Dropping water level
Carl G.
amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
1. Is there a substance that can be added to a liquid that would LOWER the
level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
2. Are there two liquids that can be mixed together, where the resulting
mixture would have less volume than the sum of the original volumes?
I don't have an answer in mind, but I am curious if anyone knows of
substances that can be used that would show a significant effect (i.e., more
than the effect of a simple lowering of temperature).
Thank you,
Carl G.
Daniel Hildebrandt
> 1. Is there a substance that can be added to a liquid that would LOWER the
> level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
I can't think of anything that would, but I have a feeling that there is.
> 2. Are there two liquids that can be mixed together, where the resulting
> mixture would have less volume than the sum of the original volumes?
Yes. Any two liquids that "dissolve" into one another will result in a solution
that has a lesser volume than the sum of the two.
--
Daniel Hildebrandt
"There's no point in acting all surprised about it. All the planning
charts and demolition orders have been on display in your local
planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years,
so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it's
far too late to start making a fuss about it now."
Virgil Hancher
<cgi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 2. Are there two liquids that can be mixed together, where the resulting
> mixture would have less volume than the sum of the original volumes?
There used to be a standard freshman chemistry demonstration in which a
liter of water and a liter of pure alcohol are mixed ( carefully, as the
process is strongly exothermic) to give visibly less than 2 liters of
mixture.
Eytan Zweig
Carl G. wrote in message <7447pe$lio$1...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>A common science experiment is to fill a measuring vessel with a certain
>amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
>the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
>The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
>This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
>dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
>
>level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
>
Well, this is obviously cheating, but any substance that is very hot when
dropped into the liquid will cause the liquid to heat and partially
evaporate while it is being dissolved, and may very well end up with a lower
level of liquid.
As to a substance that really has that property, I haven't the slightest
idea.
Eytan
Matthew T. Russotto
}amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
}the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
}The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
}This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
}dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
}
}1. Is there a substance that can be added to a liquid that would LOWER the
}level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
Probably, but I don't know of an example.
}2. Are there two liquids that can be mixed together, where the resulting
}mixture would have less volume than the sum of the original volumes?
Yes, water and alcohol make one common classroom example.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
barryp...@my-dejanews.com
> 2. Are there two liquids that can be mixed together, where the resulting
> mixture would have less volume than the sum of the original volumes?
>
Water and alcohol will do this, mainly because of the difference in the size
of their molocules. If I remember correctly from my high school chemistry
class -- during the Grant administration, I think -- the loss of volume is
about 3 percent if you start with equal volumes. --------------- Barry Paul
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ben Holness
>level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
>
This is cheating again (like adding anything that is very hot), but adding a
very absorbent material, such as a sponge will lower the level of the
_liquid_
We have a super-absorbent sponge, called a "slurpex", that is approx. 8cm x
12cm x 3cm and can hold 1 pint of water...
Ben
Martin
>amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
>the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
>The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
>This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
>dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
>
>level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
Black holes - but they're difficult to get hold of at present - and dificult
to store too.
(sorry) - I suppose there might be some chemicals, but I don't know of any.
>
>2. Are there two liquids that can be mixed together, where the resulting
>mixture would have less volume than the sum of the original volumes?
You can use regular car antifreeze (I think it's ethylene glycol) and water.
Eytan Zweig
Ben Holness wrote in message <745r9d$j...@bmdhh222.europe.nortel.com>...
>>level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
>>
>
a
>very absorbent material, such as a sponge will lower the level of the
>_liquid_
>
>We have a super-absorbent sponge, called a "slurpex", that is approx. 8cm x
>12cm x 3cm and can hold 1 pint of water...
Yes, but unless my very meager knowledge of physics is wrong, an absorbent
material can't simultaneously absorve liquid and disolve into it, and
therefore that doesn't answer the question.
Eytan
Patrick Hamlyn
>A common science experiment is to fill a measuring vessel with a certain
>amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
>the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
>The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
>This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
>dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
I would question whether the level 'remains about the same'. I agree that the
resulting volume will be less than the sum of the volumes, but I believe that
the level would go up significantly too. Does anyone actually have the numbers
for, say 1 litre of water plus 200ml of salt? By 200ml of salt, I mean the
amount of salt that would cause an increase in volume of 200ml whan added to a
liquid in which it does not dissolve.
A thought experiment to support my point:
Add the salt in such a way that most of it sits undissolved on the bottom. The
level should be near 1200ml. Now do you expect me to believe that the level will
drop to almost 1 litre as the salt dissolves? I never noticed this with my
coffee, and I use a *lot* of sugar.
Martin Moore
it?
However, if the liquid were to be absorbed in a substance, more like it.
Carl G. wrote in message <7447pe$lio$1...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>A common science experiment is to fill a measuring vessel with a certain
>amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
>the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
>The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
>This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
>dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
>
>1. Is there a substance that can be added to a liquid that would LOWER the
>level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
>
>2. Are there two liquids that can be mixed together, where the resulting
>mixture would have less volume than the sum of the original volumes?
David K. Lewis
> >
> >1. Is there a substance that can be added to a liquid that would LOWER the
> >level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
Hmm, don't know, but you can do the opposite (i.e., remove something from the
water and make the level rise).
Dave.
Matthew Daly
said:
>
>Carl G. wrote in message <7447pe$lio$1...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>>A common science experiment is to fill a measuring vessel with a certain
>>amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
>>the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
>>The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
>>This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
>>dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
>>
>>1. Is there a substance that can be added to a liquid that would LOWER the
>>level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
>
>Well, this is obviously cheating, but any substance that is very hot when
>dropped into the liquid will cause the liquid to heat and partially
>evaporate while it is being dissolved, and may very well end up with a lower
>level of liquid.
Conversely, if you add something cold to the water, then the liquid will
cool and contract, lowering its level. That seems more fair than having
liquid evaporate, although I presume it's still not the effect that Carl
is looking for.
-Matthew
---
Matthew Daly mwd...@pobox.com http://www.frontiernet.net/~mwdaly/
Though he is a person to whom things do not happen, perhaps they
may when he is on the other side. - E. Gorey
mumford
>A common science experiment is to fill a measuring vessel with a certain
>amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
>the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
>The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
>This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
>dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
>
>1. Is there a substance that can be added to a liquid that would LOWER the
>level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
Others have stated yes or probably, but not given an example or a reason.
I don't think your problem is clear enough.
Are we avoiding trick answers like putting a soluable baloon into the water?
The liquid level would rise while the baloon is in, but then drop as the
baloon disolved and the air inside floated away.
Are we also avoiding chemical reactions: if I put something in liquid that
reacts with the liquid & produces two substances, one that disolves in the
remaining liquid, and the other a gas that dissipates.
If we are avoiding these, then I say no the liquid level would not drop.
The molecules in the liquid are as close as they are going to get under
normal pressures/temperatures (there's very little variation while still
in liquid form under even extreme pressures & temperatures). Adding
something to the liquid (that does not react with the liquid) will not
change this basic property.
--
Glenn Lamb - mum...@netcom.com. Finger for my PGP Key.
Email to me must have my address in either the To: or Cc: field. All other
mail will be bounced automatically as spam.
PGPprint = E3 0F DE CC 94 72 D1 1A 2D 2E A9 08 6B A0 CD 82
Greg
>>We have a super-absorbent sponge, called a "slurpex", that is approx. 8cm x
>>12cm x 3cm and can hold 1 pint of water...
No, it can't. At least not while remaining that size. That's 288
cc's, and if my metric conversions aren't failing me, a pint is about
473 cc's.
Were you mis-estimating the size of the sponge, or were you just
checking to see if anyone was paying attention? (Or did you mean a
cup of water?)
Gerry Quinn
=>In article <744mg2$shh$1...@goethe.tau.ac.il>, "Eytan Zweig"
=> <eyt...@spinoza.tau.ac.il> writes:
=>> >
=>> >1. Is there a substance that can be added to a liquid that would LOWER the
=>> >level of the liquid as it is dissolved?
=>
=>Hmm, don't know, but you can do the opposite (i.e., remove something from the
=>water and make the level rise).
=>
I suspect the answer is probably yes. Water molecules form an
unusually loose structure, owing to their strong hydrogen bonding. A
dense hydrophilic macromolecular material might induce water
molecules to pack more efficiently around it. (I believe cotton wool
can be added to water with little or no change in volume - the
question is how to increase this effect.)
On the other hand the question specified dissolution (but not water).
I added a followup to sci.materials - hopefully somebody there
will know the answer.
- Gerry
----------------------------------------------------------
ger...@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn)
----------------------------------------------------------
Uncle Al
>
> A common science experiment is to fill a measuring vessel with a certain
> amount of water or other liquid. Then a substance like sand is added to
> the water. Since the sand isn't dissolved, the level of the liquid rises.
> The experiment is repeated, but this time a substance like salt is used.
> This time the level of the liquid remains about the same since the salt is
> dissolved. This got me to asking a couple of questions:
>
>
> mixture would have less volume than the sum of the original volumes?
>
> I don't have an answer in mind, but I am curious if anyone knows of
> substances that can be used that would show a significant effect (i.e., more
> than the effect of a simple lowering of temperature).
1) Offhand I'd say try either a*nhydrous* lithium chloride or urea,
and allow to return to ambient temp. Both are extremely souble in water
and cause ordering - the first through coordination, the second through
hydrogen bonding. That ought to aqueeze out a lot of the void spaces
among water molecules and contract the mass overall. You may get
differential contraction with concentration rather than a linear ramp.
And maybe try both together for a synergistic effect - makes for a nice
science project.
Mix 100 ml of anhydrous ethanol with 100 ml of distilled water both at
ambient temp and allow to cool back to ambient temp - volume is about
195 ml. Probably works with ethylene glycol, too.
--
Uncle Al Schwartz
Uncl...@ix.netcom.com ("zero" before @)
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Wei-Hwa Huang
>If we are avoiding these, then I say no the liquid level would not drop.
>The molecules in the liquid are as close as they are going to get under
>normal pressures/temperatures (there's very little variation while still
>in liquid form under even extreme pressures & temperatures). Adding
>something to the liquid (that does not react with the liquid) will not
>change this basic property.
I'll believe this if the liquid was water, but I'm not so sure about
other liquids. It seems conceivable that a liquid has molecule spacing
far apart, whereupon adding something to dissolve in it would bring the
molecules closer together.
It's true for non-liquids -- for example, if I have a large
container of salt, and I add some water, the salt level will drop.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
O*e T*o: "Thre* *our fi*e s*x; se*en *ight *ine, *en!"
Daniel Hildebrandt
> ... then I say no the liquid level would not drop.
> The molecules in the liquid are as close as they are going to get under
> normal pressures/temperatures...
Actually, because of the electrical nature of water, it isn't very close
together. A substance added to the water that attracts the water electrically
will result in a solution that is less (in volume) than the sum of the two.
(e.g. alcohol)
Carl Witthoft
named Daniel Hildebrandt <hi...@pamd.cig.mot.com> may or may not have
claimed:
->mumford wrote:
->
->> ... then I say no the liquid level would not drop.
->> The molecules in the liquid are as close as they are going to get under
->> normal pressures/temperatures...
->
->Actually, because of the electrical nature of water, it isn't very close
->together. A substance added to the water that attracts the water electrically
->will result in a solution that is less (in volume) than the sum of the two.
->(e.g. alcohol)
->
What we really need is some chemical X which causes the following reaction:
X + 2H2O --> H4XO2 , which clearly reduces you from 3 moles to 1.
--
Carl Witthoft c...@world.std.com ca...@aoainc.com http://world.std.com/~cgw
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Carl Witthoft
whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Wei-Hwa Huang) may or may not have claimed:
->
->It's true for non-liquids -- for example, if I have a large
->container of salt, and I add some water, the salt level will drop.
->
Yeah, but that's a packing problem. Try it with a large single crystal of salt.
Gerry Quinn
=>What we really need is some chemical X which causes the following reaction:
=>
=>X + 2H2O --> H4XO2 , which clearly reduces you from 3 moles to 1.
Unfortunately, those Oxygen ions (or negatively charged atoms) are
pretty big, so that won't necessarily help. It would work fine for a
gas!
John & Helen Brown
What we really need is some chemical X which causes the following reaction:
Try cement powder - which might be anhydrous calcium carbonate (but I'm
prepared to admit that I'm wrong) or slaked lime (which might be the same
thing). It doesn't dissolve but it should lower the level pretty well.
John
Jim Hsu
First, set up the container as follows:
Step 1: Freeze some ice to the bottom.
Step 2: Add some water to cover the ice.
As the ice "dissolves" into the water, the level will go down,
because ice is less dense than water (it floats!).
-Jim Hsu
jim...@mit.edu