Moon Bounce

[JIMMIE]

The beer got flowing the other day and some of my friends and I got to BSing about the possibility of transmitting a microwave pulse and reciving it reflected off the moon. Plans are to use a microwave oven magnetron for the transmitter. We were wondering if this would be legal.

[Rob]

JIMMIE <JIMMIE...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The beer got flowing the other day and some of my friends and I got to BSing about the possibility of transmitting a microwave pulse and reciving it reflected off the moon. Plans are to use a microwave oven magnetron for the transmitter. We were wondering if this would be legal.

Radio amateurs do this all the time. In most countries, for it to be
legal you need a radio amateur license.

Today it actually is not very difficult to receive moon bounce reflections,
because we can make very sensitive receivers and detect signals that are
below the noise, using a computer.

However, to do that you need to transmit a signal at a very stable
frequency, so that you know beforehand what will be coming back.
A microwave oven magnetron cannot really do that. It transmits a
big blob of RF at a woblling output frequency, rather than a well
defined frequency.

You also don't need that power, really. It is better to spend your
effort on a good antenna, because it helps both during transmit and
during receive, doubling the outcome of your effort.

[David]

No, it would not be legal to do it as you described. However, there are
lots of ways to do it legally:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EME_%28communications%29

http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/
moonbounce-propagation-eme.php

etc. Google is your friend.

[ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com]

David <n...@spam.please> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Jan 2013 04:02:59 -0800, JIMMIE wrote:
>
>> The beer got flowing the other day and some of my friends and I got to
>> BSing about the possibility of transmitting a microwave pulse and
>> reciving it reflected off the moon. Plans are to use a microwave oven
>> magnetron for the transmitter. We were wondering if this would be legal.
>
> No, it would not be legal to do it as you described. However, there are
> lots of ways to do it legally:

And why not in the USA?

Microwave oven mangetrons operate at 2.45 GHz, which is the top of the
2.39 to 2.45 GHz band and should be trivial to pull down a little bit.

All modes are allowed in the band.

All licencess other than Novice can use the band.

[Ralph Mowery]

"JIMMIE" <JIMMIE...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:beb915c1-cbf1-4c3a...@googlegroups.com...

As long as you can keep the microwave in the ham band it would be legal. A
number of years ago in the 73 Magazine there was an artical on converting a
microwave to a ham transmitter. Some microwaves, if not all operate
somewhere aroung 2 to 3 Ghz. You just need to make sure it is tuned to the
ham band that is somewhere in that range and you have a license above the
novice level.

There might be a number of technical resons it may or may not work.

[Henry]

I have the following books for sale with the prices I'm asking. All are in
very good to excellent to like new. Some have my name in them. All have
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Satellite Exp's Hndbk 1990 ARRL $12
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Henry WA0GOZ

[bilou]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:h_KdnRdb4b8X2XfN...@earthlink.com...

>
> There might be a number of technical resons it may or may not work.

+1
For your information with an ordinary S Band radar:
1000KW peak power into a 35 db antenna and about 1Mhz bandwith
You DONT receive echoes from the moon.
Very small bandwith is the key of success and magnetron is definitely
not a good choice.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Channel Jumper]

Instead of telling you how stupid your question is - I will refer you to
the FCC web site - Part 97.....

Part 97 says - no unauthroized transmissions - hence if you cannot ID
your signal, you cannot transmit anywhere except 11 meters.
11 meters you are limited to no more then 3 watts AM or 12 watts PEP
SSB..
No digital modes and no repeaters on 11 meters.

Second off - if licensed as an amateur - you have to follow the band
plan.
You can't just pick a frequency that sounds quiet and start operating.
One amateur recently was fined for operating on 350 Mhz band, I think
his fine was around $12,000.00

Third - you would need to limit your transmit power to no more then 1500
watts PEP, and you would have to have the equipment no only to measure
the transmit power, but also to do a field survey - since if you had
neighbors, you would have to test the exposure limits in the
neighborhood.

Your records would have to be kept of when you operated and available
for review by the FCC - should they come knocking on your door.
Most of the band specturm is being used for one thing or another and
just because you think that it is high enough that no one would hear
you, doesn't mean that someone isn't using it for something legally /
commercially..

http://www.arrl.org/part-97-amateur-radio

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/2003-allochrt.pdf




--
Channel Jumper

[ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com]

Channel Jumper <Channel.Jum...@radiobanter.com> wrote:
>
> Instead of telling you how stupid your question is - I will refer you to
> the FCC web site - Part 97.....
>
> Part 97 says - no unauthroized transmissions - hence if you cannot ID
> your signal, you cannot transmit anywhere except 11 meters.
> 11 meters you are limited to no more then 3 watts AM or 12 watts PEP
> SSB..
> No digital modes and no repeaters on 11 meters.

11 meters has nothing what so ever to do with the question.

There are many ways to ID a signal, and "unauthorized transmissions" has
little to noting to do with IDing.

> Second off - if licensed as an amateur - you have to follow the band
> plan.

No, you don't; band plans are voluntary.

You have to follow the FCC frequency allocations.

> You can't just pick a frequency that sounds quiet and start operating.
> One amateur recently was fined for operating on 350 Mhz band, I think
> his fine was around $12,000.00

Irrelevant.

Microwave ovens operate at 2.45 GHz.

There is an amateur band at 2.39 to 2.45 GHz. One should probably
force the frequency down a little to be safe.

> Third - you would need to limit your transmit power to no more then 1500
> watts PEP, and you would have to have the equipment no only to measure
> the transmit power, but also to do a field survey - since if you had
> neighbors, you would have to test the exposure limits in the
> neighborhood.

Not quite.

First, there are few, if any, microwave magnetrons capable of 1.5 KW so
the requirement to measure output is moot; just pick one that puts out
less than 1.5 Kw.

Second, a field survey is not appropriate nor needed for a directional
antenna pointing into the sky.

> Your records would have to be kept of when you operated and available
> for review by the FCC - should they come knocking on your door.

Nonsense; the US requirement for ham logging went away a long time ago.

> Most of the band specturm is being used for one thing or another and
> just because you think that it is high enough that no one would hear
> you, doesn't mean that someone isn't using it for something legally /
> commercially..

Again, nonsense as there is a ham band where microwave oven magnetrons
operate.

> http://www.arrl.org/part-97-amateur-radio
>
> http://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/2003-allochrt.pdf

Read your own links and note the 2.39 to 2.45 GHz ham band.

[you]

In article <nadrr9-...@mail.specsol.com>, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
wrote:

Just a NOTE here: Channel Jumper is an Idiot... all should know this
right off....

The CW Power of a Microwave Magnitron is measured In Watts, and if you
PULSE that Magnitron by sending your ID in Morse Code, and then average
the Pulses over Time, you reduce the actual ERP by the Duty Cycle, which
figures into the Legal Power Output. Just keep the emissions within the
2.4 Ghz Ham Band and with a Tech or higher Class License your all set.

I mean Duh.... this should be self-evident to ANY Ham who can read
english and googled CFR47Part97....

[Channel Jumper]

If a person cannot read the answer, then when they become combative,
they tend to drift off the subject with their own axe to grind.

If you can get someone to read this to him, the only place other then 11
meters where a person can operate without a license is FRS - which
allows one half of one watt of transmit power....

A Band Plan - be it FCC - which I posted or ARRL is one in the same.
ARRL band plan tends to just show Amateur Frequencies - since that is
all that amateurs are concerned with....

Maybe you never heard of a pink slip - operate sometime on the CW
portion in SSB Phone or AM and see how long you can operate before
someone gives you heck...

Do it on a continous basis - and see how long you can operate before you
get a pink slip...




--
Channel Jumper

[ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com]

Channel Jumper <Channel.Jum...@radiobanter.com> wrote:
>
> If a person cannot read the answer, then when they become combative,
> they tend to drift off the subject with their own axe to grind.

Babble.

> If you can get someone to read this to him, the only place other then 11
> meters where a person can operate without a license is FRS - which
> allows one half of one watt of transmit power....

Not true and irrelevant anyway.

> A Band Plan - be it FCC - which I posted or ARRL is one in the same.

Nope.

> ARRL band plan tends to just show Amateur Frequencies - since that is
> all that amateurs are concerned with....

Nope.

> Maybe you never heard of a pink slip - operate sometime on the CW
> portion in SSB Phone or AM and see how long you can operate before
> someone gives you heck...

Irrelevant.

> Do it on a continous basis - and see how long you can operate before you
> get a pink slip...

Babble.

[ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com]

Jef <je...@assystems.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> A Band Plan - be it FCC - which I posted or ARRL is one in the same.
>> ARRL band plan tends to just show Amateur Frequencies - since that is
>> all that amateurs are concerned with....
>>
>

> That is not correct, The FCC limit what modes may be transmitted on what
> frequency *on some bands*, but that is very different from the ARRL or
> IARU bandplans, which are much more detailed. The FCC place no
> restrictions on 70cms and above.
>
> Jeff

Almost, but not quite.

The FCC defines the frequencies and the emission modes that MAY be used
on the frequencies and this is law.

A band plan such as the ARRL's is a voluntary suggestion for the best
practices use of the various emissions within a band, i.e. a band plan
will show where within a band FM repeaters, SSB, TV, etc. should operate.

Note that while band plans are voluntary and carry no legal authority,
gross violations of band plans can be concidered to be willful interference
to other users, and as such IS a legal issue.

[Channel Jumper]

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com;800481 Wrote:
> Jef je...@assystems.com wrote:-
> -

>
> A Band Plan - be it FCC - which I posted or ARRL is one in the same.
> ARRL band plan tends to just show Amateur Frequencies - since that is
> all that amateurs are concerned with....

> -

>
> That is not correct, The FCC limit what modes may be transmitted on
> what
> frequency *on some bands*, but that is very different from the ARRL or
>
> IARU bandplans, which are much more detailed. The FCC place no
> restrictions on 70cms and above.
>

> Jeff-

>
> Almost, but not quite.
>
> The FCC defines the frequencies and the emission modes that MAY be used
> on the frequencies and this is law.
>
> A band plan such as the ARRL's is a voluntary suggestion for the best
> practices use of the various emissions within a band, i.e. a band plan
> will show where within a band FM repeaters, SSB, TV, etc. should
> operate.
>
> Note that while band plans are voluntary and carry no legal authority,
> gross violations of band plans can be concidered to be willful
> interference
> to other users, and as such IS a legal issue.

And Basically, the FCC just says this is the allowable frequencies, and
where they are located.
The ARRL Band Plan says this is our frequencies and this is how you can
use them.
The FCC explain's how power is measured and how side bands affects
performance and defines interference.
They even go so far as to explain how much spectrum your signal is
allowed to occupy and how close to band limits you are allowed to
approach.

As far as the log went, up and until recently - you still had to keep a
log for 60 meters, - before the power increase and you are only allowed
to operate into a dipole antenna.
I think it has something to do with the algorythym's of a persons heart
and the ability to kill someone with your RF if they get too close or
have heart problems.

The origional question is moot at this point, because you are not a
licensed amateur and you do not have permission to have emmissions
anywhere except a small segment of the UHF - called FRS and the 11
meters - which is where all of this started.

If you had an amateur radio license, we wouldn't even be talking about
this right now, or the banter back n forth.
This is the purpose of the amateur radio license exams ' - to give
everyone at least a little exposure to the rules and regulations and
proper operating procedures. This is also the reason why I am dead set
against reissueing licenses to people who left their license lasp and to
allow ham in a day classes - where a person that doesn't know anything,
is allowed to cram for one day and get a license without ever having to
operate or know anything.

This mindset does not produce - trained radio operators - at no cost to
the government.




--
Channel Jumper

[ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com]

Channel Jumper <Channel.Jum...@radiobanter.com> wrote:

<snip old stuff>

> And Basically, the FCC just says this is the allowable frequencies, and
> where they are located.

OK so far, except it should be "these are the allowable..." and once the
frequencies are stated you know "where they are located".

> The ARRL Band Plan says this is our frequencies and this is how you can
> use them.

Essentially, except it should be "these are our frequencies and this is how
you should use them".

> The FCC explain's how power is measured and how side bands affects
> performance and defines interference.

Not quite.

> They even go so far as to explain how much spectrum your signal is
> allowed to occupy and how close to band limits you are allowed to
> approach.

Straying off into la-la land here.

> As far as the log went, up and until recently - you still had to keep a
> log for 60 meters, - before the power increase and you are only allowed
> to operate into a dipole antenna.

Yep, into la-la land.

Operations concidered experimental, i.e. performed under a waiver, require
logging, normal operations do not and have not for a long time.

> I think it has something to do with the algorythym's of a persons heart
> and the ability to kill someone with your RF if they get too close or
> have heart problems.

Nope, not even close.

> The origional question is moot at this point, because you are not a
> licensed amateur and you do not have permission to have emmissions
> anywhere except a small segment of the UHF - called FRS and the 11
> meters - which is where all of this started.

Who is it that you think is not a licensed amateur?

> If you had an amateur radio license, we wouldn't even be talking about
> this right now, or the banter back n forth.

If you mean me, I've been licensed since 1964 and the reason for this
"banter" is that most everything you post is nonsense.

> This is the purpose of the amateur radio license exams ' - to give
> everyone at least a little exposure to the rules and regulations and
> proper operating procedures. This is also the reason why I am dead set
> against reissueing licenses to people who left their license lasp and to
> allow ham in a day classes - where a person that doesn't know anything,
> is allowed to cram for one day and get a license without ever having to
> operate or know anything.

Rambling nonsense.

> This mindset does not produce - trained radio operators - at no cost to
> the government.

Ditto.

[David]

Microwave magnetrons would likely have unacceptable spurs and sidelobes,
as the frequency is not very stable.

[ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com]

Spurs are highly unlikely with a cavity based device like a magnetron.

Sidelobes are an artifact of antennas, not oscillators, unless you are
talking about modulation sidelobes which are pretty trivially dealt with
in a pulse device.

The frequency stability of a magnetron is highly correlated to the
power supply, i.e. the anode voltage.

The power supply and pulse control of an oven would be useless for any
sort of communications, so one would need to build one that pulled
the frequency down into the amateur band and provided for some sort of
modulation scheme.

The simplest modulation would be very high speed CW.

[ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com]

Jef <je...@assystems.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Spurs are highly unlikely with a cavity based device like a magnetron.
>>
>> Sidelobes are an artifact of antennas, not oscillators, unless you are
>> talking about modulation sidelobes which are pretty trivially dealt with
>> in a pulse device.
>>
>> The frequency stability of a magnetron is highly correlated to the
>> power supply, i.e. the anode voltage.
>>
>> The power supply and pulse control of an oven would be useless for any
>> sort of communications, so one would need to build one that pulled
>> the frequency down into the amateur band and provided for some sort of
>> modulation scheme.
>>
>> The simplest modulation would be very high speed CW.
>>
>

> Some years ago a local ham injection locked his microwave oven and
> produced a pretty stable source in the 2.4GHZ band.
>
> Jeff

That would be the smart thing to do if one wants frequency stability and
these days it is pretty easy to do.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <5oa3s9-...@mail.specsol.com>, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
writes

While these technical discussions are very interesting, I can't help
feeling that most of it will go over the head of the OP. Even if he
knows nothing about amateur radio, he will by now have realised that
moonbounce is quite a specialist subject, and not something that the
ordinary man-in-the-street would be able to suddenly decide to have a go
at. If he does know about amateur radio, he probably knows this already!
--
Ian

[Rob]

Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> While these technical discussions are very interesting, I can't help
> feeling that most of it will go over the head of the OP. Even if he
> knows nothing about amateur radio, he will by now have realised that
> moonbounce is quite a specialist subject, and not something that the
> ordinary man-in-the-street would be able to suddenly decide to have a go
> at. If he does know about amateur radio, he probably knows this already!

Well, I have not personally used moonbounce but I have visited a moonbounce
station back in the late seventies and I sometimes read about moonbounce
as it is today, and I get the impression that it has become a lot
easier for the average ham to build a moonbounce station.
It may not be for the ordinary man-in-the-street and probably also
not for the ordinary novice radio amateur, but someone who can read
and think and is not without money should be able to assemble a
JT65 moonbounce station. Back in the seventies it required you to
be a lunatic, have a suitable location, and a real lot of money.

[ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com]

When I got my Novice many decades ago, my transmitter was a 6AQ5 xtal
oscillator and a superregen receiver, all homebrew down to the power
supplies with parts mostly from salvaged TV sets.

Given all the stuff available today, I would rank building a moonbounce
station of some sort at 2.4 GHz to be about the same order of difficulty.

[John S]

On 1/5/2013 6:02 AM, JIMMIE wrote:
> The beer got flowing the other day and some of my friends and I got to BSing about the possibility of transmitting a microwave pulse and reciving it reflected off the moon. Plans are to use a microwave oven magnetron for the transmitter. We were wondering if this would be legal.
>

The Moon does not bounce. It goes "Splat".

[tom]

Yes, there is a program that works for recieved signals below the noise,
does all the work for you, and lets you run as low as 100 watts with a
single decent yagi on 2m.

It also looks up calls from a built in database and is wrong often
enough that most real EMErs with an ounce of respect won't use it. Many
logs submitted show QSOs with people not on the air.

There is nothing like actually hearing the signal.

tom
K0TAR