New Crystal Swap Page!!
Brian Carling
QUARTZ CRYSTALS ARE ALIVE AND WELL!
Check it out!! The first is for trading with other hams:
http://www.mnsinc.com/bry/xtalpage.htm
Want to sell some rocks or buy some?
Let me know and I will put your ad on there too!
Also, this one is a list of many many suppliers worldwide!
http://www.mnsinc.com/bry/mega/xtals.htm
Great stuff - enjoy!
Brian Carling
The Boneyard Bluebook is BACK (well kinda!)
Are you curious about the value of your boatanchors?
Not sure what you should pay for a KWM-2 this year?
Try consulting the BONEYARD BLUEBOOK available on-line at:
http://www.mnsinc.com/bry/ham/boneyard.htm
It's just getting going! I am going to add a lot more soon.
If you see any BA brands that I misse dout, please let me know!
73 de AF4K - Bry
David Stockton
Brian Carling wrote:
>
> QUARTZ CRYSTALS ARE ALIVE AND WELL!
>
> Check it out!! The first is for trading with other hams:
>
1) Using a receiver to monitor frequency while grinding is fact. It's
what commercial manufacturers have done as a rough monitor of their
processing. The freq seen this way is affected by the lapping machine,
the pressure and the density of the abrasive slurry, so some empirical
correction factors need to be made.
2) commercial Xtal lapping machines have planetary "Spirograph" plates
with holes to take the quartz. Abrasive slurry is added and a weighted
plate sits on top to provide controlled pressure.
3) Xtal manufacturers have proprietary recipes for choosing face
profiling, disc diameters and deposited electrode dimensions and
thicknesses that they've found minimise spurious modes, favour specific
overtones etc etc. Some of these "designs" are good for specific
purposes only over surprisingly small frequency ranges.
4) Cleanliness is important, so is getting the faces parallel. A very
high degree of surface smoothness is necessary to get decent activity.
Microscopic scores in the surface are the seeds of what you could think
of as wounds in the crystal lattice. Good polishing, often finished by
hand with an amazingly fine abrasive is used for xtals that need to go
in low phase noise oscillators.
5) Deposited electrodes make much tighter coupling with the quartz
resonator, and the size of the elements is a lot smaller in modern
xtals, so the circuits that worked well tith the old FT243 era
xtals, and what works with current types are quite different. few modern
devices would survive the levels that some old circuits used to run at.
I've been collecting xtals for 25 years, I must have a few
thousand. I've been building my own filters for some time, see Wes
Hayward's "Intro to RF design" for a good text with free software...
I've also been professionally involved in special low noise xtal
oscillator development.
Cheers
David GM4ZNX
Brian Carling
Thank you David - reminds me of my old days working at CATHODEON
CRYSTALS in Linton, Cambridgeshire....
There is a write-up on my web page. If you don't mind I will add your
rather well written remarks - Bry, G3XLQ
For some reason, around Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:32:15 +0000, David
Stockton <david_s...@hp.com> wrote:
O/: Brian Carling wrote:
O/: >
O/: > QUARTZ CRYSTALS ARE ALIVE AND WELL!
O/: >
O/: > Check it out!! The first is for trading with other hams:
O/: >
O/:
O/:
O/:
O/: 1) Using a receiver to monitor frequency while grinding is
fact. It's
O/: what commercial manufacturers have done as a rough monitor of
their
O/: processing. The freq seen this way is affected by the lapping
machine,
O/: the pressure and the density of the abrasive slurry, so some
empirical
O/: correction factors need to be made.
O/:
O/: 2) commercial Xtal lapping machines have planetary
"Spirograph" plates
O/: with holes to take the quartz. Abrasive slurry is added and a
weighted
O/: plate sits on top to provide controlled pressure.
O/:
O/: 3) Xtal manufacturers have proprietary recipes for choosing
face
O/: profiling, disc diameters and deposited electrode dimensions and
O/: thicknesses that they've found minimise spurious modes, favour
specific
O/: overtones etc etc. Some of these "designs" are good for specific
O/: purposes only over surprisingly small frequency ranges.
O/:
O/: 4) Cleanliness is important, so is getting the faces parallel.
A very
O/: high degree of surface smoothness is necessary to get decent
activity.
O/: Microscopic scores in the surface are the seeds of what you could
think
O/: of as wounds in the crystal lattice. Good polishing, often
finished by
O/: hand with an amazingly fine abrasive is used for xtals that need
to go
O/: in low phase noise oscillators.
O/:
O/: 5) Deposited electrodes make much tighter coupling with the
quartz
O/: resonator, and the size of the elements is a lot smaller in modern
O/: xtals, so the circuits that worked well tith the old FT243 era
O/: xtals, and what works with current types are quite different. few
modern
O/: devices would survive the levels that some old circuits used to
run at.
O/:
O/:
O/: I've been collecting xtals for 25 years, I must have a few
O/: thousand. I've been building my own filters for some time, see Wes
O/: Hayward's "Intro to RF design" for a good text with free
software...
O/: I've also been professionally involved in special low noise xtal
O/: oscillator development.
O/:
O/:
O/: Cheers
O/: David GM4ZNX
Brian Carling
David Stockton
Brian Carling wrote:
>
> Thank you David - reminds me of my old days working at CATHODEON
> CRYSTALS in Linton, Cambridgeshire....
>
> There is a write-up on my web page. If you don't mind I will add your
> rather well written remarks - Bry, G3XLQ
You're welcome.
Cathodeon did some excellent notes on crystal parameters etc. I
still use them as the best reference in this area. I've still got one of
those typical parameter calculating cardboard "sliderules". Someone
mutilated, um, sorry, "converted" our Cathodeon PI-network test adaptor
for use with a 1-port Z measurement and I had to buy a replacement when
I next needed some serious measurements done and discovered that its
innards had been ripped out. From a customer's viewpoint, one of the
best crystal companies just vanished without any form of explanation.
SEI have shut down as well, now, so the quartz industry isn't what it
used to be, I suppose.
Cheers
David GM4ZNX
c.c.t...@12.killspam.us.com
Works the other way too, manufacturers of metal deposition eg sputtering
equipment use (or used) the change in frequency of a sacrificial crystal
as a thickness monitor.
Stephen
David Stockton (david_s...@hp.com) wrote:
Douglas Dwyer
In article <34F152...@hp.com>, David Stockton
<david_s...@hp.com> writes
>Brian Carling wrote:
>>
>> Thank you David - reminds me of my old days working at CATHODEON
>> CRYSTALS in Linton, Cambridgeshire....
>>
>> There is a write-up on my web page. If you don't mind I will add your
>> rather well written remarks - Bry, G3XLQ
>
>
> You're welcome.
>
> Cathodeon did some excellent notes on crystal parameters etc. I
>still use them as the best reference in this area. I've still got one of
>those typical parameter calculating cardboard "sliderules". Someone
>mutilated, um, sorry, "converted" our Cathodeon PI-network test adaptor
>for use with a 1-port Z measurement and I had to buy a replacement when
>I next needed some serious measurements done and discovered that its
>innards had been ripped out. From a customer's viewpoint, one of the
>best crystal companies just vanished without any form of explanation.
>SEI have shut down as well, now, so the quartz industry isn't what it
>used to be, I suppose.
>
> Cheers
> David GM4ZNX
are issued by Telequarz in Ger. Their agents in the UK are Webster
electronics.
The only large crystal manufacturer in the UK now is C-Mac in Harlow
Essex who are offering a quick small quantity service (dont know how
much it costs )
Douglas Dwyer Frequency Precision Ltd.
Leon Heller
In article <34F152...@hp.com>, David Stockton
<david_s...@hp.com> writes
>Brian Carling wrote:
>>
>> Thank you David - reminds me of my old days working at CATHODEON
>> CRYSTALS in Linton, Cambridgeshire....
>>
>> There is a write-up on my web page. If you don't mind I will add your
>> rather well written remarks - Bry, G3XLQ
>
>
> You're welcome.
>
> Cathodeon did some excellent notes on crystal parameters etc. I
>still use them as the best reference in this area. I've still got one of
>those typical parameter calculating cardboard "sliderules". Someone
>mutilated, um, sorry, "converted" our Cathodeon PI-network test adaptor
>for use with a 1-port Z measurement and I had to buy a replacement when
>I next needed some serious measurements done and discovered that its
>innards had been ripped out. From a customer's viewpoint, one of the
>best crystal companies just vanished without any form of explanation.
>SEI have shut down as well, now, so the quartz industry isn't what it
>used to be, I suppose.
IQD has some very useful info on crystals and crystal oscillators in
their data book.
Leon
--
Leon Heller: le...@lfheller.demon.co.uk http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk
Amateur Radio Callsign G1HSM Tel: +44 (0) 118 947 1424
See http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk/dds.htm for details of my AD9850
DDS system. See " "/diy_dsp.htm for a simple DIY DSP ADSP-2104 system.
Douglas Dwyer
In article <34F152...@hp.com>, David Stockton
<david_s...@hp.com> writes
>Brian Carling wrote:
>>
>> Thank you David - reminds me of my old days working at CATHODEON
>> CRYSTALS in Linton, Cambridgeshire....
>>
>> There is a write-up on my web page. If you don't mind I will add your
>> rather well written remarks - Bry, G3XLQ
>
>
> You're welcome.
>
> Cathodeon did some excellent notes on crystal parameters etc. I
>still use them as the best reference in this area. I've still got one of
>those typical parameter calculating cardboard "sliderules". Someone
>mutilated, um, sorry, "converted" our Cathodeon PI-network test adaptor
>for use with a 1-port Z measurement and I had to buy a replacement when
>I next needed some serious measurements done and discovered that its
>innards had been ripped out. From a customer's viewpoint, one of the
>best crystal companies just vanished without any form of explanation.
>SEI have shut down as well, now, so the quartz industry isn't what it
>used to be, I suppose.
>
> David GM4ZNX
I believe that C-Mac (now privately owned by a Canadian and one time
STC / ITT crystals Harlow) has taken over the employees and product line
that was previously SEI and have rehoused in a new purpose built factory
the C-Mac are now offering quick small quantity supplies from this new
site.
Douglas Dwyer
Arthur R Howard
HMMMM,while I suppose not absolute pricision work,the way I do it is with a
flat diamond impregnated knife sharpener,Be careful its quick
Bry
For some reason, around Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:59:28 -0500, Arthur R
Howard <mtn...@ncia.net> wrote:
O/: HMMMM,while I suppose not absolute pricision work,the way I do it
is with a
O/: flat diamond impregnated knife sharpener,Be careful its quick
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
(Peels of derisive laafter, Bruce!)
David Stockton
Douglas Dwyer wrote:
>
> I believe that C-Mac (now privately owned by a Canadian and one time
> STC / ITT crystals Harlow) has taken over the employees and product line
> that was previously SEI and have rehoused in a new purpose built factory
> the C-Mac are now offering quick small quantity supplies from this new
> site.
> Douglas Dwyer
Ah! I knew that what once was the xtal arm of ITT plant was still
on the go, but didn't know their new name. I certainly didn't know that
the folk from SEI had moved there. I suppose Dave Standring and Ron
Pallister must have retired some time ago.
Taking a scan over my drawers full of crystals will reveal roughly
equal numbers marked ITT, SEI and CCL.
Does anyone know what happened to the mag cores side of SEI? that
power meter I did for the G-QRP club used a couple of their toroids.
Cheers
David GM4ZNX
Douglas Dwyer
In article <34F6CF...@hp.com>, David Stockton
<david_s...@hp.com> writes
>I certainly didn't know that
>the folk from SEI had moved there
but I believe the new plant for the old SEI buisness is still close to
their old site.
Douglas Dwyer Frequency Precision Ltd. I design/advise on Xtal osc TCXO OCXO
SAWc etc Reply via demon or 10150...@compuserve.com phone/fax:
+44(0)1837810590 http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Frequency_Precision/
Douglas Dwyer
>on the go, but didn't know their new name. I certainly didn't know that
>the folk from SEI had moved there. I suppose Dave Standring and Ron
>Pallister must have retired some time ago.
>
> Taking a scan over my drawers full of crystals will reveal roughly
>equal numbers marked ITT, SEI and CCL.
Whilst we all lament the loss of Cathodeon and SEI in many ways the
biggest loss is HP crystals / oscillators I notice that the 105? OCXO
now changes hands at a premium price and someone suggested scrapping old
HP counters to get the OCXO. Whilst with HP Don Hammond was one fo the
few who could visualise Quartz temperature coefficients/ for 2
simultaneous quartz angle of cut orientations. He also was responsible
for the LC cut that had significant advantages over platinum for
temperature measurement another instrument greatly missed..
The contraction of the UK quartz buisness has been going on for some
time SEI incorporated the technology that came from Marconi Hackbridge
where I did the first? low power TO5 oscillator within a vacuum for
insulation.
Richard Karlquist
In article <n8$EiJAq6$90E...@ddwyer.demon.co.uk>,
Douglas Dwyer <ddw...@ddwyer.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Whilst we all lament the loss of Cathodeon and SEI in many ways the
>biggest loss is HP crystals / oscillators I notice that the 105? OCXO
>now changes hands at a premium price and someone suggested scrapping old
>HP counters to get the OCXO. Whilst with HP Don Hammond was one fo the
>few who could visualise Quartz temperature coefficients/ for 2
>simultaneous quartz angle of cut orientations. He also was responsible
>for the LC cut that had significant advantages over platinum for
>temperature measurement another instrument greatly missed..
HP is still making quartz oscillators and crystals. The 10544
OCXO was replaced 20 years ago with the vastly superior 10811.
The 10811 uses the doubly rotated SC cut, which was invented
here, but not by Don Hammond, rather Jack Kusters. Don does
get credit for being the founder of our quartz operation.
As you say, it is worthwhile to save OCXO's from scrapped
counters. (Incidentally, old ones are better than new ones
because they age less, in general). We have recently begun
production of the E1938A OCXO, with much better stability than
the 10811. For details, see my technical papers in the
proceedings of the 1997 IEEE Frequency Control Symposium. (Please
don't ask me to email these papers; we're not set up to do that.
However, we can snail mail hard copies to people seriously
interested ). We don't sell any oscillators on an OEM basis
at this time. However, you can probably order a single unit
as a replacement part for the product it is used in.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Hewlett Packard Santa Clara Division
rka...@scd.hp.com or ri...@area.com (home)
Bry_AF4K
HP is doing a really good job of keeping it secret if they DO sell
crystals!
Any chance I could get an address and phone number for the appropriate
HP office that sells crystals?
Thanks - Bry
For some reason, around 2 Mar 1998 23:56:01 GMT, rka...@scd.hp.com
(Richard Karlquist) wrote:
O/: In article <n8$EiJAq6$90E...@ddwyer.demon.co.uk>,
O/: Douglas Dwyer <ddw...@ddwyer.demon.co.uk> wrote:
O/: >
O/: >Whilst we all lament the loss of Cathodeon and SEI in many ways
the
O/: >biggest loss is HP crystals / oscillators I notice that the 105?
OCXO
O/: >now changes hands at a premium price and someone suggested
scrapping old
O/: >HP counters to get the OCXO. Whilst with HP Don Hammond was one
fo the
O/: >few who could visualise Quartz temperature coefficients/ for 2
O/: >simultaneous quartz angle of cut orientations. He also was
responsible
O/: >for the LC cut that had significant advantages over platinum for
O/: >temperature measurement another instrument greatly missed..
O/:
O/: HP is still making quartz oscillators and crystals. The 10544
O/: OCXO was replaced 20 years ago with the vastly superior 10811.
O/: The 10811 uses the doubly rotated SC cut, which was invented
O/: here, but not by Don Hammond, rather Jack Kusters. Don does
O/: get credit for being the founder of our quartz operation.
O/: As you say, it is worthwhile to save OCXO's from scrapped
O/: counters. (Incidentally, old ones are better than new ones
O/: because they age less, in general). We have recently begun
O/: production of the E1938A OCXO, with much better stability than
O/: the 10811. For details, see my technical papers in the
O/: proceedings of the 1997 IEEE Frequency Control Symposium. (Please
O/: don't ask me to email these papers; we're not set up to do that.
O/: However, we can snail mail hard copies to people seriously
O/: interested ). We don't sell any oscillators on an OEM basis
O/: at this time. However, you can probably order a single unit
O/: as a replacement part for the product it is used in.
O/:
O/: Rick Karlquist N6RK
O/: Hewlett Packard Santa Clara Division
O/: rka...@scd.hp.com or ri...@area.com (home)
David Stockton
Richard Karlquist wrote:
> We have recently begun
> production of the E1938A OCXO, with much better stability than
The IEEE version ought to be available via any library. I've just got
my hands on a volume of copies of papers presented at an HP internal
symposium held in Idaho in 1996, and voila! there is Rick's paper.
(sometimes interesting things take surprising amounts of time to
percolate around organisations).
I'm impressed with this thing. This is very clearly not the sort of
circuitry that could have been arrived at intuitively. Intuitively it
looks like it ought to decompose into an attempt to lift oneself by the
bootstraps, and have all the putative benefits cancel out and vanish.
Only by following through the derivation from an oscillator corrected by
a lock-in loop surrounding a crystal-bridge notch filter, and following
the network synthesis maths, can it be seen that there is a genuine net
benefit. This sort of item can only be invented by someone with either
an amazing amount of perseverence to fold a concept through several
transformations, (or by someone with a strangely warped mind!)
Cheers
David
Richard Karlquist
In article <34ff24f7...@news.mnsinc.com>,
Bry_AF4K <b...@NOSPAM.mnsinc.com> wrote:
>HP is doing a really good job of keeping it secret if they DO sell
>crystals!
>
>Any chance I could get an address and phone number for the appropriate
>HP office that sells crystals?
>
>Thanks - Bry
Quoting my own posting:
>For some reason, around 2 Mar 1998 23:56:01 GMT, rka...@scd.hp.com
>(Richard Karlquist) wrote:
>
>O/: HP is still making quartz oscillators and crystals. The 10544
<snip>
>O/: interested ). We don't sell any oscillators on an OEM basis
>O/: at this time. However, you can probably order a single unit
>O/: as a replacement part for the product it is used in.
>O/:
>O/: Rick Karlquist N6RK
As I said, we are *making* oscillator and crystals (for internal
use) but don't officially *sell* them separately. If you want a
crystal, you would have to cannibalize an oscillator, as
oscillators are the lowest level replacement part. Since we've
made over 100,000 10811's, there should be plenty of used ones
around. But then why would you want just a crystal anyway?
Rick Karlquist N6RK
HP Santa Clara Division
rka...@scd.hp.com