watts vs swing
ICEMAN RRC
15 watts better than deadkeying 5 watts and swinging 15 watts?
I would think the higher the watts the more power you would have. Why would
you want to deadkey next to nothing and swing so much?
prozac 625
Am modulation it the difference between the peek envelope power and the
carrier power. What do you think is a greater value 15W pep - 1W carrier, or
15W pep - 5W carrier?? If you can do simple math you will see the lower
dead key gives you more modulation!! This often makes your radio some loader
to your locals but choppy in DX.
"ICEMAN RRC" <icem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991218143636...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
Tim
doesnt really do anything. the carrier should be set at 1/4 the peak output of
the radio. any lower and it sounds like crap to any radios with noise blankers
on. some people do do it for a good reason, there trying to save expensive
sweep tubes so they set the carrier at less.
>I would like to know why swing is good. Why is deadkeying 1 watt and
>swinging
>15 watts better than deadkeying 5 watts and swinging 15 watts?
>I would think the higher the watts the more power you would have. Why would
>you want to deadkey next to nothing and swing so much?
Good luck and best regards from Tim 082.
IR-DX Group http://home.wxs.nl/~19ir01
LD-DX Group http://come.to/limadelta
Kp-DX Group http://www.gate.net/~kp
Daily Updated 11 Meter DX News
http://home.t-online.de/home/IRDX.GERMany/dxnews~1.htm
Capt Coleslaw
loudness to the recieve station, I myself prefer some carrier and 25-50% of
the total output is what I use for a carrier
Tim <zeroei...@aol.come> wrote in message
news:19991218150450...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
MC 10kW Jesus
simple. Decreasing your carrier power will decrease your range - period. One thing
to keep in mind that the carrier exists to demodulate the side-bands at the
receiving end.
Why do people do it? Because it makes them sound LOUDER locally.
Many Psychological questions come to mind here.
MC
Capt Coleslaw
reduces your range. A reduction in carrier power has no bearing on total
output power Let me ask you this lets assume we have 3 of the same
amplifiers each capable of holding with audio 5oo watts rms power on am,
Amp "A" is keyed up at 200 watts of carrier and modulated to 5oo watts of
rms power, Amp "B" is keyed up at 500 watts and when modulated holds 500
watts of rms power , Next Amp "C" is keyed up at 800 watts and is modualted
back to 500 watts Which would have the greatest range or if all three keyed
up at the same time which would be heard over the other and Why?
MC 10kW Jesus <qs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Hank Aaron
(easily demonstrated on a "scope"), positive modulation peaks can and more
than likely will exceed 100% modulation without producing distortion. This
in fact increases the amplitude or power output of the CB.
Swing Kits will increase modulation......which in turn make you seem
louder.....and despite this argument of due to lower
carrier....etc....etc.... I have a question for all of you I suppose....
who the hell hears someone's carrier when talking skip?!?! Just a
question....
Take care.... Im gonna feel the love on this post..
ICEMAN RRC wrote in message
<19991218143636...@ng-ft1.aol.com>...
AB7RS
>
> 1.) I would "guess A" because it has 300 watts of positive peak modulation.
> 2.) I wouldn't "guess B" because it has no modulation :ON AMPLITUDE
> MODULATION THAT IS IT WILL BE GREAT FOR FREQUENCY OR PHASE SHIFT MODULATION.
> 3.) I wouldn't "guess C" because it has Negative Modulation.
Negative modulation???
Mr. 137
box.
But correct me if I'm wrong. Has anyone heard of the "see-saw" effect? The
more the swing, the less the modulation? The lesser the swing, the more the
modulation? Or have I been out of the loop (or totally out of it for the
past 8 years) and should be told to go sit in the corner now?
137... back out!
prozac 625 wrote in message ...
>Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
>What do you call it?
>
>"AB7RS" <tgl...@imt.net> wrote in message news:385C30...@imt.net...
MC 10kW Jesus
kits exceed the 100% modulation envelope on the upswing - this is exactly what
AM broadcasters do too. This with plenty of compression on the signal (applied
not evenly but across different parts of the audio spectrum) and the station
will sound louder. Transmit farther? I've seen no evidence of that.
Whether the the swing kits really do the same thing or not I don't know. But I
suspect users run them on radios with the modulation limiter pulled anyway and
therefore negate the whole exercise.
> Let me ask you this lets assume we have 3 of the same
> amplifiers each capable of holding with audio 5oo watts rms power on am,
> Amp "A" is keyed up at 200 watts of carrier and modulated to 5oo watts of
> rms power, Amp "B" is keyed up at 500 watts and when modulated holds 500
> watts of rms power , Next Amp "C" is keyed up at 800 watts and is modualted
> back to 500 watts Which would have the greatest range or if all three keyed
> up at the same time which would be heard over the other and Why?
So if one train leaves Chicago going west at 45MPH and the other east at
30MPH.......
I don't really understand your question but the amplifier with the greatest
carrier power is going to talk the farthest - assuming you have 100%
modulation.
If you're over modulated, which in your case you are, there is going to be a
large part of the carrier that is transmitting nothing at all. How nothing can
be more powerful than something is beyond the grasp this author. I encourage
you to run as much "mawj" as you want. I'll be the one making all the contacts
across the world, and you'll be the one making all the noise across town. :->
MC just got down
Dirk Diggler
2.) I wouldn't "guess B" because it has no modulation :ON AMPLITUDE
MODULATION THAT IS IT WILL BE GREAT FOR FREQUENCY OR PHASE SHIFT MODULATION.
3.) I wouldn't "guess C" because it has Negative Modulation.
I am not an Rf expert but this is the results of simple AM arithmetic.
"Capt Coleslaw" <867...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:RPT64.83$G31....@news2.voicenet.com...
| Sorry MC this is not the case decreasing your carrier power in no way
| reduces your range. A reduction in carrier power has no bearing on total
| output power Let me ask you this lets assume we have 3 of the same
| amplifiers each capable of holding with audio 5oo watts rms power on am,
| Amp "A" is keyed up at 200 watts of carrier and modulated to 5oo watts
of
| rms power, Amp "B" is keyed up at 500 watts and when modulated holds 500
| watts of rms power , Next Amp "C" is keyed up at 800 watts and is
modualted
| back to 500 watts Which would have the greatest range or if all three
keyed
| up at the same time which would be heard over the other and Why?
|
prozac 625
modulation>
1.) Choice "A" would have to swing to 1000 watts for 100%
2.) Choice "B" has 0%.
3.) choice "C" is keying up with 800 watts and dropping down to 500 Not
good!!
prozac 625
What do you call it?
"AB7RS" <tgl...@imt.net> wrote in message news:385C30...@imt.net...
| Dirk Diggler wrote:
| >
| > 1.) I would "guess A" because it has 300 watts of positive peak
modulation.
| > 2.) I wouldn't "guess B" because it has no modulation :ON AMPLITUDE
| > MODULATION THAT IS IT WILL BE GREAT FOR FREQUENCY OR PHASE SHIFT
MODULATION.
| > 3.) I wouldn't "guess C" because it has Negative Modulation.
|
|
| Negative modulation???
MC 10kW Jesus
even try and deduce any intelligence out of it. (Much the same as an AM receiver
can't deduce any intelligence out of a signal when there is no carrier present).
And this is/was/shall always be my point. -Swing- is a nonsense term and one
can't make any hypotheses from an equation containing nonsense. I simply refuse
to 'go there'.
Have a good evening and may Santa Claus bring you lots of toys!
MC
Sean
lower under fully modulated conditions.
Some radios can produce the same average power whether set for a 2 watt
carrier or a 5 watt carrier. Other's can't. Whichever one maintains the
highest average power and can fully modulate the envelope ( and then some )
will get out the farthest. Sean
>
Capt Coleslaw <867...@aol.com> wrote in message ...
Sean
typically show the " 4 times" ratio that is theoretically correct when
talking about peak to average ratios and 100% modulation. # 12's peak
detector works better than Birds' circuit does and it's what i use a
reference on my bench.
It was #12 that pointed out to the Bird Engineers that their circuit
suffered from compression and caused them to redesign it appr. 1 1/2 years
ago. Bird did not advertise the fact that their design was "new and
improved", as that would have been admitting that it wasn't right in the
first place. I pointed this out to Meritt, the owner of RF Parts at the
1998 Dayton Hamfest and showed him the differences between the two circuits.
Even he did not know that it had been changed. Sean
>
prozac 625 wrote in message ...
Sean
it key 2 watts and swing 40 watts on a regular Bird 43 meter. Would it be
loud ? NO. It would have 0% modulation.
Meters can be fooled. Scopes can't. Sean
>
prozac 625 wrote in message ...
Hank Aaron
MC 10kW Jesus wrote in message <385C3A0A...@hotmail.com>...
|Sorry Coleslaw, it is. Hank Aaron (didn't he play baseball???) noted that
swing
original of him huh? <g>
|kits exceed the 100% modulation envelope on the upswing - this is exactly
what
|AM broadcasters do too. This with plenty of compression on the signal
(applied
|not evenly but across different parts of the audio spectrum) and the
station
|will sound louder. Transmit farther? I've seen no evidence of that.
|
|Whether the the swing kits really do the same thing or not I don't know.
But I
|suspect users run them on radios with the modulation limiter pulled anyway
and
|therefore negate the whole exercise.
|
|> Let me ask you this lets assume we have 3 of the same
|> amplifiers each capable of holding with audio 5oo watts rms power on am,
|> Amp "A" is keyed up at 200 watts of carrier and modulated to 5oo watts
of
|> rms power, Amp "B" is keyed up at 500 watts and when modulated holds 500
|> watts of rms power , Next Amp "C" is keyed up at 800 watts and is
modualted
|> back to 500 watts Which would have the greatest range or if all three
keyed
|> up at the same time which would be heard over the other and Why?
|
|So if one train leaves Chicago going west at 45MPH and the other east at
|30MPH.......
|
am@yourhouse.com DriveByShooter
they all just had a different deadkey. Which would you assume would be the
louder of all 3 situations? Since MC ducked answering it.
Sean <bigf...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
news:vg174.381$_q2....@news.corecomm.net...
> Decreasing your carrier DOES reduce your range IF the average power is
also
> lower under fully modulated conditions.
>
> Some radios can produce the same average power whether set for a 2 watt
> carrier or a 5 watt carrier. Other's can't. Whichever one maintains the
> highest average power and can fully modulate the envelope ( and then
some )
> will get out the farthest. Sean
> >
>
> Capt Coleslaw <867...@aol.com> wrote in message ...
> Sorry MC this is not the case decreasing your carrier power in no way
> reduces your range. A reduction in carrier power has no bearing on total
> output power Let me ask you this lets assume we have 3 of the same
> amplifiers each capable of holding with audio 5oo watts rms power on am,
> Amp "A" is keyed up at 200 watts of carrier and modulated to 5oo watts
of
> rms power, Amp "B" is keyed up at 500 watts and when modulated holds 500
> watts of rms power , Next Amp "C" is keyed up at 800 watts and is
modualted
> back to 500 watts Which would have the greatest range or if all three
keyed
> up at the same time which would be heard over the other and Why?
>
Tim
>| Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
>| What do you call it?
its called backward swing. you would rarely see this on the peak meters that so
many cb'ers use. if a amp is putting out more than it should on am and isnt
left with any head room you will see it back swing. thats why so many guys
sound raspy and muffled. they may have there box on a peak meter thinking they
have all kinds of swing when in reality on a rms meter there backswinging and
sounding like shit.
prozac 625
types of meter??
"Sean" <bigf...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
news:xs174.407$_q2....@news.corecomm.net...
| I can take an AM regulated dual final radio (Galaxy, Ranger, etc ) and
have
| it key 2 watts and swing 40 watts on a regular Bird 43 meter. Would it be
| loud ? NO. It would have 0% modulation.
|
| Meters can be fooled. Scopes can't. Sean
| >
|
| prozac 625 wrote in message ...
| Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
| What do you call it?
|
Scott (Unit 69)
prozac 625 wrote:
>
> Ok Tim I see your message there is no need to send it to me via Email since
> I do allot of serious work through my Email I would be happy if I never get
> Unwanted CB Emails again..
> I Will read the messages on the board I promise.
> "Tim" <zeroei...@aol.come> wrote in message
> news:19991219112011...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
> | >| prozac 625 wrote in message ...
> | >| Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
> | >| What do you call it?
> |
> |
> | its called backward swing. you would rarely see this on the peak meters
> that so
> | many cb'ers use. if a amp is putting out more than it should on am and
> isnt
> | left with any head room you will see it back swing. thats why so many guys
> | sound raspy and muffled. they may have there box on a peak meter thinking
> they
> | have all kinds of swing when in reality on a rms meter there backswinging
> and
> | sounding like shit.
> |
> |
> | Good luck and best regards from Tim 082.
> | IR-DX Group http://home.wxs.nl/~19ir01
> | LD-DX Group http://come.to/limadelta
> | Kp-DX Group http://www.gate.net/~kp
> | Daily Updated 11 Meter DX News
> | http://home.t-online.de/home/IRDX.GERMany/dxnews~1.htm
--
Happy Holidaze!
Posts to the newsgroup DO NOT need a copy e-mailed to me. Thanks.
(Unless you're afraid I won't see it!)
Unit SIX-NINE Chesapeake Bay
prozac 625
Tim
just delete them. 73 tim
>
>Ok Tim I see your message there is no need to send it to me via Email since
>I do allot of serious work through my Email I would be happy if I never get
>Unwanted CB Emails again..
>I Will read the messages on the board I promise.
Tim
>I just changed my return email address to your email address so enjoy
>spanning your self!!!!
prozac 625
spanning your self!!!!
"Tim" <zeroei...@aol.come> wrote in message
| my newsreader does that automattically. do like we do with your unwanted
post.
| just delete them. 73 tim
|
| >
| >Ok Tim I see your message there is no need to send it to me via Email
since
| >I do allot of serious work through my Email I would be happy if I never
get
| >Unwanted CB Emails again..
| >I Will read the messages on the board I promise.
|
|
Scott (Unit 69)
prozac 625 wrote:
>
> I just changed my return email address to your email address so enjoy
> spanning your self!!!!
> and I changed come to com~~~~
--
am@yourhouse.com DriveByShooter
davemade crew. Dont be a dick yourself changed how your newsreader replies
to people. Why should anyone because your lazy ass doesnt want to change
your newsreader have to delete your unwanted email.
Tim <zeroei...@aol.come> wrote in message
news:19991219121408...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
> dont dick ride me by using my email. save all that for the dave made
crew.
>
> >I just changed my return email address to your email address so enjoy
> >spanning your self!!!!
>
>
John J. Gervasi
a carrier with positive modulation via a swing kit. The real advantage is when
driving an amp. Remember, you can only hear the differences between the
carrier and the modulated signal. In order to detect AM you need this
difference and the greater the difference or PEP, the louder you sound. Most
amps are not linear in fact, if you look at the power curves for most amp
transistors there is usually a small range over which the transistor is truely
linear. So, if you just slightly over dirve an amp you typically end up with
modulation compression. The way to solve this problem is to minimize the dead
key and swing 6 to 12 times the dead key. I have seen a 2950 dead keying at 1W
and swinging to 16W driving a TX 667V from 80W to 300W. Not very linear is it
:-) But the detectable signal is superior. Of course, if you over drive the
amp with too high a drive you still get compression and that choked sound.
Hope this helps.
John
ice cream man
so-called old heads around here will accuse you of this and that . of course
you may have had that handle for a long time but no matter, icm out.......
Gunsmoke
Can I have your autograph....You Sir are 100% correct
Tim wrote in message <19991219112011...@ng-cu1.aol.com>...
>>| prozac 625 wrote in message ...
>>| Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
>>| What do you call it?
>
>
>its called backward swing. you would rarely see this on the peak meters
that so
>many cb'ers use. if a amp is putting out more than it should on am and isnt
>left with any head room you will see it back swing. thats why so many guys
>sound raspy and muffled. they may have there box on a peak meter thinking
they
>have all kinds of swing when in reality on a rms meter there backswinging
and
>sounding like shit.
>
>
Dirk Diggler
AM modulation. Please note the concept is the same~
(A)----------------------(B)
Point T1, X1 = (0 Sec,0 Ft )
Point T2, X2 = (10 Sec, 10Ft)
Average velocity = Delta X / Delta T (right?)
now if you go from point A to point B and back to point A what is your
average Velocity?
Answer: 10Ft - 0Ft / 10 Sec - 0 Sec = 0 Ft/Sec
Are you telling be he didn't move?
Average is not very reliable.
You need to know calculus to find the Instantaneous values of Velocity.
That is where my $60,000 education came in to play!
"DriveByShooter" <I a...@yourhouse.com> wrote in message
news:CW674.116$G31....@news2.voicenet.com...
| Sean that was the point in all of the examples the avg power was 500
watts,
| they all just had a different deadkey. Which would you assume would be the
| louder of all 3 situations? Since MC ducked answering it.
|
|
| Sean <bigf...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
| news:vg174.381$_q2....@news.corecomm.net...
| > Decreasing your carrier DOES reduce your range IF the average power is
| also
| > lower under fully modulated conditions.
| >
| > Some radios can produce the same average power whether set for a 2 watt
| > carrier or a 5 watt carrier. Other's can't. Whichever one maintains
the
| > highest average power and can fully modulate the envelope ( and then
| some )
| > will get out the farthest. Sean
| > >
| >
| > Capt Coleslaw <867...@aol.com> wrote in message ...
prozac 625
The story you just told makes no sense at all. There is not enough head
room? What Book can I find that statement in? LOL
Let me explain the most common reason of over modulation or "raspy and
muffled sound".
When people over modulate is has nothing to do with the size of the envelope
signal. There cause is when you drop your carrier so far that the Negative
Peeks approach the Zero (reference line on a scope) you will see that your
negative peaks are flatting out at this zero mark or in other words the
negative peaks are being clipped off.
You can key up 500 watts and swing to 10,000 watts this amount of swing
doesn't make you over modulate if you have the proper equipment to give you
that much swing.
-=PEAKABOO=-
"Hank Aaron" <jeffhe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:83h4iu$io4$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> who the hell hears someone's carrier when talking skip?!?! Just a
> question....
"When" I do talk DX. You will hear my carrier.
-=PEAKABOO=-
"Mr. 137" <ac137...@iwvisp.com> wrote in message
news:s5op419...@corp.supernews.com...
> I'd call it simple backswing, reflect watts resulting in burned radio
and
> box.
I do not understand what you mean by this one.
prozac 625
news:83jfk8$uva$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
COLD as ICE
<867...@aol.com> writes:
>Sorry MC this is not the case decreasing your carrier power in no way
>reduces your range. A reduction in carrier power has no bearing on total
>output power Let me ask you this lets assume we have 3 of the same
>amplifiers each capable of holding with audio 5oo watts rms power on am,
>Amp "A" is keyed up at 200 watts of carrier and modulated to 5oo watts of
>rms power, Amp "B" is keyed up at 500 watts and when modulated holds 500
>watts of rms power , Next Amp "C" is keyed up at 800 watts and is modualted
>back to 500 watts Which would have the greatest range or if all three keyed
>up at the same time which would be heard over the other and Why?
Sounds like I taught this lesson about 2 years ago right on this newsgroup. Oh
and Merry Christmas Den!!!!
ICE, ICE, AND MORE ICE MR. ICECOLD BIG APPLE TREES JUST GOT DOWN........
Hank Aaron
positive.. This in turn creates modulation "cut-off", which is backswing...
this is what will cause harmonics, distortion, etc, etc.... Right? Is this
what you meant?
Mr. 137 wrote in message ...
|I'd call it simple backswing, reflect watts resulting in burned radio and
|box.
|
|But correct me if I'm wrong. Has anyone heard of the "see-saw" effect?
The
|more the swing, the less the modulation? The lesser the swing, the more
the
|modulation? Or have I been out of the loop (or totally out of it for the
|past 8 years) and should be told to go sit in the corner now?
|
|137... back out!
|
|prozac 625 wrote in message ...
|>Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
|>What do you call it?
|>
prozac 625
Tim
tell me if you dont sound raspy.
Mr. 137
-=PEAKABOO=- wrote in message <83jfk8$uva$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
>
>I do not understand what you mean by this one.
>
>
The original message by 625 was...
prozac 625 wrote in message ...
>Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
>What do you call it?
>
... and I simply stated that it was backswing and reflective watts. Which
results in a burned radio and burnt box. If this is not correct or you have
any questions concerning this posting, feel free to email me. I'm no RF
expert but I am willing to learn more. That way I don't end up with a burnt
DAVEMADE (joke. Just kidding...). Okeedokee? Laterz BOO!
137... back out!!!
-=PEAKABOO=-
Which
> results in a burned radio and burnt box. If this is not correct or you
have
> any questions concerning this posting, feel free to email me. I'm no RF
> expert but I am willing to learn more. That way I don't end up with a
burnt
> DAVEMADE (joke. Just kidding...). Okeedokee? Laterz BOO!
>
> 137... back out!!!
The reason said I did not understand was because I can run say an 8 pill
box @ 19 volts, keying 2500 and swinging down on a bird 43 and my reflect
is only a couple of watts @ the antennas. The input reflect on the amps is
real low as well. See this is why I said I did not understand.
Mr. 137
>box @ 19 volts, keying 2500 and swinging down on a bird 43 and my reflect
>is only a couple of watts @ the antennas. The input reflect on the amps is
>real low as well. See this is why I said I did not understand.
>
>
Now why would that be? I mean, why would you want to key so high and swing
down? I'm just curious because wouldn't the modulation of your audio be
"choppy" or to the point of almost broken up? Out here in the Mohave, I've
seen some readings back swing from the Mag, Smokey Hills and other places
and the audio is real crappy. Why?
Besides, I believe and know that a properly tuned antenna system will cause
low reflect to the amps. But why would you want to key that high and swing
down? Makes no sense...
Miles Davis
are using. The device(s) can only do so much. Exact tuning or swing kits(!?)
alter the ratio of carrier to forward modulation or swing in a given amount
of "headroom". I rarely run my radios higher than 25% of the peak output.
Why make the radios do all the work when those things behind you have
heatsinks? If you need more watts add a stage. If that is not possible then
add a driver.
--
This is CB radio...........No crying allowed!
Miles Davis
Tim <zeroei...@aol.come> wrote in message
news:19991219112011...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
> >| prozac 625 wrote in message ...
> >| Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
> >| What do you call it?
>
>
Sean
easy way out. Whoever has the best antenna system wins : )
Actually, the guy with the biggest peak would be the loudest. Since
waveforms from radio to radio differ so much, it is impossible to tell given
this example. Sean
>
DriveByShooter > wrote in message ...
Sean that was the point in all of the examples the avg power was 500 watts,
they all just had a different deadkey. Which would you assume would be the
louder of all 3 situations? Since MC ducked answering it.
Sean <bigf...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
news:vg174.381$_q2....@news.corecomm.net...
> Decreasing your carrier DOES reduce your range IF the average power is
also
> lower under fully modulated conditions.
>
> Some radios can produce the same average power whether set for a 2 watt
> carrier or a 5 watt carrier. Other's can't. Whichever one maintains the
> highest average power and can fully modulate the envelope ( and then
some )
> will get out the farthest. Sean
> >
>
> Capt Coleslaw <867...@aol.com> wrote in message ...
> Sorry MC this is not the case decreasing your carrier power in no way
> reduces your range. A reduction in carrier power has no bearing on total
> output power Let me ask you this lets assume we have 3 of the same
> amplifiers each capable of holding with audio 5oo watts rms power on am,
> Amp "A" is keyed up at 200 watts of carrier and modulated to 5oo watts
of
> rms power, Amp "B" is keyed up at 500 watts and when modulated holds 500
> watts of rms power , Next Amp "C" is keyed up at 800 watts and is
modualted
> back to 500 watts Which would have the greatest range or if all three
keyed
> up at the same time which would be heard over the other and Why?
>
Miles Davis
waste time wasting time?
--
This is CB radio...........No crying allowed!
Miles Davis
Scott (Unit 69) <upp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:385D0B00...@hotmail.com...
> I hear ya' about the emails!!!
>
> prozac 625 wrote:
> >
> > Ok Tim I see your message there is no need to send it to me via Email
since
> > I do allot of serious work through my Email I would be happy if I never
get
> > Unwanted CB Emails again..
> > I Will read the messages on the board I promise.
Miles Davis
--
This is CB radio...........No crying allowed!
Miles Davis
prozac 625 <xeroei...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:UWa74.6065$mv4.1...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com...
> Dear Timmy boy:
> The story you just told makes no sense at all. There is not enough head
> room? What Book can I find that statement in? LOL
> Let me explain the most common reason of over modulation or "raspy and
> muffled sound".
> When people over modulate is has nothing to do with the size of the
envelope
> signal. There cause is when you drop your carrier so far that the Negative
> Peeks approach the Zero (reference line on a scope) you will see that your
> negative peaks are flatting out at this zero mark or in other words the
> negative peaks are being clipped off.
> You can key up 500 watts and swing to 10,000 watts this amount of swing
> doesn't make you over modulate if you have the proper equipment to give
you
> that much swing.
>
Miles Davis
--
This is CB radio...........No crying allowed!
Miles Davis
Dirk Diggler <DirkD...@Bayshorenetwork.com> wrote in message
news:nIa74.6059$mv4.1...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com...
> I am going to use velocity to prove a point since it is much easier than
Rf
> AM modulation. Please note the concept is the same~
>
> (A)----------------------(B)
>
> Point T1, X1 = (0 Sec,0 Ft )
> Point T2, X2 = (10 Sec, 10Ft)
>
> Average velocity = Delta X / Delta T (right?)
>
> now if you go from point A to point B and back to point A what is your
> average Velocity?
>
> Answer: 10Ft - 0Ft / 10 Sec - 0 Sec = 0 Ft/Sec
>
> Are you telling be he didn't move?
>
> Average is not very reliable.
> You need to know calculus to find the Instantaneous values of Velocity.
>
> That is where my $60,000 education came in to play!
>
>
>
> "DriveByShooter" <I a...@yourhouse.com> wrote in message
> news:CW674.116$G31....@news2.voicenet.com...
Miles Davis
--
This is CB radio...........No crying allowed!
Miles Davis
John J. Gervasi <jger...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:385D1C31...@bellatlantic.net...
Hank Aaron
Dirk Diggler wrote in message ...
MC Turner
ICEMAN RRC wrote:
> I would like to know why swing is good. Why is deadkeying 1 watt and swinging
> 15 watts better than deadkeying 5 watts and swinging 15 watts?
> I would think the higher the watts the more power you would have. Why would
> you want to deadkey next to nothing and swing so much?
Ok for a true AM signal you would need to have the carrier at 1/4 of the peak
power to be at 100% modulation.. So a 4 watt carrier would need a 16 watts peak.
This is the preferred method. Reducing the carrier will exaggerate the
modulation. Some of us call this : Suppressed carrier AM modulation. You gain
audio by reducing the carrier in most cases. Running a high carrier like say 8
watts with the same setup will not allow "room" for the AM signal to reach 100%
output modulation. In other words it would sound tight or pinched. You can get
away with running a high carrier is some situations. Most of these setups are
Class C battle box setups with radios that are severely over modulated. In this
case even though the carrier is high it still sounds "loud" Even though the
loudness people hear is really distortion.. I am from the group of people that
like to run a station that has more than enough room for the output signal to
produce 100% mod. I believe that whoever is producing the most audio and the
highest peak power will win over a guy that keys up and back swings... All the
while it is easier on the equipment to key less and swing high....
MC
MC Turner
Hank Aaron wrote:
> "Swing Kit" - Exceeds 100% modulation on the positive modulation peaks
> (easily demonstrated on a "scope"), positive modulation peaks can and more
> than likely will exceed 100% modulation without producing distortion. This
> in fact increases the amplitude or power output of the CB.
>
True..
>
> Swing Kits will increase modulation......which in turn make you seem
> louder.....
True.. I will add that I only run a modulator style setup if the radio is
going to be used to drive an amp that likes a low keyup but will make use of
some good peak power. In other words I setup modulators in radios if that is
needed to get an amp output of 1/4 the peak with good audio and good peak
power.
> and despite this argument of due to lower
> carrier....etc....etc.... I have a question for all of you I suppose....
> who the hell hears someone's carrier when talking skip?!?! Just a
> question....
>
That is true. The guy with the most audio and peak power will be heard... But
it still is impressive to hear a huge carrier come out and wipe the CH clean
even if the audio is lower.. :)
MC
>
> Take care.... Im gonna feel the love on this post..
>
> ICEMAN RRC wrote in message
> <19991218143636...@ng-ft1.aol.com>...
-=PEAKABOO=-
but I think the big carrier works better in that heavy duty DX, if I did
not tell you I was keying high, your ears would not tell you. the audio is
crystal clear when doing this.
"Mr. 137" <ac137...@iwvisp.com> wrote in message
news:s5r85u...@corp.supernews.com...
JJ
>
> ICEMAN RRC wrote:
>
> > I would like to know why swing is good. Why is deadkeying 1 watt and swinging
> > 15 watts better than deadkeying 5 watts and swinging 15 watts?
> > I would think the higher the watts the more power you would have. Why would
> > you want to deadkey next to nothing and swing so much?
>
> power to be at 100% modulation.. So a 4 watt carrier would need a 16 watts peak.
> This is the preferred method. Reducing the carrier will exaggerate the
> modulation. Some of us call this : Suppressed carrier AM modulation. You gain
> audio by reducing the carrier in most cases. Running a high carrier like say 8
> watts with the same setup will not allow "room" for the AM signal to reach 100%
> output modulation. In other words it would sound tight or pinched. You can get
> away with running a high carrier is some situations. Most of these setups are
> Class C battle box setups with radios that are severely over modulated. In this
> case even though the carrier is high it still sounds "loud" Even though the
> loudness people hear is really distortion.. I am from the group of people that
> like to run a station that has more than enough room for the output signal to
> produce 100% mod. I believe that whoever is producing the most audio and the
> highest peak power will win over a guy that keys up and back swings... All the
> while it is easier on the equipment to key less and swing high....
>
> MC
The only thing all this swing accomplishes is it makes the transmit
output meter and receiver s meters swing wildly with modulation which
makes everyone think they must be putting out a really big signal
because the meters are swinging. Other than that, it accomplishes
nothing.
-=PEAKABOO=-
"Tim" <zeroei...@aol.come> wrote in message
news:19991219112011...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
> >| prozac 625 wrote in message ...
> >| Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
> >| What do you call it?
>
>
that so
> many cb'ers use. if a amp is putting out more than it should on am and
isnt
> left with any head room you will see it back swing. thats why so many
guys
> sound raspy and muffled. they may have there box on a peak meter
> have all kinds of swing when in reality on a rms meter there
backswinging and
> sounding like shit.
if prozac takes his 32 and keys high and swings down 500 watts on a bird
he will still sound crystal clear. I am not Prozac Cheerleader I just know
his amp should be of quality
Hank Aaron
JJ wrote in message <385E9D...@no.net>...
MC Turner
prozac 625 wrote:
> If you read his question you would know none of the choices have 100%
> modulation>
> 1.) Choice "A" would have to swing to 1000 watts for 100%
I am assuming you are using a bird 43 for this test..
Choice A is a 200 watt carrier and a 500 RMS on audio.. 500 watts RMS is 1414
peak watts. 1400 peak watts with a 200 watt carrier is over modulation..
>
> 2.) Choice "B" has 0%.
Actually Choice "B" has more than 0%. That would mean a 500 watt carrier with
1400 peak watts. That's around 1/3 of the peak.
>
> 3.) choice "C" is keying up with 800 watts and dropping down to 500 Not
> good!!
>
That's really 800 watts with a peak of 1400. I would still run choice "A" or
choice "B". I bet choice "A" would win in a contest as he would be the
loudest..
Just in case you did not know how to figure peak power from an RMS figure on a
bird here is how:
Of course this does not apply to an AM carrier... Only a modulated signal.
Take the modulated RMS figure and times it by 2.828 times to get peak.. That
500 watt RMS figure from choice "B" was really over 1400 peak watts. As you can
see it is not tight.. To prove this I did a test at home with my new Bird43
peak meter and a SB 220. On modulation my SB 220 was showing 700 RMS bird. I
flipped the peak switch on and the meter read right between 1900-2000 watts
holding (2.5kw slug). Do the math: 700 X 2.828 times is =1979 peak watts. It
was exactly on.
MC Turner.. ( I guess I will start using my full name "MC Turner" again as I see
there is another MC on the group now. I would not want to get confused with him
and I am sure he would not want to get confused with me :) Things have changed
in the last 4 years on this group..
>
> |
> | I don't really understand your question but the amplifier with the
> greatest
> | carrier power is going to talk the farthest - assuming you have 100%
> | modulation.
> |
> | If you're over modulated, which in your case you are, there is going to be
> a
> | large part of the carrier that is transmitting nothing at all. How nothing
> can
> | be more powerful than something is beyond the grasp this author. I
> encourage
> | you to run as much "mawj" as you want. I'll be the one making all the
> contacts
> | across the world, and you'll be the one making all the noise across town.
> :->
> |
> | MC just got down
> |
MC Turner
stated RMS power. Holding steady on RMS meter and not dipping or pulling back
is not going to sound tight... you know it I know it..
MC Turner
prozac 625
RMS is peak / .707 or about 70% of the Peak
What do you need a meter for?
MC Turner
MC Turner
Sean wrote:
> Since the average power remains the same in all circumstances, i'll take the
> easy way out. Whoever has the best antenna system wins : )
>
> Actually, the guy with the biggest peak would be the loudest. Since
> waveforms from radio to radio differ so much, it is impossible to tell given
> this example. Sean
> >
>
> DriveByShooter > wrote in message ...
> Sean that was the point in all of the examples the avg power was 500 watts,
> they all just had a different deadkey. Which would you assume would be the
> louder of all 3 situations? Since MC ducked answering it.
>
> Sean <bigf...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
> news:vg174.381$_q2....@news.corecomm.net...
MC Turner
prozac 625 wrote:
> Peak is RMS * .707 or about 70% more then the RMS.
> RMS is peak / .707 or about 70% of the Peak
> What do you need a meter for?
>
My point was that if he is keying up 500 RMS and holding steady he would not
have 0% mod.. He is still producing over 1400 peak watts..
am@yourhouse.com DriveByShooter
test are done in the same vehicle which would prove to be the best way to
setup to win in a keydown.
Sean <bigf...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
news:esk74.150$ct.1...@news.corecomm.net...
AB7RS
>
> Key up 800 watts and drop down to 500?
> What do you call it?
>
Modulation.
Mr. 137
-=PEAKABOO=- wrote in message <83maao$8fo$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
Hank Aaron
Go up and start from the beginning smelly boy, and you will see my
explanation as to why "swing kits" ARE beneficial.....
If modulation of negative peaks exceed 100%, what will this do?
JJ wrote in message <385EC7...@no.net>...
|Hank Aaron wrote:
|>
|> Arrrrng! Wrong! Thank you for playing "Do you know your CB hobby"
|
|I know enough to know that swing mods do nothing but make cbers happy
|because all they do is make meters swing. The modulation is no better
|than a carrier modulated up to 100%, however most cbers don't know that
|so ARRRRNGGGGG!! Thank you for playing even though you don't know the
|answer.
Boba Fett
Tim wrote in message <19991219174641...@ng-cp1.aol.com>...
>your talking a bunch of bull shit. try keying up 800 and swing back to 500
and
>tell me if you dont sound raspy.
>
I could do that and you probably wouldn't even be able to tell.
JJ
JJ
>
> prozac 625 wrote:
>
> > If you read his question you would know none of the choices have 100%
> > modulation>
> > 1.) Choice "A" would have to swing to 1000 watts for 100%
>
> I am assuming you are using a bird 43 for this test..
>
> Choice A is a 200 watt carrier and a 500 RMS on audio.. 500 watts RMS is 1414
> peak watts. 1400 peak watts with a 200 watt carrier is over modulation..
To modulate a 200 watt carrier to 100% requires 100 watts of audio, the
peak power at 100% modulation is 4 times the carrier or 800 watts.
JJ
>
> I dont JJ? Perhaps you should go and get pissy with Jay some more... Gee...
> Go up and start from the beginning smelly boy, and you will see my
> explanation as to why "swing kits" ARE beneficial.....
>
> If modulation of negative peaks exceed 100%, what will this do?
If the negative peaks exceed 100% you get distortion and splatter
because exceeding 100% modulation on the negative peaks cuts the carrier
off. You can exceed 100% modulation on the positive peaks (up to the
limits of what the power supply can handle) and get a good signal as
long as you don't let the negative peaks exceed 100%, but this takes
special circuitry. The typical cb swing mod kit dosen't do it. I repeat,
all the swing kits do is make cbers jump up and down and think they have
a "big radio" because they see all the meters wildly swinging.
Hank Aaron
explaining.... That is what books (in which the authors receive nice amount
of funds) are for.... go to the library...
Cut & Paste of what I have already mentioned:
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Swing Kit" - Exceeds 100% modulation on the positive modulation peaks
(easily demonstrated on a "scope"), positive modulation peaks can and more
than likely will exceed 100% modulation without producing distortion. This
in fact increases the amplitude or power output of the CB.
Swing Kits will increase modulation......which in turn make you seem
louder.....and despite this argument of due to lower
carrier....etc....etc.... I have a question for all of you I suppose....
who the hell hears someone's carrier when talking skip?!?! Just a
question....
JJ wrote in message <385F1C...@no.net>...
Hank Aaron
Hank Aaron
JJ wrote in message <385F1C...@no.net>...
|Hank Aaron wrote:
|>
|> I dont JJ? Perhaps you should go and get pissy with Jay some more...
Gee...
|> Go up and start from the beginning smelly boy, and you will see my
|> explanation as to why "swing kits" ARE beneficial.....
|>
|> If modulation of negative peaks exceed 100%, what will this do?
|
|If the negative peaks exceed 100% you get distortion and splatter
|because exceeding 100% modulation on the negative peaks cuts the carrier
|off. You can exceed 100% modulation on the positive peaks (up to the
|limits of what the power supply can handle) and get a good signal as
|long as you don't let the negative peaks exceed 100%, but this takes
|special circuitry. The typical cb swing mod kit dosen't do it. I repeat,
|all the swing kits do is make cbers jump up and down and think they have
|a "big radio" because they see all the meters wildly swinging.
Actually to be more precise; if negative peaks exceed 100% modulation,
harmonics of the modulation frequency will be produced. Not to mention
downward modulation.
Anyway...... everyone is open to their own opinions.... however, remember
your statement is just that..... You can "say" all day long that "swing
kits" do nothing, how about some proof. I would like to be objective about
this.... though I HAVE provided THE explanation as to WHY "swing kits" are
beneficial, and in fact -DO- something. Your turn...
Miles Davis
About 8 years ago I put a swing kit in a radio and it seemed to work with an
amp quite well. Almost 3 years ago I got one from Copper Electronics in TN.
I followed the instructions on the install and turned on my radio and it
started to smoke. As I was removing the device I checked with the
instructions to see if I put it in right. I did. The radio is a GrantXL (my
personal favorite!). At this time I'm batting about .500. Most of my Grants
are tuned -out to maximum peak wattage and turned to about 2 watts or less.
Question: What does a swing kit do that my method does not?
--
This is CB radio...........No crying allowed!
Miles Davis
Hank Aaron <jeffhe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:83nkch$k3t$1...@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net...
> Here you go JJ, learn something new... I dont feel like re-typing and
> explaining.... That is what books (in which the authors receive nice
amount
> of funds) are for.... go to the library...
>
> Cut & Paste of what I have already mentioned:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Swing Kit" - Exceeds 100% modulation on the positive modulation peaks
> (easily demonstrated on a "scope"), positive modulation peaks can and more
> than likely will exceed 100% modulation without producing distortion.
This
> in fact increases the amplitude or power output of the CB.
>
> Swing Kits will increase modulation......which in turn make you seem
> louder.....and despite this argument of due to lower
> carrier....etc....etc.... I have a question for all of you I suppose....
> who the hell hears someone's carrier when talking skip?!?! Just a
> question....
>
>
Dave Hall
>
> JJ wrote in message <385F1C...@no.net>...
> |Hank Aaron wrote:
> |>
> |> I dont JJ? Perhaps you should go and get pissy with Jay some more...
> Gee...
> |> Go up and start from the beginning smelly boy, and you will see my
> |> explanation as to why "swing kits" ARE beneficial.....
> |>
> |> If modulation of negative peaks exceed 100%, what will this do?
> |
> |If the negative peaks exceed 100% you get distortion and splatter
> |because exceeding 100% modulation on the negative peaks cuts the carrier
> |off. You can exceed 100% modulation on the positive peaks (up to the
> |limits of what the power supply can handle) and get a good signal as
> |long as you don't let the negative peaks exceed 100%, but this takes
> |special circuitry. The typical cb swing mod kit dosen't do it. I repeat,
> |all the swing kits do is make cbers jump up and down and think they have
> |a "big radio" because they see all the meters wildly swinging.
>
> harmonics of the modulation frequency will be produced. Not to mention
> downward modulation.
>
> Anyway...... everyone is open to their own opinions.... however, remember
> your statement is just that..... You can "say" all day long that "swing
> kits" do nothing, how about some proof. I would like to be objective about
> this.... though I HAVE provided THE explanation as to WHY "swing kits" are
> beneficial, and in fact -DO- something. Your turn...
Ok, here's the REAL deal. Swing kits are more "form" than "function".
Yes, they can allow higher positive modulation, simply because they are
lowering the carrier. The peak power is the same as it was before.
The downside is that you can NEVER exceed 100% negative modulation. At
100% negative, you are at ZERO power. Increasing modulation only widens
the cutoff point. Modulation that is driven to cutoff will cause
distortion and splatter. That guy that bleeds you all 40 channels, is
probably running a badly butchered radio with a "swing kit".
As to the original question, "are swing kits beneficial?" The answer
depends on your objectives. If your goal is to be loud, obnoxious, and
cause interference to both neighbors and other Cbers, then the swing kit
will help. If you goal is just to put out a good, reasonably loud, but
CLEAN signal, then a swing kit will not do you any good. Trying to run
one with the mod limiter still functioning defeats the purpose. You
cannot take advantage of the huge positive peak without having to deal
with the drawbacks of the negative cutoff.
There is a more complicated method called "controlled carrier" which
allows the carrier ro rise in proportion to the modulation. Since the
peak modulation is never more than 4 times the carrier(at its highest
point), the negative cutoff can be kept right at 100%. But the apparent
swing is still the same.
Dave
"Sandbagger"
Dave Hall
>
> prozac 625 wrote:
>
> > RMS is peak / .707 or about 70% of the Peak
> > What do you need a meter for?
> >
>
> My point was that if he is keying up 500 RMS and holding steady he would not
> have 0% mod.. He is still producing over 1400 peak watts..
>
Actually in a properly tuned, symmetrical radio, 500 watts of carrier,
with slight forward, or no movement would be peaking close to 2000 watts
at 100% modulation (4X carrier power). A Bird meter tends to average the
power, and the positive peaks will cancel out the negative ones. If both
halves of the modualtion are symmetrical and equal, then there should be
no movement during modulation. Any "swing" on an RMS meter indicates an
imbalance in modulation. With an overmodulated signal, there is usually
more "positive" modulation power than "negative" modulation power, since
you cannot go below the zero power level at cutoff. As positive power
continues to rise, it starts to show as forward swing, since you are now
unbalanced. It may look good on the meter, but you are no longer
"clean".
Negative swing happens when your amp does not have enough reserve to
faithfully reproduce your peak positive modulation power proportinate to
the carrier. The fix is simply to back down the drive power until the
backward swing stops. Usually the point where the meter back swings to,
is where you should then set the dead key power for, if you want to
avoid further backswinging.
Dave
"Sandbagger"
MC Turner
JJ wrote:
> MC Turner wrote:
> >
> > prozac 625 wrote:
> >
We understand that. That's why I stated that " 1400 peak watts with a 200 watt
carrier is over modulation.." Or reduced carrier AM....
I guess I did not make my self clear and I apologize. I was just trying to state
that if you stand still on an RMS meter you are still producing 1400+ watts of peak
power if you are using a bird meter.
MC Turner
MC Turner
Dave Hall wrote:
> MC Turner wrote:
> >
> > prozac 625 wrote:
> >
> > > Peak is RMS * .707 or about 70% more then the RMS.
> > > RMS is peak / .707 or about 70% of the Peak
> > > What do you need a meter for?
> > >
> >
> > My point was that if he is keying up 500 RMS and holding steady he would not
> > have 0% mod.. He is still producing over 1400 peak watts..
> >
>
> Actually in a properly tuned, symmetrical radio, 500 watts of carrier,
> with slight forward, or no movement would be peaking close to 2000 watts
> at 100% modulation (4X carrier power). A Bird meter tends to average the
> power, and the positive peaks will cancel out the negative ones. If both
> halves of the modualtion are symmetrical and equal, then there should be
> no movement during modulation. Any "swing" on an RMS meter indicates an
> imbalance in modulation. With an overmodulated signal, there is usually
> more "positive" modulation power than "negative" modulation power, since
> you cannot go below the zero power level at cutoff. As positive power
> continues to rise, it starts to show as forward swing, since you are now
> unbalanced. It may look good on the meter, but you are no longer
> "clean".
True.. I did state "bird 43". I was using the Bird figure of 2.828 times RMS to
get peak just to prove a point. The original post said 500 RMS watts. Prozac
said 0% mod if he was holding steady at 500. I was just letting him know that
this was not the case..
>
>
> Negative swing happens when your amp does not have enough reserve to
> faithfully reproduce your peak positive modulation power proportinate to
> the carrier. The fix is simply to back down the drive power until the
> backward swing stops.
Or reduce the carrier so there is room. That way you still get the peak out..
> Usually the point where the meter back swings to,
> is where you should then set the dead key power for, if you want to
> avoid further backswinging.
>
Good point... Or use a peak meter and tune for the general "rule" of 1/4 or peak..
MC Turner
>
> Dave
> "Sandbagger"
MC Turner
back on and RMS meter does not mean that you are going to sound bad or
pinched in this particular setup. Look on the scope or try a peak kit
in the bird. He still has 1400+ peak watts with that 800 watt carrier..
MC Turner
MC Turner
at the higher carrier than I stated?
MC Turner
JJ wrote:
MC Turner
any purpose. So he believed it. He probably has no electrical or RF theory to
back it up.... JJ lets hear your explanation of why Reduced Carrier AM
operation is not beneficial in any situation. Also explain to us exactly why
you think it makes no difference on the receiver of the other station....
MC Turner
Hank Aaron wrote:
> I dont JJ? Perhaps you should go and get pissy with Jay some more... Gee...
> Go up and start from the beginning smelly boy, and you will see my
> explanation as to why "swing kits" ARE beneficial.....
>
> If modulation of negative peaks exceed 100%, what will this do?
>
> JJ wrote in message <385EC7...@no.net>...
JJ
>
> Anyway...... everyone is open to their own opinions.... however, remember
> your statement is just that..... You can "say" all day long that "swing
> kits" do nothing, how about some proof. I would like to be objective about
> this.... though I HAVE provided THE explanation as to WHY "swing kits" are
> beneficial, and in fact -DO- something. Your turn...
And you can "say" all day long that "swing kits" do something, but the
proof is that a swing kit does nothing more that what a full carrier
with good modulation will do. Just keep on believing your cb myths as
that is what cbers are good at.
JJ
>
> JJ is missing the point. Somebody once told him that swing kits are no good for
> any purpose. So he believed it. He probably has no electrical or RF theory to
> back it up.... JJ lets hear your explanation of why Reduced Carrier AM
> operation is not beneficial in any situation. Also explain to us exactly why
> you think it makes no difference on the receiver of the other station....
>
> MC Turner
I have over 40 years experience in electronics and radio communications,
it has been explained many times, cbers refuse to believe it. Go back
and read Dave's posts, he explains it well, if you can't understand that
then you can't be helped.
JJ
> > |>
> > |> I dont JJ? Perhaps you should go and get pissy with Jay some more...
> > Gee...
> > |> Go up and start from the beginning smelly boy, and you will see my
> > |> explanation as to why "swing kits" ARE beneficial.....
> > |>
> > |> If modulation of negative peaks exceed 100%, what will this do?
> > |
> > |because exceeding 100% modulation on the negative peaks cuts the carrier
> > |off. You can exceed 100% modulation on the positive peaks (up to the
> > |limits of what the power supply can handle) and get a good signal as
> > |long as you don't let the negative peaks exceed 100%, but this takes
> > |special circuitry. The typical cb swing mod kit dosen't do it. I repeat,
> > |all the swing kits do is make cbers jump up and down and think they have
> > |a "big radio" because they see all the meters wildly swinging.
> >
> > Actually to be more precise; if negative peaks exceed 100% modulation,
> > harmonics of the modulation frequency will be produced. Not to mention
> > downward modulation.
> >
> > your statement is just that..... You can "say" all day long that "swing
> > kits" do nothing, how about some proof. I would like to be objective about
> > this.... though I HAVE provided THE explanation as to WHY "swing kits" are
> > beneficial, and in fact -DO- something. Your turn...
>
> Yes, they can allow higher positive modulation, simply because they are
> lowering the carrier. The peak power is the same as it was before.
>
> The downside is that you can NEVER exceed 100% negative modulation. At
> 100% negative, you are at ZERO power. Increasing modulation only widens
> the cutoff point. Modulation that is driven to cutoff will cause
> distortion and splatter. That guy that bleeds you all 40 channels, is
> probably running a badly butchered radio with a "swing kit".
>
> As to the original question, "are swing kits beneficial?" The answer
> depends on your objectives. If your goal is to be loud, obnoxious, and
> cause interference to both neighbors and other Cbers, then the swing kit
> will help. If you goal is just to put out a good, reasonably loud, but
> CLEAN signal, then a swing kit will not do you any good. Trying to run
> one with the mod limiter still functioning defeats the purpose. You
> cannot take advantage of the huge positive peak without having to deal
> with the drawbacks of the negative cutoff.
>
> There is a more complicated method called "controlled carrier" which
> allows the carrier ro rise in proportion to the modulation. Since the
> peak modulation is never more than 4 times the carrier(at its highest
> point), the negative cutoff can be kept right at 100%. But the apparent
> swing is still the same.
>
> Dave
> "Sandbagger"
Uh-oh Dave, you are challenging the "swing kit" myth here, Hank and
others who like to believe in these myths won't like that.
MC Turner
Dave Hall wrote:
Donate forget to mention he is probably running his mike gain wide open...
>
> As to the original question, "are swing kits beneficial?" The answer
> depends on your objectives. If your goal is to be loud, obnoxious, and
> cause interference to both neighbors and other Cbers, then the swing kit
> will help.
Or if you are using the kit to tune the radio to an amp. Allot of radio/amp
setup would benefit from a swing kit so there output is is More towards the
linear side but with good peak power.. That's the main purpose of the kits in my
opinion..
> If you goal is just to put out a good, reasonably loud, but
> CLEAN signal, then a swing kit will not do you any good.
Unless you are dealing with an amp that likes a low deadly but will benefit from
good peak input power..
> Trying to run
> one with the mod limiter still functioning defeats the purpose.
Maybe, maybe not. You can run a limiter with my kit. Just adjust the AMC
correctly. Some radios really do not want to produce much peak from a low
carrier.
> You
> cannot take advantage of the huge positive peak without having to deal
> with the drawbacks of the negative cutoff.
>
> There is a more complicated method called "controlled carrier" which
> allows the carrier ro rise in proportion to the modulation. Since the
> peak modulation is never more than 4 times the carrier(at its highest
> point), the negative cutoff can be kept right at 100%. But the apparent
> swing is still the same.
>
Continue...
Thanks
MC Turner
>
> Dave
> "Sandbagger"
prozac 625
The only inteligent part of an AM signal is the modulation not the carrier.
right?
Now if you can swing your radio to swing from 90 to 100 watts you only have
10 watts of inteligent signal. Right?
No is you reduce this waisted carrier you say 5 watts and with a "swing kit"
still swing to 100 watts you now have 95 watts of inteligent signal. Right?
95 watts of inteligent signal is better then 5 watts of inteligent signal.
Right?
On most radios with out a "swing kit your modulation will clip off at such a
low carrier.
prozac 625
both I will specify both. If Not specified It mean either RMS. or peak only!
"MC Turner" <c_tu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:385F9BE9...@ix.netcom.com...
prozac 625
use both I will specify both. If Not specified It mean either RMS. or peak
only!
"MC Turner" <c_tu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
|
|
| JJ wrote:
|
| > MC Turner wrote:
| > >
| > > prozac 625 wrote:
| > >
prozac 625
on AM mode.
I guess that like saying from (point A to point B) or (point A to point C)
are both 5. If not specified it would mean they are both the same distance.
unless I said one is 5 Ft and the other is 5 inches.
"prozac 625" <xeroei...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:iyO74.7266$mv4.3...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com...
| let me explain then I talk wattage I only talk peak or RMS not both if I
use
| both I will specify both. If Not specified It mean either RMS. or peak
only!
|
|
| "MC Turner" <c_tu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
| news:385F9BE9...@ix.netcom.com...
| |
| |
| | Dave Hall wrote:
| |
| | > MC Turner wrote:
| | > >
| | > > prozac 625 wrote:
| | > >
JJ
-
Your statements prove you understand nothing about it. Reducing the
carrier to 5 watts and swinging to 100 gains you nothing more that
having a 100 watt carrier fully modulated. You obviously understand
nothing about how modulating a carrier works.
JJ
>
> let me explain then I talk wattage I only talk peak or RMS. not both if I
> use both I will specify both. If Not specified It mean either RMS. or peak
> only!
> "MC Turner" <c_tu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>
Get it straigt, you say when you talk wattage you only talk peak or RMS
then you say not both. Then you say if not specified it means either RMS
or peak. So which is it? Maybe you need to take a little more of that
prozac.
JJ
>
> This means if you key 500 Peak And swing to 500 Peak you have no modulation
> on AM mode.
If you the output is a steady 500 watts, than yes, you have no
modulation, but if you apply audio and the carrier swings, it is
modulated. What you say above dosen't even make sense.
prozac 625
is heavier a pound of feathers or a pound of bricks?? Come use your brain a
little here.
"JJ" <j...@no.net> wrote in message news:385FB4...@no.net...
prozac 625
2 moron. I did the math in my head you probably ran and got a calculator the
correct answer is 169.705627485 need I say more??????
"JJ" <j...@no.net> wrote in message news:385FCA...@no.net...
| prozac 625 wrote:
| >
| > AHHHHH what I mean is it doesn't matter 120 volts RMS. = 169.73 Peak.
What
| > is heavier a pound of feathers or a pound of bricks?? Come use your
brain a
| > little here.
|
| 120 volts rms X 1.414 = 169.68 peak. Come use your brain a little here.
Hank Aaron
The Grant XL is within the list of radios that carry with it a "swing kit"
exception.... I would not recommend anything more than buffering its
limiting transistor and a good peaking..... Grant XL's are GREAT radios
alone..... I have one, I love it.... If though, it is a good idea to make
reference to CB brand name and models... Then, one radio that utilizes the
"swing kit" wonderfully is the Cobra 25/29 LTD....
To answer your question with more detail.... I myself and not referring to
pre-fabricated/mass produced "swing kits" as most of them do NOTHING. If
you have that Papa/Mama Modulator with you, carefully take a hammer and bust
it up.... I believe I read it is only a RESISTOR in the whole epocy
shell..... wires such as the positive, negative and mic input aren't even
used...... Pretty funny I think..
Miles Davis wrote in message <83nn8s$oo3$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
Hank Aaron
I was not defending whether or not a "swing" kit in itself is
beneficial.... "Swing Kits" are most certainly beneficial period.
MC Turner wrote in message <385FB287...@ix.netcom.com>...
|
|
|Dave Hall wrote:
|
|> Hank Aaron wrote:
|> >
|> > JJ wrote in message <385F1C...@no.net>...
|> > |Hank Aaron wrote:
|> > |>
|> > |> I dont JJ? Perhaps you should go and get pissy with Jay some
more...
|> > Gee...
|> > |> Go up and start from the beginning smelly boy, and you will see my
|> > |> explanation as to why "swing kits" ARE beneficial.....
|> > |>
|> > |> If modulation of negative peaks exceed 100%, what will this do?
|> > |
|> > |If the negative peaks exceed 100% you get distortion and splatter
|> > |because exceeding 100% modulation on the negative peaks cuts the
carrier
|> > |off. You can exceed 100% modulation on the positive peaks (up to the
|> > |limits of what the power supply can handle) and get a good signal as
|> > |long as you don't let the negative peaks exceed 100%, but this takes
|> > |special circuitry. The typical cb swing mod kit dosen't do it. I
repeat,
|> > |all the swing kits do is make cbers jump up and down and think they
have
|> > |a "big radio" because they see all the meters wildly swinging.
|> >
Hank Aaron
because simply it showed intelligence.... Not just a "this is my opinion and
I dont know why" post such as yours was.... I see you still haven't given
me your reply yet.....
Baa-bye
JJ wrote in message <385F97...@no.net>...
|> As to the original question, "are swing kits beneficial?" The answer
|> depends on your objectives. If your goal is to be loud, obnoxious, and
|> cause interference to both neighbors and other Cbers, then the swing kit
|> will help. If you goal is just to put out a good, reasonably loud, but
|> CLEAN signal, then a swing kit will not do you any good. Trying to run
|> one with the mod limiter still functioning defeats the purpose. You
|> cannot take advantage of the huge positive peak without having to deal
|> with the drawbacks of the negative cutoff.
|>
|> There is a more complicated method called "controlled carrier" which
|> allows the carrier ro rise in proportion to the modulation. Since the
|> peak modulation is never more than 4 times the carrier(at its highest
|> point), the negative cutoff can be kept right at 100%. But the apparent
|> swing is still the same.
|>
Hank Aaron
more..
JJ wrote in message <385F97...@no.net>...
|Hank Aaron wrote:
|
|>
|> Anyway...... everyone is open to their own opinions.... however, remember
|> your statement is just that..... You can "say" all day long that "swing
|> kits" do nothing, how about some proof. I would like to be objective
about
|> this.... though I HAVE provided THE explanation as to WHY "swing kits"
are
|> beneficial, and in fact -DO- something. Your turn...
|
Hank Aaron
Dave Hall wrote in message <385F77...@worldlynx.net>...
|Hank Aaron wrote:
|>
|> JJ wrote in message <385F1C...@no.net>...
|> |Hank Aaron wrote:
|> |>
|> |> I dont JJ? Perhaps you should go and get pissy with Jay some more...
|> Gee...
|> |> Go up and start from the beginning smelly boy, and you will see my
|> |> explanation as to why "swing kits" ARE beneficial.....
|> |>
|> |> If modulation of negative peaks exceed 100%, what will this do?
|> |
|> |If the negative peaks exceed 100% you get distortion and splatter
|> |because exceeding 100% modulation on the negative peaks cuts the carrier
|> |off. You can exceed 100% modulation on the positive peaks (up to the
|> |limits of what the power supply can handle) and get a good signal as
|> |long as you don't let the negative peaks exceed 100%, but this takes
|> |special circuitry. The typical cb swing mod kit dosen't do it. I repeat,
|> |all the swing kits do is make cbers jump up and down and think they have
|> |a "big radio" because they see all the meters wildly swinging.
|>
|> Actually to be more precise; if negative peaks exceed 100% modulation,
|> harmonics of the modulation frequency will be produced. Not to mention
|> downward modulation.
|>
|> your statement is just that..... You can "say" all day long that "swing
|> kits" do nothing, how about some proof. I would like to be objective
about
|> this.... though I HAVE provided THE explanation as to WHY "swing kits"
are
|> beneficial, and in fact -DO- something. Your turn...
|
|
|Yes, they can allow higher positive modulation, simply because they are
|lowering the carrier. The peak power is the same as it was before.
|
|The downside is that you can NEVER exceed 100% negative modulation. At
|100% negative, you are at ZERO power. Increasing modulation only widens
|the cutoff point. Modulation that is driven to cutoff will cause
|distortion and splatter. That guy that bleeds you all 40 channels, is
|probably running a badly butchered radio with a "swing kit".
|
|
|As to the original question, "are swing kits beneficial?" The answer
|depends on your objectives. If your goal is to be loud, obnoxious, and
|cause interference to both neighbors and other Cbers, then the swing kit
|will help. If you goal is just to put out a good, reasonably loud, but
|CLEAN signal, then a swing kit will not do you any good. Trying to run
|one with the mod limiter still functioning defeats the purpose. You
|cannot take advantage of the huge positive peak without having to deal
|with the drawbacks of the negative cutoff.
|
|There is a more complicated method called "controlled carrier" which
|allows the carrier ro rise in proportion to the modulation. Since the
|peak modulation is never more than 4 times the carrier(at its highest
|point), the negative cutoff can be kept right at 100%. But the apparent
|swing is still the same.
|
|
|Dave
|"Sandbagger"
|
|
Dave,
Usually in a "swing kit" the collector of the final receives a burst of
positive voltage, which is in phase with the positive modulation swing.
This added DC voltage causes the final to amplify to a greater extent and
increase transmitter output power in step with the positive peak modulation.
As far as interference, etc, etc.... I suppose if someone disables their
limiter then, they might as well make use of the swing kit.... which is
beneficial..... does it give the appearance that they are louder? I say
yes.... if yes is the answer, then its safe to say it has a benefit.... this
debate/argument is NOT over the fact of how good the benefit is or is not
Take care
Hank
Hank Aaron
better.... its much easier on the eyes.... (probably because there usually
isn't any content).... Im sure with over 40 years of experience you should
be able to deduct something for us... I mean, I only have around 15 years
in.... so, you beat me...
JJ wrote in message <385F98...@no.net>...
prozac 625
me nothing let!!!!
"Hank Aaron" <jeffhe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:83ooa6$ji4$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...