advantages of cable lacing?
alan...@yahoo.com
Is there anything that a laced cable-bundle does better than a
tie-wrapped cable-bundle?
Tim Wescott
Feed through a round tube.
Look good.
Lacing is still alive and well, it's used for many harnesses in
aerospace equipment, although tie-wrap is being used as well.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
John Kunkel
<alan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1105206130.3...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> cable lacing... a lost art.
>
> Is there anything that a laced cable-bundle does better than a
> tie-wrapped cable-bundle?
I don't know about "does better" but it sure looks good.
My background is in aviation maintenance and I laced the wires in a street
rod years ago; very labor intensive but I got some comments on it from those
had never seen it done. IMO it looks better in bundles where the wire is all
the same color, the various colored wire commonly used in automotive
applications doesn't look as good laced.
w_tom
failure due to constant vibration (ie automotive). Also the
lacing can hold cable together over long distances without
compressing insulation too tightly at the nylon ty wrapped.
Missing information is the environment for that cable. Looks
really have little to due with why things are done.
Furthermore, sometimes a better looking (cleaner) installation
can make things electrically worse.
CJT
Lacing might contribute a little extra strength in the long direction.
Plus, as others have noted, it looks better.
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
Matt Whiting
I think it looks nicer, but functionally I don't believe there is any
difference. Both methods keep the wires neat and organized.
Matt
Phil
"w_tom" <w_t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41E02BAE...@hotmail.com...
Tie-wrapping can also turn a bundle of RF cables into a bundle of RF
filters!
CJT
... and make crosstalk more of an issue.
NSM
|
| Is there anything that a laced cable-bundle does better than a
| tie-wrapped cable-bundle?
Don't overlook spiral wrapping.
N
Floyd L. Davidson
That is true... *if* both are done correctly.
However, the usual poor job of lacing will have few if any
negative effects, while a poor job of using tie-wraps can
1) put crimps in the cables, 2) literally break wires, and
3) leave some very sharp edges that can slice up hands that
handle the bundle years into the future.
Hence, if the craftperson knows what they're doing... lacing is
pretty and tie-wrapping is easy. If they don't really know the
difference, lacing is safer.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@barrow.com
Blueskies
>
> Is there anything that a laced cable-bundle does better than a
> tie-wrapped cable-bundle?
>
Less cut knuckles.
Less expensive?
Lighter?
Matt Whiting
How is tie wrapping any worse than lacing in this regard?
Matt
w_tom
characteristic impedance is changed where ty wrap pressure has
changed dimensions of cable.
Phil
> > How is tie wrapping any worse than lacing in this regard?
> >
> > Matt
"w_tom" <w_t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41E050E6...@hotmail.com...
> Ty wrap, for example, a coaxial cable. Now wire's
> characteristic impedance is changed where ty wrap pressure has
> changed dimensions of cable.
>
That is the answer indeed.
Applying tie wraps on a coaxial cable with a copper braid - even without
exaggerating the pressure - precisely every 20 cm or so over tens of meters
makes great filters.
I suppose lacing allows a milder treatment for RF cables.
Phil
Sam Goldwasser
> alan...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > cable lacing... a lost art.
> > Is there anything that a laced cable-bundle does better than a
> > tie-wrapped cable-bundle?
> >
>
> Lacing might contribute a little extra strength in the long direction.
>
> Plus, as others have noted, it looks better.
And, you don't get flesh wounds from the cut ends of nylon cable ties. :)
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html
Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
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Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
Gregg
exposure or vacuum tube chassis), I belive a laced bundle will outlive a
tie strapped bundle. Also more economical - have you seen the prices of
zip-ties that can handle the environmental extremes of good ol' lacing?
EEEK!
--
Gregg t3h g33k
"Ratings are for transistors....tubes have guidelines"
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
I think the advantage of lacing here is that the loops around the bundle
are held in place along the length of the bundle. With tie wraps, more
pressure is needed to keep them from slipping over time.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Where am I going, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Matt Whiting
You don't have to apply 50 lbs of tension to the tie wrap! :-)
Matt
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee
says...
Indeed there is a difference, notably in the aviation world.
Look inside the avionics bay of a commercial jet sometime. Come to
think of it, look at the innards of any piece of older avionics gear
that uses point-to-point wiring instead of, or in addition to, a printed
circuit backplane. What you'll see is the absence of tie-wraps, and an
abundance of laced cable harnesses.
I used to work at Boeing, and I had some friends in the Wire
Design group. I asked about this very question once. I was told that
tie-wraps are not favored for two reasons.
(1) If the tension on the tie-wrap is too high, it can crush
fragile coaxial cables.
(2) It's much easier to damage wire insulation under tie-wraps in
a high-vibration environment. Lacing twine is nowhere near as sharp
along its edges, and thus does not nick or cut said insulation.
Keep the peace(es).
--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
NSM
"Matt Whiting" <whi...@chilitech.net> wrote in message
news:crpvl...@enews4.newsguy.com...
| > Matt Whiting wrote:
| >
| >>How is tie wrapping any worse than lacing in this regard?
| >>
| >>Matt
|
| You don't have to apply 50 lbs of tension to the tie wrap! :-)
|
| Matt
I pull them up till they break then loosen them two clicks.
Or else I pull them up as tight as they'll go then add another 50 lbs.
N
Len Over 21
<Spammers...@dev.null> writes:
>In article <crp9t...@enews4.newsguy.com>, whi...@chilitech.net
>says...
>
>> alan...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > cable lacing... a lost art.
>> >
>> > Is there anything that a laced cable-bundle does better than a
>> > tie-wrapped cable-bundle?
>> >
>>
>> I think it looks nicer, but functionally I don't believe there is any
>> difference. Both methods keep the wires neat and organized.
>
> Indeed there is a difference, notably in the aviation world.
>
> Look inside the avionics bay of a commercial jet sometime. Come to
>think of it, look at the innards of any piece of older avionics gear
>that uses point-to-point wiring instead of, or in addition to, a printed
>circuit backplane. What you'll see is the absence of tie-wraps, and an
>abundance of laced cable harnesses.
>
> I used to work at Boeing, and I had some friends in the Wire
>Design group. I asked about this very question once. I was told that
>tie-wraps are not favored for two reasons.
Ahem...Boeing is not necessarily a good source for wire bundles
that are "safe." See the NTSB report on the air liner that blew up
just outside of NYC over the bay...especially the part investigating
wire bundles going through a fuselange gas tank.
On the other hand, military avionics has used waxed nylon cord
(usually dyed black) and made under a MIL SPEC since the 1950s,
prinicipally because it was a neat, cheap way to bundle up wires
that were not otherwise clamped together.
Lots of folks use tie-wraps (trade name of one is "Ty-rap") but
invariably use sizes way too big for the purpose. There's a MIL
SPEC for that, too, if anyone bothers to look it up.
I bought a package of 100 Ty-Raps at DoItCenters couple months ago
to hold up an outside planter's drip irrigation tubing to an aluminum
awning. Tubing is very soft, about 1/4" diameter. 8-inch tie wraps,
standard white nylon material. No problem. No stoppages, no
damages, but didn't try to put a full arm's strength into completing the
tie. :-).
> (1) If the tension on the tie-wrap is too high, it can crush
>fragile coaxial cables.
Yeah, right. :-) Crushing RG-8? :-) How about semi-rigid SMA
coax? :-)
I can't see, nor haven't seen anyplace that either tie-wraps or laces
up coax cable of any size/type. Clamping with cushioned clamps,
yes.
> (2) It's much easier to damage wire insulation under tie-wraps in
>a high-vibration environment. Lacing twine is nowhere near as sharp
>along its edges, and thus does not nick or cut said insulation.
Not necessarily true. Any tied/laced bundle of wires can be damaged
by doing it at the wrong place with hi-g shock/vibration. I've seen
improper lacing damage wire bundles (nylon-jacketed PVC, MIL SPEC
for aircraft) just by the wrong operator's technique. I've seen tie-wrap
bundles survive horrible hi-g vibration (in excess of 0.06 inch DA)...and
some that failed a single 10g shock drop.
Nicely done lacing can be a neato show-job that could pass QA with
flying colors. That's its main attraction: Looking good.
If there's to be some reasonably guaranteed, actual protection, then
WEAVE lacing cord all around the bundle and make it super-neat
looking. Distribution of tension quite even over all wires. Can cost a
small fortune for a weaving machine plus all the spindles of lacing cord,
though. Great way to make cable break-outs! :-)
Waxed nylon lacing cord is great for spot-tying small Teflon-insulated
wire bundles. A 25 W iron can do the cut-offs and also melt the edges
in the same operation.
Electrons, fields and waves don't always go along with human esthetic
tastes of "neatness." :-)
John Moriarity
> (usually dyed black) and made under a MIL SPEC since the 1950s,
> prinicipally because it was a neat, cheap way to bundle up wires
> that were not otherwise clamped together.
Here's my take on this (I laced a lot of wires
in the 1950s).
Wiring *harnesses* were made to facilitate
interconnection in equipment. Boards of
plywood with a drawing of the harness glued
on were the pattern, and finishing nails used
as guides for the wires. Wires were laid into
this guide according to a printed list. These
wires were usually pre-stripped and tinned.
Then the wires were soldered to connectors
when appropriate, and finally it was laced up.
This served both to constrain the wires, and
to make the harness easier to handle while
it was installed in the equipment. The stitches
or knots had to be done precisely according
to a MIL-Spec. It wasn't a lot of fun, and I
can remember rush jobs where everybody
from the lowest technician (me) to the engineering
manager worked long hours to make those
harnesses! Sure looked nice when it was done!
BTW, we only used white waxed nylon.
73, John - K6QQ
Robert Murray
Slip'er
veed...@isp.com
I've never heard of anyone slicing their hand open on lacing but I've
seen some serious lacerations from the cut-ends of tie-wrap.
If you've never done it, give it a try. Even if you don't use it,
it's a handy skill to have in your warbag.
-R.S.Hoover
NSM
"Slip'er" <cjhi...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:8w4Ed.47830$8e5.10565@fed1read07...
| Okay, what does lacing look like? I've never noticed it...
Looks like a sausage wrapped in string. The string may be waxed string (old
style) or small diameter plastic tubing.
N
John G
>
>
--
John G
Wot's Your Real Problem?
Palindr☻me
RS Components ( rswww.com) have it under part number 554-080
and describe it as: "A strong and flexible rayon-cored PVC
string for all ‘cable-forming’ and similar applications.
Dia. 0·75 mm. Breaking strain 4·5 kg (10 lb).
Colour: Black."
The start and finish knots, as well as the intermediate
ones, are very specific and designed so that the cord will
not work loose or the knots move on the cable assembly.
Laced "Commercial" wiring looms are normally assembled on a
make-up board which has the position of every knot clearly
defined along the length of the loom - so each wiring loom
turns out identical.
Once you are taught how to lace, you don't forget. Probably
something to do with the instructor cutting the whole lacing
off the loom for a single knot incorrectly positioned,
tensioned or done - leaving you to do the whole job again,
and again and again.
It didn't used to pay to be "the" female apprentice as
females are supposed to have nimbler fingers, a greater
attention to detail and more patience for doing mundane
repetitive work. So, whereas the guys could get away with a
half-assed job, I got to see the same loom time and time
again... Or it could just be I missed out that bit of the
genes...
--
Sue
phil-new...@ipal.net
| cable lacing... a lost art.
Links for cable lacing:
How-to:
http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/
Pictures:
http://brucehowes.com/cable_lacing.htm
Products:
http://www.tecratools.com/pages/telecom/80170.html
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Moffett
>
> Okay, what does lacing look like? I've never noticed it...
Look at pages 3 and 4:
Ken Moffett
>
> Okay, what does lacing look like? I've never noticed it...
Look at pages 3 and 4:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/300/pdf/4b-ch11_12.pdf
Henry Kolesnik
cables and can be impossible with ty wrapped cables.
--
73
Hank WD5JFR
<phil-new...@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:crr1u...@news1.newsguy.com...
one @home.com Ron
methods, procedures, & materials we used when I hired on with Western
Electric in the early 50s. In those days we used tons of #6 & #12 cord for
securing gazillions of feet of telephone cables inside the telephone company
switching central offices. We also got lots of blisters & calluses while
making the cabling look neat & secure. Cable mining? YUK!
Thanks!
Ron
<phil-new...@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:crr1u...@news1.newsguy.com...
Blueskies
"Henry Kolesnik" <kole...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:iHaEd.13517$iC4....@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
> No one has mentioned that cable mining is much safer and easier with laced cables and can be impossible with ty
> wrapped cables.
>
> --
>
> 73
> Hank WD5JFR
>
What is cable mining?
Floyd L. Davidson
New cables are laid into cable racks on top of old cables, and
the old ones that are no longer used are just cut off where they
enter the cable rack and left in place. Eventually, of course,
the cable rack fills up with old unused cable.
So every decade or so some poor smucks get the job of removing
all old cables. And that... is cable mining.
It isn't fun and it isn't exciting (but if you get the cable it
might be profitable though).
And if any of the cable was put in with tie-wraps, you also get
your hands shredded from the sharp edges where the tie wraps
were cut off. That is bad enough if a proper tool is used, and
*far* worse if some dingbat has used snips to cut them.
Slip'er
I have never worked on aircraft. I am 37; young to some, ancient to my
kids.
Slip'er
Thanks.
Slip'er
Slip'er
shay
fault-finding broken wires etc it can be a bitch.
Have a look at this :
http://www.geocities.com/svxdc/AI-pics/254-11a-HarnAdapWrap.jpg
I find this better for dirty/oily environments or where there's a
chance of vibration. The the harnes is easly "moulded" to fit intricate
contours.
JeffM
direction.
>>Plus, as others have noted, it looks better.
>> CJT
>
>And, you don't get flesh wounds from the cut ends of nylon cable ties.
:)
> Sam Goldwasser
...after someone has cut them off with semi-flush dikes
or other inappropriate tool.
one @home.com Ron
and of course the new guys always start on the cable crew. Tough job, so I
soon learned how to get involved in 're-grade' of SxS. This got me out of
the cabling, and into a softer job. I never got into X-Bar, so had no
experience with 'troughs'. etc. A lot of PBX jobs, then hired on with the
telco in about 1960, went to COE Engineering in 1966, and retired from toll
equipment engineering in 1984. My calloused hands are now back to normal. I
still have a half-roll of #6 cord which I've saved and I hate to use because
then I'll be out of it <G>.
I'm now completely out of contact with those I worked with, so it is good to
know that I'm not the only one still alive.
Thanks for the walk down Memory Lane.
Ron
"Ross Herbert" <rher...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:0254u0tv3jujbhjtj...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 07:34:13 -0800, "Ron" <no one @home.com> wrote:
>
> >BOY! These 'How-To' websites certainly bring back memories. These are
the
> >methods, procedures, & materials we used when I hired on with Western
> >Electric in the early 50s. In those days we used tons of #6 & #12 cord
for
> >securing gazillions of feet of telephone cables inside the telephone
company
> >switching central offices. We also got lots of blisters & calluses
while
> >making the cabling look neat & secure. Cable mining? YUK!
> >
> >
> Ron, with SxS every cable run was intricately planned and the
> individual cables in a block had to occupy a pre-determined location
> in the block so that the cables would fall out at both ends without
> any cross-overs. It was a laborious task and perhaps you recall making
> up the block layout sketches and walking the cable route with the
> sketch in front of you and turning it in accordance with the twists
> and turns, just so that you could verify that you had every cable in
> the right location? Planning a cable block layout was a skill in those
> days. Cable recovery in step exchanges occurred rarely unless a major
> change was required and runway space was insufficient for the new run.
> When total overhead cable mesh and free run cabling came in during the
> 60's with crossbar installations the only cable lacing was at the
> equipment rack ends where the wires were formed into looms for
> distribution to the respective relayset terminating jacks. With many
> more cables required for crossbar the old block lacing methods were no
> longer suitable and the view of the overhead cabling in a crossbar
> exchange looked like spaghetti junction with cables about 2 feet deep
> at certain places. Nobody bothered about recovring the dead cables
> because it was almost impossible to do so. Only when these exchanges
> were pulled out in the 90's was any cable mining done.
cabledude
fom past and present.
Laced and cable tied are common.
cabledude
gfulton
"Bill Turner" <no...@nohow.com> wrote in message
news:2mr3u0t2i2cuabv8g...@4ax.com...> >Is there anything that a laced cable-bundle does better than a
> >tie-wrapped cable-bundle?
> ___________________________________________________________
>
> I'm sure the unions prefer lacing.
>
> --
> Bill, W6WRT
>
>
Unions had nothing to do with it. I remember a job a friend did at an
overhaul base on a Navy S2, (Grumman aircraft, if I remember right).
Had a government inspector walking around watching the work. My bud had
just spent most of two days lacing a long wire run inside the fuselage.
Beady eyed little inspector got his eyes about 3 inches from the lacing,
then took a tiny pair of sidecutters out of his shirt pocket and started
cutting every last lace. My bud yelled at him, "What the @#&( are you
doing?" Inspector says, "Wrong knot". Any of you old gray haired, (like
me), A&P's remember the specified knot? I can still tie it blindfolded. If
a particular aircraft had the wire runs to be laced in the standard practice
manual for that aircraft, then you, by damn, laced them. Did more than my
share on a few DC-6's.
Garrett Fulton
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee
@aol.com says...
> Ahem...Boeing is not necessarily a good source for wire bundles
> that are "safe." See the NTSB report on the air liner that blew up
> just outside of NYC over the bay...especially the part investigating
> wire bundles going through a fuselange gas tank.
I never claimed they were perfect. I was using my experiences and
observations as a supporting point.
> On the other hand, military avionics has used waxed nylon cord
> (usually dyed black) and made under a MIL SPEC since the 1950s,
> prinicipally because it was a neat, cheap way to bundle up wires
> that were not otherwise clamped together.
I have no doubt that the military came up with some sort of lacing
machine. ;-)
> I bought a package of 100 Ty-Raps at DoItCenters couple months ago
> to hold up an outside planter's drip irrigation tubing to an aluminum
> awning. Tubing is very soft, about 1/4" diameter. 8-inch tie wraps,
> standard white nylon material. No problem. No stoppages, no
> damages, but didn't try to put a full arm's strength into completing the
> tie. :-).
<snip remainder>
The reference to 'fragile' coaxial cables was made in regards to
the Teflon-jacketed stuff in use in aircraft, not conventional RG8 or
others. I should have clarified that a bit.
It was found that some types of insulation (notably Kapton) show a
greater sensitivity to arcing if they have been nicked or scored, even
slightly. Ty-wraps, if not properly used, are more likely to do this
than lacing, especially in a vibration environment. This is why they are
not generally favored for aircraft wire bundles.
While I agree that neatness was certainly one of the reasons, it
was not the only one.
I would be most interested to hear what anyone working in CURRENT
wire design on aircraft has to say about the subject.
Keep the peace(es).
--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"
ssparling
phil-new...@ipal.net
I've had to do that under computer room raised floors. New computers come
in before the old ones leave and cables get laid on top of existing cable.
When the oldest ones eventually do get decommissioned, the cables are at
the bottom and too hard to get out. Eventually they pile up. This was in
the mainframe days when a computer _system_ involved a "CPU" the size of
your living room, and a hundred washing machine size peripherals that
would fill up a large house, all on hundreds of 2 foot by 2 foot squares
sitting on a grid of poles and crossmembers. At one place I used to work
we decommissioned an entire machine room which was being converted to
office space. All the cables did have to be removed in that one, and
there were some interesting things found deep down. Mainframe cables
were quite large, BTW.
jakdedert
If you find these 'slicers' in cables which you must handle, you can usually
blunt the sharp edges by heating each with a lighter...or maybe a soldering
iron with an old tip. (Some high-quality cable ties resist melting.)
I once had to deal with a 100' cable which was completely cable tied. After
one time of coiling that monster, I went through the entire thing with a
cigarette lighter...
...no more sliced palms!
jak
Terry
> > You have never worked on aircraft and are very young.
>
> I have never worked on aircraft. I am 37; young to some, ancient to my
> kids.
>
Terry
females are supposed to have nimbler fingers, a greater
attention to detail and more patience for doing mundane
repetitive work. So, whereas the guys could get away with a
half-assed job, I got to see the same loom time and time
again... Or it could just be I missed out that bit of the
genes...
Sue
Sounds rough. Although I do recall having to tear out all the lacing for a
run of large guage black power cables because they 'should' (to meet
specification) have been laced with red twine and were not! IIRC we used a
waxed Irish lacing twine in at least two thicknesses, usually 'natural'
unless red or black was specified by the customer. The customer in the above
instance being the General Post Office, who at that time operated the United
Kingdom telephone system.
Until and even after approx 1953, each individual wire and the cable
covering fabric; often silk and wool insulated; with the cable ends dipped
in wax before individual wire stripping and terminating!
Then plastic insulated wire was introduced. Cable forms (harnesses) were
made and a girl sitting at a machine on a raised platform, that heated the
ends of the wires, operated it to 'hot strip' each wire (or group of wires)!
Respectable girl though she was she inevitably got nicknamed 'The hot
stripper'.
I do also recall in those days plastic insulated wire/cable was far from
perfect; there was a story about a large form (i.e. bundles of multiwire
cables, laced together in layers on a cable runway), that had been installed
near a warm air heating duct in a telephone switching centre. The many
cables slightly melted and fused together in a big slightly sticky mass.
Eventually wires migrated through the soft plastic and touched together.
Cor; what a mess that must have been!
Inevitably the stitching/lacing would then be immersed in the now fused to
gether plastic! Layers of cables still laced to each other and on the bottom
laced to the steel bars of the cable runway!
Wayne R.
it:
Lacing:
Pros:
Looks good - only if you know what you're doing.
Keeps old farts happy
Cord is cheap
The few tools required are cheap & low tech
Cons:
Can look crappy after cable/hand 'abrasion'
Lots of labor
Learning curve can be long
Consistency of appearance is difficult,across crews especially
Can cut jackets/hands during installation
Gooey mess from excess wax
Cut ends on floor are sticky
QC inspections can be irrational
TyWraps:
Pros:
Fast
Easy
Looks good - especially if you know what you're doing
Only a single tool (tensioner/cutter) needed
Can be *very* strong
Cons:
Traditionalists don't like it
Shouldn't do it without the right tool
Wrong tension settings can damage jackets/guts
Cut ends on floor are slippery
Clearly, a single, appropriate tool with tywraps makes their only real
problems go away (dykes & pliers are not the right tools for nylon
ties). And while cord is cheap, its labor costs are very high. For me,
there's no choice - tywraps make the most sense.
cabletieguy
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
> I do/have done a lot of both in telecom environments. Here's how I see
> it:
>
> Lacing:
> Pros:
> Looks good - only if you know what you're doing.
> Keeps old farts happy
> Cord is cheap
> The few tools required are cheap & low tech
> Cons:
> Can look crappy after cable/hand 'abrasion'
> Lots of labor
> Learning curve can be long
> Consistency of appearance is difficult,across crews especially
> Can cut jackets/hands during installation
> Gooey mess from excess wax
> Cut ends on floor are sticky
> QC inspections can be irrational
>
Since I find tie wraps user-unfriendly for cable that I actually have
to handle, but shrinking the whole thing together can be awkward, and
make for a very stiff assembly, I'm pleased to be reminded of cable
lacing.
I've laced several cable assemblies together now, using dental floss,
and that's accomplished exactly what I wanted.
73, doug
cvair...@tigerbyte.net
> TyWraps:
> Cons:
> Traditionalists don't like it
> Shouldn't do it without the right tool
> Wrong tension settings can damage jackets/guts
> Cut ends on floor are slippery
You forgot a couple of biggies on the cons of TyWraps
1. They are not compatable with any fuels or lubricants or hydraulic
fluids.
2. They do not survive well in enviroments that are high vibration or
those that see very low temps or temps over 100F.
3. They do not age well. They start getting brittle within a couple of
years unless they are in a stable office type enviroment.
4. They are totally incompatable with any small fiber F/O system. THey
either crush the fiber on install or provide a nice sharp edge for the
fiber to fracture against.
5. Cost....My one roll of lacing cord will do the same amount of cable
as several thousand TyWraps.
6. Work areas....I can do my ties in locations that you couldn't begin
to get a TyWrap gun into.
7. Lacing cord is a one size does it all. With TyWraps you have to size
them for the bundle size and tension that you need at each location.
Craig C.
cvair...@ev1.net
Jim Carriere
> Wayne R. wrote:
>
>>TyWraps:
>
>> Cons:
>> Traditionalists don't like it
>> Shouldn't do it without the right tool
>> Wrong tension settings can damage jackets/guts
>> Cut ends on floor are slippery
>
>
> You forgot a couple of biggies on the cons of TyWraps
>
> 1. They are not compatable with any fuels or lubricants or hydraulic
> fluids.
>
> 2. They do not survive well in enviroments that are high vibration or
> those that see very low temps or temps over 100F.
Not to be argumentative, I think these are all good points, but these
first two are not completely true. Tiewraps work fine under the hood
of a car. They can survive a small amount of oil, and the temp is
often easily over 100F.
Of course they don't last forever. As per your third point, they'll
get brittle and fall apart eventually. You just replace them before
that happens.
> 3. They do not age well. They start getting brittle within a couple of
> years unless they are in a stable office type enviroment.
<rest snipped>
I think the two best tools you can use, to avoid making them too
tight, are your fingers and your brain :)
Morgans
"Jim Carriere" <jimca...@yahoo.nospam>
>
> Not to be argumentative, I think these are all good points, but these
> first two are not completely true. Tiewraps work fine under the hood
> of a car. They can survive a small amount of oil, and the temp is
> often easily over 100F.
>
> Of course they don't last forever. As per your third point, they'll
> get brittle and fall apart eventually. You just replace them before
> that happens.
>
> > 3. They do not age well. They start getting brittle within a couple of
> > years unless they are in a stable office type enviroment.
>
> <rest snipped>
>
> I think the two best tools you can use, to avoid making them too
> tight, are your fingers and your brain :)
>
Alas, someone with some common sense!
Tie wraps not only will handle a small amount of oil, but will handle lots
of oil and heat! DAMHIK! <g>
In *some* places, you can't beat am occasional tie wrap. You just gotta
have common sense!
--
Jim in NC
Matt Whiting
Isn't dental floss a little "sharp" (small diameter) for lacing? I'd be
afraid of it cutting into the wires over time.
Matt
Matt Whiting
> Wayne R. wrote:
>
>>TyWraps:
>
>
>> Cons:
>> Traditionalists don't like it
>> Shouldn't do it without the right tool
>> Wrong tension settings can damage jackets/guts
>> Cut ends on floor are slippery
>
>
> You forgot a couple of biggies on the cons of TyWraps
>
> 1. They are not compatable with any fuels or lubricants or hydraulic
> fluids.
>
> 2. They do not survive well in enviroments that are high vibration or
> those that see very low temps or temps over 100F.
>
> 3. They do not age well. They start getting brittle within a couple of
> years unless they are in a stable office type enviroment.
I disagree with the above. I have used tiewraps in the engine
compartment of several cars and trucks I own (one that is now 11 years
old) and they have held up well to gas, oil, power steering fluid, etc.
They have seen temps from -20F to probably over 180F and are aging well.
> 4. They are totally incompatable with any small fiber F/O system. THey
> either crush the fiber on install or provide a nice sharp edge for the
> fiber to fracture against.
>
> 5. Cost....My one roll of lacing cord will do the same amount of cable
> as several thousand TyWraps.
Yes, good points.
> 6. Work areas....I can do my ties in locations that you couldn't begin
> to get a TyWrap gun into.
You don't have to use a gun, you can install them by hand, and for
sensitive cables in tight areas that is preferred anyway. Much less
chance of applying too much tension.
> 7. Lacing cord is a one size does it all. With TyWraps you have to size
> them for the bundle size and tension that you need at each location.
Matt
Wayne R.
plain nylon to UV-resistant to Teflon to stainless steel - and
everything in between. You're right, you have to make a good choice,
and have them when you need them. And a bad selection is expensive,
too.
I've only had polyester lacing cord in my hands, and have seen silk
stuff for book binding. I can't begin to believe that one-flavor
polyester cord is 'omnipotent' in the face of all the yuk and
harshness the world offers. What other materials are there? And where
can I get some?
I sorta addressed cost in my original list: Cord is cheap, but the
labor (time) costs can be way high. Tyes cost more (ok, can be a *lot*
more), but go in fast & easy.
And I'm sorry for that crack about the old farts, but you know what I
mean.
daestrom
<cvair...@tigerbyte.net> wrote in message
news:1105850202.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
One other one we've run into. Some brands/types of 'Ty-Wrap' use a small
metal clip in the blunt end to ratchet against the tong's rack. This little
metal clip can/has come out and become an FOD hazard. Ever try finding a
tiny 1/8 x 1/16 metal clip in a large FME (Foreign Material Exclusion) area?
Not at all fun.
daestrom
s falke
"Wayne R." <wruf...@KomKast.net> wrote...
> ...I can't begin to believe that one-flavor
> polyester cord is 'omnipotent' in the face of all the yuk and
> harshness the world offers. What other materials are there?
Has anyone mentioned not to chew on black-striped lacing cord? It is supposed
to be rat-poison "enhanced."
—s falke
cvair...@tigerbyte.net
fuel, 5606, diesel fuel, Hydrazine or anything else.
As to time, I can generally have my tie run and be tightening it by the
time you have selected the correct TyWrap to use.
Craig C.
cvair...@ev1.net
Andrew VK3BFA
already said. Lacing looks lovely, and is a skill used to distinguish
old techs from young techs, cable ties can cut cable, and can cut
fingers as well. Unless there is controlled tension in the cable tie
gun, pressure is too variable. Cable ties can start fires, especially
when someone puts then round a convenient sharp edged bracket which
then cuts into the conductor carrying current. Not nice - very
impressive, but not nice.
Lacing should be done with plastic solid core tubing, not waxed nylon
or string or anthing else that was used for lead sheath cables in 1930.
Phenomena known as "cold flow" where the lacing material can displace
the insulation of the bundle. A well done laced cable run is a thing
of beauty, and if dressed properly you can virtually trace a conductor
from one end to the other. It used to be a trade skill, along with
choosing the correct size hammer for "minor adjustments" Ah, the good
old days......
73 de VK3BFA Andrew
phil-new...@ipal.net
| Mmm, cant figure out this new format, so will let fly with probably
| already said. Lacing looks lovely, and is a skill used to distinguish
| old techs from young techs, cable ties can cut cable, and can cut
| fingers as well. Unless there is controlled tension in the cable tie
| gun, pressure is too variable. Cable ties can start fires, especially
| when someone puts then round a convenient sharp edged bracket which
| then cuts into the conductor carrying current. Not nice - very
| impressive, but not nice.
I use cable ties for a number of wires (usually power) inside PC's I build.
But one thing I do is make sure I offset the wires from the attached metal.
If the metal is at about a 90 degree angle, then I use 2 cable ties that
wrap each other. If the metal is parallel to the wiring, then 3 cable ties
are used. Lacing would not be very practical inside a PC unless it is part
of a designed manufacturing process where you would have a pre-built harness
or something.
Don Kelly
<phil-new...@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:csjr4...@news2.newsguy.com...
-------
Cable lacing was (and is?) common for control wiring in control panels etc.
in the power industry. In that case the signals involved were either 60Hz or
DC and electromechanical relays and meters were used. coupling between
circuits was a non-issue. However, with the advent of solid state devices,
coupling became a problem. One major manufacturer considered a "diode tester
to be a 15 ft lead to a switch or contactor cabled with a lead tied to the
diode. - Open the switch- blow the diode. Wiring was neat and elegant and
easy to follow. Circuit diagrams were accompanied by "back of panel"
diagrams of the wiring to facilitate maintenance/repairs.
Automotive wiring uses cables for a different purpose- pre-bundle the wires-
any jack ass can then push it into place and connect the red wire here, the
yellow wire there , etc. Cheap and easy. Maintenance and trouble shooting is
the customer's worry -particularly as faults generally appear after the
warranty expires (been there) and simply replacing the bundle after the
vehicle is built is not that easy.
In PC's etc, it appears that the aim is to cut down clutter- no more -no
less- Note that lacing is pretty well confined to the DC side of things
(+/-12V, +/-5V, Ground, etc.) - not signal lines.
--
Don Kelly
dh...@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer
Roy Lewallen
> -------
> Cable lacing was (and is?) common for control wiring in control panels etc.
> in the power industry. In that case the signals involved were either 60Hz or
> DC and electromechanical relays and meters were used. coupling between
> circuits was a non-issue. However, with the advent of solid state devices,
Reminds me of a horror story I heard at an EMC short course. There was a
problem with EMI getting in (or out -- I don't recall) of some equipmant
via the 60 Hz power line. So a filter was mounted somewhere in the
middle of the device where there was room, and the 60 Hz power was
routed through it. Went into production, where they neatly bundled and
laced the 60 Hz power leads with a bunch of other wires. The bundle was
routed along the side of the filter as it went by. The power leads broke
out of the bundle to connect to one side of the filter, and the leads on
the other side of the filter rejoined the bundle.
Roy Lewallen, W7EL
Lawrence Glickman
wrote:
Many low power circuits now use ribbon cables, and in some instances,
if you are not careful about what wire carries what signal, there can
be intermittent cross-talk which can really screw things up. I had 1
case in 10 years where an Engineer had to come over from Germany to
end up building a filter into a ribbon cable that carried a low
frequency pulse. It took him about a week to find the problem because
of its intermittency.
In fact, IIRC, the engineer ended up routing separate wires out of the
ribbon cable to keep the crosstalk out of them. The odd thing about
this case, is out of the hundreds and hundreds of similar machines
with similar circuitry, this was the only unit that had the problem.
It has been my observation that for pc boards and backplanes, ribbon
cable is the way to go, no lacing required. Which leads me to the
question of why automotive companies don't use it in the engine
compartment. It must have to do with the environmental conditions in
there, it isn't *rugged* enough to withstand the heat and abrasion.
Lg
Wes Stewart
[snip]
|Cable lacing was (and is?) common for control wiring in control panels etc.
|in the power industry. In that case the signals involved were either 60Hz or
|DC and electromechanical relays and meters were used. coupling between
|circuits was a non-issue. However, with the advent of solid state devices,
|coupling became a problem. One major manufacturer considered a "diode tester
|to be a 15 ft lead to a switch or contactor cabled with a lead tied to the
|diode. - Open the switch- blow the diode. Wiring was neat and elegant and
|easy to follow. Circuit diagrams were accompanied by "back of panel"
|diagrams of the wiring to facilitate maintenance/repairs.
At Hughes, we didn't do "lacing", but used "lacing cord" (flat, waxed,
nylon) by the mile. We used spot ties, a precursor to today's cable
ties. These were clove hitches around the wire bundle, secured with a
square knot. In the production (missile) area, the ends had to be
cut, but in the engineering and test equipment area, we would "neaten
things up" by melting the ends into the knot with a soldering iron.
Since all the wire was teflon insulated, the ties could be slid along
the wire bundles during construction. While still a technician, I
once wired a programmer for some TOW missile test equipment. This was
back when the highest level integrated circuit was a 7490 decade
counter. The unit was basically a timing generator that had four PC
board card cages, 30 cards per cage, 44 pins per board, six 72-pin
cable connectors and a 24-column x 48-row patch panel. Damn near
every pin was used. Timing sequences were determined by ANDing and
ORing signals together via the patch panel and then setting or
resetting J-K flip-flops. So there was a lot of redundant wiring,
ie. one card cage might have 30 identical NAND gate boards.
We used ten wire colors, same as the resistor code, and prided
ourselves on having every wire bundle identical throughout its length
and to its neighbor. Black wire next to the brown wire next to the
red wire.....