NEC
|S| Tobias Koehler
I have a few questions about the NEC (Amtrak North East Corridor)
Boston---Washington.
1. What is the maximum speed allowed?
2. Which electric system do they use? (AC/DC, voltage, frequency)
3. What is the most important rolling material?
4. Are there new locomotives/trains ordered?
5. How many (passenger/freight) trains are there per day and direction?
Thanks
-=- tobi -=-
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
S_KO...@iravcl.ira.uka.de (|S| Tobias Koehler) writes:
>
>Hi,
>
>I have a few questions about the NEC (Amtrak North East Corridor)
>Boston---Washington.
>
I'm going to throw around a lot of place names, assuming you have a fairly
detailed map handy.
First, though, realize that the NEC is composed of two separate segments:
Boston - New Haven and New Haven - Washington. The New Haven - Washington
section is electrified, and passenger service is normally operated with
electric powered equipment. Even this, however, was two completely separate
lines until 1969. The Washington - New York portion was until then the
property of the Pennsylvania Railroad, while the New York - New Haven section
belonged to the New Haven Railroad (ignoring a few details of ownership in the
immediate vicinity of New York that are irrelevant to this discussion). Until
these two roads and the New York Central were combined into Penn Central in
1969, most service from New Haven and points east and north thereof ran into
Grand Central Terminal in New York, which is no longer used by Amtrak. A few
through trains did operate over both the Pennsylvania and New Haven Railroads,
running mostly between Washington and Boston, but such through trains were in
the minority until Amtrak took over and effectively made New York a "way
station" between Boston and Washington. As a result of the different ownership
and the difference in electrification dates (the New Haven electrification was
mostly done about 1905 while the Pennsylvania's in its current form was done in
the 1930s), there are many technical differences in the two systems which I am
not qualified to discuss. They are however sufficiently compatible that
electric locomotives are run through between Washington and New Haven, and have
been at least since about 1970.
From New Haven east to Boston, the route is not electrified, and all trains are
Diesel powered. A project to electrify this segment has just begun, and will
be several years in the doing.
>1. What is the maximum speed allowed?
>
something like: 90 mph Boston - Providence
80 mph Providence - New Haven
90 mph New Haven - New York
110 mph New York - Washington
with numerous local speed restrictions at various points along the way. Test
runs now being carried out with the Swedish train set (X2000?) and which will
later be done with German and French high speed train set are being allowed to
exceed normal maximum speeds under controlled test conditions. The eventual
aim is to upgrade the line so that most of it is good for speeds approaching
150 mph. Back in the 1960s, the Pennsylania Railroad's Metroliner electric
multiple unit trains were allowed at least 120 mph.
>2. Which electric system do they use? (AC/DC, voltage, frequency)
>
>3. What is the most important rolling material?
>
trains, there is very little freight run on the NEC. None at all on some parts
of it. See answers to #5.
>4. Are there new locomotives/trains ordered?
>
relatively new. Some of the New York - Philadelphia locals will be getting (or
perhaps already have) new "Horizon" cars, but don't expect any major order of
new equipment (locomotives or cars) for the Corridor until the electrification
project is well along and until Amtrak completes testing the European high
speed trains and decides on a set of specs for what it wants.
>5. How many (passenger/freight) trains are there per day and direction?
>
services. I'll list what I know and others will supply more detail.
There are four areas along the Corridor where there is local service operated
by or for agencies other than Amtrak. These are:
Boston - Providence
Old Saybrook - New Haven - New York - Trenton
Trenton - Philadelphia - Wilmington
Perryville - Baltimore - Washington
Amtrak OWNS the route from Washington north to New Rochelle and from New Haven
to the Rhode Island - Massachusetts border. (Unless NJT or SEPTA owns some of
it and I don't think they do.) The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority,
the agency responsible for local "Commuter Rail" (and other kinds of public
transportation) in the Boston area, OWNS the route between the Rhode Island -
Massachusetts line and Boston, but Amtrak operates both their own through
trains and the "Commuter Rail" trains under contract to the MBTA. Metro North
Commuter Rilroad (MNCR) operates the local trains between Grand Central
Terminal in New York and New Haven, which use the "Corridor Route" between New
Rochelle and New Haven. I THINK but am not certain that the States of New York
and Connecticut actually own the track within their States; some of the MNCR-
operated cars are owned by the Connecticut Department of Transportation; MNCR
itself owns the rest. MNCR is, I believe, an arm of the New York City
Metropolitan Transit Authority (That's probably not the correct name). Amtrak
CONTROLS the line for dispatching purposes between Washington and New Rochelle
and between New Haven and Boston; MNCR dispatches the portion between New
Rochelle and New Haven. Confused? If you aren't, you're better than I am!
At the present time, Amtrak is operating seven trains a day each way through
between Boston and Washington on the NEC. One of these is an overnight train
with sleeping cars between Boston and Washington (usually two). A third
sleeping car operates between New York and Washington; it is opened in Penn
Station, New York at 9:30 P.M. and is coupled to the train that arrives from
Boston at 3:10 A.M. In the opposite direction, this car is removed from the
through train when it arrives New York at 2:19 A.M. but passengers may remain
onboard the car until 8:00. Most (but not all) of the remaining 6 trains each
way offer some sort of meal service ("Sandwiches, snacks and Beverages") and
"Club Service", which the timetable defines as "Reserved First Class Service
with deluxe seating. Beverages and complimentary meals served at your seat."
Seat reservations for coach passengers are not offered. The trains can often
be severely over-crowded, with people sitting on luggage in the aisles or
standing. Checked baggage service is provided only on the overnight train and
only at the more important stops. Except for the overnight train, all of the
six southbound through trains and all but one (the last afternoon departure
from Washington) of the northbound through trains carry through cars between
Washington and Springfield that are added to the southbound trains at New Haven
or cut off from the northbound trains there. Two of these trains each way
operate through Springfield to/from Worcester and Boston, providing service
between Worcester and New York/Washington and between Boston and Hartford.
They also provide an alternate through route between Boston and Washington but
I doubt that very many people ever use it because it is about an hour slower.
In addition to the through trains, Amtrak also operates several runs that use
portions of the Corridor Route. They are (in no particular order):
The "Montrealer" operating daily overnight between Washington and
Montreal, and using the Corridor Route between Washington and New
London. It offers snack and beverage service and sleeping cars.
The "Bankers" an additional daily train between Washington and
Springfield that does not combine with a Boston train at New Haven
but runs by itself on the Corridor between New Haven and Washington.
The "Atlantic City Express" an additional daily train between
Springfield and Atlantic City that uses the Corridor between New Haven
and Frankford Junction (the point within the City of Philadelphia
where the line to Atlantic City joins the Corridor).
The "New England Express" - a (relatively) fast train that operates
between Boston and New York twice on Mondays through Fridays and once
each way on Saturdays and Sundays, with limited intermediate stops.
Reservations are required - club car and sandwich/snack/beverage
service are offered.
The "Benjamin Franklin" which is a "normal" Corridor train except that
it only operates between Boston and Philadelphia. It is the last
departure of the day from Boston (except for the overnight train) and
it is the first northbound in the morning. Northbound, it also
handles through cars for Springfield (that is why one of the Boston
trains doesn't).
An additional daily train between Atlantic City and Richmond and one
between Atlantic City and Washington. These trains use the Corridor
between Frankford Junction and Washington. They require coach seat
reservations, and offer "Sandwich, snack and beverage service".
Three daily trains run between New York and points on the former
Pennsylvania Railroad main line west from Philadelphia. One of them
is the "Broadway Limited" that is an overnight (and half-a-day) train
between New York and Chicago. It offers sleeping car and full dining
and lounge service, and requires seat reservations in the coaches. It
bypasses the main station in Philadelphia (30th Street), stopping only
at North Philadelphia, and does not carry passengers locally between
New York and North Philadelphia nor between North Philadelphia and
Harrisburg. The second is the "Pennsylvanian", which operates daily
between New York and Pittsburgh. It offers sandwich, snack and
beverage service. The third is a "semi-local" that runs through
between New York and Harrisburg. On weekdays, this effectively serves
as a long-distance commuter run, and it bypasses 30th Street station.
(There are several other daily trains between Philadelphia and
Harrisburg that make connections to/from New York.)
The "Clockers" are four trains that operate in semi-local service as
long-distance commuter trains between New York and Philadelphia.
Three of them run Monday through Fridays only, one TO Philadelphia
operates (at different times) on Saturday and Sunday evenings and
one FROM Philadelphia operates Saturday morning but not Monday morning
(when its schedule is assumed by a Monday morning only run from
Washington to New York). This train also operates from Wilmington TO
New York, having dead-headed down from Philadelphia early in the
morning.
The "Metroliners". The "true" Metroliners were high speed electric
multiple unit trains operated between New York and Washington by the
Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1960s (and by Penn Central in the 70s).
Amtrak has kept the name, but the trains are equipped with the same
locomotives and cars that run the "normal" Corridor trains except that
they tend to have more Club Cars. Seat reservations are required, and
generally speaking they make fewer stops - a "Non-stop Express" runs
between Washington and New York in 2 hours 35 minutes. If I have
counted correctly, there are 17 round trips between New York and
Washington on weekdays, 3 from New York to Washington and 4 from
Washington to New York on Saturdays, and 8 round trips on Sundays.
One weekday round trip is extended to/from New Haven. It operates
TO New Haven also on Sundays and through to Boston on Fridays.
"Congressional", etc. Old Pennsylvania Railroad names are used on a
few remaining non-Metroliner trains between New York and Washington.
There seem to be 3 such round trips on weekdays, four FROM New York
and 3 TO New York on Saturdays and 5 FROM New York and 4 TO New York
on Sundays. An additional train runs FROM New York to Washington on
Friday evenings and returns very early Monday morning (mentioned
above wneh talking about the "Clockers").
Several trains operate between New York and points south of Washington.
These are:
1.) The "Silver Meteor" and "Silver Star" which offer sleeping
car, coach, dining car and lounge service between New York and all
Florida points. Equipment mostly if not entirely "Heritage" cars -
cars generally built in the 1950s that Amtrak inherited from the
previous private companies and that have been completely refurbished
and equipped for head-end power. All space is reserved. Both operate
daily, and serve both Tampa and Miami.
2.) The "Palmetto" which runs between New York and Jacksonville
daily on a LONG daytime schedule. Coaches only - reserved seats -
"Amfleet II" cars - "Sandwich, snack and beverage service".
3.) The "Old Dominion" operates daily between New York, Richmond
and Newport News. Similar equipment to the "Palmetto". An extra
train on this run, called the "Tidewater" operates FROM New York to
Newport News on Fridays and from Newport News to New York on Fridays
and Sundays.
4.) The "Virginian" operates daily between New York and Richmond.
It is also Amfleet II equipment with reserved seat coaches and snack
and beverage service.
5.) The "Crescent" operates daily between New York and New Orleans.
It carries reserved seat coaches, sleeping cars, and dining and lounge
cars. I believe it is generally "Heritage" equipment. Some cars cut
off/add on at Birmingham to reach Mobile.
6.) The "Carolinian" operates daily between New York and Charlotte.
Its equipment and services are similar to the "Palmetto".
7.) The "Cardinal" operates three days a week between New York and
Chicago via Washington, Charleston (WV) and Cincinatti. It offers
reserved seat coaches, sleeping cars and dining and lounge service
with a mixture of "Heritage" and "Amfleet" equipment. It will become
a daily train when Amtrak gets enough new cars ("Viewliners") to
put on other trains from which Amfleet equipment can then be shifted
to the "Cardinal".
All Amtrak trains are locomotive-hauled. Diesel power is exclusively (somebody
correct me if that isn't true on the Corridor) F40PH (I may have the letters
in the wrong order) locomotives equipped for head-end power. In the electric
zone, most trains are pulled by AEM7s built by GE (?) and essentially copied
from a Swedish design. There are a few E60s, usually on the Florida trains or
the "Cardinal", but they have been troublesome and their speed is restricted I
think to 90 mph.
I don't think I've forgotten any Amtrak trains. Now for the local service!:
1.) Boston - Providence: operated by Amtrak as the contract
operator for the MBTA (Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority).
Most trains (7 days a week) operate between Boston and South Attleboro
(Last station in Massachusetts), but a few Monday through Friday at
commuter hours run between Boston and Providence. Some supplemental
service to intermediate points, including a branch to Stoughton.
Locomotives are F40PHs similar to Amtraks; coaches are a mixture of
Bombardier and Messerschmidt single-level and Japanese bi-levels.
2.) Old Saybrook - New Haven: operated by Amtrak as the contract
operator for the State of Connecticut. Relatively new service -
about two years old. I think it is still running only in weekday rush
hours but there has been talk of expanding service, and shoppers'
specials have been run at Christmastime. Coaches are I think built by
Bombardier. Locomotives are a variety, including a couple of ex-New
Haven Railroad FL-9 Diesel Electric-Electrics refurbished and painted
in their original New Haven color scheme.
3.) New Haven - New York: Operted by Metro North Commuter Railroad
on behalf of the New York Metropolitan Transit Authority and the
Connecticut Department of Transportation. All service runs into/out
of Grand Central Terminal in New York, and therefore uses the corridor
only between New Haven and New Rochelle. Most service is operated by
electric multiple unit cars, in trains at least as long as 12 cars.
Service operates all day seven days a week. Last time I checked, base
headway was hourly between New Haven and New York. Almost all New
Haven trains operate express between Stamford and New York; local
trains provide roughly half-hourly service between Stamford and New
York. NO LOCAL service operates into Penn Station New York from
Connecticut - only Amtrak through trains use the Corridor between
New Rochelle and Penn Station (to be totally accurate, Harold Inter-
locking) in passenger service. There are three branches: from Devon
(between Milford and Stratford) to Waterbury, from Norwalk to Danbury,
and from Stamford to New Canaan. The New Canaan Branch is electrified
and uses the same multiple unit cars. At the present time I do not
think there is any through service between New York and New Canaan
although there used to be in the commuter hours. Service to Waterbury
is normally operated by a short train of Bombardier coaches and I
don't know what locomotives, connecting with main line trains at
Bridgeport. They either have already or are about to start service
as well between Waterbury and New Haven. Service on the Danbury
Branch is I believe also provided by trains of Bombardier coaches, but
there may still be some "hand-me-down junk" still running there. One
or two weekday runs operate through to New York using FL9 locomotives.
All branches operate 7 days a week. The route into Grand Central
Terminal joins the "Harlem Branch", formerly owned by the New York
Central Railroad, at the New York City Line. From there into the
terminal, the power is supplied by a DC third rail (1500 volts?).
All multiple unit cars operated on the "New Haven Line" are capable of
operation both on the DC third rail and the AC overhead power supply.
The FL9 locomotive are a unique design (for the U.S.) that were built
for the New Haven Railroad in the 1950s and 1960s. In appearance they
resemble a standard (for that era) E unit. They can operate either
as Diesel-electrics, generating power on board in "normal" fashion, or
as straight electrics, drawing power from the DC third rail. They
were purchased originally to eliminate the necessity of changing
locomotives at New Haven on the through trains between Boston and
Grand Central Terminal. (Grand Central Terminal is underground, and
is reached by a 2-mile or so long tunnel where Diesel operation would
be impossible. The City of New York banned steam locomotives back
around 1910 and everything has been electrically powered since then.)
Metro North still has a few of these FL9s for service to Danbury (and
I think also Poughkeepsie on the "Hudson Line"), and Amtrak has a few
that they run between New York and Albany.
4.) New York - Trenton. Service operated by New Jersey Transit.
Frequent service all day and night, seven days a week. Base service
at least hourly. Additional local service between New York and New
Brunswick. Most service is by electric multiple unit cars in long
trains (I've recently seen 14 cars - maybe they run longer), but I
think that they fill in in rush hours with some trains of unknown
coaches pulled by AEM7s. One of the two or three heaviest travelled
commuter rail lines in the country. Branch (no through service) from
Princeton Junction to Princeton - a one-car (MU) shuttle as far as I
know. Branch from Rahway to Long Branch and Bay Head. This branch is
electrified as far as Long Branch. Through service is operated from
New York with some multiple-unit trains and some hauled by AEM7s.
Connecting Diesel shuttle Long Branch <-> Bay Head. A few rush hour
trains (Diesel powered) operate Hoboken <-> Bay Head, and I believe
there is still some Diesel powered Newark <-> Bay Head service as well
I have no idea what type of coaches are used in the locomotive-hauled
trains. Service to Long Branch and Bay Head is operated all day and
evening, seven days a week.
5.) Trenton - Philadelphia. Operated by Southeatern Pennsylvania
Transportation Authority (SEPTA). Electric multiple-unit trains.
Service operates seven days a week, all day and evening. Last time I
remember looking at a schedule, base service was hourly with more
trains in the rush hours, but SEPTA has been cutting back recently.
Through tickets sold New York <-> Philadelphia by NJT/SEPTA at a
considerably cheaper price than Amtrak charges. SEPTA trains run on
the Corridor (and on other lines as well) to 30th Street Station, then
follow a short branch into Penn Center and Market East Stations in
downtown ("Center City") Philadelphia. Most then continue on to one
of several destinations on the former Reading Railroad lines. This
line is relatively lightly used even for SEPTA, which is arguably the
worst commuter rail system operator in the U.S.
6.) Philadelphia - Wilmington - Newark (DE). Electric multiple-unit
trains operated by SEPTA. Most service runs between Philadelphia and
Wilmington (see comment above regarding "Center City"). I believe
that a few rush hour trains are extended to Newark but this may not
yet have begun. There used to be additional service between Chester
and Philadelphia, and I think there still is.
7.) Other Philadelphia area stuff. You can't get out of 30th Street
Station without using the Corridor for at least a short distance.
In addition to the Amtrak local service to Harrisburg that I already
mentioned, SEPTA runs trains (multiple unit electrics) to several
other destinations (Paoli, Chestnut Hill West, Philadelphia Inter-
national Airport, Media) that start their trip from 30th Street on the
Corridor for at least a few yards! Also, New Jersey Transit is
supposedly going to start soon running local service between Atlantic
City and 30th Street.
8.) Perryville - Baltimore. MARC (Maryland Commuter Rail Authority
I don't know the derivation of the acronym) operates a few (4?) trains
from Perryville into Baltimore in the weekday morning rush hours and
returning in the afternoon. There is talk of expanding the service,
but MARC is dreadfully short of equipment as their ridership is
expanding faster than they can keep up. I think the equipment is
Bombardier coaches hauled by Diesel locomotives, but somebody local
may know otherwise.
9.) Baltimore - Washington. MARC runs service all day and evening
but only on weekdays between Baltimore and Washington on the Corridor,
in addition to rush hours only service on a different route (ex_B&O).
Equipment is I believe all Bombardier coaches pulled by AEM7s on some
runs and Diesels (F40PH) on others. I don't think they have any
electric multiple unit equipment but I could be wrong.
Freight service? As I mentioned earlier, there is not much freight left on
the Corridor. Before about 1970, there was lots. The New Haven and the
Pennsylvania both used electric locomotives in freight service. The New Haven
ran them between Cedar Hill Yard, a couple of miles east of New Haven, and
various terminals in the New York area, notably Bay Ridge in Brooklyn. The
Pennsylvania ran them between several yards in the Jersey City/Kearny/Newark
area and Potomac Yard in Alexandria VA across the River from Washington, and
from the New Jersey points and Enola Yard near Harrisburg PA. The tunnels
under the East River and the Hudson River either side of New York were not
intended to be used in freight service, and freight trains have never been
run through them on a regular basis if ever. Freight between New England and
points beyond New York City was always either floted across New York Harbor
on barges equipped for handling rail cars or routed via the bridge across the
Hudson River at Poughkeepsie NY. As a result of all the changes in routings
that resulted from first, the combination of the New Haven, the Pennsylvania
and the New York Central into Penn Central, and second, the combination of
the Penn Central and several other railroads (notably in this context, the
Lehigh Valley, Reading and Jersey Central) into Conrail, freight to and from
New England now almost entirely goes through Selkirk Yard near Albany NY,
completely bypassing the New York City area. Similarly, Conrail has found it
to be to their advantage to route freight west from New York over the former
Lehigh Valley and Reading lines to Harrisburg and thence south or west from
there rather than through Trenton, Philadelphia and Washington as the Pennsy
used to do. Since none of these routes are electrified, all use of electric
freight locomotives has ended. Furthermore, as we said earlier, Amtrak owns
(most of) the Corridor, doesn't want freight trains on it interfering with its
pasenger service, and accordingly has imposed severe speed restrictions,
operating hours limitations and charged high prices for running rights all of
which has further encouraged Conrail to avoid using the Corridor for freight.
At the present time, Conrail operates a few locals in the Boston - Attleboro
area, serving local industries. The Providence and Worcester Railroad has been
given freight operating rights between Providence and New Haven, and runs local
freight service as required by the industries in the area. All freight handled
by the P&W comes down from Worcester.
Between New Haven and New York, Conrail operates local freights as needed, and
provides a through run to service the Long Island Railroad and the New York
Cross Harbor Railroad, which operates the remnant of a once-large car float
business in New York Harbor. I think this through freight comes down from
Selkirk (Albany) to Mott Haven in the Bronx, then doubles back up the Metro
North Line to New Rochelle, and then reverses again to go over the bridge to
Long Island. This may not be accurate, but I can't imagine any other way it
could go!
Between New York and Washington, there is considerably more industry, and as a
result, there is more freight service, but it only locals, as all through
freight uses other routings. That doesn't mean you wouldn't see several trains
a day, though, in the area around Newark/Elizabeth/Linden NJ or close to either
Philadelphia, Wilmington or Baltimore. There's enough industry in these places
to keep quite a few local freights busy. I don't know any of the details,
though.
There is a very fine magazine, called RAILPACE, that specializes in Northeast
U.S. railroading (and a little Eastern Canada as well). Reading it would give
you a wealth of information about all these lines.
Hope this hasn't been too long to be useful!
>Thanks
>
>-=- tobi -=-
Len Bachelder Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp. Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730 Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00...@mbvm.mitre.org>
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
- Charles Wesley
Ron Newman
I'll add a few notes about MBTA local service in the Boston area:
|> 1.) Boston - Providence: operated by Amtrak as the contract
|> operator for the MBTA (Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority).
|> Most trains (7 days a week) operate between Boston and South Attleboro
|> (Last station in Massachusetts), but a few Monday through Friday at
|> commuter hours run between Boston and Providence. Some supplemental
|> service to intermediate points, including a branch to Stoughton.
|> Locomotives are F40PHs similar to Amtraks; coaches are a mixture of
|> Bombardier and Messerschmidt single-level and Japanese bi-levels.
Six commuter rail services operate out of Boston South Station, and
it could be argued that all of them use the Northeast Corridor for
at least a short section of their route. Len has already mentioned
the Attleboro/Providence and Stoughton lines; I'll briefly list the
other four here. All except the first now run 7 days a week.
Boston - Readville via "Midland" Branch: leaves the NEC almost
immediately after it leaves South Station, making several local stops
in Dorchester and Hyde Park, and terminating at Readville (where it
meets the NEC again). This is a shuttle service that runs half-hourly
at rush hours and hourly at other times, Monday through Friday only.
A few of these shuttles actually run through to Franklin (see below)
or Attleboro, I believe. These are the only trains out of South Station
that do not stop at Back Bay.
Boston - Framingham: branches off the NEC between South Station
and Back Bay. (NEC and this service both stop at Back Bay, but on
separate platforms.) Continues west on the former Boston & Albany
line, making local stops in Newton, Wellesley, Natick, and Framingham.
This line (and its Framingham stop) is also used by the Amtrak's
twice-daily "Inland Route" trains (Boston-New York via Worcester,
Springfield, and Hartford), and by a branch of Amtrak's
"Lake Shore Limited" (Boston-Chicago via Albany). There is some
talk of extending MBTA commuter service to Worcester.
Boston - Needham: branches off the NEC at Forest Hills in
Jamaica Plain (which is a stop on the MBTA Orange Line, but not an
Amtrak stop). Single track service makes several local stops in
West Roxbury and Needham. Some talk of extending it into Dover or
other suburbs further southwest.
Boston - Franklin: follows the NEC to Readville, then branches
off to make local stops in Dedham, Norwood, and other suburbs
southwest of Boston. There's some talk of extending it to Bellingham.
--------
Ron Newman rne...@bbn.com
Jon Roma
>>1. What is the maximum speed allowed?
>It varies. I don't have Employees' Timetables here at the office, but it's
>something like: 90 mph Boston - Providence
> 80 mph Providence - New Haven
> 90 mph New Haven - New York
> 110 mph New York - Washington
The maximum speed permitted on the Northeast Corridor is 125 mph (about
200 km/hr). As Len noted, speeds vary widely depending on physical
characteristics of the line. Also, certain equipment is restricted to
110 mph or lower. All of the 125 mph running is between New York and
Washington but there is some 100+ mph running north of New Haven.
> Freight service? As I mentioned earlier, there is not much freight left on
>the Corridor. Before about 1970, there was lots.
Perhaps someone local to the NEC can explain in more detail but my
recollection is that regular freight operation on the Corridor continued
at least up to the time of the Conrail merger and Amtrak's concurrent
acquisition of the NEC from Penn Central in 1976. Only after the infusion
of millions of dollars for the Northeast Corridor Improvement Program in
the late seventies did Amtrak begin to actively discourage freight
operations on the NEC.
--
Jon Roma
Computing and Communications Services Office,
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Internet: ro...@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!roma
Randy Lambertus
the extent of the fire. In all the literature I read they allude to
the damage by the fire, but never describe the circumstances or
the actual results. Was this a wooden bridge that was completely
burned or a steel structure that warped and feel. If it was steel
how could a fire destroy it unless it was the ties that contributed
to the blaze.
Just where was the bridge located in relation to the Bear Mountain
auto bridge? North or south, and could you see the old New Haven
bridge fom there? I am interested because I feel the demise of
the Erie-Lackawanna was probably accelerated due to the loss of
New England traffic from/to Maybrook.
Randy Lambertus Cray Research, Region 4 r...@uk.cray.com
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Allon Percus
> Several trains operate between New York and points south of Washington.
> These are:
>...
> 2.) The "Palmetto" which runs between New York and Jacksonville
> daily on a LONG daytime schedule. Coaches only - reserved seats -
> "Amfleet II" cars - "Sandwich, snack and beverage service".
>...
> 6.) The "Carolinian" operates daily between New York and Charlotte.
> Its equipment and services are similar to the "Palmetto".
So I myself had hoped, but unfortunately when I took the Carolinian
in December it was 12 hours each way of "Amfleet I" material...
(this is not fun!).
Allon Percus
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
r...@ferris.cray.com (Randy Lambertus) writes:
>
> Very nice article Len. About the Poughkeepsie bridge, what was
>the extent of the fire. In all the literature I read they allude to
>the damage by the fire, but never describe the circumstances or
>the actual results. Was this a wooden bridge that was completely
>burned or a steel structure that warped and feel. If it was steel
>how could a fire destroy it unless it was the ties that contributed
>to the blaze.
>
> Just where was the bridge located in relation to the Bear Mountain
>auto bridge? North or south, and could you see the old New Haven
>bridge fom there? I am interested because I feel the demise of
>the Erie-Lackawanna was probably accelerated due to the loss of
>New England traffic from/to Maybrook.
>
Yes, it's a steel bridge and it's still standing. The track structure was
pretty well destroyed on the western half of the bridge - ties burned, rails
bent out of shape, etc. By the time it burned, service to Maybrook had been
reduced to nearly nothing - in fact, I think I remember that the line was
already out of service before the fire. Penn Central management had decided
that it was more economic to route traffic into and out of New England via
Selkirk than via Maybrook. Although I share your opinion that the dry-up of
the Maybrook gateway was a significant factor in the decline of the E-L, and
although the E-L was my favorite U.S. railroad after my home B&M and MEC, I am
of the opinion that this was one of the few intelligent decisions made by the
Penn Central management. I think the E-L could have survived without Maybrook
(though the L&HR probably could not have) and I agree with the generally
accepted thesis that Hurricane Hazel (or was it one of her sisters) was the
real cause of the E-L's death. I think that without that storm, they could
have survived and trudged the long road back to solvency just as the B&M did.
(This is not the place to decry the B&M's later inclusion in the Guilford mess)
Getting back to Poughkeepsie, the bridge is way north of Bear Mountain. It is
on the north side of the City of Poughkeepsie. As I said, it's still standing.
I think I remember that there is also a highway bridge in Poughkeepsie, and if
there is, the railroad bridge would be north of it and I am sure would be
visible from the road.
The fire did little if any damage, as I recall, to the bridge structure itself.
Just destroyed the railroad on it. There was some talk, never proven, that the
fire was deliberately set. Certainly by the time it happened, the PC would
have been glad to be rid of the Bridge by any means, but I seriously doubt that
they would have deliberately torched it, though some vagrant may have set it on
fire. Did you know that prior to the completion of the Hell Gate Bridge Route
some through passenger train service between Boston and (at least) Harrisburg
and Baltimore was operated over the Poughkeepsie Bridge?
dave pierson
>In article <1jjf1o...@iraul1.ira.uka.de>
>S_KO...@iravcl.ira.uka.de (|S| Tobias Koehler) writes:
>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I have a few questions about the NEC (Amtrak North East Corridor)
>>Boston---Washington.
>>
>I'll start, and I'm sure others will comment as well.
>
>and the difference in electrification dates (the New Haven electrification was
>mostly done about 1905 while the Pennsylvania's in its current form was done in
>the 1930s), there are many technical differences in the two systems which I am
>not qualified to discuss. They are however sufficiently compatible that
>electric locomotives are run through between Washington and New Haven, and have
>been at least since about 1970.
Actaully, they were pretty compatible, from 1920ish on. The power
didn't run thru because that "wasn't done", at the time. Earlier, Penn
Staion was third rail, 600VDC, overrunning third rail, so either
PRR DD1 e-loks or NH power with thrid rail shoes (also used elsewhere)
ran into Penn Station.
>>1. What is the maximum speed allowed?
>It varies. I don't have Employees' Timetables here at the office, but it's
>something like: 90 mph Boston - Providence
> 80 mph Providence - New Haven
> 90 mph New Haven - New York
> 110 mph New York - Washington
Much of NY-Washington is run at 120 MPH by all trains (i've timed them.)
and faster by the "metroliners".
>>2. Which electric system do they use? (AC/DC, voltage, frequency)
>>
>AC. 11,000 volts I believe. 60 hz?
Varies, depending on where one is. When first electrified thru, it was
11KVAC/25Hz, catenary, all the way. About 10 years back, the portion
from Woodlawn, NY to New Haven, CT was changed to 12KV/60Hz. (commercial
US power frequency.) Thru AMTRAK trains run thru a frequency gap just
before New Rochelle NY. (From Woodlawn to Grand Central Station, NY,
now solely commuter operation, is 660VDC Underrunning third rail. The
trackage used by NEC trains to enter NY Penn Station is also electrified
with Pennsylvania RR/Long Island RR 600VDC overruning third rail,
for use by the Commuter trains Len describes later. The EMU's to GCT
run off both types of electrification, with changeover on the move.)
>All Amtrak trains are locomotive-hauled. Diesel power is exclusively (somebody
>correct me if that isn't true on the Corridor) F40PH (I may have the letters
>in the wrong order) locomotives equipped for head-end power. In the electric
>zone, most trains are pulled by AEM7s built by GE (?) and essentially copied
>from a Swedish design.
Think of an RC4...
> All branches operate 7 days a week. The route into Grand Central
> Terminal joins the "Harlem Branch", formerly owned by the New York
> Central Railroad, at the New York City Line. From there into the
> terminal, the power is supplied by a DC third rail (1500 volts?).
600/660VDC
(oooops. too many deletes. Newark Service....)
> Frequent service all day and night, seven days a week. Base service
> at least hourly. Additional local service between New York and New
> Brunswick. Most service is by electric multiple unit cars in long
> trains (I've recently seen 14 cars - maybe they run longer), but I
> think that they fill in in rush hours with some trains of unknown
> coaches pulled by AEM7s.
While they look like AEM7s (RC4's), they are a separate, tho
very similar design, closer to the parent RC4's. i think
purchased direct from ABB(?). (The AEM7s were EMD built.)
thanks
dave pierson |the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation |the opinions, my own.
40 Old Bolton Rd |I am the NRA.
Stow, Mass, USA
01775 pie...@msd26.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing." A J Raffles
Derrick J. Brashear
> The "Metroliners". The "true" Metroliners were high speed electric
> multiple unit trains operated between New York and Washington by the
> Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1960s (and by Penn Central in the 70s).
> Amtrak has kept the name, but the trains are equipped with the same
> locomotives and cars that run the "normal" Corridor trains except that
> they tend to have more Club Cars. Seat reservations are required, and
> generally speaking they make fewer stops - a "Non-stop Express" runs
> between Washington and New York in 2 hours 35 minutes. If I have
> counted correctly, there are 17 round trips between New York and
> Washington on weekdays, 3 from New York to Washington and 4 from
> Washington to New York on Saturdays, and 8 round trips on Sundays.
> One weekday round trip is extended to/from New Haven. It operates
> TO New Haven also on Sundays and through to Boston on Fridays.
>
The Pennsy never ran the Metroliner cars as Metroliners in regular service. They had their inaugural run as Metroliners after the Penn Central merger. There was a good article in Trains, I think February 1969.
> 2.) Old Saybrook - New Haven: operated by Amtrak as the contract
> operator for the State of Connecticut. Relatively new service -
> about two years old. I think it is still running only in weekday rush
> hours but there has been talk of expanding service, and shoppers'
> specials have been run at Christmastime. Coaches are I think built by
> Bombardier. Locomotives are a variety, including a couple of ex-New
> Haven Railroad FL-9 Diesel Electric-Electrics refurbished and painted
> in their original New Haven color scheme.
If I'm not mistaken, this is the service which was initiated with the former Port Authority of Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) PaTrain sets. 2 control cab coach cars, 2 rebuilt F-9's, and I think 10 coaches. I saw one of our former F-9's on point of a string on the coaches last spring when going through New Haven on the Night Owl to Boston. The engine was in New Haven colors but still carried it's Pittsburgh # (6690 or 6691)
-D
<sha...@alycia.andrew.cmu.edu>
George Robbins
>
> >2. Which electric system do they use? (AC/DC, voltage, frequency)
> >
> AC. 11,000 volts I believe. 60 hz?
Still 25 Hz on some legs apparently.
> 6.) Philadelphia - Wilmington - Newark (DE). Electric multiple-unit
> trains operated by SEPTA. Most service runs between Philadelphia and
> Wilmington (see comment above regarding "Center City"). I believe
> that a few rush hour trains are extended to Newark but this may not
> yet have begun. There used to be additional service between Chester
> and Philadelphia, and I think there still is.
Depending on funding not all trains make it into Wilmington (Delaware), with
the last stop being Chester or Marcus Hook. Not sure of the latest status of
this or the Newark extension (~15 miles/two local station beyond Wilmington)
> 7.) Other Philadelphia area stuff. You can't get out of 30th Street
> Station without using the Corridor for at least a short distance.
> In addition to the Amtrak local service to Harrisburg that I already
> mentioned, SEPTA runs trains (multiple unit electrics) to several
> other destinations (Paoli, Chestnut Hill West, Philadelphia Inter-
> national Airport, Media) that start their trip from 30th Street on the
> Corridor for at least a few yards! Also, New Jersey Transit is
> supposedly going to start soon running local service between Atlantic
> City and 30th Street.
Not exactly true - The NEC runs "through" the basement concourse, while the
commuter lines run crosswise through the upper level. I don't know the exact
routing off all the commuter lines into the station, but some, at least the
Paoli Local don't (obviously) tread on the corridor.
Quite a little document you posted there!
--
George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing: uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department domain: g...@cbmvax.commodore.com
Randy Lambertus
>>
>fire. Did you know that prior to the completion of the Hell Gate Bridge Route
>some through passenger train service between Boston and (at least) Harrisburg
>and Baltimore was operated over the Poughkeepsie Bridge?
>
>Len Bachelder Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
The first time I heard about traffic to NE through Poughkeepsie was last
year in this newsgroup during the thread about the Hell Gate Bridge. It
seems I learn something new all the time from the vast knowledge of the
group.
Speaking of which, I have been participating in a discussion in the
alt.tv.simpsons group about the Marge vs. the Monorail episode. During
the show as the monorail accelerates to warp speed, a Springfield Monorail
sticker is torn off revealing the words New York World's Fair. To
illustrate what the original monorail looked like I scanned two pictures
I have in my NYWF collection into B&W Gifs and put them on wuarchive in
the incoming directory under /graphics/trains (well they are sort of).
The responses back indicate the show featured a monorail more like the
Walt Disney type, ie staddling a beam rather than hanging from a rail.
Anyway the pictures are there for anyone intered, mono.1.GIF and
mono.2.GIF.
The question I have is who built the thing in the first place? I know
AMF sponsored it, but did they also construct it? I can't believe a
sporting equipment company would go to all that trouble for a one off
system. Especially since no more were ever built to my knowledge. The
second question is where did it go after the Fair? My feeling is that
it was engineered and constucted in Europe, being more suited to the
Wuppertal type of hanging monrail. Since this is almost 29 years after
the opening of the Fair, I don't expect many to know the exact details
much less have seen it or actually rode it (I did though!). But as
usual I do expect to be surprised by the wealth of knowledge squirrelled
away by the groups members.
Just something to occupy your collective time!
Randy Lambertus Cray Research, Region 4 r...@uk.cray.com
*******************************************************************************
______________________________________________________ __________________
//]]]]_______________________________________| ____ | |
// ,----------------------------------------| |____| | |------------------
[| /_________________________________________| 5450 | |==== NEW YORK CENT
\\ /_||_ /o o\ /o \___________________| |_|------------------
/o/|____| | o o| | o o| | o o| \ \__ |_|
/o/_|____|==(o)============(o)=======(o)= \____\_______|=|
/o/(_)===(_) \o_ _o/ \o_ _o/ \o_ _o/ [=(_)===(_)=] `----(_)-(_)-(_)---
Randy Lambertus
>sticker is torn off revealing the words New York World's Fair. To
>illustrate what the original monorail looked like I scanned two pictures
I almost forgot, on the back of the postcard (mono.1.GIF) the
following is written:
THE AMF MONORAIL
New York World's Fair 1964-65
"Peace through Understanding"
"The AMF Monorail ride at the New York World's Fair provides every
member of the family with an enjoyable new experience aboard the
transportation of the future. While riding in silent air-conditioned
comfort three stories above ground, passengers see and can photograph
many scenic Fair sights during the eight minute trip. Many riders
return for a nighttime view of the Fair. Shown is one of seven
two-car trains which transport passengers to and from the spectacular
eighty-foot high station."
Question: Is it the "future" yet?
Randy Lambertus Cray Research, Region 4 r...@uk.cray.com
===============================================================================
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____\~~~~~~~~~~\______________________/~~~~~~~~~~|_____ _____|~~~~~~~~~~\
/_____\__________\____________________/___________|_____||_____|___________\
| \ | | | | | | | | | || | | | |
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\/ \___|_|_|___________________________|_|_|__________||__________|_|_|___
\_____________________________________________________||__________________
AMF MONORAIL - 1964-65 New York World's Fair
Michael Stimac
> Actaully, they were pretty compatible, from 1920ish on. The power
> didn't run thru because that "wasn't done", at the time. Earlier, Penn
> Staion was third rail, 600VDC, overrunning third rail, so either
> PRR DD1 e-loks or NH power with thrid rail shoes (also used elsewhere)
^^^^^^
BLECHHH!
> ran into Penn Station.
"Motors", please!!!
e-loks, indeed :-( humpf!
Michael Stimac
news fodder
news fodder
news fodder
news fodder
news fodder
--
Michael Stimac
(415) 355-8889
ro...@tymnet.com
These opinions are not necessarily anyone's but my own.
Michael Stimac
>In article <16B5CF00...@MBVM.Mitre.Org> M00...@MBVM.Mitre.Org writes:
>> 7.) Other Philadelphia area stuff. You can't get out of 30th Street
>> Station without using the Corridor for at least a short distance.
>> In addition to the Amtrak local service to Harrisburg that I already
>> mentioned, SEPTA runs trains (multiple unit electrics) to several
>> other destinations (Paoli, Chestnut Hill West, Philadelphia Inter-
>> national Airport, Media) that start their trip from 30th Street on the
>> Corridor for at least a few yards! Also, New Jersey Transit is
>Not exactly true - The NEC runs "through" the basement concourse, while the
>commuter lines run crosswise through the upper level. I don't know the exact
>routing off all the commuter lines into the station, but some, at least the
>Paoli Local don't (obviously) tread on the corridor.
This cannot pass unchallenged!
The suburban station tracks proceed to the "Main Line" (i.e. to Paoli
for example) via Zoo Junction.
George, are you trying to claim that *some* of the tracks in Zoo Junction
are part of the corridor while some other tracks are *not* part of the
corridor?
That's pretty darn nit-picky, and I doubt if you'll find very many
railroaders who would agree that "part" of Zoo Junction is not the
corridor.
NB - the term "Main Line" has a both a general and a special meaning
with regard to the Pennsy in Philadelphia. The general meaning is
what you would expect, the special meaning is those tracks departing
Zoo Junction to the west up to about Paoli. The term also includes
the towns and real estate within several miles of such track.
Michael Stimac
Joseph Brennan
Stimac) writes:
>>routing off all the commuter lines into the station, but some, at least the
>>Paoli Local don't (obviously) tread on the corridor.
>
>This cannot pass unchallenged!
The point, and worth making I think, is that 30th St upper level to
Main Line does not share any track with Northeast Corridor (30th St
lower to New York), and can be operated separately. Sure, in one
sense the Zoo triangle is on the corridor-- for train watching as an
example, and if one were to diagram the trackage I'd like to see all
of Zoo shown-- but for operations, part of it isn't.
Joe Brennan Columbia University in the City of New York
("affiliation shown for identification only")
via Internet: bre...@columbia.edu
via BITNET: brennan@cunixf
Howard Wharton
>In article <1993Jan21....@ryn.mro4.dec.com> pie...@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson) writes:
>
>> Actaully, they were pretty compatible, from 1920ish on. The power
>> didn't run thru because that "wasn't done", at the time. Earlier, Penn
>> Staion was third rail, 600VDC, overrunning third rail, so either
>> PRR DD1 e-loks or NH power with thrid rail shoes (also used elsewhere)
>
> ^^^^^^
> BLECHHH!
>
>> ran into Penn Station.
>
>
into GCT were designed to run on NYCs underrunning 3rd rail not on
PRR/LIRR overrunning third rail. I belive that the FL-9s shoes could be
changed to over or underrunning.
Michael Stimac
>In article <32...@tymix.Tymnet.COM> ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael
>Stimac) writes:
>>>routing off all the commuter lines into the station, but some, at least the
>>>Paoli Local don't (obviously) tread on the corridor.
>>This cannot pass unchallenged!
>The point, and worth making I think, is that 30th St upper level to
>Main Line does not share any track with Northeast Corridor (30th St
>lower to New York), and can be operated separately. Sure, in one
>sense the Zoo triangle is on the corridor-- for train watching as an
>example, and if one were to diagram the trackage I'd like to see all
>of Zoo shown-- but for operations, part of it isn't.
Zoo Junction *is* part of the corridor! What do you think, that
they have a different set of tower operators for some tracks than
others, and that they are on different payrolls, and that they
buy the electricity for the different wires from a different
electric company!
Zoo is all one plant; and the switches that the Paoli local goes
over are interlocked with the switches that the Metroliners go over.
So, for operations, they cannot be "operated separately".
If you're trying to say that there is no piece of rail N feet
long over which both the Metroliners and the Paoli local pass,
that may well be so. That is very different from trying to say
that a few of the tracks in Zoo are part of the corridor and
a few of them are not.
Next you'll tell me that 0 track and 5 track, et al, are not
part of the corridor either! Get real!
George Robbins
> The question I have is who built the thing in the first place? I know
> AMF sponsored it, but did they also construct it? I can't believe a
> sporting equipment company would go to all that trouble for a one off
> system.
AMF -> American Machine & Foundry (If I remember this factoid right),
which was proably only into sporting goods and motorcycles through
diversification.
George Robbins
> >In article <16B5CF00...@MBVM.Mitre.Org> M00...@MBVM.Mitre.Org writes:
>
>
> >> 7.) Other Philadelphia area stuff. You can't get out of 30th Street
> >> Station without using the Corridor for at least a short distance.
> >> In addition to the Amtrak local service to Harrisburg that I already
> >> mentioned, SEPTA runs trains (multiple unit electrics) to several
> >> other destinations (Paoli, Chestnut Hill West, Philadelphia Inter-
> >> national Airport, Media) that start their trip from 30th Street on the
> >> Corridor for at least a few yards! Also, New Jersey Transit is
>
> >Not exactly true - The NEC runs "through" the basement concourse, while the
> >commuter lines run crosswise through the upper level. I don't know the exact
> >routing off all the commuter lines into the station, but some, at least the
> >Paoli Local don't (obviously) tread on the corridor.
>
> This cannot pass unchallenged!
>
> The suburban station tracks proceed to the "Main Line" (i.e. to Paoli
> for example) via Zoo Junction.
>
> George, are you trying to claim that *some* of the tracks in Zoo Junction
> are part of the corridor while some other tracks are *not* part of the
> corridor?
>
> That's pretty darn nit-picky, and I doubt if you'll find very many
> railroaders who would agree that "part" of Zoo Junction is not the
> corridor.
Well, I don't know if it's nit-picking or not, but I felt that the original
posting gave the impression that all the commuter runs arrived or departed
on the north/south mainline (aka NEC) before diverging onto different branches.
This would be incorrect, since the Paoli Local runs directly out the
East-West (Harrisburg) mainline, after admittedly wandering through
one edge of the Zoo interlocking.
Whether this is "starting on the corridor", crossing the corridor or
using facilities part of the corridor seems mostly a matter of definition
and "Northeast Corridor" may or may not be that precisely defined.
> NB - the term "Main Line" has a both a general and a special meaning
> with regard to the Pennsy in Philadelphia. The general meaning is
> what you would expect, the special meaning is those tracks departing
> Zoo Junction to the west up to about Paoli. The term also includes
> the towns and real estate within several miles of such track.
Yeah, growing up in Delaware near the north-south "main line", I was
eventually surprised to find out that the "Main Line" was on some
other line. Of course the north-south line wasn't even the "Pennsy"
until sometime in the early 1900's...
Stupid Questions:
What is the burned out elevated station (kind of on a bridge where
one line passes over the other) between Overbrook and 30'th street?
When was it last in service?
Is there one other electrified branch heading northwest from the west
end of Zoo? Riding past on the Paoli Local I see tracks, but can't
tell what's going on. One of these days, I'll have to buy survey
maps and trace out the different branches, past and present.
dave pierson
(Howard Wharton) writes, in part:
>In article <32...@tymix.Tymnet.COM>, ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac)
>writes...
>>In article <1993Jan21....@ryn.mro4.dec.com>
>>pie...@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson) writes:
>>
>>> Actaully, they were pretty compatible, from 1920ish on. The power
>>> didn't run thru because that "wasn't done", at the time. Earlier, Penn
>>> Staion was third rail, 600VDC, overrunning third rail, so either
>>> PRR DD1 e-loks or NH power with thrid rail shoes (also used elsewhere)
>>> ran into Penn Station.
> Power (motors) were changed at Sunnyside...New Haven's motors that ran
>into GCT were designed to run on NYCs underrunning 3rd rail not on
>PRR/LIRR overrunning third rail. I belive that the FL-9s shoes could be
>changed to over or underrunning.
hmmmm. This is not real well documented, and may have changed from
generation to generation of the NH Electrics. I believe that any
purchased after the NY Connecting (the line from New Rochelle to
Harold) had three way shoes: all the way up, overrunning, underrruning.
The NH Employee TT certainly refers to NH locos equipped to run into
Penn Station: They needed ATS to meet PRR requirements for tunnel ops.
A change of power in Penn Station would save a stop at Harold. Harold
also seems to be referenced in the NH Employee TT as the dividing line:
specific reference is made to rake off blocks at Harold. (these would
knock off 3rd rail shoes, in case they hadn't raised, to prevent the
shoes fouling something further along.)
dave pierson
Lambertus) writes, in part:
> Speaking of which, I have been participating in a discussion in the
>alt.tv.simpsons group about the Marge vs. the Monorail episode. During
> The question I have is who built the thing in the first place? I know
>AMF sponsored it, but did they also construct it? I can't believe a
>sporting equipment company would go to all that trouble for a one off
>system.
If memory serves, AMF is(was...) American Machine and Foundry. They
made a variety of rail products, i think the may have cast steam loco
frames at one point. I know they did RR trucks. The "sporting"
incarnation is fairly recent.
Michael Stimac
>What is the burned out elevated station (kind of on a bridge where
>one line passes over the other) between Overbrook and 30'th street?
>When was it last in service?
That is the former Overbrook Station. I have a 1955 timetable that
shows trains stopping there. I've no info on when it was closed.
I do remember it being "burned out" in the early '70s.
>Is there one other electrified branch heading northwest from the west
>end of Zoo? Riding past on the Paoli Local I see tracks, but can't
>tell what's going on. One of these days, I'll have to buy survey
>maps and trace out the different branches, past and present.
That would be the Belmont branch. It's a double-track line, but
wasn't electrified. I think this is because it was a freight line,
not a commuter line, but I'm not certain of this. I'm pretty sure
it was a connection to the Reading as well.
Michael Stimac
>In article <38...@cbmvax.commodore.com> g...@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) wrotes:
>>Is there one other electrified branch heading northwest from the west
>>end of Zoo? Riding past on the Paoli Local I see tracks, but can't
>>tell what's going on. One of these days, I'll have to buy survey
>>maps and trace out the different branches, past and present.
>
>That would be the Belmont branch. It's a double-track line, but
>wasn't electrified. I think this is because it was a freight line,
>not a commuter line, but I'm not certain of this. I'm pretty sure
>it was a connection to the Reading as well.
>
Ooops! Just re-read your question, and you specifically asked about
an electrified branch. There is the Schuylkill Branch which takes
off from the Main Line at 52nd Street (not exactly Zoo, but only
3.9 miles from Suburban Station).
This line is (was?) electrifed as far as Norristown, going through such
towns as Bala, Cynwyd, Manayunk, Conshohocken, and Ivy Rock. Beyond
Norristown the line continues to a junction with the Lehigh Valley
at Laurel Junction passing such towns as Phoenixville, Pottstown,
Birdsboro, Shoemakersville, Pottsville, and New Boston.
(I love those Pennsylvania town names :-)
Thor Lancelot Simon
>the extent of the fire. In all the literature I read they allude to
>the damage by the fire, but never describe the circumstances or
>the actual results. Was this a wooden bridge that was completely
>burned or a steel structure that warped and feel. If it was steel
>how could a fire destroy it unless it was the ties that contributed
>to the blaze.
It's a steel structure which in fact still exists. PC had been skimping on
their maintenance to the point where the rail was so loose that the bridge
was operated under a rule of no brakes whatsoever. As their financial troubles
worsened, New York state considered bailing them out for repairs to the bridge
and I believe talks were underway when the ties caught fire, doing some fairly
substantial structural damage. This was around the time the PC went into
bankruptcy, so there wasn't much money around to fix things; moreover the state
comissioned the PC to determine the extent of damages, saying that they'd pay
if it was less than $X (where X is some number I don't really recall, and which
may never have been exactly fixed anyway). The Poughkeepsie bridge was actually
rather a thorn in the side of the PC anyway, as when it existed the railroad
couldn't charge the mileage all the way north to Albany just to cross the
Hudson River, but as the railroad was so stingy with its maintenance, trains
almost always had to be routed through Albany nonetheless. So, surprise
surprise it turns out that the bridge would cost substantially more to fix than
NY state is willing to pay, and the bankrupt PC certainly isn't willing to do
it. Since then I believe some of the track leading to the bridge on each side
has been taken up, but it's not clear that the bridge would, in fact, be
prohibitively expensive to fix. Currently I believe that the state owns it,
and leases it to a utility which runs gas and power lines across it. A private
individual either owns or leases the trackage rights, as I've spoken with him
about the bridge several times. So far as I can tell, though, he only owns the
rights because he could get them for more or less nothing; he also owns the
charter to the oldest railroad in the state, again evidently just for fun. But
hey, anything's possible, right? There are some pretty substantial elevation
problems with connecting the bridge to the existing Conrail line on the west
side of the river, and Conrail abandoned the line that it originally connected
to sometime in the early 80's. Well, if demand for rail service were ever
sufficient, I imagine most of the problems could get solved.
> Just where was the bridge located in relation to the Bear Mountain
>auto bridge? North or south, and could you see the old New Haven
>bridge fom there? I am interested because I feel the demise of
>the Erie-Lackawanna was probably accelerated due to the loss of
>New England traffic from/to Maybrook.
Which old New Haven bridge? The bridge is substantially north of Bear Mountain,
about 20 miles. It connects Poughkeepsie and Highland, which are around a
bend in the river from Newburgh, which is where the Bear Mountain bridge is.
There's also an auto bridge about a half mile south of the rail bridge; it must
have been pretty spectacular to watch trains go by on the high trestle while
stuck in morning traffic. The Poughkeepsie-Highland rail bridge was,
incidentally, built in 1888 by the Central New England railroad, and was at the
time the longest and highest trestle in existence. I've been told that it was
modeled on a very similar but much smaller bridge providing service to the
cement factories of nearby Rosendale, NY, and having seen that bridge I wouldn't
be surprised if that were the case.
--
*******************************************************************************
*Thor Simon * Okay, just a little pin-prick...There'll be no more-*
*t...@panix.COM * Aieeeeaaaugh!-but you may feel a little _sick_. *
*t...@spock.UUCP * ---Pink Floyd *
*******************************************************************************
Thor Lancelot Simon
>the extent of the fire. In all the literature I read they allude to
>the damage by the fire, but never describe the circumstances or
>the actual results. Was this a wooden bridge that was completely
>burned or a steel structure that warped and feel. If it was steel
>how could a fire destroy it unless it was the ties that contributed
>to the blaze.
It's a steel structure which in fact still exists. PC had been skimping on
> Just where was the bridge located in relation to the Bear Mountain
>auto bridge? North or south, and could you see the old New Haven
>bridge fom there? I am interested because I feel the demise of
>the Erie-Lackawanna was probably accelerated due to the loss of
>New England traffic from/to Maybrook.
Which old New Haven bridge? The bridge is substantially north of Bear Mountain,
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
yhsh...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Howard Wharton) writes:
>
>In article <32...@tymix.Tymnet.COM>, ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac) writes...
>into GCT were designed to run on NYCs underrunning 3rd rail not on
>PRR/LIRR overrunning third rail. I belive that the FL-9s shoes could be
>changed to over or underrunning.
I have ridden the trains between Boston, New York and Washington hundreds of
times since about 1953, and I can state unequivocally that I have NEVER been on
a train that changed power at Sunnyside! In pre-Penn Central days, the PRR
GG1s were swapped for New Haven EP5s (or earlier power) at the station stop in
Penn Station. Invariably so, as far as I know. PRR's GG1s were, of course,
serviced at Sunnyside. New Haven engines, I believe, were serviced only at
New Haven, though I suppose minor repairs could be performed at Oak Point
if they had to.
As for the PC era, that was when they started running the GG1s through to
New Haven. I believe that some (minor) modifications to the overhead were
required. I seem to remember some early problems with the GG1s pantographs
snagging the wire at "dead spots" and phase breaks (e. g., Cos Cob Bridge).
I don't believe that FL9s ever ran into Penn Station until well into the
Amtrak generation, and I don't think Amtrak ever used them routinely there
until the opening of the West Side Connection. There is a fairly well known
story that has come to be part of "urban legend", and may well be apochryphal,
concerning this. It is said that sometime after the New Haven had been running
FL9s into GCT for some time, the President of the Pennsy (perhaps Saunders)
was asked what about running them into Penn Station too and saving the
engine change at New Haven for their trains as well. His comment supposedly
was something like "Not on your life! If Mr. Perlman wants to blow his
station to Hell, that's his business, but there won't be any engines with
fuel tanks running into my Station!"
Joseph Brennan
>Zoo Junction *is* part of the corridor!
. . .
>So, for operations, they cannot be "operated separately".
Schedules for Main Line--30th St Upper trains can be made out with no
reference to schedules of Northeast Corridor--30th St Lower trains.
Likewise, late running on one of the two routings would not cause any
conflicting use of one track or block the other routing. This seems
significant to me, that's all. It's not as if the Main and NEC merged
at Zoo and then diverged again into the two 30th St approaches; rather
the two 30th St approaches are distinct already as a train moves south
out of the Zoo triangle.
Of course the routings are not totally independent in at least two
respects-- firstly, Zoo is a single interlocking, and secondly, many
other trains run a routing Northeast Corridor--30th St Upper.
Compare, though, a case where any two rail lines cross and there are
some trains running from one line into the other-- there too you would
have a single interlocking and some interdependence of scheduling.
Zoo is of course a LOT more complex than that.
There is good reason to say all of Zoo is part of the corridor; there
is also reason to distinguish the parts of Zoo between those tracks
used by corridor train services and others. I see it both ways.
How do you consider the freight High Line past 30th St? he asks
fiendishly.
>Next you'll tell me that 0 track and 5 track, et al, are not
>part of the corridor either! Get real!
This refers to the 5th and 6th track, right? I don't know of any
places where there is any reason to say so.
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
pie...@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson) writes:
> hmmmm. This is not real well documented, and may have changed from
> generation to generation of the NH Electrics. I believe that any
> purchased after the NY Connecting (the line from New Rochelle to
> Harold) had three way shoes: all the way up, overrunning, underrruning.
>
> The NH Employee TT certainly refers to NH locos equipped to run into
> Penn Station: They needed ATS to meet PRR requirements for tunnel ops.
> A change of power in Penn Station would save a stop at Harold. Harold
> also seems to be referenced in the NH Employee TT as the dividing line:
> specific reference is made to rake off blocks at Harold. (these would
> knock off 3rd rail shoes, in case they hadn't raised, to prevent the
> shoes fouling something further along.)
>
Trackage west of Harold was owned by some combination of the PRR and LIRR
and was not NH or New York Connecting property. New Haven electric
locomotives might well have been equipped for running on the PRR/LIRR
third rail, but I can't imagine why they would have needed to have been
unless it was just in case they had to use track that didn't have
overhead wire in case of some emergency. I wouldn't think MU cars or freight
locomotives would have needed it as neither would run into Penn Station
though again it probably wouldn't cost a great deal to add the dual shoes and
would allow use on PRR/LIRR tracks in case of the very unusual emergency.
As far as a "stop at Harold" is concerned, if they ever changed engines
at Harold regularly (which I doubt) it was before my day, and even if
they changed from third rail to overhead there (or the reverse) why would
they have to stop? They didn't/don't stop at Woodlawn!
Howard Wharton
>Which old New Haven bridge? The bridge is substantially north of Bear Mountain,
>about 20 miles. It connects Poughkeepsie and Highland, which are around a
>bend in the river from Newburgh, which is where the Bear Mountain bridge is.
>There's also an auto bridge about a half mile south of the rail bridge; it must
>have been pretty spectacular to watch trains go by on the high trestle while
>stuck in morning traffic. The Poughkeepsie-Highland rail bridge was,
>incidentally, built in 1888 by the Central New England railroad, and was at the
>time the longest and highest trestle in existence. I've been told that it was
>modeled on a very similar but much smaller bridge providing service to the
>cement factories of nearby Rosendale, NY, and having seen that bridge I wouldn't
>be surprised if that were the case.
>
>--
the bridge at Newburgh is the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge which carries I-84
over the Hudson.
Howard Wharton
through Penn.
New Haven ran afew FL-9s into Penn, I seen a few pictures of them
sitting in the motor storage (area in the open between the station
and the Post Office).
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
yhsh...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Howard Wharton) writes:
>New Haven changed engines at Sunnyside before Pennsy ran catanary
>through Penn.
before I was born and 20 years before I rode my first train to New York.
Thanks for the information. It had never occured to me that they might
have done something like that, although I knew that the Hell Gate Bridge
Route pre-dated PRR catenary. I guess if I'd ever thought of it I would
have assumed that the PRR had allowed the NH to extend their overhead into
Penn Station. I have a couple of NH Employees' Timetables from the late
20s - guess I'll go reread them and see if I can find any relevant material.
>New Haven ran afew FL-9s into Penn, I seen a few pictures of them
>sitting in the motor storage (area in the open between the station
>and the Post Office).
reading anyway.
Paula Matuszek
> Three daily trains run between New York and points on the former
> Pennsylvania Railroad main line west from Philadelphia. One of them
> is the "Broadway Limited" that is an overnight (and half-a-day) train
> between New York and Chicago. It offers sleeping car and full dining
> and lounge service, and requires seat reservations in the coaches. It
> bypasses the main station in Philadelphia (30th Street), stopping only
> at North Philadelphia, and does not carry passengers locally between
> New York and North Philadelphia nor between North Philadelphia and
> Harrisburg.
While the Northeast timetable shows the Broadway Limited as bypassing
30th Street, the National minus Northeast schedule shows it arriving
at 30th Street at 4:24PM and leaving at 4:47PM. It is marked as
stopping to receive passengers only, and although the schedule isn't
marked that way I'm pretty sure it won't carry passengers from 30th
Street to Paoli, and I can well believe that it won't carry them to
Harrisburg either. Neither schedule shows it stopping at North
Philadelphia, but it may anyhow. The only time I rode it I boarded at
Paoli (western suburb of Philly, end of the Main Line), so I can't
speak from personal experience, though.
>
>Len Bachelder Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
--Paula Matuszek
pa...@vfl.paramax.com
pa...@vfl.paramax.com. NOTE: This is a change, effective mid-December, 1992
dave pierson
part:
>New Haven engines, I believe, were serviced only at New Haven, though I suppose
>minor repairs could be performed at Oak Point if they had to.
The major maintaineance base for NH Electrics was in NY, not NH, tho I
cannot recall the location name. Maye have been Oak Point.
>As for the PC era, that was when they started running the GG1s through to
>New Haven. I believe that some (minor) modifications to the overhead were
>required. I seem to remember some early problems with the GG1s pantographs
>snagging the wire at "dead spots" and phase breaks (e. g., Cos Cob Bridge).
The maximum possible height, without wire present, for the GG1 was high
enough that the shoe was _above_ the wire as it came off the Saugatuck
(?) bridge gap (near Cos Cob...). Embarassing...
Joseph Brennan
pie...@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson) writes:
> The major maintaineance base for NH Electrics was in NY, not NH, tho I
> cannot recall the location name. Maye have been Oak Point.
Van Nest, which is in the east Bronx, near where Tremont Ave crosses
the line, which is about halfway between Hell Gate and New Rochelle.
It's no longer a railroad building, may be Con Ed now or some other use.
Michael Stimac
>In article <C1A9r...@acsu.buffalo.edu>
>yhsh...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Howard Wharton) writes:
>
>>
>>In article <32...@tymix.Tymnet.COM>, ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac) writes...
>> Power (motors) were changed at Sunnyside...New Haven's motors that ran
>>into GCT were designed to run on NYCs underrunning 3rd rail not on
>>PRR/LIRR overrunning third rail. I belive that the FL-9s shoes could be
>>changed to over or underrunning.
>Sorry, I can't let this one go by without comment.
Hey, Len. I didn't have anything to do with the paragraph you quoted
above. As the old-time usenet admonition goes "check your attribution".
I don't claim to know a thing about the FL-9, and wouldn't make
any definite statement about their properties.
If you want to shoot me down, wait until I say something about the
Pennsy or its rolling stock.
:-) :-)
Michael Stimac
Michael Stimac
>In article <32...@tymix.Tymnet.COM> ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael
>Stimac) writes:
>>Zoo Junction *is* part of the corridor!
. . .
>>So, for operations, they cannot be "operated separately".
>Schedules for Main Line--30th St Upper trains can be made out with no
>reference to schedules of Northeast Corridor--30th St Lower trains.
>Likewise, late running on one of the two routings would not cause any
>conflicting use of one track or block the other routing. This seems
>significant to me, that's all. It's not as if the Main and NEC merged
>at Zoo and then diverged again into the two 30th St approaches; rather
>the two 30th St approaches are distinct already as a train moves south
>out of the Zoo triangle.
>Of course the routings are not totally independent in at least two
>respects-- firstly, Zoo is a single interlocking, and secondly, many
>other trains run a routing Northeast Corridor--30th St Upper.
>Compare, though, a case where any two rail lines cross and there are
>some trains running from one line into the other-- there too you would
>have a single interlocking and some interdependence of scheduling.
>Zoo is of course a LOT more complex than that.
>There is good reason to say all of Zoo is part of the corridor; there
>is also reason to distinguish the parts of Zoo between those tracks
>used by corridor train services and others. I see it both ways.
Joe, this is really more of a philosophical question, as we both
seem to realize by now. I fully agree that, given a 'standard'
routing the trains can be scheduled independently, and I agree that
this is an important consideration. (why else would Zoo be the
extraordinary plant that it is). My only objection is to thinking
that some of the tracks at Zoo are not part of the corridor.
Could we compromise by saying that the 30th upper trains going
west go *through* the NEC?
>How do you consider the freight High Line past 30th St? he asks
>fiendishly.
Who owns it? I'd say that if Amtrak owns it, then it is part of
the NEC. And, in the past, revenue passengers were carried over
that track on occasion. (a challenge for Pennsy buffs: what was
the occasion?)
>>Next you'll tell me that 0 track and 5 track, et al, are not
>>part of the corridor either! Get real!
>
>This refers to the 5th and 6th track, right? I don't know of any
>places where there is any reason to say so.
Right. Using your rather strict definition of "NEC", then tracks
5 and 6 would not be part of the corridor, as freight trains
doing local work can operate (almost) fully independently of the
north-south passenger trains.
What about a SEPTA operated branch line, say the Chestnut Hill line,
would you say that is part of NEC?
If anyone besides Joe and myself is still reading this, they
might like to know that Zoo is not named for the maze of
approach tracks and the jungle of turnouts, but rather for its
proximity to the Philadelphia Zoological Gardens. In spite of
this, though, I expect that more than once a frustrated lever
man has thought to himself, "it's a zoo out there!".
Zoo controls the junction of 5 northward tracks, the merge of
5 westward tracks to 3 tracks, 19 southward tracks, 15 tracks
associated with a yard immediately adjacent, and 2 northwestward
tracks. The switch and signal lever numbers go well over 200.
If this weren't enough, there used to be a freight yard (Mantua
Yard) inside the triangle formed by the junction!
Aron Eisenpress
Robbins) says:
>
>What is the burned out elevated station (kind of on a bridge where
>one line passes over the other) between Overbrook and 30'th street?
An old map (it's on the back of a neat book called "Man-Made Philadelphia")
shows a station a 52nd Street, where the Cynwyd (Manayunk) line branches off.
Dunno when it was last used, but the book dates from 1972.
In article <32...@tymix.Tymnet.COM>, ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac)
says:
>
> [...] There is the Schuylkill branch which takes
>off from the Main Line at 52nd Street (not exactly Zoo, but only
>3.9 miles from Suburban Station).
>
>This line is (was?) electrifed as far as Norristown, going through such
>towns as Bala, Cynwyd, Manayunk, Conshohocken, and Ivy Rock. Beyond
>Norristown the line continues to a junction with the Lehigh Valley
>at Laurel Junction passing such towns as Phoenixville, Pottstown,
>Birdsboro, Shoemakersville, Pottsville, and New Boston.
The branch through Bala only runs as far as Cynwyd, and only weekdays
(6 trains each way). My understanding is that the bridge over the
Schuylkill isn't in good enough shape any more.
Manayunk and on has service from the ex-Reading side, through Market
East, North Broad, etc. (The Bala branch is ex-Pennsy -- did that
ever run thorugh on the Reading trackage?)
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
pie...@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson) writes:
>
> Well, for about 15 years (NY Connecting, ca 1920, PRR gets catenary
> into Penn Station, ca 1935), there had to be some way to get the through
> trains to Penn Station. Could have been thru NH power, IF (as i
> believe, tho cannot find docs, except the employee TT reference to
> rake off blocks near Harold) the NH shoe gear could handle overrunning
> and underrunning third rail.
> OR
> They could have changed to DD1/L5 "somewhere", probably around
> Harold (Unlikely to actually enter Sunnyside, per se, thats off to
> one side.)
> My uncertainty is about what the NH did before the wires went up.
>
I share your "uncertainty". i have a couple of ETTs from the late 20s.
If I get a chance in the next several days, I'll see if I can find
any enlightenment in them.
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac) writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan25.2...@news.columbia.edu> bre...@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Joseph Brennan) writes:
>
>>How do you consider the freight High Line past 30th St? he asks
>>fiendishly.
>
>Who owns it? I'd say that if Amtrak owns it, then it is part of
>the NEC. And, in the past, revenue passengers were carried over
>that track on occasion. (a challenge for Pennsy buffs: what was
>the occasion?)
>
Street was blocked by flood waters or by a fire such as happened last
year? Just guessing!
Carl P. Zwanzig
a pain to the local power utilities because they have to maintain 25Hz
generating and transmission equipment. If you ride the WashDC Metro red
line, you can follow the power lines from the NEC mainline into PEPCO's
Benning Road Station (oil fired boilers?). As far as I know, there is a
little 60Hz used for traction, and no other AC. There is 1500 vdc
and 600vdc around for "local" service, but all long-haul is AC.
BTW, some of the newer subways use 750vdc.
Carl Zwanzig
zb...@access.digex.com
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
>above. As the old-time usenet admonition goes "check your attribution".
>
>I don't claim to know a thing about the FL-9, and wouldn't make
>any definite statement about their properties.
>
>If you want to shoot me down, wait until I say something about the
>Pennsy or its rolling stock.
>
the wrong lines when I edited the note to which I was replying. I
often find it difficult, due to the characteristics I guess of different
mailer programs, to know exactly who is posting a note - especially when
they don't include a signature. I'm certainly not interested in
"shooting anybody down". We all have erasers on our pencils, as it were,
and a good way to learn about many topics (and it's certainly true of
the arcane topic of railroad history) is to make a statement and see what
comments it brings forth. "Run it up the flagpole and see who salutes!"
Len Bachelder Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
Joseph Brennan
>Could we compromise by saying that the 30th upper trains going
>west go *through* the NEC?
Well, we'd better compromise somehow!! OK.
I've just moved where I live, but I was digging up my railroad
materials in boxes last night, thinking I had a track map of the NEC
someplace, but I guess I don't. The best I have is a diagram that was
in _Trains_ magazine in the mid-1980's, and while you will be amused
to know that they chose to show only the NEC side of the Zoo triangle,
as well as only 30th St lower (represented by a box rather than a plan
of the multiple tracks in the station), it's not exactly authoritative.
Some branches aren't shown for some reason. The West Chester branch
is missing; is it possible that can be accessed only from 30th St
upper level? I sure hope not, or we can argue over that next.
A Penn Central employee timetable had an interesting approach. Routes
were shown as:
Harold (Sunnyside Yard, New York) -- Zoo
Zoo -- a point west of Harrisburg
Zoo -- Suburban station (Phila)
Zoo -- a point at the Virginia end of Potomac River bridge
By this method, Zoo is treated as a 4-way crossing and 30th St upper
and lower are on two different lines. It wasn't clear exactly what
point is considered "Zoo". The Belmont Branch and the "West
Philadelphia elevated line" are further branches but are not given Zoo
as either end point.
What we want though is a track diagram of Zoo. One showing the switch
and signal detail would be even more fun! It has been said that Zoo
will be the very last place on NEC to get modern interlocking control
since no one wants to tackle programming it.
Aron Eisenpress
In article <16B5CF00...@MBVM.Mitre.Org>, M00...@MBVM.Mitre.Org says:
>
>
>150 mph. Back in the 1960s, the Pennsylvania Railroad's Metroliner electric
>multiple unit trains were allowed at least 120 mph.
I remember watching out the front and seeing the speedometer up around 124
on those, when they were first in service.
> 5.) Trenton - Philadelphia. Operated by Southeastern Pennsylvania
> Transportation Authority (SEPTA). Electric multiple-unit trains.
> Service operates seven days a week, all day and evening. Last time I
> remember looking at a schedule, base service was hourly with more
> trains in the rush hours, but SEPTA has been cutting back recently.
> Through tickets sold New York <-> Philadelphia by NJT/SEPTA at a
> considerably cheaper price than Amtrak charges. SEPTA trains run on
> the Corridor (and on other lines as well) to 30th Street Station, then
> follow a short branch into Penn Center and Market East Stations in
> downtown ("Center City") Philadelphia. Most then continue on to one
> of several destinations on the former Reading Railroad lines. This
> line is relatively lightly used even for SEPTA, which is arguably the
worst commuter rail system operator in the U.S.
SEPTA also runs one or two AEM-7 (or similar) locomotive-hauled trains here.
I see them at Trenton on the weekend.
I happen to have a 1980 schedule for this line, and the comparison is
interesting:
Trains weekdays (each direction) Saturdays Sundays
1980 21 11 6
Today 25 18 18
On the other hand, I think Amtrak was much cheaper then than now, so there was
less incentive to use the local for NYC-Philadelphia (or Trenton-Philadelphia)
travel. (The cheapest fares now for New York/Philadelphia are, on Amtrak,
$47.00 for a round-trip excursion, and on NJTransit+SEPTA, $21.00 for an off-
peak round-trip. One-way NYC-PHL is $30.00 on Amtrak, $12.95 on NJT/SEPTA
off-peak, $14.20 peak. NJT sells SEPTA tickets, but not vice-versa, and if
you're traveling through Center City to another SEPTA line you can't buy the
SEPTA through ticket from NJT.)
(SEPTA fares, by the way, have gone up from $3.25 to $3.50 off-peak and from
$4.35 to $4.75 peak, since 1980, for Trenton/Philadelphia. Monthly passes went
*down*, from $145 to $132.) Also, base service is still hourly; I don't think
this service was cut at all recently, other than to eliminate the former flag
stops at Frankford Junction and Andalusia.
> 6.) Philadelphia - Wilmington - Newark (DE). Electric multiple-unit
> trains operated by SEPTA. Most service runs between Philadelphia and
> Wilmington (see comment above regarding "Center City"). I believe
> that a few rush hour trains are extended to Newark but this may not
> yet have begun. There used to be additional service between Chester
> and Philadelphia, and I think there still is.
The additional service goes to Marcus Hook, 3 stops beyond Chester and 2 stops
before Wilmington. There's no service to Newark on the timetable, and on
Sundays there's no service past Marcus Hook.
Interestingly, I recently had to pay a cash fare on Amtrak (to upgrade an
excursion ticket) and the receipt has punchboxes for a few stations between
Philadelphia (PHL) and Baltimore (BAL) that I didn't think Amtrak had anything
to do with: CHT (Chester), NRK (Newark), ETN (????), and ABE (Aberdeen).
And in response to another thread, the Poughkeepsie bridge is just north of
the Poughkeepsie Metro-North/Amtrak station.
douglas.e.sherry
>
>The PRR line was electrified at least (and I suspect only) to Norristown.
>I recall seeing timetables for local (presumably MP54) service that far
>as recently as the early 60s. Passenger service was cut back to Manayunk
>circa 1965 (really unsure about that date, would have to check timetables
>at home). Service beyond Norristown was steam, later diesel. The first
>time I rode the Red Arrow to Norristown (1959), wires were still up on
>the Pennsy under the bridge, and I believe a limited passenger service
>was still being operated by them. I believe also at that time, the
>Reading MU service extended beyond downtown up a short spur to the north
>whereas the main line to Reading and Pottsville continued on, crossing
>the Schuylkill River I think just west of the Red Arrow Bridge.
>
>When I try to remember what the story was west of Norristown, my
>memory really gets foggy, but I remember both Pennsy and Reading timetables
>circa 1960 showing joint service with something like 4 or five trains a day
>on the Reading, one on the Pennsy and several round trips of Reading
>Transportation Company busses. I THINK I remember that the Pennsy service
>and all but one Reading train ended at Pottsville, while the busses and a
>single Reading train, the "King Coal", went to Shamokin. It is my impression
>possibly incorrect that the Pennsy and the Reading had essentially parallel
>lines, like maybe on opposite sides of a river, all the way to Shamokin
>and perhaps even farther than that. Could check old maps and timetables
>at home if/when I have time if somebody else doesn't remember more complete
>and accurate details.
>
Yes, this line paralleled the Reading line north to Pottsville. Most of the line
is abandoned from Norristown to Reading, but from Temple to Hamburg, the Blue
Mountain and Reading operates the former Pennsy line. The small yard in Reading
is serviced by Conrail from the connection to the Reading line at Spring Street.
>
>Len Bachelder Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
>MITRE Corp. Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
>Bedford MA 01730 Member, 470 Railroad Club
><M00...@mbvm.mitre.org>
>
>"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
> - Charles Wesley
Doug Sherry
AT&T Bell Labs
desh...@aloft.att.com
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
Aron Eisenpress <AF...@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>
>The branch through Bala only runs as far as Cynwyd, and only weekdays
>(6 trains each way). My understanding is that the bridge over the
>Schuylkill isn't in good enough shape any more.
>
>Manayunk and on has service from the ex-Reading side, through Market
>East, North Broad, etc. (The Bala branch is ex-Pennsy -- did that
>ever run thorugh on the Reading trackage?)
The PRR line was electrified at least (and I suspect only) to Norristown.
I recall seeing timetables for local (presumably MP54) service that far
as recently as the early 60s. Passenger service was cut back to Manayunk
circa 1965 (really unsure about that date, would have to check timetables
at home). Service beyond Norristown was steam, later diesel. The first
time I rode the Red Arrow to Norristown (1959), wires were still up on
the Pennsy under the bridge, and I believe a limited passenger service
was still being operated by them. I believe also at that time, the
Reading MU service extended beyond downtown up a short spur to the north
whereas the main line to Reading and Pottsville continued on, crossing
the Schuylkill River I think just west of the Red Arrow Bridge.
When I try to remember what the story was west of Norristown, my
memory really gets foggy, but I remember both Pennsy and Reading timetables
circa 1960 showing joint service with something like 4 or five trains a day
on the Reading, one on the Pennsy and several round trips of Reading
Transportation Company busses. I THINK I remember that the Pennsy service
and all but one Reading train ended at Pottsville, while the busses and a
single Reading train, the "King Coal", went to Shamokin. It is my impression
possibly incorrect that the Pennsy and the Reading had essentially parallel
lines, like maybe on opposite sides of a river, all the way to Shamokin
and perhaps even farther than that. Could check old maps and timetables
at home if/when I have time if somebody else doesn't remember more complete
and accurate details.
M00...@mbvm.mitre.org
Aron Eisenpress <AF...@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>
>Interestingly, I recently had to pay a cash fare on Amtrak (to upgrade an
>excursion ticket) and the receipt has punchboxes for a few stations between
>Philadelphia (PHL) and Baltimore (BAL) that I didn't think Amtrak had anything
>to do with: CHT (Chester), NRK (Newark), ETN (????), and ABE (Aberdeen).
>
do have one or two trains each way stopping at Newark and/or Aberdeen.
I suspect ETN is Edgewood. Amtrak has at times had a train or two stoppi
there, but they don't now.
Michael Stimac
>In article <32...@tymix.Tymnet.COM> ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael
>Stimac) writes:
>
>Some branches aren't shown for some reason. The West Chester branch
>is missing; is it possible that can be accessed only from 30th St
>upper level? I sure hope not, or we can argue over that next.
The West Chester Branch takes off at Arsenal interlocking plant.
There is a least one track which crosses over from (all) the main tracks
south onto the Westchester Branch. However two tracks which lead
directly from 30th Upper Level also lead directly onto the branch
being obviously the usual routing. The corssover track was most
likely for routing local freight trains.
The West Chester Branch may have a unique claim to fame: it
has its own branch, the Newtown Square Branch. The Newton Square
Branch in turn has *its* own branchline, the Cardington Branch.
Is this some sort of record for sub-branching?
>A Penn Central employee timetable had an interesting approach. Routes
>were shown as:
> Harold (Sunnyside Yard, New York) -- Zoo
> Zoo -- a point west of Harrisburg
> Zoo -- Suburban station (Phila)
> Zoo -- a point at the Virginia end of Potomac River bridge
>
>By this method, Zoo is treated as a 4-way crossing and 30th St upper
>and lower are on two different lines. It wasn't clear exactly what
>point is considered "Zoo". The Belmont Branch and the "West
>Philadelphia elevated line" are further branches but are not given Zoo
>as either end point.
My 1955 ETT does define the West Philadelphia Elevated Branch
as starting at Zoo, running through Arsenal, and ending at Brill.
The "Belmont Branch" is not defined as a branch, but rather
as a "running track" in charge of the Zoo Train Director and
the 44th St yardmaster.
It also defines the Grays Ferry Branch (no apostrophe) as running
from Zoo to Arsenal. These are the two tracks that go directly
into the W C branch.
>What we want though is a track diagram of Zoo. One showing the switch
>and signal detail would be even more fun! It has been said that Zoo
>will be the very last place on NEC to get modern interlocking control
>since no one wants to tackle programming it.
I'm willing to try :-)
I do have the sort of track diagrams you mention, although I can't
find one for Arsenal, to give a better answer about the WC branch.
Such diagrams have been printed in _Rails Northeast_, _The Keystone_,
and _The High Line_. The first has been out of print for years and
is probably a collectors' item. The other two are publihsed by the
Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society.
Michael Stimac
>In article <32...@tymix.Tymnet.COM>
>ro...@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac) writes:
>
>>
>>Hey, Len. I didn't have anything to do with the paragraph you quoted
>>above. As the old-time usenet admonition goes "check your attribution".
>I didn't mean anything as a personal criticism. I may have deleted
>the wrong lines when I edited the note to which I was replying. I
>often find it difficult, due to the characteristics I guess of different
>mailer programs, to know exactly who is posting a note - especially when
>they don't include a signature. I'm certainly not interested in
>"shooting anybody down".
Len, no problem. I put a smiley at the end of my "complaint", as
we've all found mailer quirks that make life messy. I just didn't
want anyone to think I was setting myself up as a qualified
commentor on NH practices.
I'll now write " :-) " one hundred times.....
Michael
dave pierson
Zwanzig) writes...
>Unless I'm mistaken, the entire NEC uses 11kv AC 25Hz.
thru route, DC-Boston USED to be 11KV/25Hz DC-NH, albeit on two
different RRs. A portion of the ex NHRR is now 60Hz commercial power
(roughly Woodlawn-NH, tho they are extending third rail partially,
so Woodlan is no longer right.)
> This, of course, is a pain to the local power utilities because they have to
>maintain 25Hz generating and transmission equipment.
The generating equipment, while on power compnay property, is "owned" by
the RR (I expect AMTRAK picked up ownership when the bought the
corridor). The transmission lines are largely on RR proerty, and, i
suspect all RR owned and maintained. The rate paid the power companies
is low, but i doubt the power companies are loosing money. (same
applies to the large rotary frequency convertors that are also part of
the system.)
> If you ride the WashDC Metro red line, you can follow the power lines from
>the NEC mainline into PEPCO's Benning Road Station (oil fired boilers?).
hmmmm I know that between Bridgeport and NH, the local power company
rents tower space and runs 100odd kv transmission circuits on the rr
catenary supports. This dates to the 30's. The wiring has nothing to
do with the RR, it was just a hand place to run the wires. I don't know
if the DC area lines are the same, or if there is a 25 Hz feed there.
>There is 1500 vdc and 600vdc around for "local" service, but all long-haul is
>AC.
I don't think there was ever any 1500Vdc on the corridor, proper.
Lackawanna used to have some commuter service at 3KVDC in NJ, which
terminated in Hoboken. This was converted to 25KVAC/60Hz about ten
years back. There was not an electrifed connection to the NEC proper,
tho that has been proposed over the years.
James B. VanBokkelen
What we want though is a track diagram of Zoo. One showing the switch
and signal detail would be even more fun!
Trains & Travel magazine (presently 'Trains') had a 2-page article on Zoo Jct.
in 1951, with a pretty good map, but little on the signalling aside from awe.
James B. VanBokkelen 2 High St., North Andover, MA 01845
FTP Software Inc. voice: (508) 685-4000 fax: (508) 794-4488
D. Andrew Byler
>Interestingly, I recently had to pay a cash fare on Amtrak (to upgrade an
>excursion ticket) and the receipt has punchboxes for a few stations >between
>Philadelphia (PHL) and Baltimore (BAL) that I didn't think Amtrak had
>anything
>to do with: CHT (Chester), NRK (Newark), ETN (????), and ABE >(Aberdeen).
Well those were probably some really old receipts. Amtrak used to run a
train from Suburban Station in Philadelphia to Washington. Named the
Chesapeake, it was somewhat like the clocker service between
Philadelphia and New York, in that it ran to Washington in the morning
and returned in the evening. ETN=Elkton, Maryland. Currently, one
train each way stops at Newark, and about four trains each way stop at
Aberdeen. it also stopped at Bowie and Odenton in Maryland, both south
of Baltimore, and currently served only by MARC.
Andy Byler
George Robbins
> In article <93027.16...@CUNYVM.BITNET>
> Aron Eisenpress <AF...@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>
> >
> >Interestingly, I recently had to pay a cash fare on Amtrak (to upgrade an
> >excursion ticket) and the receipt has punchboxes for a few stations between
> >Philadelphia (PHL) and Baltimore (BAL) that I didn't think Amtrak had anything
> >to do with: CHT (Chester), NRK (Newark), ETN (????), and ABE (Aberdeen).
> >
> Chester surprises me. I don't recall Amtrak ever stopping there. They
> do have one or two trains each way stopping at Newark and/or Aberdeen.
> I suspect ETN is Edgewood. Amtrak has at times had a train or two stoppi
> there, but they don't now.
More likely Elkton, MD. Chester has a fairly large station and perhaps
one of the more local Philadelphia/Washington trains stops there or there
was some consideration of doing do.
--
George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing: uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department domain: g...@cbmvax.commodore.com
D. Andrew Byler
>
>> 6.) Philadelphia - Wilmington - Newark (DE). Electric
multiple-un
>it
>> trains operated by SEPTA. Most service runs between
Philadelphia >and
>> Wilmington (see comment above regarding "Center City"). I believe
>> that a few rush hour trains are extended to Newark but this may not
>> yet have begun. There used to be additional service between
Chester
>> and Philadelphia, and I think there still is.
>
>the last stop being Chester or Marcus Hook. Not sure of the latest status of
>this or the Newark extension (~15 miles/two local station beyond Wilmington)
Actually, all trains that do not end at Wilmington, end at Marcus Hook.
The termination of trains in Chester ended with the removal of Lamokin
interlocking several years ago.
As to Newark service, this survived into the SEPTA era until 1983, at
which time Delawre removed all funding for SEPTA. As of this date,
negotiations are still underway to extend service to Newark, with an
intermediate stop in Newport.
>> 7.) Other Philadelphia area stuff. You can't get out of
30th Stre
>et
>> Station without using the Corridor for at least a short distance.
>> In addition to the Amtrak local service to Harrisburg that I
already
>> mentioned, SEPTA runs trains (multiple unit electrics) to several
>> other destinations (Paoli, Chestnut Hill West, Philadelphia Inter-
>> national Airport, Media) that start their trip from 30th
Street on t
>he
>> Corridor for at least a few yards! Also, New Jersey Transit is
>> supposedly going to start soon running local service between
>Atlantic
>> City and 30th Street.
>
>Not exactly true - The NEC runs "through" the basement concourse, while the
>commuter lines run crosswise through the upper level. I don't know the exact
>routing off all the commuter lines into the station, but some, at least the
>Paoli Local don't (obviously) tread on the corridor.
The precise routing is actually very complex, as anyone who has seen Zoo
Interlocking can attest. The trains from Trenton and Wilmington follow
the corridor the entire way in, to either Zoo or Arsenal interlocking at
which point they swing off to enter 30th Street via the upper level.
The Chesnut Hill West parallells the entry of the Trenton line, while
the Airport line paralels the Wilmington lines entry. The Media/W.
Chester line (service is currently embargoed beyond Elwyn) enters from
the south as well, but as it joins the other lines at Arsenal, it never
enters the corridor. The same holds for the Paoli/Downingtown line,
which joins the northern lines at Zoo, but never enters the corridor.
See Diagram below.
From Chesnut Hill\ / From Trenton, Atlantic City, and Points North
\/
/ North Philadlephia Interlocking
/
~~
/
From Paoli\__ __/
\ \ / /|
|\]|[-/-/ |
| | /| /|
\/]\[-|-/ |
| \ \ / Zoo Interlocking (Simplified)
\ /\ \/
\/ \/
| |
| |
| |
/\ |
/]/[-\__|_____ To Penn Center, Norristown, Jenkintown, & Points North
/ \__/ | 30th Street Station (Penn Interlocking)
| |
Septa | |Amtrak Line (North East Corridor)
Line | /
\ /
\ /
\ /
/\/ Arsenal Interlocking
/ \
/ \
To Media To Wilmington, Philadelphia Airport, and Points South
D. Andrew Byler
>What is the burned out elevated station (kind of on a bridge where
>one line passes over the other) between Overbrook and 30'th street?
>When was it last in service?
It is the old 52nd Street Station, located astride Valley interlocking,
where the Manyunk/Norristown Pennsy bracnh left the Main Line. The
station was "temporarily" discontinued as a stop in 1980. As it was
mainly used by servants of rich Main Line dwellers in commuting to and
from work, and considering that most of these people have left the area
for points further out in the suburbs, it is doubtful trains will ever
stop at the station again.
>Is there one other electrified branch heading northwest from the west
>end of Zoo? Riding past on the Paoli Local I see tracks, but can't
>tell what's going on. One of these days, I'll have to buy survey
>maps and trace out the different branches, past and present.
I am unsure of which branch you refer to here. At Zoo, the 4 track
Septa line from the upper level of 30th Street splits, with 2 tracks
joining two Amtrak tracks from the lower level to head to Paoli, and two
tracks ducking under the westbound Paoli track to join 2 tracks from the
lower level to head to N. Philadelphia. Also at this point, the Conrail
West Philly Elevated line joins the corridor, the Belmont branch
(Conrail Main Line to Harrisburg via Reading) leaves off, but it is not
electrified. Finnally, there is the New York Pittsburgh Subway, a
single track line that allows trains from the west to be routed directly
to New York without having to enter 30th Street. Finally, the last line
in the area is on the Paoli line about one mile west at Valley
Interlocking (see above) where the little used line to Manyunk and Ivy
Ridge breaks off (the line is embargoed beyond Cynwyd and a likely
candidate for abandonment when Septa runs out of money soon). I hope
this helps you.
D. Andrew Byler
>Next you'll tell me that 0 track and 5 track, et al, are not
>>part of the corridor either! Get real!
>
>This refers to the 5th and 6th track, right? I don't know of any
>places where there is any reason to say so.
Actually, Number 0 track between Zoo and North Philadelphia was sold to
Conrail several years ago, and is thus technically no longer part of the
Corridor.
Andy Byler
D. Andrew Byler
>This line is (was?) electrifed as far as Norristown, going through such
>towns as Bala, Cynwyd, Manayunk, Conshohocken, and Ivy Rock. Beyond
>Norristown the line continues to a junction with the Lehigh Valley
>at Laurel Junction passing such towns as Phoenixville, Pottstown,
>Birdsboro, Shoemakersville, Pottsville, and New Boston.
>
>(I love those Pennsylvania town names :-)
The line is still electrified, but...
1) The portion beyond Ivy Ridge (just beyond Manyunk) was abandoned in
the 1960's.
2) The portion beyond Cynwyd was embargoed by SPETA in 1986, when
someone finally got around to closing the Schuykill Bridge because it
was a safety hazard (it periodically rains chunks of concrete on
unsuspecting cars below).
3) Finally, due to recent budget crunches, all but rush hour service was
abandoned on this branch. It doesn't look to be long for this world, so
get your rides in now.
Andy Byler
Howard Wharton
>before I was born and 20 years before I rode my first train to New York.
>Thanks for the information. It had never occured to me that they might
>have done something like that, although I knew that the Hell Gate Bridge
>Route pre-dated PRR catenary. I guess if I'd ever thought of it I would
>have assumed that the PRR had allowed the NH to extend their overhead into
>Penn Station. I have a couple of NH Employees' Timetables from the late
>20s - guess I'll go reread them and see if I can find any relevant material.
It was 1933. In fact the first train out of Penn under wire was on Jan 16th
at 9am, train 207 with a P-5a on the head end.
Howard Wharton
>>minor repairs could be performed at Oak Point if they had to.
>
> The major maintaineance base for NH Electrics was in NY, not NH, tho I
> cannot recall the location name. Maye have been Oak Point.
The major shops for all electrics was Van Nest located in the Bronx. The
shops were closed sometime in the 50's and all work was transferred
to New Haven. I beleive that the New Haven shops were unable to perform
the type of work that was done at Van Nest. That is way the NH electric
fleet( or left of it ) was in bad shape from the late 50s when Van Nest
was closed to merger in Penn Central.
Howard Wharton
> rents tower space and runs 100odd kv transmission circuits on the rr
> catenary supports. This dates to the 30's. The wiring has nothing to
> do with the RR, it was just a hand place to run the wires. I don't know
> if the DC area lines are the same, or if there is a 25 Hz feed there.
and New Haven area did run their lines on the same towers that supported
the RR transmission lines (catanery support towers). The lines at the time had
nothing to do with the railroad until the change to 60hz and the lines
do feed substations supplying the catanary.
Robert Chambers
Are you sure? I think the power is supplied by United Illuminating,
especially the power plant located just downstream from the Bridgeport
RR station.
Robert
Howard Wharton
>
>Are you sure? I think the power is supplied by United Illuminating,
>especially the power plant located just downstream from the Bridgeport
>RR station.
I'm sure. I have the video of the cab ride in a AEM-7 from Penn to
New Haven. The video was done in 86 and shows the new substations
being installed for the changeover to 60Hz and United Illuminating lines
that followed the tracks being feed into them. Those lines not
only serviced the Bridgeportpower plant but the one at Devon near
where the Maybrook line comes into the Mainline.
Howard Wharton
>especially the power plant located just downstream from the Bridgeport
>RR station.
>
>Robert
Excuse my last post, I misread it....I made the mistake, you're
correct in the electric company. Northeast serves the rest of the
state through its operating companies. My error.
Howie