WiFi antenna recommendations?
DaveC
Is there any reason to not go for the greatest gain antenna, given that cost
is not too important (within reason)?
There are scads of these on the 'net. I'm looking for someone who has
experience with one or more of them and can make a recommendation for one.
Thanks,
--
DaveC
m...@bogusdomain.net
This is an invalid return address
Please reply in the news group
John Smith
> Looking for outdoor omni "whip" antenna for 2.4 GHz.
>
> Is there any reason to not go for the greatest gain antenna, given that cost
> is not too important (within reason)?
>
> There are scads of these on the 'net. I'm looking for someone who has
> experience with one or more of them and can make a recommendation for one.
>
> Thanks,
There are 1/2 wave antennas on the market which do a decent job. I have
found their biggest problem is the coax the manufacturer ships with
them--too low of quality and too short.
Here is an article on one you can homebrew yourself, from ANY USB wifi
card:
http://tinyurl.com/6xdfav
-- or --
How about one of these?:
used with a 25 ft. USB extension cable, I use it when traveling. Plus,
you bypass the need for expensive/lossy SHF coax ...
Regards,
JS
John Smith
> Looking for outdoor omni "whip" antenna for 2.4 GHz.
>
> Is there any reason to not go for the greatest gain antenna, given that cost
> is not too important (within reason)?
>
> There are scads of these on the 'net. I'm looking for someone who has
> experience with one or more of them and can make a recommendation for one.
>
> Thanks,
To be complete, here is an example of a 1/2 external with sma connector
and 9 ft. length of coax. Notice, they DO NOT mention what the
attenuation factor for the coax is ... :-(
Regards,
JS
John Smith
>
> There are scads of these on the 'net. I'm looking for someone who has
> experience with one or more of them and can make a recommendation for one.
>
> Thanks,
And, these are probably what you are looking at on the net?
or
Regards,
JS
exray
> Looking for outdoor omni "whip" antenna for 2.4 GHz.
>
> Is there any reason to not go for the greatest gain antenna, given that cost
> is not too important (within reason)?
>
> There are scads of these on the 'net. I'm looking for someone who has
> experience with one or more of them and can make a recommendation for one.
>
> Thanks,
Hi, not actually 2.4 Gig WiFi but cellular wireless modem card. I
bought one of the small verticals with a magnet mount and cabling for
about $15 ppd as I recall. My situation is that my house is built with
concrete/rebar construction, metal 'persiana' windows and screens and
its hard to get a signal out of here even on the various cellular bands.
I think the highest band there is 1.8 GHz.
I didn't go for gain since the path to the site is only about 1.3 miles
away so I opted for the little guy, about 7 inches tall, that just sits
on the roof. On the other hand, a friend in a different location got
himself into all sorts of problems with reflections and multiple tower
sites and is now looking for a directional antenna to minimize the clutter.
Another consideration is the vertical angle between you and the site.
The "high gain" verticals (I've seen ones claiming 14db) have a rather
flattened omni pattern so that if you have to look upwards to your
intended site you might find the gain to be considerably less, if any.
GL,
Bill
Vieques, PR
Bill Kearney
"DaveC" <m...@bogusdomain.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C54BA58A...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> Looking for outdoor omni "whip" antenna for 2.4 GHz.
Whip antenna? What is this, for a vehicle? For a stationary location it
seems like it'd be an extremely bad idea to use an antenna that 'whipped'
around.
> Is there any reason to not go for the greatest gain antenna, given that
> cost
> is not too important (within reason)?
Alligator effect. Wide mouth receiving everything. If you don't need to
pickup everything then why bother? It just makes it harder for your WiFi
router to cut through all the noise of distant stations it doesn't
communicate with. Get the right antenna suited for your installation, no
more, no less.
Which leads to the constant request, when you ask a question POST WHAT GEAR
YOU'RE USING.
In your case it would also help to define what sort of connection you're
trying to make. Point to point, metropolitan, etc.
-Bill Kearney
Dave
to female TNC.
John Smith
> ...
> In your case it would also help to define what sort of connection you're
> trying to make. Point to point, metropolitan, etc.
>
> -Bill Kearney
His original post began, "Looking for outdoor omni "whip" antenna for
2.4 GHz. "
Now, why can't I make any sense out of your post, in relationship to
his? "Omni" has more than one meaning?
Regards,
JS
JB
news:gg5qna$dfh$2...@news.albasani.net...
I concur. I like the Huntgate solution but prefer to use Ethernet for the
run. However, there is a problem with using a high gain omni antenna in an
urban area where there is a lot of channel loading. Your throughput drops
because you are spending a lot of time with collision avoidance. This might
work at night, but not if everyone leaves their wireless up all the time.
WiFi was meant to be short range. When you improve your range, you compound
your interference problem exponentially. If you use a Pringles can you have
a big advantage because it is as if you moved your low gain antenna closer
to the AP but you still have the problem of the connections the AP hears but
you don't hear and can't avoid colliding with. At least you aren't being
bombarded with broadcasts.
Simply put, there are limitations to performance when you put yourself in a
crowded situation.
John Smith
> ...
> I concur. I like the Huntgate solution but prefer to use Ethernet for the
> run. However, there is a problem with using a high gain omni antenna in an
> urban area where there is a lot of channel loading. Your throughput drops
> because you are spending a lot of time with collision avoidance. This might
> work at night, but not if everyone leaves their wireless up all the time.
>
> WiFi was meant to be short range. When you improve your range, you compound
> your interference problem exponentially. If you use a Pringles can you have
> a big advantage because it is as if you moved your low gain antenna closer
> to the AP but you still have the problem of the connections the AP hears but
> you don't hear and can't avoid colliding with. At least you aren't being
> bombarded with broadcasts.
>
> Simply put, there are limitations to performance when you put yourself in a
> crowded situation.
>
Taking in your text, "overall", I fail to find anything I would nit-pick
at ...
But, you know, as well as I, we are going to attempt to expand range to
and even beyond "its' limits", like a mountain--just because it is
there. :-)
I mean, "That is what we do!" <grin>
Regards,
JS
JB
Any excuse to raise the noise floor--
John Smith
>
> Any excuse to raise the noise floor--
>
Hmmm, I thought you "bright enough", guess I was wrong ... :-(
Your newsreader has no filters? You are not "bright enough" to use them?
You are not "bright enough" to have figured this out?
You are not "bright enough" to get by without someone telling you?
Etc.?
Filter me, IDIOT!
Regards,
(but STOP your incessant bitching, trust me, the wife is enough ... if I
need more, I'll ask you ... trust me, I won't go wanting ... ROFLOL!)
JS :-)
John Smith
> ...
> Any excuse to raise the noise floor--
>
Whoa ... I apologize to the wife ... she just read the previous post, I
made, to this one ...
She pointed out that you are MUCH WORSE than her--she asked me if you
were gay or had "problems", she did NOT laugh ...
I will not repeat that mistake (next time I won't show her ...
HEHEHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!)
Regards,
JS
John Smith
> ...
> Simply put, there are limitations to performance when you put yourself in a
> crowded situation.
>
You know, JB? Ever since you have entered here, I found you to be an
idiot? I mean, I don't want to be rude, or anything ... now, you have
fertile ground to prove me wrong! I will pause for the words of wisdom
which change my life ...
But then, what are you? Do you have a book you quote from? Do you have
any antennas you are experimenting with? Are they ancient ones, ones we
have seen a dozen times before now? Are you one who wishes to "buddy up
with one(s)" already quoting one (or more) of the "great minds of
yesterday?" Are you here to quote from books for the poor?; i.e., those
who can't afford the books so you "throw quotes out, and bits-of-wisdom
for ignorant and starving minds?" Are you here to "enlighten my mind?"
Are you here to enlighten us all?
What are you about? Whatever it is, please get on with your "big bad
self." My patience grows thin and I am beginning to think you have
NOTHING to offer other than I have already seen? (and seen, many, many
times <yawn>)
But then, a pause, let us be "be-dazzled!" ... your forum awaits you ...
I now hang upon your every word! :-) Go forth and cure my ignorance!
Regards,
JS
ps56k
"Bill Kearney" <wkear...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FfCdnaXCtoZ3I7vU...@speakeasy.net...
with the Internet Wireless as your last choice,
then - as was mentioned above - what are you trying to accomplish
with this 2.4Ghz outdoor antenna ??
Since you used the term "whip" it tends to imply some physical motion or
vehicle,
vs a "vertical" which implies a stationary location.
And both imply a omni pattern - like a general Access Point -
highlandham
> Short Pringle's can, 1/4 wave probe, 1/2 wave from closed end, soldered
> to female TNC.
Yes these cans work well ; the problem is the type and length of coax .
A suitable arangement is a WiFi router near the antenna (if necessary in
a wx proof box ) with an ethernet cat5 cable running to the equipment.
Another possibility is a USB WiFi adaptor in the focal point of a
satellite dish with a USB to ethernet converter.
Frank KN6WH
JIMMIE
I recently built a Franklin antenna for 2.4Ghz.
I highly reccommend it. Google WiFi and franklin antenna.
Jimmie
DaveC
> vehicle,
> vs a "vertical" which implies a stationary location.
> And both imply a omni pattern - like a general Access Point -
-=-=-=-
OK, time to clarify...
Wifi (2.4 GHz). outdoor omni vertical (not whip), permanent mount on pole, to
be connected (very short pigtail) to pole-mounted wifi router in client mode.
Max output: 250 mW.
Is it true that the higher the gain the flatter the "donut" shape of the
sensitivity field?
(And yes, my terminology is rudimentary... please forgive.)
ps56k
>> Since you used the term "whip" it tends to imply some physical
>> motion or vehicle,
>> vs a "vertical" which implies a stationary location.
>> And both imply a omni pattern - like a general Access Point -
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> OK, time to clarify...
>
> Wifi (2.4 GHz). outdoor omni vertical (not whip), permanent mount on
> pole, to be connected (very short pigtail) to pole-mounted wifi
> router in client mode. Max output: 250 mW.
>
> Is it true that the higher the gain the flatter the "donut" shape of
> the sensitivity field?
>
> (And yes, my terminology is rudimentary... please forgive.)
>
> Thanks,
> --
> DaveC
dropped the x-posting to the ham groups -
--
why omni on a pole in "client mode" ?
If you are attemtping to connect to a specific Access Point,
this has been discussed here zillions of times,
and there are other questions, clarifications, and solutions available -
other than an omni -
Where are you in relation to the Access Point, how far, line of sight, etc
This requires a little different "thinking" than just putting up a bigger
stick
to talk to a 2m, 220, or 450 repeater -
exray
> Is it true that the higher the gain the flatter the "donut" shape of the
> sensitivity field?
>
> (And yes, my terminology is rudimentary... please forgive.)
I'm the one who initially committed than terminological crime so forgive
ME! Where is that big omni gain going to come from if not from the
vertical beamwidth? Start with the isotropic model pictured as a
spherical balloon. Squeeze it however you want to. Nothing about an
antenna can add volume to the model, its just a matter of how you
squeeze it.
-Bill
Paul Keinanen
>Is it true that the higher the gain the flatter the "donut" shape of the
>sensitivity field?
That is the only way to get actual gain from a (horizontally)
omnidirectional antenna (excluding any MIMO designs).
Flattening the vertical radiation pastern may have severe drawbacks
especially if the mast is swinging in the wind or some weak (e.g.
indoors) users are close to the base of the mast.
Paul OH3LWR
JB
> Any excuse to raise the noise floor--
>
what I tell you to do. That's what we have the news media for.
Bill Kearney
> OK, time to clarify...
You still don't describe what sort of connection you're trying to make.
JIMMIE
Also look up AMOS antenna. They are easy to make and work well
Jimmie
John Smith
You actually think I might ... damn, I'll work on my image! :-)
Regards,
JS
John Smith
> OK, time to clarify...
>
> Wifi (2.4 GHz). outdoor omni vertical (not whip), permanent mount on pole, to
> be connected (very short pigtail) to pole-mounted wifi router in client mode.
> Max output: 250 mW.
>
> Is it true that the higher the gain the flatter the "donut" shape of the
> sensitivity field?
>
> (And yes, my terminology is rudimentary... please forgive.)
>
> Thanks,
Then this should serve you well:
Regards,
JS
John Smith
>
> Also look up AMOS antenna. They are easy to make and work well
>
>
> Jimmie
Jimmie:
Excellent link, thanks; I will homebrew this when I get the time ...
However, with the reflector plate, it is not OMNI; but, for me this
would NOT be a problem ...
Good work,
regards,
JS
Wayne
"Dave" <da...@dave.dave> wrote in message
news:4926c4f8$0$31141$bd46...@news.dslextreme.com...
I have need of a directional antenna for a 30 foot path within the house.
(the microwave oven wipes out the signal).
Do you have any better details on construction?
highlandham
> (the microwave oven wipes out the signal).
>
> Do you have any better details on construction?
If your WiFi device is near the microwave oven , you indeed have a problem.
In my situation the oven is away (approx 7 - 8 metres) from the Wifi
system ,both router and laptop ,and I no longer had interference when
setting the WiFI System to the highest frequency (channel) with the
microwave oven freq at about 2390MHz.
Frank KN6WH
Knight
everyone absolutely
loves them.
Check em out here... http://www.biquadantenna.com
Sold 30 just this month alone, and get emails all the time from
clients
on how good their performance is.
If it doesn't work, you get your money back! (minus shipping of
course)
Thanks for looking!
Pete
JB
> I have need of a directional antenna for a 30 foot path within the house.
> (the microwave oven wipes out the signal).
>
Sometimes I have torn into things and found stupid stuff like paint over
grounding surfaces or rust in the compartment. There is a critical ground
around the probe entrance.
My microwave oven is in the far corner of the house and I run 100 watts on
VHF and 600 on HF at times and never had trouble. I never tried the laptop
in the kitchen for fear of spillage. The Linksys is essentially on the
floor to keep people in the park next door from ripping up my bandwidth.
(although sometimes I would prefer geeks hanging out there to chase the rest
out) No coverage problems at all. I do have an HT that gets "some"
interference when I set it on top of the oven.
John Smith
> Guys! I've been selling these Biquads for a long time now and
> everyone absolutely
> loves them.
> Check em out here... http://www.biquadantenna.com
> Sold 30 just this month alone, and get emails all the time from
> clients
> on how good their performance is.
> If it doesn't work, you get your money back! (minus shipping of
> course)
>
> Thanks for looking!
> Pete
Which picture depicts the omnidirectional one?
Regards,
JS
Jeff Liebermann
AMOS, Franklin, Sector, et al:
<http://pe2er.nl/wifisector/>
<http://yu1aw.ba-karlsruhe.de/vhf_ant.htm>
<http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/vhf_ant.htm>
<http://www.brest-wireless.net/gallery/AntenneAmos>
<http://www.brest-wireless.net/wiki/materiel:amos>
<http://www.brest-wireless.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=75&p=2>
NEC2 model:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-7/>
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-5/> (not optimized yet)
AMOS design:
<http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/amos_article.pdf>
Inverted AMOS:
<http://www.qsl.net/yu1aw/invertamos.pdf>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Wayne
"JB" <nos...@goofball.net> wrote in message
news:0aeWk.371$QX3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>> -
>> I have need of a directional antenna for a 30 foot path within the house.
>> (the microwave oven wipes out the signal).
>>
> Yikes! I have never seen that. I would be concerned about leakage.
> Sometimes I have torn into things and found stupid stuff like paint over
> grounding surfaces or rust in the compartment. There is a critical ground
> around the probe entrance.
>
>
wireless router is upstairs about 30 feet away with a desktop(and the path
goes through three walls and the floor. The microwave doesn't wipe out the
laptop, but slows things down a bit. A directional antenna would solve the
problem. I'm not trying to increase range at all.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>NEC2 model:
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-7/>
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-5/> (not optimized yet)
Fixed. I was feeling guilty so I ran it through the optimizer in
4NEC2. I haven't built a 5 dipole AMOS yet using these dimensions.
JIMMIE
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:32:02 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
> >NEC2 model:
> ><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-7/>
> ><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-5/> (not optimized yet)
>
> Fixed. I was feeling guilty so I ran it through the optimizer in
> 4NEC2. I haven't built a 5 dipole AMOS yet using these dimensions.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
I put one up I use with a WiFi repeater and I can see dozens of
wirless routers in my neighborhood. The antena i mounted at about
20ft on my chimney. There are about 8 or 9 with no security. If I so
chose I would never have to pay for internet service. There is another
subdivsion behind my house I havent even looked at that one yet.
Strange thing I know 3 of the people who have the open systems and
they are farly savy about these things. I wonder if they are leaving
them open on purpose.
Jimmie
John Smith
>> ...
> The laptop computer is downstairs about 10 feet from the microwave, and the
> wireless router is upstairs about 30 feet away with a desktop(and the path
> goes through three walls and the floor. The microwave doesn't wipe out the
> laptop, but slows things down a bit. A directional antenna would solve the
> problem. I'm not trying to increase range at all.
>
>
I had a cheap samsung (I think that was it) microwave, it did slow
internet ...
I now have a 1.2 KW GE ... it does not ...
However, a leakage meter did show leakage from the samsung, and barely
reads on GE I have now, and I mean I touch the microwaves case to get
that reading!
So, what is the point? Buyer beware, with lack of consumer protection,
I would check the microwave myself rather than trust others to safeguard
me ...
Regards
JS
John Smith
>> ...
> Strange thing I know 3 of the people who have the open systems and
> they are farly savy about these things. I wonder if they are leaving
> them open on purpose.
>
> Jimmie
I do. "They" call it a "honepot" (google it), fun to mess with 'em ... :-)
Regards,
JS
JB
"Wayne" <mygarb...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ggcr5n$3q1$1...@news.motzarella.org...
now, 5 bars might not do away with the problem. Moving the microwave just
5' more might be enough. You may have to bite the bullet and put in some
wiring to move the router.
Some of these guys are prone to take a practical problem like yours and turn
it into a full-blown engineering problem or a swap meet for their break
through technology or even an opportunity to throw mud. One engineering
problem we faced was how to contain UHF security and housekeeping repeaters
to a high rise building and it's underground structure. The final result
was 99% coverage in the building and the parking structure, but when
security went off the property, the radios went away. Visits to other
buildings showed no coverage there either. We had to do that for both
security and so we could get co-ordinated for licensing in an urban area.
But it was a multi-million dollar system. This is free.
Placing one of those in an upstairs room is an invitation to the neighbors.
I run a combination of wired and wireless. Wired to the desktop and to a
port replicator for the laptop and wireless to a print server with several
printers in a shop area, and the AP is off unless I want to roam around or
do print jobs. There are times I have printed from the laptop, wireless in
the shop to baby-sit print jobs, but it keeps the office clear and quiet.
One of these days I will have to run a cat5 out to the shop. It is simply
faster and more secure. The end result is my router, 1 foot off the floor
with the power set to 50% to do all I need to do.
JB
news:ggdhv1$r7u$2...@news.albasani.net...
Perhaps they want to take the blame for everyone downloading bootleg porn,
music and movies until their ISP terminates or throttles them for abuse.
Either that or they are trying to log mac addresses of those who do.
Jeff Liebermann
<JIMMIE...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>On Nov 23, 7:39 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:32:02 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >NEC2 model:
>> ><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-7/>
>> ><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-5/> (not optimized yet)
>>
>> Fixed. I was feeling guilty so I ran it through the optimizer in
>> 4NEC2. I haven't built a 5 dipole AMOS yet using these dimensions.
>I put one up I use with a WiFi repeater and I can see dozens of
>wirless routers in my neighborhood. The antena i mounted at about
>20ft on my chimney. There are about 8 or 9 with no security. If I so
>chose I would never have to pay for internet service. There is another
>subdivsion behind my house I havent even looked at that one yet.
If stealing internet service from the neighbors is your intended
purpose, you selected the wrong type of antenna. A sector antenna may
be a great idea for running a WISP or central access point, where
you're never sure of the direction the client radios are coming from.
It's a bad idea for use at the client end. The idea is to pickup as
little interference as possible. You're reception of 9 stations is a
problem as any one of these could provide sufficient interference to
make your pirated internet connection useless. I suggest you look
into a panel or dish antenna, which will provide a much narrower
horizontal beamwidth, with the added bonus of more antenna gain.
>Strange thing I know 3 of the people who have the open systems and
>they are farly savy about these things. I wonder if they are leaving
>them open on purpose.
I was running an open access point at my office for a while. However,
I was also monitoring connection attempts and traffic. I figured that
nobody would bother. Wrong. I had some bum in a pickup truck and
camper, connect regularly to make VoIP phone calls. I had no problem
with him using the system and we eventually came to an arrangement.
However, he stupidly told all his friends, who immediately abused the
system, so I locked it up with a WPA password.
In another incident, one of my customers was in a hotel that wanted
real money to use their Wi-Fi. (This was about 6 years ago, before
the widespread proliferation of free Wi-Fi service). So, he connected
to a random open access point. The security on his laptop was more
than a little lacking (writable shared folders), resulting in the
installation of multiple trojan horses, spam bots, etc. I suspect the
open access point was an intentional trap set for hotel visitors.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
John Smith
>> ...
>>> Jimmie
>> I do. "They" call it a "honepot" (google it), fun to mess with 'em ...
> :-)
>> Regards,
>> JS
>
> Perhaps they want to take the blame for everyone downloading bootleg porn,
> music and movies until their ISP terminates or throttles them for abuse.
> Either that or they are trying to log mac addresses of those who do.
>
Just noticed I spelled that wrong, "honeypot" ...
Yes, well, I take it for granted, anyone able to set up and run a
honeypot will also have the wits to manage it correctly ... but, ya'
never know, ya' just never know.
Best exercise is to trace-route them and report them to their, proper,
ISPs ...
Regards,
JS
John Smith
>
> If stealing internet service from the neighbors is your intended
> purpose, you selected the wrong type of antenna. ...
I'd say stealing is bit strong, I run an open wireless access point
here, its' SSID is "WelcomeAboard!"
I think that "wrong type" (referring to OMNI, apparently) of antenna is
perfect, given there are a few access points within range. You can
"bridge" multiple access points for better throughput ...
Regards,
JS
Jeff Liebermann
distribution line.
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:03:32 -0800, John Smith
<assembl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> If stealing internet service from the neighbors is your intended
>> purpose, you selected the wrong type of antenna. ...
>
>I'd say stealing is bit strong, I run an open wireless access point
>here, its' SSID is "WelcomeAboard!"
My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.
>I think that "wrong type" (referring to OMNI, apparently) of antenna is
>perfect, given there are a few access points within range.
I'll stand by my statement. Unless you're running a mesh network, an
omni at the client end is a bad idea. The client knows the direction
of the desired access point and should use a directional antenna to
minimize interference. In my limited experience (I ran a small WISP
and neighborhood LAN/WLAN for a few years) interference is the most
serious impediment to reliable operation. The more you can do to NOT
hear the undesired stations, the more reliable the connection.
>You can
>"bridge" multiple access points for better throughput ...
Sorta. You can do route switching easily enough, but load balancing
between multiple internet connections can't be done without IP
bonding, which requires everyone's cooperation (including the ISP's).
The problem is that you can't use multiple ISP's to improve the
download speed from a single connection. For example, if you want to
download a large file, it will only go as fast as the speed of the
fastest ISP connection. The other WAN interfaces remain comatose
because there's no way to bond the single destination IP to two
different download streams and routes. You can download something
else using the 2nd WAN interface, but you can't use it to increase the
speed of the first. Uploading has a similar limitation, where you
can't improve the speed to a single connection. Where such routers
work best is if there is a LAN full of users sharing multiple WAN
connections, not for a single user looking for "better throughput..."
I've used a few of these with moderate success:
<http://www.edimax.com/en/produce_list.php?pl1_id=3&pl2_id=>
(See load balancing and multi-homing routers near bottom of page).
Incidentally, multiple cient radios, run to a passive combiner in a
single omni antenna is a total loser. The FCC specifically proscribes
synchronizing wi-fi radios. Even if the isolation can be increased
sufficiently to prevent receiver overload, it's highly probable that a
receive packet will arrive exactly when some other client radio goes
into transmit. Some relief can be obtained by using different
non-overlapping channels (1, 6, 11), but only with expensive bandpass
cavity filters. The spread spectrum spreads quite nicely into the
spectrum of the adjacent radio.
Bill Kearney
> visitors.
Great way to collect accounts and passwords, sit outside a coffee shop with
some gear and you're set.
Bill Kearney
> assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
> door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.
Which raises the question, if someone uses your access point without
permission are you within your rights to do whatever you please with the
packets (and their contents) you detect?
Seems fair, steal my airwaves and I'll steal your data in return.
Jim Lux
>> My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
>> assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
>> door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.
>
> Which raises the question, if someone uses your access point without
> permission are you within your rights to do whatever you please with the
> packets (and their contents) you detect?
Is a unsecured wifi AP more like putting some benches on the sidewalk in
front of your house or a house with an unlocked front door?
This would a good example where the "law" isn't settled.
Unlike the door example, where there is millenia of houses and doorways
to establish a fairly common understanding of boundaries and permissions
required (and even then, it varies among places, right?)
To a first order, if you own one endpoint of the link (i.e the AP), then
you get to look at what its carrying. Unless you're a "common carrier"
or "utility" sort of organization.
And how far does YOUR liability extend, if, say, that miscreant out
front is using your AP to organize a terrorist plot? ISPs have a "safe
harbor": if they don't look at the content, they're not responsible.
Or, does having that open AP give you plausible deniability, and the
SODDI (Some other dude did it) defense... Hey man, it wasn't me
downloading copyrighted music to that IP, it must have been some other
dude with a laptop in a car out front. Bummer that I don't have any
traffic logs.
JB
> >here, its' SSID is "WelcomeAboard!"
>
> My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
> assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
> door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.
LMAO! My SSID is the same as my front gate Password. That way I never have
to worry about opening it when I get home from work and the party is always
in full swing when I get there! It's a little bit bothersome when dead
bodies turn up in the moat though!
Dave Platt
Bill Kearney <wkear...@hotmail.com> wrote:
As far as the FCC is concerned, I suspect that the usual "third party
reception" rules would apply. If the communication is transmitted
over the airwaves but is not intended for you, you're permitted to
intercept the communication but *not* to make gainful personal use of
what you overhear.
There was one company which tried to prosecute some local "wardrivers"
who had publicized the fact that the company was running an open
wireless network. The FCC not only refused to pursue their complaint
(pointing out that the company had created the problem and failed to
mitigate it by turning on WEP), but cited the company for running an
illegal Part 15 network (they were using external high-power
amplifiers on their APs).
I'm reasonably sure that any criminal actions you implement with the
use of such data (e.g. making any unauthorized access to a protected
computer system, etc.) would *NOT* seen as legitimate by The Powers
That Be, even if you gained knowledge of that data by scarfing it off
of your own access point during an unauthorized use thereof.
As I understand it, there isn't any standard interpretation (even in
under U.S. laws) as to what rights-of-usage apply to an open access
point, in the absence of a statement by the AP's owner as to what the
rules are. The FCC doesn't appear to consider this aspect of the
wireless problem to be part of their jurisdiction.
I believe that in some areas, using such an AP without having received
some explicit form of permission is considered to be a tort (a civil
wrong) and the owner could file suit against you. Using the AP to
break into a computer network (e.g. accessing files, etc.) could
easily qualify as a prosecutable "computer crime".
I've read that some municipalities have passed a rule which says that
the act of setting up an insecure access point, and broadcasting
beacons "to the wind", counts as something akin to an open
invitation... enough so that the use of the AP without explicit
permission isn't considered a crime, or (I think) even a tort. This
might especially be true in the case of those APs/routers which come
with a WEP password pre-installed (the 2Wire models are one example)
and in which the owner must explicitly disable the security feature if
s/he decides that this is appropriate.
--
Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
Jeff Liebermann
Nope. Two wrongs don't make a right. You'll also find that "an eye
for an eye" and retailiation are not actionable in the USA legal
system. Simply having your rights violated, does not magically make
it open season on the perpetrator. The courts are expected to deal
out the necessary justice, not you. For example, catching a burglar
in the act does not give you the right to pound him into the ground.
You can and probably will be charged with battery for doing that.
I have some experience and opinions with Wi-Fi related crimes and
enforcement, but I don't wanna start yet another political discussion.
Ed Cregger
"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:mj4ni4la1f6bljnn1...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:32:40 -0500, "Bill Kearney"
> <wkear...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
>>> assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
>>> door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.
>
>>Which raises the question, if someone uses your access point without
>>permission are you within your rights to do whatever you please with the
>>packets (and their contents) you detect?
>>
>>Seems fair, steal my airwaves and I'll steal your data in return.
>
> Nope. Two wrongs don't make a right. You'll also find that "an eye
> for an eye" and retailiation are not actionable in the USA legal
> system. Simply having your rights violated, does not magically make
> it open season on the perpetrator. The courts are expected to deal
> out the necessary justice, not you. For example, catching a burglar
> in the act does not give you the right to pound him into the ground.
> You can and probably will be charged with battery for doing that.
>
> I have some experience and opinions with Wi-Fi related crimes and
> enforcement, but I don't wanna start yet another political discussion.
----------
Just like feces and politicians, politics is a fact of life.
Where's my coffee...? <G>
Ed, N2ECW
JIMMIE
>
> - Show quoted text -
I dont steal internet service but I do have an arrangement with a
couple of my neighbors so we can use each other service.
This has come in handy a couple of time now in just the last few
months when my cable went out and another neighbors cable modem went
out.
Its also a ton of fun just to build the antennas and be able to do it.
I must confess I have tapped in to a few unsecure home APs to check my
email while traveling. These are often easier to find than a hotspot.
Jimmie
seaweedsl
> Looking for outdoor omni "whip" antenna for 2.4 GHz.
>
> is not too important (within reason)?
>
> experience with one or more of them and can make a recommendation for one.
Higher gain omni has flatter /narrower beam. So it has to be pointed
more accurately, tilting as needed to connect with desired AP.
As Jeff says, there's no reason to use an omni for a client. Get a
much cheaper directional antenna and you will get more gain with less
interference. Pointing will be easier too.
Take a look at the pattern for this one:
http://pnt.zoovy.com/product/MD24-12/12dBi_24GHz_Mini_Directional_Antenna.html
Or consider a combination weatherproof box with built in panel antenna
like this: http://tinyurl.com/5kfd42
(Choose the version that has the pigtail you need)
That's the first thing you want to determine, by the way, how much
gain is needed? Another thread....
Steve
exray
> I dont steal internet service but I do have an arrangement with a
> couple of my neighbors so we can use each other service.
> This has come in handy a couple of time now in just the last few
> months when my cable went out and another neighbors cable modem went
> out.
> Its also a ton of fun just to build the antennas and be able to do it.
>
> I must confess I have tapped in to a few unsecure home APs to check my
> email while traveling. These are often easier to find than a hotspot.
>
> Jimmie
Funny story... I work as a contractor and was in an office in Louisiana
that supposedly had an internal wi-fi setup. Signal sure did seem weak
for an internal connection. All the guys there said they didn't know
what happened to it. "It used to work good".
Mr. Boss, the guy who installed it originally, was in town and said
"hey, whats wrong with the wifi?". Turns out the little wireless router
had fallen behind some other gear and become unplugged. All during this
time the office traffic had been going thru the network of a nearby
residence.
John Smith
>
> My home system is "1540 Jackson Ave" which is my address. The
> assumption is that someone wanting to use my system can bang on the
> door and ask permission. My office SSID uses the company name.
> ...
Yes, well, my time is too valuable to me ... this is the territory of
control freaks and game players. I am working to provide free, high
speed, internet to all ... yes, I envision homeless people with laptops
on the internet, OF COURSE!
>
> I'll stand by my statement. Unless you're running a mesh network, an
> omni at the client end is a bad idea. The client knows the direction
> of the desired access point and should use a directional antenna to
> minimize interference. In my limited experience (I ran a small WISP
> and neighborhood LAN/WLAN for a few years) interference is the most
> serious impediment to reliable operation. The more you can do to NOT
> hear the undesired stations, the more reliable the connection.
>
Standby and wait for the world to begin ... you won't be alone.
>
> Sorta. You can do route switching easily enough, but load balancing
> between multiple internet connections can't be done without IP
> bonding, which requires everyone's cooperation (including the ISP's).
> The problem is that you can't use multiple ISP's to improve the
> download speed from a single connection. For example, if you want to
> download a large file, it will only go as fast as the speed of the
> fastest ISP connection. The other WAN interfaces remain comatose
> because there's no way to bond the single destination IP to two
> different download streams and routes. You can download something
> else using the 2nd WAN interface, but you can't use it to increase the
> speed of the first. Uploading has a similar limitation, where you
> can't improve the speed to a single connection. Where such routers
> work best is if there is a LAN full of users sharing multiple WAN
> connections, not for a single user looking for "better throughput..."
>
> I've used a few of these with moderate success:
> <http://www.edimax.com/en/produce_list.php?pl1_id=3&pl2_id=>
> (See load balancing and multi-homing routers near bottom of page).
>
See, that is the thing with programmers, imagine it and we make it
happen ... if someone tells you "impossible" they are LYING! BIGTIME!
> Incidentally, multiple cient radios, run to a passive combiner in a
> single omni antenna is a total loser. The FCC specifically proscribes
> synchronizing wi-fi radios. Even if the isolation can be increased
> sufficiently to prevent receiver overload, it's highly probable that a
> receive packet will arrive exactly when some other client radio goes
> into transmit. Some relief can be obtained by using different
> non-overlapping channels (1, 6, 11), but only with expensive bandpass
> cavity filters. The spread spectrum spreads quite nicely into the
> spectrum of the adjacent radio.
>
If you look for why something cannot be done, I believe it, you will
find it ... if you look how to make something happen, you will, most
likely succeed--given the time and investment of energy ...
Naysayers abound, this group is an excellent place to find them, I don't
consider these people "assets." Frankly, I just ignore them and go
on--you will choose what you wish ... all you have to do is decide on
the path ... but then, something tells me you already have been told
this, and not just once.
Regards,
JS
John Smith
...
It has been my experience, 1 in 10,000 know what they are doing ...
basically, it is a moot point.
Regards,
JS
John Smith
> ...
> Just like feces and politicians, politics is a fact of life.
>
> Where's my coffee...? <G>
>
>
> Ed, N2ECW
LOL!
Best post I ever seen you do! <GRIN>
Warm regards,
JS
John Smith
> ...
> I dont steal internet service but I do have an arrangement with a
> couple of my neighbors so we can use each other service.
> This has come in handy a couple of time now in just the last few
> months when my cable went out and another neighbors cable modem went
> out.
> Its also a ton of fun just to build the antennas and be able to do it.
>
> I must confess I have tapped in to a few unsecure home APs to check my
> email while traveling. These are often easier to find than a hotspot.
>
> Jimmie
I have a clearwire modem (it is great, inverter in the car, take it any
place with access), cable modem, and one company I contract with has
provided me with a T1 line ... the T1 is what I leave open.
Regards,
JS
JB
>
> Where's my coffee...? <G>
>
>
> Ed, N2ECW
>
the destructive power of the propaganda and now we are all screwed.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32cxf_yuri-bezmenov
Bruce in alaska
<f18ee327-fbd3-4e0b...@e1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
seaweedsl <seawee...@gmail.com> wrote:
There are outfits that make Omni Antennas for the 2.4 Ghz Band, that
have Down-tilt designed into them. This helps deal with the flattening
of the Vertical Polarization for local connections. I have one located
on a 60ft Tower that has multiple AP's at various Azimuths, with ranges
out to 2 miles. Works well for a Central Distribution.
--
Bruce in alaska
add <path> after <fast> to reply
seaweedsl
> There are outfits that make Omni Antennas for the 2.4 Ghz Band, that
> have Down-tilt designed into them.......Works well for a Central Distribution.
>
> --
Agreed, for an AP, if 360 coverage is needed, an omni with downtilt
is an appropriate option.
Not for clients.
Bruce in alaska
<249c95e5-13df-4b5d...@q30g2000prq.googlegroups.com>,
seaweedsl <seawee...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yep, for Clients, I use 12dbi Panel Antennas, which are very compact and
provide the required F/B Ratio and gain, for each link.
John Navas
<wkear...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<FfCdnaXCtoZ3I7vU...@speakeasy.net>:
>"DaveC" <m...@bogusdomain.net> wrote in message
>news:0001HW.C54BA58A...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>> Is there any reason to not go for the greatest gain antenna, given that
>> cost is not too important (within reason)?
>
>Alligator effect. Wide mouth receiving everything.
"Alligator effect" normally refers to higher transmit power (not higher
antenna gain) -- big mouth, small ears.
>If you don't need to
>pickup everything then why bother? It just makes it harder for your WiFi
>router to cut through all the noise of distant stations it doesn't
>communicate with. ...
It actually usually makes sense, since higher gain means narrower
receive pattern, which better rejects off-axis interference.
Interference in exactly the same path is possible but unlikely.
--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://wireless.navas.us>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.navas.us/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>
John Smith
>> ...
> "Alligator effect" ...
Brings to mind "Alligator Stations" I have contacted in the past--BIG
mouth (large power amplifer) no ears (poor reception on their ends) ...
<grin>
Regards,
JS
d_mus...@yahoo.com
> cost is not too important (within reason)?
>
> experience with one or more of them and can make a recommendation for
> one.
>
This antenna works great wit my laptop and desktop:
D-Link ANT24-0700 Antenna, 7db gain
http://dealnews.com/D-Link-7-d-Bi-Omni-Directional-Indoor-Wireless-Antenna-
for-15-after-rebate-free-shipping/262642.html
--
-
d_mus...@yahoo.com
> > OK, time to clarify...
>
> You still don't describe what sort of connection you're trying to make.
I have this Comet antenna mounted on my roof and it works super!
http://www.wlanparts.com/product/GP-24/GP24_24GHz_15dbi_Omni_from_Comet.htm
l
--
-
moronsbegone
@news.albasani.net:
Why do all the "Tinyurl.com" links turn up DEAD.?
--
May You reep the poverrty You have Voted for.
moronsbegone
> JIMMIE wrote:
>
> >> ...
>> Strange thing I know 3 of the people who have the open
>> systems and they are farly savy about these things. I
>> wonder if they are leaving them open on purpose.
>>
>> Jimmie
>
> I do. "They" call it a "honepot" (google it), fun to mess
> with 'em ... :-)
>
> Regards,
> JS
I especially enjoy being the one they are trying to mess with,
port 563 SSL 1024 bit encrypted connection to amsterdam good
luck, !!! No-one wants to clobber those ports, if they do they
can't online bank LOL.
moronsbegone
> However, he stupidly told all his friends, who immediately
> abused the system, so I locked it up with a WPA password.
Real easy to crack, google BackTrack 3 and weep. I preffer
cracking them for it is assured there is not much traffic on the
WEP and WPK pretected WiFi's .