Enterprise versus Klingons.
Carl G.
were enemies of the Federation).
A Klingon spaceship and the Enterprise are 300,000 kilometers apart, the
engines and weapons on both vessels have been disabled by a mysterious space
probe. The space probe is exactly midway between the two vessels. The
space probe has a conventional light-speed radio transmitter. It contacts
both vessels with the message, "I have collected technical information about
both of your vessels, including secret codes. If you send these secret
codes to the other ship it will make the other vessel instantly
self-destruct. I will send the codes via my radio transmitter to both ships
in exactly one hour.". Captain Kirk asks his crew for suggestions.
Lieutenant Uhura suggests, "The codes are being sent via conventional
light-speed communications. If we set up a relay to immediately send the
destruct code to the Klingon vessel by sub-space we can blow up the Klingon
vessel before it has a chance to send the code to us.".
Kirk responds, "Unfortunately, the space probe is exactly midway between our
two vessels, and if I know Klingons, they will try exactly the same thing.
They will get the code the same time we do, send the code signal, and we
will be blown up also. What we need is a way to receive the signal before
the Klingons do, then we can use the sub-space transmitter to out-run the
light-speed signal and blow up the Klingon ship before they have a chance to
send the code. What we need is a method to move towards the signal so that
we can get the code first".
Mr. Spock offers, "May I suggest the following? Since sub-space
communications travels much faster than light, all we need is a small
fraction of a second advantage. I suggest that we set up the automatic
relay as Uhura suggested. Then we should have all the crew enter the escape
pods and launch the escape pods in a direction away from the Klingon vessel.
Not only will this safeguard the crew, but from the point of view of the
crew inside the pods, the Enterprise will be moving into the space probe's
signal, and the Klingon vessel away. Since the radio transmission always
travels the same velocity (the speed of light), the Enterprise will receive
the signal a fraction of a second before the Klingon vessel. Then the
sub-space transmission will out-run the light-speed signal heading towards
the Klingon vessel and blow it up before they have a chance to relay the
code signal back to the Enterprise.".
After considering all other suggestions, Captain Kirk decides to go with Mr.
Spock's recommendation. They launch the crew in escape pods in a direction
away from the Klingon vessel. In their new coordinate system, the
Enterprise receives the signal slightly before the Klingon ship does, and
the sub-space transmission triggers the self-destruct on the Klingon vessel
before it can relay the signal to the Enterprise. The crew then returns to
the Enterprise safe and sound. Interestingly enough, the Klingon's used
exactly the same strategy, so that from the point of view of their crew
members (in escape pods heading away from the Enterprise), they saw the
Enterprise destroyed. How could both points of view be correct?
Carl G.
Jenny Richard
It was a trick by the weird space probe: it projected holograms of each ship at
the other (In other words, the Enterprise saw a hologram of the Klingon ship,
and vice versa). The space probe was probably running a psychological experiment
to see if the two ships would work together or try to destroy the other first.
This probably isn't correct, but it sounds cool :)
Jenny
--
Who said I had to make any sense?
Jeff Pack
> How could both points of view be correct?
Because the screenwriter wrote it that way. Because Star Trek is not real
life or real physics. Honestly, when you introduce concepts like
instantaneous (whatever that means) information transfer to relativity,
you have no right to expect your conclusions to make sense.
Jeff
George Weinberg
How could both points of view be correct?
>
Obviously they can't. The puzzle simply reveals the well-know result
that it's only possible to talk of the past and future when travel is
rstricted to time-like speeds. A signal going faster than light in
any reference frame is going back in time in other reference frames.
But Spock's suggestion is obvious nonsense, even if we allow for such
impossible things as faster than light signals. If you do the
relativistic transformations on the velocities of the subspace signals
and consider the fact that, in the escape pod's point of view, the
enerprise is also moving towards the signal to destruct and
the kilgon vessel is moving away from it, you will find that
the ships are still destroyed simultaneously in any reference frame.
George
Jan Merolant
Carl G. heeft geschreven in bericht <71fm9h$gq7$2...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
>(Note: This (rather long) story/puzzle is based on a time when the Klingons
>were enemies of the Federation).
>After considering all other suggestions, Captain Kirk decides to go with
>Mr. Spock's recommendation. They launch the crew in escape pods in
>a direction away from the Klingon vessel. In their new coordinate system,
>the Enterprise receives the signal slightly before the Klingon ship does,
>and the sub-space transmission triggers the self-destruct on the Klingon
>vessel before it can relay the signal to the Enterprise. The crew then
>returns to the Enterprise safe and sound. Interestingly enough, the
>Klingon's used exactly the same strategy, so that from the point of view
>of their crew members (in escape pods heading away from the
>Enterprise), they saw the Enterprise destroyed. How could both points
>of view be correct?
>Carl G.
From the Enterprise crew's frame of reference, the events seem to take place
as they observe them. But from the Klingons' frame of reference, the events
also seem to take place as they observe them. Perhaps this relative
manoeuvre placed them into one of Star Trek's famous parallel universes. As
Einstein would say: "It's all relative, man."
E.g. From you point of view my reply seems pretty short, but from my point
of view it is almost as long as your question.
Jan
Jan Merolant
>Carl G. heeft geschreven in bericht
<71fm9h$gq7$2...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
>>(Note: This (rather long) story/puzzle is based on a time when the
Klingons
>>were enemies of the Federation).
>Snipped story
>
>>After considering all other suggestions, Captain Kirk decides to go with
>>Mr. Spock's recommendation. They launch the crew in escape pods in
>>a direction away from the Klingon vessel. In their new coordinate system,
>>the Enterprise receives the signal slightly before the Klingon ship does,
>>and the sub-space transmission triggers the self-destruct on the Klingon
>>vessel before it can relay the signal to the Enterprise. The crew then
>>returns to the Enterprise safe and sound. Interestingly enough, the
>>Klingon's used exactly the same strategy, so that from the point of view
>>of their crew members (in escape pods heading away from the
>>Enterprise), they saw the Enterprise destroyed. How could both points
>>of view be correct?
>>Carl G.
From the Enterprise crew's frame of reference, the events seem to take place
as they observe them. But from the Klingons' frame of reference, the events
also seem to take place as they observe them.
To the Enterprise crew, moving away from the Klingons, it appears that the
Klingon clock is running slower than theirs (general relativity), and so
they receive the alien signal first and can respond first. Vice versa for
the Klingons.
Molly Brow
Carl G. wrote in message <71fm9h$gq7$2...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
>After considering all other suggestions, Captain Kirk decides to go with
Mr.
>Spock's recommendation. They launch the crew in escape pods in a
direction
>away from the Klingon vessel. In their new coordinate system, the
>Enterprise receives the signal slightly before the Klingon ship does, and
>the sub-space transmission triggers the self-destruct on the Klingon vessel
>before it can relay the signal to the Enterprise. The crew then returns
to
>the Enterprise safe and sound. Interestingly enough, the Klingon's used
>exactly the same strategy, so that from the point of view of their crew
>members (in escape pods heading away from the Enterprise), they saw the
>Enterprise destroyed. How could both points of view be correct?
>
>Carl G.
After reading this, the only solution that would seem at all practical
without going overboard is to assume that when launching the escape pods
away from the probe they cause an action-reaction thing with the Enterprise.
This would cause the Enterprise, which has much higher mass to move slightly
towards the probe and relay the message a little earlier.
I wonder about this solution as I can't beleive Spock would present such a
stupid theory when this simpler one is much more logical... ;-)
M
Carl G.
Carl G.
Molly Brow wrote in message <71njpp$8ju$1...@nntp1.uunet.ca>...
...
>After reading this, the only solution that would seem at all practical
>without going overboard is to assume that when launching the escape pods
>away from the probe they cause an action-reaction thing with the
Enterprise.
>This would cause the Enterprise, which has much higher mass to move
slightly
>towards the probe and relay the message a little earlier.
>
>I wonder about this solution as I can't believe Spock would present such a
>stupid theory when this simpler one is much more logical... ;-)
>
>M
I don't think this "puzzle" worked out as well as I hoped. The recent
experiments in the news about duplicating quantum states of a laser beam is
what prompted me to write this "puzzle". My original intent was to present
an illustration of how faster-than-light communication could lead to an
irreconcilable paradox (without getting into a lot of mathematics or
elaborate thought experiments). I used the Star Trek universe because it is
one that many people seem to think may actually be possible in the far
future. If faster-than-light communications (like "sub-space"
communications) were possible, it would lead to situations where two
observers could see two entirely different universes unfold, depending on
their reference frames. In my example, I wanted to make the difference very
obvious by having only the Enterprise blow up in one reference frame and
only the Klingon vessel in another. Without faster-than-light
communications, both ships would have been destroyed in all reference frames
and no paradox would occur. I had hoped that my example would help some
people realize the issues that would be raised by signals traveling faster
than light.
Thank you,
Carl G.
Rich Grise
don't use an apostrophe for pluralizing, except with acronyms and
letters
and s--t.) used
> exactly the same strategy, so that from the point of view of their crew
> members (in escape pods heading away from the Enterprise), they saw the
> Enterprise destroyed. How could both points of view be correct?
>
> Carl G.
Well, obviously, by quantum conservation of causality.
Schroedinger's cat is dead. Nobody's fed, watered, or toileted the damn
thing in over 50 years!
--
Rich Grise
rich...@entheosengineering.com
(No need to putz around with my e-mail - I have a "DELETE" button!)
Horse Head
Carl G. <cgi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>After considering all other suggestions, Captain Kirk decides to go with Mr.
>Spock's recommendation. They launch the crew in escape pods in a direction
>away from the Klingon vessel. In their new coordinate system, the
>Enterprise receives the signal slightly before the Klingon ship does, and
>the sub-space transmission triggers the self-destruct on the Klingon vessel
>before it can relay the signal to the Enterprise. The crew then returns to
>exactly the same strategy, so that from the point of view of their crew
>members (in escape pods heading away from the Enterprise), they saw the
>Enterprise destroyed. How could both points of view be correct?
It is a well known fact that while one's own sub-space signals travel at
a constant speed (>C), other people's signals do not; sometimes they
travel more slowly (though never as slowly as light), sometimes they
actually arrive before they are sent. Also, sometimes a signal doesn't
arrive at all, and sometimes a signal arrives that has no identifiable
source (what I like to call a "phanton"). It is important that the whole
crew abandon ship, because there is only a 50% chance that the
Enterprise will survive. The other 50% is that the Klingons' sub-space
signal will arrive and destroy the Enterprise before either ship
receives the radio transmission. There is an independent 50-50 chance
that the Klingon ship will survive. That means that there is a 25%
chance that both ships will survive (because neither signal arrives) and
a 25% chance that both ships will be destroyed by phantons before either
ship receives the radio transmission. (It is strange that the radio
transmission is needed at all in the last case.)
A more bold plan would be to relay the message to a squadron of rapidly
maneuvering ships, who would relay the message back and forth (and back
in time) to the first appearance of the Klingon ship, where it would be
really useful. Such a network could extend all the way back to the
invention of sub-space communication, but it would not be very reliable:
most of it's reception would be a garbled mixture of phantons,
especially if it were used carelessly.
Horse Head
Key fingerprint = 11 74 46 17 CA 8A C1 1B B2 A9 6B 83 54 B5 D7 37
Molly Brow
Carl G. wrote in message <71nqc3$usk$1...@camel0.mindspring.com>...
>An explanation of what prompted me to post this "puzzle" is given below.
>experiments in the news about duplicating quantum states of a laser beam is
>what prompted me to write this "puzzle". My original intent was to present
>an illustration of how faster-than-light communication could lead to an
>irreconcilable paradox (without getting into a lot of mathematics or
>elaborate thought experiments). I used the Star Trek universe because it
is
The puzzle may not have worked out as well as you hoped, but I think that
has to do with peoples perceptions on faster-than-light communication. I
would assume faster-than-light communication would simply reduce the time
required to send a message to below that of a speed of light message. I
realize there are theories stemming from Einstine (sp?) where the message is
supposed to get there before it is actually sent, which could easily cause a
paradox. (How does one send a message to themselves if it gets there before
they send it?)
I came to the conclusion a while ago that the simpliest solution is probably
the correct one (Occums's Razor) and that paradoxes while interesting will
probably work themselves out...
M