Cross band repeater operation
Tom Neal
Most mobile dual band radios now come equiped for cross-band repeater
operation. In this mode, you can use a HT tuned on the 440 MHZ band,
to transmit to your mobile radio which cross-band repeats your signal
onto the 2 meter band. Likewise the mobile radio will cross-band
repeat from the 2 meter band (output of a repeater) back on to the 440
MHZ band to be recieved on your HT.
As I understand the FCC regs, it is required to have automated station
IDing on the 440 MHZ output of the mobile radio. However, I don't
know of a single dual band modile radio which provides the capability
for automatic IDing. Does this mean that everyone using their radio's
cross-band repeat mode are violating FCC regs?
Anyone have practical advise here? I would really like to use the
cross-band operating mode on my mobile radio.
Thanks,
Tom
Ned Bolle
In article <33dffef...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
If you are using the mobile to repeat both the 2M and the 440 Signals, most
likely, you are violating the regs. When you tranmit on 440 (with your
handheld), you will ID your handheld AND the crossband repeater (The mobile
rig). When a 2M signal is repeated, there is no ID.
If you are using the crossband repeater to link to a repeater, a possible
solution would be to use a dual band handheld and to have the mobile repeat
ONLY the 440 signal (which you ID when you ID your handheld). you would then
listen to the out put of the 2M repeater on the handheld. Admittedly, this
would only open the fringes of the repeater coverage where you could thill
hear the repeater but didn't have the signal out to bring it up.
Even this practice MAY not comply to the letter of the law as far as ID'ing.
It certainly complies with the intent. I do not know of this being fully
interpreted by the FCC.
It certainly would be nice if the manufacturers would build in an ID'er when
they build a remote controlable crossband repeat function.
I did a lot of backcountry skiing and hiking this spring (and into the
summer). I did run into a couple of situations where such a set up would have
been useful, but fortunately, didn't have the need. (I did leave my mobile in
"RC" mode, set up to uni-directionally repeat).
Hope this helps.
nb
Charles W. McMullen
In article <33dffef...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> trn...@ix.netcom.com (Tom Neal) writes:
>From: trn...@ix.netcom.com (Tom Neal)
>Subject: Cross band repeater operation
>Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:04:37 GMT
>Most mobile dual band radios now come equiped for cross-band repeater
>operation. In this mode, you can use a HT tuned on the 440 MHZ band,
>to transmit to your mobile radio which cross-band repeats your signal
>onto the 2 meter band. Likewise the mobile radio will cross-band
>repeat from the 2 meter band (output of a repeater) back on to the 440
>MHZ band to be recieved on your HT.
>As I understand the FCC regs, it is required to have automated station
>IDing on the 440 MHZ output of the mobile radio. However, I don't
>know of a single dual band modile radio which provides the capability
>for automatic IDing. Does this mean that everyone using their radio's
>cross-band repeat mode are violating FCC regs?
>Anyone have practical advise here? I would really like to use the
>cross-band operating mode on my mobile radio.
>Thanks,
>Tom
The FCC DOES NOT require that repeaters (or any other station for that matter)
identify automatically. This is normally done with repeaters to take the
burden of sending the repeater ID of f of the user. If your call sign is
W3XYZ and you're operating through your mobile rig running as a crossband
repeater all you have to do is Identify as such by saying something like "This
is W3XYZ via W3XYZ repeater." If you identify like this at the beginning and
end of each contact and at least every ten minutes during a QSO, you're
perfectly legal.
73, Chuck - K3CM
Steven M. Palm
Tom Neal wrote:
> As I understand the FCC regs, it is required to have automated station
>
> IDing on the 440 MHZ output of the mobile radio. However, I don't
> know of a single dual band modile radio which provides the capability
> for automatic IDing. Does this mean that everyone using their radio's
>
> cross-band repeat mode are violating FCC regs?
I'd say yes, you are correct. However, you can flip over on the 2m
output
and transmit your call every ten minutes, thus causing your radio to ID
with your call sign on it's 440 output. This, as far as I can tell,
would satisfy
the requirements. The other possible "cover" is to have the trustee of
the
repeater you are repeating act as a trustee/control op for your 440
transmitter, which is probably not likely. :)
Mickey McInnis
> >operation. In this mode, you can use a HT tuned on the 440 MHZ band,
> >to transmit to your mobile radio which cross-band repeats your signal
> >onto the 2 meter band. Likewise the mobile radio will cross-band
> >repeat from the 2 meter band (output of a repeater) back on to the 440
> >MHZ band to be recieved on your HT.
> >
> >IDing on the 440 MHZ output of the mobile radio. However, I don't
> >know of a single dual band modile radio which provides the capability
> >for automatic IDing. Does this mean that everyone using their radio's
> >cross-band repeat mode are violating FCC regs?
> >
> >cross-band operating mode on my mobile radio.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Tom
There is at least one big problem with using your own rig in "cross-band
repeat" mode. If, for instance, you're using it to repeat your 440 HT
into a local 2 M Repeater, if your "repeater" radio picks up
interference,
intermod, or other hams on the 440 side, you will retransmit this into
the 2 M repeater. You can reduce this somewhat by having tone squelch
or
code squelch on the "Handy talky" side, but you may still cause
problems.
If you're doing two-way crossband repeat, the offending ham won't even
hear the noise on his HT. I've heard this happen a number of times
lately.
I've also heard it said that crossband repeat is always in violation of
the rules unless the repeating radio is under the control of a control
operator. There are only certain provisions in the rules to allow
unattended operation, and using your base rig or mobile rig to extend
the range of your HT is not one of them. I haven't checked this out in
the rules myself yet, though.
Julian Frost
Hi Chuck,
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Charles W. McMullen wrote:
> The FCC DOES NOT require that repeaters (or any other station for that
> matter) identify automatically. This is normally done with repeaters
> to take the burden of sending the repeater ID of f of the user. If your
> call sign is W3XYZ and you're operating through your mobile rig running
> as a crossband repeater all you have to do is Identify as such by saying
> something like "This is W3XYZ via W3XYZ repeater." If you identify like
> this at the beginning and end of each contact and at least every ten
> minutes during a QSO, you're perfectly legal.
My understanding is that what you have written is true, but it doesn't
quite go far enough. When talking about cross-band repeaters, the
repeating radio (your mobile rig) transmits on TWO bands (in this case, 2m
and 440).
Each transmitter must identify itself.
When you use your HT (on, say, 440), your mobile radio (repeater)
retransmits your HT's signal on 2m. When you ID (on the HT), you are
identifying your HT. Because your signal is also being retransmitted by
your mobile rig, that ID also identifies your mobile (repeater) rig... BUT
ONLY ON 2m, as your mobile station is transmitting *only* on 2m at that
time.
The problem is, that your mobile (repeater) rig also retransmits incoming
2m signals on the 440 band. To remain legal, your mobile (repeater) rig
must identify itself on each band on which it transmits. Unless you can
get your mobile rig to ID iteself on 440, it (you) are operating
illegally.
As one other poster pointed out, this can be accomplished by switching
your HT to 2m and transmitting your call... that way, your mobile rig will
retransmit your HT's signal on the 440 band, and *that* ID will serve just
fine as proper ID for the 440 side of your mobile's transmission.
A much more elegant method would be to have an automatic ID circuit build
into the mobile (repeater) rig... hence the original question.
Julian
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Timothy...@mk.com
> Tom Neal wrote:
>
> As I understand the FCC regs, it is required to have automated station
>
> IDing on the 440 MHZ output of the mobile radio. However, I don't
> know of a single dual band modile radio which provides the capability
> for automatic IDing. Does this mean that everyone using their radio's
> cross-band repeat mode are violating FCC regs?
>
I've beleive it is strictly speaking a violation unless you manually ID the uhf transmissions per
the regulations.
As a question, I understand the State Highway Patrol cruisers typically run vhf low band gear
on statewide repeater sytems and use HT's as mobile extenders while on foot, two way cross band
repeating between vhf-low band and uhf. The question is do they ID their uhf transmissions. As
far as I can recollect they are doing exactly the same thing amateurs are doing and I doubt they
abide by regulations which differ from part 97 very much.
Any scanner listeners ever hear an ID on these transmissions???
Tim
Tom Neal
As several responders have said the problem is with the 440 MHZ link
from the mobile radio back to the HT.
I can not understand why the manufacturers are putting out some many
radios which encourage illegal operation in the cross band repeat
mode. With all the options being built into new radios why dosen't
even one manufacturer buildin an automatic CW IDer? On the newer
Yaesu HTs (FT50, VX1R...), one of the options is ARTS which sends poll
signals between two similarly equiped HTs to determine if they are
within simplex range. Periodically the HT will automatically CW ID.
How hard would it be to buildin the same type CW IDer for cross-band
repeater operation?
Wake up HAM radio manufacturers!
With the new very small, very low power HTs now coming on the market,
cross band repeating is very attractive. Its about time that we could
buy a "off the shelf" radio that can operate legally in this mode.
Tom
Dennis Machie
no I think if u check the fcc rules u will find that this falls under aux
operation which it states u do not have to have an automatic IDer in
place..read the rules carefully,I did and that's how I decipher
them...Dennis..
Tom Neal <trn...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<33e2926...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
Tom Neal
Well according to the book that the ARRL publishes on FCC part 97
rules, a crossband repeater is considered a remote base and the UHF
transmissions must be IDed. I don't know if the couple paragraphs in
their book are directly copied from FCC part 97 or not.
Tom
On 2 Aug 1997 22:04:30 GMT, "Dennis Machie" <n1...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
Dennis Machie
now read the part abt aux operations..Dennis
Tom Neal <trn...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<33e46dd...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
Jack Albert
Tom wrote:
>
>
> > >> I can not understand why the manufacturers are putting out some many
> > >> radios which encourage illegal operation in the cross band repeat
> > >> mode. With all the options being built into new radios why dosen't
> > >> even one manufacturer buildin an automatic CW IDer? On the newer
> > >> Yaesu HTs (FT50, VX1R...), one of the options is ARTS which sends poll
> > >> signals between two similarly equiped HTs to determine if they are
> > >> within simplex range. Periodically the HT will automatically CW ID.
> > >> How hard would it be to buildin the same type CW IDer for cross-band
> > >> repeater operation?
> > >>
> > >> Wake up HAM radio manufacturers!
> > >>
> > >> With the new very small, very low power HTs now coming on the market,
> > >> cross band repeating is very attractive. Its about time that we could
> > >> buy a "off the shelf" radio that can operate legally in this mode.
> > >>
> > >> Tom
> > >>
Since the mid 80's I operated a 1 1/4 to 2 meter link using an Icom 3AT
and 2AT. To control and communicate
with the link, I used a second 3AT. The 3AT/2AT was linked together
using a digital control "black box" that
had a automatic ID'er, time out and audio circuits, and frequency
control. The 2AT had a rear mounted D25 FM
connector that mated with a D25 M on the black box. When 000 MHz was
selected on the 2AT's thumbwheel switch,
full frequency control, via the black box, was possible. The 1 1/4
meter side used a simplex frequency with
vox operation in both directions.
Last year I replaced the link with an Icom 2700 and using 70cm, I have
similar capabilities. I'm
working on a new black box that will include an auxilary receiver and a
duplexer for full duplex on 70cm, an
automatic Ider and DTMF decoder to control the receiver. The receiver
will interface with the 2700.
--
Jack Albert WA9FVP (Fellow Radio Hacker)
Tellabs Operations Inc.
1000 Remington Blvd Voice (630) 378-6201
Bolingbrook, IL 60440 FAX (630) 378-5790
Barry O'Grady
Julian Frost <jfr...@odaiko.ss.uci.edu> wrote:
:Hi Chuck,
:
:On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Charles W. McMullen wrote:
:
:> The FCC DOES NOT require that repeaters (or any other station for that
:> matter) identify automatically. This is normally done with repeaters
:> to take the burden of sending the repeater ID of f of the user. If your
:> call sign is W3XYZ and you're operating through your mobile rig running
:> as a crossband repeater all you have to do is Identify as such by saying
:> something like "This is W3XYZ via W3XYZ repeater." If you identify like
:> this at the beginning and end of each contact and at least every ten
:> minutes during a QSO, you're perfectly legal.
:
:My understanding is that what you have written is true, but it doesn't
:quite go far enough. When talking about cross-band repeaters, the
:repeating radio (your mobile rig) transmits on TWO bands (in this case, 2m
:and 440).
You are quite wrong there.
When using cross band repeat the mobile set transmits only on ONE band.
Whether you use cross band repeat between two HTs or between HT and
repeater the mobile set receives on one band only and TXs on the other
band only.
:Each transmitter must identify itself.
That is done when you identify on your HT. The HT is identified and
the ident is relayed by your mobile set.
:When you use your HT (on, say, 440), your mobile radio (repeater)
:retransmits your HT's signal on 2m. When you ID (on the HT), you are
:identifying your HT. Because your signal is also being retransmitted by
:your mobile rig, that ID also identifies your mobile (repeater) rig... BUT
:ONLY ON 2m, as your mobile station is transmitting *only* on 2m at that
:time.
Quite so.
:The problem is, that your mobile (repeater) rig also retransmits incoming
:2m signals on the 440 band. To remain legal, your mobile (repeater) rig
:must identify itself on each band on which it transmits. Unless you can
:get your mobile rig to ID iteself on 440, it (you) are operating
:illegally.
You do not understand how cross band repeat works. It is a one way thing
only as far as the mobile set is concerned.
:As one other poster pointed out, this can be accomplished by switching
:your HT to 2m and transmitting your call... that way, your mobile rig will
:retransmit your HT's signal on the 440 band, and *that* ID will serve just
:fine as proper ID for the 440 side of your mobile's transmission.
:
:A much more elegant method would be to have an automatic ID circuit build
:into the mobile (repeater) rig... hence the original question.
If you understood cross band repeat you would see that it is only
necessary to ident on your HT as normal.
Barry
=====================================
To reply via email please remove the XX from my
return address.
Christopher W. (Chris) Boone
Dennis Machie wrote:
>
> no I think if u check the fcc rules u will find that this falls under aux
> operation which it states u do not have to have an automatic IDer in
> place..read the rules carefully,I did and that's how I decipher
> them...Dennis..
Dennis, ALL TXs MUST be IDed.....period.....If the UHF TX that is
rpting 2mtrs is NOT operated by the rptr trustee or the other station
on 2mtr simplex I am listening to via UHF, then it HAS to ID with MY
call......aux or rptr or anything...
Reread 97.119...
Chris
WB5ITT
> >
Christopher W. (Chris) Boone
Timothy...@mk.com wrote:
>
> As a question, I understand the State Highway Patrol cruisers typically run vhf low band gear
> on statewide repeater sytems and use HT's as mobile extenders while on foot, two way cross band
> repeating between vhf-low band and uhf. The question is do they ID their uhf transmissions. As
> far as I can recollect they are doing exactly the same thing amateurs are doing and I doubt they
> abide by regulations which differ from part 97 very much.
>
LMR vehicular rptrs do NOT operate under Part 97 but rather Part 90..
the rules ARE different for them than us...(I know...I was a telecom
tech for a public utility that used uhf to lowband crossband mobile
rptrs at my suggestion....when we filed for the UHF license, the
rules stated the HTs did not have to ID the crossband rptr callsign..
only the mobile callsign of the lowband side...which was KA3236..the
lowband bases had separate calls...the UHF side was limited to 1 watt
max! Not 10 or more as some amateur use)
73
Chris
WB5ITT
former Telecom Egr Tech for Entergy, Texas
Christopher W. (Chris) Boone
Tom Neal wrote:
>
> Well according to the book that the ARRL publishes on FCC part 97
> rules, a crossband repeater is considered a remote base and the UHF
> transmissions must be IDed. I don't know if the couple paragraphs in
> their book are directly copied from FCC part 97 or not.
>
> Tom
>
(Remote bases do not appear ANYWHERE in Part 97..)
A remotely controlled station may NOT be automatically controlled..
a rptr may....so 99.9% of the time, the crossband system is a rptr...
unless you can shut it down via RF, etc immediately...
73
Chris
WB5ITT
rptr and remote base op since 197
Thomas Gasta
Cross band repeat comes in two flavors. "Uni-directional" and
"Bi-Directional". I would guess that in the situation you are adressing,
Bi-directional is the most common mode. HT keys up on UHF, Mobile
Repeater (in Bi-Directional Mode) receives the UHF signal and
rebroadcasts it on a selected VHF frequency. So far so good, but how
does your UHF HT listen to the response from the VHF side. Well the Japs
figured that you might want to hear the response so they have the radio
stop transmitting on VHF when your HTs UHF signal goes away (brilliant
idea, prevents a lockup). At this point your mobile now receives on VHF,
and retransmits the VHF signal back to your little UHF portable by means
of the UHF transmitter in the mobile repeater. This is the whole idea of
the cross-band repeat functions of most ham rigs so equipped. It can and
has been a problem. Somebody decides to do this with the local 10-4/24 2
meter repeater and picks a "unused" UHF freq for the HT to mobile link,
say 440.5. Unfortunately, Mr. repeater maker, without benefit of the
frequency coordinators wisdom, just choose a remote reciver link
frequency for a popular repeater. Now, mr mobile repeater maker ties up
a repeater he knows nothing about, and is 100 milliwatt UHF portable may
not be strong enough to reach the link receiver, so the folks are at a
loss as to who is doing this wonderful thing, hence one possibility as
to the desire, if not regulatory need for ID by ALL the transmitters. It
happens around Columbus all the time. Thank God for DPL!
Tom
Christopher W. (Chris) Boone
Barry O'Grady wrote:
>
> You are quite wrong there.
> When using cross band repeat the mobile set transmits only on ONE band.
> Whether you use cross band repeat between two HTs or between HT and
> repeater the mobile set receives on one band only and TXs on the other
> band only.
Ahh YOU donot understand how a crossband dualband mobile CAN operate..
My TM742 CAN and DOES crossband from UHF to 2mtr AND back again when
a signal on 2 appears...it repeats it BACK to UHF....
YOU ARE talking about ONE WAY...MOST dualband rigs will do TWO WAY cross
band rpt...
>
> That is done when you identify on your HT. The HT is identified and
> the ident is relayed by your mobile set.
Again, the UHF TX rpting 2mtrs back TO ME is NOT legally IDed unless
it has a CW id hooked to it OR I key up on 2 and ID the UHF TX myself
(provided I can get into the 2mtr side)...
>
> You do not understand how cross band repeat works. It is a one way thing
> only as far as the mobile set is concerned.
Again, you are wrong....but wait...you have a foreign email address??
This question was concerning US amateur operations....its different
overseas..
>
> If you understood cross band repeat you would see that it is only
> necessary to ident on your HT as normal.
IF you had a dualband radio, you would see that what the previous
poster said was 100% correct and you are talking about ONEWAY crossband,
while the rest of us are talking twoway half duplex crossband..
Chris
WB5ITT
Julian Frost
On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Barry O'Grady wrote:
> Julian Frost <jfr...@odaiko.ss.uci.edu> wrote:
> :My understanding is that what you have written is true, but it doesn't
> :quite go far enough. When talking about cross-band repeaters, the
> :repeating radio (your mobile rig) transmits on TWO bands (in this case, 2m
> :and 440).
>
> You are quite wrong there.
> When using cross band repeat the mobile set transmits only on ONE band.
> Whether you use cross band repeat between two HTs or between HT and
> repeater the mobile set receives on one band only and TXs on the other
> band only.
For ONE way cross-band repeating, this is true.
Most radios allow TWO way cross-band repeating, where the 2m signal (for
example) of the repeater's output is retransmitted by the mobile rig on
440 to the HT, and the 440 signal of the HT is retransmitted to the 2m
input of the repeater.
Your *mobile* transmitter must be identified on each band that it operates
on. In TWO way cross-banding, you *mobile* rig must identify on both 2m
and 440 (in the example above). If you're using an HT on 440, and your
mobile rig retransmits your ID on 2m, then you have successfully
identified your HT (440) and your mobile transmitter *on 2m* (because your
mobile rig is transmitting everything you send on 2m). Your *mobile* rig
has *not* transmitted your identification on 440, and it never will,
unless you switch over to 2m and give your ID there. Having someone else
give your ID for you (on 2m) doesn't constitute a legal ID.
> :Each transmitter must identify itself.
>
> That is done when you identify on your HT. The HT is identified and
> the ident is relayed by your mobile set.
Not true in TWO-way cross-banding. *Your* signal is identified only on one
band, not the other, and your mobile rig is transmitting a signal (yours,
on one band, and someone elses' on the other) on TWO bands. Therefore, you
must identify on BOTH bands.
> :The problem is, that your mobile (repeater) rig also retransmits incoming
> :2m signals on the 440 band. To remain legal, your mobile (repeater) rig
> :must identify itself on each band on which it transmits. Unless you can
> :get your mobile rig to ID iteself on 440, it (you) are operating
> :illegally.
>
> You do not understand how cross band repeat works. It is a one way thing
> only as far as the mobile set is concerned.
Not at all.
> If you understood cross band repeat you would see that it is only
> necessary to ident on your HT as normal.
Again, this is incorrect.
Curtis Wheeler
Tom Neal wrote:
>
> Well according to the book that the ARRL publishes on FCC part 97
> rules, a crossband repeater is considered a remote base and the UHF
> transmissions must be IDed. I don't know if the couple paragraphs in
> their book are directly copied from FCC part 97 or not.
Hmmm. Wonder how they come to that conclusion?
Is a mobile that is functioning as a cross band repeater under remote or
automatic control? When I put my mobile into cross band repeat mode it
is all automatic - I have no remote control capability over it. In this
case it is automatically retransmitting the signal of another amateur
station (mine... and whoever is on the other side of the cross band).
So by definition, when my station is cross banding for me, it's a
repeater, not a remote base.
> On 2 Aug 1997 22:04:30 GMT, "Dennis Machie" <n1...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >no I think if u check the fcc rules u will find that this falls under aux
> >operation which it states u do not have to have an automatic IDer in
> >place..read the rules carefully,I did and that's how I decipher
> >them...Dennis..
Auxilary, repeater, remote... doesn't matter. There is no requirement
for "automatic" ID.
> >Tom Neal <trn...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> ><33e2926...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> >> How hard would it be to buildin the same type CW IDer for cross-band
> >> repeater operation?
> >>
> >> Wake up HAM radio manufacturers!
> >>
> >> With the new very small, very low power HTs now coming on the market,
> >> cross band repeating is very attractive. Its about time that we could
> >> buy a "off the shelf" radio that can operate legally in this mode.
Sheeez. I admit to being pretty much just an appliance operator when it
comes to everyday ham radio... but how hard can it be to add your own
IDer to your system? Do the "manufacturers" have to do everything???
Something that just plugs into your mic connector when you need it? You
don't even have to build the IDer - you can buy them on small boards
from people like ComSpec. You can put an "ID-8" (isn't that CSI's
little IDer?) into a matchbox with a pigtail that jacks into the radio
when needed.
--
Curtis