Question for You Grounding Gurus
Brian Kelly
35 miles in my four door compact car. Do not want to carry them on the
roof. If I cut them to six feet long I can load them inside the car.
Ignoring any code compliance issues would there be any reason the
shortened rods would not work as well as full-length rods for purposes
of ligtning protection and the usual HF station RF grounding? Soil here
is probably very conductive (damp heavy loam). Thanks.
Brian w3rv
Dave
open both the driver and passenger windows on the front doors and put the
rods sideways across the car, this way they won't rub against any upholstery
and you can keep a close eye on them the whole way.'
"Brian Kelly" <ke...@dvol.com> wrote in message
news:1153437176....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Bob Miller
Stick 'em in the back side window, over the front passenger seat, stab
'em in on the front floor, blunt end down. Maybe you could also lower
the front seat back. A few towels would protect things.
bob
k5qwg
Ed
@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
If you are doing this for someone else, or a contractor, I'd talk to
them first. While you could easily make up the difference in ground
effectiveness by simply adding another one or two 6' long rods to the
system with those shortened rods, some codes do require 8' in their
language..... not that anyone is really going to pull them out to check!
Or you can do as Dave suggested in his reply to you and just open your
car windows and stick them crosswise.... should be little sticking out of
either side that way.... especially if they are diagonally across.
Personally, I think one can never have a good enough ground where
lightning is concerned.... but I'd say you probably won't significantly
be lessening your effectiveness with 6' rods vs. 8' rods.
Ed K7AAT
Ed K7AAT
Owen Duffy
In this part of the world one can buy joiners for the rods. The idea
would be you cut them in two, then when you install them, drive the
first rod, put the joiner on, place the second rod in the joiner,
drive it etc. That's how rods of tens of metres are driven in.
Maybe those joiners are available from you electrical contractors
suppliers.
Owen
>Brian w3rv
--
Brian Kelly
> open the windows and stick them out for the drive. this works best if you
> open both the driver and passenger windows on the front doors and put the
> rods sideways across the car, this way they won't rub against any upholstery
> and you can keep a close eye on them the whole way.'
I should have explained that that's what I want to avoid. I boogered
it. Sorry Dave.
I took the out-the-window approach a couple years ago and got whacked
by somebody in a van who came very close to side-swiping me. Shoved the
rod back into my upholstery and dinged it and I almost lost my
passenger-side mirror. I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and car-top
the full-length versions Tnx.
Brian w3rv
Brian Kelly
Interesting approach but I've never run into any such things on this
side of the pond. I'll ask an electrician or electrical supply house.
Tnx.
> Owen
Brian w3rv
w8...@akorn.net
Brian,
I know this doesn't answer the transport problem, but what are you
going to do with the rods?
Lightning protection comes much more from how you wire things than a
few ground rods...or even a dozen ground rods. As a matter of fact
adding or improving a ground can make things worse if the bonding and
entrance is installed wrong.
The station ground always should attach at the cable entrance point,
and that entrance MUST be bonded to the utilitly entrance ground. Many
people don't do this even though it is critical.
I have virtually no ground rods at all at my shack entrance, I leave
all the cables connected all of the time, I have several tall towers
including one 300 ft tall that gets hit several times a year, I have
virtually no in house lightning arrestors on cables, and I never have
lightning damage inside the house. I do have a cable entrance panel for
all cables, and that panel is bonded to the power mains ground and
telco ground.
The reason I don't have problems, even though the magnetic field from
some hits is so strong it magnetizes the TV screens, is how things
enter and how they are "grounded" to a common point. I haven't even
lost a computer modem.
As for RF, unless you are end feeding an antenna the only way
RF-in-the-shack is an issue is if something is wrong with an antenna
system...either in basic design or layout. Any two conductor feeder,
either balanced or unbalanced, should not produce RF in the shack.
73 Tom
Owen Duffy
Brian, these ferrules are for copper clad steel electrodes. The are
slimline, and have a hole with a slow taper bored in each end. They
are "connected" during the driving process, no silver soldering etc.
They cost about six pacific pesos for half inch rods, equivalent to
about $4+ of your money.
Owen
--
Buck
The rods I have seen aren't solid copper, but copper plated over some
other metal. One I saw appeared to have a concrete filling. You may
find putting the rod back together again a little difficult. If it is
just copper tubing, you may find using couplings will put you back in
business..
Buck
--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW
Buck
>'em in on the front floor, blunt end down. Maybe you could also lower
>the front seat back. A few towels would protect things.
>
>bob
>k5qwg
Ian White GM3SEK
The brochure for our European subcompact hatchback showed a photograph
with a surf-board inside. They folded down half the rear seat, reclined
the front seat back until it was flat, and then pushed the pointy end of
the board all the way into the glovebox.
It was all highly contrived, and of course "your car may vary", but
maybe some of those ideas will help.
--
73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
Jeff
What's wrong with putting them on the roof? They are only 8' long, so they
won't overhang. Even without a roof rack it would be a simple matter to
protect the roof and tie the rods down.
Regards
Jeff
Bob Miller
You should put up some pictures of your ground installation :-)
bob
k5qwg
Brian Kelly
>
> I know this doesn't answer the transport problem, but what are you
> going to do with the rods?
Ground things . . . ?
> Lightning protection comes much more from how you wire things than a
> few ground rods...or even a dozen ground rods. As a matter of fact
> adding or improving a ground can make things worse if the bonding and
> entrance is installed wrong.
>
> The station ground always should attach at the cable entrance point,
> and that entrance MUST be bonded to the utilitly entrance ground. Many
> people don't do this even though it is critical.
>
> I have virtually no ground rods at all at my shack entrance, I leave
> all the cables connected all of the time, I have several tall towers
> including one 300 ft tall that gets hit several times a year, I have
> virtually no in house lightning arrestors on cables, and I never have
> lightning damage inside the house. I do have a cable entrance panel for
> all cables, and that panel is bonded to the power mains ground and
> telco ground.
>
> The reason I don't have problems, even though the magnetic field from
> some hits is so strong it magnetizes the TV screens, is how things
> enter and how they are "grounded" to a common point. I haven't even
> lost a computer modem.
I understand exactly what you're saying, I agree with all of it and
ideally I'd do exactly as you've done. Problem is that I'm not able at
this point in history and for several reasons to do as rigorous a a job
of grounding as I'd like to. This place is a nice old relic in a
mini-forest which was built and wired long before there were any such
things as electrical and building codes. I can't tell if the power
service entrance is grounded or not but I suspect that if it is
grounded it's via the water supply line which is 3/4" copper tubing.
Eventually I'll get an electrician in here to sort it out. In the
meantime I'm getting back on the air with some simple wires at low
heights.
> As for RF, unless you are end feeding an antenna the only way
> RF-in-the-shack is an issue is if something is wrong with an antenna
> system...either in basic design or layout. Any two conductor feeder,
> either balanced or unbalanced, should not produce RF in the shack.
This will not be the fabled W8JI antenna and grounding farm. The
antennas will be end-fed 20 & 15M Dale Parfitt half wave dipoles strung
up vertically in trees. There will be a ground rod at the base of both
verticals to which the coax sheild is bonded. There will be a ground
rod at the copper plate cable entrance and all ground rods will be
connected via a solid #8 AWG copper wire snaked along the ground. Both
verticals will be only 25 feet or so from the station so I expect a lot
of RF to be floating around. Which will need grounding.
I have homeowner's insurance, I'll buy some ARRL equipment insurance, I
have two 10 pound dry chemical fire extinguishers and I go to church.
Once in awhile . .
Back to finding a pair of cartop cargo carriers which work with these
new-fangled aircraft-style flush doors . .
<<grumble>>
Thanks Tom.
> 73 Tom
Brian w3rv
Brian Kelly
You're right. I gotta go looking for a general-purpose rack. Which
would greatly simplify hauling lumber and 12' lengths of aluminum
tubing too.
> Regards
> Jeff
Brian w3rv
Irv Finkleman
>
> open the windows and stick them out for the drive. this works best if you
> open both the driver and passenger windows on the front doors and put the
> rods sideways across the car, this way they won't rub against any upholstery
> and you can keep a close eye on them the whole way.'
>
> "Brian Kelly" <ke...@dvol.com> wrote in message
> news:1153437176....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> >I have to transport four U.S. standard 5/8" dia x 8' long ground rods
> > 35 miles in my four door compact car. Do not want to carry them on the
Roller skates and a tow line.
Seriously though,
Into the car through the driver side rear window and
across the car to the floor on thepassenger side.
You'll always have a nagging doubt if you cut them.
Irv VE6BP
--
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--------------------
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Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Rick
>Back to finding a pair of cartop cargo carriers which work with these
>new-fangled aircraft-style flush doors . .
That will work, and you will get lots of use out of them, and when you
get your pick-up sell them on eBay.
You don't have a sunroof, huh?
We carry two by fours, PVC pipe, etc. all the time in a Honda Civic
with a sunroof. We wrap the things with rags, and we take the back
roads home.
For your 35 miles, it would be a bit expensive but consider Home Depot
rents trucks for $18 per hour. Probably more now with gas prices.
While there get some other stuff you are sure to need for the
inevitable renovation work going on there at the new QTH. But don't
cut the ground rods. Come on now!
Rick K2XT
Jim - NN7K
secure them with many 1/2 hitches, around the
bundle, and then tie off to the vehicle frame,
on the front , and back bumpers (I'm assumeing
that the roads you are paved (nothing to snag
these on). IF light enough load, have also
laid antennad, grounds, ect, in the saddle of the
rear view mirror, attaching the other end to the
rear bumper. Jim NN7K
robert
four rods, you'll end up with eight equal lengths once cut, of four feet
long. There are, however some cons here (I'll get to that). Depending
on your local geology and soil content, I would advise checking the
conductivity of the soil in the summer, during a dry spell. Depending on
the arrangement of the rods, it might also be a good idea to consider a
"halo" type ground instead of maybe just sticking them in the ground and
then connecting them in parallel - but I'm not sure what your plans are
exactly. There are also chemicals which you can use to dope the soil
you plan on inserting the rods into... usually an inexpensive ion-rich
salt solution, although with such implementation, close attention
usually needs to be paid to oxidation / corrosion within the first few
years. If water is no object, put in a "soaker system." You can even
do this "off the (water) grid" by using a cistern or large water
collection reservoir.
Overall, I'd say your best bet would be to leave those suckers as long
as possible and save yourself the time and headache. Since lightning
tends to follow paths of least resistance, avoid sharp turns in your
grounding strap or wire - additionally, short rods (depending on their
proximity to other grounded equipment) may actually cause the lightning
to jump from the incompletely-grounded end of the short rod to the next
closest grounded object. I've seen it happen before... if it's close to
the surface, it can make for some wild, glassy soil samples. :) And if
you can, please use copper strapping, or a GOOD Copper/Nickle braid -
several years back (we had never noticed it before), I noticed that the
guy cables on our 500' tower were originally grounded using 1/4" copper
ground wire - bad idea... every leg was grounded, and the reason we
never noticed that they were grounded this way originally???... the
ground wire had vaporized and separated into tiny little chunks which
ended up scattered in the field... no sign of the wire left at first
glance - and the original ground rods were never exposed above soil
level. Just in case you might have wondered why braid VS traditional
ground wire: electricity travels across the skin of the wire, not so
much in the core; more little wires woven together -- more surface area;
known as the "skin effect." Although the skin effect is more relevant
when dealing with Things like AC or High-Frequency RF, it still applies
to the seemingly random actions of lightning.
Ok... I'll stop now. Maybe I was able to help with your initial
question. sorry about all the fluff.
Hope all this helps!
Best Wishes and 73's!
Jason Stepp
KB9TLR - Marion, IN
Operations Mgr.
WSOT TV "Family Programming you can Trust!"
opera...@wsot-tv.com
mcal...@ksu.edu
>four rods, you'll end up with eight equal lengths once cut, of four feet
>long. There are, however some cons here (I'll get to that). Depending
>on your local geology and soil content, I would advise checking the
>conductivity of the soil in the summer, during a dry spell. Depending on
Although I can't cite the reference (I read too many magazines from too
many sources), a recent article somewhere gave a fairly-definitive answer
regarding grounding vs. depth of ground. Since I don't plan on digging
any 35-foot holes (I vaguely recall that number from the article), I
didn't even file the article (or if I filed it, I can't find it now!-(
--
--Myron A. Calhoun.
Five boxes preserve our freedoms: soap, ballot, witness, jury, and cartridge
NRA Life Member W0PBV "Barbershop" tenor CDL(PTXS) (785) 539-4448
Certified Instructor (KS Concealed Carry, Rifle, Pistol, Home Firearm Safety)
Richard Clark
>Although I can't cite the reference (I read too many magazines from too
>many sources), a recent article somewhere gave a fairly-definitive answer
>regarding grounding vs. depth of ground.
Hi All,
In this last regard, consult:
http://www.cpccorp.com/deep.htm
However, depth is not the end-all be-all of the subject. Protection
can be obtained for far less effort as any AM vertical antenna can
give evidence to with its radial system.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Jim
This is a bit off-topic, but can I ask you ..
> Lightning protection comes much more from how you wire things than a
> few ground rods...or even a dozen ground rods. As a matter of fact
> adding or improving a ground can make things worse if the bonding and
> entrance is installed wrong.
>
> The station ground always should attach at the cable entrance point,
> and that entrance MUST be bonded to the utilitly entrance ground. Many
> people don't do this even though it is critical.
Did you do this yourself, or did you get a pro of some kind? I have
tried to understand the advice I have seen (in particular the ARRL
articles) but I've only become convinced that it needs more knowledge
than I have, or at least that I could easily do exactly the wrong
thing. Would any electrician know enough (I'm suspecting not) or some
other professional?
Jim