Need a Quad Band Base Vertical

[Tom W3TDH]

Does anyone know of a manufacturer that makes a four band Six Meter through Seventy Centimeter vertical. We need them as the rooftop antennas for the operating positions at the Emergency Operations Center (EOC).

--
Tom Horne W3TDH

[Jeff Liebermann]

>Tom Horne W3TDH

Receive only or transmit and receive?

For receive only, a common discone antenna will work.
<http://www.diamondantenna.net/d130j.html>
Not much gain, some pattern uptilt, but 50 ohms over the entire
VHF-UHF frequency range. Very useful for a scanner.

For transmit, you'll want something better.
If you ignore 220MHz, this should work:
<http://www.diamondantenna.net/v2000a.html>

Howver, if you absolutely must have all 4 bands on one coax, I suggest
you buy or build a suitable diplexer and install two antennas. Some
planning and calculatation will be required. For example, antennas
that cover 144, 220, and 440 Mhz are common enough
<http://www.diamondantenna.net/x3200a.html>
so that will be one port of the diplexer. The other port will be a 50
MHz antenna. This diplexer splits at about 60 MHz:
<http://www.diamondantenna.net/mx62m.html>
or, just make your own diplexer:
<http://vk3atl.org/technical/Diplexer_1cc.pdf>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Rob]

Tom W3TDH <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know of a manufacturer that makes a four band Six Meter through Seventy Centimeter vertical. We need them as the rooftop antennas for the operating positions at the Emergency Operations Center (EOC).

What four bands?

50/70/144/430 or 50/144/220/430?

[Channel Jumper]

'Jeff Liebermann[_2_ Wrote:
> ;813453']On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 15:05:09 -0800 (PST), Tom W3TDH
> hor...@gmail.com wrote:
> -

> Does anyone know of a manufacturer that makes a four band Six Meter
> through Seventy Centimeter vertical.
> We need them as the rooftop antennas for the operating positions at the
> Emergency Operations Center (EOC).

> Tom Horne W3TDH-

>
> Receive only or transmit and receive?
>
> For receive only, a common discone antenna will work.
> http://www.diamondantenna.net/d130j.html
> Not much gain, some pattern uptilt, but 50 ohms over the entire
> VHF-UHF frequency range. Very useful for a scanner.
>
> For transmit, you'll want something better.
> If you ignore 220MHz, this should work:
> http://www.diamondantenna.net/v2000a.html
>
> Howver, if you absolutely must have all 4 bands on one coax, I suggest
> you buy or build a suitable diplexer and install two antennas. Some
> planning and calculatation will be required. For example, antennas
> that cover 144, 220, and 440 Mhz are common enough
> http://www.diamondantenna.net/x3200a.html
> so that will be one port of the diplexer. The other port will be a 50
> MHz antenna. This diplexer splits at about 60 MHz:
> http://www.diamondantenna.net/mx62m.html
> or, just make your own diplexer:
> http://vk3atl.org/technical/Diplexer_1cc.pdf
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I would have to agree with Jeff - to a point that a Discone antenna is a
good all around antenna. However, it does give up some distance to
compensate for its versatility.

For 1.25 meters ( 220 mhz ) about all you would need to do is add a
couple of ground plane's for the 220 band to a Diamond Discone antenna.

Most people here uses Diamond Discone antenna's for public service
work.

Technically it will tune up somewhere in the 10 meters band also,
although a good antenna tuner is a must for most bands.

The next best option would be to purchase the Diamond V2000 antenna.

It was designed for the Yaesu FT 8900R transceiver.

It will do 6 meters FM, 2 meters FM, and 70 cm FM with less then a 2:1
VSWR.

Most commercial antenna's such as the Comet or the Ringo Ranger, has a
high Q, which makes it suitable for use on one frequency and no where
else.

Most fire departments, ambulance garages, hospitals and airports here
has or had a Ringo Ranger on their roof at one time or another.
They make a real good dummy load also!




--
Channel Jumper

[Sal]

"Tom W3TDH" <hor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2628cc7b-bb58-481f...@googlegroups.com...

I know you said "manufactures," but a multiband vertical can be constructed
with copper pipe j-pole technology. One such device is offered for
home-brewers as the "Copper Cactus," along the lines of what you find here:

http://www.softpedia.com/progScreenshots/J-POLE-Screenshot-172962.html

Scroll down to see the multiband version. Note that the three-band
configuration shown could be built onto a 6m radiator, yielding all four
bands on a single structure. (No, I don't know exactly how the dimensions
might need to be adjusted; I didn't study the article quite closely enough,
yet.) I do know that some j-poles seem to require a series capacitor at the
feed to get the SWR low-point to 1:1. If the VSWR minimum falls in-band but
is high, try a 50pF to 100 pF cap. I stole that idea after reading about the
gamma match cap.

I have built about two dozen j-poles, probably 20 of which were copper pipe.
I've done four for 6m, one of windowline and four of copper pipe. All good.
Most were 1/2-inch pipe but I stepped up the diameter of the pipe to
3/4-inch for the 6m version. It added needed rigidity. You might want to
go to 1-inch for more strength if you have the other antennas stacked up on
it.

Three of my j-poles are over 15 years old, sitting atop the local firehouse
where we have a RACES station They're for 6m voice, 2m voice and 2m packet.
Our 2m voice j-pole also works for 440. (Yes, I know the 440 radiation
pattern on a 2m j-pole is less-than-ideal.)

See http://www.ve3sqb.com/ for design programs, hints and kinks. Multiple
feedlines may be used or some combination of diplexer/triplexer.
(quadplexer???) Decoupling the feedline is strongly recommended by many
builders. I do it.

"Sal"
(KD6VKW)

[Channel Jumper]

'Sal[_4_ Wrote:
> ;813542']"Tom W3TDH" hor...@gmail.com wrote in message
> news:2628cc7b-bb58-481f...@googlegroups.com...-

> Does anyone know of a manufacturer that makes a four band Six Meter
> through Seventy Centimeter vertical. We need them as the rooftop
> antennas
> for the operating positions at the Emergency Operations Center (EOC).
>
> --

> Tom Horne W3TDH-

>
> I know you said "manufactures," but a multiband vertical can be
> constructed
> with copper pipe j-pole technology. One such device is offered for
> home-brewers as the "Copper Cactus," along the lines of what you find
> he
>

> http://tinyurl.com/lw2tpqd

Because of the location, these people needs a commercial grade antenna
that can withstand the elements and is reliable.
Homebrew junk is reliant upon the skills of the builder and they are
designed to teach theory more then they are as a permanent replacement
for something better.
The problem with amateur radio today is that most people are not willing
to spend the money to become a ham and they think that all you have to
do is pass a test and get a license and you are automatically a ham.
If all a person has is a hamshack on a belt then they are not going to
have the kind of signal necessary to be able to communicate back to the
EOC from anywhere in the county.
We proved that with our local ARES group when they tried to deploy two
years ago for a SET.
Because these guys talked CB on the 2 meters FM from their QTH they
thought that they could do the same thing with J Poles and 40 watt
mobiles with no repeater assistance. There was just too many hills
between the EOC and the corners of the county.
911 centers are built in the most convenient locations - a place the
county already owns such as in the basement of the courthouse or the
jail and not in the highest places in the county.
\ This persons situation calls for some education, where a group of
people are assembled and they are not relying upon one operator.

This means individual computers for each member of the group and
individual radios for each member of the group. Each on it's own
frequency. I visited one such location last January. Each member of
the team had their own vest with their rank on the vest and they had
both an ARES and a RACES hat.

Because of a lack of participation, the one group would handle the set
up and the other group would take over even though they were the same
group...




--
Channel Jumper

[Jerry Stuckle]

Maybe YOURS is junk. But I know a lot of hams (including myself) who
have homebrewed antennas and other things which last longer than the
manufactured ones.

> The problem with amateur radio today is that most people are not willing
> to spend the money to become a ham and they think that all you have to
> do is pass a test and get a license and you are automatically a ham.
> If all a person has is a hamshack on a belt then they are not going to
> have the kind of signal necessary to be able to communicate back to the
> EOC from anywhere in the county.

Again, incorrect. That's what repeaters are for.

No, here in Montgomery County, MD, you aren't going to contact the EOC
direct - I couldn't do it from about 3 miles away during the SET with
45W from my car. But that's also because the EOC is only a two story
building and sits in a hole (I was able to be heard by another mobile >
10M away). No antenna, no matter what you do, will fix that problem.

But then that's what repeaters are for.

> We proved that with our local ARES group when they tried to deploy two
> years ago for a SET.

Speak for yourself. There are many places, especially out in the
midwest, where the ground is flat and an antenna on a 5 story building
can cover the entire county on both 144 Mhz and 440 Mhz.

> Because these guys talked CB on the 2 meters FM from their QTH they
> thought that they could do the same thing with J Poles and 40 watt
> mobiles with no repeater assistance. There was just too many hills
> between the EOC and the corners of the county.

Again, that's your county.

> 911 centers are built in the most convenient locations - a place the
> county already owns such as in the basement of the courthouse or the
> jail and not in the highest places in the county.
> \ This persons situation calls for some education, where a group of
> people are assembled and they are not relying upon one operator.
>

Not always. For instance, around ten years ago the county built our EOC
as a separate entity away from the county courthouse et. al. Before
that it was in the basement of the county courthouse.

Personally I think it was a poor choice for location, but what the heck
- I'm only a taxpayer.

> This means individual computers for each member of the group and
> individual radios for each member of the group. Each on it's own
> frequency. I visited one such location last January. Each member of
> the team had their own vest with their rank on the vest and they had
> both an ARES and a RACES hat.
>

I have NO IDEA why each member of the group needs their own computer.
In fact, computers in the field are usually more of a hindrance than a
help, especially if you're mobile (or worse, on foot). And again I have
no idea why each one would need its own frequency.

Ah, each member has a rank. That actually explains a lot.

> Because of a lack of participation, the one group would handle the set
> up and the other group would take over even though they were the same
> group...
>
>

I don't understand how changing names affects lack of participation.
But lack of participation is a problem all over the country, and has
been for the 46 years I've been a ham. When I was an EC (total of about
15 years) I was able to get participation up quite a bit, enough to have
a sufficient cadre of trained operators when a real emergency came along
(and yes, it did, more than once). It's not easy, but it can be done.

However, giving each person a rank is bad, IMHO. It feels great for
those at the top - but discourages people from entering. I always had
3-4 assistants, and everyone else was equal. It worked quite well.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
jstu...@attglobal.net
==================

[Sal]

"Jerry Stuckle" <jstu...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:la464h$e71$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 1/2/2014 9:23 AM, Channel Jumper wrote:
>>

>> 'Sal Wrote:

//MAJOR SNIPPING //

>>> Three of my j-poles are over 15 years old, sitting atop the local
>>> firehouse

>>> where we have a RACES station .

>> Homebrew junk is reliant upon the skills of the builder and they are
>> designed to teach theory more then they are as a permanent replacement
>> for something better.
>
> Maybe YOURS is junk. But I know a lot of hams (including myself) who have
> homebrewed antennas and other things which last longer than the
> manufactured ones.
>

// MORE SNIPPING //

>> I always had 3-4 assistants, and everyone else was equal. It worked
>> quite well.

Thanks for taking this on, point-by-point, Jerry. You said it better than I
could have.

"Sal"
(KD6VKW)

[boomer]

Thanks Jerry for addressing this misrepresentation of ham radio. This
guy got it all wrong probably from inexperience. It certainly looks that
way. I love my home brew loop on 75. It has been up for 7 years now.

Again, thanks for correcting blatant ignorance.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 14:23:04 +0000, Channel Jumper
<Channel.Jum...@radiobanter.com> wrote:

>Because of the location, these people needs a commercial grade antenna
>that can withstand the elements and is reliable.

Not quite. I define antenna reliability as availability. That
translates into the number of hours per year that the antenna cannot
be used. For example, if your antenna fails and it takes 1 hr to
repair, then you have:
1hr / 8766 * 100% = 1.14% downtime
or:
(8766 - 1) / 8766 = 0.99989 reliability
as used in calculating wireless link availability. Note that by my
definition, a crude and simple antenna is more reliable than a giant
tower topped with several layers of giant antennas. Of course, the
giant antenna will work better than a crude and simple wire antenna,
but in terms of reliability, crude and simple wins. That seems to
follow my limited experience where crude and simple are more reliable
than massive and complicated.

>Homebrew junk is reliant upon the skills of the builder and they are
>designed to teach theory more then they are as a permanent replacement
>for something better.

Obviously, teaching you theory has failed because you prefer to
purchase commercial grade antennas. May I recommend building a few
antennas to improve your understanding of the radio art.

>The problem with amateur radio today is that most people are not willing
>to spend the money to become a ham and they think that all you have to
>do is pass a test and get a license and you are automatically a ham.

Well, at least your first sentence wasn't an insult. You just moved
it to the 3rd sentence. I again suggest that you make an effort to
not insult the reader as it wrecks your credibility, even if you
happen to be correct.

Most of the hams I know spend about the same amount of time and money
as one would on any other hobby. Ham radio is not tailored as a rich
or poor mans hobby. I know of several hams, due to CC&R's, that do
not have any radio equipment, and prefer to operate online using CQ100
or HamSphere. Except for the lack of RF, it's exactly like ham radio
and quite inexpensive. I also know of hams that have more money than
common sense and purchase the latest and greatest as soon as it's
available for sale. Their junk box is my dream station.

>If all a person has is a hamshack on a belt then they are not going to
>have the kind of signal necessary to be able to communicate back to the
>EOC from anywhere in the county.

That depends on the location of the EOC. In the past, it was in the
basement of the county building, with antennas on the roof of the 5
story building. Today, it's on a 300ft rise that overlooks about 1/3
of the county:
<http://www.scr911.org/about/photos/front_full.jpg>
In the future, it will probably move to a rented office building, but
the remote controlled radios will remain at their current location. As
always, if you want coverage, think carefully about location.

You are correct about the range and usability of HT's. They can hear
much farther than they can talk. While one central dispatch
transmitter can usually be heard everywhere, the reply from the HT's
cannot be heard reliably without multiple receivers scattered around
the county and a receiver voting system.

A 50/144/220/440 MHz combined antenna is at best going to be a
compromise. If communicating with HT's directly is important, then
everything should be subordinated to obtaining proper coverage. That
could mean separate antennas. That could also mean directional
antennas if the EOC is not centrally located. It could also mean
using a yagi and rotator as events and incidents tend to be clustered
in specific areas of the county and are rarely county wide. Or, it
could mean that the county only has room for one antenna for
ARES/RACES on their tower and a quad band conglomeration is all that
will fit.

It's also unusual for an EOC to have a single radio covering all 4
bands. More likely, it's a collection of commercial and ham mobiles.
While it's possible to connect more than one radio to a shared coax
cable using a quadplexer, the potential for mutual interference (and
accidental RX front end destruction) is usually too much to risk.

The bottom line is that the antenna design must conform to a variety
of physical and coverage, none of which were specified in the original
question. To assume that the OP's situation is the same as yours or
mine seems unlikely.

Incidentally, I do quite a few coverage maps for various hams,
agencies, clients, and RF paranoids. Quite a bit can be learned from
them. It's important for fixed installations, such as EOC centers to
know into what areas their radios will cover. It's also a good
indication that something might be wrong with the antenna system if
the predicted coverage is lacking. We've identified a few broken
radios and deficient antennas in this manner. For example, this is
the VHF coverage of our local repeater (K6BJ):
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/coverage/K6BJ-02/146mhz/k6bj-vhf-repeater-building-to-mobile-03.jpg>
The gray areas have little or no signal. Anything with color can have
a usable signal, with a proper antenna.

If you have Google Earth on your computah, download these two files
into the same directory:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/coverage/K6BJ-02/146mhz/Picture7.jpg
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/coverage/K6BJ-02/146mhz/Picture7.kml
Click on the KML file and you'll see the coverage map in 3D. Push and
hold the middle mouse button while moving the mouse around, and you
can see the coverage from various points of view.
If you see "holes" in the overlay or the trees look weird:
Tools -> Options -> 3D View -> Terrain
and uncheck "Use 3D imagery".

I have similar coverage maps for other local repeaters, with which
areas that will require a portable repeater can be predicted. You
might want to do one of your local EOC and nail to a bulletin board.
If you need instructions, detail, hints, examples, just ask.

[Irv Finkleman]

Hey Boomer,

I plan to brew a loop when
the weather warms up (it's currently -28C here in Calgary -- warm up should
take place around the end of May if all goes well) and wonder if you have
any hints and kinks to pass along. I have the motor and capacitor, and will
be
using 20MM flexible copper tubing. I hope to feed it with a gamma match but
am
still open to suggestions. I am primarily interested in 75M but because I
live
in a senior's residence, I am restricted to operating eitheir off of a small
balcony, or indooors. I will be QRP with 5W.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide,

Irv VE6BP (email finkirv at shaw.ca)


.

[boomer]

Sorry Irv,

I cannot be of any help. My loop is a full size one strung around my
city lot. I believe you are planning what is often called a magnetic
loop. Anyway that is the loop that is quite small. Mine is a full
wavelength in circumference.

I have a lot of things I could tell you about mine I learned from trial
and error.

I have heard good things about the "magnetic loop". They seem to work
well. I was even going to build one for 160 until I found out how high a
voltage rating was required for the variable capacitor. The project was
no longer practical running 1200 watts.

You may have seen another idea for balcony ham radio. It is two loaded
mobile verticals assembled as a dipole. That does work for some. You
could probably run 100 watts too.

BTW it is -8 F here right now. It was -14 this morning. We are expecting
-28F tomorrow night. It may easily be worse. We live in the UP of Michigan.

We are also eagerly awaiting the Canadian invasion. It is a new
conspiracy theory being passed around the right wing crazies in the USA.
A politician here said that Obama was sending nukes to Canada to they
could invade and then force socialized medicine on us. It was difficult
for me to keep from laughing so hard. Maybe I am wrong about this.
Please let us know if you guys are planning to invade us. I will need to
prepare by getting out our spare bed and providing food and shelter to
the Canadian troops. :-)

Good Luck

[Irv Finkleman]

No problem -- I assumed incorrectly! At QRP levels you don't need the
HV caps! Unfortunately I don't have room even for a 10m dipole on the
balcony. but I do have some good alternatives I'm ready to experiment
with including an MP1 vertical, and a slinky as soon as I can find some
support for it. I'm biding my time over the cold wx and reading all I can
find on compact antenna systems, and planning various things I can
try -- my new motto has become 'Radiate Or Die Trying' :-)

I won't have time to partake of the invasion of the USA -- I'll be too
darn busy trying to get a signal out on the air, and once I do, I'll
be much too busy hamming!

Thanks for the reply.

Irv VE6BP

--
(snipped for brevity)

[Ralph Mowery]

You may want to try one of the screwdriver antennas if you can make a decent
ground system.


"Irv Finkleman" <fin...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:kIpyu.233347$kN2....@fx19.iad...

> No problem -- I assumed incorrectly! At QRP levels you don't need the
> HV caps! Unfortunately I don't have room even for a 10m dipole on the
> balcony. but I do have some good alternatives I'm ready to experiment
> with including an MP1 vertical, and a slinky as soon as I can find some
> support for it. I'm biding my time over the cold wx and reading all I can
> find on compact antenna systems, and planning various things I can
> try -- my new motto has become 'Radiate Or Die Trying' :-)

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Irv Finkleman]

Thanks Ralph,

The closest I'm going to come to ground from my 3rd floor suite
is through my MFJ-931. Artificial Ground Tuner. I also have some
counterpoise ideas which I will need with the MP1 antenna and
other things I plan to try. There is now an MP2 which is a motorized
version of the MP1 but I'm trying to keep costs to a minimum.
Most of my stuff now I purchased in non-working condition and
fixed up -- I'm a pretty good tech, and that has really allowed
me to operate on a shoestring budget. I will always be less than
10 ft from any antenna system I use, so adjustment is not really
a problem. I will, however, motor control the tuning of the magnetic
loop when I get it built.

I've got enough on hand now that once the weather warms up
(in late May or June) I should have something working that will
meet most if not all of my needs. My major problem is mobility
as I'm just finally recovering after 4 years of some pretty heavy
surgery -- but that seems to be doing pretty well and hopefully
I will remain hospital free for a long time, unless I decide to go
for a hair transplant! :-)

Thanks for the suggestion though -- I am always open to them
and consider them all.

Irv VE6BP

--
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece
of shit by the clean end.



"Ralph Mowery" <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MZGdnUKJkJdqtVfP...@earthlink.com...