G5RV - should it point north-south or east-west
Hugh Jass
reception on most bands. North-South, or East-West or some variation thereof.
Thanks.
Hugh Jass
Leslie Knowlton
enough
to get other than an omni pattern for the frequency.
Hugh Jass <hugh...@beer.com> wrote in article
<7Ogf2.1728$bJ4.1...@news2.mia>...
Karl Klingman
antenna N/S. But there are numerous factors such as height, terrain, proximity
of buildings and numerous other factors which can effect the radiation pattern of
the antenna.
If you have the room you could hang two -- one E/W and one N/S then you'd
have all your bases covered. Usually, the deciding factor for me is which tree
limbs can I get a line over. hi
73's
Karl AF4IX
W6RCecilA
>
> I have a G5RV and I am wondering which direction would be best for all-around
> reception on most bands. North-South, or East-West or some variation thereof.
> Thanks.
Hi Hugh, follow the G5RV link on my web page to see the radiation
patterns on all HF bands. Below 11MHz, the radiation patterns
are broadside to the antenna. Above 14MHz, the radiation patterns
assume a cloverleaf pattern with very little broadside radiation.
I have my 20m lobes pointed toward Europe, South America, New
Zealand, and Japan.
--
73, Cecil, W6RCA http://people.delphi.com/CecilMoore
K7jy
northeast to Europe and southwest to VK-ZL. "Aiming" the wire depends on your
QTH and where you want to be heard. Of course a single wire antenna, in general
practise, will still radiate a lot of energy off the ends (in my case NW or
SE) so I can still work the southeast of the US just fine on 40/80, as well as
the JAs to the NW. Good luck! K7JY.
Reg Edwards
Your geographic location
Your geomagnetic location
Your most favoured direction
You most favoured path distance
Your soil constants
Your ground electrode system
Antenna height
Height of ground above sea level
Effect of nearby mountains, lakes, seas
Antenna wire diameter
The effects of metal masts
Effects of local overhead power cables
Effects of overhead phone wires
Adjacency of buldings
Construction of adjacent buildings
Time of day at transmitting end
Time of day at receiving end
Altitude of sun at path midpoint
MUF
LUF
Number of hops
E, F1 or F2 ionospheric layers
D Layer absorption
North/south or East/west path
Month of year
Winter anomally
Position in present sun-spot cycle.
Current number of sunspots
Operating frequency, 1.8 to 30 MHz
Earth's magnetic disturbances
Sun's magnetic disturbances
NASA's ionospheric polluting experiments
North or south aurora
Electron spin frequency
etc, etc, etc.
So it is a waste of time considering antenna orientation.
Just toss a coin and erect it. Having gained some experience, rotate
orientation by 45 degrees. There is a 50% probability the new
orientation may be of benefit for your own particular requirements.
There will also be a 50% probability the changed orientation will be
less suitable. But by then you may be thinking in terms of getting
rid of the G5RV in exchange for something else. Or you could even
begin with something else. Vital thing is not to waste time sitting
around worrying about it.
Merry Xmas Hughie.
******************************
Reg, G4FGQ Click below.
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
******************************
Hugh Jass <hugh...@beer.com> wrote in article
<7Ogf2.1728$bJ4.1...@news2.mia>...
> I have a G5RV and I am wondering which direction would be best for
all-around
> reception on most bands. North-South, or East-West or some
variation thereof.
> Thanks.
>
> Hugh Jass
>
W6RCecilA
> So it is a waste of time considering antenna orientation.
I'm sorry, Reg, but that is like saying it is a waste of time
to consider relativity or quantum physics because they are so
complicated. Not considering the major effects is a good way
to fail to achieve one's goal. OTOH, considering all the effects
that one is capable of understanding is a step in the right
direction. Expecting an East/West oriented resonant dipole
in Nebraska to perform well toward the East Coast and West
Coast is downright irrationally ignorant.
Why do you supply so much free educational software and then
promote ignorance? :-)
George T. Baker
off by his typical ascerbic English "charm," but he may have had in mind
that the "typical" dipole erected by the "typical" ham is far too low
(particularly on 80 and 40) to display much if any azimuthal
directivity. Hugh's question was, you must admit, a little broadbanded!
But, by the same token, so was Reg's response.
72/73, George
Amateur Radio W5YR, in the 53rd year and it just keeps getting better!
AutoPOWER Systems, Fairview, TX (30 mi NE Dallas) Collin County
QRP-L QRP-ARCI FISTS NORCAL ZOMBIE #522 ARS 10-X 33.2 N 96.6 W EM13RE
W6RCecilA
> Hugh's question was, you must admit, a little broadbanded!
> But, by the same token, so was Reg's response.
I pointed Hugh to my web page where the G5RV antenna patterns are
given. I just object to anyone saying antenna configuration
doesn't matter. "Just put it up!" (Ten feet high for 75m?)
There is so much knowledge regarding G5RVs that "just put
it up" is poor advice IMO.
Sam Moore
Gotta agree - Have used a G5RV for many years and the most important thing I
have found out is this -- Ya gotta put it up and use it, try different
directions over time, decide what worked the best and just go for it.
Guys like Cecil drive me nuts. They have every excuse on why not to use
something or on the "proper" way it "should" be done. If most of us did it
their way we wouldn't have time or be able to use the radio.
Just put a piece of wire or tubing in the sky and use it. Over the course of
time you can improve it. More important to make contacts than to set around
debating the best way to make a contact.
Reg Edwards
All we know about Hugh is that he is somewhere on this Earth of ours,
he has a computer, and is considering a G5RV.
I listed some of the factors, including height, which would affect
choice of orientation.
I was not promoting ignorance but illustrating how much of it there
is about.
I could also have said that the likelihood of the directivity of the
antenna he eventually erected closely resembling, on all bands, the
idealised diagrams available from your website is not very high. But
I didn't.
I could also have said that if Hugh's backyard was big enough for a
G5RV, which you promote, he would do better by erecting a simple
dipole, centre fed via a wide-spaced open line, initially orientated
in any random direction. But I didn't.
Radio communication is by far the most inexact and probabalistic of
all the sciences. Which you know Cecil.
--
******************************
Reg, G4FGQ Click below.
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
******************************
W6RCecilA <w6...@ibm.net> wrote in article <36802D...@ibm.net>...
> Reg Edwards wrote:
> > So it is a waste of time considering antenna orientation.
>
> I'm sorry, Reg, but that is like saying it is a waste of time
> to consider relativity or quantum physics because they are so
> complicated. Not considering the major effects is a good way
> to fail to achieve one's goal. OTOH, considering all the effects
> that one is capable of understanding is a step in the right
> direction. Expecting an East/West oriented resonant dipole
> in Nebraska to perform well toward the East Coast and West
> Coast is downright irrationally ignorant.
>
> Why do you supply so much free educational software and then
> promote ignorance? :-)
W6RCecilA
> I could also have said that the likelihood of the directivity of the
> antenna he eventually erected closely resembling, on all bands, the
> idealised diagrams available from your website is not very high. But
> I didn't.
It's more like somewhat resembling, on some bands ... but we would be
foolish not to take advantage of the knowledge available.
> I could also have said that if Hugh's backyard was big enough for a
> G5RV, which you promote, he would do better by erecting a simple
> dipole, centre fed via a wide-spaced open line, initially orientated
> in any random direction. But I didn't.
I see you haven't looked very closely at my web page. I don't promote
G5RVs - just the opposite. What I promote is knowledge about G5RVs,
similar types of dipoles, and improvements that can be made. The
best dipole I've used is a half-wavelength on the lowest band of
interest fed with a half-wavelength of 450 ohm ladder-line.
> Radio communication is by far the most inexact and probabalistic of
> all the sciences. Which you know Cecil.
I'm not sure about that, Reg. Is Shrodinger's (sp?) cat dead or alive?
How do matched particles "communicate" with each other at faster than
the speed of light? Does reality originate locally?
W6RCecilA
> Guys like Cecil drive me nuts. They have every excuse on why not to use
> something or on the "proper" way it "should" be done. If most of us did it
> their way we wouldn't have time or be able to use the radio.
It's the engineering mentality. Anything worth doing is worth learning
something from. For instance, I never heard any European stations on
my 102ft dipole in AZ. I had it running N/S. I bought EZNEC and modeled
it and discovered my 20m lobe missed Europe by 20 degrees. I rotated
my antenna 20 degrees and started working Europe regularly. How long
should I have wallowed in ignorance before using my mental talents
to diagnose the problem and do something about it?
Reg Edwards
think about it.
But you didn't need to go to the trouble and expense of Eznec. Any
classical book of the 1930's (Terman's, Everitt's are USA examples)
on radio antennas will tell you how to orientate any simple
single-wire antenna at any frequency for any required direction.
But whatever analysis method is chosen, you can still consider
yourself lucky if your particular antenna, in your particular
location over which you have no choice, behaves as predicted.
Its all largely a matter of chance. Antenna orientation of something
like a G5RV is only one of many equally chancey factors which decide
whether a general purpose antenna is good or bad.
By the way Cecil, your feeder must have descended at exactly the
correct angles with respect to the antenna, to the ground and to the
magnetic compass to enable you to get into Europe.
fan...@yahoo.com
I have to agree with Cecil. He and others are not saying one should just
analyze and analyze and never put up an antenna or build a rig. You can
analyze anything to death or you can build and not have good results. Then
again you can do a reasonable amount of researching before you build and have
better results then if you just threw the antenna up and trusted to luck.
Jeff Jones
AB6MB
NorCal #65
Owner of the Delta MudCats
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
K7jy
"attack" he received in the previous mail. A true gentleman's response. We need
more of this in our newsgroups. Bravo Cecil and please keep up sharing your
"engineer's mentality." I, for one, read all your advice with great interest.
73, John, K7JY.
W6RCecilA
>
> I really appreciated Cecil's level-headed, mature, and gentle response to the
> "attack" he received in the previous mail. A true gentleman's response.
Thanks John, someone from r.r.a.policy will, no doubt, disagree with you.
I try to have a balanced response. Sometimes I fight fire with fire.
Reg Edwards
does not appreciate statistical solutions of engineering problems.
All engineering solutions are imperfect, even space probe designs, in
that there is a calculable expectation, a probability of success or
failure.
Anyone trying to create friction when none exists, to start an
entirely unjustified war, merely demonstrates his ignorance and
aggressiveness.
Come back with some numbers.
--
******************************
Reg, G4FGQ Click below.
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
******************************
K7jy <k7...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981224110956...@ng-fb2.aol.com>...
> I really appreciated Cecil's level-headed, mature, and gentle
response to the
> "attack" he received in the previous mail. A true gentleman's
W6RCecilA
> But whatever analysis method is chosen, you can still consider
> yourself lucky if your particular antenna, in your particular
> location over which you have no choice, behaves as predicted.
Whadda ya mean, "over which I have no choice"? I chose my two acre
spread in Queen Creek, AZ for the purpose of erecting ham antennas.
It was 19 miles from work. I consider ham antenna location more
important than work location.
> By the way Cecil, your feeder must have descended at exactly the
> correct angles with respect to the antenna, to the ground and to the
> magnetic compass to enable you to get into Europe.
Yep, it did because I engineered it that way starting with the purchase
of a house on two acres. And forget magnetic North - not accurate enough.
I used *true* North. :-) Anything worth doing at all is worth doing right.
W6RCecilA
>
> this ant is not all directional.If you set it up east west you will
> bedirectional north ,south ect.
Only on 75m/40m/30m. On the higher bands it is cloverleaf
with neglible broadside radiation.
Swells8069
bedirectional north ,south ect.
Have a goodun
Swell...@aol.com
Jim Martin
We understand you are not being hostile...you are only "appearing" to be
that way.
<wink, wink, nudge, nudge>
Reg Edwards wrote in message <01be2fc5$a4ecd5c0$e85fac3e@default>...
K7jy
original post) I mentioned in my original post was not made by Reg Edwards, nor
did I attribute it to him. The remark I was responding to was made by someone
else, who said, "Guys like Cecil drive me nuts. They have every excuse on why
not to use something or on the 'proper' way it 'should' be done. If most of us
arena (academia), this would be considered a personal attack (albeit a gentle
one). I am sure both Cecil and Reg have big enough shoulders to sustain such
comments, although I must admit to being surprised by Reg's response. I simply
was complimenting Cecil on his usual perspicacious remarks and had no intention
of starting a "war" ! Please, let's all get on with it...and here's wishing
everyone a peaceful new year with lots of sharing of hypotheses, analyses, and
theories And my apologies to anyone's nose I've put out of joint. . 73 de John
Young, K7JY, Seattle.
Reg Edwards
>
> Guys like Cecil drive me nuts. They have every excuse on why not to
use
> something or on the "proper" way it "should" be done. If most of us
did it
> their way we wouldn't have time or be able to use the radio.
Sam,
I think our views belong to the majority of amateurs of limited
resources who experiment rather than just operate. But since they
are more likely to have mild and inoffensive natures, they do not
often raise their voices on newsgroups only to get shouted down by
the Establishment.
Cecil is not amongst the worst of the Guru's. Occasionally he allows
a lot of lattitude. Has a nice sense of comedy too.
In my dictionary I came across -
PEDANT - "One who overrates or parades book-learning or technical
knowledge or insists on strict adherence to formal rules; one who is
possessed by a theory, doctrinaire. Hence: Pedantic.
EXPERIMENT - " A test, trial, (of); procedure adopted on chance of
it succeeding, or for testing hypothesis, etc.
Keywords : strict adherence (certainty); chance (probability).
Reg.
Reg Edwards
Reg.
W6RCecilA
> Cecil is not amongst the worst of the Guru's.
I'm not a guru, Reg, just a grasshopper asking tough questions.
Like, if "CW gets through when no other mode can", why don't I
ever hear any 6m CW?
Rob Peebles
>Reg Edwards wrote:
>> Cecil is not amongst the worst of the Guru's.
>
>I'm not a guru, Reg, just a grasshopper asking tough questions.
>Like, if "CW gets through when no other mode can", why don't I
>ever hear any 6m CW?
After 20 years of hamming, I got on 6 meters for the first time a
couple of years ago. I had just purchased a brand new Icom 706, and
some friends of mine were saying how much fun they had been having on
6. So I quickly made a dipole and hung it on the patio. Among my
first contacts were Florida stations AC4TO and W4WHK, both on 6 meter
cw.
--
Rob Peebles, WD8LXX
Dublin, Ohio
rpee...@ix.netcom.com
Reg Edwards
extremely fortunate your patio runs at just the correct bearing
relative to due north.
Reg
comp...@mygrande.net
> I have a G5RV and I am wondering which direction would be best for all-around
> reception on most bands. North-South, or East-West or some variation thereof.
> Thanks.
>
> Hugh Jass
I must agree with all the responses. I found Reg's response most enlightening because he did point out all the variables involved. I just wish all the information could have been disseminated as informational responses as opposed to personal attacks on and by each responder.
I too am a novice Ham. I became interested in radio by my own choosing as a hobby, not a job. I was, and still am, leery of the ham hobby because of the snobbishness I have listened to on the various ham bands. I realize that most of the hams out there have been doing it for 40 to 50 years and are probably tired of answering the same basic questions over and over and have a tendency to be a little "condescending" with their responses.
After 20 years as a Medical Doctor, I too have to keep reminding myself that the patients are NOT Med School Grads and don't have the medical education to follow Medical Terminology or to even understand what they are being told. I have to "land the plane" and come down to their level to explain the condition, the contraindications of the medications, their personal reaction and expectations for the medications and ensuing treatments possibilities.
I am sure that if any one of the responders came into my office complaining of a medical problem, I too could confound, confuse and irritate them by my attitude and the level of expertise in my answer. I could sit there for hours and point out all the various possibilities, negative reactions to treatment and medications applied and blast them with horrendously long medical words that would neither help them understand or set them at ease.
If this type of "help" on these threads continues, the older generation of "HAMMERS" will fade away and no new, younger people will wish to get involved. The biggest problem facing HAM operators is the "snobbish" attitude that people "perceive" as the norm for HAM and that is why they have NO interest in obtaining a license or spending the money on anything more advanced than a $49.00 CB radio. Their first experience on CB radio will most likely be Channels 6, 19 and 28. If they do get an SSB capable radio they will eventually find CH 38 LSB. After listening to the fighting, cursing and general mayhem on these channels, like me, they will probably want to move to HAM where people are more "sophisticated, educated and well mannered" because these people, hopefully, did go to the trouble of obtaining a license and at least exert enough effort to pass an exam. OOPS! After purchasing an ICOM IC718 and listening in on the various HAM bands, I too have realized that the same "un-sophisticated, un-educated and bad mannered" people exist in the HAM world too.
Truly sad that a "newbie" has to get HAMmered by these "superior intellect" individuals that have NO patience or respect for beginners in the hobby. These people should just stay off the threads if they don't like the questions.
Keep it up and pretty soon there will be no operators left and the arrogant responders will be talking to themselves.
After studying up for the "Technician and General" license, I cancelled my appointment for the testing. I am not sure I want to continue with the HAM experience. I can get all the garbage I want by listening to 38 LSB without a license, without "hanging" a bunch of wire around my back yard, without purchasing tuners, SWR/RF Power WATTS/Modulation meters, Power Supplies, Grounding Rods, Masts, Cement, hole digging equipment, heavy gauge copper wire and miscellaneous other pieces of equipment, software, specialized cabling, dedicated computer, ham shack furniture and shelving, the list goes on and on. HAM is not an inexpensive hobby by any means and certainly isn't something that can be accomplished without a small amount of commitment.
Radio is not an exact science; however, NEWBIES like myself do, from time to time, hope to get through all the mess with as little time wasted as possible in order to:
1) transmit and receive,
2) preserve equipment,
3) save money where possible,
4) save limited spare time where possible,
5) meet new people around the world with similar interests and who wish to "converse" rather than give a weather report and S number.
If the only response from a contact is a weather report and an S number, I can reasonable assume that I am reaching them because they responded and I can also get the weather anywhere on the planet using "weather.gov". That, my esteemed colleagues is NOT conversing, that is just pumping the numbers on a "contact list".
Well, I have run out of time for now and hope I haven't offended anyone with this long winded diatribe, however, If I have, then you know what it feels like to be a NEWBIE.
Best to all...Wayne L. Chambers MD. (NO HAM TICKET AS OF YET, THE JURY IS STILL OUT ON THAT ONE!)
Rob
> On Monday, December 21, 1998 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Hugh Jass wrote:
>> I have a G5RV and I am wondering which direction would be best for all-around
>> reception on most bands. North-South, or East-West or some variation thereof.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Hugh Jass
>
> Well, Well, Well! It is most interesting how a simple question can start such a battle of wits. After reading all the responses, most of which were mainly personal attacks on each other's "mental capabilities", none of the question was actually answered.
> If this type of "help" on these threads continues, the older generation of "HAMMERS" will fade away and no new, younger people will wish to get involved.
Jerry Stuckle
everything but are wrong about anything much more complicated than Ohm's
Law. Some even claim to have EE degrees, yet don't know the basics
taught in sophomore or junior level courses. And they will argue until
the cows come home. You can tell some of them by the way they cite
Wikipedia as their source (Wikipedia is OK on non-technical topics, but
does not do well at explaining highly technical issues, as I'm sure
you've found in your profession).
I've killfiled several of them; it makes the newsgroups much more
interesting to read, and I don't have to keep filtering the junk out.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
jstu...@attglobal.net
==================
Stephen Thomas Cole
>but are wrong about anything much more complicated than Ohm's
> Law.
> Some even claim to have EE degrees, yet don't know the basics
> taught in sophomore or junior level courses.
>And they will argue until
> the cows come home.
> You can tell some of them by the way they cite
> Wikipedia as their source (Wikipedia is OK on non-technical topics, but
> does not do well at explaining highly technical issues, as I'm sure
> you've found in your profession).
>
> I've killfiled several of them; it makes the newsgroups much more
> interesting to read, and I don't have to keep filtering the junk out.
claimed to but sadly it turned out to be a total charade.
--
STC // M0TEY // twitter.com/ukradioamateur
Jerry Stuckle
posting from). But we have our own trolls, whom I don't have to name -
anyone who's been around more than a few days will recognize them.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
"Stephen Thomas Cole" <use...@stephenthomascole.com> wrote in message
news:mnbiag$bnr$1...@dont-email.me...
.......
wroughtn...@gmail.com
> I have a G5RV and I am wondering which direction would be best for all-around
> reception on most bands. North-South, or East-West or some variation thereof.
> Thanks.
>
> Hugh Jass