma...@prl.philips.nl (Maurice Maes) writes:
>Just the opposite!!!
>
>Which ever is "correct", *TOWNS* makes more sense than *TRAINS* since towns
>normally have names while many/most trains don't.
Wait a second! Isn't "City of New Orleans" not just the name of this
amazing Steve Goodman song, but ALSO the name of a train?!!!!
-david
Oblig beg: anyone else have live Steve Goodman tapes?? :)
Also looking for Steve and Harry Chapin or Steve and Arlo....
Bill Gripp
>bi...@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) writes:
>| Which ever is "correct", TRAINS makes more sense than TOWNS since towns
>| normally have names while many/most trains don't. No flames please, I'm
>| not saying that it has to make sense, just that one makes more than the
>| other. =B^)
>Just the opposite!!!
>Which ever is "correct", *TOWNS* makes more sense than *TRAINS* since towns
>normally have names while many/most trains don't.
>It makes more sense to talk about
>"Men that have no legs" than about
>"Cars that have no legs". etc...
Not a valid analogy since no cars (that I know of) have legs, while in
the heyday of railroading many trains did have names. In fact some
freight trains have names, most have symbols which can be thought of as
pseudo-names.
>If a town has no name, that's something interesting and worthwhile telling.
>If you say that a train has no name, people think "well of course not".
Well, that's A TOWN, the song says TOWNS/TRAINS, pleural. So which ever
it is, it is not something unique but rather common place in the context
of the song. The implication is the CofNO is a train with a name, hence
something extra special on the IC, not your run of the mill freight or
commuter train which has no name, just a number or symbol.
Jon Roma
>I still remember the near incomprehensible sound of the Chicago Union
>Station PA system in early 1970's, with the echoing almost musical and
>almost poetic refrain:
> All Aboard for Kankakee, Paxton, Rantoul, Champaign, Tuscola, Mattoon,
> Effingham, Centralia, Carbondale, Cairo ...
>Of course, this was Amtrak's Panama Limited, after the City of New Orleans
>had been discontinued (or renamed, depending on your view of the history).
>The first few times I rode it, they stopped just about everywhere, but
>within two years, they'd cut out most of the small towns. Of course,
>there were plenty of smaller towns with no name between the named stops,
>even back then.
How certain are you that your recollection is from the Amtrak era? To my
knowledge, no Amtrak train ever made a regular stop at either Paxton or
Tuscola; in fact, my recollection is that these stops were dropped by
IC in the late sixties. The May 1, 1971 Amtrak timetable does not list
either station but lists the others you mentioned, with the addition of
Du Quoin. Could you be recollecting a pre-Amtrak train announcement
from the old Central Station?
--
Jon Roma
Computing and Communications Services Office,
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Internet: ro...@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!roma
Jon Roma
>The "City of New Orleans" was "created" in the 1950s (possibly
>late 40s). The Illinois Central put it into service with much hoopla as a
>daytime coach "streamliner" to supplement the overnight all-Pullman
>"Panama Limited". I believe it was at first equipped with a fixed-consist
>Diesel streamlined articulated train like the Zephyrs and the "Flying Yankee"
>but I'm not certain of that.
You're right about the _City of New Orleans_ being a post-war train; it
began service in 1947. You recall correctly that IC operated a fixed-
consist streamliner before World War II but this was the _City of Miami_
train, a seven car all-coach train introduced December 18, 1940. This
train ran Chicago-Miami every third day. Sleepers were introduced to
this train in 1947 and a new consist was placed in service in 1950.
Another notable pre-war IC streamliner was the Chicago-St. Louis
_Green Diamond_, which was a five-car articulated train with a
locomotive reminiscent of UP's M-10000.
>In any case, it was a new train designed to
>make it possible to travel in coach from Chi to NOL in a single day for the
>first time.
Correct. The typical schedule called for departure from Chicago and
New Orleans at 7:30 or 8 a.m. and arrival at the opposite terminal
just after midnight.
>By the time I rode it in the mid 60s, it had descended to the
>state of the typical coach train of the era - not real bad, but definitely
>not "luxury" service.
The IC didn't throw in the towel on passenger service until the late
sixties. As late as 1967, IC purchased used dome cars from the MP
for use on this train, although the round-end observation cars were
dropped shortly thereafter.
>Was still fast, though, then especially on the
>racetrack between Chicago and Carbondale.
Until the introduction of the Metroliner on the Northeast Corridor circa
1968-69, the Illinois Central line between Champaign and Centralia (122
miles) was the last place in the U. S. where trains could legally travel
100 mph.
Scott E. Preece
|
| All Aboard for Kankakee, Paxton, Rantoul, Champaign, Tuscola, Mattoon,
| Effingham, Centralia, Carbondale, Cairo ...
|
| Of course, this was Amtrak's Panama Limited, after the City of New Orleans
| had been discontinued (or renamed, depending on your view of the history).
Steve Goodman gets the last laugh, though, as the sleeper train now has the
City of New Orleans name, probably in honor of the song...
Shelley Read Heard
"Rise Up Singing" (a Sing Out! publication) but I could be wrong. Even if
it is not, I can highly recomend getting a copy. $15 and 1200 songs with
chords and discographies.
--
Shelley R. Heard
srh...@ingr.com
Intergraph Corporation
Huntsville, AL
Nick Nussbaum
Second misconception: employees of the Federal Government
are not by nature rude or unhelpful. I was a member of
the United States Coast Guard for eight years. While there
were rude, lazy members of that organization, in general
most were dedicated to public service (some who worked for
me and weren't got a verbal kick in the pants).
I've found many goverment employees to be helpful to incredibly helpful.
There have been exceptions, protected by civil service who respond
to being roused from inertia by showing active malice. Unfortunately,
most of us don't have a way to give them a kick in the pants. We
also remember the government version of these folks because we
can't complain to anyone who cares, and we can't go elsewhere
as we can with private companies.
I think that most of us see enough government employees to form
our own judgement. The Amtrak trainman who explained what was
going on I admire. The clerk who lost my phone reservation
and the conductor who let the train sit stalled for 20 minutes
in the dark with no explanation are not a misconception; they're
an experience.
--
Nick Nussbaum ni...@eskimo.com PO 4738 Seattle,WA 98104
William Mayne
in Orleans, long e) in another great train song "Pan American."
He also does not pronounce the final "s", for reasons of rhyme,
though the final "s" is also silent in French. I have a couple of
questions for net.experts:
(1) Is the tune the same as Wabash Cannonball? It sounds very close,
though I don't have a recording of Wabash Canonball to compare.
At least it must be enfluenced by it - maybe a southern answer to
the Wabash. If I am not mistaken Roy Acuff (of Acuff-Rose Music,
promoter of most of Hank's stuff) was well known for his recording
of Wabash Cannonball, though he may not have written it. It is listed
as a "folksong" in a book of music for recorders which I consulted.
(2) When did the train called the Pan American run?
I'm enjoying all the esoteric railroad lore the original thread has
spawned.
Bill Mayne
CZ94000
>In article <1ppjr...@emx.cc.utexas.edu>, mo...@emx.cc.utexas.edu
>(Chandramouli. V) writes:
>> Now for some positive things about AMTRAK: I found the train personnel
>> to be very friendly, informative and they made a conscious attempt to
>> help everyone (in spite of being employees of the federal govt !).
>
>This is a common misconception. Amtrak employees are not federal
>employees (civil servants). Amtrak is a federally subsidized corporation,
>not a branch of the government.
>
Okay, so who _does_ own Amtrak? If I understand correctly, when
Amtrak was established, the freight railroads received common stock
in Amtrak in exchange for their passenger rolling stock, while the
U.S. Government got preferred stock. However, I think different
railroads made different deals with Amtrak, so not all of them
would have become stockholders. Furthermore, there have been
numerous mergers since 1971, presumably affecting the ownership
of Amtrak stock. So does anybody have a current breakdown of the
ownership of Amtrak?
Another point: one of the railroads which gave up its passenger trains
at the time of the formation of Amtrak was the Grand Trunk Western,
so it may be an Amtrak stockholder. But the GTW is owned by
Canadian National, whose sole shareholder is the Government of Canada.
So it may be that the U.S. Government doesn't own Amtrak, but the
Canadian Government does (partially and indirectly).
Tom Box
CZ...@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
James Ray Harper
Organization: Rice University
Cc:
Bcc:
I just listened to Hank singing Pan Am and Roy Acuff singing
Wabash Cannonball. Definately not the same melody, but close. I'm not
sure who originally sung the Wabash Cannonball. However, I have a recording
included in a Roy Acuff album that says "original issue." In it, Roy
Acuff himself does not sing, but makes a train whistling sound. The
vocal is done by Sam "Dynamite" Hatcher; it was recorded in Chicago on
October 21, 1936.
Jim
CS...@psuvm.psu.edu
"City of New Orleans." It took me back to childhood days growing up in
Mattoon, Ill. where I could see the Illinois Central tracks and yard
across a field from my home. Many a day I'd be in the backyard when the
City of New Orleans came through south just before noon.
To add to the information supplied by Jon Roma, when Amtrak took over
on May 1, 1971, it kept the City of New Orleans and another roundtrip between
Chicago and Carbondale. The train continued to run on its pre-Amtrak IC
schedule until November when the schedule was changed to an overnight train.
At that time, the name was changed to Panama Limited. In early 1972, the
Amtrak trains operating on the IC was switched from Central Station to
Union Station.
As Jon pointed out, the Amtrak trains did not stop at either Paxton or
Tuscola. I don't have any schedule in front of me, but I believe IC still
had one train stop at Tuscola in the days just before Amtrak.
Someone speculated in an earlier post that the City of New Orleans may
have been the last "name" train on the Illinois Central, maybe even the
last passenger train. Not quite. At the time IC exited the passenger train
business it's Chicago to Carbondale to Memphis to New Orleans service was
not what it used to be, but it was still a fairly active schedule.
I'm going from memory, but the IC still ran the every-other-day City of
Miami (via Birmingham, Al.), the Panama Limited (although it was not longer
an all-sleeper train and had survived an attempt by the IC to kill it), the
Mid-American (Chicago and Memphis), the Shawnee (Chicago and Carbondale) and
the Campus (also Chicago and Carbonale) in addition to the City of New Orleans.
The City of New Orleans name was restored by Amtrak in the early
1980s (I believe in 1981 or 1982) partly as a promotional gimick. I seem to
recall the city (not the train but the metropolis) of New Orleans (however that
town pronounces its name! :-) ) also wanted the name changed to try to promote
tourism or something like that. At the time, Amtrak also said it was starting
regional food service and was introducing either creole or cajun style entrees
Interestingly, at some point not longer after Amtrak named its Chicago to
New Orleans train the Panama Limited, the IC threatened to force them to quit
using the name since the service on the train was not near what the Panama
has for years offered under the IC's operation.
craig sanders
Steve Carnes
>
> "Mothers with their babes asleep,
> rockin' to the gentle beat,
> and the rhythm of the rails is all they feel."
>
>Arlo sure knew what he was talking about - and you captured it here.
Ack, splut! What's been labelled "The Greatest Train Song Ever
Written" was not by Arlo Guthrie, but by the late Steve Goodman!
(Arlo wrote the definitive motorcycle song! and maybe the greatest
song about trash and color glossies...)
--
Steve Carnes car...@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!carnes
"It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." - Dr. Seuss
mcdowell charles w
that ran from Cincinnati through Louisville, Nashville, and Birmingham to
New Orleans. I can't tell when it started operation, but I do know that for
a while it was an all-Pullman train and it did in fact last right up to
Amtrak (it was basically L&N's premier train) on the same Cincy to NO route.
Trey McDowell (mcdo...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu)
Dave Kosenko
John Lupton writes:
|>
|> Ahem...one minor bit of nitpicking here. Arlo Guthrie did *not* write
|> "City of New Orleans"; Steve Goodman (R.I.P. |-( ) is generally credited
|> with being the sole writer of the tune, HOWEVER... John Denver claims to
|> have cowritten the song with Goodman one night in a hotel; he recorded it
|> on his "Aerie" album (ca.1972), and credits himself and Goodman on the
|> album as writers. A friend of mine who knows a lot about Goodman says he
|> was very liberal about sharing credit with other people who made minimal
|> contributions to songs he had essentially written himself. I don't think
|> Denver would make the claim if there wasn't some basis for it, but most
|> people consider it a Goodman song.
The story, as I heard it, was not that Denver had actually co-written it,
but rather that he changed some of the words (which he did), adding a
bridge, and claimed co-authorship of his version. I had also heard that
Goodman wasn't particularly thrilled with Denver's version, or the claim
of co-authorship.
Dave
Jim Kasprzak
|>
|> I just listened to Hank singing Pan Am and Roy Acuff singing
|> Wabash Cannonball. Definately not the same melody, but close. I'm not
|> sure who originally sung the Wabash Cannonball. However, I have a recording
|> included in a Roy Acuff album that says "original issue." In it, Roy
|> Acuff himself does not sing, but makes a train whistling sound. The
|> vocal is done by Sam "Dynamite" Hatcher; it was recorded in Chicago on
|> October 21, 1936.
sung by, of all people, Bruce Springsteen, and tracked it down through
Doc Watson (there's a good version on the "Doc Watson Onstage" album), but
the credits on Doc's albums list it as "traditional". I didn't find out
about Roy Acuff's authorship until his death earlier this year, when one of
the obituary articles listed it among his more famous works.
------------------------------------------------------------------
__ Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
___/ | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| "I understand the causes, and sympathize your motivations,
\_| But all the details of this war are just your self-infatuation."
==== e-mail: kas...@rpi.edu or kasp...@mts.rpi.edu
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
ma...@pipe.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne) writes:
>
>(2) When did the train called the Pan American run?
>
the 1960s, ran on the L&N (Lousville and Nashville) RR (now a part of
CSX) between Cincinnati and New Orleans via Louisville, Nashville,
Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile, etc. I don't know when it started.
Seems to me there was a "Pan-American Exposition" in New Orleans perhaps
at the time of the opening of the Panama Canal, and chances are that
was the inspiration for the name, but that's just a guess. In any case,
it ran until Amtrak Day, May 1, 1971.
D. Andrew Byler
know), and chartered by the government as a monopoly in the area of
intercity rail transportation.
As such, it is basically a mercantilist company like the East India Tea
Company of days gone by (remember the Boston Tea party from your history
books?).
When Amtrak was formed, the freight railroads recieved cash, not
worthless stock (Amtrak has never made money and certainly has never
paid dividends), in Amtrak for their locomotives and passenger cars.
Andy Byler
CZ94
>Amtrak is a private corporation, completely owned by itself (as far as I
>know), and chartered by the government as a monopoly in the area of
>intercity rail transportation.
>
>As such, it is basically a mercantilist company like the East India Tea
>Company of days gone by (remember the Boston Tea party from your history
>books?).
The East India Company, which dealt in a lot of thangs beside tea
(spices, silk, cotton, opium, ...) certainly had shareholders.
>
>When Amtrak was formed, the freight railroads recieved cash, not
>worthless stock (Amtrak has never made money and certainly has never
>paid dividends), in Amtrak for their locomotives and passenger cars.
>
The idea of a corporation owning itself sounded bizarre to me, so I
did a little digging, and came up with the following quote from
_Jane's_World_Railways_, 1978:
"Three board members are elected annually by the common stockholders
of the Corporation. Shareholders were created by a provision of
the act that permitted railroads to take stock instead of tax
write-offs when Amtrak was organized. Four railroads are share-
holders -- Burlington Northern, Milwaukee Road, Grand Trunk Western,
and trustees of the former Penn Central."
So, does anybody know if this is still the case? Are there still
trustees of Penn Central holding on to miscellaneous assets such as
Amtrak stock? Or did it go to the (non-rail) Penn Central Corp.?
Or to Conrail? And what of the Milwaukee stock? Did it go to
the Soo Line (i.e. Canadian Pacific)? Between the Soo and the
GTW, is Amtrak really a Canadian company? ;-)
Tom Box
CZ...@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
Evan L. Werkema
In a previous article, db...@andrew.cmu.edu ("D. Andrew Byler") says:
>When Amtrak was formed, the freight railroads recieved cash, not
>worthless stock (Amtrak has never made money and certainly has never
>paid dividends), in Amtrak for their locomotives and passenger cars.
I'm not that familiar with the arrangements that created Amtrak, but I had
always thought the railroads had to _pay_ a fee to join Amtrak, or else keep
running their own passenger service.
--
______,,__._.___._._._ _._._.___._.__,,______ -------------
_____IooI== \=====/ =====I I===== \=====/ ==IooI___ | Evan |
|_I____I__I___Santa Fe______I_...@po.cwru.edu_I__I__I__I_| Werkema |
`-~0=0=0~==============~0=0=0~-'~`-~0=0=0~=============~0=0=0~-'~~o==o~~~~~~~~
Jermaster
>>When Amtrak was formed, the freight railroads recieved cash, not
>>worthless stock (Amtrak has never made money and certainly has never
>>paid dividends), in Amtrak for their locomotives and passenger cars.
> I'm not that familiar with the arrangements that created Amtrak, but I had
>always thought the railroads had to _pay_ a fee to join Amtrak, or else keep
>running their own passenger service.
Right. That's why the Rock Island and the Southern stayed out for a long
time. The Rock was only running a few passenger trains (like the "Peoria
Rocket"), so it would not have been worth the entry fee to let Amtrak take
them over (not like they had any $$$ to spare, either). Southern was
only running the _Crescent_, but they finally joined Amtrak (was it mid
80's--I can't remember the exact date).
Later,
-Jer
--
Jerry W. Jordak "After you see what I go through, you'll think
a.k.a. Jermaster twice before go out and break windows, lose
(jw...@po.cwru.edu) jackets, get married, have kids......" --Al Bundy
**** Howard Stern -- The King of All Media ***
Dave Pierson
<db...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Amtrak is a private corporation, completely owned by itself (as far as I
>know),
I believe it is "owned" by the Federal GOvernement. It is a private
private corporation so that its employees need NOT be Federal employees/
> and chartered by the government as a monopoly in the area of
>intercity rail transportation.
>As such, it is basically a mercantilist company like the East India Tea
>Company of days gone by (remember the Boston Tea party from your history
>books?).
Well. The East India Co made money.
>When Amtrak was formed, the freight railroads recieved cash, not
>worthless stock (Amtrak has never made money and certainly has never
>paid dividends), in Amtrak for their locomotives and passenger cars.
I don't believe any cash changed hands. The railroads (not freight
railroads) had a variety of legal obligations to provide passenger
service. These were costing them money. In return for being allowed
to stop losing money, the RRs donated equipment to AMTRAK.
Details on AMTRAK's foundation were in an article in Trains, within the
last few years, piublished on the 25th(?) anniversry.
thanks
dave pierson |the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation |the opinions, my own.
40 Old Bolton Rd |I am the NRA
Stow, Mass 01775 USA |pie...@msd26.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing." A J Raffles
Robert Coe
> Amtrak is a private corporation, completely owned by itself (as far as
> I know), and chartered by the government as a monopoly in the area of
> intercity rail transportation.
>
> As such, it is basically a mercantilist company like the East India Tea
> Company of days gone by (remember the Boston Tea party from your history
> books?).
Amtrak's charter allows it to bid for contracts not related to intercity
transportation. For example, it operates the Boston-area commuter trains
under contract to the MBTA. Even after the MBTA had bought most of the
tracks in their service area, the Boston & Maine RR and its successor,
Guilford Transportation, continued to operate the trains for mainly his-
torical reasons. (They even ran trains on tracks that had once belonged
to Conrail after Conrail lost interest in commuter service.) But Guilford
did a lousy lob: the trains were never on time, and they even (deliberately,
some suspect) provoked their disgruntled unions into expanding a strike
against Guilford's freight service to include the MBTA trains. So the next
time Guilford's contract came up for renewal, the MBTA put it out for com-
petitive bid, and about a dozen railroads (including some from outside of
New England) submitted bids. Amtrak was the one chosen, and they've done
a good job. The trains now run on time, and ridership has increased
dramatically.
Guilford did get a measure of revenge. Some of the trains on the Fitch-
burg line used to run on to Gardner, but the track from Fitchburg to
Gardner is still owned by Guilford. So when the MBTA fired Guilford,
Guilford demanded more than the MBTA could pay for trackage rights to
Gardner, and the trains now go only as far as Fitchburg.
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Ron Newman
|> Right. That's why the Rock Island and the Southern stayed out for a long
|> time. The Rock was only running a few passenger trains (like the "Peoria
|> Rocket"), so it would not have been worth the entry fee to let Amtrak take
|> them over (not like they had any $$$ to spare, either). Southern was
|> only running the _Crescent_, but they finally joined Amtrak (was it mid
|> 80's--I can't remember the exact date).
Another line that stayed out of Amtrak for quite a while was the
Denver & Rio Grand Western, which ran its own Zephyr from Denver
to Salt Lake City through the Moffat Tunnel. In the meantime,
Amtrak's Zephyr/Desert Wind avoided D&RGW territory by taking a
much less scenic route through Wyoming.
--
Ron Newman rne...@bbn.com
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
jw...@po.CWRU.Edu (Jermaster) writes:
>
>Right. That's why the Rock Island and the Southern stayed out for a long
>time. The Rock was only running a few passenger trains (like the "Peoria
>Rocket"), so it would not have been worth the entry fee to let Amtrak take
>them over (not like they had any $$$ to spare, either). Southern was
>only running the _Crescent_, but they finally joined Amtrak (was it mid
>80's--I can't remember the exact date).
>
Rocket" between Chicago and Peoria, and the "Quad City Rocket" between
Chicago and Quad Cities - I think it actually terminated in Davenport IA.
In the case of the Rock Island, you're probably right. They weren't losing
all that much - probably making up a fair amount on the bar car on the
"Peoria Rocket" - and didn't have any cash.
With the Southern, though, I think it may have been as much a matter of
pride as anything else. They were running the "Crescent" as a first class
train in the grand manner. They were also running the remains of the
"Birmingham Special" between Washington and Monroe VA. They were allowed
to discontinue that vestigial service after a couple of years. I think the
"Asheville Special" remnant was still running, also, between Greensboro and
Asheville when Amtrak started, but I could be wrong and it may have been
discontinued a short time earlier. I could check my timetables but will be
probably too busy this weekend to even think about it.
Two other railroads that were eligible to join Amtrak opted not to. Everyone
knows the Rio Grande, with its famous "Never on Wednesdays" "Rio Grande
Zephyr". In their case, it was partly a matter of pride in THEIR train, and
also, they didn't want to "mess with" Amtrak running what would certainly
have been a daily train over their line getting in the way of their freight
trains. I think they just felt there would be less hassle in running their
own train that they could control versus having to deal with a quasi-Federal
agency who might, in their view, make demands that would be a nuisance.
The fourth railroad was the Georgia. They were still running their famous
"mixed train" between Atlanta and Augusta, and the three lesser known ones
on branch lines. They were (are?) still officially the Georgia Railroad and
Banking Company, and were under some sort of weird banking laws that forced
them to operate passenger service. Apparently this combination of a railroad
and a bank was common in the South in ante-bellum days, and the Georgia was
the last of the breed. If somemone from the great peach and peanut state
is listening and can explain these laws in laymen's terms, I think we'd all
like to hear about it.
For a few years, Amtrak showed the schedules of these four railroads in their
national timetables (or whatever passed for a national timetable at the
particular time - there were all sorts of funny variations in the forms), and
showed their routes on its system maps.
Brian Huck
the posting which claimed that the Crescent was operated by Southern until
the mid-80's, when it became an AMTRAK operation. I took AMTRAK,
presumably the Crescent, from Atlanta to Washington in the early 80's
(March 1982).
Ron Newman
|> The Rock Island was running (other than commuter trains) the "Peoria
|> Rocket" between Chicago and Peoria, and the "Quad City Rocket" between
|> Chicago and Quad Cities - I think it actually terminated in Davenport IA.
|> In the case of the Rock Island, you're probably right. They weren't losing
|> all that much - probably making up a fair amount on the bar car on the
|> "Peoria Rocket" - and didn't have any cash.
So why did the Rock Island finally join Amtrak? And why didn't
Amtrak continue running these trains? Sounds like everyone would
have been better off if Rock Island had just kept on doing what
was making them money.
--
Ron Newman rne...@bbn.com
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
rne...@bbn.com (Ron Newman) writes:
>
>So why did the Rock Island finally join Amtrak? And why didn't
>Amtrak continue running these trains? Sounds like everyone would
>have been better off if Rock Island had just kept on doing what
>was making them money.
>
simply continued to operate their own passenger trains until they were
allowed to discontinue them. The original Amtrak legislation had a time
limit (5 years sticks in my mind, but I could be wrong) for which a railroad
that opted not to join HAD to keep running their passenger trains. After
that time, whatever it was, expired, the railroad was presumably free to
go through "normal" channels if they wanted to discontinue them. I assume
that's what the Rock Island did.
I have heard proposals for instituting a 403 (b) train between Chicago and
Peoria, but as we all know, 'tain't happened yet.
G. Patrick Molloy
writes:
Amtrak took over operation of Southern's "Crescent" in 1978.
G. Patrick Molloy
Huntsville, Alabama
James B. VanBokkelen
... I took AMTRAK, presumably the Crescent, from Atlanta to Washington
in the early 80's (March 1982).
It was definitely Southern when I rode it in 1979, definitely AMTRAK when I
rode it around 1983.
James B. VanBokkelen 2 High St., North Andover, MA 01845
FTP Software Inc. voice: (508) 685-4000 fax: (508) 794-4488
James B. VanBokkelen
Amtrak took over operation of Southern's "Crescent" in 1978.
I rode it in February, 1979, and it still had all SR equipment, with silver
in the dining car, etc.
G. Patrick Molloy
> In article <1993Apr19.0...@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov>
> pmo...@microwave.msfc.nasa.gov (G. Patrick Molloy) writes:
>
> Amtrak took over operation of Southern's "Crescent" in 1978.
>
> I rode it in February, 1979, and it still had all SR equipment, with silver
> in the dining car, etc.
Well, Amtrak claims to have taken over operation of the Crescent in 1978
(See the caption for the 1992 Amtrak Calendar).
I think the confusion comes from the fact that Amtrak was running the train,
but still using Southern equipment. At the North Alabama Railroad Museum,
we have one of the sleepers from the Crescent (the "Ocmulgee River") that
Southern gave us in the late 70's/early 80's. It still has Southern markings,
but inside you will find miscellaneous Amtrak stuff (coat hangers, brochures,
linnen, etc.) that was in the car when we got it. I hope this clears things up.
Dave Palmer
The song that Steve Goodman wrote and the song that Arlo
Guthrie recorded three years later are different. Goodman's version
(and Willie Nelson's version) was more upbeat, while Arlo's was kind
of driven, yet somber. Also, there are some differences in the lyrics
and the music was somewhat altered.
--The Midwesterner
--
"At dawn my lover comes to me and tells me of her dreams/With no attempts to
shovel the glimpse into the ditch of what each one means/At times I think
there are no words but these to tell what's true/And there are no truths
outside the Gates of Eden" --Arlo Guthrie, "Gates of Eden" (B. Dylan)
Joseph C Fineman
The Country Gentlemen on which the old black men in the song have been
bleached to old *gray* men. Whose idea was that?
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
CS...@psuvm.psu.edu
got to pull out "Journey To Amtrak," published in 1972 by Kalmbach Books, the
same company that publishes Trains magazine. What follows was largely taken
from that book.
At the time of the creation of the National Railroad Passenger Corp. (the
official name of Amtrak), 26 railroads were eligible to join. Ultimately, 20
of them signed contracts with NRPC. The law creating NRPC said any RR joining
could drop all intercity passenger service after May 1, 1971 except for that
service designed and paid for by NRPC. The law exempted commuter trains, which
the railroads were to continue operating.
Railroads that elected not to join NRPC by law had to continue operating
their passenger trains until January 1, 1975, at which time they could
petition the ICC to remove them.
The federal government gave NRPC $40 million in direct grants and
$100 million in government-guranteed loans. NRPC was also to receive some
$200 million from the railroads that "bought in" the NRPC. The law also
required NRPC to honor all existing labor agreements and hence Amtrak started
without having any control over the employees operating its trains. Those
employees continued to be supervised and paid by the contracting railroads.
The amount of money that the contracting railroads were to pay to the NRPC
was to be determined by one of three different formulas. The could pay
(1) 50 percent of the defecit their RR incurred operating passenger trains in
the year 1969 OR (2) 100 percent of the avoidable loss for passenger service
operated in 1969 OR (3) 200 percent of the avoidable losses of service operated
in 1969 between points to be served under the basic Amtrak system.
In return the railroads received NRPC common stock and (more importantly)
they got rid of trains they had wanted to get rid of for years. So, to answer
the question of who owns Amtrak, the answer is the contracting railroads -- at
least at the time that the NRPC was created.
I can't speak authoritatively about ownership today. I can only presume that
the contracting railroads still hold Amtrak common stock and hence they remain
the owners of the NRPC. However, I have often seen the term quasi-public
corporation used to describe Amtrak, probably because without government
subsidies, Amtrak would have quit running years ago.
The term is also probably used because although Amtrak was owned by its
contracting railroads, all of the major decisions were made by a board of
directors that was dominated by appointees of the president of the United
States.
The contract that the railroads signed to join Amtrak dictated that the
NRPC was to pay the operating railroads the actual costs of operating the
trains, reasonable terminal costs, and 5 percent.
This cost quickly became staggering. By July, Amtrak had exhausted its
initial $40 million grant from the federal government and began living on
the monthly "buy-in" payments from the contracting railroads -- which was
about $5.47 million a month -- and by using some of its guaranteed loans,
which were supposed to be used for capital expenses -- to pay operating costs.
The railroad "buy-in" payments, by the way, were to be paid monthly until
April 1974.
Thus began a pattern that would soon become regular. Congress would
allocate an operating subsidy, Amtrak would exhaust it before the end of the
fiscal year, Amtrak would go hat-in-hand to Congress to seek a supplemental
appropriation. If Congress balked, Amtrak would begin listing trains that
would be discontinued without the extra money. This hardball tactic was
effective for several years -- until Congress got fed up in 1979 and a number
of trains were cut in the fall.
Of course, this whole game was triggered by a provision in the law
dictating that Amtrak was to be a for profit corporation. In theory, if Amtrak
made a profit, there would be dividends paid to the stockholders, the
contracting railroads. Somehow I doubt Amtrak has ever paid as much as a dime
to its common stock holders. In 1973, Burlington Northern President Lewis Menk
told CBS's 60 Minutes that Amtrak stock was worthless.
One message in this threat also made reference to Amtrak holding a passenger
train monopoly. That true to a degree and has been the subject of fights from
time to time. For example, in 1974, the Auto-Train Corp. proposed starting a
train between Louisville, Ky. and Florida. Amtrak objected, claiming that
under the law it had the exclusive right to operate scheduled passenger service
over the L&N -- one of Amtrak's contracting railroads.
Auto-Train existed at the time Amtrak was created and the law did allow for
Auto-Train to continue its operations over lines that belonged to Amtrak.
However, Amtrak claimed that its interpretation of the clause was that it
"grandfathered" in Auto-Train service but gave Amtrak exclusive right to
operate any new service started after May 1, 1971 on line under contract to
Amtrak. Eventually the dispute was settled when Amtrak dropped its objections
to the Midwest Auto-Train service. In return, Auto-Train would not object to
Amtrak's plans to start its own auto ferry train service between Indianapolis
and Florida. For various reasons, Amtrak never operated a Midwest to Florida
auto ferry train.
I also recall reading that Amtrak in its early days wanted to operate
another auto ferry train in the west. But Southern Pacific objected and Amtrak
backed away. SP claimed that Amtrak's plan would violate a clause of the law
prohibiting Amtrak from operating freight service.
Amtrak took a lot of criticism for its refusal to face up to SP and fight it
out over the interpretation of the clause.
The contracts between Amtrak and the contracting railroads did contain a
clause allowing the railroads to operate fan excursion trains. Thus Amtrak
does not quite have an exclusive monopoly on intercity passenger service.
But for all intents and purposes it has a virtual monopoly.
Since its founding, the law creating the NRPC has been amended numerous
times. Some of those amendments may have a bearing on the question of who
"owns" Amtrak. I also am not personally aware of any changes that may have
been negotiated over the years between Amtrak and the contracting railroads.
Thus the payment system outlined above may no longer be in effect. I have
read that Amtrak has negotiated incentive payment clauses with many railroads
in an effort to induce them to try to see to it that Amtrak trains run on time
or as close to schedule as possible.
I hope net readers have found this long message to be informative.
craig sanders