need info; linear using an 833A
Steve
a single 833A tube. Its beautifully built. So far I have not been
able to find any plans or schematics for an amp that uses this
tube. Has anyone seen an article in QST, Ham Radio, or other
magazine of an amp using an 833A? No luck with a web search.
TIA
Steve W6SSP
p.s.-it has a tuned grid circuit
co_f...@yahoo.com
Probably not a "linear". Most likely a class C amp.
Paul, KD7HB
Richard Knoppow
"Steve" <za...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4ad73e93$0$1970$742e...@news.sonic.net...
see if they have recommended operating conditions or even a
sample circuit for using an 833 as a linear.
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Steve
not RF tubes. They are supposedly usable to 30 MHz but have
yet to find a real world RF application other than the amp I have.
I'll trace out the wiring and come up with a schematic. Once thats
done I'll be able to figure out how its biased.
Steve
"Richard Knoppow" <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ILWdnXsw-Na-EUrX...@earthlink.com...
Richard Knoppow
> So far all commercial applications I've found are as
> modulators,
> not RF tubes. They are supposedly usable to 30 MHz but
> have
> yet to find a real world RF application other than the amp
> I have.
> I'll trace out the wiring and come up with a schematic.
> Once thats
> done I'll be able to figure out how its biased.
> Steve
>
> "Richard Knoppow" <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> message
> news:ILWdnXsw-Na-EUrX...@earthlink.com...
>>
>> "Steve" <za...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>> news:4ad73e93$0$1970$742e...@news.sonic.net...
833A's were widely used in AM broadcast transmitters
both as finals and modulators of about 500W to 1KW rigs (RCA
BT-1 etc.) and as drivers in higher power transmitters. I've
seen designs for ham transmitters using them but I don't
know if any commercially made _ham_ transmitters did.
Antonio Vernucci
> modulators of about 500W to 1KW rigs (RCA BT-1 etc.) and as drivers in higher
> power transmitters. I've seen designs for ham transmitters using them but I
> don't know if any commercially made _ham_ transmitters did.
>
>
> --
> Richard Knoppow
> Los Angeles
> WB6KBL
> dick...@ix.netcom.com
On page:
http://www.criticalradio.com/833%20Rig%20Project/Web%20Pages/Text%20Article.htm
you find the diagrams of an AM transmitter using two 833s in parallel (class C),
modulated by a push-pull pair of 833s.
Reducing the grid bias down to about -70V, you may operate the 833s in class B
for linear operation, still grid-driven.
It may however not be easy to maintain the neutralization bridge nulled on the
whole 3 - 30 MHz frequency range, and you may have to switch different
capacitors in the bridge on the various bands.
Alternately, you may try a grounded-grid filament-driven configuration. You
should then keep the filament at about +70V with respect to ground (using a 100W
NPN power transistor with a 70V zener between collector and base). I however
fear it may be hard to drive.
73
Tony I0JX
MoiInAust
including a push-pull 813 amp but I haven't found a single 813 design yet.
About that time perhaps...
"Steve" <za...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4ad73e93$0$1970$742e...@news.sonic.net...
Tim Shoppa
As others said, most usefully class C, not linear. If it really does
work well on 20, 15, 10M I'd be impressed. The 833A specs said it was
good to something like 30 or 50MHz but really the interelement
capacitances make it most perfectly suited for stuff under 1.5MHz, and
20M is probably really pushing it.
833A operating points for several different classes of service are in
"RCA Air Cooled Transmitting Tubes", TT-3. Online at
http://www.pmillett.com/tubedata/TT3.pdf
With those numbers and the "generic triode amp" schematics from any
ARRL handbook from 1940 till 1965 you are good to go.
Unlike modern screen grid or triode-in-grounded-grid amps,
neutralization is a big deal. The handbook gives several different
ways to do it but I know of none that would work from 80M to 10M. The
older (pre-mid-50's) handbooks have more details and hands-on advice
for triode neutralization than the later ones, when they pretty much
assumed that everyone would just use screen grid tubes or, later after
SSB came in, grounded grid.
Here's what I think came from some late 60's or 70's publication (some
elements look like ARRL handbook drawings but others definitely
aren't...):
http://www.mines.uidaho.edu/~glowbugs/tx/Universal%20Amp.pdf
They kinda sidestep the whole neutralization issue by swamping the
833A grid with a 50 ohm resistor, unlike yours that has a tuned grid,
and I really doubt the linearity.
BTW, that TT-3 book is the best tube porn ever.
Tim N3QE
Richard Knoppow
"Tim Shoppa" <sho...@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message
news:f18ac14b-bc36-42c3...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
Tim N3QE
There is a lot of very good stuff on Pete's web site.
I have an actual TT-3 in front of me. On page 91 there
is a chart showing the effect of frequency on output power
and efficiency and also allowable plate voltage up to about
150 mhz. Its obvious the tube falls off rapidly beyond its
full rating frequency of 30 mhz but most of the other tubes
available at the time would do no better although
plate-to-filament capacitance of the contemporary Eimac
triodes was a lot lower. Their maximum rating frequency
limit was 40 mhz.
Tim Shoppa
> I have an actual TT-3 in front of me.
I've got one too. Best tube pr0n ever!
> On page 91 there
> is a chart showing the effect of frequency on output power
> and efficiency and also allowable plate voltage up to about
> 150 mhz. Its obvious the tube falls off rapidly beyond its
> full rating frequency of 30 mhz but most of the other tubes
> available at the time would do no better although
> plate-to-filament capacitance of the contemporary Eimac
> triodes was a lot lower. Their maximum rating frequency
> limit was 40 mhz.
I'm not exactly saying that RCA lied in their graphs, but somehow what
is published there is not particularly useful for ham amp use.
I know that 833A's work in diathermy machines, and I think that those
were circa 27MHz at least in the 30's and 40's. So obviously in the
right kind of circuit I think they are useful (if maybe not top
efficiency) at those frequencies.
But my experiments with them in ham amps showed that I was unable to
get any usable output above 20M with a single tube. Meaning, I was
putting more power into the tube than was coming out. I think in push
pull some of the strays could cancel but bandswitching all the
inductor sections (as opposed to plug-in coilsets) for push pull is
onerous.
I will not really believe a 80M-10M grid-driven 833A actually working
usefully on the upper bands. I'm sure the OP has a very nicely
constructed box. I just won't believe that it's useful on 15M or 10M
until I see it working there. And even on the lower bands the problem
of neutralizing the circuit across band changes looks hairy. With plug-
in coilsets that changed the neutralization out with each band change,
I can see it. Bandswitching all that seems completely ungainly.
All just IMHO. I fully share everyone's fascination with grid-driven
big triodes and love playing with my 833A's and their link-coupled
output and neutralization networks in that spirit. But grid-driven
triodes just do not fit into the "twist the knob on the front panel to
change bands all the way from 80M to 10M" picture that modern hams
have of a linear amp: neutralization across just a single band can get
hairy, never mind across several octaves of RF.
That 60's article showing the 833A in a 80-40-20M amp is kinda clever
in sidestepping the neutralization issue by just swamping the grid
with a honking huge 50 ohm noninductive power resistor, but my
estimation is that more than half the drive power gets turned into
heat and never hits the grid. And note that they don't claim it'll
work well above 20M
There's good reasons why from the 50's onward, the beam power tubes
and grounded grid triodes have ruled: neutralization is a zillion
times easier, bandswitching from 80M to 10M is not so hard, linearity
is useful for SSB, etc.
Tim N3QE
Scott Dorsey
>I'm not exactly saying that RCA lied in their graphs, but somehow what
>is published there is not particularly useful for ham amp use.
>
>I know that 833A's work in diathermy machines, and I think that those
>were circa 27MHz at least in the 30's and 40's. So obviously in the
>right kind of circuit I think they are useful (if maybe not top
>efficiency) at those frequencies.
>
>But my experiments with them in ham amps showed that I was unable to
>get any usable output above 20M with a single tube. Meaning, I was
>putting more power into the tube than was coming out. I think in push
>pull some of the strays could cancel but bandswitching all the
>inductor sections (as opposed to plug-in coilsets) for push pull is
>onerous.
I once built a push-pull class C amplifier using 833 tubes, with three
continuously tuned inductors that could handle 80M through 20M. There
was some definite power loss at 20M, but it wasn't to the point of
having negative gain. Plate modulation using some kind of big
lamp ballast transformer that I found.
I was also running the 833 well below the maximum rated B+, in part
because I had a junkbox transformer and in part because I was using
833 tubes that were pulls from a local AM station which I was getting
for free.
>that 60's article showing the 833A in a 80-40-20M amp is kinda clever
>in sidestepping the neutralization issue by just swamping the grid
>with a honking huge 50 ohm noninductive power resistor, but my
>estimation is that more than half the drive power gets turned into
>heat and never hits the grid. And note that they don't claim it'll
>work well above 20M
These days, gain is cheaper than it was back then, too. But it looks
like an interesting design.
>There's good reasons why from the 50's onward, the beam power tubes
>and grounded grid triodes have ruled: neutralization is a zillion
>times easier, bandswitching from 80M to 10M is not so hard, linearity
>is useful for SSB, etc.
Sure, but can you get them free out of someone's trash? All the big
planar grid tubes I found being thrown out are destroyed...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Tim Shoppa
> I once built a push-pull class C amplifier using 833 tubes, with three
> continuously tuned inductors that could handle 80M through 20M.
Kewl. Neutralization in push-pull is in my experience much more
tractable because you just tap off the signal from each phase, feed it
through the neutralization cap which is nominally identical to the
plate-grid capacitance, and into the grid of the opposing tube.
Mathematically the plate-grid capacitance is constant as you change
bands so to zeroth order neutralization may not have to be adjusted
for band changes. Did the same neutralization setting work across the
bands?
I once tried to imagine a scheme where all 4 inductor taps in a push-
pull front-panel-bandswitching scheme were switched with ceramic
switch wafers actually inside each of the coils, and all the wafers
are ganged with plastic cog belts. In the end I went with a much
simpler plug-in coilset scheme.
> Sure, but can you get them free out of someone's trash? All the big
> planar grid tubes I found being thrown out are destroyed...
It just occurred to me why ham amps with driven grids are so hard to
neutralize compared to diathermy machines that donate their old tubes
to the projects: You don't need to neutralize a diathermy machine at
all!
Tim N3QE
Scott Dorsey
>On Oct 18, 10:04=A0am, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> I once built a push-pull class C amplifier using 833 tubes, with three
>> continuously tuned inductors that could handle 80M through 20M.
>
>Kewl. Neutralization in push-pull is in my experience much more
>tractable because you just tap off the signal from each phase, feed it
>through the neutralization cap which is nominally identical to the
>plate-grid capacitance, and into the grid of the opposing tube.
>Mathematically the plate-grid capacitance is constant as you change
>bands so to zeroth order neutralization may not have to be adjusted
>for band changes. Did the same neutralization setting work across the
>bands?
No, it didn't. Part of that may have been the RF transformer on the
plates not being completely symmetric and that symmetry changing with
frequency.
>i once tried to imagine a scheme where all 4 inductor taps in a push-
>pull front-panel-bandswitching scheme were switched with ceramic
>switch wafers actually inside each of the coils, and all the wafers
>are ganged with plastic cog belts. In the end I went with a much
>simpler plug-in coilset scheme.
The plug-in coilset is a good one, unless you suddenly find you want to
talk on a band you don't have a coil set for. I like the whole idea of
being able to continuously tune across all the bands and between all of
them. The problem with this is that you now have expensive big variable
caps or variable inductors, and they are usually sensitive as hell because
of the required tuning range... even a tiny tap and you're out of tune
again.
>> Sure, but can you get them free out of someone's trash? =A0All the big
>> planar grid tubes I found being thrown out are destroyed...
>
>It just occurred to me why ham amps with driven grids are so hard to
>neutralize compared to diathermy machines that donate their old tubes
>to the projects: You don't need to neutralize a diathermy machine at
>all!
You know, I haven't heard anyone even mention a diathermy machine in
ages. These days the major ISM band polluters are plywood manufacturers
and WiFi users....
eriew...@yahoo.com
theaud...@sbcglobal.net
Scott Dorsey
>
>Thank you. I have been in the process of building an 833A amplifier for 20 =
>meters and I do have it working but I sure would like to see another builde=
>rs ideas. Mine is grid driven with about -90 volts on the grid. I get 800 w=
>atts output with 3KV under load. I believe the plate current is just over 4=
>00 mA and a grid current of just under 50 mA if I remember correctly while =
>writing this with an efficiency of about 63% which I consider OK. I will tr=
>y to locate this article and if I cannot find it may just purchase the 1980=
be easy to find. Bauer 707, Gates BC1G are the first that come to mind.
Some others just uses 833s in the exciter deck to modulate larger finals.