Railfans are being persecuted! (from wash. post)
abdul rahim
harassment of law-abiding railfans in these paranoid times.
On a balmy Sunday afternoon late last month, Richard Whitenight did
what he often does on his days off: He went to a busy railroad
junction in Fort Worth to watch the trains roll by.
But as he sat making notes about passing freight trains, two police
cruisers approached. Over the next five hours, Whitenight -- who works
for the police department in nearby Arlington, Tex. -- identified
himself to the officers. Then he identified himself to the officers'
supervisor, then a detective from a terrorism task force, then the
FBI. They seized his trainspotter's notebook and grilled him about
every mark and note in it. They searched his car and took photos of
it, inside and out. Finally, he had to sign a form agreeing never to
return to the location known as Tower 55.
Whitenight is one of thousands, perhaps millions, of people around the
world who spend much of their time observing and photographing
railroad operations out of a love for trains. In general, railroads
have encouraged these "railfans" as long as they do not trespass or
interfere with operations. Railroads even hold contests to use railfan
photographs in calendars, and the Association of American Railroads
has started a Web site to encourage the hobby.
But after the FBI announced last month it had credible reports that al
Qaeda might be targeting railroads, a growing minority of railfans
have been questioned and sometimes searched. A handful have even been
threatened with arrest, for pursuing a hobby they have embraced for
years.
Law enforcement officers and train crews have been told to be on the
lookout for suspicious characters asking detailed questions about
railroad operations, taking notes and taking pictures of trains. It
appears the descriptions of "terrorist" and "railfan" are the same.
"It's an unfortunate coincidence," said Edward Hamburger, president of
the Association of American Railroads. But he said railroads may be a
terrorist target, and "we want them to know we're not a soft target.
People have to recognize they will be approached, they will be
questioned, they will be asked to move on."
"Railfanning, by its very nature, is suspicious," said John Bromley,
longtime head of public relations for Union Pacific, the nation's
largest railroad. "It involves loitering, taking pictures and taking
notes."
Some railfans are railroaders themselves, some museum curators,
professors and others with a link to railroading. Others come from all
walks of life. Some become minutely specialized, such as one group
that follows the movements of a single type of diesel locomotive.
But most are like Whitenight, 54, a Vietnam-era Navy veteran who
simply loves to watch trains. In fact, until the FBI warning, dozens
of railfans would regularly gather at Tower 55, an old switching and
signal tower where main lines of the Union Pacific and the Burlington
Northern Santa Fe converge near downtown Fort Worth.
A lot of the train crews came to know the group and often waved and
smiled. "Some of the guys recognize us," Whitenight said. "They see us
all the time. But now they've been told to report us."
Even though "train crews sort of know a railfan when they see one," as
Bromley put it, Union Pacific has ordered them to report all activity
that might be remotely suspicious. That includes people taking
pictures of trains, even if they are doing so legally and are not
trespassing on railroad property.
Railroad police or local police departments are then dispatched to
check out the situation. Reports of suspicious activity are "up
significantly" in the last few weeks, Bromley said.
"We certainly aren't out to destroy an American tradition of watching
trains, but we have to be careful," Bromley said.
Norfolk Southern has taken similar steps, although Robert Fort,
communications vice president, said railfans won't be subject to
arrest unless they are trespassing. Even then police will generally
just escort railfans off railroad property, he said. "Tact and
diplomacy are the order of the day," Fort said.
Spokesmen for Burlington Northern Santa Fe, Amtrak and CSX
Transportation say they are not specifically targeting photographers
but have asked crews to report suspicious activity.
Normally, police who encounter railfans simply check identities and
record names and other basic information. But a few encounters go
beyond that. Internet chat groups have been filled with stories of
conflicts with police and railroad employees, including one Union
Pacific conductor who ran up a bank to a public street to shout at a
railfan to stop taking pictures of his train.
Jim Satterwhite of Greenville, Tex., president of Coastline Rail
Services, was out photographing trains last weekend when his wife had
a visit from police. It seems a Kansas City Southern Railway
locomotive crew had reported his tag number. Shortly after the police
visit, his wife received a call from a railroad official.
Satterwhite said in an interview that as a 20-year Air Force veteran
who now works in the railroad industry, he understands the need for
safety and security. But "when do we become prisoners in our own
homes?" he asked.
Even before the FBI announcement, railfans said they had noticed an
increasing police presence.
Joseph Suarez, 17, of Carson, Calif., said he and a friend were
ordered out of their parked car a few weeks back while waiting for a
train and patted down by a Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy, who
had trouble comprehending why their back seat was full of cameras,
notebooks and train magazines. After his friend showed the deputy a
business card advertising train photographs for sale, "that seemed to
satisfy him a little bit." Finally, the deputy walked away, saying, "I
don't have a problem with you being here." Nonetheless, Suarez said,
they left the area and don't intend to go back for a while.
Railfans aren't the only suspicious-looking characters who are merely
hobbyists. Planespotters scour the world's airports to record and
photograph airplanes. Greek authorities recently arrested several
British and Dutch planespotters and charged them with espionage. They
were released last week by a judge, who said it was clear they were
merely following a hobby. One big difference between planespotters and
trainspotters is that it is much easier to get close to the hundreds
of thousands of miles of railroads, while most airports are fenced off
and guarded.
Even as police and the railroads view railfans with suspicion, Federal
Railroad Administrator Alan Rutter says the railfan network could be
"a real value" in spotting truly suspicious activity. Rutter said the
government is already taking advantage of the intelligence-gathering
abilities of railfans. In addition to perusing Web sites, an FRA
spokesman said, the agency's field staff has begun asking people it
knows to be legitimate railfans to report suspicious activity.
The railfan intelligence-gathering capability is formidable. There are
numerous Internet chat groups that keep up with almost everything
unusual that moves on the railroad, from the Ringling Bros. and Barnum
& Bailey Circus train to trains carrying nuclear casks to storage
sites.
Those chat sites have been filled for weeks with advice on what to do
about the growing police attention. That advice includes a caution
that the railroads also stress: Don't trespass on railroad property.
Many of the postings take a patriotic tone; many others express anger.
But the advice also includes ways to look unthreatening, by wearing a
shirt with a locomotive on it, for instance, or carrying railfan
magazines to show police officers who never heard of the hobby.
"As crazy as it sounds, you need to educate the cop about our strange
hobby in under 60 seconds," wrote Todd Clark, the webmaster of
Trainorders.com.
Clark said in an interview that, for the most part, railroad police
are familiar with the hobby but local police "think it's bizarre that
grown men would be out there taking pictures of trains."
Rutter suggested that railfans be "mellow" when approached by police.
He said Whitenight was a good example of how to act: Cooperate, keep
cool and understand that "everything passes in time."
At the same time, he said the FRA now understands that it must help
law enforcement agencies understand railfans.
"We'll try to do what we can to let people know that railfans are out
there," Rutter said.
Most railfans take notes of some kind, often in a language all their
own. "That ALBMDX-22 was 55 loads of mixed Toyotas and Nissans for the
Midlothian unloading facility'' is one of the more jargon-free
examples.
Whitenight said the police in his case "didn't even recognize our
terminology."
"If even one of them had known what we were talking about," he said,
"we could have cleared this up fast."
Clark said the Federal Railroad Administration obviously is watching
his Web site, because an official contacted him in May expressing
concern about a person who asked about the location of certain bridges
and wrote in broken English. That person turned out to be a legitimate
Swiss railfan.
The FRA also asked Clark to issue a caution on the Web site about
being too specific about the location of bridges and tunnels. Most of
his subscribers complied immediately, he said.
Some railfans are advising their brothers to remain undercover as much
as possible, not looking like railfans, keeping the car out of sight,
taking one photo and moving to another location. This is becoming
known as "guerrilla railfanning."
"You mean like Poland in the 1960s?" said Nils Huxtable, a Canadian
railfan who has traveled the world for decades taking pictures of
steam locomotives, writing books and producing train calendars. In
Eastern Europe years ago, he dodged the secret police to take
forbidden railroad pictures.
Huxtable said he has started to avoid the United States for railfan
activities. "It's just not enjoyable being in that atmosphere," he
said.
re...@mailandnews.com
freight railroads are a noisy, hazardous, unsightly industry to the
communities they pass thru. Non-railfans will say "Not In My Back
Yard" and try to legislate the RR out of business. The ROW could be
used as a rail trail, and residential property values may go up.
" Kenilworth Mayor Michael Tripodi said yesterday he will reconvene
the "Stop the Train" committee that opposes a revival of the Rahway
Valley and Staten Island railroads through eight Union County towns.
The action comes after Tripodi said Union County Manager George
Devanney failed to respond to a letter last month requesting an
immediate halt to reactivating freight service on tracks that stretch
from Linden to Summit. "
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/union/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1037356264179660.xml
PC Replay
Now that we have the buffs under control, how about ticket agents?? Devious
lot if there ever was one!
"abdul rahim" <garth....@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:c7c4f07f.02111...@posting.google.com...
Gregory Gritton
>
> Similar incident happened to me. Went to a favorite spot to
> photograph trains, got questiond at least six times by local cops.
> Even almost got hauled in for "suspicion", had it not been for one Lt
> who is also a railfan, and a friend of mine.
> He told me the same sort of thing is happening, and I told him he
> needed to educate his fellow officers on what the difference is
> between a "railfan" and a "terrorist".
>
> Youm might wonder if he did, well, in a way, he did set up a small
> class for this purpose, only he "drafted" me to assist him.
>
> But to date, our local cops are more knowledgable about what a railfan
> looks for, and what a terrorist is interested in.
> There is a difference - as a railfan, I like taking photos of
> interesting pieces of rolling stock, locos, buidings, trackwork.
> If I am working on a model, whether it is a car, loco, bldg, or track
> work, I can get more data from NMRA, than from the railroad; except
> when it involves something like the triple track interlaced wye that
> serves Union Station in Saint Louis; or the trackage which serves the
> "limestone caves" in the KCMO/KCKS area.
>
> A terrorist would, I am sure, be more interested in how many tons of
> freight is moved over a particular stretch of track, or how close to a
> major city/county/state/federal highway, a particular line might run,
> or how many trains move thru a particular area in a space of a few
> hours.
> They would almost certainly be out there doing actual measurements,
> such as pacing off distances, taking closeup pics of details, and not
> just general photos of such.
> Also, they would not be seen, often, taking notes, although some would
> do so anyway.
> Most such types, would have been trained to memorize such details, so
> they could later put down what they measured.
> My brother saw that in VietNam, where a suspected NVA agent, in the
> uniform of a ARVN, would be seem stepping off a distance, and mentally
> counting how many steps he took, so that later on, the NVA would know
> how far they had to go before they got to a particular point.
>
I really depends on the railfan. I have been sort of a "railfan" for
many years, following rail (and transit) operation. However, I have
not been too interested in many of the things most railfan's are
interested in, such as model railroads, or steam trains, or the details
of railroad history.
Instead, I have been interested in how to make transit, including rail,
work. This means have looked at vehicle capacities and comfort, speed,
and cost. I have scoured the web for vehicle dimensions, acceleration
rates, power, weights, etc., and measured many of the same parameters
myself. (People probably think I am strange as I measure the seat
widths on busses or light rail). I have been interested in getting
maps showing the exact curvature of lines so I could figure how fast
a high-speed rail line following a particular route could run. I have
worked with formulas and writen programs and spreadsheets to simulate
acceleration and deceleration. I have looked up information on population,
population densities, and tavel patterns between various cities.
I guess all of this comes from the engineer in me. In real life I
design chips, but as sort of a hobby I design transportation systems.
And, I try to share my conclusions with others, and have been at
least a little bit active on transportion newsgroups and discussion
lists. (You might have seen one of my recent posts on rec.transport.
urban-transport on the Seattle monorail.)
But, many of these things are items that you list a terroist would
be interested in, because they relate to how the railroad actually
operates. Yet, others may have these interests also.
> By far, terrorists are a lot better trained than most people think,
> figuring that the terrorist is more into instant action, than long
> range planning, which even our leaders ascribed to the leaders of such
> groups. But the fact it, that a terrorist will do what ever is
> necessary, even as far back as several months, to ensure the success
> of his groups plans.
>
> As for what we railfanners can do today, we can and should call our
> local railroad company, and ask permission to be at a specific site,
> for the pursuit of our hobby. Cuase when you get asked by the cops,
> and you sy the dispatcher knows you are here, and the dispatcher
> verifies that statement - you wont be challeneged by the cops, as it
> will be oin record that you have permission to be in that spot.
>
> So, and for safety sake, always ask the local
> dispatcher/yardmaster/operatonms chief for permission to "invade"
> their property, to take photos.
Greg Gritton
John Obert
it should not surprise anyone
all you can do is cooperate reasonably with the police always have id
however car searches are illegal unless you let them in i.e. leave a door
open or answer a question like "do what you have to do" they are trained to
make you think you have to let them in but the supreme court still says you
need a warrant
understand most of the time when they tell you you cannot be on public
property and photograph trains they have no law behind them but then if they
are stupid or power hunger asses they can make up a violation of disturbing
the peace if they want to charge
bras...@despammed.com
If I were wanting to protect our city against terrorists, railroads would
be a bit low on my list of places that might get hit.
The first place I would try to protect, that isn't heavily protected
already, is a certain section of public road near a certain city near here
which is near some gasoline storage warehouses.
Entering that section of road, you see this HUGE sign that says:
NO SMOKING
ON (name of street)
BEYOND THIS POINT
It leaves the general impression that anyone walking down the sidewalk
with a lit cigarette would cause most of the city to vanish in a huge
explosion, but somehow I don't think that is the reality.
--
-Glenn Laubaugh
Personal Web Site: http://users.easystreet.com/glennl
Don Forsling
"John Obert" <isp...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:B9FC7F8F.5584%isp...@ameritech.net...
> we are a nation in fear of its shadow
>
> it should not surprise anyone
> all you can do is cooperate reasonably with the police always have id
>
> however car searches are illegal unless you let them in i.e. leave a door
> open or answer a question like "do what you have to do" they are trained
to
> make you think you have to let them in but the supreme court still says
you
> need a warrant
>
Well, _I_ don't need a warrant, but the cops do _most of the time_ but not
_all_ the time, and not in every situation. If the police search without a
warrant and can convince the court after the fact that they had reasonable
cause to carry out the search, the proceeds of the search can be used as
evidence. For example, warrantless but legal searches are conducted all the
time on some of our interstate highways when after a stopping a vehicle for,
say speeding, the officer, based on the behavior of the driver or
passengers, what he or she can see from outside the car, and on and on and
on forms a reasonable belief that the car is carrying drugs, stolen goods,
or weapons.. And in the case of hot pursuit (a car chase after a bank
robbery, for example) where, for instance, the car occupants are known to be
carrying guns, there's no question that the car can be searched without the
police having a warrant.
Dave W
Or simply lock you up without a charge for 24 hours. Indefinitely if you
appear to be of middle eastern decent.
DAve
Joshua E. Rodd
> Or simply lock you up without a charge for 24 hours. Indefinitely if you
> appear to be of middle eastern decent.
Or lock you up with a charge after planting illegal drugs on your
vehicle and/or person, especially if you appear to be of non-white
descent.
--
Joshua E. Rodd <jos...@rodd.us>
Martin Edwards
wrote:
With so much anti-Establishment feeling in the US, why are the
Republicans doing so well?
******Martin Edwards.******
Come on! Nobody's gonna drive that lousy freeway
when you can take the Red Car for a nickel.
-Eddy Valiant
DaveW
Huh? What makes you think that there's "so much" anti-establishment
feeling ? Actually, there's realtively little, as usual. Of course, it
depends on how you define "establishment".
As for the Republicans, sure, they won a lot of seats, but I'm not aware
that there was anything approaching a mandage. Lots of very narrow
victories is more like it. Of course if you're the winner, even by one
vote, you get to call it a mandate anyway. Just ask George W. Bush.
DAve
Bill Pittman
DaveW <nospam...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> As for the Republicans, sure, they won a lot of seats, but I'm not aware
> that there was anything approaching a mandage.
Should they put a bandage on the mandage? :-)
John Obert
i feel safer all ready
Clarence Page
Beware: Uncle Sam wants all of
your data
Published November 17, 2002
WASHINGTON -- Some people read George Orwell's "1984"
with a sense of
dread. Others read it and think, "Hmmm, cool idea!"
It must have taken such a mind to dream up the
"data-mining" proposal that's
included in the Homeland Security Act that passed the
House last week in a
Republican-brokered agreement by a 299-121 vote.
It would enable law enforcement to peek into just about
every public and private
act of every American--and without the ubiquitous cameras
and "tele-screens"
that Big Brother used to control folks in Orwell's
nightmare.
Just think of it. Think of all the stuff about you that
is now stored in some
computer somewhere.
In the commercial world there are your credit card
purchases, your academic
record, your bank records, your vacation trips, your
medical prescriptions, the
Web sites you surf, your e-mails ... !
Then there's the stuff that the government has on you,
like your driver's license,
passport records, tollway I-PASS records, marriage and
divorce records.
Yup, there's all kinds of good stuff that people would
like to know about you that
you might not like for others to know.
Now the U.S. Department of Defense reportedly wants to
set up "a virtual
centralized grand database," a computerized dossier on
everyone's private life, a
"Total Information Awareness" about every U.S. citizen.
And who is seeking all of this? John Poindexter, the
national security adviser to
President Ronald Reagan who was convicted of misleading
Congress and making
false statements in connection with the Iran-Contra
scandal. An appeals court
later overturned the verdict because Congress had given
him immunity for his
testimony.
The retired vice admiral now heads the "Information
Awareness Office" in the
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which gave us
Internet and stealth
aircraft technology.
Data-mining is his idea, according to stories that first
appeared in The New York
Times and The Washington Post.
Computers and analysts could use this available
information to determine
patterns of people's behavior, detect and identify
terrorists, decipher plans and
presumably enable the United States to pre-empt terrorist
acts.
"This is not some far-out Orwellian scenario," Times
columnist William Safire, a
veteran of the Nixon administration, opined. "It is what
will happen if John
Poindexter gets the unprecedented power he seeks."
Privacy is not a partisan issue. It is a tough question:
How much of a price is too
much to pay in President Bush's war on terror?
That's a big question lurking deep in the fine print of
the Homeland Security Act,
a question that has received surprisingly little
attention as it speeds on a fast
track toward passage with President Bush's backing.
You could sort of understand how the USA Patriot Act
zipped through Congress.
It was right after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. We,
the public, were in a panic
and grieving deeply.
So we let Congress and President Bush hastily sign away
more than a dozen
privacy laws, expand the Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act and relax some
requirements for government agents to report secret
eavesdropping to Congress
and the courts.
In an atmosphere of fear and tragedy, Americans
surrendered some of their
privacy rights and gave law enforcement officials more
powers of surveillance,
even if it might have been more powers than the
government really needed. Make
their jobs easier, goes the logic of such circumstances,
and everyone will feel
safer. Feeling safer is what security is all about.
But it is less easy to forgive "us," the public, the
media and the rest of the
chattering classes for refusing to pay attention as more
and more of our privacy
protections are sucked into the dark abyss of legislative
fine print. That's what
governments often itch to do, take more power than they
need when nobody's
looking--or when nobody much cares.
Most of media attention that the Homeland Security Act
has received has been
directed at the Republican-Democratic squabbles over
Civil Service protections for
government workers.
We in the media love such old-century partisan squabbles.
They are easy to
cover. Meanwhile, some of our most cherished liberties
could go up in smoke like
a discarded national-security file.
Government needs to have access to information about
potential bad guys and
gals, but there also should be limits. America's enduring
form of government rests
on a delicate system of checks and balances and oversight
by one branch or
agency over another.
Americans need to vigorously discuss and debate the new
definitions of oversight
that government officials want to have over our private
lives.
It's easy to understand why government officials want
these new powers. It is
less easy to understand why the rest of us would
surrender them without an
argument.
John Obert
the pentagon will be supplied with the names and grades of all public high
school seniors under the no child will be left behind act
all schools public and private taking federal money must allow the
recruiters on campass
according to pentagon spokesperson this is to make recruitment easier
and maker sure they can operate in all schools
Michael G. Koerner
Those high-schoolers are already *REQUIRED* to register with the
Selective Service upon their 18th birthday. Also, I was fairly actively
recruited from my junior year until my mid twenties. I would have
likely been declared '4F' due to previous conditions had I tried to join
up with them, though.
Besides, the Federal, most state and some city governments ALREADY have
*FULL* access to your most innermost personal secrets, it is via a
system called the 'income tax' (you know, those obnoxiously probing and
complex forms that you dutifully fill out every year, detailing your
complete financial and other history for the previous year).
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
John Obert
when did that law change?
when you sign up all you have to give is your name address and birth date
the schools are required to give up your grade and activities, club, sports
and those medical records known by the school, and any problems you may
have caused
IN OTHER WORDS EVERYTHING THE SCHOOLS KNOWS ABOUT YOU MUST BE GIVEN TO THE
GOVERMENT
the pentagon spokesman did not say did but if you went to your school
counselor with a problem I can believe that since it is part of your record
it would be turn over
they said they include it in the law because to many schools did not want
them on campuses the spokesman said it would allow them to target the more
acceptable students while lowing their cost per recruit
income tax info is only where you work or earn money not any personal
information
bras...@despammed.com
<isp...@ameritech.net> wrote:
> all schools public and private taking federal money must allow the
> recruiters on campass
This will be fun when the try to implement that in Portland. The Portland
Public School System has so far remained off limits to military recruiters
due to the US Military not obeying the letter of the law with Portland's
anti-discrimination ordinance on homosexuals. It's been one of many
controversial moves that has happened during the Katz administration as
mayor - though I'm not sure how much of that was the school board or how
much of that was her.
Michael G. Koerner
>
> I did not know they where now requiring girls to sign up too.
>
> when did that law change?
>
> when you sign up all you have to give is your name address and birth date
>
> the schools are required to give up your grade and activities, club, sports
> and those medical records known by the school, and any problems you may
> have caused
>
> IN OTHER WORDS EVERYTHING THE SCHOOLS KNOWS ABOUT YOU MUST BE GIVEN TO THE
> GOVERMENT
> the pentagon spokesman did not say did but if you went to your school
> counselor with a problem I can believe that since it is part of your record
> it would be turn over
>
> they said they include it in the law because to many schools did not want
> them on campuses the spokesman said it would allow them to target the more
> acceptable students while lowing their cost per recruit
Simple, turn down the Federal money or go via the 'private school' or
'home school' route.
> income tax info is only where you work or earn money not any personal
> information
Well, let's see...
When you file your tax forms, you tell the government such things as
your favorite charities (itemized deductions), marital status, family
size, their names/SSNs, where you work, what your job is, your loan
info, own/rent?, etc. 'Business' filings are far more probing that
that, too. Sounds pretty 'personal' to me.
I consider my financial situation to be highly confidential 'personal
information', a close second only to one's favorite night-time positions
with his/her significant other(s).
John Obert
the law for the same reason about gays and lost
I do not know if it was in court or the very real threat of loss of federal
money. no public school system today does not take some form of federal
money
in fact it was Harvard Univ. a few months ago after navy recruiters were not
allowed on campus, as they had not been allowed since the mid 80s, to either
allow the recruiters for the government would cut of finical aid to students
and all research grants
Harvard Univ. let them set up offices
Merritt Mullen
"Michael G. Koerner" <mgk...@dataex.com> wrote:
> John Obert wrote:
> >
> > all today on npr
> >
> > the pentagon will be supplied with the names and grades of all public high
> > school seniors under the no child will be left behind act
But not private high-school students? In other words, if your family is
well off, you can avoid being indentified to the military?
> > all schools public and private taking federal money must allow the
> > recruiters on campass
> >
> > according to pentagon spokesperson this is to make recruitment easier
> > and maker sure they can operate in all schools
>
> Those high-schoolers are already *REQUIRED* to register with the
> Selective Service upon their 18th birthday. Also, I was fairly actively
> recruited from my junior year until my mid twenties. I would have
> likely been declared '4F' due to previous conditions had I tried to join
> up with them, though.
Yeah, but very few high-schoolers are 18 years old. I was a freshman in
college on my 18th birthday. Anyway, that data is for the Selective
Service (draft); I am not sure it is available to recruiters (who are
usually dealing with 17 year olds anyway).
> Besides, the Federal, most state and some city governments ALREADY have
> *FULL* access to your most innermost personal secrets, it is via a
> system called the 'income tax' (you know, those obnoxiously probing and
> complex forms that you dutifully fill out every year, detailing your
> complete financial and other history for the previous year).
Once again, very few high-schoolers are filling out income tax forms, and
the ones that do are probably using 1040EZ. I don't think you can find
out many innermost personal secrets from a 1040EZ. Also, I am certain
that income tax returns are not available to military recruiters.
Merritt
Dave W
Okay, make that mandate rather than mandage! Sorry. Loose fingers sink
ships, I guess.
DAve
dvs519
wrote:
>I did not know they where now requiring girls to sign up too.
>
>when did that law change?
>
>when you sign up all you have to give is your name address and birth date
>
>the schools are required to give up your grade and activities, club, sports
>and those medical records known by the school, and any problems you may
>have caused
>
>IN OTHER WORDS EVERYTHING THE SCHOOLS KNOWS ABOUT YOU MUST BE GIVEN TO THE
>GOVERMENT
>the pentagon spokesman did not say did but if you went to your school
>counselor with a problem I can believe that since it is part of your record
>it would be turn over
There are two different parts here.
FERPA-Family Education RIghts Privacy Act
Grades 13 and above, no one can access your academic records without
your written permission. Not even your parents even if you are under
18 years of age. School employees may have access to your records if
it a part of their job, like counselors, admissions & records staff,
academic deans, etc. Your disciplinary records are not kept with your
academic records, usually. Likewise your campus police records are
kept separately as well as your physical and mental health records.
You can give your permission for limited release of your records. Like
if you were on a sports team and you did not give your permission,
your name could not be in the program nor could it be announced over
the PA system nor could your name appear on our uniform. Likewise at
graduation, your name could not be announced as you walked across the
stage nor could your name be in the program.
SOLOMAN ACT - The military went crying to a US congressman because a
college denied them access to their college records to protest the
military's discrimination. The act says that the military can get just
about any information they want OR ALL Federal monies and grants will
be cut off from the school for 5 (five) years for each offense.
Police needed a subpoena to get individual records but under some
recent laws the FBI can come in and get some information right away
with some minor restrictions. This was after Sept. 11 but before the
Homeland Invasion of Privacy Act.
>
>they said they include it in the law because to many schools did not want
>them on campuses the spokesman said it would allow them to target the more
>acceptable students while lowing their cost per recruit
>
>income tax info is only where you work or earn money not any personal
>information
>
>> Those high-schoolers are already *REQUIRED* to register with the
>> Selective Service upon their 18th birthday. Also, I was fairly actively
>> recruited from my junior year until my mid twenties. I would have
>> likely been declared '4F' due to previous conditions had I tried to join
>> up with them, though.
>>
>> Besides, the Federal, most state and some city governments ALREADY have
>> *FULL* access to your most innermost personal secrets, it is via a
>> system called the 'income tax' (you know, those obnoxiously probing and
>> complex forms that you dutifully fill out every year, detailing your
>> complete financial and other history for the previous year).
====================
Dave by the Beach
Southern California
C. Wingate
http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=844511
Mostly what this is showing, IMHO, is that
(a) the law enforcement people don't understand railfanning,
(b) they have no idea whatsoever about any real threat to the railroads,
and
(c) they are quite willing to engage in dragnet operations.
It doesn't say one way or the other, but the fact that the fellow
interviewed was sitting in his car suggests that he wasn't trespassing
or doing anything that of itself is illegal. For this he was held by the
police and the FBI for something like five hours.
This demonstrates cluelessness. Maybe they think they will catch some
terrorists this way, but like a lot of the other stuff that's being done
or proposed, it's largely an ineffectual harassment of ordinary
citizens. It isn't going to catch any terrorists or even discourage any
terrorists; it may even make it more difficult to do so, because the
police will be busy rounding up obvious railfans rather than terrorists
who make any effort at concealment.
Hopefully the expense of doing this will eventually catch up wih law
enforcement, and they will get tired of the perpetual emergency and just
quit.
C. Wingate
Joshua E. Rodd
>>>Or simply lock you up without a charge for 24 hours. Indefinitely if you
>>>appear to be of middle eastern decent.
>>Or lock you up with a charge after planting illegal drugs on your
>>vehicle and/or person, especially if you appear to be of non-white
>>descent.
> Republicans doing so well?
I'm not an American and I don't vote for religious reasons...
There's not much anti-establishment feeling anyway. All most people
care about is having a job and a nice sports program at their local
school--not that I blame them. Unfortunately the desire to have a job
usually results in voting for the candidate who spent the most on stupid
TV commercials.
Jim Bernier
summer(via the internet). He has been actively 'recruited' ever since he was
about 16 in our local HS. With the need for 'skilled' personnel or at least folks
who can learn, the US Military is going to recruit there. Recruiters are visiting
the schools on a regular basis(from all branches of the service). My neighbor
across the street has had both of his sons serve in the Air Force, and my neighbor
down the street has a son in the Coast Gaurd. Now, I sort of doubt my son will
join(4 years seems 'forever'), but I have no problem with him being exposed to
this avenue; and for some families, this is a low cost educational option.
Jim Bernier
Martin Edwards
>As for the Republicans, sure, they won a lot of seats, but I'm not aware
>that there was anything approaching a mandage. Lots of very narrow
>victories is more like it. Of course if you're the winner, even by one
>vote, you get to call it a mandate anyway. Just ask George W. Bush.
>
>DAve
>
eligible voters voted. We've no cause for complacency over here, but
we do a little better than that.
Merritt Mullen
Jim Bernier <jrbe...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> My son is 18 and a senior in HS. He registered for Selective Service this
> past
> summer(via the internet). He has been actively 'recruited' ever since he was
> about 16 in our local HS. With the need for 'skilled' personnel or at least
> folks
> who can learn, the US Military is going to recruit there. Recruiters are
> visiting
> the schools on a regular basis(from all branches of the service). My
> neighbor
> across the street has had both of his sons serve in the Air Force, and my
> neighbor
> down the street has a son in the Coast Gaurd. Now, I sort of doubt my son
> will
> join(4 years seems 'forever'), but I have no problem with him being exposed
> to
> this avenue; and for some families, this is a low cost educational option.
>
> Jim Bernier
I agree. I think the military recruiting in high school is a good thing.
Most young people will benefit from a tour in the military before getting
on with their life. I am a strong believer in Universal Military Training
(including females), but conservative members of government would see that
as a welfare program (it is, of course, but shouldn't government programs
improve the public welfare?) and be against it.
Persons who concientously object to military service could serve in an
alternative government program.
Merritt
John Obert
recruiting
however the military objections to gays and lesbians more than offends me
and if the local community has laws against this type of recruitment the
government should not be able to force themselves in
what I object to is the giving of a student personal information to a
recruiter especially without the student or parents active consent
no other visitor to the school, company or colleges are given this imfo.
that they use this information then to target the boys and girls they want
is extremely offensive
theses are smart but street stupid and trusting kids who could have this
information used against them in pressure to join or have it used against
them to discourage them from joining
many including myself would agree with some form of universal service to
the government of a year away from the family home would be a good
randee
avoid military service in the old country (or to avoid the potato famine
if they came earlier). I was never in the military and certainly would
consider that an enormous waste of four (or however many) years.
Merritt Mullen wrote:
>
>
> I agree. I think the military recruiting in high school is a good thing.
> Most young people will benefit from a tour in the military before getting
> on with their life. I am a strong believer in Universal Military Training
> (including females), but conservative members of government would see that
> as a welfare program (it is, of course, but shouldn't government programs
> improve the public welfare?) and be against it.
>
> Persons who concientously object to military service could serve in an
> alternative government program.
>
> Merritt
--
wf.
Wayne Flowers
Randee Greenwald
ran...@zianet.com
DaveW
Merritt Mullen wrote:
>
> I agree. I think the military recruiting in high school is a good thing.
> Most young people will benefit from a tour in the military before getting
> on with their life. I am a strong believer in Universal Military Training
> (including females), but conservative members of government would see that
> as a welfare program (it is, of course, but shouldn't government programs
> improve the public welfare?) and be against it.
>
> Persons who concientously object to military service could serve in an
> alternative government program.
>
> Merritt
How about those who concientously object to government? :)
DAve
Merritt Mullen
wrote:
> Ah, but don't forget the main reason our grandfathers came here was to
> avoid military service in the old country (or to avoid the potato famine
> if they came earlier). I was never in the military and certainly would
> consider that an enormous waste of four (or however many) years.
If you were a male living in most parts of the US in the 1800, you would
have had no choice but to be in the local militia.
I think more people would benefit by a tour in the military, than would
find it a waste of time. Most people age 17 or so can benefit by the
maturing effect of military service before they get on with their life.
Merritt
Martin F. O'Rourke
Well said, Mr. Mullen, and one of those benefits can be paid higher
education. The army offers railroad ops training too.
dvs519
<mmull...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>In article <3DD9A009...@dataex.com>,
> "Michael G. Koerner" <mgk...@dataex.com> wrote:
>
>> John Obert wrote:
>> >
>> > all today on npr
>> >
>> > the pentagon will be supplied with the names and grades of all public high
>> > school seniors under the no child will be left behind act
>
>But not private high-school students? In other words, if your family is
>well off, you can avoid being indentified to the military?
Under FERPA ALL FEDERAL money is cut off. That includes military
surplus, school lunches, financial aid, library books, field trips to
federal sites, etc.
>
>> > all schools public and private taking federal money must allow the
>> > recruiters on campass
>> >
>> > according to pentagon spokesperson this is to make recruitment easier
>> > and maker sure they can operate in all schools
>>
>> Those high-schoolers are already *REQUIRED* to register with the
>> Selective Service upon their 18th birthday. Also, I was fairly actively
>> recruited from my junior year until my mid twenties. I would have
>> likely been declared '4F' due to previous conditions had I tried to join
>> up with them, though.
>
>Yeah, but very few high-schoolers are 18 years old. I was a freshman in
>college on my 18th birthday. Anyway, that data is for the Selective
>Service (draft); I am not sure it is available to recruiters (who are
>usually dealing with 17 year olds anyway).
>
>> Besides, the Federal, most state and some city governments ALREADY have
>> *FULL* access to your most innermost personal secrets, it is via a
>> system called the 'income tax' (you know, those obnoxiously probing and
>> complex forms that you dutifully fill out every year, detailing your
>> complete financial and other history for the previous year).
>
>Once again, very few high-schoolers are filling out income tax forms, and
>the ones that do are probably using 1040EZ. I don't think you can find
>out many innermost personal secrets from a 1040EZ. Also, I am certain
>that income tax returns are not available to military recruiters.
>
>Merritt
====================
John Obert
under the us constitution the congress has no right to pass this type of law
but they do have the ability of giving back your tax money by linking the
giving back of your money to obeying this regulation
do not use the word blackmail here since it is the federal government and
blackmail while defining the situation correctly is not PC
let us just call it trading your kid's rights for a little of your money
back
feel better now
what are you going to choose the 80% matching on the new gym? the school
lunch program? or giving up names to the military?
the law effects private schools to if they use the federal lunch program or
financial aid etc
but most private schools are religious and the feds do not have their
financial hooks into them as deep, it would be possible for them to opt out
of the programs without great cost
even the public schools could opt out, I think, but that means they would
have to increase taxes
lose rights or have a tax increase which do you think will win in your area
James Robinson
>
> under the us constitution the congress has no right to pass this type of law
> but they do have the ability of giving back your tax money by linking the
> giving back of your money to obeying this regulation
>
> do not use the word blackmail here since it is the federal government and
> blackmail while defining the situation correctly is not PC
Actually, to be pedantic, it is extortion, since blackmail is an
entirely different concept. It could also be called a quid pro quo.
In either case it is interesting, since such things are prohibited in
the business world, but perfectly acceptable in the political world.