Tektronix SUCKS!!!!!
Frank Gilliland
my local dealership that they are required by contract to destroy every scope
which is traded in for a new Tektronix scope, regardless of age or condition. So
if you decide to trade in that old scope for a Tektronix, know ahead of time
that it is NOT going to end up in the hands of a ham, or of some kid learning
and experimenting in electronics on a tight budget like I was thir... er, twenty
years ago. No, Tektronix needs to raise their profits by destroying every used
scope they can get their greedy little hands on, regardless of who feels the
pinch!
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Brenda Ann
"Frank Gilliland" <spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net> wrote in message
news:qm20rvs80uqe4m407...@4ax.com...
> Tektronix is trying to manipulate the oscilloscope market. Today I learned
from
> my local dealership that they are required by contract to destroy every
scope
> which is traded in for a new Tektronix scope, regardless of age or
condition. So
> if you decide to trade in that old scope for a Tektronix, know ahead of
time
> that it is NOT going to end up in the hands of a ham, or of some kid
learning
> and experimenting in electronics on a tight budget like I was thir... er,
twenty
> years ago. No, Tektronix needs to raise their profits by destroying every
used
> scope they can get their greedy little hands on, regardless of who feels
the
> pinch!
>
Interesting, last I heard (and that was only a few weeks ago) the Tek
Country Store was still in business, selling their used trade-ins, among
other things. Could your dealer be blowing smoke up your behind?
Dave VanHorn
> Country Store was still in business, selling their used trade-ins, among
> other things. Could your dealer be blowing smoke up your behind?
The scope I'm using now was purchased as a used demo unit, at a significant
discount.
<$10k! :)
Frank Dresser
"Frank Gilliland" <spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net> wrote in message
news:qm20rvs80uqe4m407...@4ax.com...
learned from
> my local dealership that they are required by contract to destroy
every scope
> which is traded in for a new Tektronix scope, regardless of age or
condition. So
> if you decide to trade in that old scope for a Tektronix, know ahead
of time
> that it is NOT going to end up in the hands of a ham, or of some kid
learning
> and experimenting in electronics on a tight budget like I was thir...
er, twenty
> years ago. No, Tektronix needs to raise their profits by destroying
every used
> scope they can get their greedy little hands on, regardless of who
feels the
> pinch!
>
>
>
"Tucker Electronics is a proud reseller of New, Used and Refurbished
Tektronix Test and Measurement Instruments and we stock many late model
Tektronix Instruments. "
http://www.tucker.com/java/information/tek_splsh.jsp
There must be others. Tucker was at the top of the Google page when I
entered "new used tektronix oscilloscopes"
Frank Dresser
Larry Johnson
favors for you, they're in business to make money. Period.
Teletype Corp. used to do the same thing with used Teletype machines.
Motorola used to do the same with traded-in 2-way radios (I had a friend
who drove the truck to the crusher.)
That's the way it works, Frank....
LJ
Dr. Anton Squeegee
spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net says...
> Tektronix is trying to manipulate the oscilloscope market. Today I learned from
> my local dealership that they are required by contract to destroy every scope
> which is traded in for a new Tektronix scope, regardless of age or condition. So
<snip>
Do you have hard evidence of this, such as an official statement
from someone at Tektronix in authority to make such statements?
I think your local dealership is pulling your leg. I visited the
Tektronix company surplus store less than four months ago, and found a
generous assortment of older 7000 and 11000 series mainframes and plug-
ins, many of which were in perfectly usable condition.
Don't even get me started on the seemingly vast quantity of Tek
scopes and other such goodies that seem to be in constant availability
on the surplus side of things (hamfests, stores like Kaiser Technologies
in the Bay Area, etc.)
--
Dr. Anton Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, KC7GR)
kyrrin a/t bluefeathertech d-o=t c&o&m
Motorola Radio Programming & Service Available -
http://www.bluefeathertech.com/rf.html
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)
Steve
Tek scopes for about 30 years (!), and love to see kids, hobbyist,
and hams get their hands on them.
Realistically, 'scopes Tek gets in
on trade will be a very small percentage of the number out there, so
it should have little effect.
Steve
G.Beat
news:qm20rvs80uqe4m407...@4ax.com...
from
> my local dealership that they are required by contract to destroy every
scope
> which is traded in for a new Tektronix scope, regardless of age or
condition. So
> if you decide to trade in that old scope for a Tektronix, know ahead of
time
> that it is NOT going to end up in the hands of a ham, or of some kid
learning
> and experimenting in electronics on a tight budget like I was thir... er,
twenty
> years ago. No, Tektronix needs to raise their profits by destroying every
used
> scope they can get their greedy little hands on, regardless of who feels
the
> pinch!
<Troll check>
Please supply the name of this Tektronix dealer or distributor -
I will make a personal call - and then if verified to Tektronix.
G. Beat
Frank Gilliland
companies rely on their longstanding reputations as 'good guys'. The info I
received came from the GM of Radar, Inc. in Spokane. Whether the policy was
initiated by Radar or by Tektronix, or applies to any other brand, he didn't
say. What he -did- say was that he has had to send several dozen scopes the the
incinerator since this policy began not long ago -- and some nice ones, too.
Either way, it still sucks.
Dr. Anton Squeegee
spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net says...
> Yes, this is how business works, but that doesn't mean it works well, as many
> companies rely on their longstanding reputations as 'good guys'. The info I
> received came from the GM of Radar, Inc. in Spokane. Whether the policy was
> initiated by Radar or by Tektronix, or applies to any other brand, he didn't
> say. What he -did- say was that he has had to send several dozen scopes the the
> incinerator since this policy began not long ago -- and some nice ones, too.
>
> Either way, it still sucks.
Has to have been Radar's policy (and a stupid one it is, too). I
don't see Tek doing it because Where do you think they get so much of
their inventory for the company surplus store?
Larry Johnson
units used as test fixtures, etc. that wouldn't have much appeal to
end-user customers as much as to experimenters.
Frank Gilliland
<Spammers...@dev.null> wrote:
>In article <tsh0rv8tgvua3h0al...@4ax.com>,
>spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net says...
>
>> Yes, this is how business works, but that doesn't mean it works well, as many
>> companies rely on their longstanding reputations as 'good guys'. The info I
>> received came from the GM of Radar, Inc. in Spokane. Whether the policy was
>> initiated by Radar or by Tektronix, or applies to any other brand, he didn't
>> say. What he -did- say was that he has had to send several dozen scopes the the
>> incinerator since this policy began not long ago -- and some nice ones, too.
>>
>> Either way, it still sucks.
>
> Has to have been Radar's policy (and a stupid one it is, too). I
>don't see Tek doing it because Where do you think they get so much of
>their inventory for the company surplus store?
Is that a trick question?
Frank Dresser
"Dr. Anton Squeegee" <Spammers...@dev.null> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a19f522b...@192.168.42.131...
>
> Has to have been Radar's policy (and a stupid one it is, too). I
> don't see Tek doing it because Where do you think they get so much of
> their inventory for the company surplus store?
>
>
compitition to a new Tek scope, but it presents much more compitition to
the new scopes of the lower price manufacturers.
Frank Dresser
private
--exray--
schemes like this. You're right, Frank, a $500 used model isn't hardly
competition to their latest-greatest $20,000 model. Mr. Bean-Counter
would like to think they could eliminate such competition but odds are
Mr. Bean-Counter wouldn't know a o'scope if it bit him in the arse.
If Tek is really doing this nowadays the only purpose it serves is to
make them appear as knuckleheads.
One rather large electronic mfr that I used to deal with had an "outlet
store" where they sold the trade-ins, factory refurbs, etc. Basically a
scratch-and-dent outlet. Prices were only maybe 25% less than the good
stuff...the biggest advantage was not having to step thru the corporate
ordering nightmare spending days, if not weeks, playing phone tag with
some "account representative" who was the only person authorized to take
your order.
The outlet store made too much sense so they closed it.
-Bill
Alfred Carlson
think, I know better. My uncle (Warren K. Dallas) helped establish the
groundwork for a reputation since 1947, that prevails within Tektronix to this
day. Any doubts, read the book "Winning with People: The first 40 years of
Tektronix. I rest my case. 73 de Fred.
Dave VanHorn
> "Tucker Electronics is a proud reseller of New, Used and Refurbished
> Tektronix Test and Measurement Instruments and we stock many late model
> Tektronix Instruments. "
They certainly are proud of their gear!
Their prices are, IMHO, about 2-3x what they should be.
--exray--
I've never heard anybody say Tek was a "bad" company or made bad gear.
Tempramental, maybe, but not bad. But this day in time (since the book
came out) big corporations aren't run by the good guys like Warren K....
-Bill
RP Jones
to replace those new off seas plastic cheap ones one under warrantee.
I called them about a Tek 2232 and someone on the other end got all pissed
off, said call GTE for service ?
"Frank Gilliland" <spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net> wrote in message
news:qm20rvs80uqe4m407...@4ax.com...
Dave VanHorn
"RP Jones" <rpar...@verizon.NOSPAMnet> wrote in message
news:MI7sb.8866$bQ3....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
> Could it be they don't want to do anymore service, perhaps it cheaper just
> to replace those new off seas plastic cheap ones one under warrantee.
> I called them about a Tek 2232 and someone on the other end got all pissed
> off, said call GTE for service ?
I had quite the opposite result when I called them on an encoder failure on
my TDS-420a
They were very helpful, and the replacement encoder was surprisingly
inexpensive.
They took a few minutes to verify that we were ordering the right part,
because of an ambiguity in the part number, but it was resolved quickly.
The whole thing was less than $50 and I even got spare encoders at that
price, in case of a future failure.
Bob Liesenfeld
Frank Gilliland wrote:
> Tektronix is trying to manipulate the oscilloscope market.
Perhaps. However I know in some industries, the same thing is done to prevent
something like this happening:
Original owner of functioning, well cared for unit sells it at a flea market etc.
New owner modifies/breaks unit, then sells it to 3rd owner
3rd owner is dissatisfied and blames manufacturer, perhaps with little effect,
perhaps with significant damage to manufacturers reputation.
I know from first hand experience that this was the case with 2 well known 2 way
radio companies. If you were caught sneaking a trade-in out of the path of the
crusher, you got canned.
Larry Johnson
W7TI wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:40:03 GMT, Larry Johnson <lar...@teleport.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Frank - this is how big business works. They're not in business to do
> >favors for you, they're in business to make money. Period.
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> Not true. Like all businesses, Tek must please their customers while
> making money or soon there will be no customers. The trick is to strike
> the right balance. Tektronix has been in business for ~50 years now, so
> I'd say they are doing it right.
>
> --
> Bill, W7TI
>
> p.s. I'm an ex-employee, so grains of salt will be distributed as
> necessary.
private
I'm the one who made the comment about Tek. The place
sucks.
private
Shitty management, too. If you go back far enough
it was a good place.
I got the propaganda and it doesn't change a thing.
private
I was there training some of those fuckers.
gw
the last time frankenstein bought a scope it was $1200.00 new.....So
now he thinks the company sucks because he is a tight ass.
Larry Johnson
the stories by Wayne Green and Byron Kretzman about the machines that
used to go to the landfill. Same with Motorola - a few hams spoiled it
for everyone by reselling 2-way radio gear back into commercial service
after they had "promised" (and signed waivers) that the equipment would
be used only for ham radio use and not resold into commercial service.
Sometimes it's just cheaper in the long run to dispose of gear than try
to support it and lose a potential new equipment sale.....
LJ
Dave Holford wrote:
>
> When I applied for a used Teletype machine I only had to sign a waiver
> that it would never be put back in commercial service. I found out about
> the program from several friends who had also obtained used machines
> this way.
>
> Dave
Avery Fineman
writes:
>On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:40:03 GMT, Larry Johnson <lar...@teleport.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Frank - this is how big business works. They're not in business to do
>>favors for you, they're in business to make money. Period.
>
>_________________________________________________________
>
>Not true. Like all businesses, Tek must please their customers while
>making money or soon there will be no customers. The trick is to strike
>the right balance. Tektronix has been in business for ~50 years now, so
>I'd say they are doing it right.
>
>--
>Bill, W7TI
>
>p.s. I'm an ex-employee, so grains of salt will be distributed as
>necessary.
Bill, I've never worked for Tektronix. My personal oscilloscope is a
Philips 50 MHz dual-trace used demo unit bought at a fair deal from a
Philips representative in 1981. On the other hand, I've been very
much acquainted with their line of instruments since 1954 and can
say that their quality, maintainability, and holding-of-accuracy is
excellent. I can afford them for contract jobs...just can't afford them
for personal use.
The price of ALL electronics instruments has constantly gone up in
the last half century...the major reason probably in that the
performance and range and flexibility has also increased...which
leads to the various companies amortizing new instrument
development costs back to the buyers. Like TS for all those who
want high-performance goodies at Knight-Kit prices.
Len Anderson
retired (from regular hours) electronic engineer person
Pete KE9OA
They did the same thing with engineering units. I can't tell you how many
XTS-3000s went to the crusher.
Pete
Larry Johnson <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:3FB02EC0...@teleport.com...
Ed Price
"W7TI" <no...@nohow.com> wrote in message
news:vca2rv88fs8ai43v6...@4ax.com...
> >favors for you, they're in business to make money. Period.
>
>
> Not true. Like all businesses, Tek must please their customers while
> making money or soon there will be no customers. The trick is to strike
> the right balance. Tektronix has been in business for ~50 years now, so
> I'd say they are doing it right.
>
> --
> Bill, W7TI
>
> p.s. I'm an ex-employee, so grains of salt will be distributed as
> necessary.
Your analysis might be true, IF there was any continuity to typical
management. Businesses that have been "doing the right thing" for 50 years
can suddenly do bizarre things, often from bringing in a "breath of fresh
air" in the form of a manager hired from competition, or, even worse, from
some totally unrelated industry. Or the management level fills up with
lawyers and bean counters. Got synergy?
Other things, like management loosing their collective nerve or direction,
can also produce this effect. Remember Coke? For 90 plus years, brand leader
with an unchanging formula. Then the data comes in from some market focus
group, and we suddenly get New Coke!
BTW, this "news" about destroying obsolete products is very old news. Seems
like more than 10 years ago, HP was doing this on 141-series analyzer
mainframes. Come to think of it, HP ain't the old HP anymore, huh?
Ed
wb6wsn
Ghost writer
news:pznsb.23360$mb5.1962@fed1read02...
In this current time, NOTHING is as it used to be.. As the man pointed out
with management, ideas, formulas and so on, it seems all of what "used to
be" common sense has gone out the window. Nothing should come as a surprise
in this day and age.
But, speaking of trashing items, I too know of a few companies that trash
their items with no regard to future use, and so on.
This world is run by a whole different set of rules now and even they aren't
set in stone. It is a shame to see such equipment still with some life to it
demolished, but such is life. G.W.
Radioman
They even advertise, The New HP!
Phil Kane
>> Come to think of it, HP ain't the old HP anymore, huh?
>
>They even advertise, The New HP!
IIRC HP broke into several different companies - the one that makes
computers absorbed Compaq (or was it the other way around) and the
one that makes printer stuff is the "new HP".
The one that made (from the start) and still makes some of the best
test equipment now has a new name.
It shudd'a been the other way around.
--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
John Walton
been going down. a TEK7704a with 4 plug-ins cost as much as a car when it
was introduced -- today you can get same performance (well actually more
since you have FFT and math) in a TDS3034 for 1/2 the price of a car.
RP Jones
Actually "now that I remember"
I had called Tek to enquire about a 465 B faceplate, this guy totally "lost
his wig" before I even got to speak about owning a 2232.
$^% 465 !! jokingly told me "THIS ISN'T SANFORD AND SON"
I have since sold the 2232 and baught 465B and a little NLS battery operated
(NLS are VERY very nice people, they sent me a manual, alignment/service
procedure and schematic free!! )
I also have a 545 on a cart to I use in the basement (winter) people love
looking at it :)
-RP
"private" <pri...@private.com> wrote in message
news:3FB145DC...@private.com...
gw
isn't it true that the older stuff is built like a battleship and
isn't as proprietary and can be repaired with user obtainable parts?
I always heard tek for scopes and hp for analyzers. Any thoughts on
that?
Mike Andrews
> isn't it true that the older stuff is built like a battleship and
> isn't as proprietary and can be repaired with user obtainable parts?
> I always heard tek for scopes and hp for analyzers. Any thoughts on
> that?
My experience is that HP scopes are OK-to-great, while Tek scopes
are excellent-to-superb. Similarly, HP generators and analyzers are
excellent-to-superb, while OK-to-great.
There are other manufacturers that make excellent-to-superb hardware,
such as Fluke.
--
Mike Andrews
mi...@mikea.ath.cx
Tired old sysadmin
Scott Dorsey
>I don't know I wasn't stupid enough to even think about calling GTE.
>Actually "now that I remember"
>I had called Tek to enquire about a 465 B faceplate, this guy totally "lost
>his wig" before I even got to speak about owning a 2232.
> $^% 465 !! jokingly told me "THIS ISN'T SANFORD AND SON"
The repair depot in Washington DC has one old guy who likes working on the
older gear, and has some limited parts supply for them. Last year he spent
an awful lot of time getting the 100V supply on my 610 video monitor working
reliably, and I can strongly recommend the DC folks.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
RP Jones
and crushed.
"Built in absolesance" Its a dam shame !
Id agree on Tek for scopes and HP for analyzers, if you look on Ebay HP
"as is" scopes with problems must out number the Tek's 10-1.
(Many developed push button/switchpad related problems)
"gw" <g...@webhideout.com> wrote in message > isn't it true that the older
Chuck Harris
fault. When they made the horizontal timing knobs for their 80's
vintage scopes, they made them out of plastic, and carved large slots in
the space between the outer part you turn with your fingers and the
inner part that turns the knob. This left very little plastic to take
the torque of turning the knob. Once they break there is no easy way
of repairing them.
The other big problem is their use of delrin gears with aluminum hubs
just about everywhere. And after 15 years, they are all broken. The
HP8640B is built like a tank, but everyone I have ever had came with
several gears that had split due to shrinkage.
-Chuck
jakdedert
jak
"Bill Turner" <no...@nohow.com> wrote in message
news:74earv0qu5kkn9bo5...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:21:29 GMT, "RP Jones"
> <rpar...@verizon.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
>
> >I had called Tek to enquire about a 465 B faceplate, this guy totally
"lost
> >his wig" before I even got to speak about owning a 2232.
> > $^% 465 !! jokingly told me "THIS ISN'T SANFORD AND SON"
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> I've read the above several times and can't quite figure out what you're
> complaining about. Try it again in English.
>
> --
> Bill, W6WRT
>
gw
what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
break the bank on this stuff? thanks.
johnm
> what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
> opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
> break the bank on this stuff? thanks.
What specs do you want, and how much do you want to spend? The HP 141T
series is great for technically-inclined hams. Very maintainable, very
reliable once you understand its quirks, very competitive performance...
and very big and heavy. Typically $1K or less on eBay for a working
outfit.
Tek's 492-497 series are also excellent analyzers. Newer and much more
portable than the 141T series, but still easily maintainable (via parts
units and aftermarket suppliers, not through Tek). Quite a bit more
expensive in most cases. $2K - $7K depending on model and options.
HP 8560-series analyzers are also very nice; I have no personal
experience with these, though. Stay away from the cheaper (8557/8/9) HP
units. Tek's older 491 is probably also best avoided in favor of the
141T line (this is probably where the saying "HP for analyzers" came
from.)
Tek analyzers from the 2780 series should also be avoided by most users.
They are still extremely expensive ($7K and up), and like the older
490/2750 analyzers no parts or manuals can be ordered from Tek anymore.
However, unlike the 490/2750 units, they can be calibrated only with
special PC-based configurations connected to specific test sources via
GPIB and running obsolete software. Worse, Tek supported them only via
module exchange, never releasing any component-level schematics. These
are very powerful instruments, but keeping a 2782 or 2784 running
nowadays would be a serious, ongoing research project in itself. These
were symptomatic of the "bean-counter" generation at Tek, where customer
needs were considered secondary to high-priced, proprietary product
support and finite market lifetime.
-- jm
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------
johnm
> The saddest problems I have found with the HP gear is purely their own
> fault. When they made the horizontal timing knobs for their 80's
> vintage scopes, they made them out of plastic, and carved large slots in
> the space between the outer part you turn with your fingers and the
> inner part that turns the knob. This left very little plastic to take
> the torque of turning the knob. Once they break there is no easy way
> of repairing them.
>
> The other big problem is their use of delrin gears with aluminum hubs
> just about everywhere. And after 15 years, they are all broken. The
> HP8640B is built like a tank, but everyone I have ever had came with
> several gears that had split due to shrinkage.
>
I heard someone on the test-equipment reflector (http://www.qth.net) was
going to fabricate some replacement 8640B gears out of metal. You might
check with that list to see if it ever happened.
Roger Halstead
wrote:
>The saddest problems I have found with the HP gear is purely their own
>fault. When they made the horizontal timing knobs for their 80's
>vintage scopes, they made them out of plastic, and carved large slots in
>the space between the outer part you turn with your fingers and the
>inner part that turns the knob. This left very little plastic to take
>the torque of turning the knob. Once they break there is no easy way
>of repairing them.
That sounds just like the knobs used in the HT 32, 33, and SX101
series. They have a very thin flange, or lip around the front that is
very fragile. I saw one on e-bay a couple days ago that was described
as excellent, yet it had at least two sections of that lip missing.
>
>The other big problem is their use of delrin gears with aluminum hubs
>just about everywhere. And after 15 years, they are all broken. The
>HP8640B is built like a tank, but everyone I have ever had came with
>several gears that had split due to shrinkage.
But Delrin is very easy to machine.
Also unless the gears are of a very odd size (most are spur gears or a
pair of 45 degree bevel gears) that can be replaced with something
more modern and durable.
I do like a lot of the new, lighter weight gear as I have a bad back.
(Probably from man handling that old stuff that takes two good size
men to load it into a trailer)
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
gw
how about a 8569b ? some guy has one on ebay now for about
$3,000.00......i might pull the trigger on that one.....I would be
using it for hf work. I was considering a 141t from tucker . it cost
more but at least you know it works. i was going to get the 8552b and
8553b plugins with it. then you have to round up the connecting cables
and manuals for them. comments? oh by the way i have read good things
about the hp 8569b's. if they work.
Dave VanHorn
> what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
> opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
> break the bank on this stuff? thanks.
A tek 7000 mainframe is my spectrum analyzer, and backup scope.
I have a 7L5 plugin for 0-5MHz, and 7L13 for 0.1 to 1800 MHz
I also have the companion tracking generator.
This stuff was all aquired piecemeal at hamfests, and in total, probably set
me back <$1k.
I've had it for (eek!) 13 years!
The 7000 series is getting long in the tooth, but there's a ton of plugins
out there cheap, and they are very nice instruments.
Generally, get the best scope you can afford, and "give till it hurts". :)
My current scope is a TDS-420 4 channel DSO. It wasn't cheap, except in
relative terms, but it's my main tool for earning a living, and I wouldn't
want to work with less.
Depending on what you want to do with it, you might be ok with a 100 or even
60 MHz non-storage analog scope. You want the bandwidth to be >> the
frequency you'll be working at. Assuming 11M applications, I'd say 60 would
be marginal, 100 definitely better.
Also, GET GOOD PROBES! I just re-probed at Dayton this year, I think I
spent $800 or so on probes. I got two sets of very nice probes (8 probes
total) plus a set of lesser quality "everyday" probes that I use when I'm
not really pushing the limits. Save the good ones for when it matters.
Some old BNC cable with clipleads will work at audio, but you wouldn't want
to debug a switching power supply with it!
John Miles
g...@webhideout.com says...
My guess is that the 8569b would be a very passable unit. Its specs
seem competitive with an optioned-out Tek 492 in most respects, except
that it only goes down to 10 MHz (perhaps there's an underrange
capability that lets it see lower frequencies?) That might be a concern
if you're going to be using it mostly for HF work.
I see that there's some modern GPIB software for it at www.febo.com,
which is VERY good to have. (I've written my own for the Tek 49x
analyzers, but it's never been tested on the HP jobs.)
But since I've never actually played with an 8560-series model, I can't
speak with any authority. Maybe someone who owns one will pipe up.
The 141Ts at Tucker seem like a pretty good deal. I believe they all
come with new CRTs. I personally like to buy broken models on eBay and
fix them up. It's cheaper, you get really familiar with the gear inside
and out, and you always have spare parts on hand. But that strategy
isn't for everybody.
Ed Price
"John Miles" <jmi...@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a1f6f2ab...@news-central.giganews.com...
> In article <235a74db.03111...@posting.google.com>,
> g...@webhideout.com says...
> > johnm <jmi...@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote in message
news:<MPG.1a1f0b5db...@news-central.giganews.com>...
> > > > what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
> > > > opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have to
> > > > break the bank on this stuff? thanks.
SNIP
> > how about a 8569b ? some guy has one on ebay now for about
> > $3,000.00......i might pull the trigger on that one.....I would be
> > using it for hf work. I was considering a 141t from tucker . it cost
> > more but at least you know it works. i was going to get the 8552b and
> > 8553b plugins with it. then you have to round up the connecting cables
> > and manuals for them. comments? oh by the way i have read good things
> > about the hp 8569b's. if they work.
>
> My guess is that the 8569b would be a very passable unit. Its specs
> seem competitive with an optioned-out Tek 492 in most respects, except
> that it only goes down to 10 MHz (perhaps there's an underrange
> capability that lets it see lower frequencies?) That might be a concern
> if you're going to be using it mostly for HF work.
SNIP
> The 141Ts at Tucker seem like a pretty good deal. I believe they all
> come with new CRTs. I personally like to buy broken models on eBay and
> fix them up. It's cheaper, you get really familiar with the gear inside
> and out, and you always have spare parts on hand. But that strategy
> isn't for everybody.
>
> -- jm
As I have HP-141's, an HP-8569, an 8566B and an 8562A, let me drop a few
comments here.
The 141's are the best deal for a hobbyist. You can acquire the slightly
better 8552B IF section, and then get only the RF plug-in that suits your
needs (an 8556, with it's built-in tracking generator, for a few Hz to 300
kHz, or an 8555, for 10 MHz through umpteen GHz, assuming you also get the
external mixers). Unfortunately, by the time a hobbyist gets one of these,
it has been abused and neglected by its last commercial owner. CRT burns are
common, and the flood-gun analog memory may be very quirky. For an advanced
hobbyist, either get an associated Polaroid scope camera, or build your own
camera hood. You can capture a lot of transient things that way, and you can
scan the pixs to input into your computer. Also, HP made a line of
oscilloscope plug-ins that fit the 141 mainframe, so you can use the 141 as
a multi-channel analog memory oscilloscope too. 141's are a pain in two
ways; first, you have to externally store extra plug-ins, and secondly, the
hard side handles make carrying one a painful experience beyond about 50
feet. Also, you tend to injure your fingertips sliding those bulky plug-ins
in and out past the big metal front handles. The 141 may also be the last of
the hobbyist repairable analyzers; newer analyzers use proprietary chips and
are built too dense to let you get fingers and probes into them.
The 8562A is old (1987) but a superb analyzer, 1 kHz to 18 GHz, all digital
and synthesized. This will do everything you want, except drive a parallel
or RS-232 printer directly. If you're smart enough to talk to it by
IEEE-488, then you can do everything through the computer. Other 856x series
units have lesser capabilities, but are still great analyzers, and just
might be priced low enough for a very serious hobbyist. Also, the HP-859x
series are very good, although some have odd frequency, memory and IO
capabilities. All 856x & 859x series units are one-man portables, until your
knuckles turn white and numb.
The 8569 is, in my opinion, a transitional beast between the analog and
digital worlds. It's not as stable and simple as the 8562A, although it's a
leap above the 141. Since it's wide, it's also awkward to carry using it's
handle. I'm not much of a fan of the 8569.
The 8566B is HP's top-of-the-line analyzer. They threw down the benchmark
for everyone else to try to meet. Mine is customized a bit, covering 20 Hz
to 22 GHz, and with an external tracking pre-selector, optional detectors,
programmable attenuators, RF path switching and low-noise pre-amps. My
company has a number of somewhat more plain-vanilla 8566B's and 8566A's.
There isn't anything I need to do that these units fall short of (uhh, with
the help of some external IEEE-488 linked computers). OTOH, these are now
obsolete, non-supported by Agilent, and need two guys to carry one. Mine is
in a 60" tall dedicated rack. Typical used price is around $20k.
Most companies will be better served with one of Agilent's newer EPA or SPA
analyzers. Anritsu and Rohde & Schwartz are also making fine analyzers.
IIRC, Leader makes an analyzer that a hobbyist may aspire to affording.
I would say that a 141 is still the best hobbyist choice. A company needs to
be sure that they get a usable item for their money, so buying on eBay is a
gamble. A company should buy from some place like Tucker, where they get a
warranty backed by a reputable source. Yeah, it initially costs more. But
it's a lot safer than having to try to repair an analyzer when you need that
analyzer to do the real work of your company. A hobbyist can afford to spend
50 to 100 hours to get something going; in a business environment, where the
clock is always ticking, that's unacceptable.
Ed
wb6wsn
gw
didn't the 141t's come out in the late 60's? I believe I read
somewhere that the hp 8566b came out in 1995 and cost around $75,000
new, and like you stated I have read that it is the best spectrum
analyzer ever built. I see them for about $10,000.00 to $12,000.00
starting on ebay but I would have some serious problems laying out
that kind of money for a item on ebay. Thanks for the info. For all I
know the 141t might serve my purposes just fine. I will look and see
if tucker has one of those 8562a's though.
gw
wow! I just looked at the tucker catalogue and the 8562a's are going
for $17,000.00. Looks like they don't want to give that one away
either. Seems like if you want a nice analyzer for your home shop you
had better go out and get yourself a home equity loan because you are
going to need it...
do you know anything about the hp 180t series mainframes with assorted
plugins? They have some of those also.
Ed Price
> "Ed Price" <edp...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<tPmtb.4837$cX1.463@fed1read02>...
> > "John Miles" <jmi...@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1a1f6f2ab...@news-central.giganews.com...
> > > In article <235a74db.03111...@posting.google.com>,
> > > g...@webhideout.com says...
> > > > johnm <jmi...@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote in message
> > news:<MPG.1a1f0b5db...@news-central.giganews.com>...
> > > > > > what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
SNIP
> wow! I just looked at the tucker catalogue and the 8562a's are going
> for $17,000.00. Looks like they don't want to give that one away
> either. Seems like if you want a nice analyzer for your home shop you
> had better go out and get yourself a home equity loan because you are
> going to need it...
>
> do you know anything about the hp 180t series mainframes with assorted
> plugins? They have some of those also.
IIRC, the 180 mainframe was a different form-factor than the 141. The 180
stacked up a bit more like a big oscilloscope.
Ed
wb6wsn
Ed Price
> "Ed Price" <edp...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<tPmtb.4837$cX1.463@fed1read02>...
> > "John Miles" <jmi...@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1a1f6f2ab...@news-central.giganews.com...
> > > In article <235a74db.03111...@posting.google.com>,
> > > g...@webhideout.com says...
> > > > johnm <jmi...@pop.removethistomailme.net> wrote in message
> > news:<MPG.1a1f0b5db...@news-central.giganews.com>...
> > > > > > what is a good spectrum analyzer to have for a home shop in your
> > > > > > opinion, and also what is a good scope to have and do you have
to
> > > > > > break the bank on this stuff? thanks.
> >
SNIP
> > > The 141Ts at Tucker seem like a pretty good deal. I believe they all
A 140 series, with a round face CRT came out in the early 70's. The 141,
with a rectangular face, hit around 1975. The 8566 was around 1991, IIRC.
Unless you get extraordinarily lucky (and when does that ever happen), all
but the 141 series is priced beyond the hobbyist. Maybe some of those 8562's
or 859x's will be still working in 5 years or so when they hit the surplus
market. Till then, hobbyists are still pretty much in the analog SA world.
Ed
wb6wsn
I wouldn't buy an 8566B on eBay; I can't cross my fingers that hard.
Scott Dorsey
>
>A 140 series, with a round face CRT came out in the early 70's. The 141,
>with a rectangular face, hit around 1975. The 8566 was around 1991, IIRC.
The 141 weighs a ton, but it's rock solid stable, it sells for reasonable
money at hamfests, and it's not that hard to get repaired.
Also, I think the Singer spectrum analyzers of that era are underrated and
sell for very low sums considering how good they are. When I first used
one, I was amazed at how birdie-free it was (although admittedly this was
30 years ago, and all of our standards for birdies are a bit higher).
>Unless you get extraordinarily lucky (and when does that ever happen), all
>but the 141 series is priced beyond the hobbyist. Maybe some of those 8562's
>or 859x's will be still working in 5 years or so when they hit the surplus
>market. Till then, hobbyists are still pretty much in the analog SA world.
You know, I like the analogue SA gear. I like analogue scopes too.
I see a lot of wideband hand-held receivers like the Icom R10, some of which
have crude LCD panadaptor displays. Has anyone used any of these as cheap
spectrum analyzers? If so, what is the one that will give me the best
resolution possible? I don't much care about the front end sensitivity.
I can live with some serious limitations in order to have something I can
carry in my pocket.
It would be very nice to have a spectrum analyzer I can carry up to the top
of the tower with me to poke around at the head amps before taking the
whole thing down.
ddwyer
<spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net> writes
>Tektronix is trying to manipulate the oscilloscope market. Today I learned from
>my local dealership that they are required by contract to destroy every scope
>which is traded in for a new Tektronix scope, regardless of age or condition. So
>if you decide to trade in that old scope for a Tektronix, know ahead of time
>that it is NOT going to end up in the hands of a ham, or of some kid learning
>and experimenting in electronics on a tight budget like I was thir... er, twenty
>years ago. No, Tektronix needs to raise their profits by destroying every used
>scope they can get their greedy little hands on, regardless of who feels the
>pinch!
>
major respects to the previous analog versions.
Translate the dynamic range ie noise to max signal for a fair analog
scope and represent it in bits ; translates to 24bits or so with 100+MHz
bw cant do that with digital only 12 bits or so!!
Ive re recently had access to all types and demonstrated that to see a
.1mV 200MHz parasitic oscillation on a 10V 10MHz sin wave cant be done
on a modern scope (have to use analog spectrum analyser) but easy on a
good analog scope .
Cheap Analog still available from Japan we are being forced in that
direction bt Tech and Agilent/HP
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
>http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
>-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
--
ddwyer
jakdedert
of expletives that those symbols generally represent? Have you never seen
profanity annotated that way (think: comic strip)? The 'Sanford & Son'
reference was made by the service rep, apparently referring to the gall of
the OP, for wasting the rep's valuable time asking for information about
equipment that he (the rep) considered to be nothing but junk (you'll recall
the TV series of that name was about a junk dealer).
Does that wrap it up for you...or--OP--did I get that right?
jak
"Bill Turner" <no...@nohow.com> wrote in message
news:g9mbrv49eekbrcv2i...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:58:52 -0600, "jakdedert" <jde...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Looked like English to me. What part of it did you not understand?
> >
> >jak
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> 1. The part about calling regarding a 465 faceplate and the guy losing
> his wig before he got to speak about the 2232. Can you say "non
> sequitur"?
>
> 2. Is there a person named "$^% 465 !!"? This person apparently makes
> jokes about Sanford and Son. What does this have to do with ordering
> parts from Tektronix?
>
> 3. If you *can* make sense out of his post, I worry about you. :-)
>
> --
> Bill, W6WRT
>
Scott Dorsey
>
>I heard someone on the test-equipment reflector (http://www.qth.net) was
>going to fabricate some replacement 8640B gears out of metal. You might
>check with that list to see if it ever happened.
Dunno, but the guy at www.odometergears.com has been VERY happy to fabricate
plastic instrument gears for me, for fairly little money.
Radiobuff
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:03:06 -0800, Frank Gilliland
<spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net> wrote:
>Tektronix is trying to manipulate the oscilloscope market. Today I learned from
>my local dealership that they are required by contract to destroy every scope
>which is traded in for a new Tektronix scope, regardless of age or condition. So
>if you decide to trade in that old scope for a Tektronix, know ahead of time
>that it is NOT going to end up in the hands of a ham, or of some kid learning
>and experimenting in electronics on a tight budget like I was thir... er, twenty
>years ago. No, Tektronix needs to raise their profits by destroying every used
>scope they can get their greedy little hands on, regardless of who feels the
>pinch!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Roy Lewallen
I've got an HP 140T. As far as I know, the only difference between it
and the 141T is that the CRT in mine is a conventional one with
long-persistence phosphor rather than a storage tube. It uses the same
plug-in units as the 141T. I find it to be very usable, and don't really
miss storage capability at all. I think the tube is a lot more
trouble-free than a storage type unit.
So I recommend that you don't turn down a 140T if you come across one --
and you might even have a better chance of getting a unit with a working
display than with a 141T.
Roy Lewallen, W7EL
Ed Price wrote:
[Lots of good advice]
Richard Cranium
> Motorola does all the time with there radios that are traded in
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:03:06 -0800, Frank Gilliland
> <spa...@NOSPAMaimcomm.net> wrote:
>
> >Tektronix is trying to manipulate the oscilloscope market. Today I learned from
> >my local dealership that they are required by contract to destroy every scope
> >which is traded in for a new Tektronix scope, regardless of age or condition. So
> >if you decide to trade in that old scope for a Tektronix, know ahead of time
> >that it is NOT going to end up in the hands of a ham, or of some kid learning
> >and experimenting in electronics on a tight budget like I was thir... er, twenty
> >years ago. No, Tektronix needs to raise their profits by destroying every used
> >scope they can get their greedy little hands on, regardless of who feels the
> >pinch!
Just Frankie TROLLing as usual. Ignore the TROLL behind the curtain!
gw
well it is amazing i think how some of these units retain their resale
value even though the companies that made them do not service them or
back them......man who was the brainiac that thought about how to
implement this scam?
incidentally some guy tried to sell a stolen hp unit he lifted over at
his job at nasa.......on ebay.....the final price was i think about
$3,000.00....for a 35,000 dollar unit i thing they said on the
news......he got arrested and the guy who bought it on ebay needless
to say didn't get the deal he was trying to get.....which makes me
wonder how many stolen items are listed on ebay and are sold there?
Ed Price
> Roy Lewallen <w7...@eznec.com> wrote in message
news:<vrejloh...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > Thanks to Ed for the good advice.
> >
> > I've got an HP 140T. As far as I know, the only difference between it
> > and the 141T is that the CRT in mine is a conventional one with
> > long-persistence phosphor rather than a storage tube. It uses the same
> > plug-in units as the 141T. I find it to be very usable, and don't really
> > miss storage capability at all. I think the tube is a lot more
> > trouble-free than a storage type unit.
> >
> > So I recommend that you don't turn down a 140T if you come across one --
> > and you might even have a better chance of getting a unit with a working
> > display than with a 141T.
> >
> > Roy Lewallen, W7EL
> >
> > Ed Price wrote:
> >
> > [Lots of good advice]
>
>
> well it is amazing i think how some of these units retain their resale
> value even though the companies that made them do not service them or
> back them......man who was the brainiac that thought about how to
> implement this scam?
Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or exotic
service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.
Ed
wb6wsn
Chuck Harris
> Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
> capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or exotic
> service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.
>
> Ed
> wb6wsn
>
Imagine your cell phone if it was designed to be repaired, and used only
common components. It would be the size of a briefcase. Do you think
cell phones would be popular if they had to be briefcase sized?
What about spectrum analyzers that needed to be contained in several
6 foot high rack cabinets?
Is the world better or worse now that a 100MHz oscilloscope can be made
the size of a paper back book?
-Chuck, WA3UQV
Michael A. Terrell
Most of the chips in cell phones are off the shelf parts, and there
are places that do repair cell phones. RMS Communications in Ocala,
Florida rebuilds thousands of pagers and cell phones every week. I know
several techs who worked there, and they were telling me about the
equipment they had available at each work station.
One problem with new RF and test equipment is the firmware programmed
into chips isn't readily available to program replacement parts. Another
problem is the short production life for some parts. If you build a
product for over two years, you either do "Lifetime purchases", or
redesign boards to use the next round of parts. What is real fun is a
base product with up to 100 different sets of software, depending on the
customers specifications. Its hard enough to keep it straight on the
factory floor, let alone trying to do it in the field.
--
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
jakdedert
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:15:09 -0600, "jakdedert" <jde...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> >No, there is no person so named. Would you prefer that he had used the
sort
> >of expletives that those symbols generally represent? Have you never
seen
> >profanity annotated that way (think: comic strip)?
>
> that and the rest becomes recognizable.
Didn't notice that...finger must've slipped off the shift key.
>
>
> >The 'Sanford & Son'
> >reference was made by the service rep, apparently referring to the gall
of
> >the OP, for wasting the rep's valuable time asking for information about
> >equipment that he (the rep) considered to be nothing but junk (you'll
recall
> >the TV series of that name was about a junk dealer).
>
> Pretty obscure, but makes sense now.
> >
> >Does that wrap it up for you...or--OP--did I get that right?
>
> Got it all, thanks. Plain 'ol English beats speaking in tongues though.
> Actually, this was kind of fun. Maybe we should all start posting with
> obscure references and irregular grammar. Not.
>
Glad to be of service. Actually I think the obscure reference was actually
a paraphrased quotation of the service rep, which the OP repeated...probably
should have used quote marks there to clear it up.
jak
> --
> Bill, W6WRT
>
Chuck Harris
>
> Most of the chips in cell phones are off the shelf parts, and there
> are places that do repair cell phones. RMS Communications in Ocala,
> Florida rebuilds thousands of pagers and cell phones every week. I know
> several techs who worked there, and they were telling me about the
> equipment they had available at each work station.
>
Most of the parts in a tek scope are off the shelf too, but like the
cell phone, there are one or two show stoppers. For the cell phone,
it is the microprocessor with its combination mask and flash
programming.
I know a guy that repairs pagers, but you cannot convince me that it
is a profitable business.... The way he moaned about the cost of my
fixing his RF signal generator gives me a clue.
> One problem with new RF and test equipment is the firmware programmed
> into chips isn't readily available to program replacement parts. Another
> problem is the short production life for some parts. If you build a
> product for over two years, you either do "Lifetime purchases", or
> redesign boards to use the next round of parts. What is real fun is a
> base product with up to 100 different sets of software, depending on the
> customers specifications. Its hard enough to keep it straight on the
> factory floor, let alone trying to do it in the field.
It is even worse in the space field, where by the time a part is
qualified, and a satellite is made, the part is stone cold obsolete.
-Chuck
Paul Burridge
wrote:
>Designing and building a product to provide many years of use, and then
>capable of being repaired without access to unique components and/or exotic
>service equipment, is a concept so rare as to be thought a scam.
Can anyone recommend a decent commercial vector network analyser and
spectrum analyser that one can repair oneself if necessary and
hopefully keep them up and running for ever?
--
"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
- Winston Churchill
gw
hmm, kind of like buying a computer ...in a few mounths it is
obsolete...on the tektroix and hp stuff.......you would think that
they would be feeling the heat from asia like everyone else.....just
how much profit is there in a unit that sells new for $75,000.00? and
why may i ask after 10 to 15 years it still sells for heavy cash....
gw
well ed what are your thoughts on a hp 8590? bueno o no bueno?
Chuck Harris
> hmm, kind of like buying a computer ...in a few mounths it is
> obsolete...on the tektroix and hp stuff.......you would think that
> they would be feeling the heat from asia like everyone else.....just
> how much profit is there in a unit that sells new for $75,000.00? and
> why may i ask after 10 to 15 years it still sells for heavy cash....
When you look at the price of a $75,000 unit, consider this: First,
the test equipment market is really rather small, nothing like the
consumer electronics market, and second, bleeding edge technology
test equipment requires some serious money to develop. Tektronix
and HP have historically been positioned right in the front of the
technology wave. So, a unit that sells for $75,000 may have cost
$20 million to develop to where it could be manufactured. It
probably only has a market life of 1000 units. Then the actual
manufacture of the product costs something. A good round figure
is the ratio of parts cost to sale price is 3x to 4x. Labor figures
in at about equal to parts cost.
-20,000,000 to develop
-25,000 x 1000 units = -25,000,000 parts cost
-25,000 x 1000 units = -25,000,000 labor cost
75,000 x 1000 units = +75,000,000 sales price of instrument
-------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom line +$5,000,000
Take that $5 million, and subtract some for advertising, and service,
and you haven't got much left.
Granted these numbers are just guesses, but I have been doing small
quantity manufacture for a lot of years, and these kinds of ratios
come up again and again.
As to why the Tektronix and HP stuff commands a high price in the
used market, the reason is simple, the gear is high quality, has
very high capabilities, and the price of a new replacement is also
high.
-Chuck
Michael A. Terrell
>
> I know a guy that repairs pagers, but you cannot convince me that it
> is a profitable business.... The way he moaned about the cost of my
> fixing his RF signal generator gives me a clue.
>
Believe what you want, but the place has around 100 employees, and
was looking at buying the old L3-Com/Microdyne complex to expand into
its 120,000+ square feet of buildings and acres of land for parking.
They are bigger than Microdyne was when it closed the complex and
moved to Pennsylvania. If there is no money in repairing pager and cell
phones, why do they want to buy property which is priced at 1.6 million
dollars? Here is the listing for the complex:
http://www.foxfirerealty.com/showlisting.ap?listid=17779&id=2
Chuck Harris
seeing how this is a money making venture is the low price of
cell phones and pagers. When a Cell phone lists for $99, how much
time can a technician really spend fixing it?
In the repair business, the maximum repair price you can charge a
customer has to be less than 40% of the cost of new, or they will
always walk away. If they walk away, and give you their phones for
free, then perhaps you could make a little bit fixing it and selling
it, but really, now, tracphone sells refurbished nokia 5185i's for
$39. There is not much margine in that.
Who pays for the time necessary for the technician to open the phone,
diagnose the problem, unsolder the offending module, test the phone,
reassemble, and pack? You would have to pay your technicians less
than $10 per hour!
-Chuck
Michael A. Terrell
>
> I'm not trying to be difficult Michael. The reason I have trouble
> seeing how this is a money making venture is the low price of
> cell phones and pagers. When a Cell phone lists for $99, how much
> time can a technician really spend fixing it?
>
> In the repair business, the maximum repair price you can charge a
> customer has to be less than 40% of the cost of new, or they will
> always walk away. If they walk away, and give you their phones for
> free, then perhaps you could make a little bit fixing it and selling
> it, but really, now, tracphone sells refurbished nokia 5185i's for
> $39. There is not much margine in that.
>
> Who pays for the time necessary for the technician to open the phone,
> diagnose the problem, unsolder the offending module, test the phone,
> reassemble, and pack? You would have to pay your technicians less
> than $10 per hour!
>
> -Chuck
It is run like a factory, not one up repairs. That makes a huge
difference. The techs don't disassemble the units. the production people
do a quick test, clean up the cases, and send the boards to be repaired.
A lot of repairs are new crystals, or reprogramming the synthesizer, or
replacing a bad LCD display which is done before a tech sees it.
Also, they do large runs of the same unit, then do a different model.
Also, some only need a few pieces of the case replaced, and the password
cracked so it can be reprogrammed in the field.
They have service contracts where someone ships a 1000 pagers or 100
cell phones and they repair what they can in a fixed time. They either
return the bad units, or replace them with their own stock of repaired
units, depending on the contract. they also repair a lot of older models
and sell them overseas.
Ed Price
We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items. A
consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability is
often not a concern.
I never saw "multi-six-foot-rack analyzers"; the oldest & biggest I can
recall were Singer FIM analyzers, which were about 24" wide by 30" tall and
deep, and took four guys to move them (and the plug-in RF heads were a
one-man lift!). OTOH, everything inside was reachable and easily repairable.
If that 100 MHz scope can be built to have a reasonable cost to lifetime
ratio, then it could be considered a consumer item, and a non-repairable
investment. But to me, if I have to pay $10k or more for a piece of test
equipment, it had better last quite a few years and allow me to do
re-calibration and even moderately severe repair.
Ed
Ed Price
A very good analyzer series, but generally still priced out of the hobbyist
market. Reasonably portable, and ruggedly built. Performance is generally a
bit lower than the 856x series, but still very respectable. Much more useful
than a hobbyist-affordable 141 analyzer, and easier and more versatile than
an older 8569 analyzer. Unless your needs are exotic, the 859x series will
be a good industrial choice.
Ed
wb6wsn
Ed Price
"Paul Burridge" <p...@osiris1.notthisbit.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sjvhrvoi762669aj9...@4ax.com...
For the spectrum analyzer part, the best a hobbyist can usually afford is an
HP-141, with a few plug-ins (IIRC, they offered a total of 6, collect the
whole set!). And you will need the HP manuals (some of which are available
free from the US Army LOGSA site). And you will need some other basic and
decent lab gear (scope, counter, DMM, sig gens) to do the job right.
Sorry, but I can't comment on any Network Analyzers.
Ed
wb6wsn
Chuck Harris
> We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items. A
> consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability is
> often not a concern.
If you cannot see the relationship, then you need to stretch a bit.
Everything in electronics, test equipment especially has grown in
complexity and performance, as it has been reduced in size. Some of the
reductions are there to make it possible to fit more test equipment in a
given space, and some are there because of necessities of the new
technology (eg. microwave speeds and low power consumption are better
done with tiny sized components.)
>
> I never saw "multi-six-foot-rack analyzers"; the oldest & biggest I can
> recall were Singer FIM analyzers, which were about 24" wide by 30" tall and
> deep, and took four guys to move them (and the plug-in RF heads were a
> one-man lift!). OTOH, everything inside was reachable and easily repairable.
Was your life, as a technician that is, made better or worse when that
same 4 man lift SA was reduced to one that you could carry yourself with
one hand, while carrying your 1G scope with the other?
How about performance? Did it help you to have the bandwidth limit of
your old 4 man lift SA rise from 1GHz to 300GHz? How about your 30MHz
scope that is now 1GHz? Did you notice that the prices went DOWN?
How about the heat generation? Have you ever worked in a lab that had
no effective air conditioning, and also had a herd of Tek 500 series
scopes whirring away?.. in the middle of the summer? I have, and I am
quite happy not to do it anymore. We saw temperatures as high as 120F
at times. No windows, one door, lots of fans. Turn off the equipment,
and the AC did quite fine.
And finally, how about the space savings? Does it help you or hurt you
to recapture that floor space the old SA, and scope, and signal
generator used?
Tiny little custom component ridden hard to service test equipment made
it possible to move away from that kind of scene.
>
> If that 100 MHz scope can be built to have a reasonable cost to lifetime
> ratio, then it could be considered a consumer item, and a non-repairable
> investment. But to me, if I have to pay $10k or more for a piece of test
> equipment, it had better last quite a few years and allow me to do
> re-calibration and even moderately severe repair.
All of the $10K+ stuff I have seen from HP or Tek would easily meet your
needs. Calibration? You cannot be serious. Most of this stuff is so
finely calibrated that it would be beyond the capabilities of anything
but an expert calibration lab to accomplish the task. Just having the
standards necessary takes a whole lab... and a whole budget. I know
this because I tried to set up a NIST traceable cal lab for my business,
and eventually concluded that for me to do that, cal would have to
become my exclusive business. I still have all the standards and
equipment, but no time to put them to use... No money to keep them in
cert with NIST. It is FAR cheaper to send the stuff out and get it
calibrated.
The "consumer grade" goodies in the test equipment market don't
really need more than a simple calibration checking. I cannot tell
you the last time my little Fluke DVM needed recalibration... Because it
is 15 years old, and it has NEVER needed recalibration. Has something
to do with the little fidgety custom components that are inside it.
Same goes for my Tek 2465 scope.
-Chuck
gw
well some guy who has a company that i guess is in the business of
buying refurbing and selling electronic equipment has one on ebay for
about $2100.00. should i cross my fingers and go for it? he takes
credit cards. he says it is working very well, it looks real good
according the pics he has of it and it has a fresh calibration.
Ed Price
"gw" <g...@webhideout.com> wrote in message
news:235a74db.03111...@posting.google.com...
> "Ed Price" <edp...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<WFoub.16633$cX1.14167@fed1read02>...
> > "gw" <g...@webhideout.com> wrote in message
SNIP
> > >
> > > well ed what are your thoughts on a hp 8590? bueno o no bueno?
> >
> > A very good analyzer series, but generally still priced out of the
hobbyist
> > market. Reasonably portable, and ruggedly built. Performance is
generally a
> > bit lower than the 856x series, but still very respectable. Much more
useful
> > than a hobbyist-affordable 141 analyzer, and easier and more versatile
than
> > an older 8569 analyzer. Unless your needs are exotic, the 859x series
will
> > be a good industrial choice.
> >
> > Ed
> > wb6wsn
>
>
> well some guy who has a company that i guess is in the business of
> buying refurbing and selling electronic equipment has one on ebay for
> about $2100.00. should i cross my fingers and go for it? he takes
> credit cards. he says it is working very well, it looks real good
> according the pics he has of it and it has a fresh calibration.
I can't assess risk for you, but $2k sounds like a fair price for a good
condition 8590.
Ed
wb6wsn
Dave Hall
This might be a bit off the exact topic but I have a friend who has a HP
141 and the horozontal display scan has shrunk and folded over on top of
itself. Having never worked on test equipment, I could only offer
generic possibilities, (Voltages, deflection transistors, caps?). Is
there are common part failure that can cause this to the best of your
knowlege?
Thanks,
Dave
Ed Price
> Ed Price wrote:
>
> > We were talking about repair and service equipment, not consumer items.
A
> > consumer item is expected to have a short life-cycle, and repairability
is
> > often not a concern.
>
> If you cannot see the relationship, then you need to stretch a bit.
>
> Everything in electronics, test equipment especially has grown in
> complexity and performance, as it has been reduced in size.
SNIP
> The "consumer grade" goodies in the test equipment market don't
> really need more than a simple calibration checking. I cannot tell
> you the last time my little Fluke DVM needed recalibration... Because it
> is 15 years old, and it has NEVER needed recalibration. Has something
> to do with the little fidgety custom components that are inside it.
> Same goes for my Tek 2465 scope.
>
> -Chuck
>
You keep mixing the needs of an enterprise with those of a hobbyist. True,
many of the people on the groups of this thread are electronics
professionals who also have an electronics hobby interest. My comments have
all been aimed toward the hobbyist. If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must not
apply to you.
A hobbyist doesn't send anything "out" for calibration; they rely on the
ability to cross-check their various gear with everything else in their
collection. Sometimes, they might be able to compare one of their items with
a professionally calibrated and traceable item. Or maybe they buy a new DMM,
that's rated for 0.1% (whatever) and then proceed to adjust the rest of
their stuff into agreement with that one new item.
My point is that old equipment is repairable. Your point is that newer
equipment is chock full of value, more reliable, and is easier to lift.
There's no contradiction between these positions.
BTW, your DVM always "needs" calibration, even if it is still within
tolerance every time it's checked. Nice to know that it's stable, but
nothing lives forever. As for "fidgety little components", should you ever
apply a few watts of RF to the input of your 2465, you'll find it very
difficult to repair by yourself, and the Tek bill for the job could very
well approach the replacement cost. If the same had happened to a 465, then
you would just be replacing a few small, precision resistors.
Ed
wb6wsn
Andrew Tweddle
Look at the 2W resistors and the output transistors in the output
deflection stages for a start.
Andrew
Chuck Harris
What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
professionals.
The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
mount technology are not repairable. The hybrid front end on the
2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology. From what I have heard, most
of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
I did find it to be the case with the output hybrid in HP's 86222A
sweeper plugin.
There would be no more point in taking your busted 2465 to Tek for
repair than there would be for your 465, they won't work on either.
Checked is not the same as calibration. The case doesn't even get
opened for "checked".
And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
is I truly enjoy my work!
-Chuck, WA3UQV
(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)
Dave Hall
Thank you!
Dave
gw
does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?
Chuck Harris
> Chuck Harris <cfha...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<bpfut4$dai$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
>>-Chuck, WA3UQV
> does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?
Way too new! I'm more interested in old PDP 8, stuff, 8/I's
in particular. Things that have absolutely no practical use ;-)
-Chuck
Bill Higdon
So Chuck your looking for a Trash 8/E rather than a Trash 80. BTW my
Trash 80 was a real Trash 80. R.S said it was uneconomical to repair,
read out of warrenty replaced a bad ttl chip and away it went. A friend
reworked the firmware to get rid of the infamous keyboard and cassette
problems(we rescued 8 of them from that dumpster).
Bill
Chuck Harris
> Chuck Harris wrote:
>
> So Chuck your looking for a Trash 8/E rather than a Trash 80. BTW my
> Trash 80 was a real Trash 80. R.S said it was uneconomical to repair,
> read out of warrenty replaced a bad ttl chip and away it went. A friend
> reworked the firmware to get rid of the infamous keyboard and cassette
> problems(we rescued 8 of them from that dumpster).
> Bill
>
Snort! That's a good one! I spent too much time using the original
TRS-80 to ever really want one. In one of my first consulting jobs
I wrote a bunch of drivers for a customer's Z80 controlled instrument
using the customer's TRS-80 as the development system. It worked just
fine, I guess... it got the job done, but I never did like it all that
much. I kind of liked the TRS80 IV, I think it was, that came out much
later.
-Chuck
Steve Nosko
Steve, k,9,d,c,i
"Chuck Harris" <cfha...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:bpgi00$frr$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
- - Bill - -
> FYI: I still use the Color Computer to do laser light shows.
> Steve, k,9,d,c,i
Good for you! I really felt stupid seeing mine in the trash can only a
year or two after having paid $300 for it.
Shoulda kept it? Nah.
Still have that little pocket version with 4k RAM, though. It'll come
in handy someday :-)
-Bill M
gw
perhaps one of you guys can tell me this. when you see a unit on ebay
and it says fresh calibration, what exactly does this mean to me as
the buyer? does this mean it will probably be operating ok for a few
years or is this something that has to be done yearly? for the home
shop hobbyist ? thanks.
Ed Price
SNIP
>
> does that mean you still have some use for trash 80's?
Sorry, I never had much use for TRS-80's. But I do have a Commodore PET; a
very original one (with the black tape deck). It has an IEEE-488 port, and a
Basic that can control any IEEE-488 instrument. And, considering that it has
a built-in monochrome monitor, it qualifies as a genuine boat-anchor, since
it glows in the dark. <g>
Ed
Ed Price
A commercial calibration implies no warranty of future reliability. It just
means that the unit was inspected, by a lab with traceable standards (to
NIST), and that equipment parameters were found to be within the specified
tolerances (or some adjustments we made to allow for proper performance).
Every equipment should be on a periodic schedule of calibration, possibly 6
months or 12 months. The interval is determined by the original
manufacturer's declaration, or from the class of equipment (is it a resistor
or a function generator or an oscilloscope), or from the accumulated record
of a device's calibration history. (A Metrology professional can make a case
for shorter or longer intervals, based on a review of the calibration
history.)
The calibration is valid as of that date only, although it's reasonable to
expect that the calibration will be valid for some time to come (unless the
shipper dropped it as it went out the cal lab's door!).
All that said, a traceable calibration is an indication that the equipment
has been treated in a professional manner, and I would view that as a
definite plus when considering a purchase.
Ed
WB6WSN
Ed Price
> Hi Ed,
>
> What I am NOT doing is trying to mix the needs of the hobbiest with
> the realities of companies that build for professionals. You are
> lamenting the fact that the newer gear is hard for hobbiests to
> maintain. That argument will go soft on HP or Tektronix, or any of
> several dozen other equipment manufacturers that make equipment for
> professionals.
That's my opinion. Do I care what Agilent or Tektronix thinks? Gee, do they
care what I think? And why are YOU worried about their feelings? Sounds like
your nose if pretty far up somebody's butt!
> The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
> technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
> mount technology are not repairable.
By the average hobbyist? I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!!
> The hybrid front end on the
> 2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
> like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology.
Sorry, I don't do watches. A "little optical help" isn't a magnifying lens
in a fluorescent work light. SM work calls for something like a B&L stereo
viewer, and that's as expensive as a very decent oscilloscope. BTW, turn on
your spell checker, a 1980's technology.
> From what I have heard, most
> of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
> faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
Well, don't let lack of direct knowledge slow down your opinions.
SNIP
> And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
> hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
> the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
> died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
> is I truly enjoy my work!
I wish you enjoyed reading the thread as well. I said you were either a
professional or a very rich hobbyist (as you had declared ownership of some
nice gear). OK, you are a professional. Do you hear me now? YOU ARE A
PROFESSIONAL!
> -Chuck, WA3UQV
>
> (I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
> thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)
Well, that's a good sign, as we have been yakking about this in the
boatanchors (and more) group. This is a hangout for hobbyists and very
frugal professionals.
Ed
WB6WSN
Chuck Harris
cleaned and calibrated by a technician who knew what he was
doing....
What it actually means is anybodies guess. It could be actually
calibrated, it could be that the guy bought it surplus, turned
it on, and it lit up.
The words "fresh calibration" without an express warranty are
worthless.
Most anything Tektronix or HP made will stay in calibration to
close enough for hobbiest use for years.
A real bonifide business won't be comfortable using test equipment
that is out of calibration for anything very important. It is
their assurance that all of the functions should be working properly.
-Chuck, WA3UQV
Chuck Harris
> That's my opinion. Do I care what Agilent or Tektronix thinks? Gee, do they
> care what I think? And why are YOU worried about their feelings? Sounds like
> your nose if pretty far up somebody's butt!
You should care. Unless you suddenly start building your own test
equipment, you are going to be "stuck" with using equipment geared
toward professionals, and manufactured by companies like HP(Agilent)
or tektronix.
OBTW, can you think of a less vulgar way of expressing your opinions?
I have no financial interest in any test equipment manufacturer. They
don't give me special favors, or punishments for stating my opinions.
>>The simple fact that your abilities at repair stop at thru hole,
>>technology, doesn't mean that devices that use hybrids, and surface
>>mount technology are not repairable.
>
>
> By the average hobbyist? I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!!
The "average hobbyist" once made complete radios from hunks
of rock, metal and wood. A pretty extreme feat for the time.
Now if it requires a little study, or the acquisition of some
special skill, or tools, it is deemed impossible.
>
>>The hybrid front end on the
>>2465 is quite repairable, but requires a little optical help, just
>>like watch repair, an 1800's tecnology.
>
>
> Sorry, I don't do watches. A "little optical help" isn't a magnifying lens
> in a fluorescent work light. SM work calls for something like a B&L stereo
> viewer, and that's as expensive as a very decent oscilloscope. BTW, turn on
> your spell checker, a 1980's technology.
>
At least when I post, my spelling is the result of my own efforts.
Yours, apparently, comes from the efforts of a machine. I don't
think it hurt your eyes all that much to stumble over one of my very
few typo's. When you type at over 100WPM, a few will sneak in now and
then.
The parts in these hybrids are very large compared with mechanical watch
parts. A cheapy stereo dissection microscope works very nicely...
easily had for $250 new, or $100 on ebay. Back in the days of yore,
adjusted to today's dollar, a soldering gun cost as much.
>
>>From what I have heard, most
>>of the parts in the hybrid are standard off the shelf surface mount
>>faire... I have no direct knowledge of whether this is actually true.
>
>
> Well, don't let lack of direct knowledge slow down your opinions.
You have some direct knowledge that says differently? I know that there
will be some parts that are special, but I doubt all are. I have
several friends that do a good business repairing these "special"
hybrids, they aren't great big companies, just individual hams that saw
a market.
I haven't needed to go inside the hybrids on my 2465, mostly because I
don't put my scope into positions where it is likely it will get zapped.
>>And to your assertion that I am a rich hobbiest, I am not an electronics
>>hobbiest at all! I am a self-employed electrical engineer, and I use
>>the test equipment I own to earn a living. Sadly, for me electronics
>>died as a hobby when I started getting paid to do it. The happy part
>>is I truly enjoy my work!
>
>
> I wish you enjoyed reading the thread as well. I said you were either a
> professional or a very rich hobbyist (as you had declared ownership of some
> nice gear). OK, you are a professional. Do you hear me now? YOU ARE A
> PROFESSIONAL!
>
REALLY?
------ your exact words------------
.............................If you have a 2465B scope (one of the
finest analog scopes I have ever used), then you are one extremely wealthy
hobbyist, and the economic constraints most everyone else lives by must
not apply to you.
------ your exact words -----------
Stop trying to bend the record to make me look bad, and you look good.
>>(I will admit that VERY obsolete electronics retains a hobby sort of
>> thrill for me... Old tube gear, and old minicomputers.)
>
>
> Well, that's a good sign, as we have been yakking about this in the
> boatanchors (and more) group. This is a hangout for hobbyists and very
> frugal professionals.
It is a hangout for people with an interest in boatanchors, nothing
more, nothing less.
-Chuck, WA3UQV
gw
damn ....commodores.....i almost forgot about them......do you
remember the compaq 'portable' that about broke your back when you
carried it?
Dave VanHorn
> By the average hobbyist? I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!!
I work on SMD all the time. All that's needed is a 40W temperature
controlled iron, a roll of good solder braid, and 63/37 solder with internal
no-clean flux.
I go down as far as 0402 components, which look like sand, and have replaced
100 pin QFP chips without problem. BGAs are where the hobbyist becomes
incapable of working on them. (Ball Grid Arrays)
Ralph Mowery
">
> damn ....commodores.....i almost forgot about them......do you
> remember the compaq 'portable' that about broke your back when you
> carried it?
Yes, and I came within one day of throwing one down some stairs to put it
out of service so I could get a laptop at work.
Clifton T. Sharp Jr.
> damn ....commodores.....i almost forgot about them......do you
> remember the compaq 'portable' that about broke your back when you
> carried it?
Repaired one once. Hell of a time finding a diode for the power supply.
--
"Look, we have exhausted virtually all our diplomatic effort to get the Iraqis
to comply with their own agreements and with international law. Given that,
what other option is there but to force them to do so?"
-- Tom Daschle, Feb. 11, 1998