Beverly Hillbilly Genealogy
Paul Reiser
[ From: Paul Reiser <le...@mtolympus.ari.net> ]
[ Subject: Beverly Hillbilly Genealogy ]
[ Newsgroups: rec.games.trivia ]
[ Message-ID: <kJpk4.71937$905.1...@news5.giganews.com> ]
I've been trying to figure out the relationships between the 5
characters on the Beverly Hillbillies (Jed, Ellie May, Granny,
Jethro, and Pearl) with the following facts or assumptions:
1. No incest - people who are closer than 2nd cousins don't have
children (ok, no wise remarks about hillbillies)
2. Granny is Ellie May's grandmother
3. Jed Clampett is Ellie May's father, and granny is his mother-in-law
4. Jethro is Granny's grand-nephew (This was stated by Granny
in an episode)
5. Pearl is Jethro's mother
6. Jethro's last name is Bodine
7. Ellie May and Jethro having children would be incest.
8. Pearl is Jethro's cousin (I think - he calls her "cousin Pearl"
but then Ellie May calls her pet chimp "cousin Bessie", so it
might be a generic term, like "Granny" is.)
9. Granny's name is Daisy May Moses, but I don't know if that is
a married name or maiden name.
I mean for example, Jed is NOT Jethro's blood uncle. If Jed was
Jethro's fathers brother, Jethro and Jed would have the same last
name and they dont. If Jed was Jethro's Mother's brother, he wouldn't
call her (his sister) "cousin Pearl".
Jed is NOT an uncle by marriage either - if he were, he would be
married to Jethro's aunt, who is Grannys daughter, which would make
Granny Jethro's grandmother, which he is not.
If anybody has any ideas on this, or if I have any facts wrong, I
would be glad to hear it.
Paul Reiser
RM Mentock
<snip>
> 5. Pearl is Jethro's mother
>
> 6. Jethro's last name is Bodine
>
> 7. Ellie May and Jethro having children would be incest.
>
> 8. Pearl is Jethro's cousin (I think - he calls her "cousin Pearl"
> but then Ellie May calls her pet chimp "cousin Bessie", so it
> might be a generic term, like "Granny" is.)
You meant "Pearl is Jed's cousin", perhaps? I don't remember
all the relationships, but otherwise this one conflicts with 5.
You also have that Jed is Jethro's uncle, right?
That is tough to be an uncle to Jethro, and cousin to Jethro's
mother--but what if Jed's half-brother (different name, no
blood relationship) married Jed's blood-cousin Pearl? Jed
would be both second cousin and half-uncle to Jethro. Hmm,
that sounds familiar.
--
RM Mentock
The war on ignorance begins with me
http://sentient.home.mindspring.com/dan/
Paul Reiser
: Paul Reiser wrote:
:> 8. Pearl is Jethro's cousin (I think - he calls her "cousin Pearl"
:> but then Ellie May calls her pet chimp "cousin Bessie", so it
:> might be a generic term, like "Granny" is.)
: You meant "Pearl is Jed's cousin", perhaps? I don't remember
: all the relationships, but otherwise this one conflicts with 5.
: You also have that Jed is Jethro's uncle, right?
RIGHT - that was a mistype on my part, it should read "Pearl is Jed's
cousin". But no, Jed can't be Jethro's uncle.
: That is tough to be an uncle to Jethro, and cousin to Jethro's
: mother--but what if Jed's half-brother (different name, no
: blood relationship) married Jed's blood-cousin Pearl? Jed
: would be both second cousin and half-uncle to Jethro. Hmm,
: that sounds familiar.
Yes! that would work. Jed's half brother would be a Bodine, and
they would have a common mother. But we still have to work in
how Granny is Jethro's great aunt. If Jed's mother was Granny's
sister that would work, but then wouldn't he call her "aunt"?
So it must be that Granny's sister is Pearl's mother. That
would make Pearl's maiden name Clampett. I wonder if there
are any other scenarios? I wonder if a good puzzle could be
constructed out of this, like "given the following facts,
what is Pearl's maiden name" or something like that.
Paul R.
Peter van der Linden
"Just Java", written by yours truly. After I had put all the
programs and compilers I wanted on the CD, I felt it was a shame
to waste the remaining space, so I filled it up with a bunch of
other useful info I had calculated, collected, or vacuum cleaned
over the years.
To save you buying the book (though I will say it has a picture of
a real live, operational flying saucer, built by the USAF, too), here
is my take on the BHB's:
... in terms of the Beverley HillBillies,
Gt Gran Clampett=Gt Gramp Clampett
/ \
child1=? child2=? Granny Daisy Mae=Grampy Moses(dec.)
| | |
?=Pearl Jed Clampett= Ma (dec.)
| |
Jethro Bodine Ellie Mae
I am told they explained all this in the first episode. Jed
is Ellie Mae's father. Ellie Mae's mother is dead. Granny
is Ellie Mae's mother's mother and Jed's mother-in-law. Pearl
is Jed's first cousin, so Pearl's son Jethro is Jed's first
cousin once removed and vice versa.
Some people get confused that Jethro calls Jed "Uncle Jed",
But it was explained that "he just calls him that". It's not
uncommon in many families for older male relatives to be
called "uncle" whether they are or not. He's actually Jethro's
first cousin once removed. Similarly, everyone calls Granny
"Granny" even though Ellie Mae is the only one she is a
grandmother to. And similarly, Ellie Mae calls her pet chimp
"cousin Bessie" (big yukfest).
"Just Java" -- and 2000 other things on CD.
RM Mentock
>
> RM Mentock <men...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> : That is tough to be an uncle to Jethro, and cousin to Jethro's
> : mother--but what if Jed's half-brother (different name, no
> : blood relationship) married Jed's blood-cousin Pearl? Jed
> : would be both second cousin and half-uncle to Jethro. Hmm,
> : that sounds familiar.
>
> Yes! that would work. Jed's half brother would be a Bodine, and
> they would have a common mother. But we still have to work in
> how Granny is Jethro's great aunt. If Jed's mother was Granny's
> sister that would work, but then wouldn't he call her "aunt"?
> So it must be that Granny's sister is Pearl's mother. That
> would make Pearl's maiden name Clampett.
I don't think Pearl's maiden name would have to be Clampett--
Granny is Jed's mother-in-law, not mother, right?
Razz
In one, Jethro is NOT related to Granny or Ellie Mae, but has been 'adopted'
so to speak. Taken literally, Jed and Pearl have the same grandparents,
making them cousins (first). Jed is only figuratively Jethro's uncle -
actually he is a second cousin, or first cousin once removed, hoewever you
figure it.
Alternatively, Pearl is NOT specifically Jed's cousin, nor is Jed Jethro's
Uncle.
Pearl may be the niece of Granny, making her the cousin of ? (Jed's wife,
who is Granny's daughter and Ellie's mother). Thus Pearl is only Jeds cousin
by marriage.
This seems most likely to me. You have to understand the context of "Uncle"
and "Cousin". They are not literal the way you probably understand them to
be, as very clearly defined blood relationships
In the large, extended families of the Indian reservation where I grew up,
"cousin" means any distant relative, whether through blood or marriage Even
my Dad's, Brother's, Wife's, Sister's, Husband's Son would be my "cousin".
Likewise, the Sister in the above example would be my "Auntie" (or "cousin",
depending on her/my age/social relationship.)
So, in the extended family relationship which appears to be the case with
the "Beverly Hillbillies," Jethro is not *really* closely related to the
others, but *is* as a part of their family group.
I know this might not make sense, but I deal with it all the time when I
introduce my "cousins."
--
Razz
"Cry Havoc! and let slip the Dogs of War!"
- Julius Caesar - William Shakespeare
"Paul Reiser" <le...@mtolympus.ari.net> wrote in message
news:Eetk4.55063$Lf2.1...@news6.giganews.com...
> [ This is a repost of the following
]
> [ From: Paul Reiser
]
> [ Subject: Beverly Hillbilly
]
> [ Newsgroups:
]
> [ Message-ID:
.148...@news5.giganews.com> ]
>
> I've been trying to figure out the relationships between the 5
> characters on the Beverly Hillbillies (Jed, Ellie May, Granny,
> Jethro, and Pearl) with the following facts or assumptions:
>
> 1. No incest - people who are closer than 2nd cousins don't have
> children (ok, no wise remarks about hillbillies)
>
> 2. Granny is Ellie May's grandmother
>
> 3. Jed Clampett is Ellie May's father, and granny is his mother-in-law
>
> 4. Jethro is Granny's grand-nephew (This was stated by Granny
> in an episode)
>
> 5. Pearl is Jethro's mother
>
> 6. Jethro's last name is Bodine
>
> 7. Ellie May and Jethro having children would be incest.
>
> 8. Pearl is Jethro's cousin (I think - he calls her "cousin Pearl"
> but then Ellie May calls her pet chimp "cousin Bessie", so it
> might be a generic term, like "Granny" is.)
>
Mike Williams
So, what are the incest rules that apply in this case?
7. Ellie May and Jethro having children would be incest.
The Church of England only bars a man from marrying the following
relations.
A man may not marry his:
Mother
Daughter
Father's mother
Mother's mother
Son's daughter
Daughter's daughter
Sister
Father's daughter
Mother's daughter
Father's wife
Son's wife
Father's father's wife
Mother's father's wife
Wife's father's mother
Wife's mother's mother
Wife's son's daughter
Wife's daughter's daughter
Son's son's wife
Daughter's son's wife
Father's sister
Mother's sister
Brother's daughter
Sister's daughter
--
Mike Williams + #
Gentleman of Leisure
Peter van der Linden
My belief is that the "incest rule" was not mentioned on the
tv program, and was not in fact part of the "show lore".
My diagram explained how things were on the tv program.
If someone throws some extra restrictions or conditions in,
hey - they're on their own there. [ <-- note rare correct use
of the three kinds of "there"]
Paul Reiser
To RM Mentock:
Yes, you're right, I jumped the gun there, Pearl's father could be
Granny's brother in which case Pearl's maiden name would be Moses
(assuming Granny's married name is Moses) and Pearl's mother would
then be a Clampett. That would make sure that Jed and Pearl were
cousins while Granny was Jethro's great aunt.
I have another scenario: A Mr. Bodine first marries Granny's sister
and they have a son who marries Pearl, who then have Jethro. Mr.
Bodine then marries Granny (because her sister died, or they
divorced or whatever) and they have a daughter whom Pearl's cousin
Jed marries, and they have Ellie May. Jethro and Ellie May are
half-cousins (too close to have kids) and Jed is Jethro's half-uncle
by marriage, and Granny is Jethro's great aunt. But its no better
than your original one.
To Razz:
Some things are very certain. I'm REAL sure that Granny is Jed's
mother-in-law and Ellie May is Jed's daughter. I've been studying
the Nick-at-Night Beverly Hillbillies Marathon, and that was just
stated explicitly by Granny last night. (Here's where I click the
ball bearings like Humphry Bogart on Caine Mutiny)
You sound like an expert in the meaning of "cousin". I kind of
figured it was a pretty generic usage when I found that Ellie May
called her pet chimp "cousin Bessie"
To Peter van der Linden:
The problem with the genealogy you drew is that Granny is not
shown as Jethro's great Aunt. I am REAL sure that Jethro is
Grannys grand-nephew, because I heard her say that on an episode
the other night.
I am real interested that it was explained in the first episode
that Jethro just calls Jed "uncle Jed" because I have already
proved WITH GEOMETRIC LOGIC (click, click) that Jed cannot be
Jethro's uncle by blood or marriage.
As far as the incest rules are concerned, I just made those
up as a constraint on the problem, because if incest is allowed,
then there's nothing interesting about the whole thing.
To Mike Williams:
I sort of layed out the assumptions on the first thread, but not
very explicitly (also I made a mistake and said Jethro was Pearls
cousin when I meant Jed was Pearl's cousin). The incest assumption
was that people closer than second cousins can't have children.
The church of England rules that you gave are not good for this
problem because it doesn't mention a taboo against cousins or
half-cousins which would make it possible for Ellie May and Jethro
to be more than friends, which is.... well, it makes for a less
interesting puzzle.
I'm not so much presenting a puzzle here as wondering if a neat
one could be built. I don't have all the clues from the series,
but I have some, while recovering from the flu and watching the
BH marathon, I got the feeling there was a puzzle here. (maybe it
was just the fever, I don't know)
Anyway here are the conditions: (* means its certain and comes
from the series)
1. No incest - people who are closer than 2nd cousins don't have
children
*2. Granny is Ellie May's grandmother
*3. Jed Clampett is Ellie May's father, and Granny is his
mother-in-law
*4. Jethro is Granny's grand-nephew
*5. Pearl is Jethro's mother
*6. Jethro's last name is Bodine
7. Ellie May and Jethro having children would be incest.
8. Pearl is Jed's cousin (I think - he calls her "cousin Pearl"
but then Ellie May calls her pet chimp "cousin Bessie", so it
might be a generic term, like "Granny" is.)
9. Granny's name is Daisy May Moses, but I don't know if that is
a married name or maiden name.
Paul Reiser
Matthew T. Russotto
Mike Williams <mi...@econym.demon.co.uk> wrote:
}So, what are the incest rules that apply in this case?
For TV hillbillies? You've got to be kidding.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Paul Reiser
>Jethro and Elly having children would be incest) come from? Surely
>such an indelicate subject was never broached on the air.
Thats true, I never heard that, but I did hear them described as
"cousins", whatever that means. Also, they never treat each other
as if there was any possibility of romantic interest past, present
or future, so thats where I got the idea. It was never broached on
the air why they acted more like brother and sister than potential
mates.
Also, there's two problems here (in my mind anyway). One is: is the
question of their relationships a puzzle that was part of the series
with clues being dropped here and there in different episodes?
Two is: if not, can we design an interesting puzzle using the stated
relationships from the series and any further ones that we make up?
Thats the reason for the "no incest" requirement - if incest is ok,
then theres nothing interesting going on. Any relationship can be
explained. So when it comes to relaxing #7, the two problems above
make me ask two questions - was it stated in the series? and
does it make things more or less "interesting"? The first is,
like you said, probably "no". The second, I dont know, maybe,
I have to think about it.
> : Now as long as we're on Hillbillies trivia, I have another
> : question for you. Obviously, Max Baer Jr. himself played the
> : part of Jethrine on camera. But whose uncredited voice was
> : dubbed in for Jethrine?
>
> Oh, &*%$#%#, I used to know that, its's somebody famous. I can't
> remember, who was it?
Instead of my simply revealing the answer, how about a hint? Think
of someone who had an "in" with the producer.
I didn't know the producer so that didn't help. I cheated and went
to http://www.pcperspectives.com/hillbillies/hillbill.html and found out
it was Linda Kaye Henning. I never would have guessed that. It's a pretty
neat site and they have Max Baer's assistant Terry Behrens is sort of
an advisor to the site, and I emailed the guy who runs the page and
asked him to ask Mr. Behrens if he could give any insight. Maybe
maybe not.
Paul Reiser
Rich Grise
>
> >Then throw out assumption #7! :-) Seriously, where does #7 (that
> >Jethro and Elly having children would be incest) come from? Surely
> >such an indelicate subject was never broached on the air.
>
> Thats true, I never heard that, but I did hear them described as
> "cousins", whatever that means.
Well, Jed was Jethro's uncle, Ellie Mae called Jed "Paw," and Jethro
called Ellie Mae's "Aint Pearl" "Maw," so I'd reckon Jed and Pearl
were brother and sister, making Jethro and Ellie Mae cousins.
Y'all come back now, hear?
Rich
parmen...@gmail.com
As stated:
-Pearl is Jethro's mother.
And
-Pearl is Jethro's cousin.
How is that so...
Richard Heathfield
removed, but a cousin nonetheless. Since Jethro is Dave's child, and
since Dave is Pearl's cousin, the cousin relationship continues in
Jethro. The tightest way this can happen in normal circumstances is
(where M=male and F=female):
AM marries AF and they have children BM and CF (say).
BM marries BF and they have a daughter Pearl.
CF marries CM and they have a son DM (Dave, in my example above).
DM marries Pearl and they have a son, Jethro.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Shehu Dikko
> How can Pearl be a cousin and a mother to the same person... As stated:
> And
> -Pearl is Jethro's cousin.
> How is that so...
|
________________________
| |
Dave Pat
| |
Jane John
| |
Alan ========= Perl
|
Jethro
|
Mark
Rachel and Tom are wife and husband.
Dave and Pat are brother and sister.
Jane and John are first cousins.
Alan and Perl are second cousins as well as husband and wife.
Perl is Jethro's mother, obviously.
Perl is also obviously Jethro's second cousin once-removed.
The child of parents that are cousins is always the cousin of his
parents. Jethro's son Mark is Perl's grandson as well as
her second cousin twice-removed.
regards,
s h e h u
Peter Smyth
Peter Smyth
Mark Brader
> The tightest way this can happen in normal circumstances is....
When it comes to incest, what circumstances are "normal" depend very
much on one's location. So, too, does whether unmarried people have
children together.
Peter Smyth, in another response, suggested that "Pearl marries her
uncle". I suggest that the simplest solution is "Pearl had sex with
her uncle".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "True excitement lies in doing
m...@vex.net | 'sdb /unix /dev/kmem'" -- Pontus Hedman
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Richard Heathfield
> Richard Heathfield:
>> The tightest way this can happen in normal circumstances is....
>
> When it comes to incest,
relationships are not considered incestuous (that is, they do not breach
the law against incest) but, as you say, this varies greatly depending
on location. On reflection, by "normal" I seem to have meant "wouldn't
make my sainted grandmother turn in her grave", or something along those
lines.
Shehu Dikko
>> Richard Heathfield:
>>> The tightest way this can happen in normal circumstances is...
I had supposed that by "tightest way" you meant the closest possible
relationship so that your offered solution of a first cousin
once-removed was closer than the more likely second cousin
twice-removed I showed. Cousin is too vague a term: the broader the
definition, the greater the likelihood. I had opted for likelihood.
Having a child with her uncle, that is to say the brother of her
father or mother is obviously closer that either of those unions of
cousins since it would result in a son who is her direct cousin, not a
cousin who is one or two generations removed. But even here there are
degrees of closeness. Having a child with the *full* brother of her
father or mother is the tightest way.
Richard Heathfield
> * Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> [2016-01-26]:
>> On 26/01/16 21:11, Mark Brader wrote:
>>> Richard Heathfield:
>>>> The tightest way this can happen in normal circumstances is...
>>> When it comes to incest,
>> Hmmm, I hadn't thought of it in those terms.....
>
> I had supposed that by "tightest way" you meant the closest possible
> relationship so that your offered solution of a first cousin
> once-removed was closer than the more likely second cousin
> twice-removed I showed.
newsfeed, so I wasn't directly trying to "beat" the relationship you
showed. I was certainly going for the closest relationship I could, but
conformance with UK law was an implicit assumption (that is, one that it
didn't occur to me to think about). Apart from that, I was thinking in
mathematical terms (there exists a graph with nodes that can be
connected in these ways - find a graph expressing such-and-such a node
relationship /and/ such-and-such a node relationship between the same
two nodes).
Shehu Dikko
>> Richard Heathfield:
>>> The tightest way this can happen in normal circumstances is...
I had supposed that by "tightest way" you meant the closest possible
relationship so that your offered solution of a first cousin
once-removed was closer than the more likely second cousin
linda....@gmail.com
Kerr Mudd-John
> Where was Granny from?
I give up. The Ramtops? PS you may have not checked on the date; most
google users seem to not notice such details, or quote relevant stuff.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
gerson
> "Kerr Mudd-John" wrote in message news:op.ylk3w...@dell3100.dlink.com...
pagaba...@gmail.com
> [ This is a repost of the following article: ]
> [ From: Paul Reiser <le...@mtolympus.ari.net> ]
> [ Subject: Beverly Hillbilly Genealogy ]
> [ Newsgroups: rec.games.trivia ]
> [ Message-ID: <kJpk4.71937$905.1...@news5.giganews.com> ]
>
> characters on the Beverly Hillbillies (Jed, Ellie May, Granny,
> Jethro, and Pearl) with the following facts or assumptions:
>
>
>
>
> 4. Jethro is Granny's grand-nephew (This was stated by Granny
> in an episode)
>
>
>
> 7. Ellie May and Jethro having children would be incest.
>
> might be a generic term, like "Granny" is.)
>
> 9. Granny's name is Daisy May Moses, but I don't know if that is
> a married name or maiden name.
>
> Jethro's fathers brother, Jethro and Jed would have the same last
> name and they dont. If Jed was Jethro's Mother's brother, he wouldn't
> call her (his sister) "cousin Pearl".
>
> Jed is NOT an uncle by marriage either - if he were, he would be
> married to Jethro's aunt, who is Grannys daughter, which would make
> Granny Jethro's grandmother, which he is not.
>
> If anybody has any ideas on this, or if I have any facts wrong, I
> would be glad to hear it.
>
> Paul Reiser
Whether Pearl was sister or cousin to Elly's Ma is not spelled out. In context of the story line she is usually considered blood near kin---so Elly's aunt. But since Granny is Jethro's Great Aunt that is unlikely. Elly never referred to Pear as "Aunt Pearl" which would be her mother's sister. It would seem that the connection betwixt the Clampetts and the Bodines go back two generations.
So Jed is a fifth or sixth cousin to Jethro. Something like that. Daisy was reared in Tennessee. It is not clear where "BugTussle" was. But only Granny was that concerned about the Confederacy. Matching as best one can with a real life map it seems the Clampetts lived in Arkansas.That would make them Razorbacks. Only Daisy Mae would be a legitimate HillBilly (term for Appalachian)