Modulation Limiter in Uniden Washington
Mogath1
What happens when TR-32 (Modulation Limiter?) is cut? Does this make it a
splash machine? Is that ALL that's involved in turning up the modulation in one
of these? I don't wanna splash adjacent channels with bleedover. If anyone out
there can guide me in this I'd appreciate it. Thanks
Bill Eitner
No, removing TR32 doesn't automatically make the radio
bleed over. The idea behind removing the modulation
limiter is that it takes control of the modulation
percentage away from the government and gives it back
to you--the actual user. From then on it's up to you
to take charge of it. What that means is that YOU have
to concern yourself with how high you run the mic gain
on YOUR radio. If YOU are receiving complaints about
bleedover, YOU, as a reasonable radio operator, should
turn the mic gain down--that's all there is to it. In
other words, if you take it easy on the mic gain, your
radio will sound no different that the same radio with
it's modulation limiter intact. Removing the limiter
does nothing other than put YOU in control. Are YOU
a responsible radio operator? If so, YOU deserve control
over YOUR modulation percentage.
73
--
----------------------------------------
\ /
___ | ___
A
/ | \
-=[Bill Eitner]=- III
III
III
_________III_________
tn...@muck.net
On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 23:52:55 -0800, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
The only problem with taking the modulation control away from the
government and into the hands of joe citizen is there are too many
joe citizen assholes and joe citizen dumb ass. It's kind of like
taking all the speed limit rules away. If you do it will always give
license for some asshole/dumb ass to make driving miserable for
everyone else. The same applies to radios. There are to many
assholes/dumbass's. Please don't use government control paranoia
to justify your lack of common sense.
Bill Eitner
tn...@muck.net wrote:
>
> On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 23:52:55 -0800, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Mogath1 wrote:
> >>
> >> What happens when TR-32 (Modulation Limiter?) is cut? Does this make it a
> >> splash machine? Is that ALL that's involved in turning up the modulation in one
> >> of these? I don't wanna splash adjacent channels with bleedover. If anyone out
> >> there can guide me in this I'd appreciate it. Thanks
> >
> > No, removing TR32 doesn't automatically make the radio
> > bleed over. The idea behind removing the modulation
> > limiter is that it takes control of the modulation
> > percentage away from the government and gives it back
> > to you--the actual user. From then on it's up to you
> > to take charge of it. What that means is that YOU have
> > to concern yourself with how high you run the mic gain
> > on YOUR radio. If YOU are receiving complaints about
> > bleedover, YOU, as a reasonable radio operator, should
> > turn the mic gain down--that's all there is to it. In
> > other words, if you take it easy on the mic gain, your
> > it's modulation limiter intact. Removing the limiter
> > does nothing other than put YOU in control. Are YOU
> > a responsible radio operator? If so, YOU deserve control
> > over YOUR modulation percentage.
> >
> > 73
>
> The only problem with taking the modulation control away from the
> government and into the hands of joe citizen is there are too many
> joe citizen assholes and joe citizen dumb ass. It's kind of like
> taking all the speed limit rules away. If you do it will always give
> license for some asshole/dumb ass to make driving miserable for
> everyone else. The same applies to radios. There are to many
> assholes/dumbass's. Please don't use government control paranoia
> to justify your lack of common sense.
How do you equate my statement about modulation limiters
to a lack of common sense? My statement has nothing to
do with government control paranoia--it's simply the truth
of the matter.
It sounds to me like you've had run-ins with operators who
abuse their control, so now you want to get even by chastising
anyone who advocates removing modulation limiters. If doing
so eases your pain, be my guest.
Avalanche
AMEN Bill. Well stated.
Bill Eitner wrote in message <34D81E...@earthlink.net>...
>Mogath1 wrote:
>>
>> What happens when TR-32 (Modulation Limiter?) is cut? Does this make it a
>> splash machine? Is that ALL that's involved in turning up the modulation
in one
>> of these? I don't wanna splash adjacent channels with bleedover. If
anyone out
>> there can guide me in this I'd appreciate it. Thanks
>
> No, removing TR32 doesn't automatically make the radio
> bleed over. The idea behind removing the modulation
> limiter is that it takes control of the modulation
> percentage away from the government and gives it back
> to you--the actual user. From then on it's up to you
> to take charge of it. What that means is that YOU have
> to concern yourself with how high you run the mic gain
> on YOUR radio. If YOU are receiving complaints about
> bleedover, YOU, as a reasonable radio operator, should
> turn the mic gain down--that's all there is to it. In
> other words, if you take it easy on the mic gain, your
> radio will sound no different that the same radio with
> it's modulation limiter intact. Removing the limiter
> does nothing other than put YOU in control. Are YOU
> a responsible radio operator? If so, YOU deserve control
> over YOUR modulation percentage.
>
> 73
The2X4
In article <34D8E7...@earthlink.net>, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
writes:
> If YOU are receiving complaints about
> > bleedover, YOU, as a
>reasonable radio operator, should
> > turn the mic gain down--that's
>all there is to it
Billy when you gonna get right?
Users don't want clean signals they want loud signals.
That reasonable radio operator is BS.
Ain't 'at how you make a living? If it ain't then you ain't!
I repaired CB radios for nearly thirty years and had less
then 10 users wanting good clean signals.
You purest guardians ain't got a lick a sense
when it comes to how things really are.
Billy's got an excuse.
He can blame it on the liquor.
The rest of ya' should know better.
Carl
fp...@valinet.com
On 1998-02-04 kd6...@earthlink.net said:
kd>> >> What happens when TR-32 (Modulation Limiter?) is cut? Does
kd>>this make it a >> splash machine?
kd>> > No, removing TR32 doesn't automatically make the radio
kd>> > bleed over. The idea behind removing the modulation
kd>> > limiter is that it takes control of the modulation
kd>> > percentage away from the government and gives it back
kd>> > to you--the actual user.
kd>> The only problem with taking the modulation control away from the
kd>> government and into the hands of joe citizen is there are too many
kd>> joe citizen assholes and joe citizen dumb ass.
kd>It sounds to me like you've had run-ins with operators who
kd>abuse their control, so now you want to get even by chastising
kd>anyone who advocates removing modulation limiters. If doing
kd>so eases your pain, be my guest.
kd>73
kd>-=[Bill Eitner]=- III
What's all this talk about removing this `n` that to improve
modulation? Seems to me that anyone that wants a "decent sounding rig" only
has to get an external device (or mike) that will increase the "average talk
power" (as we use to call it back in the mid 60's)..were talking about
COMPRESSION! Save yourself the time and aggravation messing around inside
the radio..get something that'll increase the "lows" and control the
"highs"..they still do make those don't they? Oh, and BTW, we're not talking
about "preamplifiers"..although compression and amplification do work, there
should already be enough (amplification) in a "stock radio.
Regards.
Fran
Blow your mind, smoke gunpowder.
Net-Tamer V 1.10.1 - Registered
Charles Davis
In article <19980205141...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
the...@aol.com says...
The problem is laziness. MOST operators are just too lazy to take the
time to get their rigs set up decently. You can have a loud, and clean
station, IF you take the time, and buy good equipment. It's just too easy
to go plunk down $50.00 for a radio, spend a little having it butchered,
and buying an amplifier that is nasty. Add an echo, and a beep. What you
have then is a station that is WIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE!!!!!!!!! Radio checks go
something like this,(need a .wav here). "HOW'S THIS SOUND SOUND SOUND
sound sound, tweedle de beep." (MUCH MUCH distortion, crappy audio, but
it's LOUD.) "Man ......You are BLOWING SMOKE!!!!! Loud as hell!!!!! Can
you repeat what you said? I didn't quite understand." After a few minutes
of this he finally gets the audio, and echo turned down so he is at least
recognisable as human. Now he is just splattering 8 or 10 channels for 10
miles. You can't really talk like this. Try sitting in a room full of
your friends hollering through megaphones. Don't forget to go "tweedle de
beep" after each sentence.
Sorry about the tirade, but I just don't get it.
--
-=>Chas<=-
<<I'm the NRA>>
Dave Hall
The2X4 wrote:
>
> In article <34D8E7...@earthlink.net>, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
> writes:
>
> > If YOU are receiving complaints about
> > > bleedover, YOU, as a
> >reasonable radio operator, should
> > > turn the mic gain down--that's
> >all there is to it
>
> Billy when you gonna get right?
> Users don't want clean signals they want loud signals.
> That reasonable radio operator is BS.
This is because the typical CBer just wants bigger bigger BIGGER. They
don't have a clue technically are are at the mercy of the screwdriver
techs that fill their heads will all sorts of mythical "CBTECH" BS.
Contrary to what you might think, there are some of us, that aren't
lawless malcontents, and have some consideration for our fellow
operators.
>
> Ain't 'at how you make a living? If it ain't then you ain't!
>
> I repaired CB radios for nearly thirty years and had less
> then 10 users wanting good clean signals.
Maybe you need to find a better crowd.
>
> You purest guardians ain't got a lick a sense
> when it comes to how things really are.
Well, in MY little corner of the world, I managed to educate the locals
that peaking and clipping is not the way to go, by SHOWING them the
difference. And when complaints of TVI went down, they were doubly glad.
>
> Billy's got an excuse.
> He can blame it on the liquor.
>
> The rest of ya' should know better.
Yea sure, I have to wonder about someone, who is supposed to know
better, but choses to ignore it, instead preaching a disregard for rules
and good RF practice........
>
> Carl
>
Dave
Dave Hall
> > writes:
> >
> > > If YOU are receiving complaints about
> > > > bleedover, YOU, as a
> > >reasonable radio operator, should
> > > > turn the mic gain down--that's
> > >all there is to it
> >
> > Billy when you gonna get right?
> > Users don't want clean signals they want loud signals.
> > That reasonable radio operator is BS.
> >
> >
> > I repaired CB radios for nearly thirty years and had less
> > then 10 users wanting good clean signals.
> >
> > when it comes to how things really are.
> >
> > He can blame it on the liquor.
> >
> > The rest of ya' should know better.
> >
>
> The problem is laziness. MOST operators are just too lazy to take the
> time to get their rigs set up decently. You can have a loud, and clean
> station, IF you take the time, and buy good equipment. It's just too easy
> to go plunk down $50.00 for a radio, spend a little having it butchered,
> and buying an amplifier that is nasty. Add an echo, and a beep. What you
> have then is a station that is WIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE!!!!!!!!! Radio checks go
> something like this,(need a .wav here). "HOW'S THIS SOUND SOUND SOUND
> sound sound, tweedle de beep." (MUCH MUCH distortion, crappy audio, but
> it's LOUD.) "Man ......You are BLOWING SMOKE!!!!! Loud as hell!!!!! Can
> you repeat what you said? I didn't quite understand." After a few minutes
> of this he finally gets the audio, and echo turned down so he is at least
> recognisable as human. Now he is just splattering 8 or 10 channels for 10
> miles. You can't really talk like this. Try sitting in a room full of
> your friends hollering through megaphones. Don't forget to go "tweedle de
> beep" after each sentence.
> Sorry about the tirade, but I just don't get it.
You don't get it because you still have some working brain cells. Those
people who insist on running those noise boxes and dirty rigs, wouldn't
know a brain cell if it was floating in their beer mug..........
> --
Dave
"Sandbagger"
Charles Davis
In article <34D9FE...@worldlynx.net>,
nojunkmai...@worldlynx.net says...
> You don't get it because you still have some working brain cells. Those
> people who insist on running those noise boxes and dirty rigs, wouldn't
> know a brain cell if it was floating in their beer mug..........
> "Sandbagger"
I've been thinking since I wrote that. Shouldn't do that too much.
I've been fooling with CB off and on for 25 years. At one time I was
running a Cobra 2000, D-104, Starduster @ 85ft., Shooting Star Beam @ 40
ft., and a Magnum DX750 driven by a Black Cat 150. Never did get into the
"noise toys". I quit just before the beeps, and echos took off.
I also went through a period when I drove a dragstrip ready 1970 Chevelle
SS454. Just for fun I had a tricked 750 Honda with open drag pipes. Man
were all these things LOUD AND PROUD. Noisy don't even come close.
Do I miss them? Hell yes! Would I like to have all that back? Durn
right! I would tone down the exhaust on the engines, and clean up the
audio on the station before I subjected anyone to them again tho.
My station and rides are much different today. I still go, and talk where
I want to. More comfortable, and sound better on the air too.
I guess I'm just becoming one of those "Old Pharts" I keep hearing people
referring to. Or maybe I just grew up.
Thanks for listening,
Dave Hall
You hit the nail right on the head. When I started in CB (1970) and
learned the fundamentals of electronics, I was a bit of a snot-nosed
teenager, who did what I wanted and blasted anyone who thought
otherwise. The whole crew of people I hung with were the same way. At
that time I had all of my radios peaked to the max, and anything that
resembled a modulation limiter was yanked out. I had a D&A maverick 250
on the base and numerous amps in the car. If people complained of
bleedover, the standard answer was "Get a bandaid".
It's funny what happens when you pass 30, and start to see things from a
much more mature perspective. I run a much cleaner station now. I go for
high quality audio, as opposed to loudest audio. The proliferation of
consumer electronic widgets has made me more conscious of TVI problems
and I no longer run any extra power in the house. In the mobile I still
run an amp, but it is a class AB, and it is driven so that it can
develop its maximum modulation percentage (Instead of "balls to the
wall" for maximum carrier wattage). The quality of the audio is superb.
So no, I'm no "legal-beagle" purist, but I now understand alot more
technically, have better test equipment, and desire QUALITY over
QUANTITY.
Dave
"Sandbagger"
Charles Davis
In article <34DA2E...@worldlynx.net>,
nojunkmai...@worldlynx.net says...
> I had a D&A maverick 250 on the base and numerous amps in the car.
Ah........The "Little Horse Amp." Amazing what that thing would do with a
BC 150 driving it.
I never had much of a mobile setup. Was really a waste of time here. Too
many bases with higher antennas. Height IS might!!!
> If people complained of bleedover, the standard answer was "Get a bandaid".
You were kind. I knew a Band-Aid wasn't enough. Let's see
now........Ah......I told them to buy a device that women use on a
monthly basis for gender specific bodily functions. Naturally I used just
one word. Not sure if I could have formed that thought in my younger
years.
> It's funny what happens when you pass 30, and start to see things from a
> much more mature perspective.
I think what happened to me was, I started living 35 miles away from
work, and really wanted to communicate with my girlfriend. Very seldom
possible. If there was no one else on the air, bleeding, and throwing
keys, we had no problem but this was NOT normal. Made me do a lot of
thinking. First it was crystal swaps to get "our own freq." Bleedover was
still a problem, but competing on the same channel was eliminated. Next
it was better radios, with SSB. After finally getting things to work as
they should, instead of as the FCC said the should, this was a VAST
improvement.
After quitting in 1986, I didn't even hear another CB radio until March
of '96. Went by a friends house one day, and there sat a Galaxy Saturn. I
almost got a ha......I got excited. Prettiest radio I think I ever saw. I
sat and listened for over an hour. Actually made some contacts. Seemed
like it was MUCH quieter than I remembered. I decided it may just be time
to get back into things.
Got me a DX-11B. A Palomar Elite 500. Antron-99. D-104 naturally. My
memory was still working, so I left things intact in the radio. Just
turned things "to the right". Durn thing talked! Not much on the receive
end. It was OK, but a close fairly strong station would give me a
harmonic carrier at times. Still, all in all, not bad. Didn't take me a
week of listening to "Donkey Pharts, Women in Heat, and that infernal
Tarzan". Not even to mention the multitude of sounds that seem to be
required to inform others you have stopped talking to convince me to get
rid of the echo, and beep.
I've gone back to SSB, with only the occasional foray into AM. I still
have a few friends that haven't seen the light, but I'm still hoping.
I've also gotten rid of the Galaxy, and the Palomar. Kept the A-99, and
D-104. Decided I was serious about talking, and not playing. My new
station cost more, but then again I hear and talk better than ever.
> I run a much cleaner station now. I go for
> high quality audio, as opposed to loudest audio. The proliferation of
> consumer electronic widgets has made me more conscious of TVI problems
> and I no longer run any extra power in the house.
I can still put considerable "fire in the wire", if needed. Seldom is
tho. Only thing I bother is those touch control lamps.
> In the mobile I still run an amp, but it is a class AB, and it is driven
> so that it can develop its maximum modulation percentage
> (Instead of "balls to the wall" for maximum carrier wattage).
> The quality of the audio is superb.
I run a Mirage 2950, (finally got one to stay together) that is basically
stock, unamplified mike, Wilson 1000, and a small amp on mobile. I NEVER
talk AM mobile. I can talk from my home in Reidsville, NC, to Darlington
SC, without too much trouble, IF it's quiet. 30 miles to and from work.
Piece of cake.
> So no, I'm no "legal-beagle" purist, but I now understand alot more
> technically, have better test equipment, and desire QUALITY over
> QUANTITY.
Almost the same here. I'm still not a tech, and only "an appliance
operator." I can set up a station with decent equipment.
We monitor 27.390 LSB, and the only problem we have is, I think someone
is putting "Times Two" switches in dump trucks here.
19 X 2 = 38. Tried asking them to stay a little lower. No luck. Can't
shut them down. 500 watts/100 yards= I CAN TALK!!!! I just wait till
they're gone.
Mogath1
In article <34D81E...@earthlink.net>, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
writes:
>
> What happens when TR-32 (Modulation Limiter?) is cut? Does this make it
>a
> splash machine? Is that ALL that's involved in turning up the modulation
>in one
> of these? I don't wanna splash adjacent channels with bleedover. If
>anyone out
> there can guide me in this I'd appreciate it. Thanks
No,
>removing TR32 doesn't automatically make the radio
bleed over. The idea
>behind removing the modulation
limiter is that it takes control of the
>modulation
percentage away from the government and gives it back
to
>you--the actual user. From then on it's up to you
to take charge of it.
>What that means is that YOU have
to concern yourself with how high you run
>the mic gain
on YOUR radio. If YOU are receiving complaints
>about
bleedover, YOU, as a reasonable radio operator, should
turn the mic
>gain down--that's all there is to it. In
other words, if you take it easy
>on the mic gain, your
radio will sound no different that the same radio with
>
it's modulation limiter intact. Removing the limiter
does nothing other
>than put YOU in control. Are YOU
a responsible radio operator? If so, YOU
>deserve control
over YOUR modulation percentage.
73
--
The reason I ask is this. I've never really done anything other than wire up a
few mics and I don't wanna damage anything inside the radio. From the responses
I've gotten on this it seems like it basically just makes the radio a bit
louder. I never really run that loud anyway, but when someone says that my mic
is too loud I usually turn it down. I RARELY get complaints anyway. I didn't
realize it was that easy to do. Thanks for all the replies.
Bill Eitner
The2X4 wrote:
>
> In article <34D8E7...@earthlink.net>, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
> writes:
>
> > If YOU are receiving complaints about
> > > bleedover, YOU, as a
> >reasonable radio operator, should
> > > turn the mic gain down--that's
>
> Billy when you gonna get right?
> Users don't want clean signals they want loud signals.
> That reasonable radio operator is BS.
>
> Ain't 'at how you make a living? If it ain't then you ain't!
>
> I repaired CB radios for nearly thirty years and had less
> then 10 users wanting good clean signals.
>
> You purest guardians ain't got a lick a sense
> when it comes to how things really are.
>
> Billy's got an excuse.
> He can blame it on the liquor.
>
> The rest of ya' should know better.
>
> Carl
>
That's my Carly.
--
----------------------------------------
\ /
___ | ___
A
/ | \
-=[Bill Eitner]=- III
III
III
_________III_________
Charles Davis
In article <19980206013...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
mog...@aol.com says...
> Yes it IS funny. Something does seem to happen when you pass thirty. Heheh! I
> first got into cb in 1977 with my dad. He had them ALL. My fave was his DAK
> Mark XI!! Anyone who has seen one knows they need no description.
I said the Saturn "type" of radio was the prettiest I had ever seen. What
I should have said was "One of the prettiest." The DAK is like a
beautiful blond. Pretty to look at, and play with, but not much in the
attic. The Saturns are like Redheads. All fiery, and with plenty to play
around with. They are temperamental tho. Have to be handled just so, but
if you get a cooperative one, man they are fun.
> I was in and
> out of the hobby for a few years. My best radio was a MINT Navaho 457. It went
> 100 below channel one and it went to 28.250!! Kicked it with a 250 watt Black
> Cat and used a D-104 Silver Eagle to talk. Heheh! Splashed EVERYWHERE and
> didn't care. Even talked on channel NINE.
I knew most of our REACT team, and would be out late messing around.
Holler, "BREAK 9. Anyone out there?" Naturally someone would answer. I'd
very politely say, "Glad to hear that. I may be fixin' to get into
something. Just making sure you guys were paying attention. I MAY need
some help at any time."
Some of them didn't think this was funny. Especially at 2:00am.
> I was a real piss pot! Then I got
> outta the hobby until about 1986. By then my first daughter had arrived and the
> money for equipment was scarce. Eventually I got out of it altogether. A couple
> years back I got back in. better paying jobs let you do that. I ran a Kenwood
> TS140S modified for 11 meters, but it just wasn't the same as a CB! heheh! Go
> figure. I didn't want to blow that kind of money on it anymore anyway.
Too bad. Here was the Brunette you had been looking for all your life.
Plenty in the attic. Enough extras to be fun, and naughty too. This one
you could take home to meet Mama, and she would approve. She came pretty
well equipped too. Especially for SSB use. Shoulda kept this one.
> I sold
> that and got a dinky little mobile and pahrt around with that. I STILL SCREAM
> as far as audio, but I keep it to a dull roar and try not to splash anymore. I
> am considering buying a NEW radio. I've narrowed it down to a Washington or a
> 148 GTL.
Good rigs. To do it right, you'll need to figure in a little more than
just the price of the radio. They're not as well equipped as that 140
gal. Bet you're beginning to miss her now. Look around. She may be
waiting for you again just around the corner.
> Still haven't decided.
Surely half the fun. What to do/buy next?
> The ONE thing in cb that has stayed constant
> over the years is the bullshit! STILL there is always SOMEONE out there
> throwing noise carriers. Listening to that now makes me laugh and realize how
> MINDLESS I was all those years ago. I guess *I* grew up too. heheheh! Just my 2
> cents
Except for the echos, and beeps, things seem better now. Maybe just not
as many people on.
Now if I can just get someone to admit to that X 2 button.
Mogath1
In article <34D9FE...@worldlynx.net>, Dave Hall
<nojunkmai...@worldlynx.net> writes:
>> miles. You can't really talk like this. Try sitting in a room full of
>
>your friends hollering through megaphones. Don't forget to go "tweedle de
>
>beep" after each sentence.
> Sorry about the tirade, but I just don't get
>it.
You don't get it because you still have some working brain cells.
>Those
people who insist on running those noise boxes and dirty rigs,
>wouldn't
know a brain cell if it was floating in their beer mug..........
>
>--
AHAHahahah!! Those echo mikes are the WORST thing to ever happen to radio.
Ahahah!!
Mogath1
In article <34DA2E...@worldlynx.net>, Dave Hall
<nojunkmai...@worldlynx.net> writes:
>You hit the nail right on the head. When I started in CB (1970) and
learned
>the fundamentals of electronics, I was a bit of a snot-nosed
teenager, who
>did what I wanted and blasted anyone who thought
otherwise. The whole crew of
>people I hung with were the same way. At
that time I had all of my radios
>peaked to the max, and anything that
resembled a modulation limiter was
>yanked out. I had a D&A maverick 250
on the base and numerous amps in the
>car. If people complained of
bleedover, the standard answer was "Get a
>bandaid".
It's funny what happens when you pass 30, and start to see things
>from a
much more mature perspective. I run a much cleaner station now. I go
>for
high quality audio, as opposed to loudest audio. The proliferation
>of
consumer electronic widgets has made me more conscious of TVI problems
and
>I no longer run any extra power in the house. In the mobile I still
run an
>amp, but it is a class AB, and it is driven so that it can
develop its
>maximum modulation percentage (Instead of "balls to the
wall" for maximum
>carrier wattage). The quality of the audio is superb.
So no, I'm no
>"legal-beagle" purist, but I now understand alot more
technically, have
>better test equipment, and desire QUALITY over
QUANTITY.
Dave
"Sandbagger"
Yes it IS funny. Something does seem to happen when you pass thirty. Heheh! I
first got into cb in 1977 with my dad. He had them ALL. My fave was his DAK
Mark XI!! Anyone who has seen one knows they need no description. I was in and
out of the hobby for a few years. My best radio was a MINT Navaho 457. It went
100 below channel one and it went to 28.250!! Kicked it with a 250 watt Black
Cat and used a D-104 Silver Eagle to talk. Heheh! Splashed EVERYWHERE and
didn't care. Even talked on channel NINE. I was a real piss pot! Then I got
outta the hobby until about 1986. By then my first daughter had arrived and the
money for equipment was scarce. Eventually I got out of it altogether. A couple
years back I got back in. better paying jobs let you do that. I ran a Kenwood
TS140S modified for 11 meters, but it just wasn't the same as a CB! heheh! Go
figure. I didn't want to blow that kind of money on it anymore anyway. I sold
that and got a dinky little mobile and pahrt around with that. I STILL SCREAM
as far as audio, but I keep it to a dull roar and try not to splash anymore. I
am considering buying a NEW radio. I've narrowed it down to a Washington or a
148 GTL. Still haven't decided. The ONE thing in cb that has stayed constant
The2X4
In article <34D9FD...@worldlynx.net>, Dave Hall
<nojunkmai...@worldlynx.net> writes:
>> In article <34D8E7...@earthlink.net>, Bill Eitner
><kd6...@earthlink.net>
> writes:
>
> > If YOU are receiving complaints
>about
> > > bleedover, YOU, as a
> >reasonable radio operator, should
>
>> > turn the mic gain down--that's
> >all there is to it
>
Carl writ:
> Billy
>when you gonna get right?
> Users don't want clean signals they want loud
>signals.
> That reasonable radio operator is BS.
Dave wrote:
This is because the typical
>CBer just wants bigger bigger BIGGER. They
don't have a clue technically are
>are at the mercy of the screwdriver
techs that fill their heads will all
>sorts of mythical "CBTECH" BS.
Contrary to what you might think, there are
>some of us, that aren't
lawless malcontents, and have some consideration for
>our fellow
operators.
>
> Ain't 'at how you make a living? If it ain't then
>you ain't!
>
> I repaired CB radios for nearly thirty years and had less
>
>then 10 users wanting good clean signals.
DAve wrote:
Maybe you need to find a better
>crowd.
Carl writ:
An' starved huh?
>
> You purest guardians ain't got a lick a sense
> when it comes to
>how things really are.
DAve wrote:
Well, in MY little corner of the world, I managed to
>educate the locals
that peaking and clipping is not the way to go, by SHOWING
>them the
difference. And when complaints of TVI went down, they were doubly
>glad.
Carl writ:
That went well while your guru influence was emanating. But as soon as they
realized that now their friends on the channel had louder signals all your
efforts
were for naught because you showed them where to ' make it better'.
>
> Billy's got an excuse.
> He can blame it on the liquor.
>
> The
>rest of ya' should know better.
Dave wrote:
Yea sure, I have to wonder about someone,
>who is supposed to know
better, but choses to ignore it, instead preaching a
>disregard for rules
and good RF practice........
Carl writ:
When are you purest guardians gonna get the message?
It is the customers radio! He brought it to you for
high performance improvements not so YOU can have a stronger signal
than he/she does. 100% modulation won't get you across the street.
Anyone who has spent a week in CB repair knows that.
Preachin'...good RF practice....sounds like a 2 day newbie.
>
> Carl
>
Dave
The2x4
tn...@muck.net
>When are you purest guardians gonna get the message?
>It is the customers radio! He brought it to you for
>high performance improvements not so YOU can have a stronger signal
>than he/she does. 100% modulation won't get you across the street.
>Anyone who has spent a week in CB repair knows that.
When are you, the purest of idiots gonna get the message?
It is my radio your working on when you clip the limiters. I did
not consent for you to trash the recieve on my radio.
Andrew Cody
Greetings!
tn...@muck.net wrote in message <34dae59...@news.tir.com>...
[<<<<SNIP>>>>]
>When are you, the purest of idiots gonna get the message?
>It is my radio your working on when you clip the limiters. I did
>not consent for you to trash the recieve on my radio.
A good point.
Perhaps something needs to be clarified here...
1] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you now want it
"peaked and tweaked" - I have a problem with this statement.
-Why, "peak and tweak"? Doesn't the radio perform to your needs?
-If it doesn't work like you want it to - get one that will.
2] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you don't want
people to mess with it - this I understand.
If you "peak and tweak" by yourself - it's your responsibility.
If you let someone else "peak and tweak" your radio - it's
still your responsibility - only now, you don't have any
control over what the "tech" does to the radio - in their
eyes - you want "BIGGER is BETTER" and they will
accomodate those that want this...and you pay for their
abuse - if that is the word for it.
Just remember that the "others" around your station - will
float their "techs - Peak and Tweak" mods out into the air,
whether you're listening to it or not. AND whether they
care about it or not - it's their choice - not yours.
[If they get thrown out of the place they're in - well, whos'
going to notice the difference? But, if they own the place...
Well - good luck in attempting to have them "See it your way".]
Those that make the "choice" to "peek then tweak", or is
it "Peak and Tweek"? Something like that...;-) - will always
be on the channel you're listening to - no matter what channel
they may THINK they're on...
Hmm...it's still a good point though - but it can turn into that
fateful "mobius loop" scientists are rhetorical on.
I can see both sides of this issue - but I'm at a loss
to help you in finding an amicable solution to this
endless, and progressive, problem.
Just wanted to let you know that you are heard,
but others won't - or can't - because of the interference
the "others" have created for those that do care about
what they hear.
== A greeting from the gang at codyspc! ===
|\m/| We have never met a cat that |\m/|
(@ @) doesn't say "Meow!" ( - +)
==+============================+==
:+> Andy & Susan - Squeaky & Screamy <+:
http://www.iserv.net/~codyspc/
-- Hello there! rev. 1.E-09a Beta
DISCLAIMER:
The opinions expressed in this message are not of the
management - or for that matter - any other carbon-based
life form...
The2X4
In article <6beu45$igo$1...@news5.ispnews.com>, "Andrew Cody" <cod...@iserv.net>
writes:
>
tn...@muck.net wrote in message
><34dae59...@news.tir.com>...
[<<<<SNIP>>>>]
>When are you, the purest
>of idiots gonna get the message?
>It is my radio your working on when you
>clip the limiters. I did=20
>not consent for you to trash the recieve on my
>radio.
A good point.
Perhaps something needs to be clarified here...
1]
>You paid good money to buy a radio - and you now want it=20
"peaked and
>tweaked" - I have a problem with this statement.
-Why, "peak and tweak"?
>Doesn't the radio perform to your needs?
-If it doesn't work like you want it
>to - get one that will.
2] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you
>don't want=20
people to mess with it - this I understand.
If you "peak and
>tweak" by yourself - it's your responsibility.
If you let someone else "peak
>and tweak" your radio - it's=20
still your responsibility - only now, you
>don't have any=20
control over what the "tech" does to the radio - in
>their
eyes - you want "BIGGER is BETTER" and they will=20
accomodate those
>that want this...and you pay for their
abuse - if that is the word for
>it.=20
Just remember that the "others" around your station - will
float
>their "techs - Peak and Tweak" mods out into the air,
whether you're
>listening to it or not. AND whether they=20
>that do care about=20
what they hear.
=20
=3D=3D A greeting from the gang at
>codyspc! =3D=3D=3D
|\m/| We have never met a cat that |\m/|
(@ @)
>doesn't say "Meow!" ( -
>+)
=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D
>=20
:+> Andy & Susan - Squeaky & Screamy
><+:
http://www.iserv.net/~codyspc/
-- Hello there! rev.
>1.E-09a Beta
DISCLAIMER:
The opinions expressed in this message are not of
>the
management - or for that matter - any other carbon-based
life form...
Sometin' is right.......
Carl
Bill Eitner
Andrew Cody wrote:
>
> Greetings!
>
> tn...@muck.net wrote in message <34dae59...@news.tir.com>...
>
> [<<<<SNIP>>>>]
> >When are you, the purest of idiots gonna get the message?
> >It is my radio your working on when you clip the limiters. I did
world--then you could control what others do.
> A good point.
>
> Perhaps something needs to be clarified here...
>
> 1] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you now want it
> "peaked and tweaked" - I have a problem with this statement.
> -Why, "peak and tweak"? Doesn't the radio perform to your needs?
Obviously not.
> -If it doesn't work like you want it to - get one that will.
What if NO stock radio performs to ones needs?
> 2] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you don't want
> people to mess with it.
Then don't bring it to a shop talking like you
want the performance increased.
> If you "peak and tweak" by yourself - it's your responsibility.
Yet the job you do is likely to be inferior to
what can be done professionally.
> If you let someone else "peak and tweak" your radio - it's
> still your responsibility
To a certain degree.
> only now, you don't have any
> control over what the "tech" does to the radio
That's not true.
> in their
> eyes - you want "BIGGER is BETTER" and they will
> accomodate those that want this...and you pay for their
> abuse - if that is the word for it.
They will do what you want them to do.
Do you know what you want?
==============Some standand Cody filler glop deleted.=================
> I can see both sides of this issue - but I'm at a loss
> to help you in finding an amicable solution to this
> endless, and progressive, problem.
Boy, that's helpful.
==============More glop deleted.======================================
73 to all.
Bill Eitner
tn...@muck.net wrote:
>
> On Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:52:44 -0800, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> 1] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you now want it
> >> "peaked and tweaked" - I have a problem with this statement.
> >> -Why, "peak and tweak"? Doesn't the radio perform to your needs?
> >
> > Obviously not.
> >
> >> -If it doesn't work like you want it to - get one that will.
> >
> > What if NO stock radio performs to ones needs?
> >
> >> 2] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you don't want
> >> people to mess with it.
> >
> > Then don't bring it to a shop talking like you
> > want the performance increased.
> >
> >> If you "peak and tweak" by yourself - it's your responsibility.
> >
> > Yet the job you do is likely to be inferior to
> > what can be done professionally.
>
>
> Bill
>
> If you're an example of a proffesional then Sadaam Hussein
> is an example of goodness. The truth is Sadaam Hussein is
> a butcher of people and you're a butcher of radio's/airwaves.
In your opinion.
> Obviously you are ignorant of the fact that you can get all
> the performance that you could possibly use with the use of
> sound established techniques.
How do you define "all the performance you could
possibly use?"
I think it's you that's short-sighted and ignorant.
> Techniques based on sound
> judgement and years of experience.
Legal techniques have been applied to CB for years.
They haven't stood up to the test of time.
> Clipping limiters is not one of
> them.
This is untrue.
The standard tune-up (which includes defeating the
AMC circuit) IS the technique that HAS stood the
test of time. You just refuse to accept it.
> Clipping limiters is something Emmitt used to do at Emmitts
> Fix-It shop before Goober suggested a better way. If Goober can
> figure it out, why can't you?
What does this mean? Sounds like the ramblings
of an idiot to me.
> Performance is what we are talking about, isn't it?
You don't even know how to define it, much
less achieve it. To me, all it seems like
you want to do is push away the facts because
they don't coincide with how life would be in
your little world.
> If performance
> is what your looking for, and your definition of performance is not a
> sound effect, or distortion, or ability to bleed, then all one has to
> do is use:
>
> Power, clean power, power that is much less likely to bleed than
> just one clipped radio.
Power is a factor; but you're looking at it through
rose-colored glasses.
> Power that can only be gotten from well
> designed amplifiers ran at proper levels. 500 watts of clean power
> coupled with a clean radio will bleed less than one clipped radio!!
What do you base that on?
Modern, mass-produced consumer electronic devices have
just as much trouble rejecting 27 MHz energy as they
do with 54 or 81 MHz energy. That means RF overload
due to the energy contained in the FUNDAMENTAL 27 MHz
signal is just as much a culprit in consumer electronic
interference as the harmonics generated by a peaked
radio. That tends to blow your "clean power" theory
right out of the water.
As for bleedover in the CB band; see my post to the
"AM limiter" thread. It explains how what you think
are perfectly legal and OK radios can be interference
generators. Couple that with your "clean power" and
see what you get.
> And better yet, it will outperform any clipped radio. I'm not
> advocating running these power levels, but I'd rather see that than
> one clipped radio.
Than you're an idiot.
You don't know what you're talking about.
You assume that stock CB radios are spectrally pure,
and, given that, amplifying a stock CBs signal 100
fold won't cause problems. You couldn't be more wrong.
Generally, I won't fool with the ignorant-aggressive
types; but, in this case I made an exception. Consider
it a gift, and use it as a spring-board to greater
knowledge.
73
tn...@muck.net
>> 1] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you now want it
>> "peaked and tweaked" - I have a problem with this statement.
>> -Why, "peak and tweak"? Doesn't the radio perform to your needs?
>
> Obviously not.
>
>> -If it doesn't work like you want it to - get one that will.
>
> What if NO stock radio performs to ones needs?
>
>> 2] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you don't want
>> people to mess with it.
>
> Then don't bring it to a shop talking like you
> want the performance increased.
>
>> If you "peak and tweak" by yourself - it's your responsibility.
>
> Yet the job you do is likely to be inferior to
> what can be done professionally.
Clipping Limiters:
Bill
If you're an example of a proffesional then Sadaam Hussein
is an example of goodness. The truth is Sadaam Hussein is
a butcher of people and you're a butcher of radio's/airwaves.
Obviously you are ignorant of the fact that you can get all
the performance that you could possibly use with the use of
sound established techniques. Techniques based on sound
judgement and years of experience. Clipping limiters is not one of
them. Clipping limiters is something Emmitt used to do at Emmitts
Fix-It shop before Goober suggested a better way. If Goober can
figure it out, why can't you?
Performance is what we are talking about, isn't it? If performance
is what your looking for, and your definition of performance is not a
sound effect, or distortion, or ability to bleed, then all one has to
do is use:
Power, clean power, power that is much less likely to bleed than
just one clipped radio. Power that can only be gotten from well
designed amplifiers ran at proper levels. 500 watts of clean power
coupled with a clean radio will bleed less than one clipped radio!!
The2X4
>
Clipping Limiters:
Bill
I don't know lets see 500 watts clean sounds better than a barefoot clipped
radio.
I'd have to think about that. You may be right! Boy! Stay in context son......
Like I said before a 2 day newbie!
Carl
Andrew Cody
Greetings!
Bill Eitner wrote in message <34DBB0...@earthlink.net>...
>Andrew Cody wrote:
>>
>> Greetings!
>>
>> tn...@muck.net wrote in message <34dae59...@news.tir.com>...
>>
>> [<<<<SNIP>>>>]
>> >When are you, the purest of idiots gonna get the message?
>> >It is my radio your working on when you clip the limiters. I did
>> >not consent for you to trash the recieve on my radio.
>
> Well, it's too bad you're not the king of the
> world--then you could control what others do.
This is something between you and the sender of the
message I replied to - yes, I do agree it was rather
strong worded - but...
>> 1] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you now want it
>> "peaked and tweaked" - I have a problem with this statement.
>> -Why, "peak and tweak"? Doesn't the radio perform to your >>needs?
>
> Obviously not.
>
>> -If it doesn't work like you want it to - get one that will.
>
> What if NO stock radio performs to ones needs?
ROTFL!
Then the "operator" is asking for more - so supply some
accessories to the package, and you have a deal! If you
think that killing a radio means money in your pocket - then
that is your prerogative - don't lump "all" meaning with "What
if NO" - there are people that consider this a useless
comparision - you don't buy a Metro - and expect it to
run like a Corvette. There are other radios that perform
quite nicely with only a simple addition of a power mike,
and I'm saying - straight out of the box - but they're not
cheap.
If you worked for Radio Shack - the Store Manager will
drag you off to the side and say "Tell them to CHARGE IT!".
Ever try to sell a Battery for $299? You tell them they get
a Cable-Ready VCR for free!
>> 2] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you don't want
>> people to mess with it.
>
> Then don't bring it to a shop talking like you
> want the performance increased.
Hmm. A good "politically correct" statement - so a "newbie"
to See-Bee is supposed to say "I want L2 tuned to the right
voltage level at TP2. And NO! It's not 1.9 volts - IT'S 2.0 -
got it? [Tech nodding in agreement...]"
AW come off it Bill - performance is a grey issue - the newbie
needs some instruction from their "elmer" - and it's usually
the Tech themselves that have to help them understand what
they are really asking them to do...
[Ok, so you have to charge extra - NO PROBLEM!]
[CB radio-101]: The art of Peak and Tweak of Type-Accepted
Radios - Pass the Responsibility to Someone Else...
- Teacher: Eitner, Bill Cost: 4 Credit Hours
>> If you "peak and tweak" by yourself - it's your responsibility.
>
> Yet the job you do is likely to be inferior to
> what can be done professionally.
"Professionally" - by what definition? I'm thinking that the
people that made the radio that's being prepared for surgey
ought to be consulted - or is that, insulted...? ;-)
>> If you let someone else "peak and tweak" your radio - it's
>> still your responsibility
>
> To a certain degree.
Hmm... as far as I can tell - the owner is still responsible for
what that radio may, or may not, do - directly, or indirectly.
After all - when it leaves the tech shop - the newbie sets up the
station - presto! - the room fills with magic smoke - you want
the - now gasping - newbie to blame the tech, right?
Oh, ok...cool! This gets a lot of people off the hook with you!
[A phone rings at the White House, "no, Bill is not here right now"...]
[*click*]
>> only now, you don't have any
>> control over what the "tech" does to the radio
>
> That's not true.
See above - how many techs are going to spill their guts and
show how the radio is converted from the 4 popper to a full
fledged V8 without headers - hmm, sounds kinda' foolish.
As soon as the newbie finds out what makes their bread and
butter - hmmm... Hey Look! A new sign is going up! It looks like...
Yes...*IT IS*! A new CB shop - featuring "Tuneups for $19.95!"
And you charge $25, just to look at it...[for example]
Someone comes out the winner - and the others whine...
[We find ourselves at the local Truck Stop - the Waiter arrives
to take the order [odor?]...
Todays special - Deep fried Diodes!
"Ahem...I'll take the house special - with Sour Cream Solder"
Bill? Your turn, I'll pick up the tab...
>> in their
>> eyes - you want "BIGGER is BETTER" and they will
>> accomodate those that want this...and you pay for their
>> abuse - if that is the word for it.
>
> They will do what you want them to do.
>
> Do you know what you want?
Yes, all I ask for, is to make sure it works - and if it doesn't,
I won't pay...However Bill, this realm is from my own personal
opinion - do not get it confused with what you may see as a
different reality.
>> but I'm at a loss
>> to help you in finding an amicable solution to this
>> endless, and progressive, problem.
>
> Boy, that's helpful.
Why thank you, Bill - this is the nicest thing you've said to
me in this message...
I'm open for ideas - but leave the flames at the door...
Thank you...
Regards,
:+> Andy <+:
== A greeting from the gang at codyspc! ===
|\m/| We have never met a cat that |\m/|
(@ @) doesn't say "Meow!" ( - +)
==+============================+==
jdag...@gate.net
On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 23:52:55 -0800, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
The problem is that 99% of all CB operators only know how th eturn the
radio on and off. Leaving them to decide if the transceiver is
overmodulating without proper monitoring equipment is like playing
Russian roulette with 6 bullets in the chamber. Then the whole damn
band sounds as bad as heavy metal music.
Regards
James
>Mogath1 wrote:
>>
>> What happens when TR-32 (Modulation Limiter?) is cut? Does this make it a
>> splash machine? Is that ALL that's involved in turning up the modulation in one
>> of these? I don't wanna splash adjacent channels with bleedover. If anyone out
>> there can guide me in this I'd appreciate it. Thanks
>
> No, removing TR32 doesn't automatically make the radio
> bleed over. The idea behind removing the modulation
> limiter is that it takes control of the modulation
> percentage away from the government and gives it back
> to you--the actual user. From then on it's up to you
> to take charge of it. What that means is that YOU have
> to concern yourself with how high you run the mic gain
> on YOUR radio. If YOU are receiving complaints about
> bleedover, YOU, as a reasonable radio operator, should
> turn the mic gain down--that's all there is to it. In
> other words, if you take it easy on the mic gain, your
> radio will sound no different that the same radio with
> it's modulation limiter intact. Removing the limiter
> does nothing other than put YOU in control. Are YOU
> a responsible radio operator? If so, YOU deserve control
> over YOUR modulation percentage.
>
Al Trainer
modulation is very easy to control with the use of an amplified
microphone with gain control.
Bleed over and over modulation is in the hands of the user or abuser.
AL
Bill Eitner
Andrew Cody wrote:
>
> Greetings!
>
> Bill Eitner wrote in message <34DBB0...@earthlink.net>...
> >Andrew Cody wrote:
> >>
> >> Greetings!
> >>
> >> tn...@muck.net wrote in message <34dae59...@news.tir.com>...
> >>
> >> [<<<<SNIP>>>>]
> >> >When are you, the purest of idiots gonna get the message?
> >> >It is my radio your working on when you clip the limiters. I did
> >> >not consent for you to trash the recieve on my radio.
> >
> > Well, it's too bad you're not the king of the
> > world--then you could control what others do.
>
> This is something between you and the sender of the
> message I replied to - yes, I do agree it was rather
> strong worded - but...
>
> >> 1] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you now want it
> >> "peaked and tweaked" - I have a problem with this statement.
> >> -Why, "peak and tweak"? Doesn't the radio perform to your >>needs?
> >
> > Obviously not.
> >
> >> -If it doesn't work like you want it to - get one that will.
> >
> > What if NO stock radio performs to ones needs?
>
> ROTFL!
>
> Then the "operator" is asking for more - so supply some
> accessories to the package, and you have a deal!
What does "accessories" mean in a CB context?
A power mic, a tune-up, an amp?
A tune-up is an accessory in my opinion. I define
it as a service (rather than a device) that must be
purchased, and will add value to the radio when sold.
====Poor analogy deleted.==============
> There are other radios that perform
> quite nicely with only a simple addition of a power mike,
> and I'm saying - straight out of the box - but they're not
> cheap.
In your opinion.
In my opinion, the TX performance of ANY CB radio
can be improved with a proper tune-up to the point
where the TX range will be greater than that of the
same radio in stock tune with a power mic. That's
what a tune-up is; that's what the customer is paying
for; and that's what the professional who's doing
the work is guaranteeing (if he's honest).
> >> 2] You paid good money to buy a radio - and you don't want
> >> people to mess with it.
> >
> > Then don't bring it to a shop talking like you
> > want the performance increased.
>
> Hmm. A good "politically correct" statement - so a "newbie"
> to See-Bee is supposed to say "I want L2 tuned to the right
> voltage level at TP2. And NO! It's not 1.9 volts - IT'S 2.0 -
> got it? [Tech nodding in agreement...]"
No. If he doesn't want it messed with, he's not
supposed to say anything at all. In other words,
he's supposed to be satisfied with it as-is.
> AW come off it Bill - performance is a grey issue - the newbie
> needs some instruction from their "elmer" - and it's usually
> the Tech themselves that have to help them understand what
> they are really asking them to do...
This is true. I can only speak for myself,
but I always lay the pros and cons of a tune-up
out for the customer. Most of them have already
figured out whether they want to do it or not
by talking to other CBers. Generally, they
already know the pros, it's the cons that I
have to explain so they'll have a balanced
picture of what they're getting themselves
into. Many times I've talked customers out
of having a tune-up done. You know the scenarios
that dictate running only a stock radio as well as
I do. They usually center around tight-quartered
base operation.
I'm getting the feeling that you think all techs
that are willing to do tune-ups are morally barren
individuals that are driven by simple greed.
If so, you're mistaken.
=============glop deleted=============
> >> If you "peak and tweak" by yourself - it's your responsibility.
> >
> > Yet the job you do is likely to be inferior to
> > what can be done professionally.
>
> "Professionally" - by what definition?
Defined as done by those who charge for a service
and are responsible for their work.
> I'm thinking that the
> people that made the radio that's being prepared for surgey
> ought to be consulted - or is that, insulted...? ;-)
Why? What do they care? If it wasn't forced on
them by type-acceptance regulations, there would
be no modulation limiters in CB radios.
> >> If you let someone else "peak and tweak" your radio - it's
> >> still your responsibility
> >
> > To a certain degree.
>
> Hmm... as far as I can tell - the owner is still responsible for
> what that radio may, or may not, do - directly, or indirectly.
Again, to a certain degree.
This is the area where lawyers dwell. I don't feel
either of us is qualified to make concrete statements
here. You have your opinion; I have mine.
> After all - when it leaves the tech shop - the newbie sets up the
> station - presto! - the room fills with magic smoke - you want
> the - now gasping - newbie to blame the tech, right?
I love your pointed little scenarios.
In this case, first we figure out WHY the room filled
with smoke, THEN we assign responsibility.
=================glop deleted=============
> >> only now, you don't have any
> >> control over what the "tech" does to the radio
> >
> > That's not true.
>
> See above - how many techs are going to spill their guts and
> show how the radio is converted from the 4 popper to a full
> fledged V8 without headers - hmm, sounds kinda' foolish.
I do tune-ups while the customer watches and asks
questions. I tell the customer exactly what I'm
doing and why. I don't see it as foolish in the
least. In fact, it's that kind of complete honesty
that my business and my customer-base is built on.
==========more glop deleted=============
> >> in their
> >> eyes - you want "BIGGER is BETTER" and they will
> >> accomodate those that want this...and you pay for their
> >> abuse - if that is the word for it.
> >
> > They will do what you want them to do.
> >
> > Do you know what you want?
>
> Yes, all I ask for, is to make sure it works - and if it doesn't,
> I won't pay
No problem.
> However Bill, this realm is from my own personal
> opinion - do not get it confused with what you may see as a
> different reality.
OK.
> >> but I'm at a loss
> >> to help you in finding an amicable solution to this
> >> endless, and progressive, problem.
> >
> > Boy, that's helpful.
>
> Why thank you, Bill - this is the nicest thing you've said to
> me in this message...
Nice of you to take it that way.
Bill Eitner
jdag...@gate.net wrote:
>
> On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 23:52:55 -0800, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> The problem is that 99% of all CB operators only know how th eturn the
> radio on and off. Leaving them to decide if the transceiver is
> overmodulating without proper monitoring equipment is like playing
> Russian roulette with 6 bullets in the chamber. Then the whole damn
> band sounds as bad as heavy metal music.
>
> Regards
> James
to educate the customer. The other, more educated CBers can
help too. Whenever I hear a station that's in bad shape, I
try to steer the operator in the right direction. Most are
willing to accept the suggestions of a more seasoned operator.
When it comes to overmodulation, it's a simple matter. Having
the offending operator find the mic gain knob and back it off
is fairly simple. Once they understand that at a certain point
more mic gain doesn't make them louder--it just adds distortion
that actually makes it harder for others to understand them,
they'll usually get the picture and try to keep it under control
from then on.
> >Mogath1 wrote:
> >>
> >> What happens when TR-32 (Modulation Limiter?) is cut? Does this make it a
> >> splash machine? Is that ALL that's involved in turning up the modulation in one
> >> of these? I don't wanna splash adjacent channels with bleedover. If anyone out
> >> there can guide me in this I'd appreciate it. Thanks
> >
> > No, removing TR32 doesn't automatically make the radio
> > bleed over. The idea behind removing the modulation
> > limiter is that it takes control of the modulation
> > percentage away from the government and gives it back
> > to you--the actual user. From then on it's up to you
> > to take charge of it. What that means is that YOU have
> > to concern yourself with how high you run the mic gain
> > on YOUR radio. If YOU are receiving complaints about
> > bleedover, YOU, as a reasonable radio operator, should
> > turn the mic gain down--that's all there is to it. In
> > other words, if you take it easy on the mic gain, your
> > radio will sound no different that the same radio with
> > it's modulation limiter intact. Removing the limiter
> > does nothing other than put YOU in control. Are YOU
> > a responsible radio operator? If so, YOU deserve control
> > over YOUR modulation percentage.
> >
Glenn Lee
jdag...@gate.net wrote:
>
> On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 23:52:55 -0800, Bill Eitner <kd6...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> The problem is that 99% of all CB operators only know how th eturn the
> radio on and off. Leaving them to decide if the transceiver is
> overmodulating without proper monitoring equipment is like playing
> Russian roulette with 6 bullets in the chamber. Then the whole damn
> band sounds as bad as heavy metal music.
>
> Regards
> James
>
> > III
> > _________III_________
Andrew Cody
Greetings!
Bill Eitner wrote in message <34DF7E...@earthlink.net>...
[We'll cut out the mushy parts and get to the chase...]
>> Then the "operator" is asking for more - so supply some
>> accessories to the package, and you have a deal!
>
> What does "accessories" mean in a CB context?
>
> A power mic, a tune-up, an amp?
>
> A tune-up is an accessory in my opinion. I define
> it as a service (rather than a device) that must be
> purchased, and will add value to the radio when sold.
Good point here Bill. It pertains to a "value added" package.
What I see when I walk in and make a sale, is to have a
radio that both works and is worth the money I paid for
it. If I have to spend extra $$$ because of some "problem"
the radio tends to need "extra" support for it - I look for
another radio.
When I buy the radio - I want to know what else I get for
this deal. Because of the way radios are sold these days,
it's ludicrous to think that you can "get a deal" - without
having the extra $$$ to spend on the "tune-up" that the
factory really should have done. This bothers me. Some
of the shops around here - it's "tacked-on" and you have to
ask for them NOT to tune-up.
No, it's not a flame - only poor quality control - I do understand
the view you're making. Thats why my view falls on the adage
of support those that support the customer. This is why I say
that if the radio doesn't perform - get one that does.
If they [factory] had done their job right - you, as well as
thousands of other Techs, would not be needed. But this
isn't the case - and reality dictates the market.
The thing that bothers me, is for the store to charge you
extra for them to verify that it "powers-up" and works.
With policies at the shops around here - even dust bunnies
can be considered a "warranty/guarantee" violation.
We now have the problem of satisfying the customer
to a point that both you and Carl point out very well...
"Run with the Big Dogs - or stay on the porch..."
[Ruff, Ruff...]
Which brings up those accessories - the Tune-up, the
Battery Muncher [Amp] and [GULP] the infamous
Power Mike - that you have to "offer" as an extra
thing or two to "help" the newbie.
It's the "Why?" I have to have this to begin with. I feel
that it would be in my best interests to buy a radio that
works better - with fewer accessories.
I'd rather support the companies that make equipment
that doesn't have to use stuff like this. I can decide to
slap on a simple power mike and be done with it, or
a simple tune-up to help with the ALC/AMC for a stock
mike - at a later time.
[I'm a Uniden Fan for many reasons, the above is one..]
[The chase continues...]
> In my opinion, the TX performance of ANY CB radio
> can be improved with a proper tune-up to the point
> where the TX range will be greater than that of the
> same radio in stock tune with a power mic. That's
> what a tune-up is; that's what the customer is paying
> for; and that's what the professional who's doing
> the work is guaranteeing (if he's honest).
Agreed.
However, it's the parts in the parentheses that makes those
people a rare find. You'll find out why - later in this message.
The problem though - is from how the customer may
or may not see the responsibility of this - a "bad" tech
will simply "clip" here and turn a little there and slap
the cover back on and say "here you go! That'll be $35,
please - in cash...".
Does the customer really know what they're getting into?
Thats why I defend the statement that the Customer is
responsible for what happens. If the radio "blows-up" from
the "bad" techs mod - the owner is still responsible from
the damages caused by the "bad" tech.
It's in the owners manual - just send it to them for repair. I
can't get a free repair if someone else "clips" here or there.
Even if the radio performs well, but causes TVI - could
this problem have been prevented had the tech understood,
or even bothered to tell the customer - that this will happen?
Not a lot of companies will offer "free repair" after someone
else has "tried".
In my definition - the "bad" tech simply performs the work,
and will have nothing to do with what happens later with
the radio or the customer.
The schooling comes from the Tech to the customer, and
the customer interacts - it's this interaction that is crucial
to the sale and the understanding of the issues of the "Tune-
up" does and when problems do arise - the tech does stand
behind the work - and corrects it.
[Thanks for Carlifying, er - clarifying, your stand on this...]
[Turning the corner...]
> No. If he doesn't want it messed with, he's not
> supposed to say anything at all. In other words,
> he's supposed to be satisfied with it as-is.
Ok, there is another grind for someones axe - the're
always will be the old "Radio-check" problem and
"not getting across the street" with the radio.
We also have the "bait" technique - "oh, it's a little low
in the wattage - how about we tune it up for you?" trick
using a meter known to the tech - to be off - but the
customer doesn't have to know this - they usually say,
"Be my guest..." - and after the dancing silverware finally
finds it's resting place - a couple of parts are in a scrap
bin and the screws are being applied - to the radio and
the customer.
If the world was equal - there would be no war. But,
even in this case it's not. I would, and have always,
appreciated the clerks [sale] attempts to sway
my opinion - and lots of times it's some very valid
experience with the radio in question. I may be
cheap, but not easy...
The rest, emphasis on honesty, is stated above.
> This is true. I can only speak for myself,
> but I always lay the pros and cons of a tune-up
> out for the customer. Most of them have already
> figured out whether they want to do it or not
> by talking to other CBers. Generally, they
> already know the pros, it's the cons that I
> have to explain so they'll have a balanced
> picture of what they're getting themselves
> into. Many times I've talked customers out
> of having a tune-up done. You know the scenarios
> that dictate running only a stock radio as well as
> I do. They usually center around tight-quartered
> base operation.
Agreed.
> I'm getting the feeling that you think all techs
> that are willing to do tune-ups are morally barren
> individuals that are driven by simple greed.
> If so, you're mistaken.
[Please continue to read - I invite you to find the answers...]
It was only evident from the replies that I really had made
to the original statement that "tmon" had made about
"purity". If you want "purity" and "peak and tweak",
we both know that it is a contradiction in terms. A
re-alignment may look good - but what do we know?
Why does this have to be done? Is the factory that
stupid - boy, I gotta' get some answers!
The owner of the radio, and the tech that is doing the
work - have to understand each other - you did a good
job of that in the above.
Unfortunately - the tech and the customer are more like
"two ships passing in the night" and they'll be lucky if
they remember each others faces. It's the "hit-and-run"
types that are hard to sort out - unless you maintained a
contact - and that is the customers responsiblity too - they
have to know where to take it when it needs service.
I've seen "fly-by-night" shops [not just CB], that have taken
customers for a ride of their lives.
>> I'm thinking that the
>> people that made the radio that's being prepared for surgey
>> ought to be consulted - or is that, insulted...? ;-)
>
> Why? What do they care? If it wasn't forced on
> them by type-acceptance regulations, there would
> be no modulation limiters in CB radios.
Ok, as a tech, would you like to be a part of the "team"
effort that a responsible company does? I know that due
to FCC regulations in the CB band - this may seem stupid,
but if I took the time to make something - and found out
people had to tear it apart to make it work right, I'd like
to know [not the fact that it was torn apart - but why].
It's feedback...
E.G. - Modulation, can a limiter be re-designed? I think
so, but because of price - the market dictates in the other
direction. The companies, I feel, would benefit from the
tech support staff out in the real world - had they [techs]
gone back to the company and voiced their opinions about
how to make something better. Once your job was done,
it's up to the company on what to do with the idea.
Of course, I look at quality - and to me it's an important issue.
[Some people won't - so the market favors these as customers]
A better modulation proccessing scheme to help reduce
the problems that arise from "slice and dice - shops" doing
a simple limiter mod - to a more efficient form of modulation
thats' cleaner and gets through the noise generated by others
that simply don't care.
Well - I stand with those that want better modulation, and
I do care about it.
[Ok Bill, you can get back up after laughing yourself onto the
floor now...;-]
No, seriously - I think it would be in everyones best interests
had someone stopped and asked for a change in a design -
versus - pulling out key components and parts in a circuit
until you find youself with the most basic of amplifier circuits
that have little to offer in quality and durability.
I'm neither for, nor against - legislation that keeps TVI
and RFI problems down - to me it's a fact of life. I know
where I stand - and unless companies do a better job of
improving the quality of products they produce - it's only
going to get worse.
I would rather promote a company that is willing to take
responsiblity, that "bad" techs can destroy, of a reputation
of a radio that is better designed for performance "grey
issue". And the company that takes steps to provide the
customers with good support also lessens the likelyhood
that "bad" techs can ruin it.
> This is the area where lawyers dwell. I don't feel
> either of us is qualified to make concrete statements
> here. You have your opinion; I have mine.
[Sigh] I have to agree with you here.
>> After all - when it leaves the tech shop - the newbie sets up the
>> station - presto! - the room fills with magic smoke - you want
>> the - now gasping - newbie to blame the tech, right?
>
> I love your pointed little scenarios.
>
> In this case, first we figure out WHY the room filled
> with smoke, THEN we assign responsibility.
The scenarios are to point out some extremes...
Ahh! Here's the fun part - who points at who? Naturally,
"damage control" efforts kick in, and we see "flames"
shooting back and forth. This realm I've had to deal with
personally, and has left a bad taste in my mouth from
personal experiences with "bad" techs that were referred
by "dB'ers" - later found out to be some of many that "don't
care".
Greed? Perhaps - kinda' stong worded - but when there are
people that are willing to make "A fool and his money are
soon parted" so true - fool me once - shame on them, fool
me twice - shame on me.
I'm not out here to be the good guy, or bad guy - just a
guy with some experiences that I hope others can be
spared from having it happen to them and then [Yikes!]
share it with the rest of us.
The customer also has to learn the ropes in dealing with
CB radios - and why it's very important to have support,
let alone the tools - that are necessary to keep the customers
mind at ease. I would be kinder towards a tech that is
willing to help them [customers] learn more. With that, being
a CB'er, is just part of the fun.
> I do tune-ups while the customer watches and asks
> questions. I tell the customer exactly what I'm
> doing and why. I don't see it as foolish in the
> least. In fact, it's that kind of complete honesty
> that my business and my customer-base is built on.
Please understand Bill, that what you do, and what is
also said - are held up in customers minds as to how
things you do, is not always the case with other shops.
Many shops here locally, due to the liability from problems
they've had in the past with customers - a lot of them are
referrals using a "buddy" system. I go to the shop,
I say, "Can I have the transmit improved?" They
say "Sure! We'll work on it for you." and the radio
dissappears under the counter and I get a slip - the
clerk then says "next please".
Well, the radio goes to a friends house, then it's looked
at, then goes to the friends tech, then is returned, about
3 days later - I get a call and retrieve the radio and I'm
out a little cash - I take it home, install it and the TX
isn't what I wanted in power - well, I'm stuck - I lost
money.
The signs at the shop says - "All Sales Final - Repairs
and Out-of-Warranty Service - as-is." I thought I was getting
warranty serivce.
Here's the grind - I didn't tell them I wanted more power,
only improved transmit - so obviously it was simply
looked over - some coils were turned and the radio was
returned to me - I didn't see what happened to the radio,
only that the marginal improvement is what I paid for.
The clerk assumed something - I assumed something
else - there was no "feedback". No clarification of,
Modulation or Power, or both. So, with my ignorance,
and compounded by the clerks "willingness to do
business" - there is a problem here. I can't trust all
the people all the time, either.
How I found out about how the radio was really worked on.
[The FCC "bust" that Mr. Peng was in - was originated
from Michigan - there were some smaller "sweeps" a few
years ago - from linears to export equipment - the gauntlet -
along with a "little black book", confiscated.]
[I don't need to say any more, the rest of you are able to see it.
I knew about Seans' post - only the later "date" that originally
filed - was what caught me. I thought they had already gone
through it.]
The "process" these shops' were doing - at the time,
was like a technicial lottery pool, or group, and
whomever that wasn't working on something for one
of the other shops [we had 4] was "contracted" to
work on these radios. The problem is, this type of tech
selection - I had no choice, neither did a lot of others,
and no one "signed" their work. [Flat fees in cash]
This type of conduct problably goes on elsewhere - and
I would expect to find it still going on today. This tends to
put the "blame" idea you have, right out the window - these
unbeliveable, "backyard mechanics" were getting away
with murder - literally.
What made it such a slick operation - was the liability
for the repair was left with the shop - some help that was
when you see "As-Is" all over the counter. I had no
recourse - except to pay, in cash. No recipt from the
"tech" that did this either - protection again! If I didn't
pay, I lose even more from the investment I made. The
Shop simply "rolled-it over to a re-pack, refurbish, used
radio [let's wait a year] for someone else to buy."
This process was shut down when the FCC did a sweep
locally, and forced, through fines - a lot of crooked shop
dealers that DID know better, and didn't care - to shut down.
The IRS was called in to investigate these matters too - so I
do believe the FCC felt they had a strong case. This is a
simple example of poor planning - someone said a little
too much over their beer and microphone one night - and
that all that it took for the FCC to take the hint.
We still have some of the small "fry" that was spared the
hit back then, that are reaching fruition now. Around here,
old habits die hard...
The lessons I've learned - are just typing out as I go. I'm
trying to make a dent into some of those mis-conceptions...
[I can't believe that this wasn't going on elsewhere...it's too
easy...]
I hope this helps explain the view, and perhaps some of
the confusion that goes with it, to you and others that
understand what's being said here.
If you want to have others see what you do, and let
them watch as you talk it over with them - I take
my hat off and salute you.
Just be ready to accept the fate the radio will take
under the hands of the customer - if they aren't
satisfied. And why I would strongly suggest to
potential customers - that they understand the issues
of responsibility and they [customer and tech] have
defined the limits of liability to each other. [Many places
simply state "you open it, you bought it" - I can't blame
them a bit.]
As far as company representation - there's a lot more
to be said about it - and lack thereof. Yes, there is a
lot more work that has to be done - and it may truly never
get off the ground. However, if TVI/EMI problems never
get taken care of - our lack of responsiblity just cost us
a freedom, and a lot of jobs.
You do have a rare shop...I gotta' stop by sometime
and see what it's all about - not that I'm a competitor
of course...;-)
Take care Bill, I hope you can see a little deeper into the
"Mississippi mud" thats found around here...
Zow Hua Ern
Hi, may I ask why removing modulation limiter? Modulation Limiter is use
to limit the modulation so that it won't go over 100% modulation to
avoid distortion and affecting adjacent channels. If I don't remove the
limiter, then the mic gain will only use to increase mic sensitivity in
case the modulation is rather low, and I won't need to worry if any
compaints about bleedover.
Bill Eitner
Zow Hua Ern wrote:
>
> Hi, may I ask why removing modulation limiter?
Greater range and a louder sound.
> Modulation Limiter is use
> to limit the modulation so that it won't go over 100% modulation to
> avoid distortion and affecting adjacent channels. If I don't remove the
> limiter, then the mic gain will only use to increase mic sensitivity in
> case the modulation is rather low, and I won't need to worry if any
> compaints about bleedover.
All true. The problem is, people find out that with
simple modifications they can enjoy greater range and
a louder sound. Removing the modulation limiter is
just one of those mods.
--
----------------------------------------
\ /
___ | ___
A
/ | \
-=[Bill Eitner]=- III
III
III
_________III_________
Bill Eitner
This is so glop-ridden that I can't really tell what points you're
trying to make. I prefer a concise, point/counterpoint type of
discussion to what I see as the wordy yarns that you spin out here.
It's just too much like work for me to try and figure out what it
is you're trying to say. Is there any way you could re-write this
in a more concise, down-to-earth, nuts-and-bolts style? I know
you can do it because I've read posts by you that written that way.
They're few and far between, but they exist. If the answer is no,
just let it go.
73.
--
Andrew Cody
Greetings!
Bill Eitner wrote in message <34E404...@earthlink.net>...
>This is so glop-ridden that I can't really tell what points you're
>trying to make. I prefer a concise, point/counterpoint type of
>discussion to what I see as the wordy yarns that you spin out here.
>It's just too much like work for me to try and figure out what it
>is you're trying to say. Is there any way you could re-write this
>in a more concise, down-to-earth, nuts-and-bolts style? I know
>you can do it because I've read posts by you that written that way.
>They're few and far between, but they exist. If the answer is no,
>just let it go.
>
>73.
Gee, thats' too bad Bill, you made an opinionated statement....
>> > I'm getting the feeling that you think all techs
>> > that are willing to do tune-ups are morally barren
>> > individuals that are driven by simple greed.
>> > If so, you're mistaken.
And I answered that - with a lot of different examples.
But, the answer from you about limiters - didn't answer
the question about "Why you have to do this." You say
reality - thats fine, but are you "informing them" that you,
yourself - are violating the Warranty? The Customer
needs to know this. I already know how you feel about the
limiter and it's role in all of this. You presented a
strong case for yourself - but did not cover all the bases.
Does the customer know? If they don't care - thats one issue,
if you tell them "I can make that radio talk" and clip the diode,
thats' another. If the customer consents - they've lost the Warranty,
and now the repairs are your responsibility - do you want that?
[Of course - but do you want to take the liability for the owners
ignorance? I think not. But, until they get the hint - it's easy
money for you...]
What choices do you give them? I look for the radio that works
well enough that you don't have to offer accessories to accomplish
the same thing. And if I do decide - I don't want it shoved down my
throat, it's a sale for later - after I decide, not before.
I just don't feel that it's "right" for a CB shop to take
a radio - throw it on the bench and prove that it works
in front of the customer - and charge extra $$$ to do it.
Why do this? The Warranty is supposed to back you
and the customer up.
And you couldn't believe that "Techs" should be
considered "honest" - this is true for some, maybe
more than that - but my experiences tell a story - you
can read about it - and how Mr. Peng - after being
tried for IRS fraud - was excused from prosecution
from the FCC - Habeas Corpus - you can't try the
same person on the same crime - once they've proven
their "innocence". A lot of Techs paid a price for the
"cash coffers" they were making - tax free.
It's too bad that we should pay attention to you, but
you can't pay attention to us...whats' fair Bill? You
wanted to reply before - and now you say "glop".
Hmm...
Gosh Bill, did I actually make you at a loss for words?
WOW!
Bill Eitner
Andrew Cody wrote:
>
> Greetings!
>
> Bill Eitner wrote in message <34E404...@earthlink.net>...
>
> >This is so glop-ridden that I can't really tell what points you're
> >trying to make. I prefer a concise, point/counterpoint type of
> >discussion to what I see as the wordy yarns that you spin out here.
> >It's just too much like work for me to try and figure out what it
> >is you're trying to say. Is there any way you could re-write this
> >in a more concise, down-to-earth, nuts-and-bolts style? I know
> >you can do it because I've read posts by you that written that way.
> >They're few and far between, but they exist. If the answer is no,
> >just let it go.
> >
> >73.
>
>
> >> > that are willing to do tune-ups are morally barren
> >> > individuals that are driven by simple greed.
> >> > If so, you're mistaken.
>
"bad" tech there's an honest tech? Or is it
simply your belief, based on your personal
experiences, that virtually all techs that do
tune-ups are "bad" techs. That's the impression
I get when I read your posts to any thread that
concerns TX mods. I simply disagree with that
impression.
As for your examples; they were too convoluted
and philosophic for me to understand. Lay it
out in black and white. Who did what exactly,
and who was vicimized. If so many people were
doing so much CB evil, then why aren't there
more posts to this newsgroup telling everyone
to avoid all these evil-doers that include
real-life horror stories? I just don't see it
the way you see it. That's why I don't follow
your company line that only factory-new Unidens
are any good, and that the addition of a power
mic is the only thing one might ever want to do
to it.
> But, the answer from you about limiters - didn't answer
> the question about "Why you have to do this."
No one "has" to do it... It's something one
choses to do. Why one choses to do it and
what they should expect was clearly explained.
> You say
> reality - thats fine,
Where did I say "reality" is the reason for
removing limiters? This is a prime example of
glop. Using philosophy to confuse a scientific
issue--that's glop.
> but are you "informing them" that you,
> yourself - are violating the Warranty?
Yes. I clearly explained all of that.
> The Customer
> needs to know this. I already know how you feel about the
> limiter and it's role in all of this. You presented a
> strong case for yourself - but did not cover all the bases.
List the bases that you felt were left uncovered
and I'll respond to every one of them.
> Does the customer know? If they don't care - thats one issue,
> if you tell them "I can make that radio talk" and clip the diode,
> thats' another. If the customer consents - they've lost the Warranty,
> and now the repairs are your responsibility - do you want that?
Speaking for myself, yes--the customer knows that the
warranty is voided when modifications are made.
You've got the warranty part mixed up. When the
customer consents to a tune-up, he gives up the
free repairs that the warranty provides--that's all.
The warranty responsibility does not shift from the
factory to me--it simply disappears. It's like cutting
the seal on the radios that come sealed; taking this
action, be it cutting the seal or a diode, voids any
warranty. The customer knows that going in. It's
especially obvious on sealed radios. Perhaps all radios
should come with tamper seals. Would that be a step in
the right direction as far as you're concerned. It
certainly makes it very clear to customer that he's
making an importand decision when he says: "yes--cut
that seal and proceed."
> [Of course - but do you want to take the liability for the owners
> ignorance? I think not. But, until they get the hint - it's easy
> money for you...]
Here, you're jumping to a conclusion. What ignorance?
What don't they know? Furthermore, do you feel that
I'm deceiving people in order to get my hands on all
that "easy" money?
> What choices do you give them?
That depends on what they're doing with the radio,
and what they want out of CB radio in general. Not
every customer gets a tune-up shoved down their
throat. Is that what you're getting at?
> I look for the radio that works
> well enough that you don't have to offer accessories to accomplish
> the same thing.
I don't understand. CB has legal limitations that
can't be overcome by simply buying a different model.
You'll have to elaborate here. I regularly make the
suggestion to different customers that they consider
radio services other than CB when it's obvious that
the CB service won't suit their needs. Is that what
you mean by giving them "choices?"
> And if I do decide - I don't want it shoved down my
> throat, it's a sale for later - after I decide, not before.
That's fine with me. Where do you get the impression
that everyone pre-tunes radios and then forces it on
the customer? For example, other than a few used ones
that I find here and there and repair, I don't sell
radios at all. Every tune-up that I do is on a radio
that was purchased elsewhere. No one forces pre-tuned
radios on anyone around here.
> I just don't feel that it's "right" for a CB shop to take
> a radio - throw it on the bench and prove that it works
> in front of the customer - and charge extra $$$ to do it.
No one around here would pay a shop to put a new
radio on the bench and simply prove that it works.
That's ridiculous. I can't imagine anyone paying
for that anywhere. I suggest that any customer
that's faced with that should simply buy their radio
elsewhere.
> Why do this? The Warranty is supposed to back you
> and the customer up.
I agree.
I don't see a problem with offering to test a
radio that's never been out of the box free of
charge for a customer. If it's a dud, you've
saved the customer some time.
> And you couldn't believe that "Techs" should be
> considered "honest"
Re-read what you just wrote. I DO believe
that techs should be considered honest.
It's YOU that believes otherwise.
> - this is true for some, maybe
> more than that
Many more than that. Money in the trenches
of the CB industry just doesn't come that
easily. In other words, you don't last long
fucking-over customers. And even if they
were naive, ignorant, or gullible at first,
they learn as time goes by. And as they
learn, they figure out who was truthful
and helpful, and who was just in it for
the money. The shops and individuals that
are just in it for the money disappear in
time because they can't develop and hold
onto a customer base.
> - but my experiences tell a story
Like I said, the way you wrote of your
experiences was unclear to me.
> - you
> can read about it - and how Mr. Peng - after being
> tried for IRS fraud - was excused from prosecution
> from the FCC - Habeas Corpus - you can't try the
> same person on the same crime - once they've proven
> their "innocence".
He's not a tech doing tune-ups.
That's a good story that has the makings of
another thread. If you know of a source for
details on that story--let me know.
> A lot of Techs paid a price for the
> "cash coffers" they were making - tax free.
Tune-ups are illegal--there's no doubt about
that. However, I think you're confusing
radio sales with modification work. What
slimy people are getting away with when it
comes to importing and selling illegal
equipment is off-topic right now.
> It's too bad that we should pay attention to you, but
> you can't pay attention to us...whats' fair Bill? You
> wanted to reply before - and now you say "glop".
What does that mean? To me what you just wrote
is nothing but vague, philisophical nonsense (glop).
> Hmm...
What is "hmm?" Is your glop intended to promote
thought? All it really does is confuse the issue.
> Gosh Bill, did I actually make you at a loss for words?
No--you just burried me in glop.
I should know better. When you pull out the glop
I know I'm not going to get anywhere with you.
73
Mogath1
Ya know, when I ORIGINALY ASKED this question, I honestly wanted to know how to
make the modulation spank a litle more in the radio. I didn't want and don't
care about the rights and wrongs of it. I didn't and don't care about any
warranty voids once the radio was opened. I thought that ANYONE WITH A BRAIN
would know that once you opened the radio, the warranty was void!! Go figure.
ANYWAY, my question was answered LONG AGO and I already thanked the gentleman
for his answer. All this other bullshit is irrelevant!
>Gee, thats' too bad Bill, you made an opinionated statement....
>
>>> > I'm getting the feeling that you think all techs
>>> > that are willing to do tune-ups are morally barren
>>> > individuals that are driven by simple greed.
>>> > If so, you're mistaken.
>
>And I answered that - with a lot of different examples.
>
>But, the answer from you about limiters - didn't answer=20
>the question about "Why you have to do this." You say
>reality - thats fine, but are you "informing them" that you,=20
>yourself - are violating the Warranty? The Customer
>needs to know this. I already know how you feel about the
>limiter and it's role in all of this. You presented a=20
>strong case for yourself - but did not cover all the bases.
>
>Does the customer know? If they don't care - thats one issue,
>if you tell them "I can make that radio talk" and clip the diode,
>thats' another. If the customer consents - they've lost the Warranty,
>and now the repairs are your responsibility - do you want that?
>
>[Of course - but do you want to take the liability for the owners
>ignorance? I think not. But, until they get the hint - it's easy=20
>money for you...]
>
>What choices do you give them? I look for the radio that works=20
>well enough that you don't have to offer accessories to accomplish=20
>the same thing. And if I do decide - I don't want it shoved down my
>throat, it's a sale for later - after I decide, not before.
>
>I just don't feel that it's "right" for a CB shop to take=20
>a radio - throw it on the bench and prove that it works
>in front of the customer - and charge extra $$$ to do it.
>
>Why do this? The Warranty is supposed to back you=20
>and the customer up.
>
>And you couldn't believe that "Techs" should be=20
>considered "honest" - this is true for some, maybe
>more than that - but my experiences tell a story - you
>can read about it - and how Mr. Peng - after being=20
>tried for IRS fraud - was excused from prosecution=20
>from the FCC - Habeas Corpus - you can't try the=20
>same person on the same crime - once they've proven
>their "innocence". A lot of Techs paid a price for the=20
>"cash coffers" they were making - tax free.
>
>It's too bad that we should pay attention to you, but
>you can't pay attention to us...whats' fair Bill? You
>wanted to reply before - and now you say "glop".
>
>Hmm...
>
>Gosh Bill, did I actually make you at a loss for words?
>
>WOW!
>
>
Andrew Cody
Greetings!
Bill Eitner wrote in message <34E4D3...@earthlink.net>...
>Andrew Cody wrote:
>>
>> Greetings!
>>
>> Bill Eitner wrote in message <34E404...@earthlink.net>...
>>
>> >This is so glop-ridden that I can't really tell what points you're
> OK. Can you disprove the statement: for every
> "bad" tech there's an honest tech? Or is it
> simply your belief, based on your personal
> experiences, that virtually all techs that do
> tune-ups are "bad" techs. That's the impression
> I get when I read your posts to any thread that
> concerns TX mods. I simply disagree with that
> impression.
Well, your comment regarding my statements to someone elses
post - is what started all of this - and to he honest, the subject
was not directed at you in particular. Although you replied, I
perceived it in the fashion that you did not want to be lumped
into my idea of "bad tech" threads - this wasn't the case in the
first place.
I was simply stating that no matter what the person does with
the radio - either by giving it to you, or doing it themselves - the
tune-up, they are "in charge" and responsible for whatever is
done that can cause problems while they try to use it.
The liability - or in this case, the "blame" was not directed at
you - only you were pointing something at me - that really
should have gone to someone else. [The King phrase was
quoted by me originally] - and I though I had established the
direction of the message to those that feel modifications by
themselves - or for that matter - anyone, you can't get something
for nothing - and that means a tune-up will get things with the
radio - to points that you and I already know - TVI, Bleedover,
and Chaos from operating the radio.
> As for your examples; they were too convoluted
> and philosophic for me to understand. Lay it
> out in black and white. Who did what exactly,
> and who was vicimized. If so many people were
> doing so much CB evil, then why aren't there
> more posts to this newsgroup telling everyone
> to avoid all these evil-doers that include
> real-life horror stories? I just don't see it
> the way you see it. That's why I don't follow
> your company line that only factory-new Unidens
> are any good, and that the addition of a power
> mic is the only thing one might ever want to do
> to it.
These "issues" were handled a long time ago - back in
1991 - 1994, a lot of things happened over here in Michigan.
The IRS, as well as the FCC, went in a looked at the "books"
and the "recipts" and did some "busting" - this is what got
a lot of people on this NG wondering about the recent
FCC development and charges being placed on certain
people and companies. This was in response to the probe
that uncovered a lot a garbage and laundering that was
going on here locally. I just happen to know some of
the many "customers" and, unfortunately - the dealers.
Uniden, to me, has shown more faith in their radios - than
Cobra, Midland, or Maxxon - no flame intended - it's just
that Uniden has proved to be some of the best equipment
made in the CB market - I can attest to that. Buying a CB
from a Brand Name in the Market - that has a good reputation
of taking some abuse, or used with simpler accessories - like
the power mike, have performed quite well without needing
and extra assistance from either the "tech" or the "extras"
that can be "used" - but have questionable intent...;-)
I was simply commenting to the fact that you, as a customer,
need to know some facts about service and "tune-ups" that
aren't always covered in the visits to the shop. I wanted to
know this - along with some other things - but right now it's
just you and me...
>> But, the answer from you about limiters - didn't answer
>> the question about "Why you have to do this."
>
> No one "has" to do it... It's something one
> choses to do. Why one choses to do it and
> what they should expect was clearly explained.
>
>> You say
>> reality - thats fine,
>
> Where did I say "reality" is the reason for
> removing limiters? This is a prime example of
> glop. Using philosophy to confuse a scientific
> issue--that's glop.
You brought up "reality" - I only defined what I perceive
it as. It's not a problem Bill, only that my "reality" is
different from yours. It's all perspective. My dealings
as a newbie, were full of frustration and wasted $$$ on
things that were promised, but never delivered.
What I built-on was from those experiences - and I
wanted to hear about others. I'm not saying what is
right and wrong - it's a personal choice - but you and
I know from the postings - "What do I do to X, to get Z?"
And we answer "Y" - sometimes as a question...;-)
>> but are you "informing them" that you,
>> yourself - are violating the Warranty?
>
> Yes. I clearly explained all of that.
>
>> The Customer
>> needs to know this. I already know how you feel about the
>> limiter and it's role in all of this. You presented a
>> strong case for yourself - but did not cover all the bases.
>
> List the bases that you felt were left uncovered
> and I'll respond to every one of them.
>
>> Does the customer know? If they don't care - thats one issue,
>> if you tell them "I can make that radio talk" and clip the diode,
>> thats' another. If the customer consents - they've lost the Warranty,
>> and now the repairs are your responsibility - do you want that?
>
> Speaking for myself, yes--the customer knows that the
> warranty is voided when modifications are made.
Great! [Nice plug Bill...] However, you are a shop that is honest.
I have yet to find one here locally that doesn't react like the R/S
employees - I don't like being read the riot act, nor do I appreciate
"blank stares" - which is what I get from the only places around
here still left after the FCC was done with them. I want answers,
just like you do. You give answers - I have yet to find someone
locally that can be as honest with me, as you are.
> You've got the warranty part mixed up. When the
> customer consents to a tune-up, he gives up the
> free repairs that the warranty provides--that's all.
> The warranty responsibility does not shift from the
> factory to me--it simply disappears. It's like cutting
> the seal on the radios that come sealed; taking this
> action, be it cutting the seal or a diode, voids any
> warranty. The customer knows that going in. It's
> especially obvious on sealed radios. Perhaps all radios
> should come with tamper seals. Would that be a step in
> the right direction as far as you're concerned. It
> certainly makes it very clear to customer that he's
> making an importand decision when he says: "yes--cut
> that seal and proceed."
This is what I wanted to know from others - it simply
wasn't explained to me on my first trip out to the CB
palace - and in return, I got stung by "not knowing"
what was done to the radio I just bought.
This idea of sealing - as far as warranty issues - is something
that is not always covered by the shop. An experienced
customer would understand this when it came to service.
A newbie - may be mis-led by others opinions - I wanted to
ask some questions regarding how much do others understand
when they read the "fine print". The factory can easily tell when
some thing's wrong - they're experienced with the typical "hot
spots" of their radios when it comes to mods.
I don't know if you caught this in a previous thread - but the
owners manual have a special, brightly colored, notice that
simply states "If you have problems and need service - Do
Not Return the Radio to the Dealer" and gives a 1-800 number.
This little flyer - is trying to tell the customer something.
If you offer to cover the warranty - that is an issue with the
customer that they're responsible for.
>> [Of course - but do you want to take the liability for the owners
>> ignorance? I think not. But, until they get the hint - it's easy
>> money for you...]
>
> Here, you're jumping to a conclusion. What ignorance?
> What don't they know? Furthermore, do you feel that
> I'm deceiving people in order to get my hands on all
> that "easy" money?
That depends Bill, a lot of people ask about "mods" and
how to do this and that - I'm not talking deception - only
the problem of interpetation. You're injecting deception
by the word "deceive" - if this is what I'm saying - I'd like
to know more of why this is interpeted like this.
Someone flamed someone other the "clipping" of a limiter
when there are other options - I was questioning that and
posting some questions regading the "Why" the limiter
has to be clipped - if there are better ways - I'd like to
know about them - but I would also think that the Factory
would too.
>> What choices do you give them?
>
> That depends on what they're doing with the radio,
> and what they want out of CB radio in general. Not
> every customer gets a tune-up shoved down their
> throat. Is that what you're getting at?
Yes. And this is something every customer should know.
Not a lot of shops are willing to just "sell" a radio. The
customer also gets "offers" like tune-ups and check-outs.
Some places "offer" these services - at what looks to be
a fair price - but the customer should be left to make the decision.
This doesn't always happen - at least in my case - see previous
posts for that.
>> I look for the radio that works
>> well enough that you don't have to offer accessories to accomplish
>> the same thing.
>
> I don't understand. CB has legal limitations that
> can't be overcome by simply buying a different model.
> You'll have to elaborate here. I regularly make the
> suggestion to different customers that they consider
> radio services other than CB when it's obvious that
> the CB service won't suit their needs. Is that what
> you mean by giving them "choices?"
As the original message that I replied to stated by me,
"If the radio doesn't perform to your needs - get one that does."
Butchering - as stated much earlier in the thread by someone
else - would not be the best choice. If you were in the position
that the customer asks you - "What can I get to help this
radio get out?" What would you tell them?
My appologies - I jumped the gun. I should have asked that in
the first place. This is where the "extra accessories" came into
play. The radio needs some help? A tune-up? Whats a "Tune-up?"
This is where things can go awry - and this has soaked a lot of
people here locally - when dealing with this "extra help". A simple
power microphone doesn't do the job? YIKES! The radio shouldn't
have sold to the customer - now what? A tune-up to make the radio
talk - well, I hope it's the customer that is making this decision for
you. I don't understand the "tech" or shop doing this without permission,
but this can happen - and has...[around here - we even have some TV
news broadcasts describing bleedover interference and direct video of
what was happening to a neighbor - all stemming around problems
that are associated with a "peak and tweak" and clipped limiters. And a
radio station that would pause to hear the phone - bleed - from a local
CB'er during a morning show - along with the audio of the operator describing
his [EXP!] and how well his radio is performing after being returned from his
"radio doctor" - hilarious!!! They used it as spots for promotional of the DJ's
morning show.]
>> And if I do decide - I don't want it shoved down my
>> throat, it's a sale for later - after I decide, not before.
>
> That's fine with me. Where do you get the impression
> that everyone pre-tunes radios and then forces it on
> the customer? For example, other than a few used ones
> that I find here and there and repair, I don't sell
> radios at all. Every tune-up that I do is on a radio
> that was purchased elsewhere. No one forces pre-tuned
> radios on anyone around here.
[I'm talking dealers and their "techs" - this may be part of the confusion...]
Ah, but a "check-out" might - this is where things can get a
little "picky" as someone in a previous message pointed out.
This also goes into the realm of "undoing what someone else
did - to re-create the problem - fix it, and then find out that the
customer is still unhappy - and now the tech is left with a bad
reputation for simply fixing a problem". This is a quirk with
customers that you and I have had to deal with - I work in another
realm thats not CB related. But, I do know that people do this
just so they can make a "case" for themselves - and we find
this "special case" to be a menagerie hodge-podge of different
"fingers" in the product that finally landed on the bench. It's
basic, the customer goofed-up and it's up to you to fix it - but
anything else - it's your fault. Oh the linear wars that erupt
from this...[*sigh*]...;-)
>> I just don't feel that it's "right" for a CB shop to take
>> a radio - throw it on the bench and prove that it works
>> in front of the customer - and charge extra $$$ to do it.
>
> No one around here would pay a shop to put a new
> radio on the bench and simply prove that it works.
> That's ridiculous. I can't imagine anyone paying
> for that anywhere. I suggest that any customer
> that's faced with that should simply buy their radio
> elsewhere.
Well, a certain company does...need I say more?
>> Why do this? The Warranty is supposed to back you
>> and the customer up.
>
> I agree.
>
> I don't see a problem with offering to test a
> radio that's never been out of the box free of
> charge for a customer. If it's a dud, you've
> saved the customer some time.
This is true - as long as the radio is just left by itself.
What has happened to me in two cases - are the
sudden discovery "oh, it needs a little help - can we
do that for you?" The first time I said yes, the next
time was "never again" - the previous posts did cover
a little "touchy" issue regarding "honest" test equipment.
>> And you couldn't believe that "Techs" should be
>> considered "honest"
>
> Re-read what you just wrote. I DO believe
> that techs should be considered honest.
> It's YOU that believes otherwise.
I realize now why you're replied. I was re-stating that
you feel that "techs" are honest - I'm looking further
into this - with my guard up. I can't always believe
what I am being told face-to-face by a dealer. I've got
too many "burns" that make me think otherwise.
>> - this is true for some, maybe
>> more than that
>
> Many more than that. Money in the trenches
> of the CB industry just doesn't come that
> easily. In other words, you don't last long
> fucking-over customers. And even if they
> were naive, ignorant, or gullible at first,
> they learn as time goes by. And as they
> learn, they figure out who was truthful
> and helpful, and who was just in it for
> the money. The shops and individuals that
> are just in it for the money disappear in
> time because they can't develop and hold
> onto a customer base.
>
>> - but my experiences tell a story
>
> Like I said, the way you wrote of your
> experiences was unclear to me.
Gee, Bill - I guess these messages are a waste of time - let me know...
[But, I will agree with you on the point of <exp>-over customers. I
was one of them...]
>> - you
>> can read about it - and how Mr. Peng - after being
>> tried for IRS fraud - was excused from prosecution
>> from the FCC - Habeas Corpus - you can't try the
>> same person on the same crime - once they've proven
>> their "innocence".
>
> He's not a tech doing tune-ups.
>
> That's a good story that has the makings of
> another thread. If you know of a source for
> details on that story--let me know.
This goes way back to 1994 - about Importing products
and not posting the proper value for the products for
Import tarrifs and declaration of product value for
the IRS.
The IRS was involved with the RCI, Mr. Peng - and
some others - the FCC picked up the reigns and is
posing litigation for other crimes committed - which
is why "laundering" comes up in the FCC docket, it
is in reference to what the IRS has investigated and
charged individuals that were involved.
This falls back to "techs" that were also dealing
with some questionable accessories that are known
to be illegal - this was going on around here - I am
not saying it happens everywhere - at least I hope
not - but it does pay to listen to the CB more than
to talk on it - people need to be aware, or they can
fall into a trap that can cost them a lot of $$$.
>> A lot of Techs paid a price for the
>> "cash coffers" they were making - tax free.
>
> Tune-ups are illegal--there's no doubt about
> that. However, I think you're confusing
> radio sales with modification work. What
> slimy people are getting away with when it
> comes to importing and selling illegal
> equipment is off-topic right now.
Thats' fine Bill, you did ask the question - I did answer
it - to demonstrate a point that many around here had
to learn the hard way - and that were being mis-led by
"techs" that used techniques already talked about.
> I should know better. When you pull out the glop
> I know I'm not going to get anywhere with you.
Yep, I won't argue this with you - but you did make a
fine case and example of what I think others might like
to know about.
The points made were...
"Not all Techs are considered - bad."
"Radios are not infallible."
"Not everyone sees eye-to-eye on things."
"Can we learn from others' previous mistakes?"
[This last statement is a question..for a reason.]
If anything, Bill, you have fielded the questions and statements
I've made with due process. You didn't like many of my views,
and I've clarifed them. Another aspect though, is not from you
and me - it's for others, the customers. The customer should
ask plenty of questions - and get the right answers. If they don't
find them, or trust the source - the stereotype kicks in and we
have this difference of opinion.
Truce?